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Poll says Muslims are ‘proud’ of Britain’s gay rights

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  1. Is Sunny having a laugh? You can agree that homosexuality ought not be tolerated but think it’s great that homosexuality isn’t just tolerated but accepted? Does he believe the twaddle he’s saying?

    1. staircase2 27 Jun 2011, 5:07pm

      Thats not what the quote said….
      READ, people!
      “Muslims can agree that Islam does not tolerate homosexuality, while celebrating gay rights enshrined in the law.”
      ‘does not tolerate’ is an observation – It’s like saying ‘Im lactose intolerant’ – Its just a statement of fact: it doesn’t say I don’t eat cheese – just that my body cannot digest it properly….
      We all KNOW that modern day Islam ‘does not tolerate’ homosexuality – but that has not always been the case within Islam and many Muslim countries still turn a blind eye to much gay sexual behaviour.
      Its an interesting statement – one that should be thoughtfully considered.

        1. Wait fir stu to come to the mosqus defence

        2. This time, however, it has only taken just over a week for the mosque’s bad faith to emerge. “The day after tomorrow, 29 June, it welcomes to its premises an organisation called Sex and Relationship Education Islamic (SRE Islamic), one of whose main purposes is to campaign for “the unacceptability of homosexuality which is often portrayed as a lifestyle choice.” That’s a quote from the first sentence of SRE Islamic’s statement of values.”
          (Andrew Gilligan)

          Doh! do I really need to add that for a person of homosexual orientation the “homosexual lifestyle” would be the only appropriate lifestyle choice.

        3. No, James! I condemn the mosque. I held back on the last thread about them because I didnt have evidence that they had breached their promise but I said if they had we should condemn them vigorously – and thats what I think we should do. They should be condemned for their double standards and failure to resolve homophobic issues at the Mosque and failure to install a real sense of equality and honesty.
          I don’t think that condemning one mosque means condemning all Muslims. This mosque – yeah it deserves condemnation and public condemnation at that.

          1. Rich (original) 27 Jun 2011, 11:10pm

            You are a piece of excriment, Stu…

          2. Projecting again are we Rich

        4. No surprise there then Pavlos. I did say last week don’t hold your breath before they had another anti gay speaker in, and the usual h h h h happy optimists derided me as usual. The people that think they are optimists on here (mentioning no names cause I cant be bothered getting into one with fools) are just deluded at the scale of the problem of homophobia in islam and christianity. They suffer from some type of religious stockholm syndrome.

          1. @Eddy two

            I also can’t be bothered into getting into a debate with someone who can not see or appreciate that there are some in the Christian faith and Muslims who are supportive and that by ridiculing we lose those allies which help us resolve the attack on us by the homophobes in those religions.
            You might not care about the future and the extent of the problem in Islam and Christianity – but I do, and I want to solve it smartly and with integrity.

          2. Cheers Eddy two they’re always ready to tell us we’re wrong jackasses

          3. ignorance is bliss , thats why they are soo optimistic .Maybe we would be like that if we was in some bubble wrapped delusion.

          4. rapture this is what i hum when i reply to some people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMzliv0WE5A

          5. @Rapture

            Ignorance is bliss. I know of real homophobia – raping someone to try and punish them, holding them captive for psychological torture, repeated victimisation by purulent and repeated drip by drip offensive language and more much more and some so heinous I wouldn’t put it on a public message board. I know of this from working in Uganda, working with survivors of rape and supporting a friend who had repeated homophobic attack (from a non religious BNP member) in West Yorkshire. I challenge and I condemn – where and when it is justified.
            You do not know what I have seen, done, heard and who I have supported – and how I have personally had trauma – I don’t want sympathy or any praise – but your claim of ignorance is bliss is ignorant itself. I would not wish on you some of the things I have experienced and encountered – and I find your attitude and sense of debate contemptible – so if I did wish it on anyone it would be someone like you.

          6. @stu you do not wish on me some of your sob stories ,but if you were to wish your worst on someone , it would be me, make up your mind. Careful, Now you are dropping the nice guy facade , getting a glimpse into just how bitter you really are.

          7. @stu sounds like average homophobia in sarf london estate, that you seem so unaware of. You don’t have to go to uganda to know of lgbt from london ugandan community that experience homophobia . You should stop being so insular , attempt to get some insight into the diverse communities in london.

          8. @Rapture

            I have no facade but sometimes justifiable frustration at the manipulaton of what I say on here.

            I said I wish you no malice … and I mean that.

            I said if I did it would be to someone like you … and I mean that – your attacks on me have been personal and arrogant – and if I was to become reactionary in a significant way then understandably I would respond to someone like you. Thats not my style …

            It must be awful to be in a position where the only you can further your argument is to misrepresent someone who actually supports some of what you say but urges caution overall.

          9. @Rapture

            More presumption about me.

            I am far from insular – would like to experience more of more communities in the UK and globally but having experienced, Tyneside, Durham, Leeds, Bradford, Manchester, Berkshire, South London, Dorset, Brighton, Uganda, Pakistan, Iran, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Turkey, Spain and others for several weeks (minimum) each – I think I have a good appreciaton of different communities – I could always learn more and have a greater understanding – so could you …

          10. @Stu:

            thanks for giving us a fair insight into your struggle with homophobia…

            and thanks especially for the work you’ve accomplished in Uganda…

        5. @James!

          I think your attitude and polarized view is wrong. Your defence of LGBT rights is admirable. There are other of your views which I agree with – and am happy to say so. However, saying all Muslims behave in a particular way is like saying all Methodists are tea total – its simply not true.
          If we want to have a more cohesive society that respects the rights of LGBT people then we need to have as many LGBT and non-LGBT people as we can on side. That does not mean not criticizing, condemning or campaigning against homophobia – far from it.
          Learn the lessons of the N Irish troubles – its by working with those that attack you and bringing them to see you views that we achieve a better place – but the condemnation of violence and bigotry needs to be maintained.

          1. what a surprise stu the anti gay mascochist says im wrong.

            Im not attacking muslims or burning mosques the first and second generation seem to live and let live this lot are going out of their way to cause trouble. why don’t you go to a muslim site and do the same critique?

          2. What a surprise James! persists in misrepresentation.

            Masochism … not my sexual thing thanks.

            Anti gay – He’s having a laugh! I am more pro LGBT than many – particularly some of the negativity on these threads from many towards LGBT people.
            I don’t go to a Muslim site because I’m not Muslim and this critique is on a gay site – and I am gay. Strange that some people don’t get that.

            James! may not be burnign mosques or attacking Muslims etc – but he is hardly helping create a situation where those Muslims who are supportive of LGBT people (and this report suggests there are many more than we thought – and thats James! real bug-bear) feel able to build on that and become more confident and win other Muslims round. His attack worsens our position in the battle and makes us subject to more attack from the extremists in the Muslim faith – he makes us targets.

          3. oh please that is such a pisstake you troll

          4. @James!

            One thing I am not is a troll

            You may not like my opinion – nor do I like your attitude.

            I do think your intransigence damages LGBT rights and my opinion on that stands whether you think its sarcastic or not.

    2. This poll means nothing without a further calibration question:

      1) I am proud of how britain treats gay people…..
      2) I think in Britain, gay people
      a) are treated with full acceptance and equal rights
      b) are protected and treated fairly
      c) …. I have no thoughts on the matter
      d) are barely tollerated and freely ridiculed
      e) live substantial amounts of their lives in fear of their safety

      You see what I’m getting at. You can be proud of our record and think this because you believe our record is terrible….. I think Britain is still a D and as such, I’m not proud of our stance towards gay people.

  2. “I am proud of how Britain treats gay people” is so woolly and ambiguous as to be meaningless. I’m not even certain how I would answer it. It says nothing at all about “gay rights”. I have no quarrel with the argument that Muslims are no more or no less bigoted than Christians, but this exercise doesn’t shed any light on the question.

    1. @Figfest

      It may be wooly and ambiguous but its better than the rampant homophobia that is often associated with Muslims.

      1. Am I supposed to be grateful? Fcuk them we were here first.

        At least the christians aren’t physically attacking us

        1. @James!

          Nor are most Muslims physically attacking us

          Some Christians are physically attacking LGBT people as are some people without a faith

          As for “we were here first”, such racism and arrogance really has no place in a modern successful society. Many Muslims are second, third generation Britons – who are proud to be British and more proud of being British than many of the AngloSaxon Brits who suffer from apathy with regards their patriotism.

          1. actually all the anti gay comment recently have been from muslims. Olly in east london got stabbed and nearly died so don’t tell me what i know. You always defend our attackers

          2. @James!

            There you go exaggerating again.

            Such an open mind “don’t tell me what I know” – openness to another viewpoint, which is the foundation of debate, just doesn’t seem to be your strong point.

            Your bullying and intransigence on this and other issues won’t change my opinion – evidence might …

            As for all the anti gay comment being from Muslims – just look at some of the comment from the Christian Institute recently and you will find how incorrect that comment is.

            I I assume the assault on Olly you talk about is the 2008 horrific attack in Shoreditch where his spinal cord was severed following multiple stab wounds. It is horrific and should be condemned – as should all attacks of violence on LGBT and other people. I do not see the actions of a small number of teenagers (however heinous the crime) being an indicator that all who (may or may not) share their faith are the same.

            You will find I criticise and I urge caution where stereotyping is happening or conclusions …

          3. … are being jumped to, in equal measure.

            Of course, because your opinion is “always right” and you don’t need to consider others views because if they are different to yours the will always be wrong – you won’t see that as being balanced but see it as being defensive of people (who may or may not be homophobes).

    2. I quite agree,but these ‘polls’ really only serve to make we in the LGBT ‘community’ feel ‘safer’,as if all in the garden is rosey & we’re all rubbing along together quite nicely.When really the opposite is closer to the truth.

  3. @George – Sunny said people can agreed that “Islam does not tolerate homosexuality” – not that they think it ought not to be tolerated. It’s also possible to disagree with people doing something, but approve of the way people who do choose to do it are treated, which I think is what he’s getting at.

    1. I think Sunny’s words are very carefully chosen to try to open up that ambiguity. However, if you agree with a philosophy of intolerance, then you can hardly claim to be pleased about something that goes well beyond tolerance.That’s hypocrisy.

      1. @George

        I would suggest that this survey may give more credence to the possibility that like the Christian faith there are some Muslims who both accept and tolerate homosexuality. It would need more investiagtion to determine this.

        I would argue neither faith is clear in its acceptance or intolerance of homosexuality – and the fact there is evidence both of homophobia and acceptance in both religions suggests there are differences in opinion of those who profess those faiths.

        I also would suggest that it is possible not to like something someone does (although I struggle with those who do not accept LGBT people) but still endorse the rights of those who engage in the activity those people do. I do not endorse war crimes but I do feel they should be afforded justice when/if prosecuted through a fair trial (for example)

        1. We need look no further than Parvez Sharma’s documentary film, “A Jihad for Love”, for first hand evidence that ‘some Muslims … accept and tolerate homosexuality’.

          Also, Parvez Sharma, himself a gay Muslim, takes us deep within the plight of homosexuals in Islam.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Jihad_for_Love

          1. It is an interesting film that highlights the real challenges that many gay Muslims encounter and in some cases deal with well.

  4. yeah Proud that Britain still treats all gays as second class citizens – but expects us to pay for everything that hetros enjoy – in South London tolerance does not exist on the streets – so cut the bull crap – tolerance is not even a word superstitious faith types understand.

    1. Tell me bout it, i grew up in crappy south london, its the pits. Gay hate is an epidemic there. Britain may have equality laws but on road in sarf london you may as well be in uganda/iran if u lgbt. This is just another ridiculous poll with no concise view.

      1. @Rapture

        Well I can guarantee that in Iran and Uganda there would be no gay bars/clubs – I think of the Two Brewers, the Vauxhall scene, Kazbah, Little Apple, The Bird in Hand in Croydon etc etc

        Nor would there be any gay saunas in Uganda or Iran – there are at least 4 in south London

        Nor would there be gay social groups –
        a quick check on google came up with South London gay bridge group, South London Gays, London Titans FC, Gay Camberwell – and that was a simple dip in the internet

        Nor would there be many obvious cruising grounds in Uganda or Iran – there are several in South London

        Nor would there be LGBT friendly police officers in Iran or Uganda – every borough has at least one LGBT liaison officer

        So its the same as Uganda and Iran in south London – hardly! Thats an insult to the people of south London.

        1. Whateva! obviously you are going to be predictable in your complacency. a tiny number of gay bars does not change my view, i was talking bout on road anyhow ,it’s notoriously hostile to out lgbt to anyone with basic perception. Many in south london do not seek services of lgbt police officers cause they either distrust the police or there is worse threat of retribution for being labelled a snitch . If peeps in south london are insulted , maybe they should move someplace more civilised oh yea they do when they can afford to .Anyhow you are entitled to your view and to mine.

          1. staircase2 27 Jun 2011, 5:11pm

            ‘Whateva!’……….? lol (with an ‘a!’) lol
            I’ve lived in ‘South London’ all my life and I can honestly say that I feel safe being an out gay man here. I also know several out gay couples who quite happily live side by side with their str8 neighbours.
            Not sure what you mean about ‘on road’ either – what exactly are you doing that is so dangerous? lol

          2. @Rapture

            Call me complacent if you like – but your extreme description to what you perceive as a lack of gay friendliness in south London is about as accurate as saying China is the bastion of human rights. To compare it to Uganda and Iran is ridiculous in the extreme. Well as a gay man whose ex boyfriend of 4 years lives in south London – yes at times (like anywhere) I exercised caution in my actions etc – personal safety awareness anywhere is a wise thing – however, I snogged my boyfriend in the street, walked hand in hand with him and was invited to his neighbours parties etc as a couple – never once was I assulted or subject to homophobic abuse. Nor was I arrested as I may have been in Iran or Uganda -merely for being gay.
            You are entitled to your view as I am to mine. You are entitled to call me complacent – I am entitled to view you as pessismistic and an exaggerator.

          3. @staircase Well if u don’t know what on road means and you allegedly live in south london all your life , you must be lying or have a very insular existence to not know what everyday used slang means. you must be out of touch with whats going on hence your view is irrelevant to me. You don’t sound like an out gay man more like a simpleton, who is amused by just about anything, who uses lol in every comment. u a bludclot or someit?

          4. rapture

            he’s like stu been everywhere done everything always trying to supress our opinions. They’re anti gay ignore em

          5. @stu so your experience is subjective to that of a visitor to the area, and irrelevant to mine, but i’m very pleased for you that you can have a sheltered, fluffy , positively innacurate view on this, but then again it is your ex boyf who lived in south london so no surprises there..

          6. @James!

            I havent been everywhere or done everything … even though I have a wide and varied experience (possibly more than you possibly not) and am prepared to discuss it and use it as evidence and explanation in my opinions; I am aware that I don’t know everything and I learn from sharing my opinions and being persuaded – not by being abused or insulted (as some resort to on here as a form of debate).
            I certainly don’t want to suppress your opinion – condemn them when they are racist or abusive – argue against them when I disagree – agree with them when I do (and I have agreed with you a few times – and you have thanked me for it in the past, not that you seem to remember) – and be willing to be persuaded I am wrong if there is verifiable evidence. The fact is on a debate thread people will put various opinions – some will be wrong, some will be right – but most will have some degree of merit.
            I will continue to confront your arrogance and opinions which I consider to be wrong, …

          7. … I would expect you (and others) to hold me to scrutiny. If you have a problem with me doing that – hey thats your problem – these are comment threads and thats my understanding of their purpose, to discuss, debate and persuade.

          8. Stu wants verifiable evidence. ok you just keep telling all the commentators you disaree with that their experiences didn’t happen and they are wrong. We have nothing to worry about

          9. @James!

            It goes both ways – rapture says my experience is wrong, but it is my experience.
            I have never said anyones experience is wrong in any event – I have said there is another side to the story and that it is not as polarised as some of the views which are expressed.
            There are some things that are subjective and where personal experience will inform our opinions and decision making.
            There are also ways of evidencing what your subjective opinion is in some areas by verifiable fact – although not in every instance. The fact that opinions are subjective does demonstrate that they are opinions. This is a debate forum – get used to people disagreeing with you – as muchas I am not always right, neither are you …

          10. @stu, so you want to “persuade”, what a bizarre choice of wording. this is not some christian brainwashing site of some religious whose side you most undoubtedly would be able to appreciate.

          11. @Rapture

            Choose to believe whatever you want about me (I really don’t care what you think about me) – the fact remains I do not have a faith and I want LGBT rights to remain. I also recognise the historical accuracy that most of the major battles (and winning LGBT equality is a massive battle we must win) have been won through persuasion, dialogue and seeking agreement. Yes, in some of those battles there have been violent skirmishes where one or another side has won temporarily but they still require settlement and resolution. This battle is no different and we need to win our allies. If you are too short sighted to not see that – thats your call, and the battle will be prolonged because people (understandably and for justifiable reason) harbour bitterness and resentment – and then target at entire groups when only some are guilty.

          12. “The object of oratory alone is not the truth, but persuasion.”
            —Macauley

        2. @Rapture
          So your opinion is also subjective.
          As for being a visitor (a virtually permanent one for nearly 2 years – living in my own flat for less than an average of 2 nights a week for the whole 2 years). Also having a number of friends in Brixton, Camberwell, Croydon, Mitcham and other parts of south London – I feel able to form an opinion.
          It doesnt matter to me whether you agree or even accept that I have an experience and opinion – it is my experience – yes, its subjective but its a real experience based on not being assaulted, homophobically insulted or distressed in any way by anyone regarding me being gay whilst in south London. I have one friend in south London who has experienced more than a snide comment here and there (which I have experienced in other places)
          Clearly my experience is not your experience- it does not make it any less valid. As for the Iran and Uganda comparison – its laughable.

          1. @Rapture
            If you knew me, then you would say my life is far from fluffy or sheltered ….

          2. Well you definitely sound like a sheltered optimist , which ironically makes you quite a negative person as you are not capable to accept truths. And don’t assume what i would think of you if i “knew” you as i would not want such an affliction.

          3. @james You hit the nail on the head with that un. i give no serious consideration to fence sitters.

          4. Theres nothing funny about homophobia , if you find it laughable , then you are only showing what an insidious bigot you really are.

          5. @Rapture

            An optimist finds solutions recognising a problem and seeks to solve it.

            A pessimist recognises a problem and says there is no solution.

            Without optimists (like Churchill, Martin Luther King, Harvey Milk and Mandela) we would never have achieved some of the successes we have in the past.

            Optimists are not blind to problems, evil and things that are wrong – and perceptive optimists will recognise that and seek to condemn and punish where appropriate.

            I don’t really care what you would think about me. You may lash out at my perceiving what you may think about me – it doesn’t bother me. I am still entitled to think what I think about you or anyone else, much the same as you are about me or anyone else. You can’t stop it – in the same way that I can’t stop you. I however, seek to be open minded and discuss and seek solutions. You ridicule, try to offend (unsuccessfully in my case) and seem to refuse to try to find solutions.

          6. @Rapture

            Clearly you are deliberately misrepresenting me or not reading properly. I am not and would not laugh at homophobia. I am laughing at you and your ridiculous, crazy, wrong view that South London is anything like Iran or Uganda when it comes to homophobia. Thats just belittling the LGBT people in Iran and Uganda – and that is offensive.

          7. its all relative stu I know someone who had to have a police escort out his south london council flat and ended up committing suicide. Until you lived someone life stop belittling their exxperience

          8. @James!

            Again it goes both ways – you belittle my experience.

            You also belittle the fact that there are gay Muslims – and their experience.

            I do know of horrors in the UK re homophobia. I have been involved in escorting someone suffering homophobia out of their premises when in the police.

            At least in the UK the police will support the victim and escort them out (and if they wish investigate the offences) unlike Iran or Uganda.

            At least in the UK you can declare your sexuality to your doctor without fear of the secret police coming to arrest you afterwards.

            At least in the UK a gay community group can meet in a bar, community building etc and usually not suffer attack or harassment. There can be no such meetings in Syria, Iran, Soloman Islands and many other places/

          9. “virtually” ? do you live there or not? Essentially what you are saying is that you’re not a native londoner maybe thats why u got rose tinted specs on.

          10. @Rapture

            I lived there for 2 years 5 days a week on average sometimes more – almost permanent

            Regardless I do not have to repeatedly justify my reasoning to you. I have not asked you for repeated explanations of your particular areas of south London you are well versed in or when you live/lived there from and to

            Your experience is yours and it will colour your judgement and mine is mine. I accept yours is as you say, you seem to suggest mine is not as I portray it.

            Mine is a valid experience – do not undermine it – it doesnt change its validity and just makes you look foolish

          11. @stu i view you as insincere and a fantasist, so i am going to undermine your commentary.

          12. @Rapture

            You can believe what you like about me. I know my sincerity and my integrity. I know my experience, I clearly don’t know yours. If you attempt to undermine – feel free, I shall respond because I will not let false comments about me go unchallenged – not because it angers, upsets or offends me. Merely because I have a personal of justice.
            You clearly choose to deliberately misrepresent me. You can play that game if you want. I’m not playing games – I am seeking to be balanced, seek improvements in LGBT rights and challenge what I see as inappropriate or incorrect comments.
            If you don’t like it – tough. I ain’t stopping. I’m resilitant and stubborn. However, I am persuadable that I am wrong when someone uses reasoning that is compelling – It seems you don’t like a sense of perspective.

          13. I’ve been harassed, had people try and pick fights with me all sorts because of my sexuality in my home city …….. Oh wait thats leeds! There’s homophobia everywhere it is not special to south london or anywhere else. Get over this bleeding heart view of london its not that bad and is actually quite safe for most places yes in the rough places maybe its not so safe however it’s the same in Halifax or Bradford or anywhere thats a big city.

          14. @Hamish

            Well said!

            South London may have some rough places, but so does Berkshire (try some of the sink estates in Slough or Bracknell), so does Brighton, so does Newcastle, Bradford, Manchester (Moss-side anyone), Swansea, Bristol and everywhere! The reality is that homophobia can occur everywhere. Legally we are more protected in the UK (including South London) than most other countries. Culturally we are more accepting in the UK (including South London than most other countries) and things are improving further in the UK.
            If the UK was such a tyranical homophobic place – why would gay people from overseas want asylum here?

  5. Ghassan Yonis 27 Jun 2011, 4:13pm

    Unexpected result! Interesting!

    1. My feelings exactly… most interesting.

  6. How can you post a headline like “Poll says Muslims are ‘proud’ of Britain’s gay rights” and then go on to quote a figure that shows that MOST of them actually aren’t???

    1. How did you get that from the article only 10% disagreed with the statement

      1. I presume from the stats that 9% were unsure or did not answer the question …

        The combined total of those who disagreed or strongly disagreed was 44.8% which is less than the 47% who agreed … I think its very surprising news – a good sign – but more needs to be done …

  7. Amazing. The muslim community must have had an epiphany since 2009 when not one of the 1,001 muslims polled thought that homosexuality was morally acceptable. This must mean the mosques will start telling those who go that the koran and hadith are wrong, that mohammmmmmed got it wrong. This must also mean that gay men can go into mosques and be accepted and they won’t try and tell them that it is morally unacceptable anymore. Yeah right, then we all woke up from a fluffy dream and realised the poll was a load of shlt.

    1. staircase2 27 Jun 2011, 5:14pm

      This is nonsense, Eddy.
      Its just a poll!
      Just like that last one was ‘just a poll’
      Polls are ‘the truth’ – at best they’re a REFLECTION of the truth.
      And I think, politically, this is an interesting turn of events.
      (Plus actually mindsets CAN change over night – who knows – Eastenders may have had an influence (that is after all one of the very reasons why they write soaps in the first place)

    2. staircase2 27 Jun 2011, 5:17pm

      Gay men ALREADY go into mosques Eddy! They may or they may not be out but theyre still THERE.
      Plus as far as my (very limited) understanding of The Koran is concerned, there is nothing or very little concerning being gay – maybe someone else could fill us in :o)

      1. Aswell there is quite a few liberal mosques like in any religion which will allow homosexuality etc.

        1. Where are they? , give us details ? and what made you come to that conclusion , what was your experience in these mosques that you feel they “allow” homosexuality?

  8. I have no problem with people, irrespective of religion, opposing marriage equality as long as those we elect support it as a civil right, apart from what their personal views may be, religious or otherwise. I sincerely hope David Cameron can separate his views in much the same manner and the majority of the government for that matter, to do the right thing.

  9. This shows what I’ve been saying for years. Muslims can separate their personal views from their political ones, and recognize that in a liberal democracy everybody is entitled to equal rights. They’re demonized by the media but ultimately, the Muslim community doesn’t pose even half the threat towards the gay community that is assumed.

    1. Nutter

      I guess its that same thought process that allows muslims to sell alcohol. They will say wht they need to to ensure they can continue with their conversion. Wait until the somalis get established in the next few generations

      1. Glass is less than half empty today then, James!??

        1. You take every oppourtunity to defend our attackers face it you hate gay people

          1. @James!

            I love gay people. I am not defending attackers at all. I have never, and never will defend attackers. You misrepresent me.

          2. Rider – I love some gay people …

            Some are opinionated, arrogant, vexacious, intolerant, racist, boring, unpleasant, violent, aggressive, smelly …

            Don’t like them

            But supportive, honest, friendly, agreeable, articulate, interesting, open minded gay people … well, potential boyfriend material …

          3. I’m convinced

          4. @James!

            Your stereotyping of me and pigeon holing me as a defender of those who attack, really doesnt worry me or offend me.

            Saying I hate gay people makes me laugh. I am not self loathing. I love being gay.

            You know, the simple fact is that just because I see things from a different stance to you and condemn some of your more virulent comments does not mean I defend anyone who attacks either the LGBT communities or others. If you can’t see that then I pity you.

          5. Agreed, so much for solidarity in the gay community with peeps like stu around , who proclaims to understand the impact of homophobia, but yet he hypothetically suggested, if he was to wish the evil of virulent homophobia on anyone it would be me , because i disagree with him.

          6. @Rapture

            NIce capture of a comment out of context.

            Not only did I say I would not wish it on anyone – I also made it clear that homophobia in any form is unacceptable – I also made it clear my passion for LGBT rights – I also made it clear that there are some people who are gay whose attitudes and intransigence (amongst other things) I do not like – It doesn’t stop me being gay or supporting LGBT rights.

            You also fail to mention your rhetoric against me – not a mere disagreement.

            I post this comment not to justify myself to you – but to set the record straight. You see, some contributors on here find the best argument against some people is to misrepresent – and I will always ensure that my stance is aired correctly when someone twists my words.

          7. rapture

            stu reckons we bring it on ourselves

            James! may not be burnign mosques or attacking Muslims etc – but he is hardly helping create a situation where those Muslims who are supportive of LGBT people (and this report suggests there are many more than we thought – and thats James! real bug-bear) feel able to build on that and become more confident and win other Muslims round. His attack worsens our position in the battle and makes us subject to more attack from the extremists in the Muslim faith – he makes us targets.

            It’s not their fault that thing is best ignored

          8. @James!

            Where on earth do I say ignore homophobia?

            Oh thats right, I don’t anywhere … its you misrepresenting me – again … you’re becoming as bad as Pepa

        2. @stu , please refer yourself to your previous commentary on this thread “i would not wish on you some of the things i have experienced…….. so if i did wish it on anyone , it would be you”, you are confused about what your own words are, and the malice projected by them. You have no empathy with victims of homophobia or abuse to actually suggest it is your wish on someone . Your empty rhetoric compounds your insincerity.

          1. @Rapture

            Again you take words out of one quote totally out of context and make them mean something I did not. Thats the sort of trick that religious bigots use.

            Call me insincere but your motives and arrogance are clear to any intelligent reader to see by merely reading your comments on here.

            As for having no empathy for victims of homophobia. How would you know? Well done, you offended me by your comments – that was clearly your intention – you succeeded. It does not change the fact that your comments about Iran and Uganda being like south London are incredulous and undermine the severe homophobia experienced daily in Uganda, Iran and elsewhere.

            I never said it was my wish on you — I have already explained what I meant and you continue to misrepresent me.

          2. @stu no point backtracking now,you have undermined the seriousness of homophobia in your ill thought wording. You are more concerned with your self righteous ego than any other agenda. your duplicitous, vindictive words are a representation you have presented here.

          3. @Rapture

            In your word – “Whateva”

            I for one do not need your approval, understanding or appreciation (good job because I would never get it ) – its sufficient for me to have the integrity of knowing how I have dealt with, supported and actively condemned homophobia. I am gay and proud and vehemently condemn consistently homophobia.

            Maybe I could have worded things better – with the greatest of respect, so could you “Whateva!”

            I have no concern with my own ego. I prefer to see equality in all areas, seek to understand people and to force solutions that stop homophobia rather than reignite the flame by alienating allies and supporters.

            I see myself as a constructive optimist who understands realism. That realism is that dynamic and forceful action is required to win some battles (including against draconian pessimism) but that dialogue and common sense are usually the winners in the long haul.

  10. Mumbo Jumbo 27 Jun 2011, 6:29pm

    Putting aside the problem that the statement “I am proud of how Britain treats gay people” can be taken either way, I see that they are still making the claim that “a strong sign of this was the East London Mosque banning homophobic preachers.” However, as Andrew Gilligan writes in today’s telegraph, this promise lasted all of eight days:

    http://goo.gl/VsbrK

  11. God (or Allah) knows I’m no apologist for any of the organised religions, but I really really really wish people would stop referring to THE Muslim Community. There is NO SUCH THING, any more than there one Christian community. Or one gay community, for that matter.

    1. I agree Rehan.
      Its the fact that there are numerous Muslim, Christian, Jew, LGBT and other forms of communtiy (geographical, belief based or due to shared interests etc) that I try and use the plural if I use communities in a descriptive form. It also helps to avoid appearing as if you perceive all Jews, Christians, LGBT, Muslims, Swimmers, Marathon runners, Actors, Doctors, Politicians, etc the same – in each section of the population be that Muslim, Train drivers, black people or whatever many will hold opinions that are different and some may appear to others to be in conflict with their culture, belief system or background.

    2. There may or may not be a muslim community. I think if you go to various areas in the country you will see that there are predominant communities of muslims. Regardless, there is a muslim belief system. And that belief system does not accept homosexuality. You only have to look through the muslim world to see the effects of that homophobic belief system on gay men. Maybe one day muslims will all accept that their holy books are wrong, therein lies the problem, as if they do, they are no longer muslims. But at the moment, they do not think the koran and hadith are wrong, and therefore we are imprisoned, tortured and murdered because of the islamic belief system.

      1. @Eddy two

        I certainly agree there are pockets of Muslims geographically across the UK – for example parts of London, Bradford, Oldham, Rochdale, Newcastle, Slough, Glasgow etc. There are also Muslims who do not live in such close proximity to large “communities” of Muslims.
        Indeed you can see the impact of homophobia in many of the Arab states and some of the Islamic African states (for example).
        some of the interpretations of Islam is homophobic – there are other interpretation that is LGBT friendly (and there have been TV documentaries and reports about them). Unfortunately, the homophobic interpretations predominate, in part due to the desire for control and power that some of the Muslim leaders have and for other reasons including a fear (which can be linked to the power seeking of the homophobes) to be strident and speak out on LGBT issues by the liberal Muslims.
        The Koran and Hadith can be seen as homophobic but looking at the original language can be perceived in a …

        1. … different context.
          I don’t dent it appears that there are significantly more homophobes in the Islamic world than there are gay friendly people. I wonder how many of those homophobes are actually apathetic and subjugate to the power seeking leaders.
          We need to condemn, confront and expose the power hungry bigoted leaders. But it also damages our fight for equality if we do not endorse those who fully accept being LGBT is a way we are born and deserving of equal rights and have a faith.
          When we fight a war we attack those who are our enemy. We also try to be smart and seek intelligence from within the enemies camp and provide covert support for those who are against the leaders of the enemy.
          I know its not the best metaphor but in the same way we need to attack virulently those who are homophobic and bigoted whilst not undermining those allies we have within those groups.

      2. Good insightful , accurate view.

        1. Strange you dont choose to unpick my comments here …..

  12. There really does seem to be another poll being reported every other day on this site, covering every gradation from mildly unconvincing to downright silly. Does anyone seriously pay attention to them?

    1. There is an element of that which is true although some polls are encouraging and some reiable …
      Determining which is which is the issue

  13. Rich (original) 27 Jun 2011, 11:07pm

    They are not Muslims, they – degenerates…..

    1. Like you would know

      1. Rich's Dirty Mind 27 Jun 2011, 11:34pm

        Well a degenerate will be able to recognise another degenerate. It takes one to know one, Rich darling.

    2. @Rich (Original)
      .
      I was wondering if you have any other words in your repertoire other than “Degenerate”?

      1. Rich's Dirty Mind 28 Jun 2011, 11:33am

        Doubt it John, he’s full of self-hatred. It’s something called “psychological projection.” He hates himself because he’s gay himself and so as a coping mechanism projects it onto others; see the Henry E Adams report from the Uni of Georgia on self-hating-homos.

        1. Hi RDM

          The Henry E Adams report sounds interesting, I must take a look at that
          .
          Thanks

  14. Quite recently,outside my apartment building,a group of young,(age around,8,9,10),Muslim boys were hurling deeply offensive remarks in the vein of,”England for the Muslims.Get the white c*nts out of our land” When I challenged them I was graphically verbally abused.Are these representative of the next generation of British Muslims? Who knows,but it was pretty damn scarey,I can tell you! I dread to think how they’ll react if they learn I’m gay!

  15. Don’t know if anyone has spotted this but is this stonewall response to the marriage equality consultaiton in July 2011

    http://www.stonewall.org.uk/documents/extension_of_marriage_stonewall_response_1.pdf

  16. George Broadhead 28 Jun 2011, 8:54am

    “A poll of British Muslims suggests that almost half say they are proud of the country’s stance on gay rights.”

    What a pity these pro-gay Muslims don’t publicly declare their support and challenge the often vicious homophobic views of the majority who don’t.

  17. did anyone run this poll in stamford hill or golders green? would be interesting to see what those communities there think about how uk treats its gays

  18. What exactly did they think they were being asked?
    Did some of the respondents live in homophobic neighbourhoods whose atmosphere complies with their relgious taboos and which they took to be typical of Britain?
    Just wondering.

  19. Stand by your principals is you are claiming not to be an islamaphobe. Make the same sweeping statements about Catholics. They have homophobic leaders, laws, speech, etc. Go protest the next Catholic church or Catholic originaisation to have a homophobe speaker (you will only need to wait a week or so for one to spring up).

    My point is their is huge differences between what religious leaders say and what ordinary people believe. Why do people turn a blind eye to that when it’s a minority religion and just want to assume they are all the same?

    1. I’m not sure whether you’re addressing me or not, but I’ll assume that you are:
      I was perfectly serious in saying that I was ‘just wondering’. The percentage expressing pride in our treatment in the UK simply struck me as very high in relation to publicly professed Muslim attitudes to us. Pro-lgbt Muslims are pretty silent and invisible and I would say that they need to be less so to lend credit to figures like this.
      And, by the way, I hold no brief for Roman Catholicism, and need no reminders of its bigotry.

  20. burningworm 29 Jun 2011, 10:46am

    Islam is not as old as Christianity.

    In any of the orthodox monotheistic religions homosexuality and a whole host of other ‘issues’ are not encouraged and in many places on this earth the acts are punishable.

    The ELM because it receives money from the state are being forced to modernise. We have to allow them the time to do that. It isn’t a matter of accepting injustice but knowing that justice will eventually be served.

  21. Jock S. Trap 30 Jun 2011, 9:48am

    I have to wonder where this poll was conducted.

    Certainly not the likes of Tower Hamlets, that’s for sure!!

  22. I call bullshit

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