This crap should be illegal and, as for the state funding this and any other religious based institution, that should be illegal too.
There should be a complete separation of state and church (or synagogue or mosque …) thus religion should not be involved in the decision making of running schools or the curriculum …
At best, it is naive to include JONAH in the teaching material if the school did not intend it to be taken as promotion of JONAH’s approaches … and to endorse it is wrong …
I find it hard to believe that educated people could not predict that such a link would be made … thus, I have to consider that there may well have been a malicious motivation behind the inclusion …
Whilst I welcome the school discussing homosexuality … it sounds as though there are good reasons to be concerned about the content of the lesson … furthermore, I welcome the review of the lesson by the school – but a) such a review should never have been needed, the errors should not have been made first time … b) if they missed the errors when designing the lesson (whether by naivety or malicious nature) – how will ..
… they be able to reach a reasonable decision this time?
Wow, we’re even looked down on by the ghoys? What have we ever done to any of these people?
Nothing – it is another example of religion bleating it’s last breath of hatred and intolerance – you’d think Jews would have learnt by now -
“You’d think Jews would have learnt by now”, what a disgusting comment!!
How is it disgusting? The Jewish community like the black community has suffered much at the hands of other races, creeds etc and yet instead of them showing compassion to another marginalised group they instead set about denigrating us. Jews can go suck the big one.
That’s a gross generalisation. There are plenty of Jewish people who are not homophobic. There are plenty of Jewish LGBT organisations. Your attitude of lumping in all Jewish people together and tarring them all with the same brush as a result of the fact that certain individual Jewish people are homophobic amounts to anti-Semitism.
Yes but this ‘faith’ school has been engaging in child abuse and psychological terrorism if they have been pedding the dangerous lie that homosexuality can be cured.
They are religious – you cannot expect reason from people who choose to believe (despite a complete lack of evidence for their absurd beliefs) that an omnipotent sky-fairy invented the world in 6 days (and then took day 7 off for rest and relaxation).
How very ignorant and pompous. That’s not what religion states. There are many strands of religious learning In the same way that any piece of literature has multiple interpretations.
Do you accept that all religion is based on delusion and fiction?
Or do you believe in the Tooth Fairy (ooops I meant ‘God’)?
I believe in neither. It is a false choice. You have shown your own delusion and lack of learning. Again.
I said elsewhere that your interpretation of religion is that there is a superhuman being who created the universe. That is a false concept and is easy to knock-down. It shows your lack of knowledge of religion.
But as to evidence, it is well argued and shown that science itself must rest on theory and faith – as argued by Karl Popper and Michael Polyani. Any suggestion of objective scientific truth would be deprecated by Emmanual Kant or David Hume.
Even Einstein’s theories were accepted in the absence of evidence – such as the third prediction that due to the sun’s mass, the consequent reduction in the velocity of light would affect the quantity of light emitted by it – was not confirmed until more than forty years afterwards. Current theories on string remain theories with which we have to work.
But aside from all of that, religion is not a scientific but a personal endeavour. One does not look for facts or rationality in art or literature or music but truth and meaning.
de Villiers, “it is well argued and shown that science itself must rest on theory”, THAT IS WHAT SCIENCE IS, YOU MORON! All theories in science are evidence-based – which is why scientific findings are endlessly refined, much to the delight of religious chumps who believe it to be a sign of their implicit weakness – morons. “…[science itself must rely on] faith”. Bunkum – utter bo!!ocks. Einstein’s THEORIES were only theories, not FACT, until they could be (and were) proved. At least science relies evidence, unlike the bibble which relies on its adherents being ignorant enough not to ask ANY questions and to be awed by god and not by the answer.
How unpleasant and aggressive you are. Perhaps you should go for a run.
Here we go it wasn’t me i reckon it Rinaldo or w6.
DO you actually know what goy means? You don’t know how to spell it and you seem to think it means a Jewish person, but it actually means the opposite (i.e. a non-Jew). Your ignorance is multi-layered.
Someone is using my name its sad ,
If you use a unique Avatar – it is much more difficult for you to be impersonated …
Is this school in receipt of state funding?
If so then how can its funding be stopped until a proper inquiry has occurred?
It is completely unacceptable to ask taxpayers to subsidise lunacy like this.
Faith schools have no right to engage in religiously inspired dangerous quackery like trying to ‘cure’ gays.
The school is state funded yes, but the religious education (which this lesson formed part of) is paid for by the parents of the pupils. As the article clearly states.
Luckily most of the pupils parents were disgusted by this lesson as well!
Here we go again – The arrogance of Jews is astonishing – they claim to be a race – when they are just another globally despised faith like all the other ‘god’ peddlers –
UNLIKE all religions who choose their faith by birth or by training – Gays are born -
Jews do not claim to be a ‘race’. Their enemies call them that. They are a faith bonded by kinship. I am an atheist, and I reckon that we atheists rank pretty high in the arrogance league tables, As do antisemites like JD.
It is not arrogance however to regard someone who believes in a ‘god’ as an idiot.
Especially seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of ‘god’.
I don’t know how the earth came into being (big bang theory, black holes etc etc). But I do not believe that this ‘god’ thing invented it unless it can be proven by rational scientific or astronomical means.
I am 34 years old. If I still believed in Father Christmas and the Tooth-fairy people would regard me as being certifiably insane.
Yet people who believe in the ‘god’ thing are supposed to be given respect.
Don’t make me laugh.
Very ignorant David. You do not understand the subject on which you are pontificating. There can never be scientific proof of god. But there can be no scientific proofs in any form or art or literature.
There’s no proof of the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist does that mean you believe in him to?
JD, YOUR arrogance is astonishing!
I suspect that they have routinely offered this material in the past without much comment, and are panicking over being caught out. They are plainly very embarrassed and the heat should be kept up.
In terms of the wider issue, faith schools should not receive public funding. Period.
I went to JFS and just think it’s important to put this in the context of how the Jewish Studies lessons are run. The lessons are almost all discussion based, often on fairly controversial topics, with the teacher steering the discussions to different areas but largely led by the debate between students.
Some people are jumping to the conclusion that these sites were being promoted as part of a lesson on how to ‘cure gays’. Rather the site would have appeared in passing on a slide showing the breadth of opinions within Judaism from the mainstream to the more extreme views.
The lessons are run like this with the genuine intention of trying to provide food for thought and make students think about the issues themselves. I for one didn’t know Jewish organisations like JONAH existed before all this so if the school is (as I do believe it was) just pointing out the organisations existence and letting people decide for themselves what they thought of it isn’t it the right thing to do?
“We discussed whether someone chooses to be gay or not.”
It is completely inappropriate for a teacher to engage in this type of discussion regardless of the ethos of the school.
Did the teacher emphasise that according to all psychiatric and medical boards that homosexuality is a completely normal and natural part of life which exists in all species, regardless of whatever the jewish BuyBull says?
If so then the teacher is clearly an unsuitable person to be teaching children and should be suspended from his/her post (along with the suspension of all state funding for this school) until a proper investigation has been completed.
And I agree that faith schools should not receive state funding.
If parents want their children to be taught in a faith school then they should damn well pay for it themselves.
The teacher should lay down the key facts and then lead a discussion, keeping it within appropriate parameters. The fact that homosexuality is not a choice and is a natural trait should have been given and discussions progressed from there.
I agree that we do not choose our orientation – and the idea that we might is laughable given evidence …
However, some people do seem to believe that orientation is a choice …
Given that the myth of our orientation being a choice exists surely it is appropriate to encourage young people to discuss the concept and put forward arguments (and evidence – where it exists on either side) in an honest debate …It helps their thought processes develop and be able to maintain a well thought out argument later …
I have no problem whatsoever in the school facilitating this debate …
I do have a problem in them appearing (whether naively or maliciously) to endorse JONAH …
That was wrong …
Of course religious groups should not fund state schools, but currently they do … so whilst they exist we have to do the best with what we have whilst seeking to change what we have …
Debate is good, properly facillitated debate is good … it needs to be balanced though.
A ‘debate’ about whether homosexuality is a choice is not a debate – it is child abuse and psychological terrorism.
There is not a shred of evidence that sexual orientation is a choice. All psychiatric and medical organisations agree that homosexuality is innate and exists in every species of animal.
Therefore to even facilitate a discussion about whether homosexuality is a choice means tha tthis school should not be teaching children.
Stu – Totally agree! I don’t think the intention is to endorse JONAH but rather just draw attention to its existence which is important so long as the students are allowed to formulate their own judgement on it.
I guess it’s also important to point out that these sorts of, more controversial, debates only happen in later years in the school (this was to 17-18 year olds).
Whether this justifies the state funding or not is up to you but just wanted to point out the way state funding is provided. State funding pays for all secular education but any religious education is paid for via a parental voluntary contribution.
I fully agree homosexuality is not a choice … and that there is a significant volume of credible evidence to support this …
It does not mean that people disagree with the concept …
Schools and parents have a responsibility to educate children how to contend with such propositions … how to debate …
Provided the evidence is available to demonstrate the reality – and provided the content that the school introduce is evdienced and explained in terms of relevance etc, I would encourage young people to be encouraged to show how to debate and argue both the right side of the argument (and understand how to argue for something which you do not believe) … thats how I learned to debate – in school, we were put on opposite sides and had to argue (sometimes for something we did not believe in) … It was always ended with the teacher summing up the debate and the real evidence (and intervening if something unfactual was purported as truth for too long without contradiction)
Correction does not mean that people do not disagree …
“(and evidence – where it exists on either side)”
There is only one side with factual scientific evidence. The other side just has an opinion based on a religious text.
A better debate would be whether it’s right to harass people who were born a certain way because of your beliefs which they may or may not share.
Thats my point – evidence where it exists on either side …
We know there is only a tissue of lies that claim to be evidence of the myth that orientation is a choice …
Debate is a good way of exposing that …
At 16 my knowledge of LGBT scientific evidence was low … I would have benefitted from a debate such as this … provided the real evidence was shown, and “so called evidence” was exposed for the tissue of lies that it is …
We have nothing to fear from debate – as long as the facts are demonstrated …
The debate you propose would also be good …
It still does not stop me from believeing that when I was 16 I would have benefitted from a similar debate (provided it was managed appropriately and honest). I believe others today could also benefit.
I do not believe (from how it is reported) that the way the JFS managed the debate was either honest or appropriate.
I don’t know Stu if you’d have benefited from this debate at sixteen or just benefited from better science lessons…
I agree with you debate is important but the topic of debate has to be considered, I don’t think it’s appropriate to debate the validity of the views of racists for example.
“Then there was the concluding voice of ‘the Jewish view’”
This sentence chills me it’s a Jewish school teaching children how to be good Jews and apparently the “Jewish view” is a condemnation of homosexuality.
“At the end, we were asked what we thought about religious Jews who might hate themselves because their religion condemns being gay.”
Ok… and then bam the JONAH website… Nice timing! If you are feeling a bit queer kids go and see the people who have the “cure”. It seems to be implied that is the solution suggested in order to be a good Jew.
It doesn’t seem all that balanced to me, or, evidently, to the students who walked out.
I obviously havent had enough clarity in what I said, so I shall try again …
I may have benefitted from a similar debate that was handled by the school appropriately, honestly, in a balanced manner and with integrity
I do not believe that is how JFS have handled this …
I’m an ex student, and yes, they have. This is just the first time it’s been leaked. I had an absolute nightmare at the school when I came out- I was bullied by both students and staff and the school even made me take hormone tests!
This school needs to have it’s state funding stopped.
Why are British taxpayers funding child abuse?
Thank you for your feedback
I certainly feel that your explanation that this is not a unique event lends strong weight to the need for the Dept of Education and/or OfSted to review the position of this school.
Seems disingenuous to say the least.
“Ooops, did an ex-gay therapy centre advert crop up in our powerpoint discussion about Judaism and homosexuality? How could that have got in there?”
That’s about as offensive to us as if someone invited Mel Gibson and a bottle of whisky to address them on the topic of coming to terms with their jewish identity.
Telling a vulnerable young LGBT person that their sexual orientation or gender identity is a ‘choice’ or that it can be ‘prayed away; or even allowing such lies to be discussed, needs to be regarded as psychological terrorism.
Just because these are ‘faith’ schools does not give them the right to abuse children in this way.
I agree, these attempts at “turning” or ex-gay conversion filth are what amounts to a form of sexual abuse, of children especially but also of vulnerable adults, it needs to be recognised as the sexual abuse and interference that it really is.
So Alex, you believe that letting Jewish students be taught about JONAH the Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality is a harmless group merely existing to encourage debate about life issues. Dream on….Pure religious bigotry yet again.
I agree debate is good …
I believe exposing young people to JONAH is bad …
A discussion about whether being gay is a choice is not debate. It is child abuse.
How do you propose that young people are given the knowledge to effectively deal with those who do purport that homosexuality is a choice …
How do you propose equipping them to ensure that they can hold their own in debate with those who seek to perpetuate bigotry?
In that sense in school debate on controversial subjects is an incredibly important thing …
It needs to be handled well, sensitively and with leadership … something JFS have done …
It seems your proposal is not to equip young people to be able to handle bigoted comments … that is a worrying and dangerous approach to take …
I think the real problem is the partial exposure of the Jewish students to this group. The full exposure would inform them that one of the founders of JONAH is Arthur Abba Goldberg, who defrauded several US municipalities of millions of dollars. His son and the son of the other founder (female, can’t remember the name) are actually gay. The son of the female lives a fine gay life in NYC. At the same time, a lot of materials pushed on its web site by and relied on by JONAH were actually written by Christian Evangelical fundamentalists (without psychiatric degrees or with spotty reputations of their own).
The allegations of abuse by JONAH counselor should also be mentioned. It’s all part and parcel of the story and including this would be full airing of JONAH’s dirty laundry. And I think it would seriously help in the discussion.
Oh how quickly the Jew forgets!!! How can they now sit and discriminate against us Gays just like Hitler discriminated against them??? Hypocrits!! The Jewish people ask the world to never forget the Holocast maybe its the Jewish people who need not forget what was done through discrimination!!!!!
Okay, you need to get over this. I’m Jewish and Gay, and Fight for both my causes. Just as there are extremist gays that gag when they think about straight people, there are extremist jews, christians etc who believe that homosexuality is against their beliefs…..Just because some Muslim people blow up planes, doesn’t mean we can generalise. So get off your antisemite horse, go grab a douche and take a time out Mr.
Both causes? LMAO. No ones being anti-semitic..yet…but there’s good reason to be when the ghoys start chastising gays.
Do you condemn the abhorrent behaviour of this faith school in allowing this psychological terrorism against the gay community to take place within its walls?
Do you agree that state funding to this school needs to be suspended until a proper investigation has been launched,
Judaism is a freely chosen, completely voluntary belief system.
And if this jewish school is engaging in child abuse (telling an LGBT child that their sexual orientation is a choice is both child abuse and psychological terrorism) then it needs to be shut down for the good of society in general.
I take it that you agree that this is a very fair and reasonable approach. If not then you are defending sickening bigotry and wilful stupidity.
Psychological terrorism? You do not even know what happened. And history shows that Jews are born – it is racial, as Hitler agreed when he murdered six million of them. You are engaging in wilful bigotry, ignorance and stupidity.
@Proudremembered, re-read what you have said! It sounds like shocking anti-Semitism. You are just a hypocrite. Do you really genuinely think that all Jewish people are homophobic or when you actually sit and engage your brain and think about it can you come to terms with the reality that many Jewish people are not homophobic, many do remember who the victims of the holocaust were and feel solidarity as a result, many even belong to LGBT organisations and are even gay themselves. OK so there is an extremist minority within the Jewish faith who are homophobic and deserve criticism, but to generalise like you did and refer to “the Jew” is sickening. You have no regard for the facts at all, for example Liberal Judaism is one of the largest faith groups campaigning in favour of marriage equality in the UK.
“the Jew” – that is quite chilling. Like “the gay” or “the Muslim”, it turns a human being into a thing. At the risk of invoking Godwin’s law, this is the first step on a very slippery slope. I always find it depressing when a group of people who are targets of bigotry, who have experienced the violence and oppression that arises from bigotry, exhibit bigotry of their own. It doesn’t matter whether it is black people being homophobic, or gay people being racist, it’s disappointing and worrying. We rally should know better.
I agree bigotry of any sort is wrong and needs exposing …
Unfortunately some people are so (understandably) focussed on stamping out and challenging bigotry that affects them in their minority that they become blinkered to and unaware (and sometimes in denial of) their own bigtory towards other minority groups – and often there is overlap between different minority groups …
Disappointing and lacks any credence of the equality that all who seek to stamp out bigotry claim to endorse.
I was in the lesson that caused this controversy and I can assure you all this is complete bollocks.
The website was presented as what SOME Jews believe, then the discussion moved on to how morally incorrect we all felt it to be.
If there were any gay students in the class then I believe they would have felt good knowing how all their classmates believe this kind of idea is dangerous and innately wrong.
That makes sense to me…
Any gay guy in the class would be alerted to the existence of gay cure organizations and how much harm they do.
What 17-18 year olds need to know is that homosexuality and bisexuality are perfectly normal and natural aspects of sexuality, and that gay rights are human rights.
Incidentally, religion and government should be completely separate in a Democracy.
The trouble is tough that such a person would be taught that the particular set of backward fairy tales their parents wanted them to be indoctrinated into (Christian, Muslim or Jewish) views homosexuality and bisexuality as anything but normal. This is a of course an argument against all “faith” schools which do so much much to damage us as an integrated secular society. I agree with Dawkins that to force a religion on your child is a form of child abuse and I sympathise with Ben for having his parents force such nonsense on him.
Exactly. Ideally, all education should be secular, and religions taught as a human phenomenon.
Also, forcing a religion on a child, especially if it involves child baptism, is the same as imposing membership in a political party on a child, and I personally believe it should be outlawed.
Ironically, as someone pointed out above, it does happen that faith schools are among the best in the UK, a country where church and state are hopelessly intertwined in the first place.
Still, objective sociological and anthropological research have confirmed the conclusion that homosexuality and bisexuality have appeared, and continue to appear, everywhere on earth so that ambisexuality can be said to have played an important role in the evolution and survival of humanity, and that only the Abrahamic religions have introduced deadly homophobia as a divine command, seriously damaging the development of civilization until the present day.
While I support your general position, I would like to point something out.
The problem with your argument is that it doesn’t reflect the reality of a Jewish life. Jews – especially closer to the Orthodox side – actually read all first 5 books of the Bible every year. I read the line about a man lying with another men at the age of 11. (To be honest it did not scare me then and it doesn’t scare me now.) So, this class really taught nothing new to the teens who have already gone several times through the Bible. What it did provide is the ability to hear the positive point of view of their sexuality endorsed by their friends and classmates.
I think the problem is that on many issues – not just here – everyone of us comes with our own preconceptions.
Ben – can I suggest you get in touch with Keshet UK http://www.facebook.com/KeshetUK and tell them your perspective.
I am pleased the class responded that way, and that should be more widely realised. It certainly accords with what I have heard in the past. I am also unhappy with some of the sweeping anti Jewish / anti religion statements on here.
Nonetheless if this is a reflection of how the school approaches the subject this needs to be addressed. The risks from both the therapy and the promotion of it are in fact all against halachah. It is wrong to do something which promotes hatred or dehumanises part of hashem’s creation. It is wrong to to do something which might encourage someone to do harm to themselves or others. It is wrong to weaken connections within the jewish community. It is wrong to shame people in public.
Someone is using my name. Ignore any posts I will not be back until there are proper logins
If the subject of homosexuality is discussed in school, then the students should be provided with information about “ex-gay” organizations – always INCLUDING the information that they are fraudulent and potentially harmful.
A actually I will be back and I will use random name and post rubbish
As a student who was present in this lesson I feel it is my obligation to defend the school as I do not believe that the lesson’s content was inappropriate at all. Taken out of context, obviously hearing that students were directed to a ‘get help’ for being homosexual website obviously sounds ridiculous and discriminatory, however this was not how the website was presented to us at all. The teacher explicitly stated that it is wrong to be homophobic and that gay feelings should not be repressed as they are accepted. The link was purely presented to us and we were told ‘some Jews believe this..’. We did not even enter the website. The school is home to numerous diverse students and does not deserve the awful publicity it is receiving from whichever over-sensitive student wrote to the JC.
Jews are know for their involvment with psychiatry which is a scam and a fraud on the people not to mention gay people as well. Jews also have been know to be less than honest like most religions who have been exposed for their crimes like the Catholic pedophiles. The truth is they do promote hate towards gays and everybody knows it no matter how they try to cover it up. It is time to really investigate the Jewish religion for their involvement in the “gay cure” business for money. Then the Christians for their crimes against gays which are crimes against humanity world wide. It is time to expose who is making money off of harming and killing gays in the name of the Jewish and Christian religion. We already know the Muslims murder gays to get rid of them. this madness needs to end and again for the Jews to be involved in the same thing or similar thing to what was done to them in the 1930′s and 40′s is beyond belief. A horrible history that is not even a 100 year old. Shame on the Jews
As an openly gay and Jewish man I was completely appalled by this story, and the fact that the defence from the JFS management did nothing to appease me, but in fact made me more angry. However the hatred and antisemitism that is being expressed on this comments page is equally as disgusting.
I strongly believe that the orthodox Jewish community needs to completely re think its attitude to LGBT issues and concerns, particularly in educational establishments. I also think that members of the LGBT community should think more carefully before they tar the entire religious world as homophobic, or indeed as William seems to want to as pedophiles is disgraceful.
To think that I can go from being a proud gay Jewish man to being ashamed of both of my communities in 24 hours!
I think the manner this debate has been handled by JFS is appalling …
I think the media response from JFS is outrageous and demonstrates a lack of empathy and compassion to LGBT people …
I think the anti-semetism on these threads is disgraceful and entirely out of place and context …
It is not anti-semitic however to state that the jewish holy book (like the christian BuyBull and Qu’ran) are badly written works of fiction for idiots.
I personally think the choice of language you use is wrong, inflammatory and devious
I think other comments on these threads have been demonstrably anti semetic and bigoted
I must say that the implied holocaust comparison is highly inappropriate, no matter what has been stated. Also the subtle hint of a Jewish conspiracy concerning psychiatry is the similar kind of cr@pulence spouted by the same right-wingers who believe that the campaign for homosexual rights is nothing more than a predatory political agenda with the ambition to do harm to society.
However I daresay that sort of idiocy was not meant to this extent, even if it was written.
William, it’s primarily the orthodox and hassidim who are the most fervent in supporting discrimination against us. Liberal, Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism are not. Even some conservative congregations aren’t against us. Not all Christians are our enemies. Be careful painting every religion with the same brush. There are exceptions in all. They are the ones we need to support and encourage to speak out. As for orthodox Jews, clearly they haven’t learned the lesson from the holocaust, many of them have no sympathy that 15,000 or more gay men died in the holocaust either. An extremely sad commentary on them. They’re the one who should be deeply ashamed and reminded.
Teaching that gayness is curable should most certainly NOT be state funded! This needs to be looked into.
At the same time, preaching hate against others (as we saw in 2-3 uncommentable articles on the death call leaflets) should be given preason.
Even though this has been taken out of context, the Jewish Education is not state funded for and is run by voluntary contributions. The rest of the school however is run by taxes
EVERYONE LISTEN UP.
firstly, enough with the anti semitism, its the equivalent to homophobia.
I am not gay, yes i am jewish.
i was in the class at the time.
The teacher was telling us the old fashioned views of the jewish attitude to homophobia. The teachers were doing their job. I agree that the jewish view is wrong.
half the class walked out at how disgusting this was.
appreciate your input, Jordan…
Thank you for your input Jordan. It is obviously very helpful to hear from someone who was actually in the room when this happened.
I do have a question for you though.
Do you think that a young person who chose to come out as being LGBT or indeed questioning their sexuality would receive support from the JFS staff and feel that they were in a safe space at the school?
If it was put in the context of something the school didn’t endorse which has caused widespread controversy and the class was a more mature age bracket I could sort of see the point of it taken simply as a case study, in the same way that a history class might contextualise Hitler’s notions about the masterrace.
But leaving it as a final slide for the class to explore in their own time would be grossly irresponsible without that caveat.
I bet you anything that this is all happening with American hate groups’ infiltration in the UK. Their next target is stopping same-sex marriage.
well it’s not much different from the BBC website polling
‘should gays be executed?’
Yah! very thought provoking
The fact of the matter is this garbage should NOT be open for discussion. I take particular exception to state funded schools promoting such a discussion, like it’s an option or something.
It strikes me that the claim by the school that provocative titles are used to stimulate debate is as flimsy as the claims of irony or edginess used by comedians to excuse their homophobic rants.
The anti semitism here is disgusting and revealing. People have posted messages saying that blacks and Jews have suffered but oppress others – as if we can deny individuality of Jews and those of other ethnic origin.
It is also gross hypocrisy. As gay persons, we can point to much suffering and oppression of gay persons – but then on this board gay posters seek to do the same to Jews.
Sometimes the only freedom people want, including David and James!, is the freedom to oppress others.
dAVID hates all religions (you surely must have noticed from his other comments on other articles) so I fail to see why you have singled him out as “anti-semetic”, there is no such word for his anti-christian/morman/scientology/whatever views.
He’s just extremely opinionated atheist who can admittedly be quite rude and abrupt. At least he is consistent.
dAVID certainly is consistent … and almost (not entirely) always rude and abrupt … Aggressive and lacking self awareness would be other descriptors that I would use …
I would say dAVID is anti-religion … and that probably (in some ways) makes him anti-semetic … but probably not any more than he is anti (I presume any other) religion
All that put to one side … That does not stop some of the horrendous anti semetic and inappropriate comments on this thread …
Anti semetism is bigotry
Homophobia is bigotry
Racism is bigotry
Transphobia is bigotry
Sexism, agesism, anti disabled comments, etc etc are all bigotry
NO bigtory regardless of type is jsutifiable or acceptable in a tolerant and inclusive society …
I know anti-semitism is wrong. I believe in a freedom of religion and a total separation of church and state. This state funded school is abhorrent to me it’s no excuse for anti-Semitism.
This website seems full of bigots, there are racists Islamaphobes, homophobes, sexist, trans bashers, anti-Semites etc etc on any given day.
I’ve also noticed there is a lot of people who cry racism when it isn’t there, transphobia when it isn’t there and anti-Semitism on any article regarding Israel when it’s not necessarily present. It’s reminds be somewhat of American politicians who call people who challenge them communists, socialists or anti-American.
To reiterate my earlier point dAVID is a passive aggressive atheist (consistent in his distaste for all religions) pointing the anti-Semitism finger at him is redundant. Wtf knows about James!
I agree that the racist card and various other cards including the anti semetic card are pulled out with remarkable frequency on this site … sometimes appropriately because of the range of bigots that do seem to flock here from time to time (or frequently depending on which particular one) …. equally the cards are used wrongly, inappropriately and with venom on many occasions and that is almost as wrong as the bigotry …
I would put one point here. People talk about bigotry against religious beliefs as if it were the same thing as racism or homophobia. It isn’t. Religious belief is a lifestyle choice (as obviously being gay or black is not). You make a choice (and a bloody silly one it is too) to be, for example, Catholic or Orthodox Jewish . It is a state of mind you are free to leave the sect at any time. More robust criticism of practice in religious sects that are fundamentally anti-gay is justified because you have made a (for want of a better word) “intellectual” choice to belong.
Religion is not a choice but a calling. It is like saying one ‘chooses’ the person with whom we fall in love. And even if it were a choice, in a democratic society, choices are to be protected.
Or that one ‘chooses’ the music, art or literature to which we are attracted.
Religion is a choice not “a calling”.
However, people should have the right to believe what they like, as long as they understand that others have the right to believe something else entirely.
It’s about respecting other people and you generally don’t get much respect from people if call their beliefs “bloody silly”. That’s usually the point at which they stop listening.
I understand your frustration Harry because the respect afforded to gay people by religion seems to be lacking.
Indeed it is a choice (re religion)
and Indeed orientation and race are not choices …
Indeed the choice of religion is something that should be open to challenge and scrutiny …
Robust criticism may form part of the scrutiny …
However, there is a distinct difference between robust criticism and some of the hatred and anti-semetism on these threads …
@Stu/ I do not dissent from what you say (and the idea that religion is not a choice is frankly ludicrous, just as it is ludicrous to suggest that marrying is something any different from a choice). Anti-Semitism, stirring hatred, as opposed to rational argument and a degree of ridicule, is a no-no – and some postings do get a bit too close for my liking.
Absolutely, rational argument has to be the the way ahead …
Rational argument (generally) wins most, if not all, arguments …
When it slips to hatred or excessive and extreme ridicule then no matter how good and rational the argument being used, the person using the hatred etc has lost the argument … they demean the rationality of the argument they have and undermine their side of the debate …
Religion is hitachi ice Inge conventional sense of the word. We do not choose the foods we like, the politics we adopt, the music that moves us, the literature that interests us. We find these things but we do not consciously choose them. It is the same with religion. We do not ‘choose’ our views, we find them after careful consideration.
Religion is not a choice in the conventional sense of the word. We do not choose the foods we like, the politics we adopt, the music that moves us, the literature that interests us. We find these things but we do not consciously choose them. It is the same with religion. We do not ‘choose’ our views, we find them after careful consideration.
Well I don’t know about you …
I choose which politician and political party I vote for … I look at all the issues and what both the party and candidate says and make a judgement …
I do not follow a party line of political issues like a robot following a single party, I am able to evaluate what I believe to be important and make judgements based on considersation of facts and evidence …
I also made my decision that I am agnostic on the basis of evidence and facts and my experience ..
We do choose to try new foods and our tastes may vary with age – through experience and judgement … (as with politics and ideological issues) ….
We do not choose our sex, orientation, race etc
We DO choose our ideology, food, fashion, religious beliefs (or not to have them) … they are choices we make after balancing facts …
We choose to try foods but we do not choose if we like them or not. Taste is beyond control save where a deliberate attempt is made over a long term to appreciate and learn particular flavours.
I vote for the party which is closest to my politics, which I have adopted having been persuaded. I did not choose to be persuaded by one economic theory over another – it is that one appeared ore correct than another. I did not ‘will’ myself to one over another.
These are not ‘choices’ in the conventional sense – or if they are they demonstrate how little free will we have. Our sexuality, people we love, humour that we find funny, religious persuasion, colour, gender, race – all shape our lives powerfully in ways that we cannot control.
Choice is an illusion, for the most part. Our decisions are shaped powerfully by tastes and desires, including matters intellectual, over which we have limited control.
I should that it is difficult to believe in free will whilst also accepting evolution.
I have to say that I am totally at odds with your philosophy on life …
Politics and Religion are definite choices
Examples of which are people crossing the house and changing political allegiances or converting from one religion to another or deciding not to follow a faith and become either agnostic or atheist …
They are choices – your philsophical approach to life may be different to accepting that these are choices, but it does not change the fact that they are.
Well of course a political party is a choice as are tactics, I suppose, although one would choose what thought would work best rather than just choosing for the sake of making a choice. The underlying philosophies are not so much chosen but adopted after having been persuaded.
When people change or leave religion, it is not a choice like having apple juice instead of orange. It is involuntary. I know people who changed branches of the church or who declared themselves atheists after much anguish, soul searching and heartache. They were not a choice like what sandwich to buy for lunch but a ‘decision’ to which they were driven, involuntarily, by the power of their thought, intellect and emotion. They moved to adopt the position that they thought they must.
However much soul searching and angst ridden moments of internal debate have occurred – a choice is still make (sometimes with regret) to alter ones religion, politics or allegiance …
There is no excuse for the anti semantics expressed here.
deVilliers is an idiot.
It is a perfectly valid opinion to regard religious belief as moronic.
If some cult wants to be allowed babble crap about ‘god’ then I’m sure as hell allowed to call them an idiot.
In fact deVilliers is an anti-atheist bigot which is just as bad as being an anti-semite (although seeing as he’s a ‘god’-botherer he probably thinks he’s allowed
You are entirely wrong, David. And unoriginal.
I have nothing against those who choose to be atheists – after all it is a personal choice. I have not criticised anyone for choosing not to believe in God. I have criticised the attacking of those who do – like you, who spew more venom than any person I know.
I have also repeated, several times, the importance of the secular state as a pillar of liberty and democracy. But sadly, you have chosen not to read or understand that.
A big difference between me and you, David, is that I am genuinely liberal in that a person’s personal choices are for them whereas the state should act by secularity. Everyone can decide personal matters for themselves. You, however, wish to attack and destroy people’s personal views. You want not so much to decide matters for yourself but to decide them for everyone else as well.
That is what makes you poisonous, illiberal and fascist.
I strongly disagree with some of your arguments but defend to the end your right to make them …
I agree with some of the (underlying) arguments of dAVID but abhor the manner he makes them …
His lack of acceptance of others making choices demonstrates his extremism … he certainly regularly borders on the edge of hatred (and sometimes seeps into it) …
Blah. Blah. Blah.
Yet another intelligent and insightful response from dAVID
The man who thinks Cameron leads an apartheid government and faith schools are terrorists ….
It makes me amazed that with views such as that, that occasionally he can say something relevant
I was a student at the school and I’m appalled. Having said this, I’m also saddened by the comments on this article. These also fail to offer support to students struggling with their sexuality within a faith context, and some LGBT young people do not want to leave Judaism just because of their sexuality or gender choices. The comments which are aggressively anti-religion agree with the perspective of JONAH – you have to choose, be religious or be gay. This is NOT the case, there are loads of ways to be Jewish and gay. If you are a Reform or Liberal Jew, Rabbis are expected to perform Jewish marriages for homosexual couples. The first orthodox gay marriage happened in November and here’s to many more. What is so problematic is that the school failed to include organisations like Keshet in their presentation. There are ways to be BOTH Jewish and gay.4 Both the school, and the anti-religious comments on this article, perpetuate a position which causes young LGBT Jews pain.
To those who are saddened or angered by the anti-semitic comments on the board, can I offer up a happy thought: those comments are without fail the lowest rated comments here, often to the extent that they are auto-hidden by the system.
It’s not perfect (and the misuse of others’ names is really disturbing, as James! points out), but at least it gives an indication that the majority of PinkNews readers are decent, not-discriminatory people.
I don’t understand why any faith school should get state funding.
Schools should teach and churches should teach religion.
Education should be a state function provided as part of its secularity, involving the prohibition of religious symbols and the mixing of the sexes. It seems, however, that the history of England is that education was provided by the Anglican church and that up to one third of schools are church schools. There is also a strong tradition of fee paying schools, which I understood only after living here.
What is unfortunate is that the best schools in England seem to be either church schools or fee paying schools. My (non Caholic) partner and I are fortunate to be able to send our adopted son to a fee paying school but otherwise we would have tried to send him to the nearst Church of England school. It is all unsatisfactory.
May I ask how the (I assume Catholic) school views the son of a a same sex couple?
Generally I do not know. It would depend upon the school.
The concern, which I had in relation to the Catholic school near to us is that it might not be positive due to comments or difficulty from teachers.
I am not in favour of state-funded Catholic schools or any state funded religious schools. I am also not in favour of private fee-paying schools – up until the level of engineering school. I would prefer all education to be provided by the state.
I do not, obviously, disagree. I was just wondering whether you had some experience of sending your son (of a same sex couple) to a Catholic sectarian school and the way they reacted.
You think schools should all be single sex?
That’s interesting since boys do better in mixed sex schools.
Religious education should be made available in schools. ALL religions should be covered equally with no emphasis on any particular faith and religious beliefs should never be presented as fact.
No – I think that all schools should be mixed and should require the mixing of the sexes, especially during sport.
Sorry that our wires were crossed on this one…
I should add that it should be impossible for religious belief to be factual. It is not a factual exercise.
I know that, you know that but quite a lot of other people think that creationism triumphs over science and this is what they want to teach to children.
People like the Vardy Foundation – the main funders of both the Emmanuel Academies in the north east and the main funders of the Christian Institute (that well know bigoted organisation that refuses to be held to scrutiny by either non-Christians or other Christians) … Its predominantly funded by a group of evangelical millionaires from the north east … Clearly they have at least stretched if not broken charity law on their methods of politicising their beliefs … Its clearly a propaganda instrument to trumpet the bigoted beliefs of some rich vindicitive individuals …
Sociological education and ideological awareness is incredibly important in schools – but purely in a context of saying there are many belief sets out there … otherwise it is not an education matter
I agree Joss. It is ridiculous and requires those who do have belief to counter such arguments in a language that they understand. Even the Catholic church accepts evolution as being overwhelmingly supported by evidence.
Those posters to this website who oppose the state funding of so-called faith schols should lend their support to the gay Humanist charity the Pink Tringle Trust, the British Humanist Association and the National Secular Society. They campaign vigorously against such funding which is the policy of the current government.
Posters should also note that research conducted by Stonewall some time ago revealed that incidences of anti-gay bullying were a good deal higher in these schools than in ordinary state ones.
A better word, it has been suggested, than “faith” school is sectarian school.
I think we all know that the EDL and BNP clowns flock onto this site once an opportunity to stoke up racial disharmony is presented to them, this article unfortunately is no exception.
The school was wrong to legitimise JONAH by using it in the presentation. I doubt it will do so again given the widespread criticism the school has received. I’m sure the schools head had a call from the department of education spelling out what is expected of the school if it wants to remain state funded.
I would like to see a statement from the school condemning JONAH and the school needs to be monitored to ensure this NEVER happen again (even if ‘god’ tells them to.)
Anon wrote: “I’m an ex student, and yes, they have ( routinely offered this material in the past without much comment, and are panicking over being caught out.). This is just the first time it’s been leaked. I had an absolute nightmare at the school when I came out- I was bullied by both students and staff and the school even made me take hormone tests!”
Disgraceful that the school receives state funding to promote this hatred.
Relieved to hear they also teach desrimination is wrong. They must have forgotten a major part of thier history, when ‘pink triangle’ badge wearers stood alongside to ‘star of David’ badge wearers. State funding to support religious bigotory should be removed.
Lets face it. The idea is a conservative/orthodox religious view. It is also a theoretical one.
The fact that they are funded by the state is absurd not the fact that a school teaches things that you or I may not agree with.
Every parents has the right to send their child to the school of their choice.
Reason tends to win over, eventually.
6 downers. I’m with you. It still remains the same.
Ignore the troll Keith using yet another pseudonym (above).
This God of yours, does he have an email adress or facebook page?
I’d like to leave a message.
And if Jesus was to f*** Allah, would it be anally or vaginally?
Crucifixes can be used as sex toys apparently. In these times of recession, maybe it’s a good thing.
For a very alternative view please see http://www.liberaljudaism.org/news/459-rabbinic-conference-statement-on-jfs-lesson-controversy.html
That’s great Rabbi Aaron Goldstein, although it is a real pity that religious leaders don’t understand that first and foremost it is them and their religion that are conflicted and confused about homosexuality however much they try to project this onto individuals homosexuals.
Agreed. Confused, neurotic and paranoid.
Sounds like something my school would have tried to do if they could. They still had most of section 28 in their school code as of last year. I didn’t realise till just after I left the sixth form – I wouldn’t have stayed had I known!
I don’t get how any school, no matter how much of a ‘special case’ it may be, can get away with this, mine wasn’t even a faith school! This sort of attitude can seriously skew someone’s perception of homosexuality from a young age – It’s a good job I already hated the place, so this was just something I could add to the pile – I feel sorry for my closeted mates who never (and still haven’t) quite made it out.