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Gay reverend hits back at Scottish Catholic leaders

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  1. Dr Robin Guthrie 11 Oct 2011, 4:24pm

    Well said Rev.

    “the good influence of the whole Christian community”

    Nowadays I only see poison coming from this self obsessed cult.

    1. Clearly this Christian leader is a good influence.

      I agree the actions of many in the RC church (although not all members) and some in the CofS and others recently have been ignorant and repugnant.

      Evidence of good practice in terms of supporting equal marriage and being pro gay has also been evident recently.

      I find the use of the word cult when linked to a comment of “the whole Christian community” to be unnecessarily emotive and prejudiced.

      We need to condemn the likes of the RC Archbishop of Glasgow, encourage those within the RC church who are pro gay to condemn their leaders and their prejudice and support the likes of Rev Holdsworth and others who support LGBT rights with honesty and integrity. The use of the word cult hardly achieves any of these aims.

      1. Dr Robin Guthrie 11 Oct 2011, 5:02pm

        Cult – A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. – Dictionary.com

        1. This is indeed a definition of cult, but you risk being interpreted as though it is the following definition which is also from dictionary.com

          “Cult – A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.”

          Cult is a word predominantly chosen by atheists or non religious people seeking to aggravate those who are religious (in my experience). As a non religious person, I personally find such language infantile and unnecessary when the issues being discussed are of great significance.

          1. It may be time for atheists and agnostics to be more aggressive in affirming that faith is based on untestable propositions that are basically undemocratic, and sometimes a rude or derogatory word may break the spell of religious faith.

            Since 9/11, there is no longer any doubt that faith is a delusional view of the world, and it has no place in politics.

          2. @Jonpol

            Whilst I have sympathy in challenging the propositions of faith, I am also realistic … There will always be people who have faith – partly due to the untestable nature of it …

            Given that is the case, then alienating those who have faith who are pro gay by using derogatory words is no better than the derogatory words those who have faith (and are not pro gay) use against the LGBT communities

          3. @ Stu -

            I know an irenic attitude when I see one… and It is an admirable approach.

            It may even be effective, who knows?

          4. @Jonpol

            It may be irenic in approach, but not in substance – there is no Christian theology involved in my stance (as some view irenism) – merely an aim to find a peaceful approach that may involve some calm. I hope, one can be peaceable and non-religious.

            I think there is a real lack on integrity on the part of some religious people, clearly seen in the reaction of the Archbishop of Glasgow in his approach to the Scottish consultation on equal marriage, where anything but a reasonable, peaceable approach is taken.

            The LGBT communities need to demonstrate they have integrity and do not reduce themselves to the failures and irreverence of the worst aspects of those who are religious.

  2. Derek Williams 11 Oct 2011, 4:36pm

    I don’t see why any group, including Catholics, can’t speak their mind, even attempt to influence government policy, even if I don’t agree with them, so long as I can bring my humble influence to bear also.

    I certainly can’t see any gain for us in trying to stifle the bishops. In fact, the more the speak on this issue, the more irrelevant they make themselves, so they can speak all they like so far as I am concerned. It stimulates public debate, and gives us the forum we need in which to present science based data as compared with faith based belief.

    However the issue of marriage is civil, not religious. Catholics are not being asked to perform same sex marriages in their churches, nor are they being asked to make heterosexuals marry other heterosexuals or turn them into homosexuals by the same alchemy some believe we homosexuals can transmogrify into heterosexuals.

    The Catholic Church also condemns birth control, an admonition obeyed by very few of its faithful, and divorce.

    1. I agree. I think that, short of inciting violence, they should say anything they wish – like anyone else. And that they should get as much attention as people who say that we can’t have gay marriage because it will upset the pixies living under the toadstools in their gardens.

    2. There is absolutely no problem with Catholic Bishops espousing certain views and making them known and trying to influence public discourse…
      AS LONG AS anyone else is ALSO permitted to make every attempt to enter into a Catholic church and try and alter THEIR way of doing and press for change within THEIR organization.

      If the Catholic church wants government to stay out of its affairs, then it MUST stay out of government’s affairs.

    3. Derek,

      In general I would agree with you, my only concern is that these groups are speaking from a privileged position both in terms of their financial advantage (tax breaks not given to non religious lobbyists and groups) and from their privileged positional power due to preaching in churches and access to political representatives. This coupled to their elevated (falsely in my view) position of authority due to their assumed truthfulness and correctness because of their ‘faith’ gives them a disproportionate advantage which they have a duty to use with care – which they plainly do not and simply use it to further their own twisted agenda to try and coerce people sometimes with threats. It has not been unknown for the catholic church to threaten excommunication to those (particularly those in power) with excommunication in order to further it’s prejudices and political agenda.

  3. Good on him. However, this is a civic issue. For me, it’s outrageous that this should even need voting on. When did LGBT’s get the chance to vote on heterosexual marriage? Equal rights should be embedded into law without question.

  4. There shouldnt even be a consultation on same sex marriage. Not when it comes to equality.

    1. Indeed Robbie.

    2. There isnt a consultation on IF there should be equal marriage in England … its on HOW

      not sure the same can be said for the Scottish consultation …

      1. LBGT didn’t get a vote on how either

        1. LGBT people can engage in the consultation on how … as can others – what are you talking about?

      2. Stu – the SNP government’s consultation is on IF there should be same sex marriage. They have consistenly said all along that although they are tended towards it, no decision has been made and they want to hear all views before making a decision. I was disgusted last week when they went to great lengths to repeatedly say that no decision has been made when the Bishop of Paisley wrote his letter and was then given a personal meeting with Alex Salmond a few days later. I also understand that Nicola Sturgeon is to meet with Cardian O’Brien in the next couple of weeks to hear his concerns on same sex marrige.

  5. Father Dougal 11 Oct 2011, 7:00pm

    It’s good that he’s spoken out. The Vatican is totally out of touch and apparently increasingly thinks in terms of people it disagrees with as heretics. Marriage equality is now seen by them as HERESY! But we’re not all in your church!

  6. Father Ted 11 Oct 2011, 7:05pm

    Yes for some Christians it is a form of heresy, but certainly not for all, it’s really a doctrinal dispute and the legality is really none of their business.

  7. Father Jack 11 Oct 2011, 7:08pm

    Yes Ted, it really all is about heresy and imposing a doctrinal “truth” both on secular society, and on those denominations that quite like the idea of gay people marrying in their churches.

  8. Father Jock 11 Oct 2011, 7:12pm

    They’ll be burning us at the stake next…Ah, the good old days.

  9. Some time ago religion quietly re-branded itself as ‘faith’ in an attempt to make its out-of-date nonsense seem more modern and acceptable.

    Why does Pink News and so many of its correspondents always fall for this trick?

    Please call a spade a spade, it’s RELIGION, not faith.

    1. I respect faith, which is both personal and never attempts to influence; whereas, I have no respect nor time for religion, which continually attempts to recruit, influence and corrupt.

      Faith and religions are definitely separate: Faith is a personal journey; Religion is evil :(

      1. That tends to be my view too, John C

      2. Galadriel1010 12 Oct 2011, 11:21am

        Religion isn’t intrinsically evil, but the power that the organisation gains corrupts.

  10. Gob Bless him for fighting back, now if only more LGBT’s fought back for their rights we would all be free.

    1. Fighting in a responsible, honourable way with integrity though, I hope

  11. Cambodia Guesthouse 12 Oct 2011, 7:07am

    More protestations from the sky pixie brigade. Who gives a toss? Of course they can have their say, I just object to them thinking they have a ‘god given’? right to impose their twisted beliefs on everyone else who does not share their ‘faith’.

  12. billywingarten 12 Oct 2011, 9:28am

    Of course the church is opposed to gay marriage.

    it dug itself a hole long ago on this and many other issues.

    forgetting that once the people come around to what is right, the “faith will be broken. People will start to question. the house of cards will come tumbling down.

    My final comment – beware of the second “anything but Holy Inquistion”

    I bet the vatican is dusting off its torture machines left over from the 1st inquistion.

    And hopes to continue to use this issue to distract from its exposure as the

    “church of the endless hidden molestation of children – all over the world.”

    a couple links of the truth of the horror….

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/17/religion.childprotection (about letter from Vatican telling bishops to hide the molestation.

    1. I am uncomfortable with comments like this. While it is correct to intellectually challenge the Catholic philosophy, this sort of language about the “dusting off its torture machines” is the language of the old Rev Ian Paisley and his past followers.

  13. Miguel Sanchez 12 Oct 2011, 2:26pm

    I guess the UK hasn’t learned the true meaning of separation of church and state.

    That being said, “marriage” always has and always will be a religious term. What Scotland and all of the UK, for that matter, needs to do is allow anyone that has had a civil union all the rights granted to a couple that has been “married” in a church.

    One of the things I’ve seen is when a couple has a child or children and one of the parents gets ill or dies.

  14. i am nominally a roman catholic but have many views in opposition to its smug stance on so many issues.why not gay marriage? love cannot be defined by one group alone and to be honest the catholic church is in no position to be censorious about gay issues. please please do not think we all identify with the views of his daftness bishop devine (sic!). for those who have found companionship and love marriage is the obvious choice or have we lost our humanity and compassion on the road to catholic “perfection”?

  15. those stupid catholic bishop are ready to break everything around them just to make there point. So rude and arrogant of them. But what can we expect with 2000 years of arrogance and the pope they got.

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