The operative words being recorded s hat crime…too often officers try to file trans hate crimes under another heading
Probably true, Suzanne, I can believe that.
It seems it’s not just the children who need educating but prehaps the police too so they can treat each crime effective and the victim appropiately.
To be fair to some of the police, I remember when hate crime was first being introduced as a recorded concept in the UK (I was a police officer then), that some of the criteria for consideration was bizarre. Too many crimes were clearly not hate inspired had to have the enhanced investigation that is expected. An example was a shoplifting in a corner shop I attended. It was clearly a shoplifting plain and simple. Neither myself, the shopkeeper, staff nor witnesses perceived it as racist. However, because the surname of the shopkeeper was non-Anglo (in this case Fernandez), I was required by senior supervision to investigate it with the veracity that a racist crime would require (at that time).
This may demotivate some police staff from criming those issues which are potentially (but uncertain) as to whether or not they are hate crime, as the more simpler crimes.
That is not meant to suggest that some police staff are not lazy and wrongly crime things, nor that there are politics
it is always difficult to draw substantive conclusions from figures such as this. The offending rate may not have actually risen while the percetage reported may have. Of course the same is true the other way round sometimes.
It is hard to bring definitive conclusions from statistics such as these, particularly in just cpmparing successive years (a longer period may demonstrate more reliable patterns). Has the number of crimes increased purely because of a marginal increase in confidence in reporting in some areas, because of campaigning by LGBT groups encouraging reporting hate crimes or due to increased incidence of hate crime? Have the areas where crime has fallen benefited from a decrease in hate crime, or is there a lack of confidence in the investigations of the police? etc etc
Yes Mr Otter, there is a lack of confidence in the investigations of the police.
Once bitten, twice shy!
I havent personally had to report a hate crime, thankfully
I have friends who have, and whilst some have been disappointed with the police response, others have been highly complimentary and impressed by the manner the cases have been handled
In terms of hate crime handling – when I was in the police, these were the areas that my team used to be congratulated on more than complained about as we tended to go the extra mile (that may not be everyones experience, but nonetheless it was what we did).
One would be interested to know the origin and ethnicity of those arrested for the crimes. I suspect you would find there is a direct correlation to immigration figures.
Homophobia is not restricted to a particular ethnic minority or minorities. In the same way domestic violence occurs in all backgrounds regardless of race, class, profession, orientation etc. Emotive and irrational comments suggesting homophobia correlates with immigration is uninformed at best, and probably racist.
Correlation does not imply causation, one of the fundamental rules of the scientific method. This data would therefore be completely useless.
Correlation does not imply causation, but if you were a betting man, you would certainly put your money on the short odds.
all the homophobia I have ever encountered came from British born people. In actual fact several of them were of Irish descent. Does that mean I should assume the Irish are den of violent homophobes?
Irish? As in Northern Irish protestants?
So you reckon that gays are not a community with any commonality of interest, apart from who we sleep with, can’t be classified as a group, and are simply lots of different individuals and part of a greater society…. yet you’re content to treat immigrants as a distinct, separate, homogeneous class of people and ascribe criminal tendencies to them as a unified class, rather than see them also as individuals. Of course, that enables you to both deny any sense of gay identity, and to abuse immigrants. Odd that one group are just individuals, yet the other can have common values attached to them, in your world.
I don’t ascribe immigrants as “a distinct, separate, homogeneous class of people” – what I do state though is that British, or at least people that have lived in Britain a long time, can be defined as different to those who have recently moved here. That is why we ARE British. It is our ways, our attitudes, our customs, traditions and laws that make us the people we are.
As usual, you attack everyone that speaks out against immigration from the completely wrong end of the telescope: I am not attacking immigrants, I am merely protecting the rights of those that live here already. That is an entirely different thing.
Well, I don’t post here often enough to do anything “as usual”, so your purpose in using the term “as usual” is simply to smear. You suggest that immigrants are responsible for crimes against gays, so you are classing immigrants as a group, acting in a collective manner, not seeing them as individuals. I would say that crimes against gays are committed by individual criminals, the commonality of “interest” is in criminal behaviour, not ethnic origin. Yet you can’t see that gays of all ethnic and religious backgrounds might have any commonality of interest. You’re not protecting anyone’s rights, you’re just trying to spread fear and your own racist beliefs, and it is arrogant nonsense for you to claim to be protecting peoples’ rights by claiming that crime can be ascribed to immigrants.
I would like to see the ethnic and country of origin of the perpetrators of such crimes. I suspect one would find a direct correlation to the immigration numbers in recent years.
Why, so you can compare notes with david starky? Have you been reading enoch powell’s speech as well? You talk as if the country wasn’t homophobic before immigration. Was it immigrants who made homosexuality illegal before the 60′s in this country. Was it an immigrant who introduced section 28. Was it an immigrant who blew up compton street in 1999. Is it immigrants who won’t provide full marriage equality. I guess you think if we didn’t allow immigration we’d live in a utopia. All white people together, living happily ever after. And three other racists have given you a thumbs up. Sad,
Have YOU read Enoch Powell’s speech?
Penny to a pound you haven’t and you are yet another knee-jerk reactionary that assumes Powell was a blatant racist, which he most certainly was not.
I am not denying there is plenty of home-grown homophobia within the UK, but whilst people here are getting used to the idea, foreigners may be way behind in human rights standards. Labour has opened the floodgates to the massive influx of immigrants that have neither our tolerance or understanding of many social issues. Just take the “Gay Free Zone” of Tower Hamlets and look around you.
I am not being racist, I am simply pointing out the elephant in the room that everyone else is too frightened of pointing out because of leftie twats like you imposing guilt-trips on people in order to keep them quiet.
The last 5 anti gay murders where done by white men
And every homophobic law ever enshrined into british law has been voted in by british born and bred white men (and thatcher, but I’m not sure she was a woman).
is that you David Starkey?
Nope, he’ll be in later though probably.
Nice chap, you’d like him.
Thats nonsense Spanner1960 since clearly in certain areas with larger population of a Black or Asian community the figures may well be higher.
But does that mean we should ignore the fact that that runs true also for areas with a large White population?
Dangerous thinking and very divisive esp considering you probably mean to include innocent, Straight, Gay, Lesbians in that, not matter what ethnic background they come from.
Well at least if we had the statistics available that would either prove or deny my theory. Currently, nobody dares show race related statistics because everyone already knows the answer already but is too sh|t-scared to publicise it.
With respect they dont show them because they arent collated – and the expense required to provide them in the current fiscal period, that would be an unnecessary cost in my view and would not prove anything
They have *never* been collated or published. Don’t blame the current financial climate for what has been going on for years. The collective ineptitude of the Police and CPS colluding with the government to bury any information that might lead to civil unrest by the British people is patently obvious.
I am not blaming the financial situation for non-collation. I am saying that given that they are not collated and the current financial situation, it is not a prudent decision to now go to the expense of collating them. I am also saying that the value of producing such statistics would be nebulous at best
Actually all it would mean is in area where a certain community is greater crime may be higher amongst that community. In affect it is pointless as crime is the same and just because someone happens to be Black, White etc doesn’t make such crime more or less significant.
What a crock of sh!t (as usual…)
There is no such offence that is categorized as a tyransphobis, neither should there be. Some people have a dislike of redheads. It is called Gingerism yet there is no gingerphobic offence even though people are beaten up for being ginger. It is assault, simmple as that, except to those that wish the police to spend their lives ticking boxes and making every single microcosmic group a victim.
So we should see racial abuse as having no racial context if an assault occurs simultaneously? Wrong wrong wrong
That is what I am trying to say , yes. Since racism and homophobia is not a crime, what difference can it possibly make other than pointless box ticking which takes valuable time and resources.
Are you saying then that Gingerphobia should be be recognized as a factor when a giner person is assaulted due to their hair colour?
How will this prevent people hating gingers?
To have such disrespect for humanity says it all about you.
He’s barely human, Jock – he’s just a sad fool who can’t afford to get treated.
So you would like to see crimes of Gingerphobia categorized then I assume.
Sine racism, homophobia and gingerphobia are all lawful, what would be the point?
Hush now, Keith, it’ll all be deleted soon.
Read this in the mean time: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001925/
Nice of you to make fun of the schizophrenic community . Are you schizophobic or is it just a general hatred of mental illness that you have. You certainly reveal your true character, it being a schizophobic, christianophobic , heterophobic filth monger!
Can you explain how these new thumbs work? I like the look of them but since I have been away for a few weeks havent experienced them
“Nice of you to make fun of the schizophrenic community”
Ah, so you ARE schizophrenic. Good to know. Explains your bizarre obsessions and paranoia.
So, go get help.
Stu, enough “thumbs down” and Keith here will have his vile comment obscured (thankfully). Report it enough, and it’ll be deleted – like the sea of comments he previously put up, all deleted. All gone the way of his sanity :)
Actually Keith it was you who introduced us all to the term Clozapine [the anti-schizophrenia medication] when you employed it in an ad-hominem to question another poster’s sanity.
Kind of begged the question how would you know about this obscure drug the rest of us had to look up on Wikipedia.
Thus it’s a little late in the day to be labelling the rest of us schizophobic.
FYI hetosexual and homophobe are not mutually inclusive terms so I think you’ll find most of us have no trouble at all with the majority of heterosexuals we encounter.
Keith, we’re not Hetropohobic most of our family are straight so its a bit difficult to be Heterophobic.
Don’t you just love being able to “Muzzle” the Troll
Its the sweetest meat, John :)
Oh yes. It’s very satisfying, isn’t it? :)
I guess the worse kind of human is those who hate themselves and all others.
It is these people that should be rightly treated as second class citizens and have rights removed until they respect all in society.
I don’t see why the many innocent people should suffer because of someone elses complete ignorance and disrespect.
“I guess the worse kind of human is those who hate themselves and all others.”
Why? I didn’t choose to be born, or live in your society. Why treat them as inferior just because they don’t do what everyone else expects them to.
In my opinion, it is the ‘sheep’ in society that just lay back and get fcked over that are the second class citizens.
Would that be Ginger Nutters?
You aren’t worth responding to Keith. You have no reasoning power so what’s the point?
Actually you doughnut there is – Transphobia is illegal in the UK
Get with the program!
And Im sure that George wouldnt approve of your using his face like that – Take it down and show your own
These stats mirror the rise in anti-gay and anti-disabled rhetoric from right-wing quarters, including the coalition government.
And since Boris got in
And you really think Red Ken and his extremist-loving pals would have done any better? It is him and people like him that have made places like London such a sh|thole as it is today.
Unusually I have to agree with James! re the Boris comments, although I do think the stats with reference hate vcrime are simplistic and dangerous to interpret without a longer period being examined and further background info
Positive education is still key. It’s time the government stop allowing the opt outs of the last government and taught in favour of humanity not religion.
The LGBTQI community must be shown as part of a decent, contributing society and unless this starts we can sadly only expect these figures to continue to rise.
Community my ARSE! There are no commonalities apart from who we happen to sleep with. Stop making out we are so different from everyone else. We ARE society, not some inferior subsection that lives in their own ghettos and never associates with anybody else. What we do in bed is frankly nobody else’s fcuking business anyway.
I profoundly disagree with you. My experiences of persecution and prejudice will have also been shared by other members of the LGBTQI communities (I prefer plural). I also share some political and philosophical views with some. I also share some social experiences. There is a wide range of commonality and difference in the LGBTQI communities and there is both cohesive support from within as well as decent debate and conflict. That is usual in societies.
Oh great. So there are gay trainspotters out there and gay taxi drivers and gay serial killers as well. Just because people have coincidental commonalties does not make them a community.
Many people on here seem to assume far too much of what exactly gay people actually are; and if you don’t seem to toe that “official community line”, you are an outcast or “self-loather”. I have very little in common with most gay people. I just take everyone at face value and leave it at that, instead of trying to enforce these artificial connections. Being gay is just a small facet of who I am, and most certainly does not define my thoughts, actions or ethics in any appreciable way.
Being gay is also just a part of who I am, there is a lot more to me than my sexual preferences. However, my experiences both sexually and of victimisation etc due to my sexuality are commonalities that bring me into contact with others with shared experiences. Now, I am in a community of singers, a community of writers etc etc – some of those have some connection with my sexuality at times and some dont. My sexuality does however specifically at times bring me to the LGBT communities and I personally find that valuable – whether you choose to see it that way or not is up to you – do not deny me that benefit by pissing on LGBT communities as if they dont exist
Being gay is also just a small facet of who I am. There are plenty of other factors to my personality and identity ranging from artistic appreciation, political and philosophical opinion, experience etc etc
One of the factors there though is experience and some of my experience is from being a gay man both in terms of sexual expression, experiences of being patronised (by non gays and other gays) and experience of both oppression and solidarity. Some of these experiences relate to me being interested in art, politics, current affairs and some solely to me being gay. I find value in being a member of various LGBT communities (note plural) but I also find value in being a member of a singing community, political community etc etc
Because you choose not to find value in such a similar expression does not give you the right to demean those who do
The term Gay community sure means all those LGBTQI etc whether we know them or not. It is a whole community of varied interests as well as common goals and determinations. We are not seperate from each other we come together to make another important community within society that makes up the UK and the world.
I am not demeaning what you do in any way. That is entirely your choice. I just find people that assume as you are gay must already be a paid-up member of some “pooftah’s clique” like we have special meetings and secret handshakes like a bunch of Freemasons.
The is no “gay community” per se, simply some people prefer to hang out together. The way I see it is we all happen to be travelling in the same direction, but that does not necessarily define any affinity or even liking for the people sharing your carriage.
Just because you choose not to identify as being part of the community does not mean that the community does not exist
Totally agree, Stu!!
I’d rather not think about your arse ta. Community is what you make it but clearly unlike you I don’t feel the need to sleep with all, just one. Personal I believe in a community that contributes to society just as other communities in society. We are just as important as the rest in society and add much progress to. What we do in bed isn’t anyone elses business but just because you choose to isolate yourself from it doesn’t mean we don’t have a community to be proud of. Quite the opposite.
There are lies, dammed lies and there are statistics. Hate crime against gays may be falling but more people are prepared to report it. Look at domestic violence – thirty years ago if a man smacked his wife up the police usually dismissed it as another ‘domestic’. What does constitute a hate crime anyway? If I simply got mugged for my wallet would I consider the attack to be homophobic?
I was a victim of transphobic absue at Bluewater shopping centre in May. The Police were very good and treated the crime as serious They used the local media to try and get witnesses. Unfortunately there was no CCTV footage of the incident so at the moment no one has been arrested for the offence.
I can’t fault the Police for their response. The officers who took my statement were brilliant and the Hate crime Unit who are actually investigating the crime are in constant contact with me. This has been been classed as a transphobic hate crime
they’re not so good in st annes in Lancashire, though they may be better in the south. and I have to qualify this by saying I have a friend who is a policewoman, it isn’t all just a few bad apples, but they seem to be allowed to get away with it.
I am lucky in my area. If I’m not seen for a few days in my village the local police actually call at my home to see if I’m ok. In fact the local female PCSO and I are very close friends and in constant contact. One of the female PCs that took my statement is also in regular contact outside of her job. The PC has also been a victim of homophobic abuse when she wasn’t in uniform coming out of a gay pub. The abusers got one hell of a shock when she arrested them. The police in Kent do take hate crime very seriously
I guess it also depends how ‘gay friendly’ your average copper is! There’s still a level of mistrust between the LBGT community & the police.
Whilst it would be better if the “average” copper was perceived as more gay friendly. The reality is that many are surprised by how gay friendly some police are. And as with all walks of life some will be grumpy, some easier to get along with, some positively gay friendly, some optimistic, some enthuisiatic, and some dull
It provides for a “Keith Away”, but you can’t see what the latest post is as it all re-adjusts via this script.
In other words, there is no longer a coherent human conversation as the rated comments float to the top it destroys the flow of conversation.
Just a thought having 28 years experience in all things IT and Medical.
no if it doesn’t normally show, but if you click the link it shows up afterwards, and it does keep keith and his nonesense low key, so saves having to bother to respond to him.
I am pleased that it does allow people like Keith to be handled in a democratic manner, without letting people like him take over threads.
I agree the continuity of debate is weakened by this new system. Perhaps we need to adapt to this, or complain to PN to change to a better system.
I think the continuity has improved today, so I dont know if some tweaking has been done
It seems to have been tweaked for the better. All we have to do know is remember where we put replies to see if anybody replied to the reply we put. I guess it will mean more people just using a new window and bypassing the reply button.
best just to keep out of the way, and wait for them to die – they are invariably elderly these hate mongers, and keep a few young easily led supporters who will just vanish when they die. the only unfortunate thing is that some of us won’t outlive them.
The problem is the Police allocate hate crime investigations to officers who have not been trained in supporting Victims of homophobic Hate crime and those untrained officers have there own prejudices and in many cases they do not recognise the offences being made, so they let off the the offenders, which is devastating to the Victim and they can see the offence and the police officers prejudices in plain sight and that leads to a breakdown of police/community relations.
Well it certainly wasnt the case in the force I used to work with. All officers had some general training in diversity and hate crime, but significant hate crime issues were deal with by either specialist liaison officers or the public protection unit (where all officers are liaison trained). Other forces in the past used to use any officer, but were strongly urged by HMIC to adopt best practice. I suspect that any handling of hate crimes by non trained officers these days (in the vast majority of forces) is either due to an officer being trained and developed to handle additional skills or due to resource issues. I think perpetuating errors of years ago made by forces that have been largely improved upon is disingenuous in attempting to build the relationship between police and community.
Have to agree. When I had the problems before when I was forced out of my home, the police support was exceptional but then I went out to find who I needed.
I do realise not all police forces are the same mind but it can be a case of finding who you want, rather than just reporting it as standard.
I was once kicked out of a pub for kissing my bf in there and when I went to complain the police where more worried about the fact he was under the drinking age than the fact that we had been kicked out because of our sexual orientation. It also made me think that if I reported it to a newspaper or anything similar it would also be dismissed because of a technicality.
I understand this is not necessarily all police but it does make me feel a bit uncomfortable when I have to deal with them that one of them might just dismiss it much the same as the one that I had last time.
Whilst I understand your views on the lack of support you received for this instance. The police were not the correct agency to seek help from, breachng the equality act (which would be the issue in the facts you disclose) is a matter for local authorities or the EHRC or private prosecution. That said, the police should have offered guidance or agencies you could contact, nonetheless it is not a breach of criminal law enforced by the police.
I’m an LGBT liaison officer for the Met and my true belief why reported crime is rising is because the police are actively encouraging people to report all hate crime and it is categoricalised (if that’s a word) as such e.g. homophobic, transphobic, religious, disabilty etc. Spread the word, tell everyone to report all hate crime. The Met now employs a lot of people like me who will not stand for the intollerance of the idiotic minority
I understand that the abusers were charged under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1988 which says it is an offence to use abusive, threatening or insulting words language or behaviour with the intention of causing alarm distress of harrassment. They were also charged under Part 5 Section 74 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which make which hatred due to sexual orientation (homophobic hate) an offence. This amends Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986.
No but you have Indian Restaurants doesn’t mean only Indians eat there does it.
But many a straight bar would disapprove of what some do in gay bars.
In much the same way, I’m sure you wouldn’t want gay marriages in your church.
Now who’s being selective?