Hitch was right – Religion poisons everything.
At first I thought they might have been mistaken with there aim (though calling us lepers maybe not the best move), but now that I see they use gay cure therapy it shows them for their true bigotry.
So they’ve constructed a convenient little psychodrama in which LGBTs get to play “lepers” and they get to play a magnaminous “Jesus”.
Whatever helps them sleep at night I guess, though we see it for what it is.
A bunch of fundies with a Jesus complex inflicting their stone-age morality on the rest of us in the guise of mental health charity.
They can spin it however they like, and they may even snare the easily manipulated, but the bigotry shines through.
The following is well worth listening to, as it shows what is going on with this dubious organization Core Issues. The important part starts at about 0:42:00
It’s only available for another 2 days.
Good link Will… it shows how discredited their entire regime is.
Thanks DW, lots of wriggling like a can of worms to avoid answering questions. Let’s cure gay people but don’t tell anyone we are doing it in case it brings unwanted attention… indeed.
Great link. Thanks for posting.
Merely abstaining from homosexual activity, although admirable, cannot be regarded as healing … Great article! very informative about the realities of ignorance and good old fashioned intolerance. Devious control for sure …
Another interesting link (as a result of the programme linked to by Will)
Mike Davidson is the head of CORE Issues Trust.
Thank you very much for that, Dave G.
I listened to this from 0:42 onwards. I actually spoke with Mike for a few minutes at the Conference this evening and he kindly gave some some of his time and took me in from the cold Westminster street.
He mentioned the conference in Belfast and the attendees who debated the ‘contrary position’, you might say.
My only aim in seeking to meet with someone holding views about therapy and ‘change’ and orthodoxy opposite to my own, was just to point out where the Bible says more than we usually hear about homosexuality (namely, Genesis, Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans). Matthew 19:12 makes it quite clear that Jesus himself fully understands the full scope of human nature and sexuality. Psalm 139:15 (a quite beautiful Psalm – read it if you are a mother or father or have parents) makes it quite clear that God in heaven knows every atom of you, every sinew and vein and strand of DNA and every neurobiological entity that forms your sex, your gender, your sexual attraction.
And it is good.
Let the professional bodies take their course. Therapies without clear evidence of efficacy and with clear potential for harm (though not universal by any means) will slowly die away through the essential contradiction in believing that no one is born gay or LBGT whilst the growing body of evidence (fMRI in particular) shows that neurobiological entities are deeply connected to sex and gender and attraction. I feel authentic and whole, congruent and unconflicted as a gay man. I only wish Mike and the others at the conferences could feel the joy in living as I do.
Thanks Paul for this helpful post. Sorry, I didn’t see you earlier. If Mike hadn’t taken you in, I would have although I was only a humble attendee.
There is nothing conflcited about Gods gift of homosexuality to you.
I am unclear on exactly what your view is on a couple of issues …
Let me make it clear from the start of my comment here that I am pleased that you feel whole and authentic as a gay man.
Let me also make it perfectly clear that I perceive and strongly believe so-called “reparation therapy” is vindictive, cruel and psychologically damaging to many.
If, I am interpreting your comments correctly (please correct me if I am not) then it seems to me that you are suggesting that we should not confront and expose such therapies as they will just “die away” anyway ….
Surely this means that you are accepting that some people will be bullied and psychologically harmed and endorsing such ignorant and wrong therapies?
One of the reasons that I am confused by your statements is that at some points in this discussion you suggest protesting … and at others you suggest it will all just fade away …
poof and dykes the whole lot of them
The quotes are contradictory, they say they are not offering conversion therapy, but are offering gender affirming therapy whose goal is change and marriage.
Is offering such “therapy” dangerous and fraudulent? Particularly if there is any money changing hands?
unfortunately in the uk not really, otherwise homeopathy would be illegal heh just as much a scam although the motivations are completely different, the get out clause is basically all they have to say is it might not work and it might cause damage and thats their get out clause so to speak
The same could be said of psychology.
I particularly note the following piece of illogical trash:
‘CORE works with people who voluntarily seek to change from a “gay” lifestyle to a gender-affirming one.’
Affirming someone’s gender is fine, but it isn’t going to change their sexual orientation, any more than affirming someone’s hair colour is going to change the colour of their eyes.
“Gender affirming” and “Gay lifestyle” is a false dichotomy.
Last time I checked I’m a bloke, my gayness is an irrelevence to my gender identity.
There’s some serious weasel words in Core issues Trust’s public pronouncements.
Is anyone willing to come down at 6pm to Westminster and protest?
Good idea mate. We should all go there then announce “Hey jerk, we’re happy the way we are. Why can’t you just leave us the hell alone.”
Is aany one going to protest / witness against this ?
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We’d need to be there at 6pm to catch them going in.
Will you come? It’s not ideal cos there are a lot of offices and traffic in rush hour mode.
good luck Paul. I had to leave after the afternoon session and couldn’t make the evening session. If I had I would have liked to say hi :-)
JohnB . . . I feel very concerned about your involvement in this abusive conference
I truly hope your capacity to reason allows you to recongise very soon, the self hatred and homophobia which is binding you
If there is a God, who knows ? – there may be, lets pray together that you can accept your conflicted gay impulses. Lets pray that soon you can embrace your God given homosexuality, rather than subjecting Gods gift of homosexuality in you to enormous spiritual, emotional and psychological violence.
JohnK: I am touched by your concern. I wish you were at the conference. You may still feel the subject matter may put it in the “abusive” category but maybe not … for abusive it certainly wasn’t. As for my homosexuality, I’m afraid you are barking up the wrong tree.
christians muslims are the sh*t of the earth,
LOL! What’s a “christians muslim” then?
1 – They are honey-tongued bigots. Soft soap with razors in it still cuts – to mix metaphors.
2 – They are peddlars of unscientific bilge and quackery which harm people.
They require repeated public exposure on both counts.
Would this “increasing body of evidence” have any demonstration of peer review?
Is it the same evidence that has been thrown out as lacking any sense of credibility by various eminent and experienced academic and professional bodies?
Would this just be bigotry?
I think so …
One of the sessions was to look at the research as whether being gay was a matter of nature of nuture. The evidence seems to point overwhelmingly to the latter (I will write to you separately on what I found out).
Don’t bother !
The evidence is bollocks and pointless and is only used by your lot to legitimise stopping any LGBT rights by saying it’s a lifestyle choice and if we can just be conditioned to stop thinking about willies then we can become normal like you…We’ve heard all that crap for decades…the only people who haven’t moved on from all that research stuff is the anti-gay Christian lobby groups who keep throwing up the same anti-gay research papers…and please don’t quote that Peter Thatchel believes something similar as well becuase PT has his opinion which doesn’t always correspond with the rest of us..
I would be surprised if the evidence is any different from the discredited reports that have been long shown to be scientifically questionable by peer review in the US, but nonetheless be interested to see …
I would say the evidence (that I am aware of) is much more veered towards a biological framework of genetic and uteral development conditions being the prime focus for orientation being developed. Sure, environment can have some influence – but can not alter orientation (is my understanding)
LOL! JohnB, you wouldn’t know a peer reviewed study if it kicked you in that vacuous space you call a head! You’re a bigot,so why would we listen to a bigot as an expert?
Get used to the term, its not one of endearment.
Core Issues Trust says:
“All human sexuality is fallen and is in need of the sanctifying work of God to restore it to its intended wholeness and divine purpose.”
It’s John Calvin all over again, authoritarian religion defining human sexuality, and deaf to contemporary scientific discoveries.
Yes, the ‘fall’ is a funny business. It involves the assumption that all human life and motivation is flawed and corrupted – but especially the bits people are prejudiced about – against an external and unprovable divine standard speculated upon by – you guessed it – ‘fallen’ human beings. Thomas Aquinas tried to circumvent the absurdity of imperfect beings defining the perfect by insisting that we were entirely fallen except for our intellect. Christian theology is full of wriggly nonsense like this.
Oh yeah, that’s another thing: this stuff about “wholeness”. Some of these “ex-gay” groups talk about “restoring” people to “sexual wholeness”. What is that exactly? Sex wi’ nowt taken out?
THe group that placed the name on the flag in london should be sued a;nd reprimanded for inflamatory defamations , its a horrific name about the best communities in our nations, and it insults an emotionally assaults children and other lgbt members because it really aims at all of them wrongfully , the lgbt European task force and human rights, orgrs and lgbt, orgs must make them take the flag down immeidately and just leave a rainbow fllag, you call the confererences that are for the lgbt comunity names with honor and respect, unlike a hetersexul community that is know everyday as rappest , murders , wife beater, pedaphiles, sex traffickers of children, and who secrettly tries to by these children before arrested hetersexu;al pedephiles, philip hinkly and senator craig, ted haggard, eddie long, this situation had better be fixed, the religions has nerver wrongfully labeling anyone, the hippocrites, they are the problem with our society, now, the wars, the sex crimes, the traffickin
The african religions, and white evangelicas who have this hate ministries, are insane and pewtred, The are flat out Clowns, who act a fool everyday , we no many personally, gotton in trouble like eddie long, and messing with underage girls in the church , one of the head bishops got in the fight with his wife, and tried to throw her out an open going car door while driving , it was all in the church the next day, he could have went to jail for it, they cast him out of his seat , the woman divorced him, you colored Juanita, bynum got up as a prophetess, and went told the public she was having a marriage from heaven and a gift from god to a god sent reverand bishop who was an angel, the wedding along aired on public tv and was a multimillionair wedding and the made dvd to sell , less than a year lately someone video taped the woman getting her ass kicked and beat in a hotel parking lot by that same lovely bishop sent from god, marriage made Y:es from their heaven on earth , thats right
I have just returned from today’s conference and I felt it was a very worthwhile event.
I was disappointed with the accuracy of Pink News lead paragraph: “London will play host to a conference titled ‘The Lepers Among Us’ today, aimed at “conflicted” people with gay impulses” because I normally respect the high standards of PN journalism. The conference was in fact titled “The Pastoral and the Prophetic in Conflict? Homosexuality and the Church” and was aimed at “all those in Christian leadership or ministry who wish to deal with these issues in a pastorally-sensitive and biblically-faithful way in our increasingly fraught, PC age.”
As PN did begin to point out and Hamish, and Flapjack (comments 2 & 3) missed, the Lepers comment (which was the title of a book by the keynote speaker) was more a challenge to the church to engage with more compassion and sensitivity toward gay folk while recognizing there are bigger issues in churches e.g. among folk addicted to Internet pornography.
… While it is true the conference speakers did represent mainstream Christian views, there were gay folk attending, who (I believe) would have felt welcomed. I happened to ask questions relating to concerns folk have raised in PN forums and received helpful responses.
I went away feeling encouraged and realising the issues are far bigger than some Christians having a downer on gay folk, which in any case is far from the case.
Likewise, Linsay Comway, director of social services for the Presbyterian Church, admitted on the Richard Crawley radio program last Sunday that he was appalled to hear a ‘leper vocabulary’ in reference to the LGBT community, and that he would not trust Core Issues Trust to counsel anyone on the pastoral care of homosexuals.
Furthermore, Dr. Ivan Paterson, director of Queen’s University Presbyterian Theological College, stated that although Jim Reynolds was invited to speak to the students two weeks ago, the College definitely does not endorse Core Issues Trust.
Finally, I do wonder why Rev. Sharon Ferguson, is investigation Mike Davidson, director of Core Issues Trust.
According to Lindsay Comway and Ivan Paterson, it is not true that the conference speakers represent mainstream Christian views.
Also, I do believe that hostility of some Christians towards ‘gay folk’ lacks no evidence, and that you know that.
Johnb – Why do you persist in playing “uncle Tom” whenever blatant homophobia is presented to you?
We checked the context on the BBC debate above (see the link from Deeside Will) in which those present at the conference still managed to present it as “curing unwanted same sex attraction” in a truly disingenuous way. The Leper comment was entirely backed up by the context, which was ‘curing people of unwanted gayness’ in spite of the legitimate concerns of mainstream psychiatry.
The Texas Lawyer was the lowest human slime in presenting it as a human rights issue for those in favour of gay cures. He reminded me of Nick Naylor.
If they’d presented a skin bleaching technique for black people as a possible ‘cure’ for people not happy with their skin colour, would you be so quick to endorse it or would you be reading between the lines?
Flapjack: I just tried to click on your youtube but not recognised – can you confirm.
My take on the Texas lawyer is while he may have faults (don’t we all) that he is a compassionate man and he is no one trick pony either. Lots of the folk in his church have “issues” e.g. Internet pornography addiction and he speaks as one struggling saint to another.
What a lot of gay folk dislike is that he starts from a premise that some forms of behaviour are desirable and some not.
“What a lot of gay folk dislike is that he starts from a premise that some forms of behaviour are desirable and some not.”
i.e. gayness… and how exactly isn’t that homophobic?
Re. Nick Naylor… try this one,
Thanks Flapjack – yes amusing and do doubt there is a message!
But no way do I recognise the likeness with Jim Reynolds.
Think about your statement – I’m sure you will agree that not beating up innocent victims is desireable behaviour and doing the opposite is undersireable.
About homophobia – a pejorative term if there ever was one. My understanding is that it is a hatred towards and a fear of homosexuals. Dr Reynodls does not do that and neither do I.
JohnB – Then your understanding of homophobia is different to mine.
It’s analoguous to racism.
As I said before, if you set up a clinic with the express purpose of ‘curing’ blacks of their ‘unwanted’ skin tone a la Michael Jackson, that would send out a pretty clear message of where you stand on white superiority, and it doesn’t make one iota of difference whether the client requested it.
If you’re exploiting the insecurities of traditionally stigmatised and marginalised minorities to ply your trade, a stigma which you perpetuated in the first place, then claiming it’s all about ‘freedom of choice’ rings somewhat hollow.
Which ‘gay folk’ would have felt welcomed? Let me hazard a guess – those who shared the conference’s view that love and attraction between people of the same sex must be devalued as a ‘temptation’ and that sexual expression of it must be condemned. Those who affirm and value their gay and lesbian sexuality and the expression of it, I suggest, would not have felt welcome at all. You come out with a vague statement which evades the issue of reactionary and selective Christian belief’s hostility to gay and lesbian relationships. It is a form of spin, of a smile on the face of bigotry.
If this group of idiots ARE recognised as a charity,The HMRC want to get a grip of themselves! BUT,be warned. This flags up the dangers posed by certain members of the LGBT comunity who are punting the ‘ gay is a Lifestyle choice’ idea! They are wrong and dangerous!
Violet: I think you mean the charity commission (not HMRC that doesn’t have an interest in such matters since charities pay tax like anyone else). I believe they do meet the charity commssion criteria and should be allowed to operate like any other charity who has core values (which is most).
Its interesting to note that those charities that have received the strongest and most public chastisements in recent years have been extremist Islamic and extremist Christian organisations …
I would argue the Christian Institute have been testing to see how far they can push the cloak the charity status …
. . . and it seems almost as if the Christian Institute is playing the rebel angry teenage card. Moreover, in an attempt to see how far it can stretch the boundaries of acceptabilty with regards overt expressions of homophobic prejudice.
In a nutshell . . . a two fingers to you game of petulant immaturity.
Comparing lepers with the sexual acts of homosexuals is an unsult to lepers
Why? Are you leper?
This conf was advertised in Anglican mainstream weeks ago
There it states the conf is for
“It is vital that those of us who oppose gay ‘marriage’ and the LGBT cultural and religious agenda hear and help strugglers, those with unwanted same-sex attractions…”
it goes on to say
“‘The call is for the Church to be and become Family for all sinning Saints, including those who struggle with same-sex sins. Like all of us, same-sex strugglers from time to time need professional counselling or a parachurch group, ….”
Scary and damaging …
Even more worrying to me is the report about comments by the Archbishop of York (the CoE’s second most senior leader) where he states “I don’t think it is the role of the state to define what marriage is.
It is set in tradition and history and you can’t just (change it) overnight, no matter how powerful you are. We’ve seen dictators do it, … in different contexts and I don’t want to redefine very clear social structures that have been in existence for a long time and then overnight the state believes it could go in a particular way.”
He then went on to say “We supported civil partnerships because we believe that friendships are good for everybody.”
The Archbishop does not understand that CPs are not about friendships – they are about loving, committed relationships.
The Archbishop does not understand that his attempts to maintain prejudice is no different to those who sought to prevent inter racial marriage (was that a redefinition?)
The Archbishop …
… should (but given his comment “The Church has always stood out – Jesus actually was the odd man out. I’d rather stick with Jesus than be popular because it looks odd.” probably isn’t) be ashamed of his bigotry.
My understanding of (if the stories are true) Jesus’ teaching is that he challenged the religious leaders and their unfairness, lack of compassion and bigotry. I know many Christians subscribe to a theology called What Would Jesus Do?, I suspect if real, he would condemn the actions of the Archbishop.
What is remarkable for the bigotry in his comments he went on to say “Heaven is not going to be full of just black people, just working-class people, just middle-class people, it’s going to be, in the words of Desmond Tutu, a rainbow people of God in all its diversity,”. Clearly, this diversity does not include LGBT people being treated fairly and equally in the Archbishops view.
If you are HIV+ or Have AIDS. You are treated like leper. This is why more education on HIV/AIDS and the stigma associated with it, must be addressed.
Its essential that we tackle stigma and avoid demonsiing those who are positive …
Its also essential that certain organisations who do not recognise (or choose not to recognise) that they stigmatise LGBT people are confronted and they are condemned for their inhumane approaches
The churches have certainly been busy this week mustering the powers of evil and darkness and getting their minions to do their dastardly tasks.
Early this week the CofE and Catholic Archbishop went to see Teressa May to ask her to put an end gay marruage
Today the telegraph report Archbishop Semantu warning the govt not to bring it in gay marriage
PQ and response on Thurs to DUP MP on relgious gay marriages.
And now this conf where a month ago they advertise it to all christians opposed to gay marrriage and the LGBT agenda etc…
What next will these desperate Christians do ? It’s certainly building up to a frenzy in the nasty Christian world before the consultation on gay marriage in a months time…
Christians know what they are doing when they use their black propaganda of saying bad things about gay to destroy the wins and gains gays have been making over the years. it is all part of psychological warfare and they know it and Christians pretend it is something else which is a lie and a transgression of their beliefs which is proof they have lost their way.
They are the ones who need curing
Lindsay Comway, director of social services for the Presbyterian Church, admitted on the Richard Crawley radio program last Sunday that he was appalled to hear a ‘leper vocabulary’ in reference to the LGBT community, and that he would not trust Core Issues Trust to counsel anyone under pretext of the pastoral care of homosexuals.
What out for this telegraph article
“Leading church figures including the former Archbishop of Canterbury have sparked controversy by championing a psychotherapist who believes gay men can be ‘cured’ of their homosexuality. …..”
It goes without saying that the gay camp would not object to someone from the straight camp being recruited into the gay one. The reticulated jaws of the pink python only allow food to pass in one direction. Plus the psychiatrists have no quibble with someone changing into becoming woman and then back again to become a man and then back again to becoming a woman. Which is more difficult changing one’s gender or changing one’s sexual tastes?
No Homosexuality is exactly the same as Islamic ideology. Converts are never allowed to escape but are dragged back to their slavery and bondage. Woe betide if they try to escape
Yawn. Utterly predictable inaccurate reactionary Christian drivel. We got bored with you a long time ago, David. Go back onto your medication.
For heaven’s sake, David Skinner, when are you going to make contact with the world of reality? There may conceivably be a minuscule number of nutters – although I’ve never actually met them – who want to recruit people into the “gay camp”, but most of us haven’t the slightest interest in even trying.to do that, and we know perfectly well that it isn’t possible to do it anyway. We’re happy being gay, and we’re equally happy with the fact that the vast majority of people are straight. Vive la différence.
People have the right, of course, to change their sexual orientation if they don’t like it, just as they have the right to change the colour of their eyes if they don’t like it; the only problem in both cases is that they can’t. People who peddle “ex-gay ministry” and “conversion therapy” are essentially in the same category as the soi-disant clairvoyant who wrote to a friend of mine offering him a way to win the lottery.
“No Homosexuality is exactly the same as Islamic ideology”
Twice the bigot, half the brains! Good on you ForeSkinner.
Skinner is one person where the inferiority complex if actually fully deserved.
I somewhat agree with what you write–not about Islamic ideology since that is a fiction created by Western media and political machinery. But if you mean to say that homosexuality has become a monolithic structure in which free-thinking individuals cannot detract, critque or change except within the paradigms of “coming out” or trans operations, I must agree with you then. I have seen great wrath handed to to those who fall in love with someone of the opposite sex and are labelled “traitors” to the cause…as if being gay means abiding by certain rules & codes.
Case in point is the reaction your post is given here. It is rather sad that we must all agree or be insulted. I didn’t sign up for this. Being gay does not mean being part of a cult of conformism. I take it that you mean “escape” metapohorically and somewhat ironically. It is hard to tell between the insults about “Christian drivel” whilst if there were a same sex wedding held in Westminster people would cheer the church
A report on the “Leper Conference’ appeared today:
Approximately 20 people in attendance, aged between 50 and 70…
This article is so badly written that I mistrust it as much as this conference. But then why get so upset? That a private group of people in a country where homosexuals have all the rights of heterosexuals want to convert willing convertees threatens nobody. Tangentially, to start critiquing a conference based on such a shoddily written article AND not having attended it presents a similar bigotry that many here claim this conference portends.
Why not attend and dialogue? Or better, yet–why not ignore these folks altogether? I get to live freely in this society & I do not need that everyone likes my sexuality or speak “positively” about my choices. It is a VERY slippery slope of prescribing who can have which opinions or which sexual proclivities. These people have zero political relevance and should be allowed to convene. I don’t want them coming to my gay bar protesting my right to convene gayfully. Let them think and say what they wish. I see it all as very queer!
I have the great misfortune to live in a country where there are no rights for homosexuals.
Unfortunately, in the county where I live homosexuals are pointed out, are seen as crazy people or freaks, are beaten by others for the mere fact that they are homosexuals, can under no circumstance integrate into society.
There is not even a cafeteria or a pub for homosexuals.
If you have also felt discriminated or wish to make an act of charity, please help me with any amount of money you can so that I may meet my objective to put together the amount of euro 8,000-10,000 required for immigration.