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US professor: Pro-gay Israeli stance “conceals Palestinian human rights violations”

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  1. Stuart Neyton 24 Nov 2011, 12:00pm

    Completely right. It depresses me when people defend Israel because LGBT people have more rights there than elsewhere in the region (still pretty poor) and ignore the human rights violations, illegal occupations, military threats, blockade on Gaza etc and the fact that arabs and non-Jews living there are treated as second-class citizens. Their human rights violations are obscene. Boycott!

    1. DJ Sheepiesheep 24 Nov 2011, 3:17pm

      You ignorant f@&£. What do you think happens to LGBT people in Arab countries? There are human rights abuses across the whole of the Middle East. At least one country gets LBGT issues right.

      1. …While at the same time engaging in massive human rights abuses against the Palestinian population.

        Israel’s reasonable LGBT rights record (it is not an excellent record) is a completely unrelated subject to the horriific human rights abuses it perpetrates on the Palestinians,

        Stop trying to confuse unrelated issues.

        You are doing exactly what Ms Schulman is criticising – using 1 issue to stifle criticism of a completely unrelated issue.

        1. DJ Sheepiesheep 24 Nov 2011, 9:04pm

          I’ve never tried to link the two subjects.

          Leaving aside the LGBT issue completely, Israel’s critics are utterly one eyed when it comes to that nation’s treatment of the Palestinians. They seem to ignore the shelling of Isaeli towns that are within it’s pre 1967 boundaries, the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers within Israeli boundaries, the suicide bombings of restaurants, bars and buses. Neither side is perfect. Far from it. But if the Palestian atrocities stopped, then Israel would have no choice but to withdraw completely from the territories it occupied on 1967. If it failed to do so, then it would be utterly deserving of the world’s condemnation and it’s critics would have a valid point.

          But at present, the behaviour of both Israel’s govt and the Palestinian militants is awful. They should both be brought to book.

          However, ask yourself this, if Israel was at peace with with all of it neighbours, as an LGBT person, where would you feel safe?

          1. Fair enough.

            But please also bear in mind that for every Israeli kiiiled by Palestinians, there is on average 5 Palestinians killed by Israel.

            And Israel’s horrendous human rights record has nothing to do with its reasonable LGBT rights record.

    2. LGBT Israel 29 Nov 2011, 10:34pm

      One of the BIGGEST LOADS OF BS I’VE EVER HEARD. Seriously, some people like you need to stop being sad little moaners and get a life. You have ABSOLUTELY ZERO understanding of what it’s like to be Israeli, or to be in this country. It’s a bloody miracle! I walk around the streets here in Tel Aviv and feel more comfortable than I ever have in Manchester! I can have my gay marriage recognised, adopt kids, serve in the army, serve in government, in the courts, anywhere! Why do you think thousands of gay Arabs have to be smuggled into Israel?

      It’s not ok to be gay here because we’re trying to cover up these so called human rights abuses (of which none are specified by anyone…). It’s ok to be gay because Israel’s legal system is focused on justice for everyone. That’s why we’re the only country that could actually convict its own president of rape for example. Or the only country in the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST, most of Africa and Asia that gives FULL civil rights to gay people.

    3. LGBT Israel 29 Nov 2011, 10:45pm

      Now if we get on to some of the things you’re upset with Israel about:

      1. Blockade on Gaza: (a) The UN even admits its its justified (Yes, the UN, the Islamic dominated organisation that’s got country run by a terrorist organisation as the head of its security council (Lebanon, Hezbollah) and is totally obsessed with bashing Israel over countries with REAL human rights abuses (China anyone?). Why? Because Gaza is administrated by Hamas, a terror organisation responsible for the DELIBERATE deaths of thousands of completely innocent civilians.
      Yesterday the 629th missile this year was fired from Gaza into Israeli towns. They don’t fire them for military purposes. They aim to kill people like you or me, innocent civilians. That’s terrorism. Israel needs to blockade Gaza to stop even more dangerous weapons from being smuggled in, which is inevitable.

      (b) Israel pumps THOUSANDS of TONNES of aid into Gaza every week. Yesterday alone 7,595 tons of goods & gas entered. And that’s a fact

    4. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2011, 10:01am

      Me thinks you confuse the issues.

  2. Denis Nzioka 24 Nov 2011, 12:03pm

    I agree that Israel has been committing atrocities to Palestinians and at the same time furiously touting itself as pro-gay. Its time to call them bluff and put their double standards to the shame that they are.

    1. Rubbish. Palestinian muslims were massacring jews in Hebron in 1928. The Palestinians (and Egyptians) were allies of Hitler in WW2. They wanted the total annihilation of all jews in the world before, during and after WW2. There have been 3 wars fought against Israel since it’s nationhood (at the very same time nationhood was offered to the Palestinians, and they refused). Israel has won each of those wars, because they had no choice — they would have been exterminated if they had not. Arab muslims in Israel have more civil rights (and more average wealth) than any other muslims in the world. The “palestinian people” are tools of the arab muslim nations around Israel.

      Have a look at the disgusting millenium-long anti-semitism to be found in modern arabic TV shows: http://4freedoms.ning.com/video/memr…-islamic-clips

      1. World War 2 ended almost 70 years ago.

        Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian land since 1967.

        Stop bleating the same tired, old refrain.

        The Palestinians need and deserve their own state just as much as the Israelis do.

        1. Israel has not illegally occupied anything. Israel WON Gaza from Egypt in the 6 day war. Israel WON the west bank and east Jerusalem from Jordan. That is what happens when aggressors are defeated in war. I’ll bet you don’t object to the aggressive Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the way you object to the Israel having land it won from aggressors. I suppose I’m imagining all the massacres of jews in that area throughout the 20th century. You are prepared to believe any lie told about jews. With people like you, it is very easy to see how the National Socialist German Workers Party came to power. Even Abbas is now saying it was the muslims own hatred and stupidity that led them to reject the 1948 2 state solution – http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/world/middleeast/Arab-Rejection-of-1947-Partition-Plan-Was-Error-Mahmoud-Abbas-Says.html

          1. You’re making the classic attempt to label people who are against the illegal actions of Israel as anti-semites.
            “Israel has not illegally occupied anything. Israel WON Gaza from Egypt in the 6 day war.” – Tell that the UN. Even the pro-Israel US (who fund Israel’s army) recognises that land as being Palestinian. No country recognises that land as having been “won”.
            Isreal has a totally reprehensible human rights record. Screaming “anti-semite” at anyone who points it out does neither Israel nor jewish people in other countries who suffer from genuine anti-semitism any favours.

          2. Hahahaha – being labelled an anti-semite by extremist Israeli supporters is the laziest trick in the book to stifle all valid criticism.

            You really should try harder.

            Godwin’s Law at work.

  3. once agaim mr lucas knows best but then again he is an ‘expert’ in field of world politics lol, i think the profesor is right here

    1. He makes dirty movies. That is his big field of expertise.

      His blatant racism (Lucas does not hate the muslim religion – he freely admits to hating muslim PEOPLE) renders everything he says suspect.

      1. Rachel Haytread 24 Nov 2011, 5:23pm

        And what exactly is wrong with that?

        1. what wrong with his racism ??? a lot mate

          1. Racism is one of the vilest practices in the world and must be eradicated. I rather like gay porn though.

      2. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2011, 10:03am

        Yet again you bring in irrelevent subject to show your hate of a person.

    2. LGBT Israel 29 Nov 2011, 10:54pm

      Don’t be such a snob. Who the hell is this academic anyway and who made her the Queen of all Experts on Israel!

      Plus, she’s wrong. “Pinkwashing” is a slur that was coined by some of the most virulently anti-Israel, anti-Western, and, yes, anti-Semitic groups around. And no those 3 ‘antis’ are not the same thing.

      It was created as another weapon that could be used against Israel on an issue where it so clearly and so obviously is way ahead of its neighbours. Israel’s been allowing gay people to serve openly in the army since the 80s. It’s quietly gone about its business, especially through its courts, which are fiercely independent of the government, over 30 years. And during that time, nobody was even talking about Israel’s record on gay rights! It wasn’t an issue. This has been brought up by those who will try to find anything to spread hatred of the ONE country in the Middle East that gives equal basic civil rights to everyone.

      Lucas may have made porn, but so what! He’s right!

    3. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2011, 10:02am

      You speak fluent crazy I see.

  4. Does one necessarily have to like everything a country does in order to praise it for one thing it does right?

    That seems a very simplistic assumption to me. Can’t we praise Israel for its (relatively) enlightened LGBT politics while at the same time sharply condemning it for its human rights abuses? Are we really saying that the general public is too thick to separate out the issues? Because I don’t think it is…

    1. I agree wholeheartedly. When it comes to LGBT issues, I believe strongly that we should praise Israel and criticise those states (Islamic or not) which are trans- and homophobic just as we should condemn Israel for their subjugation of Palestinians, support the Palistinian cause for human rights and condemn states who subjugate their own people.

      Real world politics is never simple enough to treat on single issues and trying to distil complex situations down to easy to understand single issues results in polarisation and ignorance of the real issues. That’s dangerous enough in relatively tame European politics and potentially catastrophic in tinderbox Middle Eastern politics.

      1. Agreed – Israel should be praised mildly for its treatment of LGBT people (although Israel has a very long journey to travel in terms of acceptance of its LGBT population).

        The point of this article however is to point out that Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians is ignored simply because of its mediocre LGBT rights record.

        Being accepting of LGBT people does not excuse massive, widespread, huiman rights abuses against other people.

        I notice that particularly on US based websites that ANY reference to Israel’s human rights violations are dismissed with either a) Palestinians are ALL terrorists and fherefore they do not deserve any human rights or b) But Israel is the most accepting place for LGBT people in the region so they are allowed to steal land and oppress other people.

        Michael Lucas (who has written on several occasions for Pink News) is openly racist and extremist. He goes far further than criticising the muslim religion. He openly hates all muslim people,

        1. I think it could be because of the assumption the Muslims are intolerant of LGBT people? Are you an Islamic convert?

          1. No I am complete atheist. I think christianity; islam; judaism; hinduism; scientology are parasitical cults with nothing of value to offer society.

            Michael Lucas states clearly that he hates all muslim people – not the muslim religion but muslim people.

            Imagine if someone said the same thing about jewish people?

            Or is hatred of muslim people acceptable as all 1,100,000,000 of them are terrorist who do not deserve any human rights?

            And how is Israel’s appalling human rights violations against the Palestinian people justified by its gay friendliness?

    2. It’s not about denying progress on LGBT issues in certain parts of Israel.

      It’s about calling out Israel’s PR ambassadors, many of whom spend more time talking about LGBT rights when they are in America than they do when they are in Israel.

      Further it’s about supporting LGBT Palestinians, who have repeatedly stated that pinkwashing undermines their struggle for queer rights in Palestine.

      1. Perplexed Gay 29 Nov 2011, 11:35pm

        What RUBBISH!! Israel having great records on supporting its LGBT population and then promoting it and inviting gay (/gay friendly) tourists to visit is undermining the struggle for queer rights in Palestine?! Well I’m sorry but:

        (a) It’s normal for a country to promote its good things, it boosts tourism income. Any country would do this.

        (b) What planet are you living on? Do you seriously think that queers living in any Muslim, Islamist country are going to suddenly get civil rights (ie. not be publicly humiliated, raped, tortured, murdered…) because you and your bunch of brainless idealists have CRITICISED Israel for having a good gay rights record? 1. In no country in the Middle East, most of Africa, most of Asia, the Gulf etc etc is homosexuality ok. Only in Israel. Think about that for a second when you start fighting for queer rights in Palestine by demonising Israel as a human rights abuser…

    3. Daniel In Israel 29 Nov 2011, 11:05pm

      That’s fine, but really, it’s like you make out there’s a consensus that Israel commits human rights “ABUSES”. I have a real problem with this terminology.
      Discriminatory policies like providing less funding to Arab municipalities for building are wrong. But they’re NOT human rights ABUSES.
      Building a security fence across the country is sad. But doing it to stop Islamic nutcases from driving into restaurants and clubs in Israel and blowing themselves up, is not a human rights abuse.

      People in the West Bank really don’t have it so bad. It’s got a fast growing economy, one of the fastest rising GDPs in the wider region. Surely people can understand that Israel CANNOT withdraw its military from the areas of the West Bank it occupies (it only maintains a presence in some areas remember!), until it gets SOME indication from the Palestinian Authorities that they will recognise Israel and will actually stop bringing up their children mal-educated and taught that Jews have horns etc.

  5. I get annoyed when people blow off criticism of Israel as “anti-Semitic”. Lucas needs to come up with a better argument.

    1. That’s routine behaviour by certain defenders of Israel though.

      ANY criticism of israeli policy is viewed as an an anti-semitic attack.

      It’s truly pathetic as it trivilalises the genuine, horrific anti-semitism of the past.

      1. It’s easy to cry “anti-semitism” when Israel is criticized but what is it if not anti-semitism for the modern age when the United Nations Human Rights Council and before that its predecessor, the United Nations Human Right Commission, spends more time and energy in condemnation of Israel and has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all 200 other nations of the world combined? It’s hard not to call that anti-semitism or to describe it as Judeophobia of some kind.

        1. Perhaps if Israel gave back the land it has illegally occupied for 40+ years then the UN might give it an easier ride.
          - Just sayin’

        2. Enough with this whining self pity Jonathan.

          Until Israel sorts out its conflict with Palestine and until there is a Palestinian state with mutually agreed borders, Israel is part of the problem, not the solution.

    2. I suppose members of the National Socialist German Workers Party also hated being called anti-semites.

      1. Joe is also guilty of employing the tactics criticised by Ms Schulman.

        Instead of labelling legitimate criticism of Israeli as ‘anti-semitic’ however, he instead tries to equate legitimate criticism of Israel as supporting the National Socialist German Workers Party.

        A new take on the tired old attempt to stifle legitimate criticism..

        1. Holding Israel up to a set of “human rights” standards that the entire arab world rejects, is simply jew-hatred. The entire islamic world has REJECTED universal human rights (see the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights under Islam). They subordinate human rights to sharia law, and sharia law enshrines discrimination against non-muslims. None of this criticism of Israel is justified. Where do you think the millenium of jew-hatred in european/islamic culture has gone? It has re-emerged in the outrageously unjust treatment that is accorded to Israel. The UNHRC is full of islamic countries who do not even recognise universal human rights. The UN is a total joke.

          1. You’re hilarious.

            If Israel wants to be regarded as a democracy then you should be comparing their appalling human rights record to the human rights record of another democracy. I choose Finland.

            This another tactic used by extremist Israeli defenders like Joe.

            INstead of comparing Israel to Finland, Joe decides that Israel’s human rights record should be compared to Egypt’s – which until February was a miltary dictatorship.

            He is comparing apples and pears, and thowing in pathetic claims of anti-semitism at the same time, to make himself look even more stupid.

          2. Perplexed Gay 29 Nov 2011, 11:50pm

            dAVID, do you think you’re funny? You just called one of the only people on here talking any sense about Israel and the rest of the world an extremist… He’s absolutely right… the UN is a complete joke. It totally singles out Israel for so called abuses of human rights while ignoring the real human rights abusers of the world.

            The only extremist here is you “David”.

  6. What a piece of one-sided drivel that was. Considering Sarah Schulman has built her career in a country that built itself on the backs of slaves and land stolen from Native Americans, it’s laughable to hear her bleat about Israel and human rights. Since she lives and works in New York City, I think she needs to look up the history of the Lenape tribe for a more personal reflection on the place she inhabits. According to her logic, New York could be accused of pinkwashing because it hasn’t ever fully recognized what was done to the former inhabitants of her city.

    And does she ever give pause to Israeli social and cultural foundations which allow an ad campaign of that nature to be funded? Of course not. Does she mention that one of the Palestinian gay rights groups has to operate out of Israel and its members remain anonymous out of fear? Of course not.

    Simplistic thoughts for simplistic minds.

    1. jamestoronto 24 Nov 2011, 2:11pm

      The history of the USA is cloaked in this mythical doctrine called “Manifest Destiny” by which they believe God gave them the right to seize the entire North American continent. Any country whose entire history is based on this myth should not have any of its citizens giving history lessons to others. If she wants credibility she should be advocating for the return of Texas and California to Mexico, the Ohio Valley to Canada for use by the First Nations., the entire Prairie to the Plains Indians, Florida to the First Nations it forced out to Oklahoma. Look at your own roots first.

      1. Jamestoronto engages in an exact replica of Ms Schulman’s criticism of Israel.

        Certain pro-Israeli groups say that because Israel is gay friendly we should ignore valid criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

        Jamestoronto says that because 300 years ago the US founding fathers believed ‘god’ gave them the right to seize the entire North American continent,.then any valid criticism about human rights violations anywhere in the world, coming from an American in invalid.

        it is intellectually lazy, invalid and quite pathetic to use a completely unrelated situation to stifle a reasonable debate..

      2. “The history of the USA is cloaked in this mythical doctrine called “Manifest Destiny” by which they believe God gave them the right to seize the entire North American continent.”

        Wasn’t the state of Israel founded on the premise that God gave the “promised land” to the Jews?

        Isn’t this also a “myth”? It probably seems that way to the Palestinians

        1. No, that’s not how Israel was formed. Israel was formed by european zionist jews in the 19th century encouraging diaspora jews to go to live in Palestine. Those who went there in the 19th and 20th century BOUGHT the land from those who wished to sell it. The UN did not impose this on anything. But by the 1920s Hitler’s allies the muslims were massacring jews and aligning with Hitler to stop jews migrating there. It would be as if nowadays we went to Knightsbridge and massacred arabs buying houses there. In 1947 a two-state solution to the conflict was proposed by the UN (backed by mostly anti-colonial third world countries). The jews in Palestine accepted their state; the muslims rejected theirs. The myth is that Israel is not a gay-friendly place. Tel Aviv outshines London, NY, and SF as a gay-friendly city. And on the Israeli gay pride there are stupid queers with anti-israel flags and banners, and nobody stops them. Unlike the dumb queers who go to support Gaza…

          1. Your lies and your extremist rantings do not alter the reality of Israeli’s despicable human rights record,

            Nor does it alter the fact that the Palestinians have the right to their own independent state on land illegally occupied by Israel in 1967.

            While the illegal occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalam and the blockade of Gaza continues, then Israeil will never achieve nor deserve peace and security.

            I know that seeing as you don’t view muslims as human beings who deserve human rights, but thankfully most people do.

    2. Oh right what a clever argument so because America has a bloody past American’s cannot condemn Israel for human rights violations?
      I guess that means Britain can’t, Germany can’t, France can’t, actually most of Europe. No one in south east Asia can condemn Israel nor Africa. Definitely no one in the middle east will qualify. We must also rule out Australia and probably all of south America.
      So I guess what we should do is shut up and sit on our hands, for fear of being labelled hypocritical anti-Semites, whilst Israel continues to evict Palestinians and maim Palestinian children with rubber bullets etc etc.

      1. It’s standard tactic of certain pro-Israeli groups – use a completely unrelated issue to stifle all reasonable debate and criticism.

        And if that doesn’t work call the critic an anti-semite.

    3. Rob engages in an exact replica of Ms Schulman’s criticism of Israel.

      Certain pro-Israeli groups say that because Israel is gay friendly we should ignore valid criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

      Rob says that because the US once had slavery then any valid criticism about human rights violations anywhere in the world, coming from an American in invalid.

      it is intellectually lazy, invalid and quite pathetic to use a completely unrelated situation to stifle a reasonable debate..

    4. “a country that built itself on the backs of slaves and land stolen from Native Americans, it’s laughable to hear her bleat about Israel and human rights.”

      More rubbish. The trans-atlantic slave trade lasted no more then 400 years. The islamic empire and slave trade has lasted 1400 years. How did muslims get to be in Palestine? Through the conquest of a slave-taking islamic army. It was Britain and the US who destroyed the slaving city of Algiers in 1815, in order to stop the several hundred year old islamic slave trade in WHITE EUROPEANS. Britain then spent almost 200 years wiping out the islamic slave trade altogether. The UN 1951 expert panel on slavery said that in 1950 1 in 20 people in Arabia were still slaves. And Baroness Cox was going to the Sudan in the last decade to buy black people who had been enslaved by muslims and free them.

      If it had not been for the US and Britain destroying the slave trade in the last 200 years, the islamic slave trade would continue.

      1. Paranoid much.

        And yet you still fail to offer any justification for Israel’s appalling record in terms of human rights violations against the Palestinians.

        I presume you agree that Palestinians actually deserve human rights (probably not judging by the tone and the content of your comme

  7. It doesnt seem as if contributors here are likely to be “pinkwashed”, does it? And nor should anyone with half a brain be.

    I agree with those who say that Israel’s record on some human rights is not great (though those who respond by knee-jerk to these references might do well to pause a moment and think just how difficult it is to manage a country surrounded by and containing people whose life-energy is directed at damage, terrorism and in some cases the destruction of the Israeli nation – it is massively complex).

    But it really is unfair to say that the bad obliterates the good – and there is a great deal of good there. Gay (etc) rights are indeed human rights. In the face of right wing and religeous extremists, Israel has still managed to create the only welcoming environment in the middle east (TLV, not Jerusalem which still lags behind). Credit where due, please.

    And, really – to say that the gay friendly environment is a construct to throw sand in our eyes (pun only intended when realised) is patronising and insulting – I am not even sure how it would be intended to work. Some self promotion going on here by Ms Schulman, which does not really bear analysis.

    1. Israel is extremely wealthy and has nuclear weapons and receives $3,000,000,000 in MILITARY aid alone from the US each yea.

      It is not under any risk from its neighbours, but nice try at trying to divert attention from the topic at hand.

      Israel does indeed deserve credit for its reasonable treatment of its LGBT population.

      But on the same hand it deserves complete condemnation for its utter disregard for the human rights of the Palestinian people.

      They are 2 completely unrelated issues.

      1. Daniel In Israel 29 Nov 2011, 11:13pm

        Oh why don’t you just shut up? Israel is so obviously under threat every single day from every one of its neighbours except (currently at least) Egypt and Jordan. Only yesterday the 629th rocket of the year was fired into Israel from Gaza, with the sole aim of killing its innocent civilians. Israel’s been under attack since its birth. It was invaded by 5 COUNTRIES on 3 occasions, in 1948, 1967, and 1973. And it’s had to contend with suicide bombers, kidnappers, missiles and actual physical murderers coming into the country and killing whole families (see the Fogel family tragedy from last year) in recent times.

        Also, if Palestinian issues and gay rights issues are unrelated, then why do people like Schulman and now you bring them up TOGETHER?? I’m afraid you don’t actually show evidence that you know ANYTHING concrete about this country. Maybe you visit Israel, see what it’s really like to live hear. Speak to people from all spectrums in society. Understand it. No? Didn’t think so..

  8. MyLyricalDreams 24 Nov 2011, 2:14pm

    Israel needs to stop using the ‘anti-semitic’ card. It’s beyond ridiculous. Just because one is against what atrocities they continue to do, and to innocent Palestinians, that does NOT make the said individual anti Jewish!

    I completely respect those Jewish people who are brave enough to stand up and say that they don’t agree with the actions of Israel, and that said, I also respect those Jewish people who practice their faith with no harm onto others! That is TRUE religion. Not those people who use it as a smoke screen to commit heinous acts to fellow human beings.

    In the same way skin colour is only on the surface, different religions does not change the fact that we are all equal! Whether you believe that is because of a superior being or evolution is redundant!

    Israel should treat the Palestinians (and non-Jewish people) with the same respect as they supposedly show their LGBT community. That would be a start!

    1. Their “atrocities” are in response to people who want to annihilate jews. If you support such annihiliation, then you are indeed anti-semitic. Live with it, or go and learn about the state of jews (and other dhimmis) in islamic society for the past 1400 years. The Hamas Charter states explicitly that one of their guiding principles is the destruction of Israel.

      1. Yawn.

        Joe – please confirm that you believe that the Palestinian people need and deserve their own state in the land occuped by Israel in 1967 – Gaza; West Bank; East Jerusalem?

        Just checking, as this is almost universally recognised as the only way there will ever be peace between the 2 peoples.

        1. Notice how Joe refuses to acknowledge the Palestinians as people deserving of the same rights as Israelis.

          This is another tactic used by certain (extremist) Israel supporters.

          If you dismiss ALL 4,000,000 Palestinians as terrorists then you don’t need to engage in awkward discussions about human rights, end of illegal settlements; occupation, apartheid etc.

      2. MyLyricalDreams 25 Nov 2011, 12:17am

        Little boy, please run along and learn YOUR facts.

        It’s no accident that Israel has more UN resolutions against them than even 10 or 20 countries against them. That they continue to believe that they are above international law.

        And if you are calling me anti-zionist, then you are absolutely right

        If you are saying that I’m against Israel’s inhumane and unlawful treatment of the people of Gaza, then you are absolutely right.

        Just look at the Wiki Leaks expose on Israel that it was THEY who made it impossible to make peace.

  9. Why is this issue so polarized, either Palestine are innocent victims fighting for freedom or Israel are innocent victims simply protecting themselves (even if you believe this it’s hard to call their ‘responses’ proportionate)?

    They’re both as bad as each other and it’s the people who suffer because of it. The blockade needs to end, the pre-1967 borders need to be re-established, Hamas need to be removed, Israel needs a new government.

    That said go and try and have sex with your boyfriend in Gaza and see what happens.

    Calling any criticism “anti-semetic” is just childish and is really little more than hyperbole. Even if it is anti-semetic, in the modern day world I fail to see how anti-semetism carries any more weight whatsoever than Islamaphobia?

    1. Well, how foolish are you then? There is zero tolerance of homosexuality amongst British muslims (Gallup survey 2009). But I’ve never been anywhere in the world where I’ve seen people being as openly gay and as comfortable doing it as in Tel Aviv. And you have the stupidity to say anti-semitism = islamophobia. Islam is built on fear – the Koran has many injunctions to kill non-muslims. And muslims have put that into practice for over a millenium. Give me jews any day (and I’m not jewish).

      1. MyLyricalDreams 25 Nov 2011, 10:38am

        No, just pro-Israeli.

      2. And for the 5th time Joe – Israel’s appalling record of human rights violations against the Palestinians is not justified because of its gay rights records.

        BUt well done you – engaging in the EXACT same behaviour that Sarah Shulman’s article was criticising.

      3. There are orthodox jews illegally occupying Palestinian land who have no problems at all about killing non-jews. It’s there duty to reclaim biblical lands as part of their birthright. It says so in the holy scriptures and they will destroy any other peoples (meaning Palestinians/Arabs) who attempt to stay there. Putting aside the murderous activities of Jewish fanatics, who thankfully are a minority (as are muslim fanatics), the Israeli Defence Force are killing Palestinians at a ratio of 5 to each Israeli. When you add to that the illegal occupation, possession or destruction of Palestinin land, homes and livelihoods for ‘defensive’ reasons; the detention without trial of thousands of Palestinians in Israeli
        jails; the constant harassment and physical abuse meted out as a daily humiliation and so on…there is no doubt about who are the real oppressors.

  10. I predict there will be many comments left on this comments section from people who have never commented on Pink News before.

    1. GingerlyColors 25 Nov 2011, 6:58am

      You are right about Israel, they should not use their good LGBT rights record as a figleaf to cover their human rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is not a unique case. Mentioned above have been the colonisation of America and Australia at the cost of the aboriginal peoples and the Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus. You may count the plantation of the Protestants in north-eastern Ireland in the 17th century as another example. History sadly is littered with cases of invasions displacing ethnic groups.
      As for which planet I am from I was resident on Earth when thr Iranian Revolution took place in 1979. The Shah who ran the country as a dictator was deposed and in his place Iran ended up with the Ayatollah. Result: 4000 people hanged for being gay. Unfortunately history has a knack of repeating itself and I can see hardline Islamists taking a sizable share of the power cake. Already Tunisia and Libya are introducing Sharia Law while protesters are out in Tahrir Square again, protesting against what they ended up with after deposing of Mubarak. Whatever happens in those countries don’t bank on them becoming LGBT travel destinations soon.

      1. Of course not.

        But let’s not pretend that Egypt under Mubarak was good for LGBT people.

        Palestinian human rights and their right to their own state on mutually agreed borders is not dependent on how they will behave in the future,. Their right to a state is an inalienable as Israel’s right to a state.

        And Israel’s disgraceful human rights record needs to be judged and condemned in its own right.

  11. The Palestinians and other Arabs just need to have equal LGBT and woman rights implemented in their territories, and no one can pinkwash anything anymore.

    1. Indeed.

      But the Palestinian treatment of sexual minorities in no way justifies Israel’s appalling human rights record.

      2 wrongs do not make a right.

      1. Yes, I agree. But as much as Israel does not deserve to be given any white checks because of the past (and often current) opression of Jews in various countries, neither do the Palestinians deserve to get the lamb-image, as they are also party in the conflict.

        They are the underdog however, so they get more abuse then the other way around.

  12. Well, if the Palestinians want to avoid this pinkwashing, the solution is simple. Bring LGBT rights up to par with Israel and the problem is solved. As much as the Israelis are pinkwashing, the Palestinians and other Muslim countries are often “occupation-washing” messed-up societies as well.

    1. The reason Palestine is messed-up is because of the Occupation.
      You accept that I hope.
      Or have you dehumanised all Palestinian as terrorists.
      A country which has been illegally occupied and brutalised since 1967 cannot be held to the same standard as their heavily armed, murderous oppressor.

      1. I am pretty sure that Palestine is more messed up because of the current occupation (West Bank) and blockade (Gaza).

        However, I hope you also accept that it is 99% sure that if Israel had never existed, Palestine would have been among the world’s top homophobic societies, just like most Muslim-majority countries around the world…

    2. Good point Robert. Because as long as Palestine lags behind on LGBT rights in comparison to (parts of) Israel, then Israel has every justification blockade Gaza, impose military checkpoints, colonize land for the benefit of Jewish religious extremists and punish Palestinian social justice activists with arbitrary prison sentences and torture.

      Whenever a Palestinian complains “why am I forced to pass through military checkpoints to go to my own school or visit my family?” the response should be “because Palestinian society doesn’t have LGBT rights yet.” If the Palestinian in question happens to be LGBT themselves, that is totally irrelevant… she should be oppressed twice for having the audacity to be both Palestinian and LGBT.

      1. You are missing my poiny. The difference in LGBT rights does not justify anything. HOWEVER, I was commenting on the specific issue of pinkwashing (isn’t that the article topic?) and was giving Palestinians an easy solution to prevent Israel having the upper hand in this human rights field.

        As for the entire issue impacting my views on the conflict? Well, it does. I will not fly the flag for someone who would put me down, regardless of how just their cause is in an overall context.

        1. Ok, I see better where you are coming from now. But here I would emphasize that all three Palestinian queer organizations have commented that pinkwashing seriously undermines their struggle for LGBT rights in Palestinian society. It creates a false sense that LGBT rights are a Western value not relevant to Palestinian society. And the fact that Israel recruits gay Palestinians (i.e. blackmails them by saying “spy on your Palestinian neighbors or we will tell them you are gay”) is even more problematic for that struggle… especially given that Israel claims that it wants to save Palestinian queers when talking about the issue in the U.S. and Europe.

          So even if you want to narrowly focus on LGBT rights and ignore the occupation, pinkwashing is bad for all of us in the LGBT community. That is what members of the Palestinian LGBT community have been saying themselves. Don’t they understand the struggle for queer rights in Palestine better than we do?

          1. Perplexed Gay 29 Nov 2011, 11:42pm

            Listen, you’re talking rubbish! LGBT Rights is NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH OCCUPATIONS OR ANY OTHER ACCUSATIONS YOU MAKE.

            Where do your wonderful Palestinian organisations meet by the way? Take a flying guess. It’s not Ramallah…

            They meet in Israel. And israel doesn’t recruit gay Palestinians as spies. This is a completely offensive statement. It’s 100% acceptable that gay Palestinians would want to escape the persecution and abuse they SUFFER from THEIR OWN PEOPLE because of their sexual orientation.

            In fact why don’t you ask my gay Palestinian boyfriend what he thinks about your OUTRAGEOUS statement…

  13. Sorry for the duble-post.

  14. Oh god this is so boring.

  15. I am staunch supporter of Israel and I condemn utterly the thousands of human rights violations by the Arabs who call themselves by the invented term ‘Palestinian’ perpetrate on an almost daily basis.

    Israel is a democracy – the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are not democracies and those in control have an abysmal record on human rights and routinely slaughter their own people, as well as Israelis and others, on the slimmest of pretexts.

    With regards to the general Arab approach to the Jews one only has to read the Koran and study the Hadith and any of the four schools of so-called Islamic jurisprudence in order to discover that that approach is founded in one thing only and that that is the slaughter of all Jews everywhere and that that is a commandment of the Mohammedan belief system called Islam.

    Now, you may not believe me so how about getting it straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak – go to
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
    (there are subtitles to help the infidel understand) and listen to one of Islam’s most important clerics explain why all Jews must be killed. Remember, stuff like that, and much, much worse, goes out on TV every day all over the Arab world.

    One also has to bear in mind that terrorists have committed over 18,000 attacks in the name of Islam since 9/11 to realise just what israel and the rst of the free world actually faces.

    A little further knowledge can also be gleaned from
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
    which, of course, is the one thing that it isn’t!

    1. “if anyone should harm a Christian or a Jew, he will have me as his accuser on the day of judgement.” – Muhammad in the Hadith

      1. A hadith that the best authorities say is abrogated by Mohammed’s teachings in his later verses in the Koran itself, and it is not included in all the collections of hadith (sayings of Mohammed). It is regarded as a forgery by all modern Muslim scholars and by not a few of those of us in the west who study Islam for it doeasn’t appear to have come into being until about a thousand years after Mohammed died.

        The doctrine of abrogation – that Mohammed’s later teachings invalidate his earlier ones because he started simple and got progressively more complicated as G-d willed so that his audience could follow him and understand – is of tremendous use to Muslim scholars and clerics, like the prominent one I linked to, for it allows them to play up the verses of violence and massively downplay the earlier verses in the Koran when Mohammed was weak and not followed by many and so preached in much milder fashion than he did when he got more followers and could bully people (and murder them when they opposed him or took the mickey out of him, too).

        1. Are you trying to tell me there are no fire and brimstone, hell fire, war and slaughter, persecutory texts in the Christian and Jewish holy scriptures? Whatever mullahs, rabbis or priests say is only their interpretation and they can all be told to sod off. Anyway this is off topic. The point is – the present-day Israeli state oppressed Palestinians and is the greatest obstacle to peace.

          1. Yes, but out of 2 billion Christians and Jews, maybe 10% take these parts seriously. That is why ALL Christian countries are secular while around 50% of Muslim countires have various forms of theocracy at the heart of their governing systems.

          2. IT/ You watched the video? You went to the site I linked to?

            No. I didn’t think so. But you still had the temerity, just like most of the other pro-Arab people here, to write a load of piffle and blame the Israeli democratic secular state for the ills of the religious dictatorships run by the Arabs who, almost to a man, believe that their so-called scriptures are the literal word of G-d.

            Just look at what is happening to non-believers in Islam all over the Islamic world – in Pakistan they are kidnapped and murdered, in Egypt they have trucks run over them by the army, in Malaya they have ‘lawfare’ practiced against them and their children kidnapped, in Indonesia they are simply murdered by the score and in the West Bank those Arabs who call themselves ‘Palestinian’ and who already have a state – it’s called Jordan, read some history – see fit to murder babies in their beds, stone women to death, and hound Arab Christians out of the so-called lands of Islam, including Bethlehem where, until very recently, they were the majority population.

            Terrified of the violence perpetrated against them by Muslims thousands of people who are not believers in that awful faith flee the Middle East every day and a not inconsiderable number of them come from the West Bank and Gaza Strip where minorities are routinely blamed for anything and everything that might go wrong and murdered.

            In defending the Arabs you are defending the indefensible, promoting religious intolerance, and denying the validity of human rights worldwide.

  16. We hear so much about “Israel’s human rights abuses” from the muslim-dominated UNHRC. (The same muslims who in the Cairo Declaration rejected universal human rights in place of sharia law). Here’s an interview with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who instigated against the jews of Hebron (jews had been there continuously for thousands of years – Hebron is now another muslim-colonised area).

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/11/25/%E2%80%9Cthey-stole-our-land%E2%80%9D-vs-the-grand-mufti-of-jerusalem/2/

    The Mufti admits that the jews who came to Palestine BOUGHT the land from willing sellers, and they IMPROVED the lives of the muslim arabs living there. Yet he still went on to form an alliance with Hitler and Eichmann to have all the jews of the world exterminated. When you support these jew-hating muslims, you are supporting Hitler. Period.

    Even last week in Cairo the assembled ranks of muslim fanatics were chanting “death to jews”. The jew-hatred long precedes 1947.

  17. Daniel In Israel 29 Nov 2011, 10:19pm

    One of the BIGGEST LOADS OF BS I’VE EVER HEARD. Seriously, some people like that david bloke need to stop being sad little c**ts and get a life. You have ABSOLUTELY ZERO understanding of what it’s like to be Israeli, or to be in this country. It’s a bloody miracle! I walk around the streets here in Tel Aviv and feel more comfortable than I ever have in Manchester! I can have my gay marriage recognised, adopt kids, serve in the army, serve in government, in the courts, anywhere! Why do you think thousands of gay Arabs have to be smuggled into Israel?

    It’s not ok to be gay here because we’re trying to cover up these so called human rights abuses (of which none are specified by anyone…). It’s ok to be gay because Israel’s legal system is focused on justice for everyone. That’s why we’re the only country that could actually convict its own president of rape for example. Or the only country in the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST, most of Africa and Asia that gives FULL civil rights to gay people.

    I

  18. Daniel In Israel 29 Nov 2011, 10:27pm

    Also, this isn’t anything new. Academics love to demonize Israel, and for once they’ve got a real problem, because it’s so bloody obvious that there’s only 1 country in the Middle East where you can live freely, whether you’re Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Gay, Straight, Bi, Trans, or whatever else you identify as. Yep, Israel.

    I actually met up recently with an immam from a reform Muslim sect called the Ahmadi Muslims in Haifa, one of the most multicultural cities you’ll find anywhere. He told me that life is good in Israel for him and his community. They have problems, and suffer discrimination in things like housing. But they get free access to the one of the best healthcare systems in the world; they get free education; they can observe their religion freely. The Ahmadi Muslims have suffered persecution throughout the Muslim world. They’re humiliated, abused, murdered in those countries, because of their reform beliefs. Not in Israel.

  19. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2011, 10:00am

    ‘Pinkwashing’ eh? And there was me worrying about leaving a red sock in with the whitewashing.

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