It’s a wonder the Church still has a voice considering they opposed the abolition of slavery.
And considering they’ve been raping children and covering it up.
You mean the HOMOSEXUAL child abusers?
You really are an uneducated tosser ain’t ya Keith.
@Jock S Trap
To be fair to Keith he is more than an uneducated tosser …
He’s an uneducated alcoholic, demented “ex -gay” tosser …
Yep, he’s also the reason I can’t be that bothered about coming here, until PinkNews sort it out once and for all.
But Jock if you don’t go on the websites you want,the troll wins, that’s what the sad pathetic little looser wants. I just laugh at him most times, but then I realise he’s got mental health problems, so then I feel sorry for him. The best thing is to just ignore him, don’t even thumb him down. Like most trolls, he feeds off the attention, cause he obviously has no freinds, and has nothing better to do than go on a website designed for people he hates – imagine spending your time commenting on the christian institutes website – how sad would that be.
I know and I kick myself every time I resort to responding. I’ve just let rip to him on another thread.
He’s a sad individual who craves attention and if this is the only way he can get it ….
Ummm, actually the Catholic Church was probably the first major Western institution to oppose slavery. Who the hell taught you history.
I think the Catholic churches stance on slavery was patchy. There were some good bishops who stood against it but others very much fought to maintain slavery.
In any regard the historical approach to slavery is largely irrelevant to this issue.
What matters is do the RC church seek to subvert human rights and seek to treat LGBT people as subhuman and treat them with indignity. Do they seek to interfere with UK government democratic processes and responsibilities. Do they seek to prevent human rights being exercised. Do they seek to demonise LGBT people. Do they seek to lie to their congregations and the wider population. Do they seek to control and manipulate. Do they seek to indoctinate their congregations and use them to subvery human rights?
The answer to all these questions is YES … they seek to be inhumane, immoral and irresponsible.
They can try. They will not succeed.
It’s about time the Governments told all churches and other religious groups to keep shut about any proposed changes in civil and legal issues!
Government does not interfere in church matters do they?
They appoint the archbishop of canterbury.
And all other Anglican Bishoprics and similar posts.
So they make the appointments, but do they then interfere with any other aspects of the church?
Its not about bowing to public pressure.
Its about the government doing the right thing to ensure equality and fairness.
The thing the RC church leaders and C4M agitators and militants seem to forget is that the decision is already made – equal marriage will happen – the consultation is about how to introduce it – not if to introduce it.
Judging by earlier polls in the normally right of centre Telegraph and the overwhelming public support in favour of gay marriage in the Question time audience this week, I’m quite happy for the government to follow public pressure.
I suspect the Tablet want the govenment to favour their own biased Catholic funded focus groups. Doesn’t quite amount to the same thing as “public pressure” now does it?
I agree. The results of the Telegraph poll were a surprise having first read the comments posted on the issue, which suggested readers were wholly against the idea, but the poll went completely the other way
I think that by ‘Public pressure’, the church was thinking of the 70% of the public who opposed gay marriage. The 70% of catholics in their own very limited, very biased survey, that is
More posturing by the catholic church who realise that their homophobia and whipping up resentment of Gay people resulting in homophobic attacks and insulting language in the press, will be a backlash for the catholic church in a modern society. Civil Partnerships are not good enough, they are not valid outside the UK, one cannot be buried with a civil partner in consecrated ground, more so the church will not perform a funeral service, either. These are the depths that the catholic and church of england have now stooped to.
Public pressure is meaningless. The public has no skin in the game – most people will not gain anything or lose anything by the passing of a law of marriage equality. So to listen to the public is to subject law abiding tax-paying citizens to irrational animus. This is an issue of the law of the land applying equally to all, and that is all that matters.
Terry Sanderson, the president of the National Secular Society, said if it were true it would mean “very bad news for those of us who value human rights”.
He added: “If the Church manages to overwhelm the Government’s resolve, it will come back emboldened with the other issues that it wishes to see on the legislative agenda – restrictions on abortion, exemptions from human rights and equality legislation – even the complete dismantling of the equality laws.”
Terry is so right and I urge posters to this list to support the National Secular Society which campaigns vigorously against grossly unfair religious privileges.
If you cannot afford to join, readers can sign up for the National Secular Society free weekly newsletter and action alert here:
You can also register for free as a supporter of the British Humanist Association and get onto their news and campaign e-mail list here:
They’ve been deluding themselves for 2000 years, so why stop now?!
The crazy thing is the Catholic church was marrying gay people for centuries, and its only in recent history they have stopped.
Why are the comments here repeating the phrase “public pressure’ as if any such pressure had been forthcoming.
The only “pressure” is coming from the imagination of the article’s author.
These a-holes just love to play word games, to define loving couples as “a militant lobby” or a harmless tweak of the Marriage Act as “redefinition”. The only way these SOBs can play the game is by twisting the rules to their liking: let’s not help them do it, eh?
Have a great weekend, all!
The Catholic Church is simply protecting & defending its own definition of marriage. This Pink News article has taken the article out of context, especially as The Tablet is NOT a typical Catholic journal/paper, as it often has articles & letters challenging the church on long-held practices & beliefs, unlike the ultra right-wing Catholic Herald.
I suggest that Pink News readers read The Tablet’s article for themselves. There are 3 different perspectives from 3 different people, one at least of which you may have already heard of . Link below. When people have read that, then this discussion should restart.
Personally, as a gay Christian, I’m not happy with how both C of E & Catholic church have handled LGBT issues. Top bishops & cardinals don’t listen/act on criticism, however constructive. I won’t wait for either church to approve gay marriages. I’d be past dead by then! I’m happy to have a civil marriage blessed in other christian church.
Personally I don’t care less what the cult of England or the catholic cult thinks.
Civil marriage has nothing to do with any religion after all.
That is the crucial point, time and time again anti equality people cite the bible or their religious beliefs. It’s always useful to keep reminding readers that these are *civil* legal marriages that are proposed. This religious muddying of the waters needs to be rebutted at every opportunity.
Thanks for this. Well worth reading. I don’t really understand any of the ‘spiritual’ mumbo-jumbo but good to see that even some catholics are prepared to speak up in favour of equal marriage.
The main objection to equal marriage appears to be that marriage=fertility=survival of the human race. A futile and wholly inacurate concept. The human race procreated long before religion took control of marriage.
Incidently…as an aside…does anyone know if nuns still take marriage vows to a 2000 year old dead guy? What’s that all about?
The catholic cult is clearly delusional (as well as being a safe haven for decades for child-rapist priests).
The RC Church has always been about power and influence. It’s theocratic dictatorship fears any kind of secular alternative to what it holds as its doctrinal catechisms. It still actually believes that marriage is not about love or equality but for the sole purpose of procreation where a man ‘owns’ a woman. The Bible goes further and condones rape and murder of women (by their ‘husbands’).
The whole ‘traditional’ argument is therefore flawed from the beginning.
They (RCC) also like to claim Human Rights. Actually Article 16 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states that both Men AND Women have the right to marry, it does not state anywhere to whom (or what gender) they should get married to!
The Roman (yes, foreign) Catholic Church will fail. It failed over the repeal of Section 28, Same Sex Adoption, Civil Partnerships, Equal rights and protection legislation for LGB and T people.
They take their orders from a foreign State and want to invade our civil and civilised society
Here is an article with the text of the letter to be read out in RC churches on Sunday and a video of one of the RC Archbishops reading it out.
Appalling prejudice and indoctrination.
Since when does a religious minority get to dictate and bully a government into submission to it’s will? Looking back at the oppressive history of the roman cult including centuries of paedophilia, I’m only saddened that the Emancipation Act was ever passed. Catholicism, a foreign import, should have been banished altogether. If the roman cult is asking for a backlash, it’s going the right way about it. Bring it on. The C of E take note!
I don’t believe for a minute the consultation will be influenced by these hate-rmongers one way or the other. They were ingnored during the CP consultation, they will be ignored once again.
Don’t dignify this group by special status. They are a lobby group – no more and no less. Their internal reasons for any particular point of view are irrelevant to the rest of us. Their voice carries weight because they have a lot of members – but that’s how democracy works. Ultimately human rights will win.
My only hope is the Unitarians, Quakers, Liberal and Reformed Jews will speak out and bring their voice to the consultation loud and clear. The hateful rhetoric coming from the religionists is also an attack on the religious freedom of those denominations supporting us.
“…bow to public pressure…” Am I the only one that finds this extraordinarily scary? Catholics believe in mob rule? Grab your torches and pitchforks! Tyranny by the majority rather than one person is still tyranny.
The Catholic church sees marriage equality as being one of the greatest evils in the world, but they turn a blind eye to the murders caused by dictatorships, wars and racism.
I’d love to hear what the Pope has to say about the gays being executed in the Middle East. Silence is compliance?
If I could get millions of people to believe in spirits and ghosts from 2000 years ago, claim an all powerful deity is speaking to me, then have people throw tons of cash at me, and I get to wear fabulous robes… I could do that gig. But, I’d have to keep the Gay priests; a Pope needs someone to traffic the young boys into the Vatican as “robe attendants”.
If the government were to cave in as The Tablet seems to think, then the Tory Party most certainly can kiss re-election goodbye in 2015 as well as the gay vote. It needs every gay vote it can get if the last general election is anything to go by. Cave in and it will do so at its own peril. Gay voters have long memories. We won’t forget, ever.
Long memories? If that were the case, section 28 should have seen them off forever. I suspect people’s memories are a lot shorter than you give credit.
Well, if the government do cave in, Section 28 will be another reminder, aided and abetted by the roman cult and others. I dont think they’ll want to make that mistake again and they certainly don’t like being reminded of it. Personally, I don’t see how it can do their bidding, now that Scotland is charging ahead. The roman cult is a minority and the C of E is fast becoming one.
I have no idea how any decent person could vote Tory in any case.
I am insulted and angered that bigots are being “consulted” at all when it comes to protection of my rights, freedom and equality.
Precisely, and on this issue, bigoted religious nutters. The arrogance of these people is breath-taking. Government runs a very dangerous course when it allows religious denominations to dictate policy and laws. If anything, this may ignite future debate on the separation of church and state, long overdue, and hopefully, herald the abolition of the House of Lords, a totally anachronistic, undemocratic institution just like the religious denominations. Their constant hateful rhetoric is going to open up a pandora’s box which will fire back on them eventually. They are treading on very dangerous grounds by meddling in the political process. I can’t believe they’re unaware of the implications.
Of course, the churches aren’t actually being consulted about these changes to a civil matter.
They’re just sticking their noses in where they haven’t been invited. Religion needs to stay out of politics.
It’s amazing how this debate over gay marriage is bringing out so much homophobia across the media. Our lives are being discussed as though we were a political football being kicked backwards and forwards between our supporters and detractors. Every possible homophobic attitude- most nothing whatsoever to do with gay marriage are being bandied across newspapers and tv discussion shows.
When Catholics were allowed to re-establish dioceses in Britain in the 19th Century there were anti-popery riots.
Some Catholics seem to forget the implications of popular attitudes for minorities.
Maybe they need to be reminded of it. Many of them are completely ignorant of the Emancipation Act. I doubt if it’s evenmentioned in history classes in church schools. They have no idea what this could unleash if the hierarchy persist in such haterful rhetoric and fomenting intolerance and bigotry.
Let’s see: intelligent, sane people supporting reality and not the illusions of religion. Dare I say, Thank God!
That’s why they need a reminder of the Emancipation Act. I don’t think they’d take too kindly to a referendum curbing their freedom. Their hateful rhetoric will only alienate them as extremists let alone invite anti-catholic sentiment, deservedly so.Bring it on!
It’s about time the consultation was published!!!!!!!!
It’s now March 10th. We’ve had delays in the past and I wll be really pissed off if we get another one.
Many people , unaffected by gay marriage , won’t even respond to the consultation so just having a stats figure asking who approved of it will be meaningless.
We all know the Catholic church for instance and the other orgs like CI etc are well organised in getting their followers to reply to these things and basically the stats figures will only show their views only.
Ordinary Brits won’t even bother with the consultation.
The Telegraph are a bit desperate too:
In fairness, the Telegraph has published a whole range of points of view. The balance probably isn’t for equality,I regret to say, but that voice has at least been heard. That’s what democratic debate is about, no? Truth and equality will win in the end!
That is true they have presented a range of views. It would be good to hear once and for all what the Telegraphs editorial view is – support equality, or support segregations and suppression of human rights … Thats the choice …
I wonder if The Tablet will print this story from today
‘A Catholic paedophile priest who used his “revered” status to wage a campaign of abuse against vulnerable young boys has been sentenced to 22 years in prison.
Alexander Bede Walsh was convicted last month of 21 sexual offences, spanning a period of 18 years’.
Actually, The Tablet DID print the story you mention, yesterday in fact. Here’s the link for people to veryify this.
Perhaps those particular Pink News readers who keep on making convenient generalisations about all Catholics &/or Christians may start to realise that most Christians are NOT brainwashed & have our own individual opinions & beliefs, because although both hierarchies are dictatorial on several matters, they are not all bad. Most of us Christians are disgusted, angry & frustrated with our respected church for not being anywhere as near as truthful, virtuous, disciplined, loving & inspiring as Jesus was. We remain as Christians not out of loyalty towards the hierarchy, but because we believe in Jesus’ values system. Of course, we all fall way short of perfection, whether religious or not. No one can claim they are superior by affiliation to a creed. All religions encourage humility & we need to see much more of that from leaders!
Of course not all Christians are brainwashed and many laity are able to make decisions for themselves on the rights and wrongs of particular “moral” policies eg contraception, equal marriage etc.
However, when the Pope, Cardinal O’Brien, 2 Anglican Archbishops and 2 Catholic Archbishops (along with a myriad of fudamentalist evangelicals disguising themselves as C4M) embark on a campaign of lies, vitriol and edicts requiring their congregations to oppose human rights – then a response that has the same strength as their rhetoric and attempts to maintain a suppression of human rights can only be reasonable and only be expected.
Good comments, Tony.
Another HOMOSEXUAL pedophile. Tut tut on the homosexualites.
He’s using commas now. PN can you please pre block all names with a similar name and using all forms of punctuation in the gaps!
Separation of Church and Sate is a fundamental principle. Religions have no business interfering with civil marriage. Government follows human rights. Religion follows bigotry and hatred.
There is an established Church as part of the state, and the head of state is head of the church, technically. But it is time that Bishops etc were removed from the legislature, and there truly was separation of church and state.
How about an opinion poll or petition on that?
Off-topic, with apologies.
I’m in the US. What does the term “consultation” mean in British government? (I’m not sure we have an equivalent here.)
I’m just a yankee, too, but it can be Googled.
“When government departments change or make policy they listen to your views via a consultation. You can read the consultation paper about what government wants to do or change and then send your thoughts back.”
But, I don’t know what department has this particular consultation.
Check out… http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/PublicConsultations/DG_170463
It appears to be similar to a US Congressional Committee hearing, but much less informal with the public being involved. In the US, the public is rarely invited to see what their Congressman are doing, much less have an opinion… unless you donate more than $1 Million to their election campaign. In the US, citizens are intentionally left in the dark, you have to wait years for anything to get passed, any leaked info is twisted by the media. Once it is passed, then you spend the next 10 years fighting to get it repealed.
Our British cousins are far smarter.
Thanks for the info. (I did google, but the results tended to use the word itself in the definition.)
It means you ask people what they think, but you still go and do whatever you were planning to do anyway, regardless of the outcome of the consultation.
Two examples: The former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone consulted about a western extension of the Congestion Charging area (where vehicles have to pay a daily charge to drive in the area). There was widespread opposition (about 80% IIRC) but he still went ahead regardless. He was thrown out by the electors and the new Mayor scrapped the extension. However, the C-Charge in Central London is now $16 per day (parking extra).
Similarly, Westminster City Council ‘consulted’ about charging up to £4.80 per hour to park on the street between 6pm and midnight during the week. However, they’d already made their minds up and spent £200,000 on signage even before the so-called ‘consultation’ had ended. Fortunately there was a massive outcry and the leader was forced to resign and abandon the policy.
Good examples of when consultations were made and then the initial plans were unaltered … and there are many more …
However, there are some great examples of where consultations have led to a change eg forestry sale, dsicounts on prison sentencing, removing plans to remove duties on social care from local authorities etc ..
Wishful thinking by the UK band of newly trained Vatican propagandists at Catholic Voices.
“It’s all fine and you even get a burial at a cathedral, with all the blessing of the Church, if you don’t say you’re gay”
Interesting angle in the New Statesman opposing the Catholic church:
“With national attention focused on marriage equality and religious opposition, we risk empowering a new queer fascism; and with social inequalities widening at their current rate, that is a truly frightening prospect.”
I’ve seen no evidence for that in the 10 countries where same-sex marriage is legal. It’s nothing more than posturing
Thats exactly why I thought it was an interesting angle!
Also fantastic piece by Chris Bryant in The Independent:
Sounds like that Italian religion needs to be put in its place by British politicians. Our laws are not decided by vatican city.
But the Vatican is a different country…
Trying to impose its will on the UK democratic system ….
I finally read the article in the Tablet. I think the PN article is misleading. The tablet offers 3 points of view, but stops short of openly endorsing equality in any of them. I can’t see anything about expecting the government to bow to “public pressure” . The link is given by Tony D above. Unless there’s another article?
Does anybody actually read this paper?!
Have a listen to this deluded fool from the Catholic Herald.
Deluded is right. More an exercise in futility than anything else. They can rant and spew their venom all they want, they’re going nowhere. Amazing how desperate their rhetoric becomes which proves they’re losing the cultural war.
Why is it that a foreign import (Roman Catholicism) whose henchmen in the form of bishops and cardinals are allowed to meddle in the political process and whose primary allegiance first and foremost is to a foreign “monarch” in Rome? In another time, this would have been construed as treason.
More importantly are we going to let our hard earned money Fund these temples of hatred and bigotry – We must stop our taxes being used to pay for the upkeep of such abominations of hypocrisy!
Yet again the Church shows itself up as the nasty, vile people they are that clearly have no relevence in a 21st Century society.
The government has already said no religion will be forced to perform wedding of a same sex couple so that really should be the end of it as far as religion goes.
This is the church holding a mouthpiece to be nasty and totally irresponsible by showing how out of date they are.
Nothing can be wrong with 2 people committed to be together and I find these few extremist show up those who truely feel humanity has progressed.
This is all about the church loosing control over society, nothing more nothing less. What else can it be. Those complaining are unlikely to marry someone of the same sex so how exactly does it affect them.
Ridiculous and pathetic.
The church does seem to attract HOMOSEXUAL child abusers.
As usual no relevence or real input just abuse from Keith.
Jock, just ignore the sad little troll. Every comment he gets in reply feeds him. Just laugh at him and ignore. That’s what clowns are for. And keith is deffo the biggest clown I’ve ever read on this website.
Can everybody please ignore and not respond to the poster Poo etc. It is just promoting his mental illness and I am asking everyone to adopt a policy of ignoring individuals who are homophobic and have religous mania such as Poo and Keith etc. It’s a bit like putting a very distruptive child on the naughty step and ignoring them until they learn to behave. So Poo etc on the naughty step / chair and let’s now ignore them?
Catholic Church, yawn, pass the sick-bag.
Wikipedia states: “According to the Central Statistical Office of the Church, Great Britain has a population of 59,381,000 of whom 5,264,000 (8.87%) are Catholics” – wtf?
Both the roman and C of E cults pulled this crap during the CP consultation. Mind you, the final vote in Parliament and in the House of Lords didn’t exactly yield a landslide in favour of CPs. I daresay, we’ll see a similar result when marriage equality comes to a vote. Hopefully, I’m pleasantly surprised with an ever wider margin in favour. More Tory MPs are evolving as well as Labour.
To show how reliable wikipedia is, it also states here:
That the Catholic population of the UK is 8,461,803 or 14% of the population WTF!
The UK Census is 2001 gave the population (this is people declaring themselves as RC – not necessarily those who attend church) as 4.2million in England & Wales or 8.1% of the population according to Dr Gareth Leyshons paper “Catholic Statistics Priest and Population 1841-2001″ for St Johns Seminary, Guildford.
A Catholic website (http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/scgb1.html) gives the figure as 4912932.
In a 2006 Tear Fund survey they found that 7.6million people (15% of population) attend church at least once per month (but this included ALL denominations. They also found that the proportion of people who attend church saying their church is
declining in numbers was greatest among Church of Scotland/Presbyterian (26%), Methodist (23%) and Roman Catholic (22%). These figures …
… make the UK the fourth least church going country in Europe.
Its clear these statistics vary (and wikipedia has various figures).
What is clear is that even Christian groups such as Tear Fund find that RC and other established denominations are dimishing.
Exactly Stu and Wikipedia is the least reliable source when it comes to accuracy. Even so, the percentage of Catholics combined, be they, practicing or lapsed in the UK isn’t that large and the CoE numbers are on the decline, both practicing and non practicing alike. Both denominations are in the minority in terms of the numbers who worship regularly or occasionally. I also fail to see why they should be allowed to have a say in what is purely and strictly a civil matter that has no direct impact on them. It may offend their beliefs but really, is that really going to affect how they live their lives, how the worship, how they marry? Of course not! I would like them to provide the factual evidence to support their ridiculous claims. Have they contacted the governments of 10 countries where same-sex marriage is legal? If so, where is their evidence that those societies have been negatively affected and can they produce examples? The answer is a resounding NO.
Totally the least reliable of sources to be taken at face value … have to look at the figures and facts in much more detail before accepting them as Gospel (pun intended!)
Is any of this relevant to a decision on civil marriage? Absolutely not.
Isn’t ‘bowing to public pressure’ just a differnt way of saying ‘parliamentary demoacracy’?
Isn’t the duty of government to represent the people and protect minorities?
Surely by representing the people they would do what the people wish – which by almost every measure and survey and evidence is … the people want marriage to be fair …
Surely by ensuring civil marriage is fair and equal – the government protect liberties and minorities …
So bowing to public pressure …. if thats what it is … would be the right thing to do …
I though human rights were good things. Strange the church leaders dont seem to like human rights.
According to this link the independent I think is saying they have seen a leaked copy of the consultation which they say is coming out next week.
It appears the government are saying to religions – f@ck off with your extremist views and reprehensible lies.
Thanks heavens , an article from a “normal” Catholic (Peter Watt – former GS of Labour Party)
“And yet this Sunday we Catholics will listen to a plea from the pulpit to oppose gay marriage. Well this Catholic family will listen but will continue in fact to support gay marriage. And I suspect that we will not be alone…”
Oh the joy………………
Pffft. More garbage from Paedophiles’ Anonymous.