So rather than table a motion to amend the necessary parts of the Equality Act to allow freedom of conscience by religious ministers, they table one to stop religious civil partnerships completely?
I think that says all we need to know about their agenda and that their concern is religious civil partnerships in general and not just worries for individuals and organisations who wish to opt out!
The word homophobe shouldn’t be thrown around lightly but….
You make a very good point. It makes it clear this is just a pretext to impose a sort of religious uniformity on the issue, against the very principles of religious freedom which they claim to be defending.
Edward Leigh (who is the MP for the constituency next to mine) is a full time bigot. Check out his voting record especially the twelpth line down:
His anti gay voting appears to have moved down the list.
And what about the churches that DO want to perform religious civil partnerships? (and same-sex marriage).
They don’t care, because their aim is to impose their homophobic religious interpretation on everyone. They hate that there could be a more enlightened religious view, and clearly want to suppress it through the secular law.
No surprises here then. This oaf has always voted against gay rights on every opportunity.
And hey! Guess what? He’s a Roman Catholic. Who would have thought it!
He was even offered the UK’s ambassadorship to the Vatican. Shame he didn’t take it. We could have got the nasty old git out the way.
He is on the far right wing of the party, but not without influence in it. However, if only four MP’s (be nice to know who) have supported this EDM, I doubt it will get anywhere.
As Ireland has withdrawn it’s ambassador to Rome because of priestly abuse and cover ups, perhaps it’s time for the UK to do the same, in the light of recent events in N. Ireland. In fact why does the Vatican have such status in the first place, it’s just a building with a wealthy bank.
Strictly speaking it’s a country throgh a deal with Mussolini.
Typical cultist Catholic.
Edward Leigh, I smite thee – book of Sam, ch1, v 1 – here endeth MY sermon
Here’s the list of signatories, which has risen to nine bigots, as of now. The usual suspects!
Bone, Peter Conservative Party
Brazier, Julian Conservative Party
Bruce, Fiona Conservative Party
Dorries, Nadine Conservative Party
Jackson, Stewart Conservative Party Leigh, Edward Conservative Party
Pritchard, Mark Conservative Party
Robertson, Laurence Conservative Party
Turner, Andrew Conservative Party
Thanks for that….
So we have the usual claque of Roman Catholics (Leigh and Brazier), Christian Evangelicals (Fiona Bruce) and far-right nut-jobs (all the rest) who would be more at home in the BNP.
I don’t think this EDM will go anywhere…
No great surprise to find that arch-bigot, Brazier, also a signatory … he once libelled me, in front of quite a large audience (also recorded by R4 and ‘Out This Week’) and I’ve always regreted not having taken the loathsome oik to the cleaners …
Didn’t get them fair did it!!! lol
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – not only should religious institutions be allowed to conduct same-sex marriages, but if they want to conduct any marriages at all they should be FORCED to.
Shops are not allowed to withold their services from gay people. Theatres and bus companies and employers are not allowed to withold their services from gay people. We don’t give any of those institutions a “conscientious” exemption from our equality provisions. Religious institutions should be made to obey exactly the same laws as everyone else.
They do not deserve special privileges. There is nothing special about them. They’re self-appointed private interest groups, nothing more.
But that’s exactly the point – they’re self-appointed private interest groups, they’re not providing a public service any more than a men’s club is. If you see them as clubs, which in essence they are, I have no problem with them establishing their own rules.
I agree with Rehan. They are clubs which should be permitted freedom of association – like ours.
The problem lies in the tory party’s concept itself, full stop. That’s the reason homophobes feel atracted and vote for them. Homosexuality will never be accepted as equal to heterosexuality within the ethos of conservatism. The party is chock-a-block with homophobes and DC pretends they don’t exist.
Yawn. How is it there in 1985 Beberts?
You should join us, it’s 2012 soon here!!
I really don’t care about this.
WHy the government (or LGBT community) is wasting time on an issue that means we are still 2nd class citizens is irrelevant.
This whole ‘allow cults to perform CP’s’ is merely a tactic being used by the government to delay equality.
Marriage equality should be the focus.
Once we are legal under the law it will be a minor detail to amend the law to allow the tiny minority of cults which support equality (quakers, unitarians, reform jews) to hold them in their buildings.
The vast majority of religious cults will continue to refuse to perform CP’s in their buildings.
All religions are irrational. The vast majority of religions are motivated by hatred and diviision (although the buddhists seems OK)
None of us speak for all of the LGBT communities, so whether it is of interest to you or me or not is irrelevant, it does matter for some … and if you say the number it matters for is small (and therefore a minority) then why are we fighting for equality and expecting it as a minority ourselves?
And if civil marriage is equalised by making it gender neutral then the cults will automatically be allowed to marry gay couples if they want.
This legislation is irrelevantr, unncessary and is being promoted as some type of progress, when in fact, marriage equality will do away with the need for it.
This useless legislation is nothing but a diversionary tactic
I want equal marriage, some people want equal CPs too … I think we should respect their wishes …
“None of us speak for all of the LGBT communities, ”
Indeed.esp dAVID thankfully.
i it just me or is it the pis is MR Leigh a tad TANTASIC ?
NO religious organisation will be forced into performing gay marriages – this legislation merely enables those who wish to have a religious marriage to do so in the religious organisation to which they belong. If their own particular religious organisation opts out of conducting such marriages, then those couples who wish to have a religious ceremony will have the choice of going somewhere else which does.
Civil partnerships (of whichever gender(s) the couples are) would not be conducted in a church, mosque or synagogue anyway! They would be performed in other venues.
Churches have the right not to perform gay marriages but they have no right to prevent those who do wish to have a religious ceremony from doing so. They are entitled to their views but cannot inflict them upon everyone else.
This legislation has been a waste of time since day 1.
Just introduce gender neutral civil marriage and the question of whether religious cults be allowed to marry same-sex couples if they want to will be automatically resolved.
This whole issue was invented to avoid having to tackle the far more important issue of marriage equality.
Specifically, this issue was invented by the last Government to avoid having to tackle marriage equality. Civil partnerships in religious settings was part of Labour’s 2010 Equality Act (the legislation which explicitly legalised various forms of trans discrimination).
With the Lib Dems, the one major party to support equal marriage, in Government we are seeing progress on that front too, but this consultation will not require any further legislative effort, so it’s not a bad idea to get it sorted now.
Of course, I’d like to see full equality of marriage and civil partnership, but I don’t have a problem with the Government working within the existing legal framework at the same time as they seek further equality.
But bear in mind that the cults which will offer same sex CP’s are tiny, tiny little churches.
The vast majority of the religious cults will remain as viciously bigotted and hateful, as they always have.
A yes – minorities don’t matter, do they dAVID
David ….on day 1 (ie over 2 yrs ago) no-one was talking about gay marrigae. This change is long overdue as it is and debating it after it becomes legal on Monday is daft. If Cameron can not stamp out this nonsense now then forget gay marriage, it won’t happen.
Do you honestly think this brigade won’t come out with a myriad of wrecking legal arguments before gay marriage is debated. This is a dry run and complete destruction of their argument now is the way forward.
Successful opts out for the churches now will mean that this argument can be carried forward to marriage.
Yes, I agree it’s a poxy irrelevant change which will benefit hardly anyone but that really is missing the point!!!!
How insulting, David, to those with a CP.
Insulting and patronising …
Should you be putting a picture like that on a website before the watershed?
It’s the tide of history, it is inescapable, and they’re trying to stand in its path and it’s not going to work.
the concern needs to be addressed.
Yawn. Do you really have such appalling self esteem about your own faith in the imaginary sky-fairy hat you need to post these “erudite” comments on a gay site?
If you’ve wasted your life chasing the approval of imaginary deities, don’t take it out on those who haven’t.
I agree, but JohnB is not your ordinary Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Crackpot!
Apparently JohnB has been co-opted onto an Equality board of his local strategic partnerhip in essex, as well as working as a Plymouth Breathren minister.
Apparently (If you can believe it) the equality board JohnB claims to belong to, is in charge of making sure local buisness abides by the equality act.
LOL! Oh great. With people like him on our side, how can we lose! This is the man who thinks evolution is a “failed belief system”, but didn’t know what a Neanderthal was. I love been told that science is wrong by people who can hardly understand a children’s biology book….
Will: to set the record straight, I have never pretended to have an in depth understanding of biology. At best, I know some of the principles and like most schoolboys can remember the diagrams of figures representing the evolutionary development between chimpanzee and man, with your Neanderthal thingy somewhere in-between. It is still my understanding that the links between these stages have not been firmly established.
I am not a 7 (literal) day creationist although I believe in intelligent design. I have not ruled out evolution altogether and base that as much on some of my understandings of physical science e.g. relativity and quantum theory, which lends support to the old universe ideas accepted by most scientists and allows for (at least) the possibility of evolutionary development. While you despise my belief in “imaginary fairies” it is no less credible than your belief that science holds all the answers, including the meaning of life itself.
As for being on the Equality Board, while LBGT issues is but one of many that crop up, I try to be even handed and don’t believe I have said or done anything you should worry about.
“While you despise my belief in “imaginary fairies” it is no less credible than your belief that science holds all the answers, including the meaning of life itself. ”
No, sorry, this is AGAIN your offensive lack of education. Science is not a “belief” or has “credibility”. Science is about facts based in proof. You’re belief system is not a comparison of likes here.
You’re failure to “believe” evolution is simply only you do not understand it. Its an admission of ignorance, nothing more.
“I try to be even handed”
Oh, how thankful we all should be that you try! Seriously, religious types like you quite simply disgust me with your sanctimonious ego-eccentricity. Religions have no place on the board designed to protect civil liberties – religion is the very text book definition of prejudice, and you’re a living example of it John with your efforts to “try”. Sorry if that seem offensive, but the fact you can’t accept how bigoted your religion (and all religion) are is irrelevant.
Will: if only you can see how bigoted you are. Just because you operate from the safe havens of gay website does not make you any less ingorant or arrogant, despite all your professed knowledge. Your religion is science and you can’t see it. Science is a wonderful and necessary thing (we both agree) but like religion it has its limitations (this I suspect we disagree).
You might want to rewrite history but many of the good things we enjoy today is because of people of faith giving to their community yesterday. When it comes to things like equality boards, we have every much a right to be part of it as anyone else if only to provide a balance to nutters like you who think their powers of reason and faith in their god (science) will solve everything and feel they can bully and belittle anyone who cares to challenge them – and the hypocrisy of it – you call us ignorant bigots! Balance and tolerance are some the essentials that we need to have in to live together in our pluralistic societyy, which we all have to do.
On a lighter note, I am off on my foreign travels from tomorrow and won’t be back to the new year – so may I wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year :-)
In what way is Will a bigot for placing a higher value on science, logic and reason?
@JohnB — that’s not quite true though is it ? You have stated before that you have read extensively on Darwinian evolution. Yet when asked to describe your understanding it is quite clear that you have very little knowledge of it ! Before rejecting the theory, perhaps you should read more on it.
The diagrams of a line of figures from apes to men is famously a massive misunderstanding of Darwin’s theory.
I don’t think any scientist would claim that science holds all the answers. That is * your * misrepresentation of it, and is probably more descriptive of your confidence in your beliefs.
People on this site do not despise your beliesf, but do despise being thought of as abominations, and do despise being denied the rights of other human beings.
Having read some of your postings, I have a great concern about your suitability to be in an equality board. I would urge you to tell us which board, so that we could address our concerns about you to its chair.
@JohnB — can’t see anything bigoted in what Will’s said.
You are clearly not suitable to be on an equality board as you don’t think LGBT deserve the same rights as heterosexual people ! You seek to promote inequality. You’re against it.
At last you acknowledge this is gay website. It’s for LGBT people, to talk about the things of importance to them. It is NOT a forum for them to have to defend themselves against people like you, and you abuse the site by so doing. It is hypocritical of you to do this and not extend the courtesy to us by telling us where you seek the amity and fellowship of your group. I would suggest your refusal to tell us your church is because of fear that we would turn up and behave there like you behave here.
“Will: if only you can see how bigoted you are. ”
Likewise, I’m rather sick of your sanctimonious arrogance when to comers to how we should follow your opinions on what gods thinks and how you can interfere in my life. The arrogance astounds me as much as your ignorance.
“Your religion is science and you can’t see it”
Stupid opinion based on your own ignorance. Science is not a belief system. Its a methodology of logic and reason.
“balance to nutters like you”
Yeah, nice one. I’m the nutter simple becuase I do not believe in a sky fairy and wasted my entire life encouraging others to do so. Thanks for the affirmation that people like you are as blind about their ignorance as they are bigoted.
How enlightened you are to think you have the ear of the creator. People get locked up as insane for less. Well done.
How odd that you should suddenely be going away for your Christmas holidays!!!
Curious, how Plymouth Breathren ministers have more than a month off at Christmas, depsite Christmas being the most important time of the year for Christians.
Like I said previously, you appear to be not only a liar and fantasist . . . but some one with knowledge of science which barely reaches GCSE level (as revealed and exposed in the evolution debate we had with you some time ago)
JohnK not that I’m obliged to answer your latest daitribe but fyi:
the reasons are family and business and is the time we can all manage. Your ignorance continues to manifest itself. I’m fairly ok with christmas but for a lot of PB folk it has little relevance.
I have a B.Sc with chemstry as my main subject and, as for your personal attacks, I suggest you a. look at yourself, b. get your facts right and c. learn some manners.
Anyway, I’m off and may I (sincerely) wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year :-)
So a Plymouth Brethren Priest is off on holiday over a Christmas, what about the commitment to you parish, flock etc.
JohnB . . . stop playing the viticm card, when you fail to answer the contradiction, I am quite olbiged to call you a fantasist and a liar.
With regards your BSc in Chemistry, I do not think so, not according to the lack of sceintific knowledge you displayed on the Evolution debate.
@JohnB — I think if you don’t want to answer people’s questions then maybe you should post on this site. What do you think ?
I am certainly no supporter of a lot of the churches views (and when I say “church”, I also include all the other religions) – but nevertheless, JohnB is being erudite, polite and honest in his remarks, even if you don’t wish to believe them. Hurling insults and ad hominem arguments back simply make you and the LGBT standpoint look like idiots that cannot handle a mature debate without sinking to playground comments.
That’s your Mum, that is.
I do not think there is anthing erudite, polite or honest about JohnB’s contradictions and refusal to address them.
I agree, my post was slightly out of alignment, as well as continuing a challenge from a previous thread, which does not add to the contunity. Thanks for highlighting that.
“That’s your Mum, that is.”
Curiously nothing erudite, in your last muttering.
I profoundly disagree with JohnB on many things, and I am more than prepared to challenge him where appropriate …
I do feel some of the attacks on him on this site are exceptionally harsh – given that he usually tries to engage in reasoned debate and has (at times) acknowledged fair points made by many contributors on PN.
I am sure he expects a certain level of challenge etc on PN but I would hope we would all be able to challenge with a level of respect and not resort to insults
What with gay men and immature, nasty, passive aggressive and bitchy comments?
It must be horrendous being this hate-filled, childish and plain nasty all the time?
All JohnB said was that a concern needs to be addressed… What on earth is wrong with that? Or would some of you rather just one big homo-fascist world, where no one else has opinions, rights or concerns about their own needs and wants?
By the way, before some of you put on your paranoid hats, I am not the same person as JohnB… Immaturity and paranoia seem to go hand in hand on the threads on this site!
“immaturity and prarnoai seem to go hand in hand on these thread on this site”
@John, so why do you post on this site then?
@John — at face value I would agree with what you say. However, you might not be familiar with some of JohnB’s other postings.
That’s not the point.
I have noticed people being ticked down simply for who they are rather than what they are actually saying. That simply demonstrates the animosity some people bear without even allowing them a fair crack of the whip.
I appreciate there are trolls like Keith who should just be ignored, but I for one quite relish having a good debate with an opposing standpoint, rather than the constant barrage of yes-men and noddies all agreeing with each other.
No religious cult is compelled to acknowledge or oversee a CP in their premises, the wording can’t get any clearer. Your and your holy roller bunch obviously have a convenient case of dyslexia when it suits you.
In regard to same-sex civil marriage equality, all of the ten countries allowing it have laws that explicity state that no religious denomination or cult will be compelled to perform or recognise such marriages. There has been no incidence of polygamy, incest or bestiality as a result, something that your side needs to prove with factual evidence. Good luck with that.
Another thing, since when do religious cults get to dictate to others who can and cannot have a civil marriage, since when? Religion doesn’t own marriage, the state does when it issues certificates of marriage. How would you like it if our civil government suddenly mandated civil marriages only just as they do in more progressive EU countries? What would you do then? Better still, how would you like it having a government dictate what religious cults can and cannot do?
The concern has been undressed, and it looks ridiculous.
Er no it doesn’t. Some idiots like these just need media attention. Nothing more. They are losers end of.
I can just see how this play out once the marriage equality consultation begins. The roman cultists will be rearing their ugly heads yet again with tales of fire and brimstone, heralding polygamy, incest, bestiality, you name it, they’ll use it, yet they can’t even produce the factual evidence to support any of it. I’ll say it again, the catholic emancipation act was one of the worst laws to have been enacted in the UK. Bring it back!
Which is why this legislation is such a waste of time and has been since day 1.
The vast majority of religious cults want us to have no rights whatsoever, so why expend energy on allowing a handul of tiny cults to perform religious CP’s.
May as well go the whole hog.
Legislate for gender neutral civil marriage and this automatically resolves the issue of cults being allowed to officiate at same sex weddings.
Perhaps Robert we can also send you to the gulag.
Good point Robert!!
The white coat brigade strike again. Fringe right-wing religionists
Passive aggressive. Not normally a sign of good mental stability, neither is creating derogatory new words that say more about the one using them. “Fringe right-wing religionists”. If you can be rational and emotionally stable and objective in your comments, then I fear that you might be the one in need of the “white coat brigade”. Use of childish rhetoric is normally a sign of immaturity and a lack of a coherent argument.
Indeed!! lol White coats that really should straight jackets.
I always wonder what it is that drives this obsessional hatred in men like these ? Something is burred deep in these guys psyches.
It’s called, roman catholicism, a defect.
Religious belief should be regarded as a mental illness.
If a 60 year old professed a belief in Santa Claus he would be regarded as sick in the head.
Yet to believe in the existence of almighty creator’s only son (who was born of a virgin) who turned water into wine, is deemed worthy of respect.
Those who believe in ‘god’ would be deserving of pity, were it not for the fact that belief in ‘god’ so often meets supportuing hatred and bigotry, and constantly trying to undermine our secular democracy.
You really are stupid David. You gave not the first idea of the concept f theology. You reduce ideas to childlike simplistic tokens and then argue against them. Truly, the less you know the more certain you are.
You really are stupid David. You have not the first idea of the concept of theology. You reduce ideas to childlike simplistic tokens and then argue against them. Truly, the less you know the more certain you are.
I wouldnt say he is completely stupid …
Blinkered, yes …
Bigoted in the polar opposite of the Archbishop of Glasgow (but just as bigoted) …
Stupid …no … and he occasionally has some good suggestions …
His choice of language and level of humanity is quite disappointing usually …
No I have to agree with de Villiers Stu.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs dAVID regardless what you think. What they are not enetitled to is to allow thoses beliefs to discrimination and fester hatred against others.
Usually they’re classic closet cases.
Is alcoholism permitted in christianity?
The broken veins on Mr Leigh’s mug, indicate a fondness for liquor.
And six children indicates a fondness for the other. Must be costing the country a fortune in repeat prescriptions for Viagra.
Nah, that just shows he’s done it six times. He’s a Catholic, can’t use contraception and can’t wank (which would involve impure thoughts); both of which are terrible sins resulting in fire and damnation!
Honestly, all you need to ask him is “does he eat shellfish, pig-meat or meat on a Friday?” Because those things are just as much an abomination as a man lying with a man as if with a woman.
If you have twitter send him a congratulaTORY tweet on his prejudiced and outdated views – @edwardleighac
It’s sad that these people still believe they have the RIGHT to uphold prejudice against others.
He certainly has some supporters – when I tweeted him I was told by various people that I lied when I told Mr Leigh that he is homophobic
What an ugly man. Six children too! His wife deserves a medal.
Now that the state religion has just announced it sees no problem with the current equalities law regarding religious CPs, this is surely going to deal a blow to the Roman cult. This is also a silver lining in this for the marriage equality consultation. The C of E would have to use the same argument that the wording of a same-sex civil marriage law does not compel religious denominations to recognise or officiate same-sex civil marriages because they is no religious component in a civil marriage.
…there is a silver lining in this for the marriage equality consultation”…. there is not religious component in a civil marriage…I meant to have said.
Ah, the party of small government and freedom of the individual? Perhaps the only liberty they really value is the liberty to exploit and rip of. Very disappointing. Feared it would have been too good to last.
The government will override this, surely. If there so few signatories surely that s a good thing?
LGF are running a campaign I see urging us to download a template letter and send to eveyyone in the house of lords – I’ve done it and got good responses. Must admit I didn’t dare send to the Tory peers, sorry but looking at their photos they all appear to come from old Tory stock, maybe wrong but my gut feeling is not to trust them.
I think the house of lords debate on the 15th is the worrying one but this EDM once again highlight s how difficult gay marriage is going to be!
Have you never heard of not judging a book by its cover, John?
Many long-lived well-off establishment families have long had gay family members and learned to live with it long before it was acceptable amongst the rest of us. Frequently it was seen as a blessing because then the ‘family silver’ would come back to the main family before long, as the gay son or daughter would have no off-spring.
The most pig-ignorant people are not necessarily the ugly ones, apart of course from the obvious, whose inner vileness has permeated to his whiter-than-white skin.
I already thought that Edward Leigh was trouble and now I know it.
Surely we can get these homophobes prosecuted.
Would that not just make them martyrs and try to claim them moral high ground? Debate and ridicule would be more effective than prosecution, which sounds a bit authoritarian.
all nine signatures on the EDM are conservative, the “prayer” on the 15th to annul this change is being brought about by Tory peers. What’s happenning in the Tory party? Don’t they realise this is one of the big promises from them on LGBT equality. Either get the stick out or get rid of these dissenters. They’ve even alientated the CofE with their antics and their only supporters are the nutty Christian fundamentalist groups. What tricks are they going to perform when gay marriage is debated? The tory party needs to get their act together, can’t they control their ranks? They’re beginning to look like the old homophobic tory party again. …I don’t for an instant believe their motives are to protect the churches from legal action..does anybody?
These people are idiots.
All they are doing is creating animosity between gays and the Church and trying to set us upon each other whilst missing the real point of the whole debate. Nobody is forcing churches to do anything; all we want is civil marriages instead of the inferior and patronising civil partnership.
I was never one for marriage until now.
I’ve seen the light.
Anything else show us as less that the rest of society. We pay the same taxes and deserve the same rights.
You’re slow, but you get there in the end.
That’s all most of us ever wanted.
It’s his wife you feel desperately sorry for, waking up to that lying alongside you every morning. God Almighty, it enough to make you puke.
Well what do you expect from losers?