Another good example of US good governance.
Plenty of improvements that could be made.
Acknowledgement also from a Muslim that there are gay Muslims
Very very concerning at the use of the phrase cultural terrorism … are LGBT people really going to be at the forefront of a terrorist battle?
“Say your piece. Make a fist. You don’t have to be a straight to be a terrorist.” Love to all.
Yes. We could also be militant for tenderness.
But I’m guessing war, murdering people, torturing people, starving people is just fine then.
Nothing but homophobic hypocrites.
Look no further to see why the world and it’s humanity are slow at progressing.
Cheers Religion. You show yourself up Everytime!!
Can we get over the ‘religion’ perspective – every single story you bring it up.
I appreciate you have your own cross to bear (pun intended) but its getting wearing that you choose to bring every story around to the idea that ‘religion’ per se is responsible.
Its not ‘religion’ thats the problem in this story – its the bigots who use religion as an excuse.
Let me be clear – I am no fan of Religions myself either – I find that while they are essentially about becoming more spiritually aware, they are often nothing more than a cover for bigotry and small-mindedness. Often they are more intent on stopping their followers becoming more spiritually aware.
BUT – (and its a big ‘but’ as you can see! lol) – turning almost every single commentary you make on any subject into a tirade against Religion is daft and mostly not even relevant.
Th reason many of us point the finger at religion when commenting on homophobia is because pretty much all homophobia is rooted in Christian and Muslim dogma. It isn’t a case of trying to stretch some anti-religion agenda to fit every story. More a case of the religious never missing a chance to be homophobic, misogynist and otherwise bigoted.
I know a lot of homophobia can be established in some religious dogma. I know not all adherants are homophobic. I also have seen some of the most violent homophobia I have experienced personally or professionally from non-religious bigoted people usually also racists.
Not trying to let those dogmatic religious homophobes who are clearly out there off the hook, just want to make sure we don’t lose focus of the fact there are non-religious homophobes too
You may have seen and heard of homophobia from ‘non-religious people but I’m guessing those attitudes have come from someone religious, probably handed down the generations.
I would say that roughly 95% – 97% of all homophobic stems from religion regardless of it said person using is religious themselves.
You can’t have centuries of such hatred and discrimination and not expect it to filter down from person to person regardless of that persons own religions choices.
@Jock S Trap
I certainly have seen, heard and experienced homophobia by people who are not religious and never have been.
I would be very intrigued as to how you evidence your figure of 95-97% of homophobia being seated in religious mindsets or background … Care to explain?
It doesn’t take must to work out that religion somewhere in generations instills it’s bigotry down the line, so regardless of if the latest people to use it are religious or not it will be down to generations of bigotry and hatred.
Sadly things will never improve until religion becomes a minority.
When you say “religion” you imply Christian Islamic and Jewish (commentaries against homosexuals that come from the same sources…) the biblical the story of Sodom and Gomoroh that all three religions share as sacred texts and its interpretation as being against gay people. Many other religions also dont embrace equal rights for gay people, even the Church of England is split about it.
There are a minority of liberal Jewish, moderate Christian and even Islamic scholars who offer a different interpretation.
Sodom and Gomorah story is about rape and inhospitality of foreign strangers. It has nothing to do with same sex love yet it’s been contorted to be a Scriptural reprimand against homosexuality by people with a patriarchal polticical agenda. There are, of course, other Scriptures that are more obviously anti-gay such as the Levitical scriptures and the New Testament comments by Paul. These should be understood in the culture and context that they are written. The Bible is written by men who were very much influenced by their patriarchal cutural attitudes and limited scientific understanding. Paul was raised a very strict Jew and was certainly influenced by the negative Judaic views toward women and homosexuals.Progressive theological scholars are coming to a much different view than the historical religious negativity towards homosexuality, especially in light of current scientific studies to indicate Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity are inborn and not a lifestyle choice.
“Can we get over the ‘religion’ perspective”
Oh I’m sorry, I thought this story was about a Muslim group… Oh wait.. it is!!
No surprise then that hatred and homophobia follows then is there?
It affect us as a community esp Gay Muslims and those that are supportive but lets have no illusions, these are bigots Because of Religion.
They’re fine bombing each other and all those innocent people but love and peace….? Get out of here!!!
Exactly. Does anyone else remember what they do to the proponents of the anti-blasphemy law? I’m sorry, but in Pakistan, everything *is* about religion. It’s a rotting society and a failed state precisely because of religion. To say anything else would be either racist or nationalistic.
I agree with you that this clearly is a story with religious involvement and therefore commentary on views about religion may well be relevant.
I do think that sometimes there is a mentality on religious stories on here amongst some that is almost like bees attracted to honey in terms of the swarm mentality.
Yes, there are real groups for concern and vibrant views on religion.
I am concerned that there lacks balance and perspective both in terms of failing to have the same passion for non-religious homophobia, or a presumption that all homophobia is religious based (which has dangerously been suggested by some on PN) or the alienation of some who have faith who are either gay or accepting of LGBT equality (and vocal).
You can pretty much guarantee that with most of the planets ills, religion is not far behind for the causes.
btw, Good on the US embassy!!
‘Such people are the curse of society and social garbage’ –
sub-humans in glass temples shouldn’t throw stones!
Social garbage? What an amazing insight into a small mind, narrowed to the extreme to be able to say that.
“They don’t deserve to be Muslim…”
They don’t have a choice. The penalty for apostasy is death. Vile religion.
No they don’t deserve such hate, i would’nt wish islam on my worst enemy especially if someone was gay.
And yet was have Muslims trying to force their faith on us in ways not even Christianity do.
I don’t see how anyone who worships a paedophile bandit can call anyone else ANYTHING derogatory. These people are beyond insane. (Oh look. I’ve just been struck down by Allah. Not.)
It would be mature if everyone accepted religious faith for what it is: a mental illness.
My problem with that argument is that was the unsophisticated argument that was used against homosexuality in the 1950s – and some still use (certain Turkish government ministers etc)
True indeed, Stu.
But the object of our… ‘adoration’, shall we say, actually exists. :-)
or at the very least, there is usually evidence for our ‘adoration’
“The evidence is abundant”
No, I’m afraid it isn’t.
The evidence is absent I think you will find
@Troll. There is no science in the Koran. Attempts to prove that there is are just embarrassing. Truly embarrassing. Mohammed was a seventh century schizophrenic with no medication at his disposal. Luckily medication is available for Muslims today. And when all else fails, there are bombs for them. Lots and lots of bombs.
“so Allah seized them”
You mean like muhammed seized that 9 year old child and raped her?
Why do you venerate your Paedophile prophet Mohammed?
….you and I have sparred over this subject before, but i am still at a loss to know what is legitimate about belief, to a point and beyond of death and mayhem, in a total fiction and the illogical deference to it and those who claim to be the prophets of such rubbish.
We send people to mental hospitals and prison for less.
Please do your best to enlighten this mystified “thick mick”
I will try and work up a better rationale on this either on here or for another time when we have a discussion on this issue.
Its not that I believe the things these people do, its that I respect their right to believe those things (including the right to tell others what they believe – provided the others are happy to listen). I do not support a view that says they have a right to control, subjugate or dominate others (whether they share the same beliefs or not).
I can’t think of a good metaphor or comparison at the moment other than – most people will accept that marxism is a failed ideology. However, people are free to believe that marxism may be a good system. I dont believe it, I dont accept it and I think the evidence is contrary to that. In the same way there isnt significant evidence to support religious belief but people should be able to believe – that doesnt make them mentally ill (believing in something we cant prove or disprove).
Whilst they can have a right to believe, that doesnt mean they can infringe others rights and they must respect others and be seen to do so
That is what is lacking currently
Pakistan needs to look at itself very closely. To call lgbt related things cultural terrorism is a very dark message to send out.
Is this a backlash to America which is making slow steps forward on rights. Their relations have been strained ever since the Bin Laden operation.
I agree Adam, cultural terrorism (like to see the definition of that) sounds very worrying to me
Ah yes this is the Muslims and religious types I know. How does this tally with that peculiar survey we had last week?
““They don’t deserve to be Muslim or Pakistani”
Neither of which are any great accolade, so who are these cretins again?
I am concerned this will lead to gay activists in much more strident ways … some of that would be good, but some would be bad
Look who’s talking, Muslim terrorist who murder little boys for liking another boy. They say they are the religious leaders when they should call themselves the “Criminals who murder people they can not control” with their madness. The Muslims need to worry about the American Holy War to kill them off using Christian Military Crusaders today.
Well, all I can say is with the Christians on one side of us and the Muslims on the other, that’s one hell of a sandwich we’re in the middle of.
I guess that’s Pakistan off the holiday list for me then.
Last time I was there (working for UK government) I was told I was not welcome in Pakistan – not because I am gay but because I am British
Enoch is right in pointing out that in gay attraction there is something, i.e. another person, that actually exists. It can be demonstrated, whereas religious belief is irrational in that it cannot be proved or demonstrated. Therefore; it is an aberration of the mind, that is a mental illness. There can be no doubt about this. Religious belief is nonsense!
The problem you have though Neville is that I cant prove they dont exist either …
There may come a time where this becomes a view but right now I think it is a dangerous tactic for the LGBT communities to use in their debate about either sexuality or religion – it sounds unsophisticated, it sounds playground tactics (you said this about us, so we are going to say it about you) ….
it is impossible to prove a negative. Just look how much trouble they are having trying to contain antimatter. No, religion is well aware of it’s built-in get out of jail free card There will always be those mindless people who never quite left their GCSE philosophy course behind (“Does a tree make a sound when it falls and nobody hears it” and “does the light go off in the fridge when you shut the door”) and love to chime in with “but you cant prove [the sky-fairy] doesn’t exist”. Duh, you can’t prove I don’t sprout wings every night and fly through the sun harvesting neutrinos. Some of these “faith” things that claim to exist outside of proof can only be defeated by ignoring them. Nothing more.
I do sympathize with your argument – as someone who does not have faith myself.
I do think that when your belief is based on a belief process that actually proving it positively to someone who doesnt believe must be difficult.
You could use the say to describe some scientific hypotheses before they were proven (or disproven)
probably the same Muslim groups which are happy to accept monies from gay people in the form of aid or however else you wish to dress it up.
I don’t give to any charity that is ‘assisting’ Muslims. Anywhere. It’s just Jihad money.
Osama Bin Laden’s friends are a little moody lately. I guess they still didn’t get over their hero’s death.
He would have died from repetitive strain injury on his wrist eventually, anyway.
When the Americans buried bin laden at sea they apparently dressed him in west ham shirt so he’d go down quicker
LOL! I like it!
“Such people are the curse of society and social garbage.”
At least we don’t fly planes into buildings or treat women as second class citizens.
Or have atomic weapons dropped on us after picking another fight with India. Oops. That post is for next year! Sheesh.
“We support you, LGBT Pakistanis! You know, unless you want to claim asylum in the US or ever immigrate here and expect to have rights or take a stand against the government that we can’t actually support because we don’t really care, but we support you! High five!”
Islam and Muslims are so IRRATIONAL.
Need to take a good hard look at themselves and their religion.
It needs modernising and moderating. It is such an antiquated and backward religion. time to bring it into the 21st century.
I wonder if you can do a CP in the British embasy in Pakistan with a national from Pakistan or whether Pakistan doesn’t allow this?
Well technically the British embassy is British soil
TrollFromGaza, I see you do not care to address my previous post. Why is it that all the most fanatical people who belong to the Abrahamic religions are so obsessed with sex, and so determined to tell their god what it/she/he ought to think?
Really, if you are going to be manically religious, at least get a decent grip on your religion and don’t just accept whatever version is given to you.
I personally wonder why people feel that an all powerful god would be the slightest bit interested in how or with whom one has sex, as long as one causes no harm. It is as absurd as saying that such a god would wish us to part our hair only on the the right, or only write with our right hand.
The poor trollfromGaza is seriously mentally ill and should be in a lunatic asylum. Oh for the days when the crusaders played football with their enemies’ heads after the siege of Acre! The debate between faith and reason is interesting and was common between Anglicans and Roman Catholics in the seventeenth century. However, we are not in that century. We exist in a time when science, empirical evidence and demonstrable scientific theory matter, and the nonsense of religion with its beliefs is on the same level as fairy tales.
Should be in a lunatic asylum?
I was under the impression he already was, hence the comments.
Surely someone under heavy1 medication could come out with that load of crap!?
Oh? When? Please provide an ETA.
Mohammed is a dead mental patient, bandit and paedophile. He’s not coming for anyone, fool. Allah is a figment of your imagination, the twisted alter-ego of your paedo prophet. Islam is crumbling from within, as you realise the dark lie that you’re living under. And that’s why you’re making so much noise. By the way, shouldn’t you be sheltering from enlightened Israeli soldiers shooting your raggedy, future-less ass?
Would that be Mohammed from the corner shop, or the post office, or the greengrocers, or maybe the takaway up the street, or Mohammed that nice bloke who drives the taxie cab? As for infidel I would rather be an infidel than a brainwashed fk-wit like you any day love.
“Mohammed is coming for you”
Lock up your children!!
I think that my imaginary friend sounds a lot nicer than your’s.
It’s a pity that Islam has been so influenced by Wahabism, which, in its current form (quite unlike anything which al Wahhab himself would have recognised), is more concerned with cultural prejudices than with the Quran (Koran). Muhammad himself had a homosexual in his household, and expelled him only when it was found he was not truly thus.
If it was good enough for Muhammad, I am surprised that modern day clerics find it is not good enough for them. Presumably they know better than their prophet!
Shouldn’t you be somewhere praying to your invisible friend and not skulking around some gay website?
Is it “Oink”?
Brainwashed moronic Moslem fool. Do you notice the amount of hate, arrogance, and anger in that comment? It appears that many followerrs of Islam only learn hate and intolerance rather than Love.
I do know Muslim people who are loving, open minded, kind and good people. It’s sad that these hateful ones get any publicity.
Even more deranged than Rich
I think Mohammed would have been into Spandex big time if she were alive now. It always suits the smaller figure, I feel. And he wouldn’t have had any problems trying to disguise his bulge. Size-wise, it was only fitting for a six year old, anyway. Sad, bad and crazy, crazy, crazy.
“Will the infidel defames the Glorious name Pakistan.”
Pakistan is just America’s bitch at the moment. They can land and do what they want in that country. Still, at elast you can sit back and enjoy the Big Macs LOL!
It is Rich under his new fractured personae fkwit from nowhere,
Stu, I’m liking you more and more and more! Not only do you post well-researched and well-thought-out posts… but you’re also showing real spunk and anger here! You GO, boy!! x
But it is Rich, surely, just pretending he’s Muslim, as we suspected.
I mean the last avatar pic he used yesterday was of Mohammad.
Now seriously, what real Muslim uses a pic of Mohammad?
As we all guessed no matter what the name, it’s still a fake!
Shouldn’t you be out sniffing some dogs hole? After all your lot are always scrounging for food, money, and anything else you can get hold of?
Shouldn’t you at least try to find out how to spell caliphate?
But you need his money, because you can’t support your wives and children. As I never tire of saying, you are hysterical bitches with brittle beards.
And lo, Allah was flushed down the great British khazi…
So you dont require our trade, the skills in science that we exported you, our medical escorts to repatriate your citizens who become unwell in the UK … etc etc
Arrogant F***wit …
Troll is gay. Troll wants cock. Troll NEEDS cock. Cut the girl some slack.
While biting the Western hand that feeds you. Is there a Pakistani who can actually sustain himself and his family without outside help? Weak bitches with silly beards, every single inbred one of you.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much!
Why do men of low intelligence take vengeance on those who defile further the reviled name of Allah and the black reputation of the desert paedophile Mohammed (Pieces of Bacon Be Upon Him)? Why don’t these fantastic heavenly beings you bend over for do their own dirty work themselves? Because they don’t exist, you penniless imbecile! I laugh at you and your religious illness.
“We take vengeance upon all who defile the name of Islam and his Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)”
I think a better use of that PBUH acronym is Paedophile Bitch & Useless Hick.
So, where’s the “vengeance”? I’m waiting.
(I’m also laughing at you)
I can’t help laughing being that yesterday you actually used a pic of Mohammad as your avatar pic.
You are such a fake!!
May I suggest with a avatar your using today suggests you may be in the wrong place looking for cock!
Ah, I get it, so your go to Fire then?
Though Gaza was a bit way off.
If thats the nightclub your going to, well, I’ll say no more!!
Yeah, you god is as useless as you are, Troll. I’m still laughing at you….
Let’s hope his wrath is a good as his Scotch broth and every bit as yummy as his triple cheese bacon burger with relish eh? I think than not all the muslim men are homophobic after all so many of them walk about in the UK in drag all the time don’t they?
“You will be the first to know Allah’s wrath.”
Well, I’m still here, aren’t it? Oh, dear. Does that mean he doesn’t exist? Run along, I’m sure you have books to eat.
Lets for one moment step into the madness that you permeate. Assuming that Allah does exist and that he has wrath he wishes to show and that you interpretation of that is correct. (All of which I believe to be incorrect!) But assuming so, why on earth would radical53 be the first to know his wrath, and why would you be the person to know that? Hmmm?
I would have thought many Muslim scholars would predict different targets for Allah …..Hmmm?
Face it you’re a fraud, and an obsessed on at that
….Seems to me that the only people suffering “the wrath of allah” are muslims themselves. The awful floods, earthquakes and unending drought and hunger that befalls most of Pakistan, Iraq, Iran and Afganistan every year would seem to say to “ye who believe” that something is wrong with your belief…..methinks!
Funny how often Allah seems to require the assistance of Western inventions like machineguns and planes these days, isn’t it?
Dammit, broke my rule and fed the confounded troll – !
I’m bored of you now, haven’t you got some freeway to play on?
Yeah, me too. It was amusing for a while. Now its just silliness. Notice when he is here Rich isn’t? Like Clarke Kent, except without the super powers, the looks, the brains, the education, the civility, the humanity….
At least with the $3000000000 you can all wash yourself there. No excuses now.
I agree, TFG’s ramblings were intially amusing, but now there are the mindless monotonous musings of a mad man
Nothing new there then
Stop making me laugh.
After seeing that ‘homosexual heathen’ bit, I’m now having to mop up the tea from my desk.
Oh bring your whistles dears!! Sounds like a party!!
Yes, I agree…. its Rich trying another foolish tactic. He’s really quite damaged.
It probably is Rich
But become even more demented
It has gone beyond pity now, the psychiatric hospital need to take his laptop or iphone off him
Well, if its a gay party and a chance of a few gilt ridden cuddles with boys, then TroIlFromGaza will be there…. all the closets of the rainbow! LOL!
I’m betting the likes of TFG will in the cubical most of the night.
What is he doing here?
Doing what most fictitious entities do:- nothing.
He does nothing very noisily doesnt he … without actually saying anything …
@Trollfromgazza / Rich
I agree, sums up this schzoid personality of a person
Not forgetting our benefits… oops sorry!!
You lie Rich – you are wrong – you’re not wanted here either
“The Qu’a’ran is the immutable word of Allah” – well, if this be so, perhaps you should find out more about it. As I said in a previous post,
” Muhammad himself had a homosexual in his household, and expelled him only when it was found he was not truly thus.
If it was good enough for Muhammad, I am surprised that modern day clerics find it is not good enough for them. Presumably they know better than their prophet!”
“Your pathetic recourse to reason” – are you saying that your god is without reason?
The level of sophistication of religious discourse seen amongst the more – let me put it politely – fervid followers of Islam would certainly have disgusted the mediaeval Islamic scholars. They did not consider that reason was to be put aside when considering their religion, but perhaps you put yourself above those learned gentlemen?
“Those who Know the Truth have this in the Heart”
Ironic then that whilst you fight and discriminate, wasting you life finding yourself for who your not, most Gay men, myself included, Lesbians etc already have that peace and comfort in being who we are.
We don’t feel the need to hate, deny or discriminate to find ourselves because we are ourselves and not pretending to be anything else.
It’s a shame that you not only feel the need to waste your own life but clearly you feel the need to wreck everybody elses but then I guess that comes with the jealousy of seeing most of the LGBT community completely at peace with ourselves.
Only the likes of you feel the need to stop it because all your about is hatred.
If you can’t get your head out of the sewer that is entirely your own problem.
Most of all, though, stop pretending your a Muslim, it is insulting to Muslims, even I can see that.
I find it interesting – as I was reading the comments of TrollFromGaza, I found that some comments were exactly the same as those of fanatical, right-wing Christian evangelicals I have encountered. These people give the religions they purport to believe in a bad name. It seems, be they Christian of Muslim, their religion is merely a vehicle for their prejudices.
It is interesting as well if you look at western history what has hapened to those religions that try to dominate in the way of Roman catholicism or Islam. Look at the birth of America by the pilgrim father, and at for example henry the eighth in Britain, and the removal and destruction of the Roamn Catholic church and monastries. There is no history with Islam only because Islam has just become a presence.
You are dereanged, Stu. I am not part of this forum :)
Stu & Will & Johnny are company of deranged paranoidal homosexuals. Doctors! Take care for these psychopaths! Thet are danger to society!
Oh, go away.
“Stu & Will & Johnny are company of deranged paranoidal homosexuals. Doctors! Take care for these psychopaths! Thet are danger to society!”
LOL! Yeah, right. Sorry, peasant, its people like me who pay for your to collect the dole and get that medication you can’t afford.
Oh not anymore your pseudonym has been removed!
LOL! Lets hope the other remaining “personalities” follow suits soon.