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Scottish Catholic leader attacks gay marriage

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  1. One man, one woman; one man, one woman, and all her female slaves; one man, one woman, and his 700 concubines; one man and his two daughters; one man, however many female prisoners of war; one man, and his brother’s widow; one man, and his rape victim… Yep, the Bible’s a great guidance on marriage, all right – I certainly feel enlightened!

  2. Gay marriage is wrong because my imaginary friend in the sky says so, or that’s what I believe he would say if he wasn’t imaginary and rather bad at communicating!

  3. What a shock!

    and what about straight CPs? what about CPs in Churches ….no, no,no – no to anything and everythging…

    That reminds me only 2 more weeks before we get the results of the consultation on religious CP down here…I feel an imminent delay coming along..

    as for straight CPs down here, that doesn’t look too good as well after mps recently reject any moves to undermine the “institution of marriage” and the berock of society by introducing partnerships laws after 2 yrs…

    are we really getting anywhere down here, I’ve just spotted the epetition to ban SS marriage and CPs in church has overtaken any petition to legalise it….

    Good luck Scot,I have more faith you getting ME before us despite the Catholic ranting and raving!

    1. Hi John, is there a petition to legalise same-sex marriage? if there is, then we need to get people signing it now.
      .
      Unitarians took a major part in the campaign for religious civil partnerships (seemed like the logical next step but some feel we should have gone for same-sex marriage and skipped that step) and also responded to the consultation on religious civil partnerships to say we want them now.

      1. I mean obviously I have signed the Equal Love campaign’s petition, but if you know of any others, I’ll sign those too.

        1. There’s 3 epetitions to legalise SS marriage and a few epetitiions to ban it. There also an equal love like epetition calling for CP equality as well. The epetition with the most signatures so far is

          http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2797

          and the epetition with the most signatures to ban CPs at churches and also ban any move towards SS marriage is

          http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/13058

          Good luck if you can get any gay org or gay paper interested in promoting the epetitions!!! It’s certainly not an easy task..

  4. Bigoted old bastard. “Rewrite nature”?? There’s nothing unnatural at all about same sex relationships and marriage. Marriage is nothing more than a vehicle of convenience made out of social and legal constructs and serves the needs of patriarchal society. Some do it for religious reasons, but I don’t see why their needs should be placed above those of everybody elses…. once again a church is desperate to cling on to power and control, supress those who don’t subscribe to their beliefs and shove its views down the throats of people who simply couldn’t care less about it – as the article says, 61% of Scots believe same sex couples should have the right to marry.

    1. Mumbo Jumbo 8 Sep 2011, 11:51am

      Indeed. On the other hand, there is plenty that is unnatural about celibacy and raping children.

    2. The dotty old Cardinal obviously hasn’t read up on the subject of marriage, nice link here if you are interested:
      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_institution_of_marriage_invented#ixzz1E2sXzCuY

  5. Does Scotland have a concept of separation of church and state, like the U.S. does? Are churches exempt from taxation for which they, in return, stay out of politics? It doesn’t sound like it.

    1. note: please don’t take my comment to mean that it WORKS in the U.S.!!! I’m really asking the question: is separation of church and state a legal concept in Scotland? If it is, can’t people just pipe up with “shut yer trap, Catholic church, unless ya wanna pay taxes on all those millions”.

      1. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, which is a theocracy. The Queen is the head of the church and also the head of state. We have no separation of church and state. Bishops are placed in the house of Lords to make decisions about how the country is run and the state gives funding to churches to run schools.

        1. Hi Dromio – but they don’t have Anglican bishops in Scotland, so I think the situation may be different there.
          .
          Also the Catholics are not the Established church in any part of the UK (that’s what the Reformation was all about – I am sure you know that, but there may be someone on here who doesn’t know the history).

          1. Tim Hopkins 8 Sep 2011, 12:07pm

            We do have Anglican bishops: the bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church. I did a public discussion event on equal marriage with the Episcopal Bishop of Glasgow and Galloway the other day.

            But neither they nor the Catholic Bishops sit in the Scottish Parliament! The closest thing to an established church is the Church of Scotland, which does not have bishops, and which is likely to remain neutral on same sex marriage.

          2. The Established Church in Scotland, is the Church of Scotland, which is governed by presbyterian polity. Unlike the Church of England the Queen is not supreme governor, but just a member. Wales and Northern Ireland do not have established Churches since the Anglican churches were disestablished in 1920 and 1871 respectively.

        2. Charles Gormley 8 Sep 2011, 12:10pm

          The UK is very far from being a theocracy. Sure, there are bishops in the House of Lords – where they do not make decisions about how the country is run, but review house of commons legislation. Any Lords proposed legislation has to be passed by a majority, as does commons reviewed legislation, and the bishops form a very small number of cross bench peers. If this was a theocracy, church attendance would be higher and we wouldn’t even be discussing the prospect of same sex marriage. Is it right that the bishops sit in the house of lords? Like it or not, the represent a section of the population. Finally, the Church of England is the established church in England – not the UK.

          1. Tim Chapman 8 Sep 2011, 8:04pm

            “like it or not, they represent a section of the population”

            They don’t represent anyone because no-one voted for them.

        3. Scotland may be politically part of the UK, however law, education and religion have always been independent of England. The Queen is not head of the Church of Scotland which is presbyterian (not Anglican) and there are no Church of Scotland Ministers in the House of Lords. The Church of Scotland has never held the privileged position of being ‘established’ unlike the Church of England.

          1. Brian Dempsey 8 Sep 2011, 6:47pm

            Yes, it’s strange, but after the acts of union England kept its own legal system instead of adopting the Scotti legal system. Fools, but there you are.

  6. It is sad that some clergy have to trot out their nasty prejudices and try to back them up using the Bible.
    .
    Scottish Unitarians publicly supported same-sex marriage. Rev Maud Robinson spoke in support of same-sex marriage on Scottish TV. http://t.co/YWrIfLh
    .
    Why does Pink News NEVER report on inclusive churches?
    .
    And it’d be more inclusive of bisexuals and lesbians if you referred to it as same-sex marriage – lesbians and bisexuals often want to marry someone of the same sex.

  7. DJ Sheepiesheep 8 Sep 2011, 11:03am

    It is natural for a straight man to sleep with a straight woman. It is natural for a gay man to sleep with another gay man. It is natural for a gay woman to sleep with another gay woman. It is also natural for any individual with no sex drive to sleep with no one.

    It is however utterly unnatural for an individual to repress their innate sexual desire and to force themselves to live a celibate life. And as we know, the consequences of doing so can impact horribly on the lives of many innocent people.

    1. Indeed, indeed, indeed!

  8. Either the Internet ate my previous comment or it’s been deleted.
    .
    It’s sad that religious bigots trot out their nasty prejudices and then try to justify them using the Bible.
    .
    Scottish Unitarians support same-sex marriage. Rev Maud Robinson spoke on Scottish TV in support of them. See http://t.co/YWrIfLh

    1. Oh my previous comment has reappeared now – must have been a glitch in the system!

  9. Ignorant bigot! He exposes himself as thoroughly uneducated by making the remark about ‘nature’, when science has shown that it is natural for a proportion of humans to be primarily attracted to the same sex and that the same is true of a vast number of other species. No human culture has ever been found without homosexuality and no human language without words to describe it. No one could rationally argue that homosexuality wasn’t natural for humans, and when you accept that you have one decision to make: either to run a two-tier society in which some people are privileged over others, or to support equality.

  10. Celibate single man wearing a skirt should not talk about subject he has no clue about.

  11. Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual, bisexual and transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting.Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied. According to Bagemihl, “the animal kingdom does it with much greater sexual diversity—including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex—than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept.” That much about nature.

  12. Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual, bisexual and transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting.Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied. According to Bagemihl, “the animal kingdom does it with much greater sexual diversity—including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex—than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept.” That much about nature.

  13. He looks like he likes a bit of a cock.

    1. Rudehamster 13 Sep 2011, 5:30pm

      Well, it’s well known that he’s kissed an old man’s ring.

  14. Mumbo Jumbo 8 Sep 2011, 11:48am

    Last year, teh gheys turned up in their thousands to march against the visit of the Pope to the UK.

    Let’s carry on with the good work on Saturday 17 September this year when you can protest again against the influence of the Vatican and religion in public life by joining the Secular Europe Campaign (backed by the BHA and NSS) march through London.

    Details here: http://secular-europe-campaign.org/march-rally/

    Make your voice heard. See you there.

    1. We need a Vatican free USA when are you coming to free us from the Catholic Bishops Conference?;-)

    2. Damn I am at a civil wedding that day otherwise I’d have been there like a shot. My hubby and I both did the Protest the Pope march and it was a fantastic turnout.

  15. Alastair J, Mainland 8 Sep 2011, 12:03pm

    There are subtle forces beyond our means that govern our existence, they cant bee seen, leaving a gaping opportunity for gap worship. However for some more educated, one such force is incredibly obvious, BALANCE. There are far to many of us on this planet, gay people provide that balance by sometimes abstaining from having children. That’s not to say gay people are not suitable parents, I’ve seen evidence that proves that attitude, is no more than prejudice. This man has obviously never worked with or observed the animal kingdom. A Bow Nosed Whale can live for three hundred years, why? It seems their answer is simplicity and survival, This man complicates matters that are very simple for his own greedy selfish agenda, people who revere him are sidling with a very very ugly business, trying to remove that which is natural and beautiful, for his own selfish obsession with power and authority. He obviously has no idea how foolish his opinions are and make him seem.

  16. Alastair J, Mainland 8 Sep 2011, 12:26pm

    Then again something tells me his deliberate fear mongering agenda, is something he gets a great deal of pleasure from

  17. Alastair J, Mainland 8 Sep 2011, 12:29pm

    Then again something tells me his deliberate fear mongering agenda is something he gains a great deal of pleasure from

  18. Kim Berlin 8 Sep 2011, 12:50pm

    One suggestion that comes to my mind is that if you do not like Gay Marriage or Same Sex Marriage, then simply don’t have one …

  19. the government is “minded towards” gay marriage – i don’t think so. If they wanted us to have it, we’d have it by now. Better to keep dangling the carrot …

  20. I am sure there are many people of religion who are actually quite nice – quite accepting of the LGBT community. Why is it we hear only of the rather unpleasant ones? Come on, you nice Christians out there, let’s hear more from you! Show your Christian spirit, and tell people such as this that they are not representative of your faith.

  21. As a practicing Catholic, I find the cardinals statement offensive and ignorant. Orthodox Catholic teaching is that doctrine must be informed by the findings of science and reason, but the claim that gay marriage is contrary to human nature simply ignores the findings of both biological and human science.

    The claim that marriage predates the state ignores the historical fact that state regulation of marriage also predates that by the church – and the claim that marriage has always been between “a man and a woman” ignores the multitude of societies that have have or had different tradition.

    Worse, from a Catholic perspective, is that he also ignores the historical fact that there once existed a provision for the liturgical blessing of same-sex unions, in church.

    For more, see http://queeringthechurch.com/2011/09/08/cardinal-obrien-launching-his-campaign-against-scottish-gay-marriage-is-talking-through-his-red-hat/

    1. I cannot understand why anybody can be a practising Catholic today.
      I dumped the whole shooting match in 1961 whilst a 20 y.o. seminarian, having been told that as a homosexual, I was sick and needed treatment in the shape of electric shocks. That was the advice I was given by my religious superior.
      I left the seminary, went to Mass on the Sunday and suddenly just got up half way thro’ the service and walked out and I have never been inside a church since.

  22. zipperlip 8 Sep 2011, 1:13pm

    Why do two queers want to get married for anyway.They know it’s a load of rubbish.Is it to prove to normal people they are equals?

    1. To be formally recognised as legal next-of-kin (and all the related tax benefits and so on) perhaps?

    2. Dave North 8 Sep 2011, 1:47pm

      Why do ignorant bigots come onto gay web sites. Is it to prove what d!ckheads they are.

  23. This would have been newsworthy only if it had been a member of the Catholic clergy coming out in support of equality for gay people. The homophobia of the child-raping, AIDS spreading, misogynist circus of “miracles” is so well understood that this kind of background noise doesn’t merit reporting. Let them stick to their dark ages thinking whilst the rest of us move on towards a more enlightened future.

    1. Paul Halsall 8 Sep 2011, 1:34pm

      In fact in the history of gay political organising in Scotland the support of Catholic clergy was very important. One priest for example, published the early editions of the Scottish Minorities Group (later Scottish Homosexual Rights Group) newsletter on his parish printer. Fr. Anthony Ross OP, allowed the basement of the Catholic Chaplaincy in Edinburgh to be used for the first gay discos in Scotland. And so on.

      People who think religious people have always been opposed to gay rights have absolutely no idea of history.

      1. “People who think religious people have always been opposed to gay rights have absolutely no idea of history.”

        I prefer to look at if any religious people oppose gay rights TODAY, not historically. And what I see today doesn’t exactly inspire me with confidence.

      2. Paul,

        There may be isolated examples of individuals doing the right thing, but the institutional church of Rome is, as I suspect you know only too well but do not want to offend its sheep like followers by saying, the principal enemy of gay rights in all the parts of the UK to this day.

        I wonder if you had the dubious benefits of a catholic education and haven’t entirely shaken it off yet :-)

  24. Miss O’Brien can scream and shout and stamp her little foot all she likes, but civil marriage equality is evitable. And life will have finally passed her by for good when it does.

  25. O’Brien just doesn’t get it. Religion, especially the roman cult does NOT control civil marriage which does not mandate procreation or mention a deity during the marriage ceremony. Why hasn’t anyone asked this moron for factual evidence to support his claims? He would have to oppose infertile heteros from marrying using his argument. It’s all about procreation, let’s face it. A bit rich coming from a cult with a millenia old tradition of child abuse and misogyny. It is morally bankrupt. The more they rant, the more irrelevant they become.

  26. Is there much diffrence between the Catholic church and the Westboro… Baptists?

  27. I don’t know why the media continue to entertain this ancient old fiction, from un elected small minded bigots. They are the minority now in this country. The catholic church are against homosexuals because it isn’t “Normal” yeah and walking on water is?. Seriously, people don’t need to take lectures from people associated with one of the most efficient paedophile organisations in the world disguised as a religion. Thank ‘God’ religion is on it’s way out.

  28. Why is the church so utterly obsessed with homosexuality? It is only mentioned in that book about 5 times. It’s a big book, try and find another, more worthy cause and move on. Okay go ahead, strenuously oppose it, I strenuously oppose living my life using your rule book, but do you see me wanting to outlaw your superstitions? If allowing two people who love each other to get married directly attacks the foundation of society, then you must think society is full of idiots. 39% might be, but the 61% majority have brains, can think for themselves and have said ‘fine – get married’. It took a long while before the church gave in and agreed the world wasn’t in fact flat, and not the centre of the universe, in fact it had no qualms in murdering those who said otherwise. People are cottoning on to your controlling suppressive ways. The difference between a Christian and a homo is that the homo doesn’t wish to kill all Christians. God made us gay, who are you to judge his wisdom?

  29. What would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sick and duplicious is the way that certain churches (a) continually condemn gay people for (supposedly) not having committed and serious relationships and then (B) concentrate almost all their energies and influence on denigrating and undermining those gay people who are in serious relationships and doing all they can to make sure these receive no support.

    When people contradict themselves it usually means that either they’re idots or they know that they are wrong.

  30. Since when did the Pope become an expert on human nature? The family has been around in many forms in human history. He and others rely on the fact that there is little to no history of same-sex relations prior to a couple of thousand years ago. Then again, there is no history that same-sex relations weren’t very common. No history does not mean no existence.

  31. Brian Dempsey 8 Sep 2011, 6:53pm

    This “my sky god told me so, so your sky god it wrong – and anyway mine pays my for my food and keep” merchant says that marriage pre-dates the state. Silly, deluded man – marriage is a legal status reliant upon state recognition.

  32. I think O’Brien is delusional if he thinks gay marriage will rewrite nature. Homosexuality is not a choice and is natural. It is the Church trying to rewrite nature by not accepting that homosexuality exists and is part of humanity. It is outrageous he thinks his organisation can dictate to everyone who they can and can love and marry, whether they are religious or not.

  33. I think O’Brien is delusional if he thinks gay marriage will rewrite nature. Homosexuality is not a choice and is natural. It is the Church trying to rewrite nature by not accepting that homosexuality exists and is part of humanity. It is outrageous he thinks his organisation can dictate to everyone who they can and cannot love and marry, whether they are religious or not.

  34. Unsurprising and totally irrelevant …

    Marriage predates any religious involvement …

    I take the 61% of Scottish people polled as being more relevant than the cardinal

  35. dreadful man

  36. He just doesn’t get it. Civil marriage has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion. It was invented by the state not by the religious cults. Who gives a toss if the roman cult doesn’t want us to marry let alone recognise our marriages. They’re not our elected representatives and as such should stay out of civil matters that are clearly none of their frigging business. We don’t tell them what to do, or call for their cult being banned so shut the f__k up, O’Brien! Get your own filthy house in order first.

  37. Redefine marriage? What planet do these people live on? Gay marriage predates Christianity (and therefore Catholicism). Case closed, it was the Christians who redefined it.

  38. As if anyone cared what that old queen says.

  39. Robin Evans 8 Sep 2011, 10:06pm

    old men set in their ways should be pitied then ignored…

  40. “rewrite nature”

    That’s rich, coming from a religion with celibate clergy, which encourages absolutist monogamy with the same person forever, no sex outside of marriage, no masturbation and et cetera.

    Doesn’t sound very natural to me.

    1. Yes, I agree.

      If only they could actually try to be celibate, but I suppose that would mean having to close down every public convenience in the land.

  41. Riiiight, because a group of celibate old men in dresses are the people to determine what’s “natural”.

  42. It is bloody rich of this dirty old paedophile to tell others that they can’t have a civil marriage or how they should live their lives.

    Gay marriage is on the horizon and is inevitable just as day follows night. Better start getting used to that FACT.

  43. Why not they already rewrote the books on pedophile Catholic priest raping children and getting away with it.

  44. believing in sky friends plus catholic priests abusing kiddies isnt natural gay marriage is coming to defeat u brainwashed twits. get a life and stop living in false hope

  45. Jock S. Trap 9 Sep 2011, 11:37am

    What a surprise. Another religious fruitloops who wishes for unstability and division.

    Yet again they cannot see that a better progressive society is one of stability and community. That includes marriage Equality whether these people lik eit or not.

    Also interesting how they clearly oppose democracy. Time for church and state to seperate for the sake of a better humanity?

    I think So!

  46. what someone does behind closed doors is their business even though i dont agree with homosexuality,but where gays are demanding legal justification and expect the majority to accept or be prosecuted then that smells of cencorship and big brother type intimidation.TOLERATION YES !LEGISLATION NO!

  47. Yes, that’s what you are all right Keith.

  48. And “further proof” that uninspired and unintelligent people would base a whole “community” on one persons comments.

  49. Can’t you negate a sentence without putting “NOT” at the end? What are you, 5?

  50. Since when do victims have to be tolerant of oppressor? You need to fight for your rights not wait for them to be handed to you. Even sarcasm and jokes are form of resistance. So are coming out and Pride. Maturity in LGBT…they treat as as second class citizens, of course we are matured…just like cheddar. Reeking a bit already.

  51. What’s got up your nose?! Te is one of the reasonable Christians. It’s good to know there are some! We need to hear from more of them, to counterbalance the views of such as Cardinal O’Brien.

    There are enough pains in the culo out there without your adding to their number.

  52. “Either be a Catholic or don’t be”

    Latter, please. The former is for those who can’t think for themselves.

  53. In that and that alone I agree with TommyTT the anti-gay bigot but also the true voice of Catholicism. Te your adherence to the Catholic church makes you a traitor to the gay cause.

  54. How would you know, are you a paedophile?

  55. Keith, you don’t seem to understand the difference between two consenting adults forming a loving bond with one another, and an adult forcing his/her affection on a child who knows no better. I am slightly worried about you. Your lack of being able to tell the difference between a homosexual relationship and a paedophile relationship suggests you are confused as to why it is legal for homosexuals and not paedophiles, therefore you fit the profile of someone who could be a paedophile.

  56. You’re response isn’t much better, to be honest – and a pretty puerile insult too.

  57. Ah, the old “natural law” nonsense. Now I see why you’re all histrionic here.

    There is no such ting as “natural law”. Grow up.

  58. To be illiterate in religions matters is to be intelligent in all others. Religion is the recourse of those who cannot think for themselves. Point in case:- you.

  59. “Would love to see you march against Islam – the fastest growing religion in Europe and the world!”

    Oh, here we go again, the paranoid fear. The corner stone of all religious freaks and half baked nutters – “them there is-lam-ists and ho-mo-sexuals- are out to ruin our way of life and eat our dogs and little ‘uns”

    The more religious you are, the bigger the fool you become.

  60. “Natural Law”

    Does this pass as “a logical or mature argument” for you?

  61. Essentially the courts run UK and thankfully judges nowadays are treating views like Miss O’Brien’s with increasing asperity.

  62. Wow. Quite a camp little bitch, aren’t you Tommy?

  63. “What’s the Bible got to do with it?”

    Indeed.

  64. Tolerant, like the catholic church is?

  65. Dave North 9 Sep 2011, 9:13am

    As I am in a Civil Partnership, I am just defending my position from ill thought out ranting homophobes.

    It may just be a “pretendy” marriage but for what it is, it is important to me and I will NOT have that denigrated by some bigot.

  66. Will and Mark, you both wish to see things in black and white. Appreciate the fact that this person is able to rise above the bigotry of their church’s hierarchy. Do not be so dogmatic. You risk becoming gay, atheist versions of Cardinal O’Brien.

    I understand that many in the LGBT world are less than enamored of Christianity as we perceive it, but perhaps if we listen to the moderate voices we might find that there are many who are not our enemies.

    Believe in the religion or not, if it contains, among the haters, some kinder souls, surely that is a positive for us.

  67. “You risk becoming gay, atheist versions of Cardinal O’Brien.”

    Please do not patronise, there is nothing extreme in my comments. Its is a well documented fact the more religious you are, the lower your intelligence. This is more apparent then you see that 98% of scientists are atheist. If Religion contains some “kinder souls”, where the hell are they? Is silence their MO, or do they just not care that the dogma is being hijacked by basket cases like Tommy here?

  68. Will, I gather you felt I was being patronising. It was not my intention so to be.

    That being said, your last comment was such as to make me wish I had been so. Your comments truly merit disdain – aggressive, intentionally insulting, ill-considered and vulgar.

    In spite of all that, perhaps they merit a little more than disapprobation. You ask where are the kinder souls – look around you – get past your prejudices and actually meet people outside of your normal circles. At the moment you appear to me to be as wrapped in your prejudices as Cardinal O’Brien is in his.

  69. Two points Carlos:-

    First, if the person in question thought a bit they should be able to see that to be practising Catholic and gay (unless you are a self hating one) is to be completely intellectually at odds with the fundamental doctrines of the religion. I don’t have a lot of time for people who don’t think straight, “kinder souls” or not.

    Secondly, your comparison of the anti-religious with the Cardinal’s bigotry is no apt. Religion is a lifestyle choice which those with a brain can remove themselves from or, more important for the point we are discussing, adhere to. They have a free choice and should be called out on it ruthlessly. Gays of course just are, like people of a given ethnicity.

  70. “Your comments truly merit disdain – aggressive, intentionally insulting, ill-considered and vulgar.”

    Sure it does, as such as your continue to patronise as if we are all idiots….. “meet people outside of your normal circles”. Please. I suggest you do the same, you seem quite insular in your single minded defence of all things religious. I’m sorry you do not like the statistics or facts I gave you, but that’s not really my problems.

  71. I do not defend all things religious – I am merely wishing to take people as I find them. Some are kind, some are not. Some are good, some are not.

    I shall not go into the question of your statistics and facts – such things have been used against the LGBT community since long before it was known as that. Remember the famous phrase “lies, damned lies and statistics.”

    You perceive me as quite insular in my defence of all things religious – perhaps that is because I do not agree with you. Every time you comment, you only reinforce the perception that you are as prejudiced and intolerant as Cardinal O’Brien.

  72. Yawn. Circular arguments are your forte, I see.

    AS I said, logic is not the domain of the religious.

  73. Mark,

    I think the case with Te and others is that they have their own understanding of the “fundamental doctrines” of their faith. That they are not entirely congruent with those of the hierarchy is not necessarily important to them. Disagreements in any field occur – religion, science, art.

    I did not mean to compare the anti-religious with the Cardinal’s bigotry – at least, not in the way you perceived it. I merely felt that the vigour with which some opinions were expressed – indeed, the anger with which they were expressed – was strongly reminiscent of the Cardinal.

    I understand, I believe, that many such as you and Will have strong views, perhaps fashioned by your experiences, and that, sometimes, those views must be forcefully defended, but I do not think this was one of those occasions. Why unnecessarily alienate friends?

  74. Carlos

    Thank you for replying. As tot he first point, the Church of Rome is not a field of science or art where disagreements are accepted between reasonable people. It is crystal clear without possibility of disagreement that gay sex, even in the context of a committed monogamous relationship, is inherently disordered and sinful. If te and others (the fools who go to gay masses in Soho for example) think that there is any place for them within the church then I fear they are much mistaken: find me a single member of the hierarchy in GB who supports LGBT equality in any way shape or form. And as I said I don;t like people who don’t think straight.

    Why should we care? We should care because the church will use people like te to show, contrary to the fact, that it really has a place for gay people (I’d personally call them “uncle Toms”) who practise their particular superstition.

  75. Mark,

    “It is crystal clear without possibility of disagreement …” – well, I am afraid there is a possibility of disagreement. The Catholic Church has a long history, as far as I can determine from friends and family in that faith, of disagreement with the hierarchy.

    You say you do not like people who do not think “straight”. Well, perhaps people such as Te consider that they are thinking “straight” and that their hierarchy is misdirected. Perhaps they prefer to remain within their Church and try to change it from there. I do not know – I cannot presume to speak for them.

    I find myself in agreement with your final point – that such people can become “Uncle Toms”. I do not know how best to deal with this, but I do hope there is be a better way than disparaging such as Te.

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