This is strange coincidence? just as our government announced plans to withdraw financial aid from homophobic countries, hmm… I wonder if there’s a link…
that hadnt occured to me but yes i think you are spot on!
If there is a link then what a great endorsement for our policy and long may it continue!
Gawd bless the influence of the liberals in the coalition!
Great news if it has been influenced by the UK govt policy, recent comments by the ex Botswanian President or the upcoming proposals at the Commonwealth conference in Australia …
Lets keep up the pressure …
In one sense, I dont care whether they change the law to decriminalize homosexuality out of genuine regard for human rights, or if its due to diplomatic, economic or other pressure …as long as they change …
If the change is not due to a genuine desire to see human rights, after the law is changed we can work on educating them further …
last sentence of ur comment, such colonial style patronising
Not at all intended in that way … I think there are things that the UK can learn (and needs to learn) from other nations including African nations in many areas – some of them ethical …
The UK itself only learned fairly recently of the important of human rights for all people …
Some things transcend culture and background and that is human rights …
Education is part of this process …
Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully, but the sentiment was not one of arrogance that the UK knows better, more a case of sharing the lessons we have learned from mistakes made in the past and helping other nations adapt to ensure that their citizens are treated with respect (or more respect)
forget a millions time , we are not interested in learning this abomination !!!!!!
Fine – please stop begging for money from the west then, We owe Zimbsabwe nothing. Your evil president destroyed your country all by himself.
Then don’t ask us for help dealing with the other appalling breaches of human rights by your government … or as David says, complain when we withdraw our aid from your country …. given the travesty of your economy – you sorely need any aid you can get …
Please consider that Universal Human Rights are the greatest gift we can give to the next generations.
You may not be ‘interested’ but you can’t stop nature no matter how your chosen religious lifestyle tells you. Some Africans are Gay, Get used to it.
Morgan Tsvangirai is a decent and brave man who has suffered greatly and sacrificed much in pursuit of a better Zimbabwe without Robert Mugabe. Apart from constant harassment and the serious repeated beatings by Mugabe’s goons, we should remember the last time he tried to oust Mugabe at an election his wife was killed in a road “accident” and he was forced into a coalition government by African Union mediators despite the fact that he had clearly won but for massive vote rigging. It’s quite possible he’s had a genuine change of heart and I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Don’t forget, he could well be murdered for saying this.
Also, the photo accompanying this article has captured a kindness in the Prime Ministers face.
Works for these people, the 1%, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di04_vKfqNw
that’s nt right. The bible does not allow homosexuality… Need i say more?
You going to the next slave auction? I hear they’re going cheap this time of year.
no you need never say anything else again thanks
The bible doesn’t allow a lot of things, such as eating shellfish, wearing mixed fibres, disabled people and menstruating women in churches etc. so it is not something that anyone should take too seriously, even Christians.
Bring back slavery and I’ll respect biblical teaching on homosexuality.
You’re quite restrained on what you need for respecting them …
I need them to bring back slavery, ban eating shellfish, restrictions on menstruating women, and a code of conduct for wearing hats … well at least for starters … there are plenty more besides …
Calm down, son. It’s very interesting listening to a religious person explaining why slavery was ok “back in those days”.
I have never heard of a convincing argument on why it is unacceptable today when certain religious books clearly and unambiguously codify how slavery should be carried out and the relevant religious organisations have not amended these religious laws.
I believe Lincoln and Wilberforce were ahead of their time and using secular values to insist on the well-being of all humanity.
Lol, just saying I would expect more movement lol
I agree the slavery issue is one that can not be (in my opinion) justified either secularly or theologically …
I think Wilberforce was a remarkably fine and upstanding man and had more integrity than many Christian leaders of his time
Bring back slavery and I’ll respect biblical teaching on homosexuality…
It doesn’t allow judging others either you tit
Yes… you could give us some evidence that God wrote this book of yours..
Usually dudes are laid back, you sound too uptight to be a dude. I think it was Wilde that said history would be the death of religion and here you are in the 21st burping this nonsense… Wake up, Dude, because you’re posting rubbish on a gay news website…
Really? A book made up from male control freaks? How sad are you?
dude, are you for real. That Leviticus quote you’re invoking is found in the Jewish part of the bibld, NOT the new Christian testament, idiot.
And atheism isn’t exactly squeaky clean, no matter what atheists like to tell you…..
All this religion-phobia, and for what? To trade places with the hater?
Nice strawman. What does atheism have to do with the discussion?
He answered a troll asking for the bible to be considered in the matter of homosexuality.
Bring back slavery and I’ll respect biblical teaching on homosexuality. Otherwise, STFU. Please.
What troll? Am I a troll because I recognise atheist rhetoric the moment I see it? Or am I a troll because I am pointing out that atheists have no better a track record than religious people?
I’m gay, incidentally.
I was referring to “dude” above, as the troll.
I explained how you brought up atheism when it wasn’t in any way relevant.
The troll “dude” said:
>>> that’s nt right. The bible does not allow homosexuality… Need i say more?
>>>dude, are you for real. That Leviticus quote you’re invoking is found in the Jewish part of the bibld, NOT the new Christian testament, idiot.
And you say:
>>> And atheism isn’t exactly squeaky clean, no matter what atheists like to tell you…..All this religion-phobia, and for what? To trade places with the hater?
For making me type this, you now also qualify as a troll.
PS: Why is the fact that you are gay relevant here?
Well sorry about that, it wasn’t at all clear who you were talking to, it looked like that was all aimed at me. That’s why I told you I was gay – because I thought you were calling me some sort of anti-gay troll.
The people I was talking to are replies to the very poorly rated comment above, such as:
>> “You going to the next slave auction? I hear they’re going cheap this time of year”
Since those comments are now minimised it does look like I am talking to the air, sorry.
No problem! But I stand by what I said: Bring back slavery and I’ll respect biblical teaching on homosexuality. Otherwise, STFU. Please.
You are very right Fox’s comments are a clear distraction …
They may be a worthy debating point in other contexts, here they try to deflect away from the subject matter under consideration
Thts unacceptble.anythng against e bible is eligal.
The bible is fiction. Oh dear, I’ve broken the law. Ha ha.
Err, no you haven’t?
The things they are talking about are the nasty kind of muck that racists and anti-gay people yell. That does include hate-speech by atheists, who can be just as hate-filled as anyone.
You will find that atheists are more times often than not, on the defence from the religious.
Such as in North Korea, China, or the Soviet Union?
“Such as in North Korea, China, or the Soviet Union?”
Yes, all of them bastions of freedom, democracy, free speech and free commerce.
My point exactly.
I.e. Nothing to do with atheism. I’m an atheist but I support freedom of religion. It does include freedom from religion for those who choose it.
Oh So true Dr Robin!!
Atheists *can* be hate filled – and there have been occasions on PN when I have robustly challenged some hatred from atheists either towards those with faith or bizarrely towards gay people
However, usually I find atheists are pragmatic and relatively easy going and willing to be balanced in their views and opinions – adapting them if they are given a perspective they havent considered before.
I think there can be more hatred from the religious (although my view is that it is a minority within the religious who are anti gay – unfortunately a very vocal minority who pander to the press and media).
Both sides can spout hate, I think in terms of volume there is usually more from those who are religious though …
I’m very glad you support freedom of religion, few atheists seem to. Most seem to want to go on the Russian route and ban it entirely.
I was just trying to point out to Guthrie that, while a lot of atheists like to think of themselves as victims of Christianity, many times in recent history it has been the other way round. And in a big way.
Hmm, that did come out a bit harsher than I meant….
Humans can be pretty nasty. Religious people have killed other religious people. Religious people have killed non-religious people. Non-religious people have killed religious people. Non-religious people have killed non-religious people.
In the end, religion is a personal thing, and people would do well to keep it in their homes and places of worship, and let civil law regulate civil society based on the Declaration of Human Rights. That is all.
Russia is a poor example if you ask me.
The Communist ideology was totalitarian and just as dogmatic as a religion, while reasonable atheists simply inquire as to evidence for religious beliefs, while respecting the fact that freedom of religion is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
A secular morality would be more concerned with the well-being of all humanity than religions or totalitarian regimes have ever been, that’s all.
For example, religious beliefs insists that homosexuality is evil simply because it is so written in a book that was supposedly written by the creator of the universe.
However, evidence points to the fact that untold thousands of homosexuals have contributed to the well being of the societies in they lived, and still do…. while religious people are less inclined to respect all human rights.
That’ll be Dr Guthrie to you.
It took me 9 years to earn that badge so I’ll use it.
I think my point is that yet again on these fora, we have resorted to discussing religion. Athiesm etc.
The story was about Zimbabwe and gay rights, and yes, Im well aware that there is a religous basis to this problem but that is not what the story was about.
We ended up on the religion issue due to a couple of religious based posts.
That is what I am objecting to.
I tend to agree on this post that the deviation into religion was unfortunate and probably not hugely relevant to the particular topic
I do agree with Fox Tigers contention that atheists can be as bigoted as religious people – although I would contend the volume of religious bigotry is often more apparent. I do think there is a place on these threads for discussion of religion, philosophy and similar agendas as they are of interest to some who are gay – certainly not all, but they gay people come from all areas of life.
I think the positive thing about this story is a chink in the darkness that is Zimbabwe in terms of human rights and LGBT rights.
Once you have autopsied some of these cadaveters then feel free to state your opinion.
In the mean time feel free to think that life is all fluffy and unprejudiced as Stu the ex cop speaks.
I fail to see what life experience you gain from performing post mortems (having been present at a fair few) … that adds anything to perspective or opinion that could not be gained from other experience (of which you may lack).
Life is not all fluffy and equal – that is the entire point of most of my posts … I am seeking equality because we don’t have it …
I am surprised that a man with the intelligence of nine years of study has the ignorance you clearly have
First of all: learn to spell. When you learn to spell, maybe you’ll have an easier time making an argument. Secondly: I’m paraphrasing here since your spelling is terrible, but “anything against the bible is illegal”? Was that what you were trying to say? You do realise that since the spread of Enlightenment ideas the widespread agreement is that law is a rational thing, decided by a general consensus and critical thought, and not determined by any religion? If we decide we’re ok with religion governing, which religion gets to govern? There are so many sects of Protestant Christianity alone! Each one of them has different ideas on human behavior, so where do we draw the line? Do we fine women who show up to church with their hair uncovered? Do we imprison people who eat pork? If church enrollment is mandatory, I guess that means everyone must be baptised, but many denominations can’t even agree on what constitutes baptism! Do we deny the vote to people who were sprinkled?
Changing the name doesn’t add weight to your boring comments.
I’m my own person not rules but a book by over inflated male egod control freaks…. isn’t that why you hate?! I think so Keith!!
About 95% of the world population support same sex. That does not mean God support it.It is actually an indication of how far we have gone.In the bible we had Cain and Abel. Whose child was Cain?The bible says he was of the evil one – really?Yes he was.Now 95% of the population falls into the lineage of Cain. That lineage is still existing and that’s where we found the children of Cain some of whom are homosexuals today.If you read the bible well, those people were there.So if someone who intend to be a leader support that, then we know whose child he/she is and we can not do anything about it. One born chirema remains chirema. Our duty as christians is to pray that these people may not populate the church especially in Zimbabwe.At least they must not until the rapture.
Oh sod off………………….
And take your religious babble with you.
Here we go again. More religious sh!t.
They just can’t help themselves.
As a gay Roman Catholic I just want to say that this guy does not in any way speak for mainstream Christianity. In actual fact, I’m having a hard time believing he isn’t a sock-puppet. Real Christians don’t sound like that. This guy is a nutcase, or a fraud, or both. Just ignore him.
If you start being phobic and nasty back at him, what does that prove?
So, the self-righteous “real christians” like you defend the nutcases like him….and the nutcase is then free to influence public policy in your name?
Well given that from your statement you are intrinsically disorded as stated by the Pope, why should I pay any attention.
Any “cult” that told me I was so disorded would be getting the swift bums rush..
Strange to hear you paying attention to anything the Pope says Dr Guthrie – I thought your interpretation of that would be to react in an opposing manner …
However my 7 glasses of wine has loosened my moaning…..
Timne for bed.
Well I didnt quite get to match your 7 glasses, but my 3 galsses of pinot noir were very pleasant …
Nice to see we can agree on some things – some humorous and some serious (despite clearly disagreeing on a lot too). Keeps life interesting!
Ok Ok we understand you ( bride of jesus indeed) are just a total psychopath. Shame really just when i thought the world had enough idiots – there you go! Another one advertises themselves and pops up out of the blue to rabble the the devils bigoted word! Spreading your evil around like fresh news for gospel ( ummmmmm 2 thousand years ago!) very up to date stuff eh! I should take note of the genius behind you…Thanks for enlightening me bright spark.
Ive decided that Harry Potter is the new holy book, so in future im going to go around forcing people to play quidditch and ride broomsticks- after all its says they do in the book! Any one who doesnt agree with me can get stuffed- after all the book cannot be wrong can it! and im going to whine and quote passages that suit me to everyone that doesnt agree with me- ITS IN THE BOOK IT CANT BE WRONG!!
rant over, bible bashers really get my goat!
I thought Christians were meant to spread the “good news”.
It seems that all they ever do is spread poison.
Your Jesus would be ashamed of you.
Its not illegal to say anything against the bible. but it is outrageous to comment the old books word and force it onto gay articles in the news!
Bring back slavery and I’ll respect biblical teaching on homosexuality..
So if Abel was the good one, one assumes he had sex with his mother Eve to continue the species? I’m under the impression that incest is frowned upon in the longest running work of fiction.
You are thick and evil. Read the ten commandments then read the new testement. Your reading of the bible is utter rubbish, backwards and dwelling on the least important parts. The ten commndments you fool, to save yourself.
Dickhead the mark of cain is brown skin so all you africans are inherently evil and it makes sense look at the state of africa if there was one place that could be described as hell it would be anywhere where africans are
Ha ha! I’ve never laughed so much. What a womble.
Watch it!! The Wombles are educational. Far more so than any religion I think!! lol
Crazy says what now? Medication time I think!
Well this got off topic quickly, but yes the financial aid is pretty much right on the money. It’s a shame that we have to treat some politicians like children in order to get things done.
Agreed. The first thing Camaron wanted when he got in was to repeal the fox-hunting ban. Talk about priorities.
The sad thing is is that Im a white Zimbabwean gay male ( Rhodesia) and its just so tough to have seen the whole country fall into… well need I say more. It could have been like South Africa ( not 100% great but on the right track and SA has great gay laws compared to the rest of the backward continent)
most tory mp’s like being treat like children..nappies, nanny, spanking etc.
Are you a Tory MP?
PM Morgan Tszangirai did surprise me more than I can say, and his tone of voice sounds sincere to me:
Hopefully he was influenced by the Commonwealth, and I hope other countries will be as well.
Blimey, that’s a turn around. One wonders how much of this is him distancing himself from Mugabe, and how much this is sudden fear at losing the £540million a year they receive from the UK in “aid” (blood money).
Amazing how these ‘deep-rooted’ strongly held religious and personal beliefs evaporate when cash is mentioned.
I think I’d respect them more if they at least stuck to their morals. What sub-human scum they really are.
You forgot “African values”.
Wow What an about-face! I hope he is for real. Isn’t the whole point of threatening to cut off aid to get them to change their minds. Whatever, the reason, if it truly does happen it will be a breakthrough.
well said, progress is progress ….
Only problem is, if we give back the aid will they go back to wanting to kill gays?
He is stating the obvious really. Every one should value human rights whatever your sexuality. Gay rights are a measure of everyone’s rights in any society. Gay/bi/straight.
I don’t drink but I like that to be my decision and my decision only.
Pragmatism trumps prejudice ALWAYS.
Keep applying financia pressure and hopefully some of the cowardly Caribbean Commonwealth heads of state will also cave too. However, I still believe changing the culture from the roots up- the lack of education, undue religious influence, skewed values about masculinity will go a long way in greating a grassroots groundswell of pro-gay support.
Bloody Nora Batty! I thought that Morgan Tsvangirai was as bad as Robert Mugabe when it came to homophobia! Maybe he met a gay bloke and realised that we are human after all. Many homophobic people change for the better when they encounter someone who is openly gay. Jacob Zuma had a similar change of heart some time ago. The next step is for Morgan Tsvangirai to get rid of Robert Mugabe and return Zimbabwe to democracy, making it the bread basket of Africa again and receive much-needed aid.
He apparently id have a chat, and if I’m right, it wasn’t blokes, but ‘girlz aloud’ wot did it…
Interesting. Let us see it in action and real time.
Hurm you think ? lol . The damn beggars are happy to be a tad more pro gay now the money might not come . The comparison to ‘human rights’ as that is exactly what they need to do ( and so not just help gay rights ) in order to obtain the british hand outs. Doubt theres much substance to it and I doubt Mr. Cameron and co will double check and will continue to feed the impoverished homophobes with British and British gay money.
Sure it’s an expedient political move for now, but social change doesn’t happen overnight.
I would prefer them to come to the realisation that gay people deserve basic human rights independent of carrot and stick tactics, but without such sanctions I doubt this kind of consideration would even be on the agenda. That’s the world of realpolitic.
Tsvangirai has no shame. Probably just said that to make himself look more contemporary on Newsnight. Corrupt country, we should still stop giving them aid.
This vile bigot Morgan Tsvangirai claims that his support of LGBT human rights has been taken ‘out of context’.
He still hates us.
Screw him and his failed country.
Mugabe will die soon and be replaced by the equally vile Tsvangirai.
Its interesting the news reports that have been made since Tsvangirai made his statement equating LGBT rights with human rights.
This article seems to reinforce Tsvangirai’s apparent new view (although other Zimbabwean ministers (admittedly from opposing parties) have the views one might expect to come from the Zimbabwe elete):
Whereas here, Tsvangerai appears less supportive of LGBT issues (although does not renounce the opinions he made recently):
and this one refers to misrepresentation but is that of Tsvangirais views or those the Justice minister makes misrepresenting the facts … unclear :
Thanks for sharing your research, Stu.
I am delighted to read the Prime Minister’s enlightened point of view and his availability to be interviewed by MP’s in Zimbabwe.
mmmm, not sure will make my mind up when I see action not talk.