So, two issues occur to me as a result of PayPals comments:
Firstly, they regard religious freedom as superior and more important to equality rights for LGBT people – surely there should (at least) be equality parity as they are both diversity issues (some would conclude sexuality should have higher priority as it is not a choice whereas religious opinion is usually a personal choice). Disappointing to see the respect and value Paypal pay to sexual orientation.
Secondly, if they have to respect religious freedom, which I would endorse to an extent, how can they make decisions to bar the KKK but not other homophobic organisations???? Double standards. Impropriety. Dishonesty. Immoral.
And to add to PayPal’s confusing stance, the KKK base their ideas of racial superiority on an interpretation of Christianity.
I don’t think it’s because they are religious, I think it’s because we all know who the KKK are and the vast majority of us hate their guts. Not too many people know who Scot Whatshisface is or these other people.
I have contacted Paypal about this. This initial response was:
“Thank you very much for your feedback.
I understand your frustration regarding this matter and regret any
inconvenience this might have caused.”
When I pointed out the glib response and their failure to acknowledge the homophobia linked to the issues and the fact the organisations concerned were encouraging the killing of gay people, the next response was:
“First of all I apologise for the response that you received from the
previous representative if the issue was not addressed. For security
reasons we cannot discuss you concern through email.”
I have now recontacted Paypal and advised that they are stalling and that I will liaise with journalists and campaigners about their shoddy reaction if they do not provide an appropriate and transparent response.
Be interesting to see the reply!
Well done, Stu. Very interesting to read their lack of response. I imagine they’re stalling so they can think of an appropriate response – which will be very hard, of course, because there clearly isn’t one. Either they respect ALL religious freedom or none. They can’t pick and choose which prejudices they allow. Hopefully, they’ll reconsider their original decision.
I imagine so, Iris
I can’t think of a way I would be able to respond to such a request from the public of my organisation other than to apologise and promise review and reform or to say stuff it – this is what we are doing (and appear both belligerent and bigoted).
I have pointed out to them in a further email that I am unwilling to converse verbally (For security reasons) as Paypal could deny any communication not in wri
Oops in writing
Original email to Paypal was:
It is with total disgust and utmost disappointment that I have learned
of the bigoted approach of Paypal and the hypocracy of your organisation.
Your organisation is frequently used by the lesbian, gay, bisexual and
transgender (LGBT) communities globally and yet your sense of
corporate responsibility and sense of morality and integrity is so low
that you are satisfied to condone and tacitly support homophobia.
You have been approached by campaign group AllOut to ask
that you block the accounts of religious groups supporting anti gay
legislation or propagating homophobic rhetoric. A particular account that was
suggested for termination was Abiding Truth Ministries. It has been explained that
Paypal has been a useful tool for Abiding Truth Ministries who ….
… condone the killing of
homosexuals and seeks to remove human rights for anyone LGBT. There is a
direct comparison and Paypals differing approach can only be considered
as either hypocracy or tacit approval of the most insidious form of
homophobia and an agreement that LGBT people should be murdered.
>This seems strange when Paypal’s own spokesperson states that “PayPal
does not allow the use of its service for activities that promote
hatred, violence or racial intolerance. We take very seriously any cases
where a user has incited hatred, violence or intolerance because of a
person’s sexual orientation.”. It is all very well having a policy of
this nature, but when you fail to enforce this policy then Paypal
appears weak, intolerant, bigoted and supporting murder.
Maybe a greater attempt to explain and gently persuade rather than chastise with righteous indignation would be more productive in this instance.
Maybe – I was annoyed particularly given them not responding to my first more gentle email
Surely the Ku Klux Klan were just exercising ‘freedom of religion’, too? After all, the bible condones slavery. Moreover, why should ‘freedom of religion’ – the basis of which is the belief in a supernatural entity – trump a person’s biology, their sexual orientation? Nobody’s biology determines their religion. Only bigotry, narrow-mindedness, and outright stupidity can conclusively outweigh one prejudice with another.
If anything, many religions (particularly those that spout from christianity) are organisations intended to make a profit from the vulnerable. You don’t have to be religious to believe in god (I happen to not believe in god, if he hates me that much he’s so not worth it), but when you commit to a religion, you commit to it’s ‘terms and conditions’ (aka. the bible). Sod Adam and Eve, Adam and Steve are far more natural!
Sadly this is the case with people like Scot Lively and other evangelical groups who are usually started by people who don’t really know anything about the Bible or what it means to be a real Christian. All these people really want is a podium and an audience, Evangelical Christianity gives them that.
The kind of ‘Christianity’ that they preach is very far removed from the real thing. Real Christians are the ones who work in AIDs clinics in Uganda, a huge, huge, number of which were set up by the Church – which supplies half of all the medical care in Africa. The same Church that is very against the death penalty there and has appeared in All-out videos.
That’s real Christianity. Scot Lively isn’t even close.
Awww, the famous “freedom of religion” get out clause. What about the “freedom of religion” of Ku Klux Klan pastors and members?
The famous “freedom of religion” get out clause. It appears some people in the PayPal company agree with homophobic ideologies and don’t see anything wrong with them. Have they agreed also with KKK ideologies, they would have used the same lame excuse to protect their accounts.
Heh. Freedom of religion wins in this case, but freedom of speech was ignored in the Wikileaks saga.
Paypal know there aren’t many alternatives to their service so they don’t care. we can’t vote with our feet.
that is true however I can limit my use as much as possible, there usually is a button to use a credit card independent of PP. this story disgusts me
Paypal are a bunch of c**ts.
They are all over you like a rash until something goes wrong, and then they blank you completely. My CP “husband” used my credit card for a payment, and they questioned it. We both wrote back showing our legal connection, but they still refused to accept it. 4 years on he still is refused a Paypal account.
While PayPal won’t resolve this issue, use alternatives like NOCHEX if you can.
i’ve not heard of them. are they available in the UK?
yes nochex is available in the uk and is the system used by the police on their auction sites
NOCHEX appears to be the most serious competitor for PayPal, and it is based in the UK:
I may well look them up and seek to contact them to promote their corporate responsibility given Paypals intransigence
PayPal, do the right thing here, there is still time. Do not allow your reputation be tarnished by ‘bigoted and hateful religious freedoms’ that do not deserve protection from any law of any land; nor do they deserve the right to use your services. I will limit my use until my account is empty, at which time, I will no longer need your services, based on your actions here.
Freedom to hate and discriminate is notorious under cover of the freedom of religion mantra. They must think we’re dumb.
One way to counter PayPal’s refusal is to stop using them. You can use your credit card directly or call the vendor if possible to place your order for even a safer method of payment. I never use PayPal and why should you? For every transaction, they make a profit using their service. Don’t feed them, starve them.
Paypal clearly don’t see Homophobia as being as bad a racism. I will try to useother funding methods as much as possible. Any difference in treatment here is VERY revealing.
“PayPal does not allow the use of its service for activities that promote hatred, [or] violence,” unless it’s violence and hatred against LGBTQ folk. I will be finding another way of making online payments in the future.
There are no alternatives that you can use on eBay, you HAVE to use paypal
Or don’t use Ebay… Maybe they’d put pressure on paypal too then.
Paypal is now owned by Ebay, is it not?
I don’t know, graham. That’d be interesting if that was the case. I’d say Ebay’s public image was higher (more well-known) than Paypal’s so maybe that would be the push they need to amend their discriminatory policy – that is, it’ll give Ebay a bad name too if what you say is correct.
Paypal is owned by ebay and I have also contacted ebay – be interested to see if they show the same intransigence as paypal.
Have also contacted nochex to suggest a unique selling point of diversity and equality issues or corporate responsibility issues
This campaign and petition of 25000 signatures is merely the beginning , presumably the campaign will now become more serious and more viral and attract a lot more attention .
So tired of, “oh it is religion, so they can do anything and say anything that they like” Well guess what? Those days are coming to an end!
Now wonder why antigay bigot and former eBay CEO Meg Whitman, has managed to chair the sister company for so long…
So much for Paypal taking the high ground over Wikileaks.
The hypocrisy reaks from this decision.
I was about to open a paypal account but won’t bother now.
Is PayPay talking about religious freedom or the freedom of religion to do whatever it pleases? Seems to me that most people who bring this up want to be able to do whatever they want, including spreading hate.
It’s more like the freedom for people to spread hate and then fall back on a religion that preaches freedom and love and use that as a cover for their opinions.
The problem with pay pal and the police and government is that as time goes by they become more secret and hide a lot of what is being done or what they are doing to you. They work for the people, if the people pay them money and they need to make their dealing transparent so all can see. It is time we all demad that all parts of life become transparent and if not then put them out of business and do not do business with them and only deal with the ones who are transparent. This is like a Revolution with out a shot being fired. Demand transparency or don’t do business with them.
Paypal did not say religious freedom is more important than sexual freedom. These are two important but conflicting freedoms. The comments in this page sound suspiciously like readers believe that nothing is as important as sexual freedom, and that rather than try to seek understanding any other voices must be rejected.
It is not a fair comparison to compare groups who simply believe in traditional values to the KKK, who were horrific in their beliefs.
If 25,000 nutbag evangelicals signed a petition to close down the PayPal accounts of various LGBT organisations, would you expect PayPal to comply?
On what basis should PayPal determine who deserves an account and who doesn’t?
Simply condemning those who encourage murder would be a start
I am confused that PayPal have quoted ‘Freedom of religion’ as their reason not to address this issue. I thought that the First Amendment to the US constitution prohibited the US GOVERNMENT from oppressing free speech by religious groups, with regard to religion, as long as the speech was not a deliberate incitement to violence.
As a private company, PayPal is allowed to address this issue in anyway they want (or DON’T want, as the case seems to show)! Thus they would not be breaking any laws by banning these SPLC-certified hate groups.
Your no different then the kkk…
Homosexuals hate all who disagree with them. The evidence is in, that homosexuality is a self destructive course of depression, drug use as a result of immorality. Gods word doesn’t condone hate towards sinners….Jesus said to love your enemies, bless those who persecute you. Homosexuality is a mundane path of willful ignorance, that God created man and women for a purpose. His purpose is why people are born. On the other hand homosexuality is about selfish non productive lust that leads people to defy God and despise truth. For people to claim to be so tolerant, yet be so intolerable to opposing views, is evidence of self righteous hypocrisy gone wild. Lovers of pleasure more then lovers of God…such disdain admission of wrong doing. By Gods grace those who admit they are in error shall be freed from slavery to sin. They shall recognize life is but a vapor and turn from sin to Jesus christ. attack thel truth but it shall