See, now this just genuinely scares me…
refer page 6 http://issuu.com/janephillips/docs/bs10_issuu?mode=window&backgroundColor=%23222222
What is it…
A self portrait?
The “pastors” in question should be charged with manslaughter.
I had a similar thought when I read this. It should certainly be looked at by the CPS to see if there are grounds for such charges to be made.
Am not sure manslaughter will be a sustainable charge … but I do think that there are offences in relation to deception, and psychological injury that causes physical harm …
Have Sky referred this matter to the police?
No-one can force people to be stupid. They offered a (ridiculous) service which these people freely accept and not seek a secondary medical opinion. Their death was their own fault, but I agree this story should be spread so people aren’t retarded enough to try this in the future.
Thats why we have deception offences, however inconceivable the “cheat” etc is to an outsider with the benefit of hindsight – some people may be conned …
I hope there will be some action taken to deter those who wish to con vulnerable people
Nothing like compassion for the vulnerable and deceived, is there?
What action can be taken? The religious folk performing it probably thought it would work, fundamentalists tend to be a little bit nuts like that. They’re stupid, but so are the people who have chosen of their own free will to take part of these services and not seek out a medical confirmation afterwards. The religious folk didn’t kill them, utter stupidity did. I don’t think anything should happen to the people running it, this wasn’t a cheat or a con if the priests are that blindly religious.
Stupidity should be painful and in this case it was. Now it’s sad that people have died but it was no-one’s fault but their own. Pressing charges against or fining the people performing this ‘AIDS exorcism’ just sends the message that other people are responsible for someone else’s lack of foresight.
it is important to get the word out that if you convice people to stop taking their treatment you are guilty of endagering their lives, you need to be charged, so that you will not do so again, also giving them registered charity status is not advisaable
Indeed, and Mr Brownings comments are nothing like it …
But Stuart/Keith don’t think that. They just state such things to create attention, nothing more.
“They own fault for believing, they could have just walked away.”
You mean like you don’t from here?
I think it’s rather unfair people mark these people down for saying this.
Unfortunately there is no monopoly on people being gullible. If there were then all religion would be banned for making deception and spreading untruths. Faith healers and snake oil merchants have been around since time immemorial, and there are always going to be those people out there that actually suck this crap in.
I do think there needs to be some sort of law that would ultimately hold these organisations responsible for their actions though.
They may have more success in civil court with seeking a wrongful death verdicts. The way the law is wired to protect religions and their hocus pocus priests any criminal charge against them would probably prove hopeless. What should and what can happen are two different matters.
Certainly the rule of evidence allow heresay in a coroners court … and it can then force open a criminal inquiry
Disgusting. Pagan rituals make more sense than these horrid practices. Surely there must be some crime they can be charged with. These lives prematurely taken with this hocus pocus demand justice.
Not really, remember that DJ who went to Uganda for channel 4, and went through a ridiculous witchdoctor “cure” for being gay?
It’s all the same hocus pocus, though healing may be helped along by a positive frame of mind as the mind does impact the health of our bodies. But that’s biology, not supernatural.
Don’t blame the pagans for the actions of these christians.
Not blaming them — just saying they make more sense.
“Pagan” from the Latin “paganus” (rustic, rural, backward) is actually an abusive term of derision used by early christians to belittle people who adhered to non-christian classical religious practise. It plays right into the hands of the christian lobby to use it like this,
It was also explained to me years ago by a Latin professor that it was a perfectly acceptable term for the religion of the rural population and had no derisive connotation and that the term was used long before the christians showed up on the scene. Keep in mind the early christians took many words that are perfectly fine and turned them in derogatory terms.
Pagan rituals make exactly the same amount of sense – none.
I’m a pagan, in the sense that roman catholics and baptists are both counted as christians. What path I follow is unimportant here. What is important is that I take my HIV meds, my diabetes meds, my blood pressure meds and other allopathic meds because I know that the science behind them works. They do work that I can’t. If each tablet goes down with a blessing, that’s my business and no-one else’s. Pagans are eminently practical: use what is known to work, help it along with a spell or blessing if you feel the need. But ultimately, it’s the allopathic drug that does the work. That’s where these xtians screwed up: they didn’t allow for the fact that their god might not have provided the antiHIV drugs for them…
Another much needed nail in coffin of religion – Stupid, ignorant, self important retards offering superstition as an alternative for medication that works – are there really people stupid and unevolved enough to believe this – or is it another example of the African communities fear of being damned to hell a place that doesn’t even exist!!
Here’s what I don’t understand.
HIV is a treatable condition. There is medication available which can offer a good quality of life with a good life expectancy.
So why on EARTH would these moronic cultists not regard this medecine as a gift from their ‘god’.
It’s as a result of wilful stupidity and ignorance on the part of the cults and their believers.
I talked through a similar matter with a Christian friend (who is totally accepting of gay people) a year or two back
Their take on medication etc etc was that the medication or treatment regime could be either the entire or part of an answer that they sought to prayers to heal someone. They sought to explain to me that there were cases of miraculous healing (and as a clinician there have been some cases of illness that colleagues of mine have encountered where apparent spontaneous recovery has occurred with no feasible scientific explanation – whether that is a miracle or not I am dubious). However my friends view was that if medication etc was working or helping, then whilst he would not stop praying for a total healing he would not support telling someone to stop taking medication without support from the clinician who had prescribed the medication the patient was taking.
Regardless of debate on faith itself – given some people have faith, this I found reasonable
I want to reinforce that the actions uncovered by Sky about a number of churches and their claims to HIV healing are not reasonable (unlike the discussion I had with my friend)
Stu: I think I would take a similar line to your friend.
I also agree with the quote from the main story:
“We are not the Healer – God is the Healer. Never a sickness God cannot heal. Never a disease God cannot cure. Never a burden God cannot bear. Never a problem God cannot solve. To His power, nothing is impossible. We have not done anything to bring about healing, deliverance or prosperity. If somebody is healed, it is God who heals.”
Some in own church are not that into the ministry of healing and I feel here the balance is wrong because God does heal today. Similarly, those who think God will heal everyone are also wrong because clearly that does not happen or at least not in the way we would want to expect.
I can’t comment on the church in the article as I do not know the circumstances. I would say that while on one hand it is right to pray for people to be healed, it is also right to follow the guidance of clinicians whenever possible.
‘God does heal today ?’
WHy doesnt he ? Why doesnt he heal people?
What is your evidence either that there is a God or that he/she/it ‘heals’?
Licensed medication then, has a higher rate of success than asking this deity for help.Thanks for clearing that up.
“I would say that while on one hand it is right to pray for people to be healed, it is also right to follow the guidance of clinicians whenever possible.”
I am curious about the circumstances in which you think it would be advisable to reject the guidance of clinicians, in favour of prayer and a belief in “Gods healing” ?
Harry: I wish I knew the answer but there is a lot we won’t ever know while here on earth. I sometimes reflect on the ministry of Jesus. It seems that he had a 100% success rate when it came to healing but for every person he did heal, there are many more he didn’t.
Lord Botley: Personal testimony. I have heard and met people who claim or it is claimed that God has healed them. While it is always possible to come up with alternative explanations, if the God depicted in the Bible does exists, it is possible (some would say probable or even certain) that he would still carry on his healing work today.
Ged: I’m not sure what I have cleared up. The greatest healing is that of the soul and is part of what it is to be saved. However, there are many, indeed most, who either are not healed at all or through bio-medical intervention. That would seem quite evident from where I sit.
I would normally listen to and heed the advice of clinicians but I would pray at the same time, even to the effect that God would guide the clinicians. Personally speaking, I have found that to be the case.
Sometimes clinicians cannot heal e.g. advanced cases of cancer. Sometimes clinicians disagree among themselves. Sometimes clinicians get it wrong or just don’t know. Religion aside – in an area that interests me, mental illness, this is not an infrequent occurrence.
It is difficult to speak hypothetically, but right now I can’t think of instances where I would reject the advice of clinicians in favour of prayer. Both have limitations. Clinicians don’t have all the answers. Prayer is not necessary the path for a cure for every illness. Both doctors and prayer have their place and, as for me, I will always want to put my trust in the Great Physician.
“Sometimes clinicians cannot heal e.g. advanced cases of cancer. Sometimes clinicians disagree among themselves.”
JohnB . . . there are no cases of prayer or God healing people of the adavanced stages of incurable cancers.
“there are no cases of prayer or God healing people of the adavanced stages of incurable cancers”
You cannot say that because you have not examined all the cases and neither have any of us.
I believe there is strong, well documented, evidence of people being healed of supposedly incurable diseases, and this has been put down to the power of prayer or more accurately the power of God.
While I doubt if he is a member of the Plymouth Brethren, I believe amazing miracles have happened at the African crusades of the German evangelist, Reinhard Bonke. Why not do an Internet search and check out for yourself?
If Jesus raised dead people to life, and if he does endure with power his followers, as he said he woul, then I cannot rule out the possibility of God healing cancer patients.
But doesn’t work !
Anyway I’m off to have fun, in a way that your “holy” book describes as immoral. Please don’t pray for me. X
There are no randomised controlled trials (The gold standard of clinical science), which provide evidence for Prayer/God curing any illness, let alone advanced incurable cancers.
I seriously don’t think these kind of people care. Lets face it when someone dies they just come up with “It was ‘God’s will’. Trouble is they don’t see the irony of how evil They really are. Then it must be so handy to do things and always have ‘God’ as an excuse whichever way it goes to deflect any responsibilty. If only the rest of us had those kinds of excuses to rely on when we don’t want responsibilty for living our lifes.
Guess thats what p!sses off these people about us who just get on and deal with the real life.
I’d be curious to know exactly how these UK churches explain these deaths….. and how much they charge for their ‘prayers’.
certainly would like to hear explanation from them
Shut this cult down, immediately. I hope the families of this victims pursue it.
…these victims…I meant to have said.
Victims of their own superstition. Tragic cannot begin to describe it.
Absolutely disgusting. Reminds me of cases in the US where people died of cancer after being promised by snake-oil preachers that they could be healed by prayer and didn’t need chemo, etc. James Randi has done excellent work exposing this sort of thing – he has witnessed events where disabled people in frenzied ‘healing services’ were persuaded to throw away crutches only to be found sitting on the floor after the meeting, unable to move. I suppose no legal action is possible where no medical qualifications are claimed and the victim shares the mad belief. Tragic.
As large donations and tithes are sought, this is actually big business based on deception, preying on the most vulnerable and ill in society.
it comes down to the cash then…
I’m sure that’s true, but if the donations are not explicitly defined as ‘fees’ (which I’m sure they never are), it’s hard to see what legal redress there is.
This is disgusting and a disgrace from humanity. To give such hope to such desperation in the full knowledge these people would died… They should stand trial for manslaughter. Yet again proof how religion promotes the evils in society.
Enough already! Time for religion to stop targeting the vunerable and time they realised times change and their constant need to control us is over.
Generalizing much or something else going on? To say religion promotes the evils in society is total dumb. C’mon, you can do better than that Jock, just try once in your lifetime, it won’t hurt….
I agree with Beberts.
Just because you had a bad experience working for the church does not mean everyone is like that. You of all people should know not to tar everyone with the same brush and use sweeping generalisations. Most Christians are good people, possibly misguided at best, or fanatical at worst, but they mostly do what they think is the right thing, so stating they “promote evil” is quite simply wrong.
1) I have never said I have “had a bad experience working for the church” so you’ve made that up.
2) I’m sorry, your talking about “generalisations” yet I am commenting on this story on This particular religious sect.
Prehaps if you were much more intelligent you’d have realised this instead of jumping on the ‘Beberts’ bandwagon to try to score point.
Something in which you have Both failed.
You two have generalised. I however have not.
Honestly it shocks me that in this day and age people are this willfully stupid. These people must have been counselled in some way when they got there medication. Why would they choose to believe their pastor over their doctor?
Pentecostalism seems to involve group hypnosis.
Much like the so-called “speaking in tongues” where one rolls on the floor and speaks a lot of gibberish and people believe it is the divine something or other.
Isn’t it illegal to knowingly infect someone with HIV? These priests haven’t actually passed this horrible disease on to these people but by giving them false hope that they are ‘cured’ they have killed them. They should be charged but as they did this in god’s name they’ll get away with it! To be totally honest this story makes me sick to my stomach!
There is an offence of knowingly transmitting HIV – regarded as a kind of biological GBH …
Whilst I am not sure we could prove the church leaders committed such an act – they appear to have been unethical and arguably criminal in their actions…..
I hope Sky have referred their files to the police
This is so horrible and I feel so much for those poor people conned by these charlatans.
This whole thing is scary enough without the ambiguity of the reaction from the authorities. If someone had pretended to be a doctor and given wrong advice which had resulted in a death, there would be swift condemnation and legal action. When a religious leader does the same, the authorities stand about questioning what action to take.
Religions should stick to religious issues, and stick to keeping their religious discussions amongst the believers. I’m fed up with religious leaders sticking their oar in areas where they should have no authority.
Some of these extreme fundamentalist so-called ‘christian’ churches are virulently anti-science as well as being homophobic. This is a lethal combination for brain-washed believers with any serious medical ailment like Aids, cancer or whatever.
Personally I take a Darwinian view of such believers. If you are stupid enough to believe in such crap you probably deserve to die.
Steady on, Mal. If stupidity were a capital crime precious few of us would survive.
Yes, but it would be such a nicer place.
The Press Inquiry must be having an effect, the Daily Mail has actually printed an exposé of these churches linking them to homophobia. It could have been written by Jock himself.
Wow… Common sense in the Hate Mail? Whatever next?
It must be really hard for the Mail. These churches have a high percentage of BME people as members, so the (for want of a better term) “newspaper” has to choose between racism and homophobia :-)
I remember when I was an evangelical christian, the pastor used to say I didn’t need pain meds for my back as I didn’t have enough faith in God.
I’m s glad I got some intelligence and left those bunch of crazies behind!!!
Murder comes to mind!! These religious murderers intentionally misled/brainwashed these poor victims, when there is an almost 100% probability of death without drugs. See legal definition below. The CPS should take this on immediately…
In English law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a “high degree of probability” that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person.
But they didn’t do the act or omission, they abused their position of trust or authority to persuade the victim to stop taking their meds. So maybe it is assisting suicide?
Whilse I have some sympathy with your view …. it was the individual patient that did not take the medication, admittedly probably under the advice of the church leader etc -
However, to prove murder we need to prove an intention for the person to die from the person accused, and that could never be proven given the ministry was supposedly “healing” … unless you have evidence that proves otherwise …
Manslaughter I doubt could be proven … now safeguarding and deception offences are much more likely
This is, plainly, a disgusting deception. I saw the expose (acute), although it was more of a horror story to my mind, but I doubt if the police will find any wrong-doing – it’s the god get out clause. Our laws need to be tightened around such practices of these spurious churches. If they were medical practitioners doing this they would be struck off immediately, so why is it that our laws do not cover being duped by holy-holy godsuckers, when their practices are dangerous? You can’t use god as a defense against wielding a machine-gun to innocent people, so why not if they are peddling dangerous miracle cures. Shame on them – I hope they get their holy-holy a$$es kicked and shut down either by the charity commission or the old bill. But again I would call on a law that protects people from being duped by preying churches – we should be protected from them.
Surely there must be some “contributory negligence” angle to this? It’s easy to say that these people who followed the advice of their pastor were stupid, but that doesn’t take into account the position of trust. When someone is in a position of trust or power then their advice comes with additional responsibility.
Contributory negligence is something that is alleged against a victim, not the wrongdoer.
Yet again, the church pokes its nose in. I feel for the people that believed their lies.
If their god can solve any problem, then why hasn’t he fixed the recession with all that money the churches get???
Reckless endangerment: A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. “Reckless” conduct is conduct that exhibits a culpable disregard of foreseeable consequences to others from the act or omission involved. The accused need not intentionally cause a resulting harm or know that his conduct is substantially certain to cause that result
Sounds great …
I may be wrong, but I think that is US law not law in England & Wales …
Yes, sounds American to me.
Oh go play on a motorway.
Such an enthralling, constructive and relevant contribution to the debate …
How can we use American law to deal with a problem in England ….?
It would be such a nicer place if stupidity were removed from society (as you said earlier)
Religion is a cancer on this world and has long abused the HIV/AIDS epidemic for its own twisted and life-destroying agenda. Any other organization would be rightfully disbanded and all of it’s leaders arrested and tried for crimes to humanity. But because this is a religion they just get away with saying this stuff time and again.
Sadly when it comes to things like HIV, people become desperate and are willing to believe just about anything to try and save themselves.
But this is unbelievable and why personally i find myself unable to believe in a religion when so many use it to destory peoples lives. Something has to change in this world someday and this story is proof.
Proof the Christian religion does not work and is a scam and criminal to tell HIV/AIDS people not to take their HIV medicine that ends up killing them. The families of these people need to sue the Christian church for their deaths. This is also proof Christians kill gays. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8674401787208020885
Just as loony as the loons called Evangelicals.
Just as the Pope said whilst in Africa recently, religious fundamentalism must be combated in all its forms: from irrational superstitious heresies to the intolerant paranoid lunacy of some self-styled rationalist atheists.
Pity he can’t see the irony in him making such a statement.
These wicked people have caused our nation alot of trouble everywhere, you act swiftly, when you hear of any false prophet bad pastor who are trying to come intto your countries and towns and spread hate messages riling up peaceful families and causing bloodshed and children suicides, causing violence which is what racism and bigotry does, and this nation must continure to increase the reprimands on the evil racist bigots for their defamations , the stigmas for there hurtful lies does much damage, emotional an in many other ways, like a malicious sscorned boyfreind or girlfreind spreading false information to hurt the other ex partner out of malice that is what these hate religions do, they are hippocrites and pedehiles and have been caught from priest to bishops and rev, rapping childfen and pedephilia in their demonic churches, and ;yet spread lies, about the lgbt community which does not have that as a reputation, its a hetersexual high crime, sex trafficking children
God gave Dr’s and meds to help save peoples live and these churches still refuse gods help through their ignorance, yes I agree the pastors need to be charged with atthe very least reckless endagerment.
Cal me callous, but it’s hard to be really sorry when people whose lives are being saved by science, are stupid enough to bee taken for a ride by quacks and priests. How much information do we need before we stop being so gullibel?
I get where you are coming from …
Some people are vulnerable though, either because they are easily led or conned or because they are found at a particularly emotionally vulnerable moment …
The law should protect the vulnerable …
In terms of safeguarding the view is that every adult is vulnerable when they are receiving formal services eg from a GP, dentist, paramedic, social worker etc etc … I would contend that this should naturally extend to those providing or promoting “ministry” and that vulnerable adult safeguarding measures may well apply …
1: why are people so gullible, yes some need faith but this so called diety does not live amongst us healing us, but we in this country are educated in science and not christian “theory” (used loosily as it is not a scientific theory) of creationism like too man US states 2: the church is responsible for the death of a human being so should be charged with at involuntary manslaughter.
That might work in Scotland (not sure about Scots law) but in England & Wales whilst all manslaughter (by definition) is involuntary … demonstrating beyond reasonable doubt that their actions caused the deaths in court may be problematic … It should be given a go though … Coroners should be given Sky’s evidence and if there is no realistic possibility of prosecution being successful for manslaughter then alternative offences eg safeguarding offences or deception issues should be considered …
or plain old abuse and abuse of authority they are chargeble offences? tbh the law that stops me from practicing as a doctor or psychiatrist should also apply to religous orders and they definitly need to be made accountable for the deaths of these people. people who are coping with incurable diseases are vulnerable and that is what should be taken into consideration. religion has a lot to answer for and in the 21st century ugfffffff hope they die a long lingering death or are starved to death it just makes me sick. Abuse is abuse whether it is disguised as christianity or whatever.
Certainly abuse would apply …. I think vulnerable adult safeguarding issues could be considered …
Spiritual abuse is a recognised form of abuse
Secret footage here:
Let’s hope this investigation yields results. This should be treated as a sort of scam and the culprits be penalised as such.
Maybe what is needed is a secular version of the Christian Legal Centre, to pursue cases of damage caused by loony so-called churches?
The kinds of ‘churches’ are popping up all outer London, particularly in South London and they need to be investigated. They are appear to be nothing short of fraudulent ways for gaining money b deception and prey on the more vulnerable members of society. Most ‘pastors’ probably do not have any official form of ministerial training. As someone has stated they should be charged with manslaughter. which would be difficult to prove too.
Absolutely, in the US, Uganda and many other places it is a way to make a quick buck, often with faked healing sessions ( did you see Derren Brown’s “Messiah” exposé?). It’s a very lucrative business, especially the “prosperity gospel” line…the more you donate/ give to the church, the more money you will make…There may be some genuine ones, but my belief the vast majority are a scam.
These people! What the hell is wrong with Jam and coconut shys!
If you think this is bad, many African “doctors” claim that having sex with a virgin will cure one of AIDS. Children as young as 9 months are being raped.
This is what comes of gullible people following the spiritual advice of idiots.
preposterous.. an example of myth-making to suit one’s purpose.
What next in Zimbabwe? Institutionalized rape?
From their website:
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Reach out with the little you have and see whether it will not multiply!
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“If somebody is healed, it is God who heals.”
And when someone dies?
Then it’s not your fault? I bet it’s not god’s fault either. How nice for you.
Only one thing that their God uable to heal, to cure, to bear and to solve: the liars of the Churches
I suggest your crew should attend one of the Sunday services of the SCOAN in LAGOS, NIGERIA. If you are really looking for the truth…you will find it there.
Most of the readers here go by hearsay. They do not have first hand experience of the SCOAN. They believe your investigation(s). I humbly request that you do your job thoroughly.