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Aids-related deaths at their lowest level since 2005 peak

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  1. …but, 30 years into the HIV/Aids epidemic and millions of pounds squandered on inept HIV campaigns, recorded HIV infections are at their highest ever level among gay men in the UK. Nothing exactly to cheer about.

    1. @Samuel
      What will you be don g to promote HIV awareness in the run up to World Aids Day I wonder – a big fat nothing no doubt, as is the case with people of your ilk! Gay men are not the only individuals to get HIV but you are far too selfish to see this in your blinkered world.

      1. What, exactly, is selfish about my above statement of fact, “W6″? Have we really reached a point in our evolution where it is heresy to state the truth about HIV’s relentless, unimpeded spread in our world? This is a forum for gay people for heaven’s sake! It is appropriate to state the facts pertaining to our community here. By constantly trying to belittle and deflect from this critical issue with the pathetic excuse that “gay men are not the only individuals to get HIV”, you reveal yourself to be callous verging on the sociopathic.

        If you really can’t care less for the health well being of your gay brothers, W6, what on earth are you doing posting your verbiage here? Oh, sorry, of course, you are employed as a disinformation shill to deflect all criticism of the HIV sector and their appalling track record where HIV prevention is concerned, and hide behind an absurd moniker because you do not have the guts nor the decency to reveal the bullying person behind the insults.

        Coward!

        1. Jock S. Trap 22 Nov 2011, 1:58pm

          “What, exactly, is selfish about my above statement of fact”
          -
          Well pretty much all of it.
          -
          Ignorant Idiot!

          1. Well said jock, this guy Samuel hijacks every HIV related article and to be honest he is getting as bad as Keith, as he lives in the past and just wants to deny the true facts about HIV, sexual behaviour and that gay men should be educated and empowered rather than scared by HIV.

            He is constantly projecting his own fear and irrational thoughts as solid facts when they clearly are not.

            He was named the village idiot by another person in a different thread for a reason!

          2. The comments of Samuel B are entirely valid. I imagine it is difficult for some commentators to remain unbiased, given their condition. But please don’t attempt to silence this forum into quiet agreement.

          3. @ Steve I agree that healthy debate is essential, but I also think it is important to keep the debate current and based in at least some form of evidence. I am not sure what you mean about commentators and “their condition”??? Which condition might you be referring to??? If you mean HIV then say it don’t dance around the subject to spare my feelings!

        2. Samuel it is your notion I am employed by the HIV sector and I am not – I don’t currently work (now the accusation of being a scrounger comes into play no doubt).

          This has to be very good news that the situation around the world is improving, which on a population scale the viral load is reducing which means less forward transmissions in the grand scheme of things.
          As I have said many times Samuel get off your arse and campaign directly to the HIV charities you loath so much. Your irrational fear is obvious as are your deflection tactics

          1. I would have thought rather than the snide and cynical comments of Samuel, these positive and optimistic reports from the UN should be celebrated and embraced to try and deal with the issue of HIV, which has hit LGBT communities, but not unilaterally, consider the increased rate of growth in heterosexuals in the EU and Africa … and the slowing of growth in LGBT communities …

            Lets work to ensure HIV is dealt with effectively and in a joined up manner rather than spouting rhetoric that has no impact on the virus

    2. Where do you get your statistics? the highest point for HIV was in 2005 and the cases of newly diagnosed has decreased since then (http://www.avert.org/uk-statistics.htm) and as for AIDS the peak was in 1994 and is at its lowest

      1. Ohh and I forgot to say please read the article it is about deaths not contraction :P

        1. Hi Dafy, much as I wish you were correct, this very site reported on 27th October:

          “Health Protection Agency figures released at the time showed that 3,000 gay and bisexual men were diagnosed with HIV last year – the highest number recorded.”

          http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/10/27/government-says-it-must-do-more-to-tackle-hiv/

          This problem ain’t going away – in fact it’s getting worse each year. THAT is the scandal W6 and his like are denying. What is empowering about gay men aquiring a chronic, life-wasting disease? Orwellian doublespeak will get us nowhere!!

          1. You are yet again making assumptions Samuel, where have I ever denied the increase in new HIV infections – please provide the quote to prove this. You make these wild statements without having any knowledge to back them up.

            What will you be dong for World Aids Day? A question you seem not to want to answer, because it will be a big fat nothing I am very sure! Get of your arse, actions speak louder than words!

          2. “What is empowering about gay men aquiring a chronic”

            Who on earth thinks contracting HIV is “empowering”? My god, grow the f*** up.

        2. Ok so I was reading the overall newly diagnosed for HIV and not just for gay men, I wonder what the relevant contraction to age statistics are (can’t seem to find them). I wonder (and this is purely speculative) what would of happened if section 28 or whatever stopped influencing sex education

    3. this message is so important more gay men are becoming infected with HIV the infection rate is increasing.

      AIDS related deaths are down I guess to better drugs and knowledge

      By the Pink News sad to see you failed to mention the film being released on the onset of HIV in San Francisco called We Were Here currently being screen at the ICA in London dvd release/itunes 5th December very moving

      1. I disagree, all the sites I have visited has shown that since 2005 the infection of HIV has been decreasing (as the site with the statistics I posted earlier) but I do admit that it is the statistics for the UK I have been mentioning :)

        1. Check out the Health Protection Agency Dafy. Last ear was the highest recorded cases of new infections in gay men. Nt a good place to be, that said this ay we the result of increased testing rates amongst gay men.

          Let’s see what the final figures for 2011 will be, it would be great to see an overall reduction in both new diagnosis and undiagnosed HIV.

      2. Hi Gav there has been an article about “we were here” check out the entertainment or community features.

  2. Jock S. Trap 22 Nov 2011, 2:01pm

    This is positive news and goes some way to showing that treatments are working. Yes lots more work has to be done on prevention but lets not dismiss this news, it’s good news esp for anyone who has HIV.

    1. Yes Jock, depending on where you live. It most certainly is not good news where UK gay men are concerned because it is not reflective of what is going on here. Two decades of failed HIV prevention campaigns and £1 billion a year now spent on antiretrovirals. It’s a shame Pink News did not pick up on the scary mainstream news a couple of weeks back that the NHS is now considering switching to less effective generic HIV drugs because (it claims) it can no longer justify paying top dollar for the top-line drugs. Why has there been on public outcry over this proposal? Yes, W6, this will affect you too, so how about diverting some of your frustartion and angst at the real enemy for once?

      1. There are no plans to use generic drugs for HIV treatment in the UK, this is just you scaremongering again Samuel. In future it is proposed that HIV medications will be centrally procured to obtain further ale for money.

        This is already happening in London, and all modern drugs are of equal effectiveness in terms of managing VL and with the development of home delivery the VAT on meds can be saved. You have no experience of living with HIV so jog on and pick a pissing contest elsewhere

      2. Consistency of argument is always a good place to start – on HIV meds cost I thought you would welcome any use of generic HIV drugs, as you are constantly saying HIV charities are in the pockets of the pharma companies, and both are conspiring to create new infections thus earning more money for the pharma companies.

        I do my bit to keep costs down and encourage others to do the same. I see my consultant once a year, my drugs are delivered at home and I only have bloods done twice a year all by my own request! You Samuel may one day require treatment for HIV or some other chronic illness, never say never eh? Who knows what is around the corner for you!

        1. No, W6, I am never likely to be as reckless or careless as you so HIV is never likely to be an issue for me, thank God. Where have you been burying your head these past few weeks? All the major mainstream press carried news of proposals to move some HIV patients onto cheaper generic drugs, but anyone with half a brain could have seen this coming. Yes, even the HIV charities who have helped create this massive problem which, if this move to cheaper generics does go ahead, will only exacerbate as gay men who were responding well to more effective treatments go into reverse on the secondary drugs. We must not allow this to happen, but who in the gay community is sounding the alarm? Have we really become so apathetic and self-absorbed that no one actually gives a fig anymore?

          1. Please post the articles you are referring to Samuel as I keep upto date on these matters, now stop telling porkies and provide the source of your information.

            Again you are making assumptions on how I became positive, could have been blood products, oral sex or a failed condom, or even rape, take your pick fool!

            I take it you never have any oral or anal sex Samuel???

          2. Samuel you are a nasty piece of work in your comments about HI positive individuals being reckless or careless, you are in no position to make these wild assumptions about how people contract HIV – take your irrational fear elsewhere because you clearly have no empathy or understanding of people living with HIV.

            You are getting as bad as the deranged character Keith!

          3. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-england-london-15525537

            Now, W6, care to apologise for accusing me of telling porkies? You have made so many wild assumptions about me it beggars belief. Hopefully this link will bring you to your senses and you can join me in condemning the proposal to switch gay men’s medications to cheaper and undoubtedly less effective generics. Are you with me on this or still continuing with the tirade of verbiage?

          4. Oh please Samuel this is old news and refers to the arrangements in London I referred to earlier. There is no mention of the use of generic drugs being used or as you put it “secondary drugs” whatever that means. Atazanavir is a very well known drug that has equal effectiveness when compared other PI’s and is very popular in first line combo’s as it has less side effects than some older PI’s. In the months since the changes were introduced I know of only one person who has been asked to swap to a different drug of equal effectiveness. Yes people new to treatment are no longer offered drugs like Atripla but are offered the same meds just not in one pill. You are wrong ant just scaremongering, nothing new there!

          5. There is a great deal of monitoring by the HIV charities for anyone beng asked to change treatments based on cost. Let us not forget that some clinicians have their “preferred” drugs to use and the recent article is a very late attempt to discredit the attempts to reduce the drug bill – that’s why more positive individuals need to be more empowered to become informed about treatment regimens. There are still many paternalistic consultants out there and they don’t like their wings beng clipped in my view! Patients must be at the centre of their care, I know I am, and I would help anyone be. N the same position.

          6. Well if what you say is true, W6, I am pleased to hear that. It wasn’t how the press appeared to be reported it, so I am grateful that you have been able to clarify the situation and it is not what it seemed. Thank you.

          7. I am in shock but am grateful for your comment Samuel, scroll down I have posted my reference point.

            There are many untruths written in our newspapers and it is our job to bring out the truth, which has always been my aim when I contribute to these comments threads.

          8. Certainly there were concerns about how HIV treatments may change in London and elsewhere, mainly (if not all) of these concerns have been allayed – and review groups are monitoring to ensure there is compliance with best clinical practice

  3. I’d say from reading a lot of your other posts you have plenty of other things abput yourself to be worrying about anyway

  4. Meanwhile in one very wealthy country with bad HIV policies that bankrupt entire families, poor access to medication, criminalisation of gay men, deportation of foreign talent who test positive, the trend is the opposite of everywhere else…it is actually rising in Singapore, while it is falling in the poorer surrounding countries. This seems to be because of the influence of Christian Conservatives who want to punish people for getting the disease.

  5. Jock S. Trap 22 Nov 2011, 3:33pm

    “AIDs is not something I need concern myself with.”
    -
    Well no, not when your brand of ignorance kills many more people.

    1. Ignore the troll!

    2. ok for your benefit, there was in the UK (2009) 1.1% cases of mother-child transmission of HIV which is 74 children. http://www.tht.org.uk/informationresources/factsandstatistics/uk/mothertobaby/ (I wonder how many are infected during usage of drugs and not sex)

      Ok now lets put this in perspective, number of child abuse in 2009 was 21618 http://www.child-abuse-facts.info/child-abuse-statistics-2009.php

      4100 still births in 2009 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13068789)

      Though I do not deny that 1.1% is still bad but with 21618 child abuse cases and 4100 still born babies I think I am more concerned about that.

      1. Sigh I knew it was pointless commenting but I thought it was worth a shot, ok back to ignoring the foul excuse of a human being who is happy to see thousands of still born babies and 10′s of thousands of child abuse cases go on just so long as hiv babies dont happen.

        Sad Sad man

      2. i really wish the webmaster would pass the IP details onto the police these comments border on hate

        1. I have spoken to police about this and they believe Pink News are the victims of hate crime. I have offered to be a witness and the Police are happy to engage, hopefully PN will act and deal with the hatred – so far, I have been sad to see no action on the offer of police investigation from PN themselves.

          1. “Are you still banging on about this?”

            Are you still banging on about you being “straight”?

          2. Another Keith 24 Nov 2011, 12:39pm

            “I tend not to promote the ‘greatness of straightness’”

            Strange that. You did mention that you’re “reformed” in this area. How bizarre. How long is it since the “conversion” then?

          3. People…can you not just ignore this fool? The reason why he’s staying around is because you indulge him. Thumb him down by all means – just don’t bother to read his inane ramblings.

      3. I think he passes the border on hate and even brags about it on occasion

    3. And how many innocents have died by the self righteousness of ‘moral men’ such as yourself?

      1. I think the current estimated toll of deaths caused by the christians is approximately 800 million. all moral men who unnervily believe in the bible like you do.

        And he did not say you directly he said such s yourself

      2. I talk of men, who because of there belief in the perfection of heterosexuality, believe that they are unable to catch AIDS because it is ‘filthy sodomitical disease’ and in turn are at risk of hurting themselves and those who they love.

  6. There is no question that HIV charities work tirelessley to ensure that the message gets across.

    My issue is that the strategies used were beginning to become outdated in my opinion. THT and the like tend to chastise (I’ve said this previously today also, so forgive the repition) and I’m not sure that’s effective anymore – we quickly become desensitised. Although they still dome some amazing work.

    Thankfully we also have GMFA and GMI who also work on a more microcosmic basis. An individual approach is very effective.

    Ultimately it looks like people are learning and I’m sorry to raise the obvious fear when I say the following but…we don’t know how many people remain undiagnosed so the stats by their nature aren’t strictly accurate.

    1. there should be more emphasis on the prevention of HIV being taught at school and also great re-education of parents as well. All children and parents should have compulsory education which covers not only transmission of diseases and unwanted pregnancies and such like but equal time given to disease prevention in homosexual love making (plus equal relationship education in both hetero and homosexuality).

    2. The undiagnosed stats for gay men estimate is 26% . The stats are relatively accurate as they are arrived at by anonymous blood testing that may be taken during any routine blood test. They are totally anonymous and cannot be traced to any individual, this is how the HPA calculate HIV prevelance etc.

      I think it is important that there is a multi channel approach to prevention work, but I am not in favour or campaigns that creat fear, add to stigma and are based on so called “harder hitting messages”. I await for Samuel to have his usual outburst lol!

      1. So tell me, W6, where is your evidence that harder-hitting “fear based” campaigns do not work? All available evidence in fact suggests that they do.

        Surely, any change in approach to the ineffective PC hogwish served up ad nauseum by your chums at THT and GMFA has got to be worth a try? In fact this very issue was recently debated in the House of Lords where it was agreed that THT/GMFA’s “prevention lite” approach has been a total failure. It’s all in this parliamentary report:

        http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201012/ldselect/ldaids/188/18807.htm#a20

        THT was also chastised for evaluating its own work from data provided by its yes-men at Sigma who it commissioned to run its annual sex surveys. THAT’S why the effectiveness of their campaigns has never been properly assessed before now – behaviour verging on the criminal because it sought THT deceive us all that its approach succeeded when it did anything but, thereby retaining its funding and ensuring business as usual.

        1. Did you copy any paste that from another comment thread you hijacked – it do remember the exact same information. This comments thread is about the reduction in AIDS related death not about your narrow mind and point scoring. You are obsessed by my comments Samuel, bu I notice you are not so vocal against others – this clearly shows your prejudice towards HIV people, particularly me it would seem, why is this, out with it fool!

          1. You have a selective interpretation to the HoL report Samuel, you obviously missed the bit about stigma being an important barrier to testing and early diagnosis and treatment. This is because this does not fit in with your out dated ideology. Like this good news on reduction in AIDS related death, or life expectancy increases they demonstrate the advances that have been made over 30 years.

            I hope that the HoL recommendations are implemented in full and have always advocated this. We need a step change to deal with idiots like you peddling crap about HIV, treatment and out of date knowledge

        2. I agree with both of you completely. We, as gay men, shouldn’t just let LGBT charities take the work on. It should be up to schools and even moreso up to parents to educate their kids and encourage them to use condoms.

          I also agree with you W6. The methods to counter HIV in the 1980′s and 90′s tend to still be used and I really do not think that they’re suitable. There is a necessity to develop strategies and not just rely on ancient methods.

  7. oh my god with have a moron amongst as -why are you visiting a gay site dear?

  8. I have been accused on this thread of spreading disinfiormation and telling outright porkies that plans are afoot to ask HIV-positive gay men to switch their medications to cheaper and invariably less effective generics. W6 has challenged me to present evidence of media coverage of this disturbing story, so here it is:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-england-london-15525537

    I have to say, I think it is appalling this has not been covered in the gay media. This is a potentially disastrous proposal that could have lethal consequences for untold numbers of HIV-infected individuals. Why is this not being discussed? They found excuses to withhold life-saving drugs from cancer patients. Will HIV meds be next?

    1. As an aside to NHS cost reductions, I yesterday was for the first time prescribed a generic version of a drug my GP has been prescribing to me for the last 2 years. When I enquirer about the reason for the change, it was confirmed that is was due to cost factors and my surgery have been conducting cost analysis for high volume drugs, with a view to saving money.

      The thing that struck me was that this change was not discussed with me – this certainly should not be the case where anyone on stable HIV treatment must have full discussions about any proposed changes, and patients cannot be forced to change. If anyone has been forced to change HIV treatment due to cost only, please contact NAT or THT Direct as they are closely monitoring this.

  9. And here’s the story as reported by the London Standard:

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24004524-hiv-patients-told-to-use-cheaper-drugs.do

    Satisfied, W6, or would you like links to The Times, Independent, Guardian et al also?

    1. Read up Samuel it is obvious you’d have no understanding of current HIV treatments. Generic drugs are not mentioned in either of these articles, so you are wrong about generics being used.

      No patient on a stable NNRTI regimen is being asked to make any changes. The PI Atazanavir is not a generic drug, it has been successfully used for many years, and is cheaper than the second generation PI Darunavir. Raltegravir is often wanted by many because of the perception it is a great new drug, like all meds it has it’s limitations, the biggest if which is twice daily dosing and low resistance profile as compared to NNRTI and PI regimens. Samuel there is nothing you can lecture me on with regards to meds, I know my stuff – jog on fool!

      1. I get my information from the experts not second hand in the press, who lets face it love to sensationalise anything related to HIV just like you do! It is obvious that cost will become more important and this is why I spend a grea deal of time helping others to have the confidence to challenge treatment decisions as the doc’s are not always correct and I have evidence to suggest that often people starting treatment are not even given the basic choices that are available even under the new arrangements in London.

        Now will you Samuel concede that you are wrong and confirm that there are no plans to use generic drugs in th UK. Incidently what is wrong with generic drugs if they are as effective, many of us take generics every day, HIV meds are no different to changes in patents etc. Cheater does not always equal less effective.

        1. Total scaremongering in your comments about the drug changes in London, you sensationalise everything. The pill Atripla contains Efavirenz, Tenofovir and Emtricitabine three drugs in one pill. This is no longer generally available in London with the alternative being Efavirenz with either Abacavir and Lamivudine in the combined pill Kivexa or Truvada which is made up of Tenofovir and Emtricitabine, which are all effective NRTI backbones to use with either Efavirenz or the PI Atazanavir. This assumes no resistance or other underlying health conditions being present in the patient. As I say Samuel please do some research before you rely on secondhand information we see in the press.

          1. I should say thatvAtripla is generally no longer available for people starting treatment. Individuals already on Atripla are not being asked to change regimens, sorry for any confusion here. http://www.aidsmap.co.uk/prescribing-in-london

            Read it Samuel you might learn something factual

    2. In some cases there is no problem with cheaper drugs – the formulation is identical and there should be no impact, but this should be dealt with in terms of proper consultation with the patient and consent of the patient …

      No alterations to or new treatment regime should commence without informed consent… thats simple clinical ethics that all clinicians should respect – regardless of what business managers in the NHS perceive …

      There was some bad publicity in this area, but most, if not all, of the concerns have been appropriately addressed …

      The stories Samuel is examining are old stories that are no longer as they were reported a few months or weeks back (or longer in some cases). The House of Lords report is far different in full context then the selected snippets Samuel tries to spin …

      The reality is that HIV is a chronic condition that is (by and large) managed well (theoretically) in the UK, with the protocols and management plans that exist, but as ….

      1. … the health secretary has stated its important to do more, and ensure that the reality is the same as the theory (for all patients).

  10. Ratzinger tells Africans never to use a condom to protect themselves from HIV

    http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/pope-poor-ethics-lead-to-hiv-and-aids-134315028.html

  11. Agreed, W6 (who would have believed it?!).

    Btw W6, you ask if I enjoy sex with guys, Of course I do, and lots of it when I can! You may also be interested to hear I never, ever discriminate against positive men for the simple fact that I do always play safe. Nothing makes me angrier than the HIV apartheid mentality that is rampant in our world, and I would never be so ignorant or unfeeling as to vet someone’s status and make that a basis as to whether or not I sleep with them.

    Sorry for the implication earlier that to acquire HIV you must either be careless or reckless. Of course accidents can and do happen. We must all simply find a way to support and protect each other in a way we can all feel comfortable with but which demonstrably serves to lower infection rates. Business as usual simply is not an option.

    Good that we have found some common ground here!

    1. @Samuel

      I wanted to thumb your comment up – but the system won’t let me …

      Usually when I see you and comments on HIV issues, I tense because usually I find myself feeling that your approach is detrimental to the fight – there are two things in particular that I like in your comment above …

      Firstly, your acknowledgement and (what I perceive as a passionate view) that prejudice on grounds of HIV status is damaging and wrong …

      Secondly, I think you misjudged the words you used in an earlier comment and your apology for the implication of those misjudged words is helpful and adds a level of sincerity to your argument (that I acknowledge I did not expect to find – sorry!).

      I have three positive friends where it was not careless or reckless occurances that led to their infection – one was raped, one had a blood transfusion overseas and another had a failed condom. All sad and unfortunate events … I do have other friends who would acknowledge that their infection …

    2. … may have been or was due to their recklessness.

      I agree that we need to find good effective ways of trying to ensure that the infection rates decrease. We need to acknowledge though that some programmes that you feel are not effective, may have been effective to some individuals and thus be worthwhile. Likewise, you may endorse a scheme which I feel is unworkable or unlikely to be effective, but if it has a positive and constructive impact then it should be evaluated and endorsed if it works.

    3. After a particularly challenging day what a really pleasant surprise to read your comment and apology Samuel – I would never have expected such a public change of opinion. Thankyou for having the courage to post your comments. I am somewhat bemused about the change of heart towards me, but let’s move on!

      I can totally agree with Stu, he is able to express things very well and he has done so in response to your comment Samuel, nice one. Debate on HIV prevention messages is a very difficult area as witnessed in th very heated exchanges on many articles featured in PN. We must all work together to help overcome continued rise in new HIV infections, it’s not going to be easy and we can all do our bit.

      I am firmly on the educational side of the debate as I believe this will have lasting results, which in my opinion will provide the best outcomes for the majority of gay men and the rest of the population. Keep it real and factual then I am very happy to support prevention interventions.

      1. Thanks Stu and W6 for acknowledging my last post. While we may differ on the best approach to tackling HIV, we are at least unanimous that our shared concern is to see HIV rates fall, rapidly. For all the animosity that may have been displayed here, there is no doubt that we all care passionately for our community.

        My own passion – and, to an extent anger – in wanting to see an improvement in HIV prevention stems from my own personal experiences of having witnessed too much pain and anguish from those dear to me who have contracted HIV, and having suffered personal losses.

        There is undisputedly a degree of complacency around HIV that has served to lull gay men into a flase sense of security over the implications of contracting the virus, and it needs to be addressed.
        If only we could put all approaches to tackling HIV into a pot, give it a good stir and come up with something that we are all in accord with, and which WORKS, then that is the solution we should be striving for.

        1. PS: If HIV stories come up in future, I look forward to taking this debate into a new sphere and discussing with you, not against you, our common ground in tackling HIV and the different approaches that are available and why they may or may not prove effective. It will be good to feel that we are on the same side, which of course we seentially are, but from now on discussing our differences with an understanding for, and respect of, the others’ point of view.

        2. @Samuel

          I think the outcome we all seek is very similar and core to all of that is as rapid a reduction in infection rates as we can establish.

          We have argued hard on approaches – but we passionately all want the same result. Its likely that in some scenarios, your approach will be the best. In other scenarios – an approach similar to those W6 and I endorse may work better. In reality what is probably needed to ensure the best outcome is that combined approach that you allude to with your putting it all in a pot. We all need to be able to accept a different approach and changing approach if something works with particular communities or individuals.

          Again, sorry for prejudging what I expected to hear from you … its refreshing to see that we can agree and agree to disagree.

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