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California removes surgery requirement for transgender birth certificates

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  1. No offence to anyone. But i personally think that people should only be able to change the sex on their birth certificates after they have had gender reasignment surgery.

    1. Thia Jones 11 Oct 2011, 6:45pm

      Why? Your gender identity is not dependant on what you have, or don’t have, between your legs – why do people keep trotting out this particular irrelevance? Why are people so obsessed with genitalia?
      And starting a comment with “no offence…” usually means you’re about to say something you know to be deeply offensive…

      1. I wouldn’t care what I had between my legs, so I don’t really understand why people feel they need to change gender. In a sense the desire to deny the gender we’re born with is the opposite of pride.

        1. I’m sorry that you don’t understand this issue, but surprised that you nonetheless seem more interested in putting forward uninformed views rather than going away and educating yourself some more. There are many excellent resources available on the web that provide information on gender dysphoria and help articulate trans experiences for the benefit of people such as yourself.

      2. Well that is pretty much what defines males and females whether you like it or not. How do you think gender is defined? perhaps you think we should choose it for ourselves then discard it when we get boreed with it?

        1. Sally Outen 12 Oct 2011, 4:40pm

          Leave us alone, troll. You are biologically and morally wrong.

          1. What do morals have to do with it. Which moral authority are you invoking for your assertion that I am morally wrong?

          2. Sally Outen 12 Oct 2011, 5:47pm

            Your constant promotion of flawed biological essentialist viewpoints helps to reinforce a kyriarchal structure that harms feminism, queer rights, and equalities as a whole. That’s all you’re getting from me – if you don’t understand what you’re being told, look it up. Educate yourself, troll. Stop baiting others to do it for you.

        2. Sarah Brown 25 Oct 2011, 4:48am

          Fascinating. When you meet someone on the street, do you ask to see their crotch before deciding whether to call them “he” or “she”?

          Do you get arrested a lot?

    2. CommanderThor 11 Oct 2011, 6:51pm

      No offence, but stop obsessing with other people’s genitals without their consent!

    3. Some people don’t feel the need to conform to what their body “should” look like. There are also so many options for surgery. At what stage would you deem someone elses genitals worthy enough of a letter on a piece of paper?

  2. Bash me all you want. I am only stating my personal opinion, which i am entitled to. I believe my view is shared by the majority of the British public. If you honestly think i said something “deeply offensive” then you honestly need to get out more. Nearly all countries that allow gender reassignment surgery only allowed people to change their gender legally after going through the surgery.

    1. There has to become a point at which someone can call themselves male or female legally.

      1. respecting others feelings 12 Oct 2011, 8:21am

        Robbie, I agree with you, there does have to be such a point.. The UK GRA doesn’t require surgery, so the point at which someone can be legally defined as a man or woman does NOT depend on surgery. The reason the UK took this approach is to recognise that surgery is not a feasible proposition for some, and is far more risky and intrusive for trans men than trans women. I presume California has taken the same view, that who we are exists in our brain and not between our legs.

        Let me know if you ever lose your ‘bits’ in a car crash though, and I’ll see if I can get you declassified according to your own special rules!!

        1. That is different and you know it. I just do not see the need for someone to call themselves by a new sex when they havent even had a sex change. By using that logic, that means i could call myself a woman tomrrow. All i would have to do would to be dress up as one. If they have had the surgery, then i completely understand why they should be classified as having a new gender. ,

          1. “By using that logic, that means i could call myself a woman tomrrow.”

            In what respect is this a problem? Apart from the fact that you presumably do not experience yourself as being a woman – in which case, why would you go to the trouble of changing your birth certificate in the first place?

          2. People transition physically long before surgery which for a lot of people only changes genitals or sometimes breasts as most of the changes are caused by trans people taking hormones.
            Do you really think someone who just looks like any other women but has a penis should still have a male birth certificate when would cause them large amounts of discrimination?

        2. Male and female brains are markedly different in form and usage, therefore it should not be sufficient to think you are the opposite to what your genitals scream at you. If a supposed man ‘claims’ to be a woman, he should submit to a brain examiination (at his own expense) to determine whether or not the brain is male or female. Fals e gender claims are testable and debunkable. No male to date has ever been known to have a female brain!

  3. I would like to be a horse. Do I need species reassignment surgeryor can I just assert that I am a horse and sue anyone that says I am not?

    1. Sally Outen 12 Oct 2011, 5:29pm

      Why dont you just go and stand in a field, and spare us all from your bigoted inanities.

      While you’re there, maybe you can take some time to think about why your ridiculous analogies don’t work.

      1. You are obviously an equinaphobic bigot
        Neigh problem!

  4. These comments have just shown me that the transgender community cannot take other people views on board, even if they aren’t really offensive. I can sit and have a debate with someone about their views on me being gay, but i don’t go and bash them and call them a bigot at a wim. They would have to be really offensive for me to say that.

  5. I regret something i just said a minute ago. I said that people in the transgender community cannot take criticism. What i meant to say is that some of them can’t. I didn’t mean to generalise. So my apologies. I would also like to point out that in general i have nothing against transgender people. I know its not a sexual fetish and i don’t think it is a mental health illness either.Although i know that WHO says it does. But other organisations say otherwise. As a minority myself being a gay Jew, i know what discrimination is. So i respect transexual people like other people and i actually defend them sometimes. I didn’t like the fact though that i was bashed because i gave my own opinion that people should only be classified as their new gender on their birth certificate only after surgery. I didn’t find that comment offensive. Infact i would say it was a liberal thing to say, as alot of people would say that transexuals shouldnt be allowed to change their gender at all. So as i am not an extremist with my opinions all i have to say is that you respect my right to say what i have to say. I

    1. Oh Robbie. Nobody called you a bigot – we simply deconstructed your arguments (and with considerable restraint, I’d have said). Nobody showed disrespect for your right to say what you said, even if we might have wished you’d made an effort to inform yourself properly about the issues involved before putting forward your views. Please respect our right to call you out on those views.

      “I didn’t find that comment offensive.”

      That’s irrelevant – *you* have no framework to decide what is or isn’t offensive to an underprivileged group you don’t belong to. If you take some time to learn more about trans people’s identities and experiences, you might gain some insight into why we feel offended by your views. In the meantime, I’d recommend that you have a read of this: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/ – it may help you to gain a new perspective on your latest comments.

      [cont...]

    2. Actually, for me, your position was objectionable not so much because it was offensive, but because it endorses a state of affairs that is actively harmful to trans people. Why not take some time to read up on the nature of gender, rather than relying on an over-simplistic understanding of human biology? Why not read up on gender dysphoria, and how a delayed or denied recognition of trans people’s identities can be acutely damaging to our mental health? Why not find out about the hurdles we have to overcome, and the levels of discrimination and violence we face when our identities are treated with institutionalised disrespect? Maybe you are more accepting in your attitudes towards trans people than, say, those who stigmatise trans identities and preach hatred towards us, but that’s hardly a good standard against which to measure yourself.

      [cont...]

    3. I doubt that anyone here thinks that you’re a terrible person. You’re coming from a position of ignorance, so it’s hardly surprising that you messed up. We all mess up from time to time, when we don’t notice our own privilege in our dealings with people from marginalized groups. The trick is to *listen* (accepting that any person who’s directly affected by what we’ve said will almost certainly know a lot more about it than we do), apologise, read up on the issue, and move on.

  6. So much prejudice from the gay community, some of which I believe is misogynist and particularly trans-mysogynist.
    So many of you guys want to ‘debate’ whether or not someones gender is genuine.
    I really think this is a gender thing in itself. Men debate. I don’t know why….it all just sounds like self aggrandisment and bull to me. Women get offended when someone says something against them and walk off with a poor opinion of the person making the imflammatory statements. That’s why I say those that demand debate are being mysogynist.
    Those that don’t accept trans women as women are trans-mysogynist. We know who we are…..your opinion doesn’t count. And it’s not our job to convince you.

  7. @ Robbie:

    I don’t think you are a bigot. But I do think you are a little misinformed on the risks of genital surgeries. I am a trans man and I have no wish to have risky, potentially disfiguring and deeply painful, expensive and repetitive surgeries just for a piece of paper. I am coming to terms with the genitals I have and doing my best to live with that. I should not have to go through such surgeries just for bureaucracy’s sake. Agreed hormones and some long-term proof of transition is necessary. A commitment to live in your true gender permanantly is neccessary. But not surgery. This is a step in the right direction for California.

  8. well, as a gay woman, i once got an very unpleasant surprise, at least for me. i had been dating a woman for awhile, and imagine my surprise when i found a penis when i put my hand in her under pants when we were getting intimate.

    you’d have thought at some time in the weeks we were “getting to know” each other, she might have mentioned that i might not find what i expected and make sure i was okay with that. but no, she didn’t have the grace or the good manners to do that.

    transpeople demand respect for being who they are – ok, no problem – like many people, i try to do my best – but how about transpeople respect who other people are and their preferences?

    in my case, it’s my preference not to encounter male genitals when i am being intimate. and i didn’t even get a chance to try and get used to the idea. i was lied to. and disrespected.

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