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New Irish transgender laws ‘will break up families’

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  1. Jock S. Trap 15 Jul 2011, 12:05pm

    What happens to those that refuse?

    This is appalling.

    Clearly still goes on the two people of the same sex cannot love each other as much as a man and woman.

    It’s discriminating, it’s just plain nasty and proves no purpose.

    People should not have to go through such heartache, it’s totally immoral and totally inhumane.

  2. I may not be understanding this right. If not please correct me.

    Two year period of RLE plus a medical report or SRS and a divorce? That’s the same in the UK under The Dender Recognition Act 2004…?

    So, the nasty politicians are giving the trans people of Ireland the smae rights as those in the UK rather than NONE which they currently have…

    Where’s the issue? There are many stricter countries in the EU with regards to GR.

    Ireland’s LGBT policies are developing fairly quickly given the Religious veiws many people hold. It would be like expecting the ’04 CP and GRA to come into force in the UK in the ’80s it wasn’t ready for it.

    As a human I say be greatful for everything you get and in time it will grow.

  3. It does seem a shame that Ireland has copied the UK’s GRA so closely, rather than learning from the UK’s mistakes.

    But retaining the requirement to divorce is cruel and flat-out ridiculous. This is a hated component of the UK GRA (and rightly so), and serves no useful purpose. Spouses of trans people are not demanding mandatory divorce, so why is the government imposing it on them?

    This is a golden opportunity for the Irish government to avoid this most poisonous aspect of the UK’s GRA arrangements. Simple solution – with consent of the spouse/civil partner, marriage/civil partnership to be converted to civil partnership/marriage. Without spousal consent, divorce required.

    Ideal? No. We need marriage equality here in Ireland. But this will take a few years at least.

    In the meantime, allow a straightforward marriage/CP conversion without this nastiness of enforced divorce.

  4. Helen in Ireland 15 Jul 2011, 12:35pm

    I’m the heterosexual wife of one of the MTF transwomen affected by this legislation. In August of this year we are celebrating our 25th (Silver) wedding anniversary – what an anniversary present! My wife was in the room at the launch of the report and spoke to the Minister to express our dismay. She said it was in conflict with the Irish Constitution.

    Well, if a constitution discriminates so badly against its citizens that they are forced to split up to obtain their rights, then the constitution should be changed. There is no such thing as gay marriage or same-sex marriage – there is only marriage, free and equal for all.

    The divorce rate amongst transpeople and their heterosexual spouse is incredibly high. Those of us who have worked our way through the shock, heartbreak, and have gradually come to terms with our spouse’s true gender identity should be rewarded for staying true to our vows and true to the spirit of marriage. We will be challenging this ruling all the way!

    1. ” there is only marriage, free and equal for all.”

      Good for you Helen, and all the very best wishes for your future.

    2. Well said, Helen!

    3. Well said Helen,
      However seeing as the legislation in Ireland is more or less an exact copy of the British legislation it’s not surprising this situation exists.

      Marriage equality is the only way out of this mess.

      It would be massively unfair to allow a same-sex couple (one of whom is trans) to remain married, if at the same time a same-sex couple (neither of whom is trans) was not allowed to marry.

      Marriage equality will sort this out.

      Until that time, welcome to the Marriage Apartheid Regime.

      1. In the trans situation, the marriage was legally entered as, at the time of the marriage, there was one legal man and one legal woman. They are already married when one party seeks gender recognition. If the trans party has had gender reassignment surgery, they are in a de facto same sex marriage. The marriage is not invalidated by being same physical sex. It is massively unfair on the trans couple to force then to choose between their marriage and the trans partner’s human rights.

        Allowing them to remain married and the trans party obtain legal recognition would be an enabler for opening up equal marriage for all.

    4. Miguel Sanchez 15 Jul 2011, 6:47pm

      God bless you Helen and congratulations on your 25th wedding anniversary.

    5. Helen, I would just like to say you are a shining light and we are 100% with you and your wonderful Wife. It is disgraceful and hopefully our government will see the error of its ways.

  5. Jen Marcus 15 Jul 2011, 1:01pm

    Instead of encouraging and advocating for people who are in loving, committed marriages and relationships the Irish government is now requiring people to divorce just because one of the spouses has a recognized medical condition and needs to be a complete human being? This is a backward, uncivilized, inhumane, and a hypocritical policy which applies as well to the UK. As we all know,its really about the government denying us marriage equality,for shame on Ireland and the UK!In all fairness however,as a matter of social justice, both countries are light years ahead of most states in the the US and its federal government.

    1. The US, where in somes states it’s easier to get your birth certificate changed and where to do so does not automatically mean you have to divorce?

      But this is an example of how marriage equality isn’t just an issue for those who identify as GLB as you identify.

      1. You are correct Mallin, that is why I said “most states in the US ,” not all! In those states allowing for a change of gender marker on the birth certificate ,I do not think any statutes creates an “automatic” divorce situation once a married person has GRS, but I think some jurisdictions require that a TG person obtain a divorce decree before that party can secure a new or amended birth certificate. Then the question becomes is the existing marriage void “ab initio” and subject to an annulment proceeding or voidable by either party and I suspect requiring a divorce decree.I apologize , this is outside my area because I am not a Domestic Relations Attorney.

  6. That’s great news for this pair.

  7. Marriage equality would sort this mess out.

    Marriage equality does not exist in either Ireland or the UK.

    An apartheid system of legal recognition for relationships will creat this mess.

    1. You are spot on Steve! Recognising gay marriage would simply make this mess go away.

  8. This is exactly the same as the British Columbia Government in Canada did 15 years ago. Thankfully they have now “Grown UP” and we csn stay together (married)

    1. I think I’m moving lol….

  9. Let us all look forward to the day when this tangled nightmare ends because sex and gender have no longer have any legal meaning in civilised countries except in terms of antidiscrimination law, and are considered to have only medical significance at best in the appropriate contexts for each individual.

  10. Transsexual people aim to be the new sex, not carry over every piece of heterosexual baggage they once had in there previous sex.

    There is no gay marriage in Ireland, so transexual people who are gay post sex reasignment surgery should not have a special right to same sex marriage, if gay people can not get married.

    They should only have the right to remain married if and when gay marriage is formally recognised at some future point in Ireland.

    Holding onto heterosexual priviledge from a heterosexual marriage after being post sex reasignment surgery, is just an excuse for camoflagued homophobia.

    That situation will only change when marriage is redefined as between two consenting adults, regardless of sex, social status, religion or other factors.

    If a person can not get there head around that, they should not go forward for sex reasignment surgery.

    1. “Holding onto heterosexual priviledge from a heterosexual marriage after being post sex reasignment surgery, is just an excuse for camoflagued homophobia.”
      Maybe they just love each other and value the marriage more than the states recognition of the transwoman’s gender.
      I’m just looking forward to the day when everyone gets over their homophobia and recognises gay marriage.

    2. Post the gender surgery of one party creates a same physical sex arrangement but it does not follow that either party’s sexual orientation has changed. Often, if the relationship is long standing, the relationship continues on a companionship rather than on a sexual basis. Specifically, gender reassignment surgery does not automatically create a gay or lesbian couple.

      I think that even folks who cannot understand the logic of your argument should be candidates for gender reassignment surgery if they experience gender identity disorder.

      1. Spot on Paula. I know several couples in this position. We still have the occasional “good time” but really my partner is not lesbian or even bi identified.

  11. It’s similar in Australia. You MUST have had srs and still be unmarried to have your birth certificate modified to state female.
    If you are married you can stay married but because of the gay marriage (which is not legal in Aus) they will make believe that you are still male. Someone tried to take them to court for discriminating against a person on the basis of marital status but the judge didn’t buy it although when you think about it that’s exactly what they are doing.
    Tp complicate it the ONLY grounds for divorce in Australia is irreconcilable differences causing you to separate. So to get gender recognition on your birth certificate, after srs, if you are still together with your pre-transition partner, you must perjure youself to obtain a divorce…..pretty crappy deal really but better than some.

    1. After long discussions with my partner we decided to stay married…….seems it means something after all :-)

      1. Gwen

        Yes, so did we decide to stay together, having been married 38 years. I did get an interim GRC a few years back but could bring myself to use it to end our marriage. Of course, if I had decided to use that certificate to end the marriage (its sole purpose), my spouse could not contest this.

        It is all terribly unfair and I am not sure how those in government responsible for the barbaric treatment of those in trans-affected marriages can sleep at night……

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