well, this gets a little more complicated then…
I don’t see how.
They’re defending their own position and nothing else.
Is their defending their perception of this a wrong thing to do?
Not really. Being a drag queen doesn’t, contrary to apparent popular misconception, give you free reign to completely disregard misogyny and transphobia.
Whatever magical intention Sandee had going into the advert, something was produced which played straight into a damaging narrative about trans women. The fact that he happens to be another flavour of LGBT doesn’t even come close to excusing it.
While Rose White’s approach is fundamentally illiberal and would garner little support from the broader trans community, drag and the attached cissexual male privilege is woefully under-examined. It can be done in a way that doesn’t unduly mock women, but that doesn’t give anyone a free pass to step over the line.
Yes and being trans does not give you the right to judge how other people choose to dress. You need to quit your dragphobia.
Drag is not owned or policed by trans people.
Drag has existed as a form of entertainiment for centuries.
who’s doing that? I’m saying the advert is Transphobic not that drag is wrong.
And I am sayiing that your claim that the ad is ‘transphobic’ is in fact ‘dragphobic’ as you are assigning malevolent intentions on the drag queen based on how he is dressed.
yea whatever david.
your endless need to post multiple posts on anything to do with trans issues, all claiming trans women are oppressors speaks for itself.
I think you’ll find that you post more about trans issues than I do.
Which is fair enough seeing as you are trans and I am gay.
But seeing as this is an LGBT site then I can post what I like about LGBT issues.
I suspect that you are one of those sourfaced, humourless trans homophobes, who doesn’t particularly like gay people, and who never misses a chance to engage in a bit of gaybashing.
yet again David – an oppressed minority are the aggressors.
You seriously need to get some help.
You are truly an idiot,
I am not saying that transwomen are oppressors.
I am simply saying that transwomen (like you) who are attempting to police the dress codes of other people are not doing your own cause any good.
You clearly suffer from paranoia.
yes david I’m sure.
I think the record you are playing is broken
Not a single visual clue in the advert its drag queen and not a transgender/transsexual person. Also if you are a man first and foremost and are only impersonating a woman you have no place in that toilet. The drag artists I have met would never use the woman’s toilet.
The media have long used the excuse we are portraying a drag queen for blatant acts of transphobia and cis sexism no screen.
Now I am going to hold my hands up at the beginning and say that I have not, yet, watched the advert – so do not have an informed opinion of whether it was or was not transphobic (in my opinion) or whether the reaction to the advert was or was not dragphobic …
However, I do feel that there is a potential in some situations (not necessarily this one) for an advert, sketch etc involving a drag act to be perceived (at least by some) as transphobic – and the response to this perceived transphobia to be received as dragphobia …
How do we resolve that?
Drag is stupid.
no, drag is wonderful.
No. Drag is transphobic.
Does that make me dragphobic :(
No. The issue of men dressing up as females for entertainment purposes is CLEARLY the most pressing concern for the trans community.
The trans community must be asked permission before getting dressed.
And I condemn cisgendered women for their continued insistence on wearing trousers.
That is so transphobic.
If a woman wears trousers then she is mocking transgendered men.
It’s an OUTRAGE!
If some guy like to dress up as a woman, or as a caricature of a woman, should he not be free to do so?
BTW, I do think it was an absolute ridiculous commercial, as is certainly not unusual with commercials…
yes because i hear people say all the time that drag artists don’t menstruate and are therefore not real women.
Drag queens don’t claim to be wiomen.
And I would change the circles I hung out in, if the people in those circles actually discussed the lack of menstrual cycle for drag queens.
well thankyou david for agreeing with me – the advert wasn’t about Drag because Drag is not about being female and this advert was.
Reading the stories about it (and still not seen advert) but my impression is that part of the advert is about being a woman … part is that the drag queen is not … and thus the contrast and comparison is the crux of the issue …
Now, depending on how it is portrayed and viewed and perceived depends on whether that is done sympathetically albeit humerously or inappropriately …
But surely femininity is only one aspect of this advert?
but stu, you have not watched the advert.
I have now watched the advert
I still think femininity is only one aspect of the advert …
I find it insulting that there are people out there who genuinely appear to believe that I am not capable of distinguishing between a man in women’s clothes and a woman in a man’s body.
Ur. The whole “woman in a man’s body” narrative doesn’t fit *everyone*, you know.
RuPaul once said “We are all born naked, and the rest is drag”
I’m fed up of cis gender people telling us what is and what is not offensive to us. If we say this commercial will hinder us then believe what we say, instead of making conclusions biased on cis gendered privilege a telling us what we can find offensive.
Ask yourself would a drag queen be in a woman’s toilet in the first place?
The typical sexism being displayed in some comments in other places on this advert saddens me. The cis sexism directed towards us says: we are being too sensitive, irrational, we don’t know what’s offensive or not and we need cis sexual men and women to tell us trans what we think because being trans we must be incapable of knowing our own minds. All this sort language is what cis women have faced in the fight for equal rights with men.
We continue to see cis gendered misogyny and sexism directed towards the transgender community.
Drag is not owned by the trans community.
DRag existed as an entertainment for long before there was even a word for transgendered people (or indeed homosexual people).
You need to get over it.
If this is me employing my cisgender privilege then quite simply I don’t care.
I am constantly stunned that how other people dress can be so incredibly offensive to some trans women.
Is that REALLY the most pressing concern for your community?
Gender variant people have always existed don’t be so bloody thick. .
No David it’s not the most pressing concern for our community but then you have completely misrepresented the issue.
The protest was about a societal tendency towards “othering”; deliberately excluding other people because they don’t share a common characteristic. In this case it was expressed in the message “you’re not a woman if you don’t bleed” reinforced by the slogan Libra gets girls.
Sandee Crack is being disingenuous. Yes we know he is a drag act but that’s irrelevant unless people are able or willing to make that distinction for themselves. In our experience they often are not, as became clear when the Emily Howard catchphrase “but I’m a laydee” became a stick to beat transwomen with.
I’ve been in a women’s toilet where a drag queen was pissing in the sink. They said they liked to use the women’s because the mens is dirty. No bloody wonder if people are pissing in the sinks
I know you are new to this…but really you’ve never come across a drag queen in the womyns toilet?
Or maybe you were asking about a WC belonging to a particular lady?
“Ask yourself would a drag queen be in a woman’s toilet in the first place?”
Yes, it happens all the time. Go to any pub or club in Manchester’s Village.
Helen Wilson, you may consider whatever you like offensive. That does not mean everyone else has to jump & ban things based on your subjective opinion. Gay culture and drag have a long history and we are not going to give us a part of our culture just because you don’t approve. Get your own culture (is there such a thing as transculture?).
“Ask yourself would a drag queen be in a woman’s toilet in the first place?”
Helen, why not? I could not care less.
Yes. They would. In just about any bar that I go to, queens tend to go to the ladies room as opposed to the men’s room.
As a drag act myself I would like to say that yes, when in drag i use the women’s toilets, although sometimes they are even more disgucting than the mens, BUT I always check no one is offended, half the time they have better mirrors and lighting and with the amount of underwear and corsettry i need to use a cubicle
The ORIGINAL point of drag is that they are NOT women…which is why the mannerisms, make-up and outfits were OTT…and while I don’t like it myself I can appreciate that it IS a sub-culture in itself.
It has eff all to do with transgenders, because it is NOT ABOUT transgender issues.
So I have no problem with the commercial and support Crack’s position (pon intended).
It would seem to me that, these days, transgenders are more likely to agitate to BE separated from the self-same gender they wish to be, rather than be accepted AS that gender.
Which is a bloody shame BUT NOT drag queens (or kings) faults
You mean like that misogynistic trans woman who claimed in court that she had been left a ‘half man’ because the NHS wouldn’t pay for her tit job.
Why would ANY woman feel solidarity towards a trans woman who thinks that a woman’s worth is based on her chest size?
‘Why would ANY woman feel solidarity towards a trans woman who thinks that a woman’s worth is based on her chest size?’
well I definitely can’t feel solidarity with anyone who says stupid things like that
Well I have not dount that YOU were defending the trans misoynist who said she felt like a ‘half man’ because she was flat-chested.
It was a story on Pink News, which you post on. And you are always the 1st to shout ‘transphobia’.
Women with very little breast growth can also get surgery on the NHS are they and indeed get it more easily that Trans people so are these women Misogynistic?
Women who have had mastectomies are indeed allowed to have boob jobs on the NHS.
Women who want them for solely cosmetic purposes are FAR less likely to get one.
You know that however.
But amusing to see that you are employing your usual paranoia to assign transphobic intent on the NHS for being reluctant to give silicon boob jobs to trans women
the need a transwoman feels for surgery in this area is the same as that for other women but you wouldn’t care about that right?
Oh my god, David is spot on.. laugh forgiveness sake, smile even. Its people like you that make people not want to get to know people in the LGBT community as everything is about who’s offending who and the tiniest thing you take the wrong way..the add was derogatory to you because you wanted it to be, lighten up for goodness sake and stop been so bitter doesn’t help with the stress lines…
I’ll stop being bitter when Gender Stereotypes don’t trample everyone underfoot thanks you patronising idiot.
Mmm – the post I was replying to has disappeared. It said we should just lighten up.
“It would seem to me that, these days, transgenders are more likely to agitate to BE separated from the self-same gender they wish to be, rather than be accepted AS that gender.”
What about those of who find the implication of the advert – that periods make a person a woman – offensive because we identify we NOT women but we have periods?
Trans women are not the only ones who have found this advert offensive.
I understand Sandee being offended at being called trans when he’s not, and it is good to know that the character depicted is meant to be a drag queen not a trans incapable of passing, who the media (and advertisers) have a long history of confusing.
What Sandee doesn’t understand (and may never, given that he doesn’t see himself as any kind of woman outside of the role he plays) is that even barring any issues with the drag character, the ad is still extremely offensive in the fact that equates womanhood with a period. Imagine the cys woman in this commercial using the tampon to “win” in competition against *anyone* without a period – male or female or other in gender or sex. Is there any group she could do that to that’s it’s not offensive to? Especially considering the competition prior to the tampon reveal.
The cys woman character is saying “I’m better than you because I’m still having my periods.” — a biological function very few people are able to control.
The VAST majority of women experience menstruation though.
So is it now transphobic for ‘cis’ women to equate their menstrual cycle with their femininity.
Women who have had mastectomies or hysterectomies often complain that they feel ‘less of a woman’ after their operations.
Are these women to be regarded as monstrous transphobes?
a Femininity which treasures that which allot of women can not be part of is problematic no?
However the VAST majority of women experience mentstruation.
Are you asking that the VAST majority of women be regarded as transphobic for equating their uniqely female bodily functions (ONLY women menstruate) with their femininity.
If so then you need help for your paranoia.
As always trolling rather than engaging in debate.
Avoiding the question I see.
It;s a valid question directly relating to what you said.
Are you asking that the VAST majority of women be regarded as transphobic for equating their uniqely female bodily functions (ONLY women menstruate) with their femininity?
I don’t see how that is ‘trollin’.
But clearly your victim-complex has declared that I am a ‘transphobe’ thereby conveniently allowing you to avoid reasonable questions.
No I am asking why a Feminist issue suddenly becomes a way of showing why Transwomen are Misogynists.
You need to get some help with that paranoia and that persecution complex is crippling.
Still avoiding the question.
You said in relation to menstruation (and I quote) ‘a Femininity which treasures that which allot of women can not be part of is problematic no’
I responded by asking (and I quote) ‘Are you asking that the VAST majority of women be regarded as transphobic for equating their uniqely female bodily functions (ONLY women menstruate) with their femininity. ”
You are point blank refusing to answer a very reasonable question.
Sometime also post-menopausal women feel like they become ‘invisible’ when their fertility ends.
Do you regard these women as transphobes also?
Or will you avoid answering this with some messed up reasoning also?
No David I am arguing that the idea that women who do not menstruate are less feminine is wrong.
Are you so stupid you didn’t see that the topic had changed?
Only women menstruate? I’ll be sure to remind my uterus-bearing male friends of that next time they complain of cramps.
It may be correct to say that a “vast majority” of women have experienced some form of menstruation at some point in their lives. However, most living females do not currently menstruate, a majority of them for completely healthy reasons. There are also other reasons, including lack of menstruation do to nutritional lack, because of surgery, because of hormonal imbalance, because there organs weren’t formed in the proper way. There’s even women that chose to have it stopped in some way because of their lack of desire to have a child and thus suffering menstruation regularly in preparation for one is needless. Even those who chose the lack of menstruation are not less of women because they don’t want to have a traditional family – or a family at all – and yet they are continuously told this is true.
From a very young age, girls are told the definition of womanhood was when they got their period. And of course it’s not, because nearly all of them continue to be girls for quite some time afterward. And yet the definition stands. Women with hysterectomies feel like less of a woman because it’s been the conventional definition for all of their lives, and the great tragedy is that for every person that tells them “Of course, that’s not true,” there are two or three telling them “Well, duh. I mean, you’re not a man, obviously, but you can’t produce children so yeah, you’re not so much of a woman.” And it’s less offensive to say so because it’s so common to say so? Please.
The furthering of a common and painful misconception does not make it less offensive when the women who have to face these stupid ideas everyday are forced to face them yet again when they turn on the television.
It’s not transphobic to equate menstrual cycle with womanhood, it’s misogynistic. That was the point.
my point exactly.
no the add doesn’t say that’s its just how you translated it. If I got offended every time someone said ‘that’s gay I’d be ina padded cell. Get over it’s you are not helping the cause by causing drama because you interpreted an add the wrong way.
You refuse to be insulted every time someone uses “gay” as an insult, therefore it’s not an insult? That’s some interesting logic.
If you want to read a discussion of a view unconsidered in what was immediately jumped on as a trans/drag issue as “drama,” that says more about you than it does me. Why does anybody talk about anything if actually discussing it is so terrible?
DV for inexcusably stupid spelling of ‘cis’.
Drag is like blackfaced minstrels. Drag queens call women fish and openly mock them. It’s mysogonistic and shameful. If we want equality we need to look at ourselves too
You must be very unfortunate with your drag experiences then. I have yet to work with any drag queens they do anything other than gently poke fun at both makes and females.
So homophobic transgender misandrists decry the existence existence of drag queens as transphobic and it is ok to erase their identity because they are cisgender misogynists exercising male privilege.
Is that right?
“Dragphobic” – that’s a new one… but I agree with his comments really. How could any self-respecting trans person get offended by a joke made at the expense of a drag queen?
Its pathetic on the part of any gender who isn’t merely a gay male in a dress to ever be concerned or offended about such a thing… The only good thing to come of this is that Sandee will be more quickly propelled into notoriety and fame… Silly trans people – they are behaving like the homophobes themselves, this does NOTHING for their cause but hurt it!!!!
Is it me or is this just starting to sound like a whole new extreme? All I am reminded of when I see comments against the ad is hardcore feminism, a belief where you are trying to achieve equality by segregating yourself from the rest of the crowd and going around calling them “stereotypes” and “portrayed by the media”. This nitpicking is getting pathetic
the TG extremists who caused this fuss do not represent the wider trans community. the rest of us are secure in our self-image and don’t need to kick up a fuss about a funny ad with a (gorgeous) drag queen in it. Indeed, most of the complainers on libra’s facebook page ended up blocking other trans people who disagreed with them, clearly showing their isolation.
True acceptance is when all forms of expression and identity in a community can accepted as equals, none excluded.
Similar complaints are often expressed between African American people of different cultures, one saying the other causes a negative impact on the other simply by existing, yet the problem is not the differences between the two cultures, the problem is prejudice.
Changing to appeal to the judgment of the prejudiced is futile because prejudice itself is a function of non-acceptance. If two African Americans cannot accept one another for their differences, how can they expect others to accept them for theirs?
If a drag queen’s actions are negatively effecting the acceptance of trans women, the drag queen should not be cast out. The drag queen should not be forced to change, hide or compensate for what is essentially a symptom of what is wrong with prejudice. Asking the drag queen to change is just another form of prejudice.
We need to accept one another.
There are heterosexual drag queens and kings. Just wanted to point that out because the article mentions a drag queen as being specifically homosexual.
Exactly, I have personally met a few Drag Queens that are infact straight. I go to a place (a club) that has Drag Queens performing EVERY weekend (Friday’s and Saturday’s), and you wouldn’t believe how many transgender people go there that LOVE the Drag performances! I think it was just this one person was in a bad mood b/c this topic was put on tv and they were pissed that it wasn’t something that was being portrade(sp sorry its early for me lol) the way they EXPECTED this to be! I love the Drag Queens, I’m friends with a few of them, they are just AMAZING people!!! ( I’m a lesbian btw and I find them absolutely hilarious!!!)
This one is gay ( by self identification)
To top everything off, on the page Sandee Crack set up to promote a petion to keep the ad she claims transphobia isn’t even a word, let alone something that exists.. Any sympathy I did have ( and I had quite a bit) was lost at that moment. Sandee certainly doesn’t get that transwomen might not appreciate being the butt of humour yet again. Yes, I know Sandee is a drag queen and a self identified gay man but many people can’t tell the difference. Some of the apalling comments about transwomen in the original NZ herald article bear this out and justify why many transwomen are upset by it.
A Bloke in a Dress doesnt have a Period,period.
I dont “get” the appeal of drag but Im certainly not offended by its very being.
Some people are just full time whingers and do the vast majority of us with a sense of proportion a disfavour as its always the gobby lunatics that cause these storms!
Make my foot itch they do ;)
Please all you warriors for gender or whatever you term yourself, you use terms that even most of us TS people have no idea what your whittling on about but shout “Transphobia” if some poor shlub with zero interest in our minority issues makes a slight booboo in your eyes. Sod what the rest of us feel,just let rip with the vitriol at the whole world,because of course,its everyone elses problem that no one likes you……
I have no problem with the commercial and support
Naturally, and quite understandably, any dirisive depiction of a biological male in female clothing is going to offend those who take such behaviour (for want of a better word) very seriously. The difference being of course that drag queens do it for fun, but trans people “live this sh!t.”
It might seem offensive, but in my view, trans people have to realise that men dressing as women is entertaining when it is done in an over the top obvious way. Drag acts don’t just involve putting a dress on, it’s excessive make up and relies on playing to gender stereotypes. It would be much more beneficial to educate society on the HUGE difference between transexualism and drag, rather than trying to ban drag altogether, which is rather futile.
There is a very frustrating, large gap in public knowledge/awareness about transgender people – including in the LGB community. This gap will not be filled by banning drag queens, but instead by educating people that there is no comparison.
By Medical definition, Transgender is a mental disorder. Personally, I am a Gay man and aspiring Drag Queen with LOTS of Trans friend…both male and female, they support me, and I support them. Now, to my actual point.
When a person looks at the history of Drag and Transgender peoples, you would see that they are fairly close in age, though Drag is much more publicly older. Drag began when Women were not permitted to Act in the theater, so men had to do it, thus is the Birth of Drag….What’s older then all of that? CROSS DRESSING, so everyone needs to stop complaining and grow up.
Er,sorry,you talk out of the dark place the sun dont shine from…FFS,
So,you somehow think the “mental disorder” of Transgenderism(??) was something somehow brought on by some blokes seeing actors in the 16th century dressing up as laydees and thinking,” I want some of that,I want to be a Girl…” Really,are you sure?
Mate,you are obviously very,very young,or you would have avoided bringing up the terms ” mental disorder” and ” Im a gay man” as putting the two close in a paragraph is just far too ironic………Your last words to everyone “Grow up” sorry,they seem to apply as much to you as anyone else on here…….
Ok, there are some interesting and insightful comments about this issue, but also some that stem from absolute ignorance. I would start by saying that, if the knowledge of gender-variance among the general public was as sophisticated as the knowledge of some of those who practice gender variance, then the advertisement would probbaly be taken in the spirit that Sandee suggests. Unfortunately, the public are not that sophisticated and neither, it seems, are some trans people. Drag (kings and queens) has various and sometimes complex social and political reasons for these gender performances and people who identify as trans should be applauding these performances, not deriding them. Drag can be about ‘entertainment’, but it can also be about challenging, questioning and subverting normalised images of men and women. So, I’m not saying ‘grow up’, but I am saying that some of the commentators on this site need to develop a deeper understanding of ALL forms of gender variance.