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Amsterdam’s ‘gay cure’ declaration rabbi reinstated

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  1. “I do not believe that I have to apologize to anyone for my Torah-based beliefs”

    Translation: “I am still a bigot, and I have conveniently found passages in a book of silly stories that I can say back up my hate as “god inspired”, so why would I apologise for my irrational hate of others who’s sex lives are non of my business?”

    1. People who separate the ‘sin’ from the ‘sinner’, and also, therefore, in Singapore and Malaysia, say criminalising gay sex isn’t targeting gay people, but just an activity, just don’t get it. Banning a loving activity that is intrinsic to a person’s being, is oppressive and detrimental to that person. You may as well say, you can be Jewish so long as you never attend a synagogue.

      1. “You may as well say, you can be Jewish so long as you never attend a synagogue.”

        That is not a valid comparison, as religious persuasion is no excuse to affronting democracy or the civil liberalises of another, especially when picking passages out of book as validation for such behaviour when the same book equally condones rape, slavery and incest.

  2. “I do not believe that I have to apologize to anyone for my Torah-based beliefs”

    He is a bigotted scumbag.

    The Torah also legitimises slavery, but you don’t see religious people arguing for the reinstatement of slavery.

    “Rabbi Yitzchak Schochet of London’s Mill Hill United Synagogue writes in PinkNews.co.uk today: “Chief Rabbi Ralbag should not be relieved of his position for taking a religious stance on a traditional biblical position. That’s plain ludicrous.”

    No.

    What is ludicrous is that apparently educated and supposedly intelligent men like these hateful and hate-filled bigots would use a badly written, work of fiction (which was written thousands of years ago to give meaning to the lives of desert-dwelling illiterate peasants) as a guide on how to live in the year 2012.

    These 2 rabbis are moronic, dangerous, ignorant, hateful bigots and they bring enormous shame to their religion.

    1. As does your hate-filled language bring shame to us.

      1. Not in my view. Minority religions do not get a free pass when they talk the exact same nonsense the majority ones do. These people all need to realise that the realm of influence of their own personal faith ends at the limits of their own lives and stop attempting to impose those views onto others. That goes for all religions, from Christianity and Islam all the way down to the Raelians and Mithraism.

        1. de Villiers 3 Feb 2012, 4:58pm

          It’s no excuse for being a bully.

          1. Bullying exists in many forms, but amongst them is not in my view calling out as dangerous and hateful those who seek to demonise minority groups as tainted and/or sick. People such as Rabbi Ralbag need to have their views confronted. That is not bullying. That is standing up for oneself.

          2. @David

            Standing up to bigotry is a good thing …

            It can be a fine line between defending oneself and using bigotry to combat bigotry …

        2. It’s one thing to disagree with a person, it’s another to launch personal attacks like you do.

          Calling people that disagree with your position ‘morons,’ ‘scumbags,’ and ‘idiots,’ exposes you as an intolerant bigot yourself.

      2. I don’t use hate-filled language. I am merely condemning individual bigots

        Unlike this 2 vicious bigots I am merely condemning them as individuals for their hatred of an entire group of people based on nothing more than some piece of crap religious book..

        1. de Villiers 3 Feb 2012, 4:58pm

          Yes, you do use hate filled language. You are also a nasty bully.

          1. But perhaps it takes many different types of people to gain equality. Black rights would not have got to where it is without both the compassionate non violent views of martin luther king and the violent bullying tactics of malcolm x. I don’t like dAVID’S comments personally, but I know our community needs people like him as well as ‘nice’ people like me if we are going to be heard. So stop bullying him into silence.

          2. @James E

            I am almost totally with you (dAVID might be surprised to hear!) …

            I think he skirts the line very precariously between what is legitimately holding others to account and veering into bullying itself … he does on occasion overstep the mark, and I find his language undesireable (but generally I agree with most of his opinions and think his heart is in the right place).

          3. de Villiers 5 Feb 2012, 1:47am

            > So stop bullying him into silence.

            Calling someone a bully is to describe their behaviour. It is not equivalent to using hate-filled language and extreme comments.

            The bullying of people into silence is performed by David with his nasty insults – not the pointing out of his behaviour.

  3. “The key point to remember is that these individuals are primarily innocent victims of childhood emotional wounds. They deserve our full love, support and encouragement in their striving towards healing.”

    That old chestnut again. I wish they would stop spreading that myth. Neither I or my partner were abused physically or emotionally. I accept there are some gay people that were, but so were many more heterosexuals, and no one has ever shown a link. It’s a thoroughly disreputable theory that has long been debunked.

  4. Well that was a non-apology from the Rabbi, if I ever saw one …

    Disappointed the Amsterdam community backed down and appear to have reinstated him …

    Disappointed at the draconian stance of the European Conference of Rabbis in (appearing to) pressurize the Amsterdam community …

    This sends out a message (whether intended or not) that LGBT people are not valued or treated humanely by the European Rabbis ….(note I wouldnt extend this to the Jewish community necessarily)

    1. Well, he actually seems to be American, and to have bought into the evangelical bs on this issue.

    2. The majority of those European rabbis are probably based in Eastern Europe, so why are you surprised? They espouse the same bigoted beliefs that the majority of Eastern European populations espouse. Especially, since many of them are probably from the USA. (I have seen enough of how the E.European Jewish communities function.)

      1. Not surprised, just disappointed …

  5. Will he now withdraw his signature from the document ?

    1. Of course he won’t.

      He hates gay people.

      He agrees with what the BuyBull says about us. He thinks we should be stripped of our human and civil rights.

      He will simply use less poisonous language in future.

      But make no mistake. He is a man who lives by a doctrine of poisonous bigotry.

    2. His title as the Chief rabbi of the Amsterdam community has been withdrawn from the document, not his signature.

  6. I am proud to be of Jewish descent, but I could never be Orthodox, as they just don’t get a LOT of things and shelter behind fundamentalist bigotry, as do so many other religions’ sects. There are plenty of OTHER Jewish sects/streams in which I could be comfortable as a gay man IF I were religiously inclined.

    I am Jewish by descent (as it is both an ethnicity and a religion and there is no imperative as the former to have faith in the latter) and so I am a secular gay Jew.

    There is no reasoning with the ilk of men like this rabbi. There is a divide between the European sensibility and the American and I would certainly support the separation between the Dutch Orthodox Jewish community and the American rabbinical authority.

    This man is a hypocrite because I fail to be able to believe his retraction has any sincerity at all.

  7. TIME TO OUTLAW THE SUPERSTITIONS THAT ARE RELIGION – IT IS 2012
    TIME TO LET GO OF THE ‘STABLIZERS’ WE CALL FAITH

    1. de Villiers 3 Feb 2012, 4:59pm

      GERMANY DID THAT TO JEWS IN 1940. IT DID NOT SEEM TO WORK.

      1. Disturbingly ironic then that this member of the Jewish faith wants to engage in persecutory “cures” for gay people, rather similar in method to the heinous crimes that was done to them AND gay people in 1940′s Germany. A short memory has he good rabbi

        1. de Villiers 5 Feb 2012, 1:49am

          Yes, I agree. It still does not justify allowing the state to abolish religion and to control people’s thoughts with all the terrible power that would require.

          1. No, agreed. Communism tried that and it ended up with the gulags.

            The solution is for states to administrate based on reason, democracy, freedom and liberty of the individual from persecution.

  8. Helen Wilson 3 Feb 2012, 2:22pm

    I still cant get how a rabbi who Lives in New York can effectively attend to his commitments as a religious leader in Amsterdam?

    1. I think his work permit to the Netherlands should be revoked,

      An extremist imam wouid be denied entry. This rabbi is also a religious extremist.

      1. You are comparing someone who supports the murder of innocent people to someone who opposes the act of homosexuality. That’s about par for this website.

        1. Greg

          I would argue those who engage in “gay cure” are culpable in the deaths of those who commit suicide after such damaging and bullying “therapy”. In the UK it might be feasible that if an organisation supports and encourages such bogus therapy and there is a clear link to a suicide that consideration be given for charges relating to corporate manslaughter …

          1. Where is that clear link? If it exists I would like to see it. More than likely the suicide is a result of the despair they felt at being gay — which is why they turned to reparative therapy — rather than as a direct result of the therapy.

            Regardless, I think it’s clear to anyone but bigots like dAVID, that comparing these people to those that encourage that encourage mass murder of innocent civilians is itself a nasty form of extremism.

          2. “More than likely the suicide is a result of the despair they felt at being gay — which is why they turned to reparative therapy — rather than as a direct result of the therapy.”

            Prove it.

            “that comparing these people to those that encourage that encourage mass murder of innocent civilians is itself a nasty form of extremism.”

            So, its not extremism to be motivated by hate and bigotry to “cure” what science has proven cannot be cured? Really? You think?

            Try reading, it’ll save you looking like a pathetic religious crackpot and bigot on a gay site. Suggestion that you start here:= http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homosexuality-cure-masters-johnson

          3. @Greg

            I refer you to the peer reviewed articles from the Royal College of Psychiatrists which included a global literature review on the subject which found reparative therapy dangerous, damaging and linked to psychological harm and suicides. The link is on another of the threads on here that you have been contributing to recently.

    2. A Jewish community does not really need a full-time rabbi. You can pray in a synagogue without one. You can marry without one. You can do pretty much almost everything without a rabbi. Where a rabbi is actually needed is to render decisions as part of a Jewish religious court.

      After all, “rabbi” is not the same as a priest. “Rabbi” does not mean that the person is in charge of a congregation. The title of “rabbi” is conferred once you’ve shown that you’ve reached a certain level of learning in religious law.

  9. Father Lovejoy 3 Feb 2012, 4:45pm

    These gay cure people are really dangerous people who mix their Christian and Jewish religion with psychiatry which destroys the lives of innocent people. It has been proven not work and in fact harms gays. These people need to be stopped dead in their tracks before they do more harm and brought to justice for the harm they are doing to gays.

  10. What troubles me us the number of people who claim to have been cured by these methods. In many cases it is they that promote or start these cures

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