Totally despictable. It’s time for harsher sentences to reflect the crime to show this behaviour is totally unacceptable.
People should carry pepper spray with them.
It’s illegal but who cares.
Better an injured bigot than a dead gay person.
a guy i know in newcastle has a hand tazer! equally illegal, but i agree whole heartedly- rather some tazed chavs than a dead gay!
yes… pepper spray would do it.
You can get deafening alarms that are legal to carry. Better than ending up in prison.
Very true and I think they would scare most off in fear of on lookers… hopefully.
Since the attack occured in the Gay quarter of Edinburgh, I think we really need to seriously think about private security, and CCTV to protect our people and business in all UK cities
It is illegal to carry pepper spray, and breaking the law is not the right way to fight hate crime – its lowering ourselves to the level of those who hate LGBT people.
Those who are so unwise to take weapons onto the street have to take responsibility for what happens to them or by them. That includes the custodial sentence for possession of (or use of) an illegal weapon.
We need to put pressure on both those who seek to carry out acts of hatred and the police to investigate them. All police services could be better (although Lothian and Borders do have a reasonable reputation for dealing with hate related matters). If we consistently report every crime that we perceive as hate related then police have no excuse to claim they were unaware and the increased volume (as a number are not currently reported) may cause the police to review resources allocated to hate crimes.
You can’t fight hate crime if you are in prison because you had a firearm (pepper spray is seen as one in law).
With the increase of hate crimes against the LGBT community, perhaps we can obtain permits to carry a tube of pepper spray as a means of defense.
You cannot be sure that in a tussle your pepper spray or taser will not be wrested off you, and you might be on the receiving end, AND get prosecuted for carrying an unauthorised weapon.
mmm… I know, I know… and we can be killed either way.
A stream of pepper spray can hit a target 6 feet away if not more, with practice.
Also, laws are there to protect us, aren’t they? I would speak to an officer about it, at least.
But then, I wouldn’t want to start a pepper spray war on city streets.
Do you have a better idea?
Also Jonpol, having used CS spray on several people when I was a police officer, I can imagine whether or not you had the cannister wrestled from you (which is a very real risk) that many innocent members of the public could also be contaminated as it has to be used only in certain wind conditions with care
A stream of CS incapacitant at 6 feet can hit numerous others or blow back and incapacitate you and render you subject to a more violent assault due to your incapacitation
There is no such thing in any of the UK jurisdictions as a permit to carry pepper spray. It is a prohibited weapon – authorised only for police.
The next thing we will be hearing is the crazy American concept of the right to bear arms … its not a solution …
I agree Stu, totally but you can’t blame people for wanting to protect themselves. I agree it is unwise to carry any weapon but as the saying goes there’s never a policeman around when you need one and why should people have to go through an attack with the hope the police will act after the event?
As I said I think a personal alarm may help if people got into the habit of taking one with them as the problem with weapons is they usually result in a much worse situation, very often for the victim trying to protect themselves.
The argument about there never being a police officer there is redundant to an extent … there has never and will never be a society that has so many police officers that they are and could be where every crime is committed – and not would I want a regime that had so many police officers.
I understand the motivation for wanting to have “self defence”, but its a false logic. Not only can many things go wrong (even if people had reputable training) but they can up in the wrong hands (all police CS is currently locked away in registered stores when not being carried by an on duty officer) to prevent this happening. Also, if we give in to this logic, the next suggestion is knives or firearms. Neither is sensible or a solution (we just need to look to other countries to see the failures with firearms being freely available, or to our own with those who illegitimately choose to carry knives).
Personal attack alarms are a good idea. An even better idea is tackling causes of hate crime
Yeah I think you miss my point, Stu. My point is many will want to act rather than wait for an officer, rightly or wrongly. I’m not on about having ‘so many police officers’. It’s a common phrase bit like no buses and then 3 turn up at once. You seem to have turned a common phrase into some kind of serious regime change, lighten up hon! :)
The rest is basically you agreeing with what I said but on different levels, however if someone in the middle of being beating up I’m think ‘tackling the causes’ are the last thing on ones mind.
Still have to say though these attacks are still rare and it’s only because the media only pick up on these attacks, again rightly or wrongly, that puts fears into people., usually unnecessarily.
I have never had a criminal record, nor have I been attacked or beaten up by culprits like these.
Still, the injustice of this incident infuriates me primarily because it threatens our right to move around at will and in public.
Underlying this criminal activity are the vestiges of Leviticus more or less insidiously infiltrating the hearts of mindless hoodlums, just as Sharia is doing in the East.
Of course there may be more to this story than meets the eye, but the incident is reported here in such a way as to imply that the victim, who probably does engage in privater behavior that harms no one, is innocent.
@Jock S Trap
I kind of agree with most you say, although in terms of the temptation (legitimately) to act, whether the actions are themselves legitimate will depend on what the person does in response to the attack.
I would hope they can rely on the police to act, sometimes they can, but unfortunately there is a perception (fed by some peoples experiences) that the police do not always act in the way we would hope (or at all). There needs to be action taken to deal with the causes before these attacks occur, although its clearly right to defend oneself – one needs to react with care – carrying pepper spray etc is not reacting with care.
Hopefully you will retain a criminal record free life (but carrying pepper spray will not ensure that!).
I would argue that not all homophobia is motivated by religion, some is pure hatred not founded in any faith based background of that individual and is based on personal prejudices without reference to faith. That said, some is.
I think we’re being pushed to protect ourselves mainly because of poor media but it is worth it. I always go out with a personal alarm. It may not harm anyone but thinking the loud siren would make have an impact. I would encourage anyone who feels the need to carry one. You never know.
Homophobic crimes should get the same punishment as racist crimes. They don’t seem to at the moment. We see many people get away with homophobic insults in the workplace etc., when they’d be immediately sacked if it was a racist insult: This isn’t the fault of people of colour, this is the fault of a society that sees homophobic attacks, insults, & the often more damaging indirect prejudice as a lesser crime.
I hope the police catch them & punish them as harshly as they should be punished. The more people are correctly punished for this type of crime, the more they’ll think twice & maybe even learn to accept LGBT people in the future.
There’s a growing culture in this country of ‘them & us’, we’re going backwards, not forwards. We MUST remove the religious & media exemptions from freely attacking LGBT people. That ridiculous exemption to the law alone shows how it’s considered a lesser crime. Religions are freely allowed to attack us, & TV comedians can say what they like about us.
How many more times must we be attacked and in fear for our lives before something is done to educate people properly?
People who attack others are generally bullies.
There is only one way to deal with a bully and it is to give them the same in return – swiftly and hard.
I’ve never known it work in any other way.
Bring in the rattan!
Bullies tend to be cowards who can’t think for themselves and have tendancies to follow the sheep.
This is terrible and the cases of this sort of thing happening seems to be on the increase.
The reporting is on the increase.
Indeed and the media only report these attacks so 1 attack gets thrown into a much bigger highlight.
There has to be an understanding of the difference between media portrayal and actual level of crime ie that there is a difference between level of crime and the fear of crime. There also needs to be an understanding that some crimes such as hate crimes and sexual offences have notoriously been under reported historically, thus an increase in the volume of those crimes either across a specific or general area is not necessarily indicative of an actual increase in crime levels. It may be an indication of either increased confidence in reporting or increased determination of the LGBT communities to take a stand against hate crime or a combination of both.
I am not trying to diminish the impact that each crime has on specific individuals or under egg the amount of hate crime that occurs. If however, we are to campaign to stop hate crime by working with police etc then we need to make sure our claims are factual and honest not speculative and emotive.
I’ve know many people who refuse or who are frightened to come to London thinking that when they do there’ll be some crime on every corner they go. This is all down to the media reporting of it and many of those have been pleasantly surprise when they see it not to be the case. I don’t deny crime is a problem but considering the majority of people are innocent law abiding it does reflect badly and the press do have a responsibility to promote as well as demote as city such as London by reporting the good and the bad.
Coming from London myself I can honestly say that I have rare seen or witnessed any crime in my 40 years. Putting aside my problem a few years ago, i general it is rare, however we look at it, considering the amount of people living in our great city.
These kind of crimes are the consequence of allowing an idiot like the Pope to be allowed to condemn gay people and their lives. If a highly public figure that millions ‘believe’ is allowed to voice homophobia, then the average Joe thinks its acceptable to be homophobic. I hope they find them and instead of fining them or sending them on holiday (i.e. to prison), they should be made to clean the streets of Edinburgh on a Sunday morning. From what I’ve seen on TV of how people are behaving there on a Saturday night, I wouldn’t wish to venture out there, certainly not by myself.
I would have broken the thugs neck on the spot, not waited for him to strike first. It is our own fault if we allow this sort of thuggery. It should have been obvious when the low life stepped forward what his intentions were….hardly looking for a kiss!
With 4 of his mates standing by whilst you’re alone, at 2.30am?
Yea, the way to respond to this is become a thug yourself… All that would of happened is the guy would of gotten the first punch in before having the sh*t kicked out of him.
Easy to be brave on a blog
You break his neck, they stomp you to death. Two for one! Seems too risky. A successful prosecution with hate crime designation accomplishes a hell of a lot more!
Defending pre emptive strike as reasonable force is difficult especially if using fatal or potentially fatal injury. It is much better if encountering these sort of situations to get away from the attackers (if possible) and seek help from the police. There of course will be situations where it is not possible to get away, and in some of these talking will not be an option (although if they can be reasoned with then I prefer (to misuse a quote) “jaw, jaw” to “war, war”. However, the law is clear and will support individuals who legitimately use proportionate self defence that is necessary at the time. This does not mean that if significant injury or death occurs that the person defending themselves will not be arrested, merely that the criminal justice system seeks to protect them. Often (see several cases in Manchester recently) whilst on bail prior to court the case is reviewed and it is decided that it is not in the public interest to continue with the case.
I do wonder, …
… Paddyswurds, how you would explain to a prosecution barrister (if it got that far) how you decided before any physical violence was used by the alleged perpetrator that breaking their necks on the spot was both necessary and proportionate. With hindsight and seeing the assault that occurred, I still think you may struggle to justify potentially fatal injuries, and can not see how you could justify it in terms of fear of what was likely to occur to use such significant force.
If such a level of force was appropriate then we would accept killing people for a whole range of offences, such as pickpocketing, bag snatches, etc etc (all of which could have been initially begun in this way). Not justifying what these guys did, it is reprehensible, but British law is formulated in a more civilised manner and does not accept killing or potentially killing people on the streets for relatively minor crimes (as this one could have been if you had used pre emptive force of this magnitude).
That’s attempted murder in my books. What is the jail term for attempted murder? If I was the judge I’d throw the book at them so hard they’ll flinch every time they walk past a Waterstones (because let’s face it, they’re hardly the type to walk into an actual bookstore).
Maybe I am hardened to some of the violence that we have on the streets of our country from my professional backgrounds (and for that matter in most major cities globally). That is not to underestimate the impact that such horrendous violence can have on individuals and that this will vary from person to person. That said, I am going to have to look at that video again as, from my recollection, that assault was nothing like an attempted murder.
I do agree that the perpetrators may not have been regular clientelle of Waterstones (although football violence was often perpetrated by people who were of many different backgrounds such as teachers, accountants, solicitors, social workers, architects etc – so some may be literate if not morally so).
Getting confused between this case and a one recently discussed on PN in London. There is no video in this case. That said, re-reading the story even if the victim had died, it would be a struggle to prove murder – I would suggest it would be manslaughter in those circumstances as the criminal intent to kill from a blow to knock someone to the ground would be virtually impossible (if indeed such an intent had existed in the mind of the offender).
This sounds like a significant assault but not an attempted murder. We need to respond with outrage and dynamism to find solutions to hate crime. We need to retain a sense of proportion too, otherwise we will be ridiculed for our lack of credibility in how we view events.
Singapore has a particularly nasty punishment with a long, one inch thick cane split at the ends, wielded by a martial arts expert, against a criminal who is tied face down to a cross, buttocks bare. The criminal is scarred for life and needs medical treatment afterwards.
It’s dreadful, but they don’t have much violent crime in Singapore…
Fighting one form of barbarism with another is not my idea of progress.
Most likely members of the Christian Reich did this to him.
Travel in a group when out at night and if you don’t have a cell phone with a camera carry small video cameras and record who is saying and doing what so you can to use it in court, it it comes to that.
They will steal that too.
Christian Reich? Oh you’re charming and displaying a similar ignorance worthy of homophobes worldwide. Why should intolerance bread intolerance? Hmmm?
It really makes us little better.
And how do we spell breed? When complaining of the ignorance of others, better check your spelling first!
My dear fellow I concede, all though I must say that was a low blow. I was only making a point and you were only picking up a typing error. So all is fair in love and war!
A small typo does not cause a rational argument to be irrelevant. YeGods has a very valid point.
Neither should we meet violence with violence, not should we meet intolerance with intolerance.
Despicable act of thuggery. Hope the victim recovers quickly and the thugs are caught before they have the chance to do it again.
More than just hope is needed. We need action.
We need proportionate and moral action. We need to ensure this is dealt with, but we need to not immerse ourselves in unethical action to tackle other immorality.
We need to campaign, we need to work with the police (and other criminal justice system partner agencies), we need to publicize the issue (with a sense of rationality and honesty, maintaining out integrity). We need to find a solution, not knee jerk reactions.
What we do not need is more members of the LGBT communities who end up injured from ill advised self defence with weapons which are then turned on them, or for the violence to be ratcheted up because of some LGBT people using weapons. We also do not need LGBT people being imprisoned for carrying illegal or offensive weapons or using disproportionate force resulting in serious injury or homicide, that was unnecessary and disproportionate (in the eyes of a jury). That will exacerbate the situation. We need to be smarter and work harder to solve this.
London human rights and lgbt organizations need to start announcing on public tv there and other radio medio that all gay people leaving their lgbt clubs must have lgbt task force police patroling their area like they did in Ft. worth , the entire police station was sued and made to pay the gay people in the gay bars a major settlement for harrassment and racism and they then elected a gay laison gay police group to patrol the gay areas and night clubs to ensure saftey against racism and harrassment their, even of racist cops, these gay people had better stop walking home are out of
Those gay men and women and young teens up there in that town are going to have to start carrying protection on them where are they at that they are not seeing the other run in with racists, do they watch the news are see the news papers down there, i know they where not born yesterday, you do not leave a club by your self to go anywhere, you go as a group in a car and you leave as a group in a car, and you should have on all of you some type of mase spray are pockety knives and even hand guns, racists are jealous of them and there relationsships with their friends, they envy them and are intimidated by them , they have nice romantic relationships and hetesexual do not, they are vi0lent laisons, and abusive where most are misesrable, mainly because of the hetersexual men but some bad women too, they msut start being more careful and the london lgbt and lynne featherstone and david cameron, had better set up lgbt laison gay patrol to keep hetersexual awayfrom m the gay scenes and club
The total lack of success in the right to carry arms and correlation there is with the level of firearms involved homicides, assaults and robberies is more than sufficient evidence to demonstrate that society (including the LGBT segment of society) are more harmed by the introduction of weapons routinely into society, on a large scale, than the benefits that some individuals who carry them may obtain.
Carrie, you also clearly do not understand the nature of the British policing model, There would never be a regular particular patrol that was dedicated purely to the gay scene. That is not how the UK police operate. Patrols may target particular geographic areas but these are often larger than gay scenes. That said, there are LAGLOs (LGBT liaison officers) and other methods of supporting LGBT people. In terms of assaults and disorder, this should be tackled by disorder patrols, response officers etc etc and handed on to hate crime investigators if appropriate.
The police ….
… need to do more to ensure confidence in the LGBT communities and demonstrate that they are responding with sufficient vigour to hate incidents. That said, we need to report them too otherwise police can’t investigate if they don’t know about them. If we report all, then a true picture of hate crime can be known both by the LGBT communities and the police and either the police can direct appropriate levels of resources to the problem or we can pressurize them with evidence to do so.
Funny how the thugs always outnumber the victims (in this instance 5 to one), isn’t it?
(No, actually it’s not funny at all, just contemptibly predictable.)
““Anyone found to be involved in hate crime will be robustly dealt with.”
Yeah, sure. The police are lying scum.
Oh dear it’s the illiterate troll again.
@ Matthew…so according to your line of thinking then it is not the rapist who is at fault, but the person who is raped. So we should expect to be treated like this should we? We should expect it and accept it, should we? Can you explain to me the process I went through to consciously and deliberately choose my sexual orientation? So its not the prejudice, intolerance, and injustice that needs to change then, its the people who face and experience it that are the problem. What kind of cloud cuckoo land reasoning is that Matthew? So I have to hide away, live a lie, pretend to be something I’m not, to be accepted and treated with dignity and respect? Well your a f*****g t**t Matthew!!!
What an idiotic comment. Just the kind trolls love to make. If you must feed the trolls, keep the comments pithy and LOL
That is the sort of prehistoric, ignorant and irresponsible comment that used to be accepted saying that women were “asking for it” when they were raped if they wore a short skirt. Grow up. Get a life. Your attitude is irrelevant and wrong.
“Homosexuals made the choice to be how they are, AND behave how they do.”
No, but you seem to have made a choice to be a bile filled buffoon. The only choice in this life is ignorance, and you have embraced it will open arms.
Fortunately the ignorant comment has been removed by PN – Thank You!