I think the defense should be highliting the parallels between this case and the Pentagon Papers of 40 years ago. Like Daniel Ellsberg, Bradley Manning did NOT “aid the enemy”, he leaked information to the press. It should also be noted that Daniel Ellsberg was never cobvicted. Next, you can also argue the American people have a right to know the shady dealings their government is up to. Next, I believe the way this is all going down that Bradley Manning is being made the scapegoat for the misdeeds of others (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld). Those others are the ones that should be on trial, not Bradley Manning. Last, unless you have gender experts ready to testify that you shouldn’t bring it up at all.
personally I think everyone has got this story wrong- he didn’t put information on wikileaks because he was gay. Obviously his sexuality did add to his stress and tension the whole time, but your sexuality doesn’t cause you to post government secrets! Surely he just did it because he felt that people deserved to hear the truth about the war, not because he was gay.
Any “crime” requires actus rea (an act or omission) and mens rea (intention). Understanding the intention means understanding the psyche of the individual. If that psyche is “disturbed” is some way, whether that be by stress, confusion, suffering bullying and harassment, depression (or whatever) then there may be grounds for considering that some or all of the mens rea is absent. Of course, this would require expert testimony from those caring for the individual concerned or specialist in assessing those with psychological or psychiatrict issues. It appears the prosecution are keen for this not to happen, and the court are withholding Mannings access to natural justice by suppressing evidence that could help him.
Joining the army to try and hide from being trans is very common in trans circles, this does not surprise me in the lest. I know of many former soldiers, sailors and aircrew who have transitioned, you could probably make a whole regiment of trans folk.
I did excately that. i served in Royal Tank Regiment and was risking a one way trip to Colchester and Dishonourable Discharge every day I was in the Army. I came out in 1990 but was recalled in 1991 for Op Granby. I didn’t fully come out as transsexual until 2007.
This case is purley about passing classified information to people who shouldn’t have it. Nothing else.
I too served in the 1st Battalion of the Light Infantry and almost went to Colchester under the guise of homosexuality, but I managed to talk my way out of it and palm it off as my GF clothes.
Transgirls always overcompensate as they go into ultra male mode to try and get rid of their feelings.
A few weeks ago I found myself amongst a group of women who had launched into recollections of their magnificent exploits in the armed services whilst hiding from being trans. They seemed to think they were impressing the mother of a transsexual child who was present. The picture emerging was that this was what used to happen, that they were once like her child; that her child would have been going on to do that if things had not changed.
I found myself whimpering, almost in shame, that I could never have done that. Instead, at 9, my grandfather, seeing me staring at newsreel stills outside our local cinema of a rock star being enlisted, assured me that national service would doubtless be abolished before that could happen to me. He knew I had asked for help to be a girl before I was three.
There are many highly diverse conditions herded under “trans”, and it really would help our coexistence, and even our progress, if people didn’t repeatedly project their own upon others’.
To state that any crime is purely about actions demonstrates a lack of understanding of natural justice … every crime is about actions and intention – thus the psychological and psychiatric well being of the accused is very relevant. The experiences Manning has undergone may not be as difficult as others have experienced in the military (or other service with access to secret/classified information) or it may be worse … thats not the issue, its the impact that the experiences had on Mannings mental situation …
I was under extreme mental pressure whilst I was in the Army and the Civil Service and handled sensitive and classified information but I never told anyone who wasn’t cleared anything about what I saw. Some of the things I saw I disagreed with but I kept my mouth shut as required by law, I will never divaulge any secrets that I gained during my Government service. Those secrets may or may not be high level but they are still secrets that i was told never to divaulge to unauthorised persons. So the arguement that some people have used on the other debate on this case that nothing of importance was gib=ven away. IT DOESN’T MATTER.The crime is the same. Let the military justice system take its course. There might not even be a Courts Martial.
In terms of the mens rea argument in court – its not the mental pressure or anguish you are under but the effect it has on you. Fortunately, it did not have any effect on you but that does not mean it did not on Manning.
Secondly, there are established principles that protect US and UK citizens from jeopardy as a result of whistle blowing whether to internal or external person or persons. Unfortunate that whistle blowing is not being respected in this case – or appears not to be.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs makes very clear this was not at all a case of trying to hide from being trans. Instead it was someone early in figuring they were trans, lacking the clear signpost of sexual dysphoria, enlisting to do work they believed in and would use their skills, despite being androphilic and the army’s then homophobic and transphobic policy of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
There are many highly diverse experiences and conditions herded under “trans”, and it really would help our coexistence, and even our progress, if people didn’t repeatedly project their own upon others’.
Interesting that the prosecutors clearly have no interest in the facts just attack and to claim he is guilty no matter what state of mind Bradley may have been in.
Whether they like it or not Bradley Manning is still innocent until proven gulity and that means All the facts surround this case including the person.
Do I think Mr Manning will get a fair trial? No. and it is clear the prosecutors would prefer any but.
Military tribunals can not be called fair in any way as they serve as victim, judge, jury and executioner/jailer. Fair is unachievable under these circumstances as the outcome has already been decided before the opening statements in court.
Completely agree Helen.
I am afraid in my experiance you are wrong Helen. In the British Armed forces a Courts Martial is presided over by a civilian Judge known a Judge Advocate (they also advise the court on law) and has upto 7 officers/ warrant officers as the panal and the verdict is decided by a majority vote. Like a civilian court there is a prosecuter ( someone from the Services Prosecuting Authority) and a defence who are usually civilian solictors. There is a system of appeals
Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way in the US. Bradley Manning could easily be railroaded simply because they want him to be the fall guy. I believe that like Daniel Ellsberg before him he’s done a great public service bringing government shady dealing to light. Unless he has good lawyers he will wind up in Leavenworth for a long time. Ellsberg got off more easily because he was a government (CIA) analyst, not a military member.
Indeed and lets not forget this so called crime he is supposed to have committed carries the death penalty even though the lawyers have said they won’t push for that.
OK Robyn but we’re not talking about the British Court Martials are we…. this is about the US.
The systems are almost identical.
I feel sorry for Manning: on record as saying “wouldn’t mind going to prison.. if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy.” …
… and yet here on the story where Pink News finally starts mentioning hir’s gender ID issues, Manning is still being headlined as a gay man… with pictures of him as a boy plastered all over the story.
Pink news, you’re usually quite good on trans issues, but on this occasion you should be ashamed.
Why wouldn’t he be identified as a gay man?
It’s a huge stretch to describe him as trans.
He is facing life in prison for whistleblowing. I reckon he will be using every and any avenue possible to try to stay out of jail.
If he specfically identifies as trans in his trial then it’s fair to call him trans, but up to now he has only and ever identified as a gay man.
And even if he has a female alter-ego called Breanna, maybe he is simply a transvestite gay male?
Or does transvestitism no longer exist?
Look at the quote in my comment. Does that, or does that not sound like Manning describing hirself as trans? Manning even favourably compares prison to being shown and talked about as a boy all over the world.
… it’s about respect, which is sorely lacking here.
“wouldn’t mind going to prison.. if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy.” …
Source for this? Where does this quote come from and who has independently verified it? (his lawyer doesn’t count because the lawyer is not an independent witness)
He has been imprisoned without trial for 18 months, only allowed to see his lawyer.
Any quotes attributed to him are suspect as he has had ZERO contact with the media and has been in solitary confinement.
Trying to assign a trans identity on someone based on hearsay is hardly acceptable either.
He may be a transvestite.
Here you go… http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs … and suddenly, possible reasons for his treatment at the hands of those holding him, especially re: clothing, become much clearer.
As for “transvestite”, do you not see the trans in that term? Even if you were to argue that it were irrelevant, his own statements are enough to cast doubt over the possibility of his being a gay man, not to mention the fact that he clearly states that being reported as such would be worse for him than any other aspect of prison.
His being held without trial, in solitary confinement for 18 months has notthing to do with him being allegedly trans. He is being held by the US Army – an institution with absolutely no regard for democracy or human rights.
As for his ‘gender identity disorder’ – well ereading that transcript it remains possible that he is a gay male transvestite.
Either way I suspect he will be in solitary confinement for the rest of his life. That’s the way the US Army operates.
” i wish it were as simple as “hey, go transition”… but i need to get paperwork sorted… financial stuff sorted… legal stuff… and im still deployed, so i have to redeploy back to the US and be outprocessed” …
Hmmm. A stated desire to transition. With regards to his being held, the way in which his imprisonment was conducted is the issue I alluded to, not the fact of his imprisonment.
Looking at the details of the case and the determination of the American system yet again to deny justice he stands no chance. It’s ironic that being moral and honest in a country like America means didaster. only 2 of 38 witnesses allowed, etc,….. this is being seen to be a mockery of justice and will remain famous for many years. Anybody for a lovely American holiday anyone? only thing is you might come home in a box to quote a famous pop song!…
@ Stu there is a huge difference between whistleblowing and divaulging military and state secrets to a grubby website which can be read and used by enemies. This soldier is an Intelligence Specalist and the information he allegedly gave to this website wasn’t whistleblowing but on the verges of espionage. When you are whislteblowing you don’t give classified information
what a load of old rubbish. we aren’t fools, we can see propaganda. you mean he released information that showed how dishonest and inconsiderate the US of A is. First it was Britain doing huge murder, then Germany, then America. The rubbish being spouted now for the nonesense it is in future, and Bush Blair and other will be seen for the mass murderers they are. You will never hide it, even with a cursory observation of the facts it’s blatant. Manning did what he thought was the right thing to stop great unchristian evils being perpetrated. he is a hero, like it or not.
You may be right …
Surely thats for the court to decide, fairly and impartially, and allow the defendent access to natural justice? Strange that they seem keen to impede his access to justice if this is nothing to do with whistleblowing …
And how do you feel about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? He was a CIA intelligence analyst and he gave information to the NY Times while the war in Vietnam was still going on. He was never convicted.
I don’t know anything at all about that case but it all depends on the evidence presented.It also would have been a different type of legal procedure as this would have been, I assume, a civilian court rather than a military one Don’t forget this is not a trial it is a PRE TRIAL hearing to see if there is enough evidence for a full Courts Martial. This is part of the US and UK legal systems . In the UK it is called a Magistrates Hearing in the US it is called a Pre Trial hearing.
@Another Hannah heros don’t give away classified information to a grubby website. Bush and Blair are not mass murderers as the actions in Iraq and Afganistan had UN backing.
It is far braver to do the right thing when it means great suffering than it is to crawl and creep and allow any evil to happen for your own gain as so many in the forces do. We’ve all seen the endemic evidence of criminal dirty grotty behaviour in the US and UK forces, and we saw how it was hushed up.
I have yet to see evidence of this sort behaviour is widespread within the British Armed Forces as you claim. There have been isolated cases but these have been dealt with and the guilty parties punished, I may have left the Army 21 years ago but I still have friends serving and I think they would have told me if they had seen any of this behaviour. Some alledged cases have been faked by the gutter press and were quickly dismissed.
espionage? that shows how dishonest and criminal the US and UK are prepared to be in pursuit of their own ends doesn’t it. He has had nothing to do with al queda or the taliban so that is an utterly dirty, grubby, low life, pond life, scum tactic to use calling it espionage. Wikileaks has many very prestigious backers so sto[p telling lies you low life.
@ Another Hannah, I said verging on espionage. This soldier (who is an Intelligence Specalist) is accused of passing classified information to persons who were not supposed to have it by law. That information was then posted on this grubby,unethical website so that the whole world including Al Queda and the Taliban could see it. That information should have never been published as it could help the enemy. Supporters of this soldier should ask themselves this question, What is more important? Knowing this information or the lives of members of British and US Armed Forces? You might even know those affected by the release of this classified information. We will probably never know how many lives if any were lost because of this leaking. But leaking of this information is unforgivable
I am not telling lies. If i am I want you to prove it
There’s kind of a MAJOR stumbling block to the effort to crucify her… the fact that a DoD forensic investigator failed to turn up ANY TRACE of the files that showed up on WikiLeaks on her computer.
And that’s being held out of the press, too. What is impossible to miss, however, is the sudden disappearance of her defenders in the public at large. Depressing comment on the state of trans-misogyny in the world.
CIA propaganda, they start wars and even kill Americans like President John Kennedy and they think they get way with it, they will pay in the end. This bit about Manning is just to make him look bad the CIA and their buddies sling mud to cover up their crimes by getting you to think badly about a person or group (LGBT people) and even some religions in America and the world. Anytime you you hear somebody being torn down go see for your self if it is true, a lot of the time it is false and the CIA are using Psychological Warfare to destroy somebody or group. They are the “new” way to get rid of people they do not like. Only problem is the CIA are an insane bunch of mentally twisted people.