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European Parliament calls for end of classifying transgender people as mentally ill

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  1. Muir Dragonne 29 Sep 2011, 2:19pm

    The World Professional Association for Transgender Health in their 7th version of The Standards of Care have taken GID completely out and have focused on Gender Dysphoria. Definitely a step forward, I think.

    1. WPATH actually widened there definition of whom they consider mentally ill in the most recent revision. See:
      https://www.facebook.com/notes/organisation-intersex-international-australia-limited/arrogance-hypocrisy-the-new-wpath-standards-of-care-version-7/262882070418343

      Gender dysphoria is a wider term than gender identity disorder. Before WPATH used gender disorder they used transsexualism. At each revision WPATH has widened the number of groups covered under its remit.

      WPATH now considers people with genetic and developmental problems to be mentally ill.

    2. billywingart 3 Oct 2011, 10:42pm

      About time we put religious hatred on the mental problems list.

      That would be a real step in the right direction – we need to build international institutions to combat religious extremism, be it catholic, christian , Islamic etc.

  2. There is a BIG difference between transsexualism and homosexuality though. One isnt inherently harmful (if you take away the bigots), the other certainly is.

    The best fix we have for transsexualism is invasive and fairly drastic surgery.

    I dont think its helpful to label transsexuals as wrong or anything bad, but it IS a problem of the mind. The body is only following its genes.

    1. Julian Morrison 29 Sep 2011, 3:42pm

      The mind is the person. It’s morally foul to decree that the person should be in effect replaced with a new person so that their body needn’t change. Only a society that put bodies and body-linked roles above human selves would consider such a thing. Thank goodness our society is gradually learning not to. You should learn not to, as well.

      1. The mind is also following the genes, it’s just the organisation of the body occurs in the first trimester of development whereas brain development occurs in the final trimester. There have been found to be marked differences between biological males for example and trans-women. In blind studies researchers examining the brains of trans women and trans men reported the brains to be of the gender that the individual identified as, not that of the body into which they were born. This includes both those on hormone therapies and those not. So it’s not as simple as saying the body is just following the genes, the brain is doing this as well.

      2. Thats over dramatic. Its a moot point anyway since we have no ‘cure’ for the brain. Is treatment for bi-polar disorder any different? That changes your personality as well. Transsexualism is just as destructive as bi-polar disorder, its disingenuous to claim otherwise.

        Body surgery is FAR from a fully effective treatment.

        1. Julian Morrison 30 Sep 2011, 12:00am

          Transition (which goes beyond just body surgery) successfully eliminates gender dysphoria in the overwhelming majority of cases. You are simply wrong.

        2. Are you speaking personal experience??

      3. The mind isnt 100% of the person. Thats like claiming we have ‘souls’ and the other non scientific rubbish that floats around out there.

        1. The mind is, however, the bit that crucially handles the consent.

        2. Julian Morrison 29 Sep 2011, 11:58pm

          The “ship of Theseus” argument shows what is and isn’t the person. Suppose I have my left arm transplanted from a donor or a stem cell replacement am I me? How about my right kidney? Yes and still yes for any body part except the brain. If my brain is removed, that’s me being removed. If by a medical miracle someone else’s brain is put in place, that’s them wearing the body that used to be mine, it isn’t me. The brain IS the informational soul embodied as a neuron computational process.

      4. “It’s morally foul”

        As yes, when you have no facts what so ever, use the term “moral”.

    2. Rovex wrote
      “There is a BIG difference between transsexualism and homosexuality though. One isnt inherently harmful (if you take away the bigots), the other certainly is.”
      .
      In what way is homosexuality harmful?

      1. Or were you suggesting that Transsexualisms is harmful, perhaps I misunderstood you!
        .
        Apologise

    3. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 8:30am

      Just because You don’t accept it or understand it….. A very narrow minded comment.

    4. Its not normal and they should be discouraged and have counciling.

      1. Define ‘Normal’ please

      2. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:46pm

        Your not normal Mathew, you should be discouraged and have counciling.

  3. Rovex, there are studies that indicate that there are physiological differences in the brains of transsexuals. I get what you are saying; brain = mind but equally, the brain is a part of the body and its structure is partly based on genetics. Similarly, a brain tumour is not labelled a mental illness although it can affect a person’s mental processes.

    1. Which studies? Can you provide references?

      1. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 6:33pm

        Try this:

        A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality
        http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

        Hopkins Research Shows Nature, Not Nurture, Determines Gender
        http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press/2000/MAY/000512.HTM

        Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids
        http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.abstract

        Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
        http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

        Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806

        A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961?dopt=Abstract

        1. These studies change nothing. It still comes down to brain and therefore ultimately mind v. body. Which is actually ‘wrong? Is a cure for the brain better than surgery and hormones, which frankly dont do a complete job.

          Pretty much all mental ilnesses have physiological causes. Changing transsexualism to something else is just political correctness.

          1. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 6:58pm

            No its being truthful about the natural variations within species and genders. Homo erectus only developed into homo sapiens through natural variance in body and mind over 200,000 years without that we would still be the same as our closes relatives the hominids. That variance allowed our aquatic ancestors to to breath air and develop legs instead of flippers. That evolutionary branch allowed to genders to be developed instead of one asexual creature then the development of eggs carried within the body instead of hard or soft eggs nested outside the body.

            If I was to us the model you are pushing, we would all have mental illnesses because we are not single celled beings floating in the oceans.

          2. If the references change nothing, why did you ask for them?

          3. SOME mental illnesses MAY have a physiological cause. It’s mostly hypothesis at the moment. There are some definate genetic links that can be observed in dizygotic twin studies but physiology is only half the story.

        2. Fallen Angel 29 Sep 2011, 9:18pm

          Yep.. and all of those, fairly well known studies, are more or less shredded to pieces here.. (Only for those of a certain minimum level of intelligence and to much time on their hands)

          http://sillyolme.wordpress.com/

          1. …which in turn seems to be leaning on certain assumptions that are helpfully challenged here:

            http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244/ref=pd_sim_b1

            Also, having rejected these studies for the reason that the writer is unconvinced by their experimental design, she then goes on to espouse certain ideas that only have a theoretical basis within psychiatry, and for which there is no grounded evidential basis.

            However we interpret these studies, I’m not sure that it’s especially helpful to spend too much time deliberating on the root causes of gender dysphoria, when the issue is surely how best to look after people whose sense of identity has in part been shaped through prolonged exposure to a complex experience of gender, emergent from such dysphoria. The focus needs to be on what is best for each person on an individual basis, rather than on theoretical cures predicted on the basis of non-robust interpretations of the available data.

          2. Fallen Angel 30 Sep 2011, 4:56am

            Sally wrote:

            “she then goes on to espouse certain ideas that ->only have a theoretical basisno grounded evidential basis.<-"

            Oh please… You can't possibly be serious!? That almost made me laugh. Where have you been?

            "However we interpret these studies, I’m not sure that it’s especially helpful to spend too much time deliberating on the root causes of gender dysphoria, when the issue is surely how best to look after people whose sense of identity has in part been shaped through prolonged exposure to a complex experience of gender"

            On this I agree wholeheartedly. People not being truthful still nags me though..

          3. “Oh please… You can’t possibly be serious!? That almost made me laugh. Where have you been?”

            What sort of argument is that?

          4. “Shredded” by someone who uses Blanchard as a credible researcher?

            Blanchard is noncredible, and his flunky, Lawrence, was barred from practicing medicine after raping a patient.

        3. Thank you Helen. I work in psychiatry and am really interested in this area so will have a read of these. :)

    2. Still better to fix the specific part of the brain than the 99.9% of the rest of the body.

      I expected to get voted down, these days the truth isnt allowed if its not PC. There are transsexuals that agree with me, it doesnt mean they feel any different though.

      1. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 6:44pm

        If they cant even fix someone from being left handed (controlled from via the brain) why do you think it is possible to fix the natural variance that makes someone transsexual?

        Whit we can fix is societies learned bi gendered view, science accept 5 different genders exist in nature so why are we not teaching it? Maybe its because if we taught people the truth about gender the lie that is religion would be finished. Religion says god the invisible sky fairy made only Adam and Eve, yet 1 in 400 people are born with a intersexed condition such as 46 XXY.

        1. Trouble is you are emoting the issue to much. Im on your side, really, im not anti-trans, they deserve all the respect and rights that anyone else does, but the fact is transsexualism is a disease. Surgery only treats the symptoms, it doesnt treat the cause. Your body isnt the cause of the problem, your mind is.

          There could be 48 genders for all i care, the problem isnt the variation in the genders, its the fact that transsexualism is harmful to the individual.

          1. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 9:00pm

            My gender dysphoria is not harmful its the societal expectation of gender conformity that messed me up. If that four year old was just allowed by society to be a girl and allowed to have my conformation surgery when I felt ready for it the thirty odd years of hell and breakdown would never of happened.

            It was society that messed with my mental health not who I am. I have always been secure in my gender its society that has the problem with it.

          2. Perhaps i need to clarify what i mean by body. I mean your bodys gender, its sexual characteristics. I realize the cause of transsexualism is physical, but there is still a conflict between the mind, influenced by the brain, and the rest of the body.

          3. Helen, by harmful, i mean if you were not given surgery you would have had issues later, whether people accepted you or not. The harm is your body identity, not other peoples reaction to you. Being gay, straight, male or female doesn’t have that inherent harm .

          4. So I’m diseased?

            Well at this stage in my life I’d rather be diseased and true to myself than miserable trying to conform to your biased, unhelpful and Orwellian view of gender.

            I will give you credit that you don’t know what you are talking about since you’re not transsexual, but ignorance does not excuse your attitude towards us or the fact that you are trying to invalidate our existence. How very dare you.

            I am happy now and I won’t accept that I can be cured by treating a brain ‘disease’ you seem to want to invent. Trassexualism is something I have suffered from all my life and I have explored the psychiatric options for decades trying to shoehorn myself into your idea of normal.

            Shock, horror. I am normal. And I will do whatever it takes to maintain this happiness I have finally found.

            I am not mentally ill. I am biologically retarded. Unlike you. You’re just mean-spirited. And probably lonely.

          5. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 1:15pm

            Your ignorance, Rovex must be bliss… must make you very lonely!

          6. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 1:16pm

            Thank God, society is better than you, less ignorant and more understanding of the realities of the world.

      2. Surely it’s better to follow the treatment path with the greatest chance of success?

        1. I agree, but if there was a pill available that ‘cured’ you by making you want to be the gender your body demonstrates, how many transsexuals would actually take it, rather than go down the surgery route to cosmetically alter the body.?

          1. How does your body demonstrate a gender? I’d be interested to hear how you define gender and sex, and whether you consider them to be perfect synonyms.

          2. This is the problem the word ‘gender’ now means pretty much anything you care it to mean. Your bodys gender is what it appears to be, your minds maybe something else.

          3. Ah, you see, this is the first time I’ve heard someone talking about a *body’s* gender. As a biologist, I’ve become accustomed to hearing “sex” used to describe a loose raft of genetic and physiological concepts, while “gender” is applied to certain psychological and sociological aspects of a person’s identity (and also to other sociological constructs, such as grammar). I feel that this is a useful deconstruction to consider using. I’d also use the term “gender identity” to describe the sense of self that determines how a person receives and processes the gender-dependent cues that society provides. Therefore, within this conceptual framework, gender identity determines a person’s gender.

          4. In continuation…

            My suspicion is that a process that altered a person’s gender identity would not entirely solve the problem, because that person would still have an embedded pattern of gendered ideas helping to define them as a person. Their identity would still exhibit artifacts they had received via the gender construct of the society they inhabited (such artifacts might include responses to gender-dependent social pressures, or internalisation of gendered oppression or privilege). In such a situation, the process you suggest might only serve to increase that person’s sense of gender dysphoria, in the short term or the long term.

            This is purely theoretical, based on current feminist theory about the meaning of gender – but it’s no more speculative than the idea that such a hypothetical wonder-treatment could single-handedly solve trans peoples’ problems.

          5. That’s like saying, if there was a pill to cure homosexuality, how many would actually take it. Not many I would think
            Yet homosexuality is rightly no longer classed as a mental illness, yet you want to deny the same rights to transsexuals. This to my mind is far more trans-phobic than any homophobia exhibited by the ill educated yobs on our streets. Mind you, you could always take up a new cause and petition for frontal lobotomies of these individuals.

      3. What “truth” are you talking about, exactly? And where does your 99.9% figure come from? And do you really expect the hackneyed old “it’s all just political correctness” non-argument to improve your case?

        1. Well assuming transsexualism is caused by a small area of the brain then the rest of the body is about 99.9%.

          1. But do any trans people ever really change 99.9% of their bodies? If you’re talking about surgeries, then I’d have to ask which surgeries affect 99.9% of a person’s body. And if you mean hormonal changes, surely such hormones are all over the place, but only effecting changes in certain key tissues. And I’d imagine that a lot of people would consider hormones less invasive than some currently hypothetical procedure designed to permanently alter their sense of self.

          2. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 1:20pm

            It’s so sad that your mind is so limited to reality.

      4. SomeStrangeNerdType 29 Sep 2011, 8:32pm

        What the? You suggest brain surgery like it’s removing some sort of tumour, we’re talking a perfectly healthy brain with the structure of a male or female brain. And yes there are some structural differences.

      5. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 1:13pm

        Coming from someone that only ever assumes they know best….. Laughable.

      6. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:25pm

        Umm how about if you change the brain of a transsexual to make them not, you are murdering that personality. Perhaps that’s why it isn’t done!?

  4. concernedresidentE3 29 Sep 2011, 4:54pm

    remember that there is pressure on around Europe to classify gender reassignment as elective. This has fundamental implications for reimbursement from health insurance or support by the NHS. If they stop classifying it as psychiatric it can ONLY be elective. This would mean that transsexuals could be expected to pay for their surgery in greater numbers following this verdict.

    1. lol u crazy. Of course there will be help for transsexuals.
      How did you figure we have to pay anything, being Transsexual is not ELECTIVE even if the WHO takes it from it’s directory. The NHS will still have to pay for HRT etc etc as it will be classed as a birth defect or something else and we still need help, just as a person who smokes doesn’t ELECT to have cancer or some other smoking related illness the NHS still helps.

      Your a moron, seriously, you are.

      1. concernedresidentE3 29 Sep 2011, 5:48pm

        I am not a moron, I am just being realistic. Insurance companies across Europe have been historically reluctant to reimburse gender reassignment. If it is totally demedicalised in the EU I would guess they will be even more reluctant. That unfortunately is reality.

    2. Julian Morrison 29 Sep 2011, 6:05pm

      The WPATH approach is: transsexual, transgender and genderqueer identity is not medical. However “gender dysphoria” is medical.

      1. concernedresidentE3 30 Sep 2011, 11:31am

        that seems fair. Am I right in assuming a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” would be necessary in order to qualify for reassignment surgery? And can you clarify whether the EU has called for the derecognition of “gender dysphoria”?

        1. Julian Morrison 30 Sep 2011, 11:14pm

          Yes. No.

          Since “gender dysphoria” is nothing more than the desire for a body and/or social role that fits your mental gender, wanting surgery is pretty much a diagnosis of needing it.

          1. It is actually distress from not having said body/social role. It isn’t like people can just say “hey, that’d be neat.”

  5. The argument seems to be that transgendered persons are entitled to medical treatment but whatever condition is being treated it isn’t a mental health condition because that would be ‘stigmatising’.

    Following that logic we should reclassify all mental health conditions as non-mental health conditions to avoid the stigma.

    Whilst I fully accept that there is stigma associated with mental health conditions one doesn’t successfully deal with it by denying the existence of mental illness.

    1. Julian Morrison 29 Sep 2011, 6:06pm

      Trans* identities are not a mental illness.

      1. If not a mental illness what is it?

        1. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:43pm

          A female brain in a male body

          1. Would you describe that as an illness and if so what sort?

    2. Agreed. Id really like to see some scientific evidence that demonstrates transsexualism isn’t a mental disorder. This is not about making moral judgements about peoples lives or about human equality; it is about providing appropriate support for people that need healthcare.

      1. Exactly my thoughts. Im not anti-trans, but i feel changing the body is only done because we cant do anything else to help right now.

        1. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:51pm

          change the brain, change the personality? that murders the person. think.

      2. Trouble is you can’t prove something isn’t a disorder. Especially as it’s classed as a disorder only because they guys in white coats say so. Just like they used to class being gay as a disorder but now don’t.
        The evidence though is that apart from depression and substance abuse problems caused by the negative fallout from being transexual in the first place there is a low incidence of other psychological pathologies. Once the appropriate ‘changes’ in physiology have been made most I know go on with life without further psychological issues only being negatively affected by elements of society who seem to gain pleasure from victimising them. Even then most trans peoples resiliance in the face of victimisation is well above normal for the population.

        1. If transexuality is not a disorder then it doesn’t need treating. The fact that surgical treatment has such a ‘success rate’ would tend to suggest that transexuality is a disorder and can benefit from treatment. I know of no evidence that homosexuality benefits from treatment.

      3. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:53pm

        you first need evidence that it IS a mental illness, and not just a female or male brain in a wrong gendered body.

  6. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 7:12pm

    Transsexuallity is a neurological condition caused by hormone unbalance in the mother during the second trimester of pregnancy while the hypothalamus is developing its gender. The preoptic nucleus of the hypothalamus is twice as large in males as in females however studies of male to female and female to male brains show they posses preoptic nucleus of the hypothalamus of the opposite sex compared to birth sex characteristics.

    It is not a mental illness its a neurological condition maybe you should learn the difference between the two.

    1. Thats disingenuous again. The hypothalamus is not ‘developing its gender’ it is whatever its genes say it is, what happens to it simply changes its behavior.. It would still be better to fix it than adjust the rest of the body.

      What i find irritating ius the ‘im in the wrong body’ statement. No you are NOT, you simply have a congenital disorder of the hypothalamus, if thats what actually causes it (rather than just being a symptom in itself).

      1. Surely “what’s best” is what each person consents to on an individual basis. Perhaps you would rather alter your brain to change what gender you experience yourself as being (if and when such treatment became available), but I’d imagine many other trans people would be appalled at the idea, and would rather opt to retain their current sense of self while working out what, if anything, they need to do to feel comfortable with their bodies. Do you think that there would be room for both approaches?

      2. HelenWilson 29 Sep 2011, 9:30pm

        I think you are getting confused this has nothing to do with genes. A simple interaction happens to produce a male brain and it involves the mother producing enough androgen to masculinise the brain in the second trimester of pregnancy. Clearly this is not a genetic issue or we would have whole families of transsexual children and a family history of transsexualism. This is not the case so thefore we must rule out a genetic component.

        Anyway I dont want this discussion to bring me down so I’ll stop my contribution at this.

      3. SomeStrangeNerdType 29 Sep 2011, 9:44pm

        Hmm brain surgery…Or hormones and surgery to help one feel more comfortable….

        Hmmmm….*thinks about this one*

        Which one is most dangerous?

        BRAIN SURGERY. Especially if you’re gonna be removing part of the hypothalamus or something, do you know how dangerous that kind of surgery is? I think probably not.

        Why operate on a perfectly healthy hypothalamus. It’s healthy but there is the body that doesn’t align to it.

        If someone needs surgery on the hypothalamus for life threatening for example a tumour, that person will more than likely have undesirable long term (Life long) consequences. Leave that kinda surgery for the folk that need it to save their life, don’t ruin a trans persons life even more so giving them an even more dangerous surgery! Transsexualism is harmful? No people like you, thinking brain surgery is the perfect answer are the harmful people.

        1. So, am I mentally ill because I am not pretty/handsome enough to satisfy some folks? In which case lots and lots of cosmetic surgery is surely the answer.
          Or, I am mentally ill because Rovex and co claim to have some kind of priveliged insight into my mind and body? If that is the case then it is clearly them that need the brain surgery as I don’t see why I should change to suit them.

      4. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 8:36am

        I think it’s very sad that lack of knowledge makes you a very intolerant bigot.

      5. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:59pm

        coming from the other direction 42 corpses cut up showed a female hypothalmus in a male body in transsexuals. like it or not that is the truth. your opinions, rubbish and all the rest of it are irrelevant.

    2. Neurological differences have been found in many mental illnesses, the presence of demonstrable neurological differences does not make it not a mental illness.

      1. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 11:05pm

        and having a female brain in a male body doesn’t make you mentally ill either, a neurologically feminine brain is not a mentally ill one.

  7. Transexuality exists, it’s a real. Why it happens, we don’t know.
    According to the NHS they think it is down to genetic and hormonal factors.

    I myself am Transsexual I also have two young Autistic children. I went to see a brain surgeon, this is the norm when you have autistic kids as they have MRI scans and other various tests etc etc.

    Whilst talking to him I asked about transsexuality and he said ” We don’t know why it happens, but we do know the brain structure is different and similar to the sex they feel they are. We think it is genetic and hormonal.”

    So we know we are not deluded, we know we are not mentally ill, we are not diseased, but we are BORN this way. We are not freaks, sexual deviants or anything else. We are simply women/men born with the wrong bodies.

    1. Fallen Angel 30 Sep 2011, 3:13am

      It is quite tiresome by now how trans activists always seems to take a little bit what is scientifically know thats servers their personal agendas, while leaving out the parts that is absolutely vital for correct understanding of the data. First off, theories of genes and hormonal influences thus far apply on the very rare transkid who were obviously, undeniably and unacceptably (by society standards) feminine from a very early childhood, they always transition young and are always sexually attracted to the same biological sex. Theories of hormones and genes really has nothing to do at all with the late transitioner.. who always seem to come from fairly typical hetero/cis normative masculine background, for those psychological explanations still very much applies. It is however not the same as saying you are deviants or freaks, that is you yourself assuming that is the case, in the absence of a biological explanation.

      1. I’m just quoting what a brain surgeon told me when I was taking my kids for tests. That is all, take what you want from that, but I’d take his word over yours for sure. If you are a brain surgeon or a biochemist or geneticist then please do contribute, if you can prove or disprove it.

        I was merely quoting what a brain surgeon told me, I have no reason to doubt him. Why do you?

      2. The Blanchard typology is by no means “confirmed” science. It relies on selective use of the available studies, leaning most heavily on early studies that may be criticised for poor experimental design, small sample sizes, high potential sample bias, questionable analysis and a rather lax attitude towards statistical significance.

        I’d like to state that I don’t feel threatened by the Blanchard typology. If it were proven to be useful, I could sit back comfortably in the understanding that the “homosexual transsexual” type fits me personally quite snugly. As it is, I just feel profoundly unconvinced as a scientist.

      3. I’m sorry but most T people know at an early their true gender identity.Many late transitioning people don’t understand why they feel the way they do and they try to conform to their ostensible anatomical sex :because they either believe that overtime they will grow out of it,or because of societal pressure,financial or medical considerations.

      4. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 10:31pm

        Wrong, the only evidence available quite strongly shows the BSTc of transsexuals is femized. ALL transsexuals, See Free University Amsterdam research.

  8. Thank God, it about time.

  9. “The European Parliament calls on the Commission and the World Health Organization to withdraw gender identity disorders from the list of mental and behavioral disorders, and ensure a non-pathologizing reclassification in the negotiations on the 11th version of the International Classification of Diseases.”

    Another momentous step in the right direction.

  10. So, the anti-trans are arguing that it is a mental condition as they cannot accommodate the accepted theories and would like to see our brains operated on. Just be careful what you wish for next, they will be tinkering with gay people and assuming if you can ‘fix’ transgendered people this way, then you should be able to re-orientate gay’s minds to the ‘norm’ that you so want us to be.
    ….. and just to upset Fallen Angel, I am transsexual (F2M), I have always known myself to be so (although obviously I couldn’t put a tag on it when I was just 5). I was a late transitioner (aged 30) yet I have always fancied men, but because of my father’s attitudes towards Trans people ( I remember vividly to this day his cruel remarks and jokes when the Christine Jorgensen story swept around the world) and gays, I suppressed my natural feelings so as not to lose the love of my parents and struggled for years to try and make myself male and conform to that stereotype.
    (cont)

    1. (continued)
      After episodes of deep depression and a suicide attempt in my late twenties, I realised that I wanted to live and started on the long (and oft times painful) journey to equalise my mind and body, thankfully with the help of more forward looking medical practitioners. and I am at peace with myself and my sexuality.
      To be honest I care not one jot whether it is neurological or mental, all I do know is that for the majority of my life now, I have been able to live a happy and contented existence, with no imbalance between my body and my mind, with no more depression and absolutely no thoughts of suicide.

      1. Thanks for this, carol_s, this is really good news.

        1. You’re welcome Jonpol
          I think we have to delve deeper into late transitioners. It must be fairly obvious to even Fallen Angel and Rovex that late transitioners were born at a time when very little was known about transsexualism and any information was sensationalised by the media. Their parents were probably even more closed minded about these things than parents of young children today. For reasons such as this people tended to suppress their own conviction about their gender and tried (mainly in vain) to make a go of it.
          I’m not saying it is easier for children today, but most young people (at least those that I know) have their own computers and can use the internet if they are driven to find out more about their feelings and, with today’s society generally being more tolerant, can broach the subject with their parents without the fear of losing their love. I myself was institutionalised at the age of seven because I refused to eat, I was so unhappy about myself – cont

          1. (Continuation)
            but despite all of this I still could not tell my parents because of my own fear that they would reject me.
            So, in future I expect that there will be more and more early transitioners.

      2. Ooops – got that one the wrong way round, I’m a M2F lol

    2. Another Hannah 2 Oct 2011, 11:01pm

      knife to cut brain = different person = murder of original person

  11. I see Matthew the fool has to get his little bigot dig in…. what a brave little man you are, Matthew.

  12. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 8:27am

    It’s about bloomin time. Treat people with respect.

    Mind you notice how these people treat mental health and think it’s acceptable.

    Another curse of religion and it’s bigotted friends.

    1. Spanner1960 30 Sep 2011, 8:56am

      This is the same organisation that you were praising to the skies about blood donations only a week ago.

      1. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 1:27pm

        Don’t remember praising Any organisation full stop, let alone ‘to the skies’. I have never mentioned this organisation.

        I remember condemning attitudes such as your in the NI heath minister but when did I speak about what you blabbing on about?

        Me think you got this one wrong Spanner… confused me thinks… not surprised really.

        You keep trying but repeatedly fail… another try?

        1. Spanner1960 1 Oct 2011, 1:39am

          How about this one?

          Jock S. Trap 6 days ago
          “Actually Spanner.. I’ve come to see that your irrational fears and scaremongering is nothing to do with the LGBT community but everything to do with your irration fear and mistrust of the Health services”

          1. Jock S. Trap 1 Oct 2011, 11:48am

            And that has to do with this “same organisation that you were praising to the skies” how exactly? I was talking about your mistrust of the NHS blood donations. What were you on about? Do you even know?

            Very weak so far do try again dear, LOL!!

          2. Jock S. Trap 1 Oct 2011, 11:49am

            Never mind deary!!

  13. Jock S. Trap 30 Sep 2011, 8:34am

    Your so wrong but look at the way you treat mentally ill patients thinking it’s acceptable to abuse them.

    It’s so sad you only put comment for a reaction nothing more. So immature.

  14. It’s pitiful to see so many gay,anti trans bigots. I remember going out in gay scene in london with my beautiful transgendered friends and how so many inadequate gay men were soo hostile, projecting their insecurities about their own or lack of assertive masculinity on to others, who were competent in defining their gender.

    1. Spanner1960 1 Oct 2011, 1:42am

      Actually, I for one have found the situation quite the opposite.
      I have no problem with trans people, but it’s like walking on eggshells with you lot, say the wrong thing and you get one major strop and the sharp end of a stillie.
      Chip. Shoulder. Lose it.

      1. Oh dear, yes – all these marginalised people are just so oversensitive, aren’t they?

        http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#sensitive

      2. Jock S. Trap 1 Oct 2011, 11:51am

        I think people can stop taking you seriously when you have to use the phrase “with you lot” in your comments.

      3. Don’t be so silly, most of us are fairly shy, retiring people. The only time a transgendered person is likely to have a hissy strop is if you are insensitive enough to use masculine pronouns or adjectives to us. So, if you were being a smart alec and wanted to show how skilful you are at at recognising us and used this way to demonstrate it, then you deserve all the strops coming your way.
        Other than that, please provide examples of particular instances.

        1. No, I didn’t think you could, You’ve had well over a day to dream up one itsy-bitsy example of an undeserved strop and you have failed to provide one. So we must all now presume that it was you who provoked the strop in the first place.

        2. I’m transgendered and am more comfortable with masculine pronouns than female ones. Not all trans folks are MtF. Better to say that we prefer it when you get our gender right.

          1. Yes, sorry Mallin, perhaps I should have said “the correct” instead of “masculine”. My apologies.

      4. Sounds like a hit a very tiny nerve with my comment. You obviously are one of the insecure types i was referring. “walking on eggshells with you lot” i am a gay man , so i’ll assume you are homophobic as well as transphobic.

  15. Funny how a mental disorder can be fixed with surgery

    1. Cancer is a disorder of cellular genetics affecting the cell cycle, it can be cured by surgery.

  16. I think this is great. It’s about damn time! I do not consider transgendered people to be mentally-ill. No their physical gender and the gender they feel they are don’t match up but hormones and surgery can take care of that and end the conflict.

    I am really sad to see GLBTs engaging in transphobia, when we (rightly I think) give the het community a bad time for the homophobia of some of them. Transgenders are the “T” in GLBT and thus are art of our community.

  17. Blimey!! I didn’t know that one! I shocked and yet not as few things suprise me to be honest. I’m more shocked that I didn’t know about it!!! Thank god they wish to change this!!

  18. The change of moving Transsexualism from an F64 code (mental illness) to a new Z code (reason for encountering medical services) does not make treatment cosmetic in most cases.

    The difference is that in the old way a transman gets mastectomy because SHE is mentally ill under the F64 code.

    In the new way SHE is changed to male under the Z code and then (now a male) HE gets mastectomy because HIS breasts are too large (for a man) under an N code (N62).

    Now breast surgery because of improper breasts, instead of breast surgery because of a deviant mind, what an improvement!

  19. A person’s brain is more important, complex, and fundamental to their personhood than their genital tract. This isn’t difficult people.

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