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Amsterdam’s chief rabbi suspended over gay cure declaration

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  1. At least it’s good to know that the Dutch Jewish community is generally so progressive.

    1. GingerlyColors 19 Jan 2012, 7:06am

      Not just the Dutch Jewish community but the whole nation of Holland is progressive. It was the Dutch who were the first to introduce gay marriages (although the Danish brought in civil partnerships a few years before).

      1. Unluckily they have just got in a right wing government who will most likely hold them back.

    2. I can’t see how moving on from self imposed, superstitious, pseudo morality is progressive. Surely progressive means rejecting superstitious nonsense in the light of scientific understanding of the world. Homosexuality is normal and acceptable because we have a growing scientific understanding of human sexuality, not because God says it’s ok.

  2. R L Pete Housman 18 Jan 2012, 3:25pm

    I salute the jewish community of Amsterdam for your quick response and your rejection of a failed idea that homosexuality is something that can or should be fixed. Leadership which chooses to lead astray can only succeed when followers stay silent and refuse to embrace the truth. Thank you Amsterdam Jewish Community -God’s Blessings on you.

  3. I’m glad that the Dutch Jewish community has the strength of character to act when their leaders propose such dangerous and harmful fake remedies. The world over, more and more psychologists are making clear statements about the dangers of gay cure therapies and I wish more religious communities had the strength to speak out when their leaders make such misinformed and dangerous statements.

  4. He’s a religious person.

    So can anyone claim to be surprised that he is a bigotted pig?

    Religious people are usually monstrous bigots. Even the the cults which pretend to be tolerant and accepting work under the premise that their fictional ‘god’ thinks more highly of them because they follow the superstitions of some absurd cult.

    The Torah is as badly written, fictional and absurd as the BuyBull or the Koran.

    If people are going to belong to a religious cult based on a work of fiction then at least they should use a Jackie Collins book as the holy book. At least them it will have more relevance to 21st century life than the BuyBull, Torah or Koran.

    1. As usual dAVID can not see beyond the religion = bad in his eyes …

      Not even the fact that the Dutch Jews have acted swiftly to condemn the actions of the chief rabbi …

      dAVIDs extreme and predictable reactions are more disappointing than the Dutch Jewish community ….

      1. My reactions are not extreme,.

        I simply said that religious people are usually monstrous bigots.

        Perhaps I should have said that religious leaders are monstrous bigots – hateful, stupid, bigotted, small-minded, dangerous and extremist.

        That is not an extreme position. It is a very accurate position.

        1. dAVID

          You are being disingenuous …

          Every time you see a story that includes religion – whether or not there is a positive aspect to the story for LGBT people – you either find a way or portraying it to be negative or twisting it to appear negative …

          For example this story you concentrate purely on the negative aspect on the Rabbi, not on the positive aspect of the Holland Jewish community suspending the Rabbi (their figure head), a significant step and demonstration of support to LGBT people … To my mind the story is about one individual who is bigoted and the celebration of a community who stand up for LGBT rights – and the second aspect is much more significant.

          Also, you stereotype either ALL people of religion or all religious leaders as bad and wrong …

          An example quote from you in this story “He’s a religious person. So can anyone be surprised that he is a bigoted pig”, thus suggesting that all religious people are bigoted – or are we supposed to interpret …

          1. … this is a different way?

            You suggest you perhaps could have directed it to religious leaders rather than religious people. I can see where you might be approaching this from, nonetheless – some of the Jewish leaders have taken the responsible decision to suspend – surely that demonstrates not all leaders are the same, then you could add CofE leader Dr John who is considering legal action against the CofE.

            None of my comments should be taken as endorsing religion – there are bigots within religion … who abuse religion to demonise LGBT people – and that is categorically wrong.

            Equally there are extremists who see religion and assume that it is automatically evil and a bad thing.

            Extremists of either hue are often blind to their unfairness …

            I am not the only non-religious person on PN who has noticed your repeated knee jerk reactions …

            What was predominantly a positive story you twist to suit your anti-religious rhetoric…

            Sometimes that is justified, in this its not

          2. But I see absolutely no benefit for the individual or for society in believing in a fictitious ‘god’.

            So why on EARTH should I ever find something positive in something I believe to be intrinsically ridiculous?

            Belief in ‘god’ is worthy of no more respect than belief in the tooth-fairy. You agree with this right?

            So how am I being disingenious when I criticise cult activity?

            So some absurd cult decides to allow a Civil Partnership to take place in their cult building. So what? I still think people that believe in ‘god’ are wilfully stupid as they are believing in a supernatural being even though there is a complete lack of evidence for its existence.

            It is disingeious to celebrate that some instrinsically stupid cult behaves reasonably for a change.

            It does not alter the fact that the belief on which the cult is based remains intrinsciallty stupid.

            You’re a fierce defender of religious stupidity for someone who pretends to be an atheist Stu.

          3. David I’m not a fan of religion but you single minded hatred of it is definitely extremist I agree with you that a belief in god is almost like believe in unicorns etc, but at the same time I would not call someone evil and bigoted for there belief in a unicorn either. As the dutch jewish community has shown it is not evil or bigoted but merely one person in that community (and hell I’ve met bigoted gay people does that make all gay men bigoted) is I suggest you lay off the anti religion stuff and leave it till it is at least more fitting.

          4. @dAVID

            Your response to my comments demonstrates to anyone with any sense of fairness or impartiality that you are extreme in your views …

            Hamish has noticed it in this series of posts and many others (including me) have commented in it before …

            Now, your snide comment (copying Paddyswurds from last night) about me pretending to be an atheist …

            Lets make it perfectly clear, I have not pretended to be anything …

            I have never claimed to be an atheist – because I am not … I am agnostic …

            I despise many forms of religion, I find it illogical and wrong – but I strongly endorse and support the right of others to make the choice to have such beliefs … The two are not incompatable – and if you think they are it further evidences your extremism.

            The issue I find positive and welcome in this story is that the Dutch Jewish group suspended the Rabbi – that suspension is nothing to do with religion – its about human decency. Its about supporting LGBT people – and I welcome …

          5. … support for LGBT people (almost) regardless of where it comes from … more fool you, if you only accept it from people who are atheists …

            I do not respect the Jewish group in Holland because of their faith but because of their decision to suspend the Rabbi. I can separate the two things – unfortunately, it seems your extremism does not allow you the ability to judge any action of anyone having faith as being anything other than being a religion based issue – which is bizarre and prejudiced.

            If I am in a political party and I choose to suspend someone who works for the party because they have made racist comments, then that suspension is not due to political ideology but due to common decency and human integrity. The same is true in this instance. Its a shame your blinkers prevent you from seeing that and your seething anger blinds you.

    2. de Villiers 18 Jan 2012, 7:13pm

      And you David are a stubborn donkey.

      1. And you DeVilliers believe in ‘god’ despite the complete lack of evidence for its existence.

        1. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 7:13pm

          @’dAVID
          …………and loathe as I am to say it Stu, but claiming to be an agnostic is even worse than claiming atheism. More akin to cowardice, I’d say.
          Btw….I have no feelings one way or another about religion or those who profess it, but I will always have a go at those who use it to belittle me for the way their “god” supposedly made me or more sensibly the way nature made me.The quicker the sky fairy cult crowd get it into their heads that the tables are now turned and they should take all measures to hide their obvious stupidity and idiotic beliefs, the better for their cults survival and the good of mankind……….

          1. Agnosticism is not cowardice, Paddyswurds. It is in fact the only reasonable position, because religion and atheism have the same problem in common – they go beyond the evidence. Religion asserts supernatural beliefs that cannot be verified. Atheism asserts the intrinsically unprovable, ie, a negative. I cannot prove that pixies live under my elderberry tree; but nor can I prove that they do not.

          2. @Paddyswurds

            I do not “claim” anything …

            I *am* agnostic …

            I rely on evidence not eminence, and no one can prove to me the existence of God … but nor can anyone prove to me that God does not exist …

            It remains illogical to me the existence of God – yet I have friends who tell me of spiritual things which are illogical and which I believe they accept as true … I can not prove they are not true … nor can they validate them …

            Until I have evidence of either side – I take the honourable and evidence based position of saying – religion seems illogical, and I see no evidence to support it – but I keep an open mind should someone be able to demonstrate it to me …

            That to me is an honourable and fair position

            I’m not surprised you seek to ridicule fairness given your conduct on here

        2. de Villiers 20 Jan 2012, 4:31pm

          Religion is not a factual exercise but at least you have correctly put the word god in quotes. It is too simplistic to say that I believe in ‘god’ but I suppose it works for shorthand.

        3. de Villiers 20 Jan 2012, 4:55pm

          I should add, David, that your interpretation of religion is that there is a superhuman being who created the universe. That is a false concept and is easy to knock-down. It shows your lack of knowledge of religion.

          But as to evidence, it is well argued and shown that science itself must rest on theory and faith – as argued by Karl Popper and Michael Polyani. Any suggestion of objective scientific truth would be deprecated by Emmanual Kant or David Hume.

          Even Einstein’s theories were accepted in the absence of evidence – such as the third prediction that due to the sun’s mass, the consequent reduction in the velocity of light would affect the quantity of light emitted by it – was not confirmed until more than forty years afterwards. Current theories on string remain theories with which we have to work.

          But aside from all of that, religion is not a scientific but a personal endeavour. One does not look for facts or rationality in art or literature but truth and meaning.

    3. dAVID, i find your views offensive. I am Jewish and i am proud of my faith. You are entitled to hold your views, but don’t try and force them down other peoples throats and delieraly offend other people. So don’t say my religion is a cult and don’t say the Torah is fictional. You are acting like a MILITANT athiest and a complete ar**hole if i am being honest!

      1. Forgive me Robbie – or don’t – but the Torah, like the Bible and Quran are mere political manifestos. Nothing more.

        You cannot ask some to not say the Torah is fictional. You have the right to believe it to be true, others have the right to disagree and see it for what it really is.

      2. Your religion IS a cult though.

        If you believe that some fictitious ‘god'; invented the world in 6 days and then rested on the 7th, then you are part of a religious cult.

        ‘God’ does not exist. And this cult elder – rabbi Aryeh Ralbag – is a bigot pig who should be denied any future entry fo the Netherlands thanks to his dangerous religious extremism.

        Non-believers are just as worthy of protection from lunatic religious extremism as anyone else.

      3. “You are entitled to hold your views, but don’t try and force them down other peoples throats and delieraly offend other people”

        Ironic you should suggest that when we are commenting on an article about some religious nut job insisting we can be all cured, when its contrary to all evidence, not to mention human decency, to suggest this.

        Religion needs to mind its own bloody business. And if you’re offended by that, tough. We’ve had to endure religious nutters telling everyone what to do becuase “god says so” for far too long.

  5. Jackass

  6. “The key point to remember is that these individuals are primarily innocent victims of childhood emotional wounds. They deserve our full love, support and encouragement in their striving towards healing”

    ahh that old people are gay and its becuase of child abuse argument again? im afraid peer reviewed science does not agree with the idea that sexual orientation can be changed, on that the general consensus is such, there is debate about other things but not that as the actual evidence shows

    1. It’s almost as if the chief rabbi has deliberately avoided keeping up with the tremendous scientific discoveries of the times in which we live.

      1. jamestoronto 18 Jan 2012, 5:27pm

        He’s not alone in avoiding the evidence. Way too many so called religious nuts are with him, sadly.

    2. ‘These individuals are primarily innocent victims of childhood emotional wounds.’ I would agree there. Victims of bigotry, prejudice and intolerance aimed at them for being different. Where was your ‘Full love, support and encouragement’ then Rabbi when they needed it most?

  7. I notice that a rabbi of Glasgow has signed it too! Having lived in Amsterdam I can only say that Jews and Gays seemed to be ‘on the same side’ and both suffered horribly during the holocaust. This is an American initiative and cannot in any way reflect the feelings of the Dutch Jewish community.

  8. Helen Wilson 18 Jan 2012, 3:58pm

    Homophobia and transphobia are always a lifestyle choice, I’m sure with the right amount of electro-convulsive therapy Aryeh Ralbag can be cured of his bigotry.

    1. I’m sure with the right amount of electro-convulsive therapy homosexuals trannys and other people who made decisions of what lifestyle to take can be cured. They just chose to ignore it.

      1. Do you still beat your wife Leon?

  9. The entire population of the world could sign their nasty little document, it wouldn’t make the contents true.

    This is an issue on which there is really no doubt or uncertainty at all. None of the research done into sexual orientation suggests it is anything other than native and inborn. We even understand the mechanisms by which it is so fairly well.

    They might as well produce a petition arguing that the earth is a flat disc supported by pillars and with water hanging above the sky – that also is found in the horrible torah book, and has also been thoroughly debunked by modern (and, indeed, ancient) science.

    1. I am Jewish, and i find it offensive that you call my Holy Book horrible!

      1. Then you have the right to be offended Robbie.

        1. Good for you Robbie.

          I think the Torah, BuyBull and the Qu’ran are badly written works of fiction for desert dwelling, illiterate peasants who lived thousands of years ago, and that anyone who regards these horrible books as somehow being the word of ‘god’ is being wilfully stupiid.

      2. Robbie finds it offensive that people call his ‘holy’ book horrible.

        How incredibly arrogant of him.

        Why should any ‘holy’ book be held in esteem when they are used to promote hatred.

        I don’t hold the BuyBull or the Torah or the Qu’ran in higher esteem than a John Grisham book.

        It is extra-ordinarily arrogant (but quite typical) that religious cultists expect me to do so.

        My opinion is that religious is a vile cancer with nothing of value to offer the world.

        This opinion is non-discriminatory as it does not damage anyone’s rights.

        Yet the cultists get all upset when people reference how they have no respect for the cultists freely-chosen, voluntary religious beliefs.

        1. Absolutely agree. say it as it is man! :)

          1. de Villiers 20 Jan 2012, 4:32pm

            David, you continually promote hatred – as shown by your immature language. It comes close to inciting religious hatred.

  10. I will add anytime you’re ready bitch

  11. t a bastard!!wot abt those alcoholic rabbi who give a fuked up education to their kids?/huh??wot abt it??this is MY AMSTERDAM AND NOBODY EVER WILL DARE TO STEP ON MY COMUNITY.SO FUK OFF TO EVERYBODY WHO HATE PPL LIKE US!!

  12. You guys are really mistaken.

    I personally know over 20 formerly gay people and three who are married or engaged.

    There are people who put in the work, who wanted to change. For some of them, had they given up after a short attempt would not have been successful. It took 4 years for some – just like the struggle for alcoholism or any other difficult issue.

    Go to
    http://www.Torahdec.org

    read the evidence in the links on the site.

    There is real information – see both sides of the issue.

    1. Poor suckers, living a lie to fit in with their pissing homophobic communities, it is not possible to deliberately change one’s sexual orientation from gay to straight, they are either bisexual or have disappeared back into the far reaches of the Narnia closet, anyone can change their behaviour to fit in but often at enormous cost to themselves and to those close to them.
      Why be happy when you can fake being “normal” ?

    2. bobbleobble 18 Jan 2012, 5:30pm

      Alcoholics are always alcoholics, nobody is ever cured of alcoholism just as no one can be cured of homosexuality. You don’t know anyone who is formerly gay, you know 20 people who are pretending to be straight in order to appease people like you who won’t accept them for what they really are.

      And you have a cheek asking us to see things from both sides when it’s quite clear from the Torahdec that the people who signed that statement have no desire to see anything except their own blinkered view of the world. Have those people (and have you) taken the time to actually meet and understand gay people properly? Guess what, most gay people were not abused as children. Science (and I mean real science, not the sort linked to from the Torahdec) will tell you that sexuality is almost certainly innate in part if not wholly and is almost certainly fixed. However, I’m sure you aren’t interested in that side of things are you?

    3. “6 Ways Religious Frauds Try to Make Gays and Lesbians Straight”
      http://www.ex-straightministries.com/

    4. I hope your post doesn’t receive a lot of hateful derision. I have no urge to “become” straight, but if others want to do so, I really don’t feel judgemental about it. Perhaps it is RIGHT for THEM. Perhaps they can be more functional and productive in a “straight” life. I don’t think the LGBT group need to be SO defensive about the immutability of sexual orientation. It can be a fluid concept throughout our lifetime.

      1. Deeside Will 18 Jan 2012, 7:42pm

        SOME people’s sexual orientation is fluid and can change of its own accord. Most people’s, and especially most men’s, doesn’t – even if they want it to. Anyone who offers to MAKE it change is a charlatan. I certainly wouldn’t feel judgmental of anyone who wants to change from gay to straight. But I wouldn’t encourage them to waste their lives chasing a chimera.

      2. bobbleobble 18 Jan 2012, 8:44pm

        I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a lot of gay people who would quite like to be straight, the answer to that though is to seek help in coming to terms with your sexuality, not to seek out people like this who claim to be able to turn you straight when at best all they can do is teach you ways of suppressing your true identity, something which is actually intrinsically harmful.

        Sexuality can be fluid but that doesn’t mean it is for everyone, nor does it mean that you can force it to change.

        And do you mean right for them or right for the society that rejects them because they aren’t straight? Because ultimately that is why they want to change, not because they want to be straight per se but because they want to fit in, they want to stop people hating them and being prejudiced against them and think that their troubles will end if they could just somehow become straight.

        1. GingerlyColors 19 Jan 2012, 7:15am

          Personally I much rather be straight myself and married, had children and made my parents grandparents. But I’m gay and nothing is going to change that and I had to come to terms with my sexuality, something which took many years.

      3. I certainly do not feel that my sexuality is fluid and neither is anyone i know!

      4. Pete are you joking?

        It’s much more likely someone would want to “change” their sexuality because of childhood trauma / lack of acceptance by other adults.

        I can’t think of a single reason anyone would want to “change” their sexuality except that society is too narrow-minded to let them live the way that is right for them.

    5. 1. We’re mistaken ? You think straight people have more insight into the compulsions of gay people than gay people do ?

      2. You may know ‘over 20 formerly gay people’ ( how many actually ? ) but so what ? If you know 1000 gay people who are still gay then that disproves your point ! How do you know these ‘over 20′ people ? Do you think you have an unbiased sample ?

      3. And what business is it of yours anyway ?

      1. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 7:38pm

        @Yosef..
        ….i’m gay and I don’t have 20 gay friends total, you are a choicist hater of gay people, yet you have all these gay friends and even more extraordinarily they all want to be “straight”???Having “over 20″ would infer you have thousands of gay friends…… Take your fantasizing over to the WBC or Daily Wail sites where they will be more in keeping.

        1. I must admit it does seem (at best) odd that a person such as Yosef who has such a pungent dislike of LGBT people has 20 gay (or ex-gay – yeah right ….) friends …

          Odd … untrue?

    6. Anytime youre in London why don’t you look me up

    7. How rude.

      Imagine if I said to Yosef that I could turn him into a white blue eyed catholic vegetarian aryan.

      How would he feel about that?

      1. “Just Like That” …???

    8. “I personally know over 20 formerly gay people and three who are married or engaged.”

      Wow, what a great friend YOU must be to repress your friends. You like making your friends live a lie to make you feel better, do you?

  13. The document claims: “The media is rife with negative labels implying that one is “hateful” or “homophobic” if they do not accept the homosexual lifestyle as legitimate.

    How about wilfully ignorant? that sums it up best for me.
    There is an excellent body of legitimate, peer reviewed, medical and scientific researched evidence available which these superstitious anti-gay numpties make every effort to avoid.
    Wilfully ignorant is by far the best description of these backward anti-gay people who tout phoney ex-gay cure propaganda that is as unnecessary as it is dishonest, dangerous and in my opinion totally immoral.

  14. Deeside Will 18 Jan 2012, 7:34pm

    I note with interest that one of the signatories to the Declaration is a disbarred lawyer and convicted felon, jailed and fined in 1989 for his part in a multimillion-dollar business fraud, and who has now reinvented himself and is running an “ex-gay” organization.

    There is undoubtedly a market for the “modification” and “healing” of homosexuality. That, of course, is a sine qua non of successful fraud. After all, what competent, self-respecting con man comes up with a scam for which there’s no market – or for which, at least, he doesn’t foresee that a market can somehow be created? The market in this instance, of course, largely depends on religious and social guilt about homosexuality, so purveyors of the “ex-gay” fraud naturally want to generate as much of it as possible.

  15. Most irritating is the utter hypocrisy of an orthodox Jew arguing that rejecting someone’s legitimacy is not an act of bigotry. By their own argument, antisemitism is not bigotry. Oh wait, ADL is contstantly saying that antisemitism is bigotry. I agree it is; and homophobia is bigotry by the same reasoning.

    1. Especially since being gay is an intrinsic, unchangeable part of someone’s makeup.

      Religious belief is freely chosen, and entirely voluntary, and those religious people who use ‘holy’ books as the basis of their religious belief are being wilfully stupid by using badly written works of human fiction as the basis for their beliefs.

  16. I am Jewish and i would like to say that most Jews are NOT homophobic. Reform and Liberal Jews generally support all gay rights Orthdox Jews generally support most gay rights. The Ultra-Orthodox do not support many at all. But noone really cares what they think. Israel (the Jewish homeland) has the best LGBT rights not only in the middle east, but the whole of Asia. Tel Aviv has a vibrant gay scene. I am glad that the Jewish community in Amsterdam has rightly condemned this Rabbi. The Rabbi should be ashamed of himself.

    1. GingerlyColors 19 Jan 2012, 7:09am

      Drat that damn rabbi!

    2. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 8:34pm

      …..as should the whole of Judeaism. So a few souls in
      Amsterdam expelled him…… Why has the head dude not had anything to say about this dinosaur and why is he still a rabbi. That in reality is the nub of the matter. If we had real friends in religion cults why have they not stood up and been counted.. …..or even staged a self-conscious walkout.????

  17. George Broadhead 18 Jan 2012, 8:46pm

    I had the impression that Orthodox Judaism, in contrast to Progressive or Reform Judaism, has always been very hostile to lesbian and gay sexual relationships. Is this still the case in the UK, I wonder?

    Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

    1. George: that is what I thought too. I checked again what strand of Judaism the rabbi represented, thinking it had to be Reform given the reaction of other members of his congregation, and found to my surprise he is Orthodox.

      While, I suspect I will be shot down for this, I am inclined to agree with the Rabbi and his interpretation of the Torah regarding homosexuality.

      1. Why exactly do you haunt this gay comments board John B?

      2. bobbleobble 18 Jan 2012, 9:12pm

        Does the Bible or the Torah actually discuss homosexuality. I don’t mean sex acts between two men as mentioned in Leviticus, I mean honest to goodness homosexuality ie people who are physically, sexually and emotionally attracted to members of their own gender?

        The answer is that no it doesn’t. Not even anything like since homosexuality didn’t even begin to be studied until the 19th century. The word didn’t even exist until the late 1800s.

        So perhaps you can explain how the Bible or the Torah or any other ancient holy book can actually have anything of value to discuss on something that wasn’t even contemplated back then.

        1. Some people interpret it as doing so …

          Many others would argue this is a false and inaccurate interpretation …

          Using contextualisation many of the texts taken in Genesis to say that homosexuality is wrong actually when correctly interpreted say it is “different” … well sure, it is different … does not mean it is wrong …

          1. bobbleobble 18 Jan 2012, 11:02pm

            I’m not talking about sex between men, I’m talking about homosexuality. The Bible doesn’t talk about homosexuality because it wasn’t known to exist back then. It wasn’t until the mid19th century that people began to study and understand the fact that people could be attracted to their own gender in the same way as others were attracted to the opposite gender.

            The idea that the Bible talks about homosexuality, a concept not known to exist back in the Bronze Age is ridiculous.

          2. I don’t follow the Bible anyway, although bits of it are interesting …

            So chill – its not my book …

            I was merely expressing what other people say, two strands of it at that …

            I personally see very little of homosexuality whether than be orientation or sexual activity or both – dpending on the nuances you choose … in the Bible whatsoever …

          3. @ bobbleobble –

            In the 19th century, the word ‘homosexuality’ was used to describe same-sex attraction. Agreed.

            I’m not so sure that the bible doesn’t mention same-sex relationships in detail, in the story of David and Jonathan, for example, and also, Ruth and Neomi.

            And way before the bible was written, we have the story of Gilgamesh which is nothing if not a description of a homosexual relationship, considered normal and natural in ancient Mesopotamia.

            Also, recent studies have shown that same-sex bonding has always been a distinct aspect of sexuality, both in the animal world and in our human species.

            But I agree that Leviticus was not talking about a relationship, but a worship ritual to a fertility goddess that involved anal penetration between two men, and which was considered foreign to the worship of Yahveh, a warrior god at that time.

      3. It would also be interesting to ‘interpret’ the Torah in light of modern-Western obsessions about sexually-exclusive monogamy.

        Oh yes, that’s right – it’s not exactly what could be called an important issue in the Old Testament, is it?

      4. “I am inclined to agree with the Rabbi and his interpretation of the Torah regarding homosexuality.”

        Says the religious nut that thinks evolution is an “opinion”. Bully for you and your stupidity that you have someone in agreement with you, eh? Must make you feel better about your peddling this tripe in here.

  18. Although the article we are commenting upon is about US Rabbi Ratbag, what I’m posting here is germain to the topic of conversion therapy.

    Ex-Straight Conversion Therapy Camp Celebrates One Year Anniversary

    “Revelations International, a world-wide organization of thinkers promoting “the message of Freedom from Jesus Christ through the power of homosexuality.”

    Full article and photos here:
    http://www.smilepolitely.com/news/ex-straight_conversion_therapy_camp_celebrates_one_year_anniversary/

    1. …speechless… eh, eh..

      A new chapter in Canterbury Tales..

  19. Paddyswurds 18 Jan 2012, 10:44pm

    @Robbie…
    ….”don’t my religion is a cult and don’t say the Torah is fictional”
    Either you are illiterate or are in denial. Exactly where or how is the Torah, Bible or Qur’an not fiction and not very plausible fiction at that.. I suggest that if you live within a hundred miles of a dictionary, you should make all efforts to use it before you make an even bigger fool of yourself than you already have, by admitting to belonging to such. That you are “proud of my faith” says a lot about you really or indeed anyone who follows such evil as that professed by the cults of death.
    @Stu….
    ….for someone who pretends to be atheist, you sure do spend a lot of time defending the religion wingnuts. Amongst all things, Religion alone has caused mankind more suffering and death than any other single cause and far from being a helpmate to man, has caused him to be backward, ignorant and hungry. If you have evidence to the contrary Stu, show it.

    1. Paddyswurds 18 Jan 2012, 11:38pm

      …..and if religion were invented today it would be against the Law and anyone professing it would most likely end up in prison or a secure mental hospital

      1. Also Paddyswurds … its apparent that you are selective in which comments of mine you choose to react to …

        There are plenty of comments (including a few today) that challenge people who are religious or religious views and expose the bigotry of their position …

        However, you only ever seek to comment when I point out the unfairness of someone towards certain religous people ….

        You never seem to notice when I hold religious people to account …

        Selective …

        Keen to confront and condemn without balance, thought or consideration …

        Yeah sounds about right for you

        1. It is not unfair to question the wilful stupidity of religious people’s beliefs.

          If I came into work and announced that the garden gnome in my neighbour’s garden woke up every night and came into my house and rogered me every night people would regard me as insane.

          Yet people who – despite a complete lack of evidence – believe that some malevolent, omnipotent, sky-fairy invented the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th somehow deserve to have their beliefs respected.

          Sorry – ain’t ever going to happen.

          Any literate person who believes in ‘god’ is being wilfully ignorant I think.

          My opinion deserves as much respect as religious belief (well actually it deserves more as my opinion does not involve malevolent sky fairies).

          1. @dAVID

            Whilst some of that last comment is reasonable …

            It still does not address the selective nature of Padyswurds interactions with my comments and how he portrays only those he disagrees with …

            Despite many comments where I condemn religion and some religious people

            Nor does it provide any reason for Paddyswurds chirlish comments about me pretending to be atheist (which I dont) or asking me to prove something I dont believe in …

        2. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 8:16pm

          @Stu…..
          …..it hardly seems necessary for me to join your admirable defense of the religionist bigots or how you would be able to know if i had noticed or not escapes me.
          I only post comments if the reaction I’ve had to a particular article or bigot is strong enough to have me pick up the keyboard…..and yes i am selective otherwise one would need to be online 24/7/365. As for confrontational and unbalanced , hands up…so shoot me. But do not say that my comments are without thought thought or consideration. I read all of a particular comment …not speed read the (to me) relevant points.
          I have no great regard for any religionists no matter how much they pretend to love us to our faces. They all follow the same hate filled books that seek to belittle and demonize fellow humans for how they were born. How many of them are calling for Vatican two esque conferences to change the rules or delete clearly idiotic and hate filled passages in their “holy books”? Don’t forget that ……

          1. @Paddyswurds

            I do not and have not ever defended religion, I have supported the rights of people to have a religion and pointed out that stereotyping is wrong – full stop – whatever sort it is …. that is not supporting religion … although you would seek to lie and portray it as such….

            You are unbalanced and the fact you speed read obviously means you miss the points where I condemn religion which are probably more numerous than when I confront the bigotry of the likes of you and dAVID

            Your recent comments are in my opinion without thought or consideration so do not tell me what to say …

            In your very last paragraph there you have lumped everyone who has a religion into one box – their attitudes, beliefs, actions, understanding are all the same in one box – absolute rubbish and demonstrates your unbalanced comments that are wihtout thought or consideration.

            I despise the Vatican … this thread is nothing to do with them – so relevance?

      2. de Villiers 20 Jan 2012, 4:56pm

        Yes Paddyswurds, that has already been tried in Europe during the past century.

    2. @Paddyswurds

      Yet again you try childish insults …

      I have never pretended to be atheist or anything else for that matter

      I have always been clear I am agnostic …

      Your jibe is cheap – but thats what I expect from you …

      I have friends who feel they have benefitted from religion – not my view but they do …

      I do not defend relgion at all – I defend anyone from bigotry wherever it comes from … and you sir are bigotted against religious people – some of that may be deserved but not to every person who is religious … thats the sort of treatment we have tried to stop happening to LGBT people – it is not acceptable to do the same in reverse …

      If you think it is acceptable then fine – I prefer to hold higher standards of humanity …

      1. Often the people who recognise mental illness first are the mentall ill themselves .. according to a psychiatrist I used to work with …

        1. There is a lot of mental illness in the gay community, however homosexuals always denies this.

          1. Theres a lot of mental illness in all communities – one in four people worldwide will experience it at some time …

            So thats gay or straight, white or black, Christian, Jew or atheist, male or female, young or old, oh and bigoted or not bigoted …

            Anyone can experience mental health issues …

            So, Leon … your point was …

          2. David Myers 20 Jan 2012, 7:26am

            Leon: If you have evidence that there is a disproportionate amount of mental illness in the gay community – post it, I dare you! And don’t try to cite depression or suicidality as evidence of your incorrect statement – the responsibility for those statistics belongs totally to the homophobes, haters, and queer-bashers and no one else!

        2. ‘Often the people who recognise mental illness first are the mentall ill themselves .. according to a psychiatrist I used to work with’

          Mmm, I have to question that.

          More often than not those with mental ill health are the last to recognise it.

          1. I dont think the psychiatrist I worked with meant recognising mental health in themselves but in others …

            There is a great truth in what you say that many people with mental health issues recognise it after others who care for them

            Equally I do think there is something in the argument that those who have experienced mental health problems can recognise warning signs in others …

        3. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 9:02pm

          @Stu….
          ….ah, another of your myriad jobs Stu…… Mathesulah comes to mind, either that or or extreme brevity of tenure in these jobs. Is it possible that your psychiatrist is the one and same as the “lovely psychiatrist” in Iris Robinsons office….lol

          1. @Paddyswurds …

            As a paramedic who has done many shifts either as clinical advisor to the division or in a walk in centre I have had to liaise with many other health professionals – its how health works …

            Brevity in jobs … Police – 7 years …. Paramedic – 9 years so far …

            Other jobs overlapping on contract basis eg Immigration flight medic

            Just because my career has been interesting and varied do not condemn me for it …

            I find it deeply offensive that you seek to doubt my integrity in what I say about my experience and evidence of the weakest form of argument …

            You won’t have evidence that my career disclosed is fabricated despite your attempts to suggest this … because I have been totally honest …

            Your appraoch to debate is to ridicule and on a par with the likes of Iris Robinson

            Shame on You

          2. Paddyswurds

            You have about as much honesty as the Pope

            and I wouldnt trust him not to commit perjury

  20. Those gay cure people mix Christian and Jewish prayer with shock treatment and god knows what kind of psychiatry to force gays from being gay. It has been proven it is a sham and a scam that does not work. In fact it kills and destroys gays. The people doing “gay cure” need to be arrested and put in prison for crimes against humanity. The shame of the Jews doing this to gays when their own people were used as human experiments in the camps during the war. The Jews are doing the same thing that was done to them.

    1. I think you are right, so-called conversion is a form of torture and extreme abuse whether the victims buy into the scam through ignorant desperation or they are forced into it by family or community.

      1. Absolutely the so called conversion is arguably torture or emotional torment

        1. …which can seriously damage a personality or lead to suicide.

        2. Baptising a child and forcing him/her to attend religious classes and follow religious education, when they are too young to give informed consent to such absurd practices is also torture,

          Don’t the jewish and muslim cults require ritual mutilation of infant males – circumcusion – as standard.

          This is child torture no?

          1. I don’t believe all Muslim traditions require it … but am open to being corrected … and I am not conversant enough with Jewish traditions to know …

            Whilst there are good clinical reasons for circumcision in some young infant males (note the some – not all), I wouldnt believe it should be enforced on all …

            I think female circumcision is worse – more invasive and arguably much more damaging …

            If its not clinically necessary then it should not be carried out – is my view … although I do know some doctors argue there is a hygiene argument for universal male circumcision …

            I think infant baptism is an anachronism (personally) and such rites should be when an individual is able to make an informed judgement on whether or not they wish to participate …

            I wouldn’t necessarily call Sunday School torture … Boring maybe … but not torture …

          2. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 9:19pm

            @Stu….
            …..The great injustice viz Sunday schools is the number of young minds they corrupt and turn into homophobic murders in some cases. That is where the real evil lurks

          3. @Paddyswurds

            I went to Sunday School …

            I am neither homophobic nor a murderer

            I did find it boring and a waste of time

  21. It is very true “homosexuality could be “modified and healed”.

    He should not be suspended over his thoughts and opinions.

    He will be reinstated soon, I will pray for him.

    1. He will be sacked soon. I am pleased that he is of no relevance to me – strangely enough, just like you Matthew – irrelevant …..

    2. I imagine Hitler thought the same thing

    3. Matthew wrote,”He will be reinstated soon, I will pray for him.”

      I’m impressed at how you manage to pray and toss-off both at the same time Matt.

    4. Supernatural belief can be modified and healed, Matthew, though your thoughts and opinions should not be a cause of discrimination against you. More a reason for reparative therapy.

    5. “I will pray for him.”

      Sure. The lips that prey are utterly useless against the hand that do…. that’s why you, a fool, are consistently wrong in everything you say.

  22. I have never been into rabies!

    1. GingerlyColors 19 Jan 2012, 7:08am

      Or rabbits!

      1. Ssh, you pair or you’ll cause offence!

        1. Is being offensive a good thing?

          It seems you think that it is …

          When someone resorts to offensive comments – they have automatically lost the argument as far as I am concerned …

          1. Paddyswurds 19 Jan 2012, 8:27pm

            @Stu…..
            …just so’s you know…….There are people and have been people in the very far and very recent past who would have considered any comment on their views and actions as offensive. I am quite sure you know who they are and who they were. How exactly would you have dealt with such people, Stu??

          2. @Paddyswurds

            I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are saying before I make a response to that …

            You seem to be talking in rhyme …

            I think I know who you are talking about, but given that you are not explciit in your comment, I wouldnt wish to presume …

            With a bit more information I will give you a fair and honest response …

      2. Rabbits can be very tasty!

        1. …when roasted…

          1. I’ve never tried rabbit. Ah well,..

          2. or grilled with galzed carrots, stir fried cabbage and a cream mustard sauce …

            Yum!

    2. That’s a bit anti-semantic of you Brenton.

  23. GingerlyColors 19 Jan 2012, 7:07am

    Please don’t rabbi on about the supposed evils of homosexuality. (Sorry, I missed a ‘t’ out!)

    1. Rabbi Ratbag (also known simply as A. Ratbag )

      1. He’s a big stupid, wilfully ignorant pig.

        1. GingerlyColors 20 Jan 2012, 7:33am

          Pigs, rats, rabbits, we could go through the entire animal kingdom here!

  24. I am rather concerned here with the hints of anti-semitism.

    1. Really? That’s what you got out of this? Not the rabid homophobia of a some religious nut who thinks we should damage the lives of others with his biblical stupidity???

      Seriously, get a life.

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