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Protest at York Minster over Sentamu gay marriage views

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  1. Religion poisons everything.

    1. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 5:42pm

      Including, I presume, the christians who turned out to support marriage equality.

      1. If i’d said “Christians poison everything” you may have had a point, but i didn’t, so you don’t!

        1. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 5:48pm

          I meant, did it poison them as well?

          1. How about “Anglicanism poisons everything”

      2. Do we know if there were any?

        1. Any what, A N Spit?

        2. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 8:11pm

          Yes. Me, for one, but I wasn’t alone, and some of the placards were made by the chaplain at York uni.

          1. Why do you continue to be a member of the homophobic organisation against which you were protesting????

          2. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 9:59pm

            I’m sure we’ve had this discussion before, Harry. I’ve certainly had it many times on here.
            1) I cannot help what I believe. My beliefs are formed on the evidence I’ve examined, and the conclusions I drew from that evidence.
            2) I was brought up in the Church of England and I like it, in general. It’s not the best, but it’s not the worst, it has a rhythm and a community that I’m fond of, and I appreciate the work it does in many walks of life. I wouldn’t leave a sports team just because of other people’s homophobia, so why should I leave my church because of it?
            3) I live in hope of being able to make a real difference in terms of a grassroots change towards tolerance. If I can go home to my home church and tell them how I’d like to marry my girlfriend there, or come to a new church and encourage them to adopt a policy of tolerance and put themselves on the list of gay friendly churches, isn’t that better than me leaving?

          3. Interesting and thank you for responding fully.However…..

            1) You *can* help what you believe.You have a brain. I sincerely and honestly find it difficult to take someone seriously who claims that their belief (in virgin births and some dead Palestinian rising from he dead – I ask you!) is based on evidence as opposed to faith. Anyway if you insists on believing such stuff, contrary to the evidence, there are plenty of non-homophobic churches you could join.
            2) What you mean is that your parents indoctrinated you into the faith. Fair enough, but there are plenty of communities you could join which are not homophobic and to answer your specific question of course I would leave a sports team or any other organisation of which I was a member if it tolerated homophobes, or worse still (to make the analogy closer to the C of E) its management were homophobes. I am concerned that you think it morally acceptable to stay.
            tbc

          4. /cont

            3) I do not know if you are a member, Galadriel, of “my pinknews”, but if you are please do give me your username so that I can bet you a significant sum of money that the C of E hierarchy will campaign tooth and nail against marriage equality when it comes before parliament and when it passes will avail of any and all optouts parliament allows. Hope needs to be based on reason not wishes that things were otherwise.

            i respectfully submit that you are weighing “rhythm and a community” (which I do not deny in some places I suppose – though personally I prefer pubs) against support of a backward and phobic organisation and prioritising the former over the latter.

          5. sorry a final PS. You seek tolerance. I do not. I seek acceptance and welcome. You aim low.

          6. To change from within or to vote with your feet?

            I’d favour to vote with your feet and join another church, since God is everywhere (apparently) and to be a Christian you have only to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ (or if you prefer, “to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal saviour”).

            Also, change from within seems a lot like banging one’s head against a brick wall…

            …but you know good luck with it Galadriel1010, at least you showed up and did something constructive, which is more than most people seem to do.

          7. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 11:20pm

            @Harry I would argue that it’s sheer bloody stubbornness keeping me there. The comfort is greatly overruled by my refusal to leave just because I’m not wanted. That’s pretty much it, if I’m honest. There’s nothing I hate more than giving up.

            As to your third point, I’m sure you’re right, unfortunately. And I’ll fight them tooth and nail from the bottom.

            I’m not a member of ‘my pinknews’ – been waiting for my membership to be approved or something, idk.

          8. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 11:23pm

            @Joss Many things feel like beating my head against a brick wall. But if my head’s all I’ve got and the wall needs to come down…

      3. The C of E which I think you belong to is institutionally homophobic and you should be ashamed of being a member of it. There are some people who suffer from the mild mental illness called Christianity who are members of respectable pro-gay organisations.

        1. Joseph Adam 1 Feb 2012, 10:31pm

          Religious phobic much? Here in Aus we had a Catholic priest create a petition which lead to the end of the Gay Panic Defence in QLD. My parents, devout Catholics, have been nothing but accepting and supportive since I came out. I’m not saying that religious communities are smelling of roses, but they’re not all bad. Maybe you should all practice what you preach and be open minded.

          Gala I appreciate what you’re doing, keep @ it :)

          1. I do not deny that there are individuals who suffer from religion who are gay friendly. (Though I would love to have an intellectual argument with your parents on the issue.)

            But membership of an institution brings with it some support for the institution’s values and beliefs.

            And yes in the strict sense of the term I am religion phobic. I FEAR the effect of religion in slowing progress towards full equality and acceptance of LGBT people and of my civil rights.

        2. @Harry

          Re: the survey that you asked me for details of …

          I have posted details on the discussion area of the original story of the Archbishops comments

          Hope they make sense …

          Cheers

          Stu

      4. Spanner1960 2 Feb 2012, 12:24am

        There is a big difference between religion and faith.
        Having a faith is a personal belief and even as a dyed in the wool atheist I would never denigrate or dismiss. However religion is the collectively organised and channelled responses to those faiths used to ultimately enforce power and dogma and to manipulate the will of the people in whatever way their leaders choose.

        Believing in a God is not a bad thing. Forcing someone else to believe in it is.

        1. @Spanner1960

          Absolutely!

          You, I and others may well find the personal belief or faith as illogical … but then some others may find our own ideological views on some issues illogical (!) …

          Its even (sometimes – not often!) interesting to chat about why everyone takes the views and beliefs they have …

          Pressurizing others to believe or consider belief, or imposing moral conditions on others due to your own beliefs or seeking “special status” due to world view (as Sharia law or George Carey seem to seek) are all wrong …

          Having faith in itself is not wrong …. Its just not something I personally have …

    2. HPV ready! 1 Feb 2012, 10:31pm

      So does HIV.
      HIV is a disease of the promicuous a. The highest rishk group for HIV is the homosexual disorder community…as expected!

      1. HPV ready? What does that mean?
        You’re eagerly awaiting the time when you can contract the HPV virus?
        Where would you most like to have these warts appear?

        I have a verruca you can have. I picked it up in Total Fitness a while back and it’s been quite stubborn to remove.

        Perhaps we can arrange a transplant?

        A note about your HIV reference according to THT “Since 1999 heterosexual sex has overtaken homosexual sex as the most common route of transmission among new HIV cases overall.” So it seems your information is out of date.

        Also as a female member of “the homosexual disorder community” I think you’ll find I’m in the lowest risk group statistically… I mean it’s not impossible but you’re still completely wrong.

      2. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 11:21pm

        As I say whenever you bring this up – one of the lowest risk groups is homosexual women. We’re also not condemned in the bible. God must really love us.

    3. HPV ready! 1 Feb 2012, 10:32pm

      So does HIV.
      HIV is a disease of the promicuous a. The highest rishk group for HIV is the homosexual disorder community…as expected.!

      1. Spanner1960 2 Feb 2012, 12:25am

        Twat.

    4. I understand where you are coming from, but is it religion that poisons or more a particular mentality that can develop when spiritual aspects of the human experience are approached and viewed in a particular way? Yes, religion can be used to disempower, foster prejudice, alienate, exclude and divide. Yes it can be approached in a rigid, inflexible, authoritarian, dictatorial, tyrannical kind of way. But the opposite can also be true. So in short I would say that if there are or can be exceptions to a rule, then it’s not a rule. And no, I’m not religious.

    5. Staircase2 2 Feb 2012, 8:05pm

      of course it doesn’t….religion can only poison those who buy into it…

      Thank God (quite literally!) that the religions in the UK have for quite a while now been losing their grip on the public’s psyche.

      Even with the best efforts of the new-comer evangelicals (both Christian and otherwise) people in the UK aren’t generally buying into religion’s bollocks any more. And thank God for that!

      Spirituality does not belong to the Churches (of any denomination) – it belongs to each and every one of us. And each and every one of us has our own path to find it in ourselves.

      Idiots like Dr John Sentamu and fundamentalists in both the Christian, Muslim & other churches are desperately clinging on to the prestige and power that their positions traditionally afforded them in the face of an increasingly empowered secularist society.

      They will lose

      hoorah!

  2. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 5:47pm

    It was great to be there and see so many people there today, in spite of the really, really, really cold.

    1. Hi Galadriel
      I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. While not a member of the CofE, I have an affection for it and a number of friends who are members (and to blot my copybook also the good archbishop you were protesting against). I hope you are able to hang in there though (I like your spirit) and may God bless you.

  3. Great to see this protest covered on regional TV news in the north east …

    Interesting that despite being back int he country the Archbishop declined to respond to requests for comment from various news agencies …

    Well done to those who protested, perhaps another peaceful protest when the Archbishop is actually present might be a good idea … let us know if anything happens …

    1. Perhaps his rhetoric was aimed at his Jamaican audience, not known for being gay friendly.

      1. No, he was stating the mainstream doctrine of the Anglican church. Just in a rather ore forthright way than the Wimp at Canterbury.

  4. Father Ted 1 Feb 2012, 6:25pm

    “It’s almost like somebody telling you that the Church, whose job is to worship God [will be] an arm of the Armed Forces. They must take arms and fight. You’re completely changing tradition.”

    Where on earth did he learn history? Oh yes, Uganda.

    The Church was a military power for hundreds of years. It was created the official church of Rome by Constantine to help win bloody battles. And never heard of the Crusades? Or the Pope having his own armies, which helped to crush the Irish armies? Never heard of conscientious objectors, who refused to fight for religious reasons, being shot in the 20th century? Or of Army chaplains, convincing each army that God was on their side?

    The Church has quite a long military history, and plenty of tradition within the military, thank you very much!

    1. The C of E also invest in weapons companies, under the duplicitous proviso that the companys total arms business is not more than 30%

  5. I notice the BBC have halved the number of protesters to “more than” 50. They used to do this with gay pride demonstrations years ago.

    Nice to see students taking action on this!

  6. Wish I’d known about this. York’s only a 20 minute train journey for me!

    I have Christina friends who don’t have a problem with me and love me for me. So I don’t have anything in general against Christians. But there are those exceptions who are incredible bigots and use the bible to back their bigotry beliefs!! Really annoys me.

    Much like Muslims are all deemed to want to kill us all, when they are NOT all like that it is just a few hardcore bigots who think that way and, much like certain Christians, use the Koran to help fight their twisted fight! The Christians have come to be thought in much the same way when it comes to such things like Gay Rights.

    I’m not Christian but I do think we need to be careful how we band our anger about. I know how easy it is because I’m no angel myself. But when I think about such remarks I think of my Christian friends who I love and respect and who equally love and respect me.

    1. Galadriel1010 1 Feb 2012, 8:16pm

      Sweeping generalisations about any group do more harm than good.

    2. I have no objection to Christians per se but I have every objections to the intellectual hypocrites who are members of the C of E or Catholics, two institutionally homophobic organisations who do contain some individuals who go against their institutions’ ‘ teaching.

  7. Dr Sentamu is either disingenous or an idiot.

    It’s obvious that government must and does define marriage. Government decides at what age a person is an adult who can consent to marriage. Some religious traditions would have girls married off the day of their first period. Government decides how many spouses you can have at a time (one) – some religions suggest that men can have a few more. And government has stated that marriage can be ended by divorce – some churches see it differently.

    Religious ceremonies don’t have to fit government rules. Religions can refuse to marry couples who are legally free to wed (as when the Catholic church refuses to marry a divorcee), and they can conduct legally invalid weddings (as when an imam performs a nikkah for a man with a wife already).

    Religions define their own marriage rites. But religions haven’t defined legal marriage rights for over 200 years.

    So, Dr Sentamu, are you lying, or do you need me to explain again, this time with clipart?

    1. Clipart is too advanced please use stick figures.

    2. Staircase2 2 Feb 2012, 8:12pm

      …actually – no – really – he is actually an idiot…

  8. This was a great effort, a lot of the protesters were young people from the University,its encouraging that these youngsters are bothered about this issue feel able to voice their opinions.
    WELL DONE York University students.

  9. Just like big Jessie O’Brien in Scotland, I doubt the government will see this other huge girl in it’s way.

    1. Absolutely fantastic effort from the Uni. Well done. We need more protest from Christians within the church. Liberal Christians need to be heard too. Dr Sentamu gets his prejudices from his Ugandan origins. We all know about what kind of laws they want to pass in that country against gay people. He should have left his prejudices at the door when he entered this one, but evidently he didn’t.

      1. “Dr Sentamu gets his prejudices from his Ugandan origins.”

        What excuse is there for people who are for example British born with the same prejudices?

        1. Apparently they are from Clapham.

  10. Check out my blog on Archbishop Sentamu and LGBT History Month:-

    http://goo.gl/BOjlw

  11. There will never be equality, because homosexuals CANNOT be equal ( The Same) as heterosexuals, prove me wrong, its fundamental, Marriage by its very nature is between a man and a woman and it is the essential foundation of family life.

    1. No reason not to give them equal rights though.

      1. Otherwise you’d ban sterile people from marriage too

    2. Helen Wilson 1 Feb 2012, 11:15pm

      Maybe we cannot be equal under religious law…but…we do not seek religious marriage just civil marriage. The Marriage Act 1949 clearly separates religious marriage and civil marriage so religion gets no say as to what civil marriage is or is not.

      Who would want religious marriage anyway? It reduces woman to a mere possessions given from on man to another in a exchange of ownership.

      You can keep religious marriage we want no part in this unequal arrangement.

      1. Father Ted 2 Feb 2012, 12:22am

        Some denominations want religious marriage for gays. Religious freedom demands they get it.

    3. “prove me wrong”

      I don’t have to, you already did:- You’re obviously damaged, or else you’d be able to put a coherent argument together. Secondly,. you’re on a gay site espousing anti-gay nonsense, so you’re clearly obsessed with homosexuality.

      I’d say most certainly we’re not equal – I’m obviously ba superior individual to you.

    4. you’re right

      i could never be as big a cn nt as you

    5. Equal doesn’t mean the same. Equality means giving equal rights to people who are different – different skin colours, different sexes, different ages, different sexuality.

      Not that you care because you seem to glory in your ignorance and hatred. Ask yourself WHY you feel so vindictive towards gay people. Clue: the answer’s inside yourself.

    6. Black people are not the same as white people – should they have different rights?

      Jews are not the same as Muslims or atheists … should any of them have different rights?

      Women are not the same as men should they have different rights?

      Blind people are not the same as people without visual impairments – should they have different rights?

      Red heads are not the same as blondes … should they have different rights?

      If the answer to any of those questions is yes – please, do explain why …

      If the answer is no, then please explain why homosexuals should have different rights because they are different if its not the case in the other scenarios ….

      1. Stu you are not seeing what I am saying. Homosexuals are not the same as heterosexuals, they cannot bear children, they are not what god intended, he did not create homosexuals, they chose, therefore they are not *equal* and should not have the same rights.

        All the other above mentioned on your post can be in a heterosexual relationship.

        1. You’re not answering my questions?

          Would you treat people differently because of their race, religion, gender, disability … etc?

          If no, why specifically would you for orientation?

          Would you treat bisexual or asexual people differently?

        2. Would you treat someone who is heterosexual but infertile different to someone who is fertile?

    7. “Marriage by its very nature is between a man and a women and it is the essential foundation of family life”

      . . . . .

      This is a very 1950s view of the world . . .

      Since most heterosexual marriages (over 60%) end in divorce, your “essential foundation” as you put it, seems like a very shaky prerequiste for family life indeed.

  12. Im sure people building York Minster would have been horrified to have a Black Arch Bishop….but times change- sadly the church seems to have been left behind somewhere in the mid 1950′s.

    1. They would also be surprised that neither the Minster nor the Archbishop are Catholic.

      1. yes good point!

  13. The church could have become irrelevent if gay marriage was left alone.

    CP could have been a modern version.

    Who’s idea was it to have gay marriage anyway?

    They don’t like us

    1. Paddyswurds 2 Feb 2012, 4:01pm

      @James!…
      ….get the terminology right. It is not “gay marriage” we want, but Marriage equality for all human beings of legal age. End of.

  14. Sentami is a flat nosed jackass who should know better

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

  15. And York St. John University Students :P
    We were there too, but none of the news articles seemed to mention us. We found it particularly disgusting, because he’s technically the Chancellor of our Uni too…

    1. Well done, Grikmeer

      Perhaps you need to raise your concerns with your University Vice Chancellor too?

    2. Galadriel1010 2 Feb 2012, 3:05pm

      And now I wonder who you are, as I was going to make the same comment myself. I think people tend to forget that there is another university here

  16. Dr Sentamu, who born in Uganda and fled Idi Amin’s dictatorship. The big sissy!

  17. Did you know that the “poo poo pastor” Ssempa is on trial in Uganda for framing the Archbishop’s brother for sodomy, allegedly bribing young men to say he had sex with them? All part of the rivalry for customers over there. Details are on the GayUganda blog.

  18. Staircase2 2 Feb 2012, 7:58pm

    Dr John Sentamu is an arse…

    …there! I said it… (the truth is out!)

  19. Staircase2 2 Feb 2012, 8:10pm

    Thank God (quite literally!) that the religions in the UK have for quite a long while now been losing their grip on the public’s psyche.

    Even with the best efforts of the new-comer evangelicals (both Christian, Muslim and otherwise) people in the UK aren’t generally buying into religion’s bollocks any more. And thank God for that!

    Spirituality does not belong to the Churches (of any denomination) – it belongs to each and every one of us. And each and every one of us has our own path to find it in ourselves.

    Idiots like Dr John Sentamu and fundamentalists in both the Christian, Muslim & other churches are desperately clinging on to the prestige and power that their positions traditionally afforded them in the face of an increasingly empowered secularist society.

    …And they will lose

    hoorah!

  20. Robin Evans 2 Feb 2012, 10:03pm

    Who cares about these mindless dinosaurs… Senatmu is a de-evolutionist, he would rather enshrine ancient, out-dated and divisive customs than embrace the abundant and ever evolving future…

    Thankfully his kind are dying out…

  21. Just send him a few postcards from Stonewall or something… After reading the 965th one he might get the hint!

    He said: Its not for the government to decide what marriage is.

    I say: Nor is it for you or the church to decide what marriage is. It is up to the people involved in the marriage to decide what marriage is!

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