Michael Lucas: ‘Poisonous’ anti-Israel lobby should not complain over LGBT meeting Tweet Email 27th June 2011, 6:33 PM Last updated on 28th June Michael Lucas, PinkNews.co.uk Back to article Post your comment Comments on this article are now closed. Reader comments Paul 27 Jun 2011, 6:48pm completely agree. people seem to rush to condemn israel but they dont appreciate the state has the most advanced democracy in the middle east, is the only champion of gay rights there and frankly, in any ther country around there, gays are hanged. So research before you rush to judge, -1 Reply Stuart Neyton 28 Jun 2011, 12:49am errr, people “rush to condemn israel” because it’s a terrorist state which imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip, steals land from the Palestinians in illegal settlements and discriminates against arabs within its own border. They could be the most tolerant country in the world when it comes to LGBT people, that’s not the point. 2 Reply myself 28 Jun 2011, 10:40am We have learned PC statements trough collective feeling of guilt that media impose on us for last 6o years but in our core we know Israel is deeply intolerant and chauvinistic country run from NY. Met some great people there thou and love the Holly land. Repressed became the oppressors. Same as happened to black community. Before calling me racist think about it. I have Crescent with David’s star tattooed on my arm. 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:07pm In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 60 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 11:04pm “it’s a terrorist state” Defending yourself against terrorists makes you the terrorist? this inversion of reality is very strange. “imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip” WHy do they have to let in 1.6 million people into Israel, many of whom want to blow them up? Egypt has now opened fully its border with Gaza. How is Israel imprisoning 1.6 million people in a concentration camp? “discriminates against arabs within its own border” Do you mean some people in Insrael are racist? Golly. Israel’s Declaration of Independence requires legal equality for all regardless of sex, race or religion. You’re a liar Stuart Neyton. 0 Reply isafakir 28 Jun 2011, 2:45pm all “facts” mentioned completely untrue. Only Iran hangs gay people. period. Iran is a democracy like Israel. Democracy for me and slavery starvation slaughter for you. In fact Kurdistan, Turkey even Kuwait are more democratic than Israel. And homophobes in Israel are the same people assassinating american citizens unarmed american citizens assassinated by IDF I lived there so I know. Do some research. don’t mp3 back Israeli hate propaganda from Israeli lobbyists. IDF tortures Americans including 100%disabled USA vets. It targets children. there can be no possible 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:09pm I am afraid that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which Carter had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States, Canada, Australia and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim. 0 Reply myself 28 Jun 2011, 6:24pm Britain and US ended Iranian democracy in 1953 in operation Ajax overthrowing Prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh instaling Reza Pahlavi. Let’s not pretend we on West are victims. We go around the world stealing and killing and sooner or later it comes back to us. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 11:04pm “Iran is a democracy like Israel” F*** me. The fact you say this shows how mad you are. 0 Reply RedDevil 1 Jul 2011, 9:36pm Jews live happily in Iran without any victimisation. I’m not saying Iran is perfect, but Israel is an illegal state that justifies their own Holocaust of Palestinians with what Hitler did to them??? What about the 5 million dead in the Congo? 750,000 in Rwanda? The other more than 50 million non-Jews killed in the war? No, all we hear on our news and media is about ‘poor old Israel’. Good luck finding anything on the Discovery channel or any other channel about any other holocaust but the Jewish one. The only thing that illegal F*scist hive ever learned was to be just the same as the N*zis. The sooner that terrorist state is gone the better. We’re sick of hearing about ‘poor Israel’ in the Jewish owned media while the IDF slaughters women and children and treats the rest like dogs. The world woke up and saw through the propaganda, Israel is finished now. 0 Reply Stu 2 Jul 2011, 8:40pm Whilst I do accept Israels interpretation of the holocaust and I do understand that this has good reason to make Israelis concerned for their security – what it does not do is give grounds for partition and the human rights abuses they have commited. There have been some good acts by Israel, that can not be denied, but equally there have been murderous and inhumane actions. 0 Dan Filson 27 Jun 2011, 6:52pm Why do I somehow feel that these remarks, with which I have some sympathy up to a point, were not wholly, or even mostly, penned by Lucas? 1 Reply Chuckster 28 Jun 2011, 11:12am Because you don’t know much about him? He’s been writing about this kind of thing for years, spoke at the Oxford Union about it as well as Ivy League and other universities across America. He’s not your average porn bimbo. 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 6:54pm Firstly, can I saw congratulations to PN for putting two very articulate reports with contrasting views on this point. There are lots of wrongs and rights in terms of the big picture of human rights in Israel – on both sides of the argument. On the specific issue of LGBT rights – Israel has done a fantastic job compared to other nations close to it. I would not want to make a judgement on LGBT rights alone when judging a nation on human rights – but they are rights that speak to me as a gay man. Equally I would want liberty, freedom of speech etc. I respect Israel for its stance on LGBT issues but I feel its approach to human rights and intransigence in terms of working with the Palestinians and international community to find a solution to the situation there is disappointing. However, I am no more concerned about the situation that I am about Morocco, Sudan, Uganda, Syria, Bahrain and many other places. I agree LGBT events ideally should be held in locations where all are … 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 6:55pm …able to attend and international travel bans are far from ideal in this situation. However, I do think Israel deserves its plaudits and support for its stance on LGBT rights and comment can be made on the wider political situation by delegates – and it is one conference – there will be others. 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:16pm What should Israel do in the absence of internationally recognized legal basis for her rather feeble attempts to defend herself? Only one thing: free herself of the corruption of moral relativism, ignore the irrelevant opinions of the Europeans, and summon the necessary courage to use her superior military might to enforce her own concepts of good and evil, her own understanding of right and wrong with the maximum efficiency and minimum loss of life on her side. This is equally true for Israel in its suffering from the never ending pan-Arab war against it and the West in its War on Terrorism. After all, every passing day brings new evidence that the two wars are actually one and the same. 0 Reply fedupwithisrael 28 Jun 2011, 10:10pm Wait for China to emerge as a top economy, Israel will be back begging Europe, no 2 economy, for help. World is slowly loosing patience with Israel stubbornness and arrogance 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 11:05pm “World is slowly loosing patience with Israel stubbornness and arrogance” Yes, just let the terrorists blow Israel up, then we can all live in peace without the pesky Jews complaining. 0 Reply vveratile 27 Jun 2011, 7:13pm Israel is to be applauded for it’s mostly pro stance on LGBT rights. It’s other human rights are in a shocking state of affairs however. There’s a good reason why people regard it in the same way as they used to regard South Africa in the 1980′s. 1 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 7:29pm @versatile I have some sympathy with your comments – particularly the fact that the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling. I can see it comes (in part) as a defensive strategy but this does not justify it. I do wonder what benefit an LGBT youth group not holding their conference in Israel would do to improve general human rights. Does it really carry that much weight? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:39pm There’s no problems with human rights in Israel you’re talking rubbish. Look up human rights in Israel on Wikipedia. It’s not hard. 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 11:47pm i prefer a more reliable source than Wikipedia – and the reputable sources I have considered demonstrate that Israeli human rights are generally appalling. The UN Human Rights Council also seem to think so, as do Amnesty International and many governments. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 12:27am Wikipedia isn’t a source. It’s an encyclopaedia. It takes its information from primary sources. The opening sentence on Human Rights in Israel is “Human rights in Israel have been evaluated by various human rights treaty bodies, intergovernmental organizations, non-governmental organizations and individuals.” You have no basis to libel Israel by saying “Israeli human rights are generally appalling.” You’re denying the truth. Why? 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 12:42am Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which can be editted (and has been) to include false information. It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence. Personally, it has its uses but is poor to demonstrate facts. I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. You havent addressed that. I am satisfied that along with common opinion in the human rights movements Israel is regarded overall as breaching international law (indeed it has accepted that it has on occasions) and sorely in need of improving its human rights record. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 1:01am Just because Wikipedia can be edited by everyone doen’t mean it’s full of junk and not open to review, scrutiny, and fact checking. “It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence” Wikipedia is not a source of evidence. It gets information from primary sources with the intention of educating the world. Maybe you prefer to get your information from Amnesty International with no oversight, no proof, no quality assessment, no verification, no authority and no reliability. If you refuse to trust verifiable information simply because it finds its way onto Wikipedia, I don’t think you understand what Wikipedia is, the way it works or how it should be used. “I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. ” OK the flotilla incident – now regarded as agitators while Israel acted within the law: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 1:10am As for your links on torture 1) “An official Israeli report has acknowledged for the first time that the Israeli security service tortured detainees…Two years after the report was written, the Supreme Court banned the use of physical force in interrogations.” 2) “He has been arrested four times by the Israeli security services, accused of stone-throwing and vandalising security cameras in the Old City. He says he has been detained each time for a few days in one of Jerusalem’s interrogation centres, and then sent home under orders not to leave the house for another few days.” The humanity! It also mentions bringing in family members giving the impression harm may come to them if they don’t confess to crimes. “Human rights group the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) says a pattern has emerged recently of the security forces using such tactics with Palestinian interrogees” OK they shouldn’t do it but it’s not too bad + now it’s in the papers theyll probably stop. 0 Salt 28 Jun 2011, 1:57am The UN Human Rights Council is a joke, and includes Syria and Libya as members. Even the past two heads of the UN have said the Human Rights Council is a joke. It’s an Orwellian joke that pretends it cares about human rights, when it’s whole purpose is to deflect attention from the human rights abuses of its members. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 9:25am Regardless of the voracity of the UNHRC in the past – over 140 nations supported maintaining Israels human rights record as a permanent agenda item for UNHRC – no other nation has caused such concern for so many nations on the grounds of human rights. Amnesty voices repeated concern. There were simultaneous attacks by the Israeli military on Palestinians, the West Bank, Gaza and their borders a few months ago resulting in dozens of civilian deaths. The incursions which occurred on aid ships to Gaza (which despite your reassurances that they were agitators) are still severely concerning to the international community. To suggest Israels record on human rights generally is good is blinkered and wrong 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 9:48pm but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police? 0 Jamesh 28 Jun 2011, 1:27pm I have just looked it up on Wikipedia and the entry is full of references to human rights violations. I suggest that either you haven’t read it or you are trying to mislead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel#Human_rights_record_in_the_Occupied_Territories 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:59pm Well said Jamesh. I hadn’t bothered to look because it was Wikipedia – but looking through what appears a well balanced entry that you give – just reading for a few minutes and I have noted a dozen human rights significant infringements by Israel. Palestine have a long way to go with human rights too, and many of the Arab states have much further to go. But to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:39pm @Jamesh the so-called “human rights abuses” are not really that: denying statehood isn’t the same as torture. Stop misleading people. @Stu “to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie.” Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course. You have no evidence of this. Every person within Israel is legally treated as equal. If you want to argue that foreigners in Gaza aren’t given the same rights as Israelis you’re fighting a losing war. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 11:11pm @Trollfromdamascus Where have I mentioned the colour of peoples skin … not once … Seems you are playing a race card. I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:40am Sorry, I was using “brown people” as shorthand because in the end it all boils down to that. I assume you don’t think Israel “abuses” the human rights of light skinned Jews. “I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur” Show these “international and independent commentators” who agree “Israel’s human rights are lacking”. I don’t believe you because apart from a smattering of socialist nutjobs and Islamist extremists I haven’t seen systematic abuse of anyone in Israel. You’re making it up. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:06am @Trollfromdamascus Just because you havent seen systematic abuse and witnessed it first hand – does not mean it has not happened. Watch the news (ideally from a respected non Israeli, non-Arab, non-US outlet). Read respected independent journalists reports. Read Amnesty breifings. Look at the comments of the nations (150+ of them) who voted to keep Israel permanently as an agenda item on the UNHRC. Look at all the UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel. Need I go on … Your support for Israel and its right to defend itself is admirable. You need to look beyond at what is being reported elsewhere. Its clear that not only is Israel breaching human rights, so is Paelstine and Paelstinian groups and many of the Arab states – but this does not justify Israels human rights record. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:17am @Stu I meant I haven’t seen any genuine authentic reports of systematic human rights abuses committed by Israel. If any exist that’s a game changer but none exist. Your assertion that Israeli and American press is biased is strange. Israeli press is freer than Italy’s. Maybe you don’t like Israel or America. As I told you elsewhere, the UNHRC has been told by the head of the UN Ban Ki Moon that they’re obsessed with Israel. You keep talking about “grave human rights abuses” but not one scrap of evidence is given to support the accusation. If by “UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel” you mean Israel refuses Palestinian statehood that’s not “grave human rights abuses” but a political fight. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:23am @TrollfromDamascus I have no doubt that in principle the press in Israel (and indeed in the USA) are free – freedom of speech is taken to extremes in the US (often to the expense of others human rights). However, that does not mean the press are unbiased. Freedom means you can speak your bias. The US is pro-Israel as are many of its senior journalists, their political stance, their nuance, their publishers money buying that view … Now, I am not saying that neither they nor the Israeli press do not have reasonable comment to make – merely that looking at pro and anti Israeli reporting from nations that are not so tied into the politics and funding of Israel gives a less biased view. If you read my views and opinions on here you will see that I repeatedly say there is fault on both sides of the crisis in the Middle East. I am anti Israel, I value its LGBT rights. I have enjoyed visiting there. I recognise what Annan said about Israeli abuses and that has regular commentary in.. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:26am … the media and UN publications and those of action groups such as Amnesty show repeated human rights abuses by both sides. I certainly don’t think the Italian press is a credible comparitor given corruption in Italy. You have given me a quote that condemns the UNHRC by the current UN secretary general. I have replied on another thread with a quote from another statesman Kofi Annan which balances that with concern at Israeli abuses whilst cautioning the UNHRC to have a more global perspective (and that seems reasonable to me). You suggest that I may be anti-Israel and anti-American – not at all. Perhaps you are so pro-Israel that you blinkered from seeing its wrongs. Or maybe, you are so anti-Arab that it colours your views? 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:59am If unbiased press is your criteria you’ll have a very hard time finding it. Denying the legitimacy of the entire American and Israeli media is extreme to say the least. It does give me an idea of what you believe though. Attempting to portray me as a racist must mean your arguments are running out. I keep begging you for some reports about these “human rights abuses” you’re so fond of. They’re strangely lacking… 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:13am @TrollfromDamascus Nice little twist on my words there. I merely suggested that there was media that was less biased on the situation that Israeli or US media and that this would protray a more balanced picture. A perfectly reasonable and legitimate view. I have given you plenty of evidence (as have others) but you seem to ignore, or claim they are not abuses (when they clearly are) or see it from a different angle (although how you can conceive that the storming of the Gaza bound aid ships is appropriate in any way is astounding). Although the tone of my discussion and debate here is more anti-Israeli (because of the points I seek to refute which are inaccurate – in my opinion) I have been at pains to point out blame should not just lie at the feet of the Israelis but also the Paelstinians, other Arab states and elsewhere. Since you claim I have not offered you any evidence of Israeli human rights abuses (which I have!) then I will go and research some more for you …. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:24am @Stu we went through this. Your “evidence” of human rights abuses consisted of a disproven illegal flotilla attempt to illegally enter territorial waters by terrorists, a BBC article which said Israel changed the law to forbid torturing terrorist suspects and another BBC article which said it was a human rights abuse to bring in a child’s father to the polce station when he was held for a crime. I’m sorry but you’re starting to sound like a fanatic. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:32am @Stu I almost forgot. Not funding Islamic schools to the same degree as normal state schools isn’t a “crime against humanity” in the traditional sense. BTW the US State Dept Human Rights Report on Israel might make for some uncomfortable reading for you, particularly when compared to the workings of Britain Thanks for tipping me off about this resource. It’s invaluable information :) 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 12:48pm @Trollfromdamascus Firstly you clearly have missed some of my evidence as you do not refer to it all – perhaps, in fairness you have only looked where I have pasted a website for checking, but there other elements (of my and other peoples evidence) referred to in text and naming or suggesting source. As for the “flotilla” as you choose to refer to it. Even if one accepts your call that they were agitators (which is subject to dispute amongst numerous agencies) then the action by the IDF was disproprotionate and an invasion and a breach of human rights of those people on those vessels. As for the BBC reports – some do refer to human rights abuses and some do congratulate Israel on their conduct. You clearly do not read my words very clearly. Firstly you accuse me of referring to you as a fanatic (which I never did), then you call me a fanatic (yet I am constantly seeking to show balance – Israel has lots of improvements to make and is far from perfect but does do some good. …. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 12:50pm … Others, including Arab states and Palestine and Hamas have a great deal of significant improvements they need to do (some of which Israel already has correctly achieved, some of which Israel are wanting in) – but they can also be congratulated for some acts. So far from fanatical, I am wanting to achieve balance and proprortion. Its you who brings up the term fanatacism – and one wonders if you are projecting. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 1:42pm http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-hoax-video-blog-and-the-plot-to-smear-a-gaza-aid-mission-2304030.html 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 2:20pm @Kane Very interesting article. I was referring to this story re the Gaza ship incident: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10195838 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 7:45pm For someone who claims to demand academic professionalism at all times, you must be able to understand that muttering about something doesn’t make it “evidence” just because you say it. Your links to a few articles even demonstrated Israel’s commitment to human rights. You keep going on about Israel boarding the terrorist flotilla as “disproprotionate and an invasion and a breach of human rights”. You’re clearly wrong. Israel’s blockade of Gaza and boarding of terrorist ships attempting to defeat the legal blockade was perfectly legal and not “breaching human rights”. Calling me “paranoid” because I ask for proof of “human rights abuses” isn’t normal. You go on to say I’m “anti-Arab”. You take the smallest of incidents – like Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools in Israel – and call it “crimes against humanity”. I think that counts as fanaticism. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:34pm @Trollfromdamascus No matter how many times you try and convince me that Israel is a utopia for human rights it just simply isnt true. I have supplied you with some evidence that demonstrates that in some areas Israel is good in human rights (and in the same evidence that Israel is exceptionally poor). We are never going to agree on the Gaza aid ship (not the false flotilla a year later – the one where the IDF killed numerous people who were no threat (as admitted by IDF spokesmen at the time). Its one of the most flagrant breaches of human rights ever taken by a state in recent years. Others have also given you evidence. Now, I don’t have to educate you and I am perfectly content that I have demonstrated my academic acumen on several occasions – so your snide comment is unnecessary. If you want to see the evidence – open your eyes, take your blinkers off – read the lengthy State department report I shared without cherry picking, read the Amnesty and MSF reports … etc 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:41pm @Troll You were the one who brought up Islamic school funding not me – I mentioned prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism being giving preference and did not express how that was manifested. You suggest that Israel has made mistakes, that things are hardly a crime against humanity (which it doesnt have to be to be a breach of human rights), or deny the facts of events or the opinion of statesmen with integrity such as Kofi Annan. You ignore my comments about failure to investigae allegations of torture – at all. You also ignore my comments condemning Palestine and Arabic states and Hamas. Israel is not a utopia for human rights. It gets some things very right and some incredibly wrong. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:42pm I’m not trying to convince you of anything. The fact of the matter is systematic breaches of human rights by Israel don’t occur. Your assertion that Israel systematically abuses human rights is a lie and not demonstrable by any means. You’ve offered no proof of your claims, merely rhetoric. Frankly I think you can’t be arsed to look at the facts you claim to know and every time I read your links to “human rights abuses” they state the opposite. I think you’re having a piss poor attemp at demonstrating what you think to be true. In reality you’re full of rhetoric and BS and not a single piece of evidence has been provided by you to demonstrate your wild claims. You’re a liar and a fraud. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 8:44pm Joseph Goebbels would be proud of israel’s propaganda machine 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:49pm @Stu “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism” I looked up your citation and that is the manner in which “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism” happens in Israel. Try reading your own sources for once. “You suggest that Israel has made mistakes” Yes. “that things are hardly a crime against humanity” Not funding Islamic schools and bringing in a child’s parents to visit them in prison aren’t generally considered “crimes against humanity”. Re: Kofi Annan: his comments were in regard to Jenin, now known to have been fabricated by Palestinians. The problem is your exaggeration. You say Israel “gets some things incredibly wrong”. It’s my assertion – backed up by all available proof – that Israel is no worse than any other Western democracy. This is the truth and you haven’t shown otherwise. Stop lying. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:57pm @Kane “Joseph Goebbels would be proud of israel’s propaganda machine” That’s the lowest yet, likening Israel to N*zi Germany and/or claiming I’m an Israeli propagandist. You’re clearly deranged. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 9:20pm so the death of a bloke in dubai hotel involving up to 29 assasins with forged passports had nothing to do with israel? 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:35pm @Kane what’s that got to do with anything? If you think Israel’s unique in extrajudicial assassinations you’re deluded. Ever heard of drone attacks in Pakistan? Do you even know how security services operate? Your obsession with Israel is telling. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 9:50pm …..but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police??? 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:10pm @TrollfromDamascus. Someone who is losing their argument resorts to temper tantrums and name calling like you just have. You’re blind, you’re naive. I can’t believe the idiocy of your position. How can you not see that whilst Israel has done some good things it has also done some very poor things? What about the recent death linked to Mossad where British, German and Australian passports were forged by Israeli agents? Was that not someone deprived of life? Were they not passport holders who faced intense suspicion because of Israeli action? The numerous diplomatic sanctions imposed by several countries including the UK and Germany demonstrate the strength of evidence that was not published. Try these: http://wn.com/Jewish_Rabbi_condemns_Israeli_genocide_in_Gaza http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/22/gaza-flotilla-un-condemns-israeli-brutality http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/kenny-warns-against-blockade-trip-16017509.html 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 10:20pm stu i already mentioned earlier that troll’s speciality is monosyllabic name calling, he is accusing others of obsession with israel while in reality it is he who is obsessed with Goebbels style propaganda 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:35pm @Troll Re Kofi Annan, if he had just been referring to Jenin then it wouldnt be an appropriate comment to quote, but if you look at the entirity of what Annan was talking about at that time, it is clear that he was not referring to a single event but multiple events. I note you continue to fail to address the concerns about Israel not investigating any allegation of torture. The US State Department said “The government implemented policies including marriage, divorce, education, burial, and observance of the Sabbath based on Orthodox Jewish interpretation of religious law, and allocations of state resources favored Orthodox Jewish institutions. … On November 18, police detained Nofrat Frankel, a 25-year-old female medical student … for praying” …”Many religious communities were not recognized.” …”The legal defense NGO Jerusalem Institute of Justice (JIJ) alleged that MOI officials denied services to certain citizens based on their religious beliefs. The JIJ had 70 such cases 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:45pm @Stu – I just mentioned extrajudicial deaths! dear god get a grip. “I note you continue to fail to address the concerns about Israel not investigating any allegation of torture.” BS I answered below. I’ll reprint it for you. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:47pm @Stu From the US State Dept: “the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct” 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:47pm “the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct” 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:48pm http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm “the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct” And you keep going on about the terrorist flotilla: the IDF investigation into the May 31 events concluded that the use of live fire was justified, although it criticized organizational and intelligence failures for not being prepared for the level of violence committed by some of the flotilla’s passengers. The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:55pm @Stu I now realise you’re incapable of reading. Try it for once. @Kane the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6963473.ece. “The Islamist group Hamas is masterminding efforts to have senior Israeli leaders arrested for alleged war crimes when they visit European countries including Britain, a top Hamas official involved in the effort has told The Times.” That loophole will be closed becuase idiots like you hate Israel with no justification, no evidence, no proof and no reason beyond your obsessed hatreI doubt you or Stu will bother to read such biased papers as The Times because it contradicts the BS you believe. Stu I’m sorry to say but you’re increasingly sounding like an idiot. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 11:17pm @troll …… the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials….. REALLY??? AND I THOUGHT HE FORGOT TO PAY CONGESTION CHARGE, SILLY ME. Please try harder, clearly you like to mix politics with law 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:19pm @Kane what are you talking about? “Hamas using English law to demand arrest of Israeli leaders for war crimes” Congestion charge? You’re as mad as Stu. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 11:29pm following might explain; SARCASM Pronunciation:/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/ noun [mass noun] the use of irony to mock or convey contempt: she didn’t like the note of sarcasm in his voice Origin: mid 16th century: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh’, in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’) 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:31pm @Stu and Kane - two of the dumbest people on here. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 11:42pm OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION|*** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again) …. *** propaganda 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 11:45pm .OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION *** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again) …. *** propaganda 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:57am @Kane I would suggest you brush up on your English classes. You’re doing good for English as a second language but there’s a lot of room for improvement. 8/10 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:29am @Troll The State Department does say investigations took place into inhumane conditions in criminal detention – that is separate from the allegations of torture which the State Department clearly state are not investigated 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:34am @Troll If your justification for (as you clinically put it) extra judicial assassinations, is that other states do it … then your standard for human rights abuses – which assassinations are (whoever carries them out) is even lower than I thought. Would we let a burglar off from burglary merely because another person burgled him- No. So, why should Israel not be held to scrutiny for state sponsored murders just because other nations do? That in itself clearly demonstrates unequivicably that the Israeli state has breached some human rights and international law. Even someone as intransigent as you must admit that – and if you don’t then you are parroting propaganda. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:36am @Troll Criticizing someone in a snide manner for their lack of ability in English, is offensive and could be construed as racist. If you like being referred to as racist – dont be racist. 0 isafakir 28 Jun 2011, 2:49pm i lived there and i can assure you Israel treats Jewish minorities from Africa, the Middle East and Asia with hate humiliation and racism. It abuses people. I saw with my own eyes how IDF deliberately dehumanizes people. Even IDF concriptees are often ashamed. 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:12pm Since Arabs think Israel has no right to exist and “terrorism” is the pejorative of the day, the Arabs tailor their own definition of terrorism in such a way that everything an Israeli does, including even the breathing, becomes an act of terrorism, while every crime committed by an Arab becomes a heroic act of legitimate resistance. That approach appears disgustingly immoral to us only because we do not share their goals. In fact, theirs — unlike our own — is a perfectly reasonable approach. From our own perspective, an Arab terrorist on his way to a martyrdom operation remains an innocent civilian up until the moment he ties the bomb belt around his waist. But even then all he has to do to remain immune to any possible attempt to prevent the planned mass murder is to make sure that the explosives are not immediately visible: as long as they remain hidden under his clothes, he is considered an innocent civilian…. -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:40pm Many people on here will take the terrorists’ side. They’re vocal lunatics. 0 Reply Infidel 27 Jun 2011, 7:20pm Peter Tatchell has done more for gay rights than this guy will ever do. He should stick to making cr4p porn and let gay rights activists carry on with gay rights activism. Anyone who does a tacky remake of la dolce vita should be banished forever, instead of trying to use tatchell as a scapegoat. 0 Reply Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 9:56am I agree. The guy’s a porn star/producer/prostitute/whatever. Can the next speaker have a modicum of integrity, please? 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:20pm Purely because you do not like the films this guy has produced does not mean that he is not entitled to an opinion. I didnt like Jaws, but Steven Spielberg has some interesting and relevant political points to make at times. 0 Reply Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 1:51pm What an analogy. I’m happy to listen to Spielberg because his films indicate that he has a coherent moral philosophy that is worth taking on board. Michael Lucas, whose films are crass, exploitative and devoid of artistic merit, doesn’t merit any such comparison. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 2:00pm Just because you do not like his industry does not mean he can not make his political and philosophical views known – nor that he is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately the Oxford Union agreed that he had some valid views. 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 2:11pm Sure, he can make them known, the same way the rest of us can. But it’s a dangerous precedent to hold porn stars up as celebrities or social heroes, because they become aspirational. Pornography is not something anyone with any level of self-respect should aspire to, and it’s a horrible demonstration of how far we’re slipping if people think it doesn’t matter. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 2:22pm @Jeremy I certainly would agree that I do not think pornography is a credible aspirational route. That is a personal opinion. I don’t think in his message that Michael Lucas is saying – hey, look at my thoughts on the Israeli situation and on gay politics – hey, do you agree – fancy being a porn actor?. I just don’t see that. Nor do I see him seeking celebrity status in this or heroic stature – in fact he ridicules Tatchell (mostly unwarranted) for his iconic stature. I know some porn stars have said they do not see themselves as oppressed and made a personal decision to enter (and stay in) the industry. I suspect, for some, they are trying to convince themselves of this or are ignorant of the oppression they were under. That said, some will genuinely have made the decision freely. 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 2:32pm The vast majority will have made the decision freely. That doesn’t change the point about exploitation. If (for example) I needed £50 and someone said they’d give it to me if I performed a sexual act on them, I will have made the decision freely, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that I had been exploited. Even if I thought, as porn is as pervasive and accessible at it is, that it would be a better career choice than working for a living, I will also have been seriously misled and, short of being one of the 1% of individuals who don’t experience guilt (who are called ‘psychopaths’), my self-respect would take an enormous kicking as a result. Let’s not elevate their social status beyond what they actually are, which is prostitutes. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 3:04pm @Jeremy I am not trying to lift anyones social status. I accept that even those who make free choices to enter the “industry” may economically or otherwise have been influenced into it. You can argue the same about other more acceptable career choices – however. There will also be (I perceive a minority) who choose a career in porn without economics being the prime motive. That does not make them psychopaths, nor does it make their choice honourable in my personal view but it can mean that they are not oppressed. Its rhetoric to say that all in the porn industry are oppressed – it may be the vast majority but not all. 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 3:38pm Short of drawing a diagram, I don’t know how to explain it to you. It doesn’t help that you’re putting words like ‘oppression’ in my mouth. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 4:06pm @Jeremy You used the word exploitative – I merely changed it for an alternative understanding of the word I don’t know how to explain to you – that I agree with lots of your view but that its not factually correct in every circumstance and that barring someone from voicing their articulate (if not entirely factual) political views on the basis of their business (which is the logical extension of your view that Lucas lacks integrity) is failing to allow free speech. 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 4:27pm I suppose there is the distinction. I’m not saying we should bar anyone’s free speech, but there’s a big difference between barring and not printing. He can say whatever he likes, I’m not stopping him. I just don’t think any more notice should be taken of his opinion than any common garden crack whore. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 4:42pm @Jeremy Maybe I pushed your argument further to its natural conclusion than you would be comfortable – if so, I apologise. The Lucas argument is not just printed in PN, its also in the Jerusalem Post, Gay City News and other outlets – so in that respect I think PN would be remiss if not balancing Tatchells views with views that are available elsewhere. 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 1:55pm “Films” in inverted commas, obviously. 0 Reply Jock S. Trap 30 Jun 2011, 7:51am Yeah, how Dare someone have a difference of opinion, tut, tut!! 0 Reply VFA 27 Jun 2011, 8:09pm When it comes to human rights, it is a fact that BOTH Israel and Muslim states or organizations are BOTH to be condemned for their well-proven records. Speaking of inconsistencies and biases…. you people…! 0 Reply Daniel 27 Jun 2011, 8:10pm This is one of the most Victorian comments I ever read on this site. Don’t most activists have a day job? And why would producing gay porn disqualify you from having opinions on gay issues? Rather the opposite, I should think. This is really unpleasantly moralistic and a direction I think nobody wants to go in. 0 Reply Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 11:20am Personally speaking, a direction I don’t want to go in is one where we giving further legitimacy to people whose only achievement is to film people having sex for money. - Pornography, as much as we now view it as harmless fun, is actually socially corrosive and encourages us to objectify other human beings and view sex as nothing more spiritual than going to the toilet. Not to mention normalising sexual practices that are a sign of pathological sickness. I don’t want their ‘stars’ speaking on my behalf. What next, Linda Lovelace taking on Michael Gove over the subject of religion in free schools. Come on! 0 Reply auntie babs 28 Jun 2011, 12:19pm That’ll never happen. Ms Lovelace died some years ago. 0 Reply Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 12:44pm Lol, just the first example that came to mind. Though, a quick scan of Wikipedia reveals she became part of the anti-pornography movement later in life. Telling. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 2:03pm Some (maybe all) pornography may be exploitative. You could argue that fast food advertising on childrens television is exploitative too. That said, McDonalds have interesting views on the environment and other important issues. Therefore, Michael Lucas’s industry may exploit some people – it doesnt mean he can’t have a valid, real, articulate and intelligent position on human rights and international relations. 0 Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 2:22pm He may do. But so might anyone. Why should he get a platform? On the basis of his ‘celebrity’? 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 2:24pm Other people recently got a platform on here who were not celebrities … I think PN found an article that contrasted the one they found by Tatchell and thought they provided a good comparison. 0 Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 3:57pm It’s an article attacking the character of one of Britain’s most prominent human rights activists, written by a man with no character. A good contrast it is not. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 4:09pm @Flamineo Clearly the Oxford Union thought he was an appropriate speaker for their debates. Why should someones career or business choice make their views on international relations, LGBT issues, politics or philosophy automatically irrelevant or redundant? 0 Jeremy 28 Jun 2011, 4:44pm I’m not saying his view is automatically redundant. I am not saying that Oxford University shouldn’t invite a gay porn director to talk about the crisis in the middle east. I do suspect that there are an awful lot more people qualified to talk about it than him though. Without a name as a porn director, his article wouldn’t be printed here. Is that the precedent we’re setting now? That the celebrity of porn workers gives their voices greater power than, say, teachers or philosophers, or doctors or psychologists. All of whom would have an opinion believe me, but would never get this level of promotion. Is that what people have to do to gain power–give up their moral integrity? 0 Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 5:10pm Speaking for myself, I just worry that pornography is becoming so mainstream that we begin to undervalue sex. Maybe that’s my Catholic upbringing talking, but there it is! I also think we should be a little wary of who we choose to represent us as spokespeople. I’ll take Tatchell over Lucas any day. Though, I agree, he is perfectly entitled to his view, which may indeed be correct. It isn’t (in my view) but in theory at least. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 5:38pm @Jeremy / Flamineo There may well be other more qualified people to talk about the Middle East Crisis. I suspect Lucas given his ancestry and education give him more than a passing acquaintance with the issues of the Middle East crisis. He has a first class law degree from a university in Moscow, has lectured at Yale and Stanford and debated at these universities and Oxford Union. He is clearly an intelligent man and his business is only one aspect of his life and attitudes. He is a regular writer in the US LGBT media – where I suspect PN found this article originally. He is an ardent campaigner against drugs and promoting safe sex. He also campaigns for LGBT rights. Now, I am not a huge fan of porn and I recognise the oppression that the industry can cause. If however, there was ever a porn manufacturer with integrity – this is the man. 0 Flamineo 28 Jun 2011, 7:25pm Mmmh… 0 Hodge Podge 27 Jun 2011, 8:40pm Yes Israel has good LGBT rights. That has very little baring on our judgement of the Palestine situation. “He goes to Moscow and protests the government for forbidding Gay Pride. And then he doesn’t go to Israel, which just held yet another of the world’s most vibrant and festive Gay Pride celebrations, but protests if people want to hold a meeting there. Logic and consistency aren’t his strong suit.” I see no contradiction here. One’s a boycott because of a country’s foreign policy, one’s an internal protest because of it’s domestic policy. Different situations, different tactics. 0 Reply Rehan 27 Jun 2011, 8:49pm Exactly, just because Israel is considerably further advanced than its neighbours when it comes to LGBT rights doesn’t mean it’s above criticism when it comes to minority-ethnicity rights. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 10:02pm What are you talking about “minority-ethnicity rights.”? They have full rights in Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel 0 Reply Rehan 27 Jun 2011, 10:46pm Tell that to people on the wrong side of the wall. . (Please don’t think I have a black-and-white view of the situation in Israel, I’m fully aware of the fact that the state of Israel is in many ways more advanced than many of its neighbours.) 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:37pm What more do they want? They voted in free democratic elections to vote in a terrorist government – terrorist as defined by the EU and US - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Political_violence_and_terrorism they keep the people living in squalor and vow to kill every Jew on Earth. But it’s all Israel’s fault right? The black-red alliance is strong here. 0 Stu 27 Jun 2011, 10:48pm @TrollfromDamascus Most independent news outlets provide numerous examples of Israeli breaches of international law on human rights and UN conventions. Sure, there are breaches from Palestinians, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain and many others. That does not mean Israel’s actions are justified. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:35pm It also doesn’t mean Israel is an “Apartheid” state or committing “genocide”. 0 Stu 27 Jun 2011, 11:48pm I never said Israel was commiting genocide 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 12:37am “Israeli breaches of international law on human rights and UN conventions” Mistakes happen. If you’re asserting Israel consciously acts to destroy human rights, that requires extraordianry proof. Proof you and no one has. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 12:44am I will provide some more evidence in the morning but off to bed now … there is immense evidence of flagrant breaches (not mistakes!) of human rights by Israel 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:55pm Still waiting for your “evidence” of israeli human rights abuses… 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 11:12pm @TrollfromDamascus It has been posted – against one of your comments elsewhere There has also been evidence from others castigating the Israeli human rights record. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:36am No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel. Most people who do this are socialists who think Israel is a colonial project or Islamists who want a pan-Islamic continent. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:10am “No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.” Pure utter paranoia. Over 150 nations condemned Israeli human rights Many many respected (and some very right wing) journalists have raised concerns about and exposed Israeli human rights failures and breaches of international law. Israel has breached multiple UN Security Council resolutions. Yes there is a campaign against Israel and Israel has a right to defend itself but not at the expense of human rights. That results in a state becoming immune to the humanity of others. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:21am “Pure utter paranoia.” Paranoia? If asking for proof of your assertions of “grave systematic human rights abuses” is paranoid, so be it. Show me some proof of systematic grtave human rights abuses. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:31am @TrollfromDamascus No I found your statement: “All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.” to be demonstrably paranoid. I and others have given you plenty of evidence on this and another thread yet you condemn it on the basis of meaningless quotes from one stateman and the Israeli constitution, when we all know human rights abuses would usually flout a constitution and there are plenty of comments of elder statesmen that say the entire opposite of the current secretary general. I have given you some examples of evidence – whether them accept them or investigate them is entirely up to you. I’m not going to give you repeated streams of news articles, amnesty articles, UN declarations, Foreign and Prime Ministerial criticism, UNICEF concerns, MSF concerns, etc etc but I could. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:44am What’s demonstrable is the lack of proof for which you assert. You linked to two BBC articles, one of which said Israel changed the law to stop torture of terrorists in custody, and one which said the “human rights abuses” amounted to bringing in a teenager’s parents while he was in custody. Now you’re trying to say I’m a paranoid fanatic. Have you looked in the mirror lately? 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:51am BTW the Red Cross insists there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:24am @TrollfromDamascus Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered, fine if thats what you want to do – but there are clear examples of violations of human rights by Israelis within those articles. I have never said everything the Israelis do is bad. There will be some good practice – and perhaps its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced (ie articles that criticise and compliment the Israelis at the same time). You again misrepresent what I say – at no point have I called you a fanatic. Paranoid – yeah but your statement did genuinely cause me to have that concern. I have reluctantly agreed to give you yet more evidence despite the fact you ignore or reject any evidence offered to you by anyone. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 7:51pm “Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered”? I read your articles and they were all either retracted or demonstrate Israel’s commitment to human rights. “its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced” The thing is Stu, any reputable media will try to get the story right. The truth is there are no reports of systematic Israeli hujman rights abuses – because it doesn’t happen. I think your threshold for “human rights abuses” is set incredibly low. Your pencil tip broke? “ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE!!!!” 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:47pm @TrollfromDamascus Oh I must have missed that utopia where all media aim to get things totally accurate and do not twist things to suit their agenda. What a naive world you occupy where journalists are honest and have integrity and Israel is a bastion for human rights. You keep demanding evidence of me – now I shall demand you to prove the repudiation of the all of the stories I have given you, all the BBC news reports, all the comments in the State Department document, everything … prove it. The thing is you dont see my sense of balance Israel isnt completely wrong – but it isnt completely right. Its accepting that where Israel falls down. Your propaganda will eventually fail. My threshold of evidence is at the highest level – beyond reasonable doubt and I am also willing to be proved wrong, but again that must be beyond reasonable doubt. I have no doubt that Israel are good at LGBT rights, and general human rights for Jews. Their entire picture of human rights to non Jews 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:49pm is appalling and discredited by multiple NGOs, other nations, journalistic outlets … and it is not my job to supply that information to you. I have supplied some. I support Israel in many things but its laughable to credibly try and suggest that their record on human rights is whiter than white. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:54pm And there you have it Stu, at the end of every fanatic’s obsession with Israel is the assertion that Israel only respects the rights of Jews. You’re a fantastic racist. Nothing you link to shows what you purport it to show. I’ll tell you again from your own links: Two years after the report was written, the Supreme Court banned the use of physical force in interrogations The use of violent interrogation techniques is prohibited under Israeli and international anti-torture laws Your “evidence”. Stop lying. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:41pm @Troll The use of torture may indeed be banned by order of the judiciary but Israel does not investigate alelegations of torture – that seems all too convenient to me. If I was anti Israel and and Jew (which I am not) then I would not support Israel for many of the good things they do. The fact remains you see Israel as a (false) utopia and anyone who dares raise any criticism is lying, fabricating, obsessed or wrong. Now, I ask you – which one of us looks obsessed there …. I would suggest you? 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:02pm @Stu all I’m doing is reading your source material. None of it stacks up. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:37pm @Troll In your opinion it doesnt stack up – you’re welcome to your fantasy world where that is the case – plenty including respected diplomats, politicians, journalists and some rabbis are very critical of Israeli human rights … Your intransigence speaks volumes … 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 12:07am @Troll Explain the quote below signed by over 20 rabbis: “We are deeply saddened by the controversy that has grown up around the issuing of the report. We affirm your findings and believe you set up an impeccable standard thatprovides strong evidence thatIsrael engaged in war crimes during the assaulton Gaza thatreveal a pattern ofcontinuous and systematic assault against Palestinian people and land that has very little to do with Israel’s claim of security. Your report made clear the intentional targeting of civilian infrastructures such as hospitals, schools, agricultural properties, water and sewage treatment centers and civilians themselves with deadly weapons that are illegal when used in civilian centers. This is the ugly truth that is so hard for many Jewish people to face. Anyone who spends a day in Palestinian territories sees this truth immediately.” 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:55am Are you seriously submitting a video of an condemnatory Rabbi as evidence of Israel’s “human rights abuses”? For shame. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:39am @Troll I have not submitted any video … So again you misrepresent me The content to the article where 20 rabbis condemn Israeli human rights includes significant evidence from NGOs You are disputing an apolitical peaceful NGO – shame on you 0 Rehan 27 Jun 2011, 8:53pm What a ridiculous collection of clichés from someone hardly free from the accusation that he has an axe to grind. . Though there’s a delicious irony in someone who makes his living by promoting outsize penises accusing the British for loving monuments! 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 9:34pm You could argue it the other way, that because of his ancestry that he has a pertinent interest in the issues. I don’t see either Michael Lucas as being correct in all of his arguments against Peter Tatchell’s opinion – but he does have some reasonable points to make such as the democratic decision making of the IGYLO, the membership of the IGYLO and the homophobia of the de Klerk and Botha regimes in South Africa. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 10:03pm “someone hardly free from the accusation that he has an axe to grind.” What do you mean by that? Because he’s a Jew he “has an axe to grind”? That’s racist. 0 Reply Rehan 27 Jun 2011, 10:43pm Is it? Why? Can you provide some sort of guarantee that his view is wholly disinterested? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:31pm Deary, saying because someone’s a Jew or an Arab or a gay then they can’t be neutral or hold certain views is generalising and a form of racism. 0 Reply Rehan 28 Jun 2011, 7:43am Do you have any evidence to indicate that Lucas himself would see himself as disinterested in this matter? 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:41pm That’s a strawman tactic. The issue isn’t what Lucas says or thinks, it’s what you charge him as being because of his ancestry. 0 Reply David 27 Jun 2011, 9:09pm Michael Lucas is on record as saying that muslims should be barred from serving in the US Army, and on record as saying that the Arab world has contributed nothing to society. Is such a racist the ONLY person PN could find to write a pro-Israeli response to Peter Tatchell’s article? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:45pm I don’t agree with that opinion but factually 1) Islam isn’t a race 2) What has the Arab world contributed to the world? Mass stonings of gays and theocracies? 0 Reply Terry 28 Jun 2011, 6:58am No, Israel is a theocracy. “What has the Arab world contributed to the world?” This is class A ignorance. The Arab world basically invented our numeracy, and most of our fundamental mathematical principals. If you’re going to be a racist bigot, at least do us a favour and brush up on your history. Fool. 0 Reply Chuckster 28 Jun 2011, 11:14am Israel is NOT a theocracy, you ignoramus! 0 Reply Terry 28 Jun 2011, 2:15pm “Since Israel was founded by the Zionist movement as a Jewish state, and Judaism as a religion is often conflated Judaism as a nationality, Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government” – Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, American foreign policy analyst, editor and author who specializes in U.S./Middle East policy. —- While I admire your beautifully scripted “ignoramus” comment as an indicator of your level of education, I suggest you diversify your reading material a little before embarrassing yourself in public with such low-brow comments. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 2:26pm @Chuckster Israel certainly was created as a theocracy. It may have secularised a little since then – including law on freedom of religion and equality and LGBT issues and many other things. However, there is still an element of theocracy in how it still legally permits prejudice in favour of Jews and particularly Orthodox Jews over others. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:57pm “Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government” Your own quote demonstrates Israel isn’t a theocracy. Britain’s “state religion” is CoE and in many ways our society and laws are based on Christianity. Britain is, using your test, a theocracy. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:46pm “Israel is a theocracy. ” BS. Israel is a democracy. Check its declaration of independence. “The Arab world basically invented our numeracy, and most of our fundamental mathematical principals.” Actually numbers were invented by Indians. I know a lot of you people on Pinknews hate Wikipedia because it shows you facts, take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system Terry, I didn’t say I agreed with the remarks of Lucas. I wanted to know what the Arab world has given us. Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:15am @TrollfromDamascus It is arguable that when a state permits and encourages prejudice on the grounds not only of one faith (Judaism) but also on the grounds of particular Orthodox elements of Judaism and that this permeates the decision making that this suggests the state is a theocracy. Even the Israeli significant ally the USA in State Department published information on Israel acknowledges that there is legally endorsed prejudice against religions which are not Judaism and particularly Orthodox Judaism. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:22am Hardly a crime against humaity is it. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:33am @TrollfromDamascus So a breach of human rights has to be a crime against humanity? Now, if that is the Israeli states view on what constitutes human rights – then no wonder they continuallly flagrantly abuse them – they clearly don’t know what they are if they share your view … 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:52am More whining with no proof of anything from you. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:37am @TrollfromDamascus So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed? You seem prepared to accept religious inequalities that the State department report by your comments that it is hardly a crime against humanity – I guess that depends on whether you are supported by the inequality or restricted by it. For the record, despite your claims that I have not given you evidence (which is blatantly untrue) here is the report from the US State Department: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/nea/136070.htm The report is balanced and arguably pro-Israeli but even the Israelis ally, the US recognise that there are significant breaches of human rights by Israelis and the IDF – it does recognise achievements by Israel which are fair and proportionate too. It also recognises failures by Hamas and others on Palestinian/Arab side of the conflict. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:33pm @Stu that’s the most ridiculous thing you’ve done yet. You take my link to the US State Dept’s report and claim it as your own source of evidence. As I said to you before, the report shows incidents of racism and discrimination – as it does for every country in the world, including Britain. “So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed?” I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You’re lying now. First you call me an “anti-Arab” racist and now you’re saying complete BS. Just stop it. It only shows that those who insist on Israeli “human rights abuses” are liars and fraudsters. All your bluff and bluster and not a single piece of evidence. Just give it up Stu. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:54pm @Troll I didnt put words in your mouth, I merely interpreted what you said – if thats a misinterpretation I apologise, nonetheless it is a logical progression of what you said. Failing to investigate any allegation of torture is not a trifling amount of racism common to the UK or other nations. There are dozens of issues including detention without charge of hundreds of people simultaneously. Again there are many areas of praise for Israel, but its false and a lie to suggest Israel is a beacon for human rights in general. I’m not going to get into a schoolground tit for tat of who presented which evidence first – and because you gave the hyperlink first it was yours – or because I mentioned it before that it was mine. How juvenile. The fact is the evidence proves (who ever presents it) that Israel has good and bad practice in human rights. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 8:57pm @Troll It seems you have double standards. I misinterpret you (it appears) and I am putting words in your mouth. You quote me as saying something I havent and thats acceptable. You refer to “brown skins”, I pick you up on the inappropriateness of this and you castigate me for calling you racist (yet I never have used that label). If you are going to try and accuse me of things, at least try and make it factual. Although it seems you don’t like facts since you believe the fairy tale that Israel can do no bad. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:59pm @Stu you’ve decided to ignore facts and instigate a personal attack. What more can you expect from someone who refuses to fact-check but insist that what they know is “the truth”? Give it up. You’ve been found out. Stop lying. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:42pm @Troll With the greatest of respect – you have been personally attacking me throughout this thread and offensive – so trying to claim the high ground is laughable 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:43pm @Troll No matter how many times you try to convince yourself that I am lying will not make that lie true. 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 4:02am @Stu I only returned fire and called you nasty words when you began calling me names. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. You might not be actively lying but at the very least your leftwing politics are clouding your judgement. Your refusal to even read Wikipdia, The Times and Reuters because they don’t “fit” your belief system is worrying. It’s worrying because there’s people like you out there running around screaming “human rights abuse!” in regard to Israel and you might actually rub off on some people. If you’re not actively lying you probably suffer from confirmation bias and/or grandiose delusions. 0 Terry 30 Jun 2011, 7:05am “Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee.” You’re comment was barbed, do not insult my intelligence. You are racist. You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us”. You make me sick. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:42am @Troll I shall leave it to other readers to decide who was offensive first … and which were justified. There are time stamps on the postings, and it will be clear that you have been repeatedly offensive to me and others throughout this debate and tirade of yours. You are the only one to resort to expletives. You accuse me of saying things I have not – you fabricate things I have said – you lie. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:47am @Troll There you go again – you have no idea of my politics. The party I support is not in opposition. As for refusing to read the Times or Reuters … I have read The Times every day in the last seven bar one. The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there – if you make that up, how can I trust anything you say given your extreme Zionist bias? When I was viewed by occupational health psychologist (routinely and compulsory for everyone in my field – happens annually due to the emotional trauma I have to encounter) there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement – so for you to diagnose grandiose views etc from a discussion thread is remarkable! 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:01am @Terry “You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us” You make me sick. Slander. What more can you expect. All I did was ask what has the Arab world given us. You and seemingly no one else has given any examples. Numbers were a Hindu invention. How is that racist? Slanderous fool. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:08am @Stu “The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there” The first mention of the Times was at 28 Jun 2011, 1:01am “extreme Zionist bias” WTF asking for proof of human rights abuses makes me an “extreme Zionist”? What planet are you living on? “the extreme emotional trauma I have to encounter annually” – I think you’ve experienced too much trauma and need a holiday. “there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement” going by your other comments I think that’s code for there were concerns about your mental health. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:20pm @Troll I never mentioned The Times. You fabricate yet again. So again you resort to personal abuse (based without fact, evidence or logic) . This time to question my mental health. Always the sign of a some who is desperate in a debate to lower themselves to such tactics. Also, when you have never met the person – its not an opinion you could form one way or the other. A good indicator as to how you form your opinions and the strength of evidence you use to form your opinions. Thanks for caring, but my mental health is fine thank you. 0 David 28 Jun 2011, 5:17pm Well it’s only your ignorance to blame if you can not answer the second (racist) question… 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 1:48am But answering it validates the question so you have to be racist too. Stupid. 0 Reply David 29 Jun 2011, 7:56am Well no one answered it. You’d better get some knowledge about the world instead of spreading racism here… 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:24am F*** off calling me a racist. Tw*t. 0 ursus 27 Jun 2011, 9:26pm Of course israel isn’t perfect. It does have its faults. But it is a democracy, and it does uphold free speech and freedom of conscience for its citizens. In Gaza, there is a plan to exterminate LGBT people in a way that wasn’t that dissimilar to the annihilation of the Jews in Germany only sixty years ago. Many, as we well know, escaped and went to Israel. 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 10:54am And it illegally occupies another country, and in those illegally occupied places a toxically racist Apartheid regime is in force. The fact that LGBT people enjoy rigthts within Israel’s 1967 borders does not alter the Apartheid reality in East Jerusalaem and the West Bank. 0 Reply ursus 28 Jun 2011, 10:42pm I would rather have that than die by the slow strangulation method which is meted out in many islamist states. Apartheid? No, there is no apartheid. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 11:00pm “And it illegally occupies another country” Israel left Gaza and the West Bank years ago. “in those illegally occupied places a toxically racist Apartheid regime is in force. ” You’re correct. Hamas – the democratically elected government of Gaza – is a toxically racist Apartheid regime, denying women, gays, Jews and everyone else equal treatment under the law. Try to keep up with current affairs if you wish to engage in debate. Facts are hard to come by with anti-Israel extremists who prefer rhetoric and lies over truth. 0 Reply ursus 29 Jun 2011, 7:33am Thank God… Somebody who knows what they’re taking about! The Hamas regime is particularly cruel. I’d sooner be in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 9:51pm @Stu “the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling” You seem to be misinformed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel You could say Israeli foreign policy doesn’t meet your approval but even in its engagements in Gaza it follows the best practice any army could ever hope to do, as Col. Richard Kemp states: http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/06/13/former-british-armed-forces-commander-speaks-about-the-idf/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 10:10pm @TrollfromDamascus Israeli foreign policy certainly isnt fair and right (in my view). Its general human rights policy is also very concerning. Israel remains the only nation to be a constant permanent agenda item for every meeting of the UN Human Rights Council – this speaks volumes to me. A vast majority of nations backed this. A few other examples of the questionable status of Israeli human rights: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/un-human-rights-gaza-zeitoun http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10195838 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/637293.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7345025.stm 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 27 Jun 2011, 11:34pm What’s your point? A few mistakes isn’t “genocide”. NATO accidently killed a few families last week. Britain, the US etc aren’t committing “ethnic cleansing”. Yo nutters are obsessed with Israel and twist everything to fit your perverted ideology. “Its general human rights policy is also very concerning.” Do you bother to read links? Read the Wikipedia article on Israel’s commitment to human rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel You’re talking out your butt. 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 11:52pm I never said Israel was committing genocide. To consider genocide being necessary before human rights abuses are occurring is a pretty low threshold of what is acceptable in any event. If you read what I have said you will see I condemn both Israel and the Arab states and Palestinians. Israel are appalling on human rights but they are not alone. I prefer to consider authoritative reports from the UN, Amnesty and other respected bodies and the international media rather than the suspect WIkipedia. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 12:34am The problem is you say “the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling” when this clearly isn’t the case. You have no evidence for “human rights abuses”. If you mean racism, taht’s not the same as Apartheid and every country has racism problems. Wikipedia is not a source. It is generally neutral and requires you to do some research instead of relying on some blogger feeding you “facts”. Some sources from the Wikipedia page I linked to you: Princeton University Press International Human Rights in Context, Oxford University Press Yale University Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law Yearbook of the International Law Commission Israel Yearbook on Human Rights United Nations General Assembly The International Court of Justice Transparency International U.S. Department of State Reporters Sans Frontieres US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor International Herald Tribune Yet you’re under the impression Wikipedia is “suspect”. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 12:45am I merely follow academic convention on regarding WIkipedia as suspect and a poor source of reference 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 12:49am You need to evaluate sources yourself. You’re not authoring a thesis for peer review and citing Wikipedia as a source. Wikipedia is not a source. It takes its information from other sources. I easily link to the sources cited in Wikipedia but it’s easier to link to one page with every source collected together. Dismissing Wikipedia is BS. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:10am Here is one academic journal view on Wikipedia Wikipedia is blocked on the University website where I studied my masters 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 1:13am That’s just crazy! Probably too many people were citing Wikipedia as sources and not doing their work properly. If you know how to use it – read the citations, check the veracity of it – Wikipedia is a very useful tool. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:48pm You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs. 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:11am http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.20870/full 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 2:20am From the abstract: “After surveying the various concerns that have been raised about the reliability of Wikipedia, this paper argues that the epistemic consequences of people using Wikipedia as a source of information are likely to be quite good. According to several empirical studies, the reliability of Wikipedia compares favorably to the reliability of traditional encyclopedias. Furthermore, the reliability of Wikipedia compares even more favorably to the reliability of those information sources that people would be likely to use if Wikipedia did not exist (viz., websites that are as freely and easily accessible as Wikipedia).” Wikipedia does its utmost to be neutral and accurate. Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia 0 Stu 28 Jun 2011, 9:29am That is only one of the conclusions. I for transparency gave the article but in its entirity it does raise areas for concern and caution with regards wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use Wikipedia itself accepts that it is not credible in itself. 0 TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:49pm You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs. (correct comment placement) 0 Rich (original) 27 Jun 2011, 11:17pm “Michael Lucas is the most best-known gay porn producer and director in the United States and a columnist for The Advocate.” He is a male prostitute from Moscow….. Shameful creature, that’s all…. 0 Reply Stu 27 Jun 2011, 11:24pm His opinion has more coherance and evidence of understanding that you bowel movements 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 10:56am The fact that Michael Lucas is a Russian prostitute is not really the point. The point is that Pink News got a known racist to write an article in response to Peter Tatchell’s article. PN must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel if a bigot like Michael Lucas is the only person who they can find to defend Apartheid Israel. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:50pm “a known racist” Trying to discredit someone who doesn’t agree with your views is a common tactic with political extremists. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:00pm Lucas certainly appears to have some prejudices – I doubt you could demonstrate they were racist (although please prove me wrong). 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:07pm and I dont mean that I would be pleased if LUcas was racist before my words are twisted (sigh) … I mean if I am wrong, please show me 0 Rich's Dirty Mind 27 Jun 2011, 11:37pm Oh-ho! We talking from experience, you old dog Rich? Naughty boy, using prossies. Bad boy. Now come over here and I can spank you! 0 Reply paul oz 28 Jun 2011, 3:11am Peter Tatchell has a lifetime of defending human rights, not just gay rights. Michael Lucas has a ‘lifetime’ of exploitation. This just might be good publicity for Mr Lucas? While Mr Lucas needs to be corrected he doesn’t need to be given much attention. 0 Reply LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 3:58am Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest ‘apartheid systems’, that exist today. Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens. Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are: * Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion). * Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry). * Kurds. Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria. * Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania. * Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves). * Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces. * Assyrians, are 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 11:05am Israel runs an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. That remains a fact. 0 Reply Daniel 28 Jun 2011, 3:39pm No, Israel runs an occupation in the eponymous occupied territories. That may not be a nice thing, but it’s very different from an “apartheid” regime. Don’t use wrong words just because they conveniently have negative implications. Here, the anti Israel crowd begins to resemble the American Republican right — Israeli Apartheid is just about as meaningless to describe the situation in the territories as Obamacare is to characterize US health care legislation. Les extremes se touchent! 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:51pm Well done Daniel. It’s easy for people to trump up charges of “Apartheid” to make a political point. They go way overboard though and try to delegitimize Israel as a country and say BS like “Israel isn’t a democracy”. They’re political extremists. 0 Reply LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 4:00am Part 2 — * Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example. * Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic. * Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there’s great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups. Turkey’s policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as “foreigners” at the “moderate” Islamic supremacy of Turkey. * All non-Msulims in ‘Islamic Apartheid state’ of S. Arabia. * Asians [slaves!] in the Gulf Arab states. * Al-Akhdam in Yemen. * Gypsies in Jordan. — Islamic-Arab “Palestine” apartheid: * Ahmadiyya Muslims are harshly persecuted in (Pakistan and in) the “Palestinian” Apartheid 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 10:58am And Israel is running an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel really has lost the arguement if there only defence is ‘Oh but they are bad as well’. Israeli Apartheid cannot be ignored simply because of Arab problems. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:43am Israel left Gaza years ago. The terrorist organisation Hamas won free democratic elections and rule Gaza with an iron Islamic fist. There is no apartheid in Gaza except the Apartheid run by Hamas. You’re lying. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:17am If the situation in terms of access to Gaza, trade and ability to act as an independent state imposed by Israel on Gaza, is what you call free. Then your understanding of free is somewhat different to that of convention. 0 Reply TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:32am I said they won free elections. I agree access is restricted but it’s a neccessity for the time being see video. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:35am @TrollfromDamascus So “necessity” involves restricting freedom of liberty, freedom to trade, freedom of family life etc etc – all fundamental human rights …….. 0 Reply TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:54am Maybe if they stopped indiscriminately launching rockets into civilian towns every day they wouldn’t be under economic and travel sanctions… Just a thought. Worked for Gandhi. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:41am Sanctions do not normally involve storming humantarian aid shipments, using phosphorus on the population of Gaza, attacking a UN school (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7814054.stm) etc etc Israel have every justification to impose snactions and reasonable security controls. What Israel are doing is much beyond that and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 7:31pm @Stu do you actually read the articles you link to? From your BBC “evidence” “Update: In February 2009, the United Nations said that a clerical error had led it to report that Israeli mortars had struck a UN-run school in Jabaliya, Gaza, on 6 January killing about 40 people. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator in Jerusalem, said that the Israeli Defense Force mortars fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself. He said that the UN “would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school”. ” Your invective about “storming humanitarian aid ships” ignores the terrorists on board wielding weapons. Very peaceful of them eh? You’re the only one bing disingenuous. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:16pm @TrollfromDamascus Most merchant shipping particularly those that may transit certain areas of the Middle East and East Africa do carry firearms on board. In the heat of an attack by armed personnel and the panic of that, I would not be surprised if the firearms were drawn, were any fired – Israel never commented. Did the IDF identify themselves – Israel refused to comment. Were they in territorial waters, Israel were vague and Turkey argued they were in international waters. As for the school – was the health centre also a clerical error, were the other schools mentioned also clerical errors? What about the quote “Many claims cannot be verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a Supreme Court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory.” ? 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:20pm Be that as it may it doesn’t demonstrate “crimes against humanity”. As with Libya when you attack terrorists they use human shields and launch rockets from schools and neighbourhoods. Civilians get caught up in war but if Hamas stopped trying to wipe out Israel at every turn Israel wouldn’t have grounds to attack them and nobody would die. Peaceful resistance is the only legitimate form of protest if statehood is what Gaza wants. You can’t blame Israel for defending itself and label me a racist for saying that. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:45pm @Troll So multiple deaths on a vessel of humanitarian aid is not a significant concern or a breach of international law. Then your standard of morality must be very low! 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:48pm @Troll So you are going to ignore the other schools, the health centre, the rights of a humanitarian ship to bear arms in international waters when targetted by people who did not identify themselve, and then the killing of people on board, and the failure to investigate allegations of torture (surely there is something to hide with over 400 such allegations)? Israel have done a lot of good – LGBT rights, a brilliant health system, a sophisticated democracy – but not everyone is treated fairly and equally and there is a lack of respect for international law 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:57pm @Troll I certainly wouldnt castigate you or deem you racist for saying Israel should be able to protect itself (but the same right should be afforded to humanitarian aid shipments suddenly stunned by unknown forces in international waters?). I would question some (not all) of the methods of the IDR in “defending” Israel. I would argue that both Israel and Arabs could work more constructively to find solutions to the conflict. You can call me a liar but just in the US State department document alone there are dozens of breaches of international law either evidenced or suspected (and not investigated by Israel). Some serious, some less so … thats fact and calling me a liar doesnt change it. It also doesnt change my opinion that Israel have done some great things on human rights, and other areas but they do commit some acts with are flagrant breaches of human righrs. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:25pm Stu I’m sorry but I have to agree with everyone else on here. You’re an ass. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:26pm Final time: flotilla raid was legal; flotilla illegal. http://reut.rs/fAvIWO Get a grip. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:44pm @Troll I dont think you find every commentator was either against me or for you – again you misrepresent … strange how you keep doing that Turkey and Ireland and USA have all vouced concerns about the continued blocade of Gaza Numerous reports have indicated the event took place in international waters Turkey argues the force used was disproportionate even if the blocade were conceived as justifiable Why were so many killed including some who were unarmed. It also doesnt deal with the issue or torture investigations, phosphorus, cluster bombs, the attack on the Gaza health centre and mroe 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 1:25am @Stu you can’t keep saying “there’s evidence for and against”. The fact is the flotilla was illegal, the blockade legal. Saying that Reuters, The Times, legal scholars and everyone who’s ever looked at it are all liars is madness. Using Turkey – that known bastion of freedom – as evidence is pure nonsense. I’m sorry but you’ve shown how out of touch with reality you are. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:54am @Troll They said the blockade of Gaza was legal They said the intention of entering Israeli waters was illegal They didnt say the boarding of the vessel was in Israeli waters They didnt say the shooting of the crew was appropriate You are pushing the boundaries to say that a legal blockade means justification for boarding a vessel in international waters and killing a number of people You ignore many of my other comments, have racist undertones (brown skin, barbed comments, assuming someones second language is English and making snide comments….) You falsify things I have said …. Its clearly obvious for all to see, who is wrong here … and its clearly not me 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:36am @Stu “They didnt say the shooting of the crew was appropriate” in the US State Dept report you told me to read, it mentioned that The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:41am @Stu “You ignore many of my other comments” If I do I apologise the system here is quite disordered and gets bloated quickly, making it easy to lose track of what’s going on. However, you claim I “have racist undertones” because of this post where I say “Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course” and is decidely anti-racist; for if Israel was systematically dehumanizing brown people because of their skin that would be awful. However, racism is not apartheid and racism is not “human rights abuses”. Saying this does not make me a racist. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:29pm @Troll Well, with respect the Turkel Commission was far from independent. It was commissioned by the Israeli government with a former Israeli supreme court justice, a Major from the IDF, a former Israeli foreign office official and two Israeli professors of law. The supposedly independent observers were a former Canadian military judge and former Northern Ireland first minister David Trimble (both widely acknowledged as friends of Israel and who were both told before the hearings that they may be prevented from having access to some documents and whilst able to question all witnesses some answers may not be given in the observers presence – hardly transparency!). The commission had limited investigative and subpoena powers (therefore may not have heard all evidence) and did not meet recognised UN or international standards for a commission. The commissions chair threatened to resign because of the structure of the commission was too narrowly defined. The Israeli High Court of… 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:41pm … of Justice itself severely criticized the make up and remit of the commission and its ability to respect natural justice. Relevant NGOs who were interested in the event were prevented from giving evidence. The Turkel commission has limited if any credibility as acknowledged by some involved. I would therefore suggest Israel clearly breached human rights of those on board. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:43pm @Troll I do not recognise the comments you attribute to me as mine. As far as racism not being a breach of human rights … well depending on whether you are on the receiving end or the delivery end would depends on your perspective, I guess … regardless – racism is not right! 0 LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 4:01am Part 3 — * Descendents of slaves of the Bedouins are still stigmatized by racist “Palestinians”. * Christians are discriminated, persercuted against [especially since Y. Arafat's Islamization of Bethlehem], by Palestine authority and Hamas regime. — From anti-Jewish Apartheid: - The Arab racist apartheid against the Jews attempted genocide ever since the 1920s, (Like Mufti of “Palestine” at his incited massacres, and Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood who called simply ‘to kill Jews’). - Chased out a Million Jews in the late 1940. - Has boycotted and demonized [every logical defensive action is branded "racist"] the Jewish democratic-free-equal-to-all state only because it’s the “other”. It is neither Muslim nor purely Arab. - The Arab racist world continues to play with Arab-Palestinians (grandchildren of Arab immigrants) like ping-pong against Israel.<A HREF="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 10:59am And Israel occupies an Apartheid regime in illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. So what is your point? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:44am No SteveC Israel left Gaza years ago. hamas runs it now and they vow to destroy Israel and kill every Jew on Earth. Stop lying. 0 Reply LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 4:02am Part 4 — like ping-pong against Israel. — AND THE BEACON OF APARTHEID HAS THE AUDACITY TO CHARGE MULTI-RACIAL ISRAEL’S BEAUTIFUL DEMOCRACY [THAT OFTEN GIVES PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FOR ITS ARABS OVER JEWS|||||] WITH THIS TERMINOLOGY? THE ARAB DECEPTIVE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THAT ACTS AS IF ARAB-ISLAMIC GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN IS NOT OBVIOUS TO DETERMINE ISRAEL’S EXTRA SECURITY MEASURES [INCLUDING AN ANTI-TERROR / ANTI-MASSACRES WALL]. 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 11:00am And Israel operates an Apartheid regime in illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. So what is your point? 0 Reply LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 4:03am Part 5 – As if we don’t know the ‘Arab oil lobby’s power’ over the UN and other major international organizations and some African officials to go along with the Arab propaganda. Despite some non-Arabs who jump on this wagon out of: ignorance, of confusion complex, or of sheer bigotry, never forget, that this entire “apartheid, racism” label was invented by Arab racists ganging up in the UN since 1975. Even promoter of the apartheid-slur J. Carter admitted on CNN: “I recognize that Israel is a wonderful democracy with freedom of speech and equality of treatment under the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis.” Radnom fact: Israel is a secular system, its laws are based on the Ottoman and British-Mandate rulings that proceeded the reestablishing of the State in its historic place. 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 11:00am And Israel operates an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. So what is your point? 0 Reply LocoLoca 28 Jun 2011, 4:05am Part 7 — Last but not least: Isn’t it true that the anti-Jewish “apartheid” slur (Treat the ‘A’ word like the ‘N’ word, jpost) campaign is: A) to demonize Jews and B) to hide the real apartheid practice by the Arab-Islamic world? — A tiny ironic question, What would the bigoted: Arab-Islamic-Palestine-Apartheid regime do with the dreadful “queers-for-palestine”? 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 11:06am And how does this relate to the Apartheid regime Israel controls in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem? 0 Reply Terry 28 Jun 2011, 7:07am @ LocoLoca You’re entire argument is based on the “devil you know” complex, and is flawed. Just becuase the Arab world has less of a human rights record than Israel, this is not exonerate Israel, is simply shows up how desperate you are to defend an aggressive land-grabbing state. To use dictatorships in the Arab world as your benchmark to exonerate Israel of its internationally recognised crimes is pathetic. Israel is in violation of most of the 65 UN resolutions against it. Ironic so many here are blindly defending the rights of Israel to persecute other nations, and invade their land, given the circumstances that led to the creation of the state in the first place – pressed becomes the oppressors – a tragic and sad reality. At least have the guts to look at the situation from a historical and unbiased reality, not this desperate bull. 0 Reply Rowan 28 Jun 2011, 9:49am What has Michael Lucas done in the UK exactly? Who is he? I’d rather listen to Thatchell thanks. Great work Pink News. Not. 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 11:07am He’s sold some DVD’s of himself shagging ‘identical’ twins. 0 Reply Carka 28 Jun 2011, 10:16am “Anybody who compares the situation of Arab citizens of Israel to SA apartheid – or, even more stupidly, the situation in the occupied territories to the systematic exploitation of the majority by a small white elite – is simply whitewashing the horrors of apartheid.” I think you mean “the abused citizens of Palestine” – and I think it’s you who is holding the pail of whitewash. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:53pm They have their own government, the known terrorist regime of Hamas. Palestinians voted in democratic election to elect the terrorists Hamas whose stated goal is to murder every Jew on Earth. Hamas runs Gaza. How is Israel to blame for what Hamas does to its own people? 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 10:59pm Knowing what happens in Gaza is difficult as Israel will neither allow foreign journalist in but also censors international media broadcasts from Israel 0 Reply eddy two 28 Jun 2011, 10:55am lifelong porn star has a go at lifelong gay rights activist over gay rights. You can’t make this shlt up. Or can you? Does anyone really believe that Lucas took some time out to write this. Mind you it must have taken all of 2 minutes. I’m no fan of palestine. But I’m not fan of Israel either. Lucas should stop trying to be a politician. He’s made his bed, and he should lay in it with no clothes on getting fuked senseless. I might not agree with everything he says, but I’d rather listen to tatchell any day when it comes to gay or human rights issues. 0 Reply kane 28 Jun 2011, 11:47am in other words he should stick to what he does best, but then again he is good at licking (isreal’s) an ass too 0 Reply eddy two 28 Jun 2011, 12:16pm tbh, couldn’t care less for seeing him doing anything. he looks like barbie’s ken to me. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:24pm @Eddy Two I also don’t agree with everything Peter Tatchell says – although probably the majority of it – although I think Palestine has as many wrongs on its side as Israel do. I do think Lucas has some good points he makes and as others have commented he has previously spoken at the Oxford Union and Ivy League debating chambers. He is not a gay porn bimbo by any shred of the imagination. 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 2:50pm But he is most certainly a blatant racist. He believes that muslims should be barred from serving in the US military; he ignores modern mathematics when he claims that Arab society has never offered anything to society; and when he claims that Palestinians are terrorists first and people second he is straying into very dangerous racist territory. The prostitution game may be more financially rewarding in the US; but surely if he means what he says about Israel he would want to live in Israel? And even worse Pink News do not mention Michael Lucas’ history of vicious racism when they allowed him to write this column, I’ll say it again – Pink News must really have been scraping the bottom of the barrel if the ONLY person they could find to write an article in defence of Israel was a racist Russian prostitute. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 3:10pm @SteveC His opinion of Muslims in the US military is wrong. Islam isnt a race, so I wouldnt see it as a discrimination based on ethnicity or race but certainly an act of religious discrimination which is wrong. I think the argument about modern mathematics is a red herring here – I am sure we have all exaggerated in argument and debate using phrases such as “The Tories have nothing to offer”, when in fact they do have some credible points – and that was the context of that particular argument (in my view). I do think his terrorism argument is one that can be suggested to either side – so in this particular issue I would tread cautiously on the use of the word terrorism except perhaps suicide bomb attacks on buses in Haifa or Tel Aviv where its obvious. Equally you could argue some Israeli action is terrorism for and on behalf of the state. As for is he feels this way about Israel he would want to live there. I love and support New Zealand, but I dont live there. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 3:14pm @SteveC People can do things we think are wrong (or even be sure of being wrong sometimes) but still hold right opinions on other issues. I think Tony Blair was wrong to invade Iraq and that it was arguably a crime against international law. I think he did a great many other good things such as his involvement in the Northern Ireland peace process and introducing legislation equalising the age of consent. So Lucas may have religious prejudices, he may have other wrong opinions and some may find his career unpalatable – but none of these things mean he is incapable of reasoned arguments on some of these or other issues. 0 Reply kane 28 Jun 2011, 11:29am isralel today is what south africa was before 90′s 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 28 Jun 2011, 10:54pm That’s the most disingenuous statement possible to make against Israel. 0 Reply kane 28 Jun 2011, 11:13pm and was the Warsaw ghetto a model used by israel to built wall around palestinian areas? 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:22am Comparing Israelis to Naz*s tops off your previous statement. Many countries have walled borders – the US with Mexico for example. Egypt has opened its border with Gaza. Your comparisons are redundant. 0 Reply kane 29 Jun 2011, 7:55am you really think people on this forum r such idiots, comparing mexico with palestine tops off ur intelectual capabilities, i would even go futher in saying that jews in hitlers pre 1939 germany had much better than todays palestinians in warsaw style ghettos, after all hitlers germany was equally democratic country even by today standarts 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:33am It’s clear you’re an idiot. 0 kane 29 Jun 2011, 9:29am another intelectual gem from troll, in absence of valid arguments we get monosylabic insults from him 0 Terry 1 Jul 2011, 5:57pm “another intelectual gem from troll, in absence of valid arguments we get monosylabic insults from him” Indeed. Its all he can do when offered an conflicting opinion. Lets see if the paranoia follows, as is typical of an unbalanced mind. 0 Stu 1 Jul 2011, 6:35pm @Terry The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good). I am arguing that some of its record is not good and that this can not be ignored and the good should not be considered in isolation from the bad. It seems unless you toe the line and agree 100% cast iron without reservation with Trollfromdamascus that he will be abusive and undermine you with arguments that you havent made. 0 Terry 1 Jul 2011, 6:41pm Agreed, Stu. He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him, and prefers a school yard insult as a response. Its his way or no way, it seems. Lucky for us he has picked a name like “Troll” to alert us to his emotive insults in lieu of a rational argument. I’m guessing he has a lot of issues to resolve, ones that won’t be resolved with his blind bias on a gay site. 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:29pm @Terry, telling someone to “Fcuk off” and saying they have “an unbalanced mind” is what initiates name-calling in my defence. “He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him” BS. All evidence you presented I countered with evidence – as is the case here. Note how you disregard the links to Goldstone refuting his own report and instead say I “blindly defend one point of view without any consideration for the facts”. 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:43pm @Stu “The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good).” That’s not my argument. Look here for my argument and stop ganging up with that horrible cretin Terry. Asking for proof then when provided ignoring the proof and calling me a “a bigoted biased prejudiced and uneducated fool”. A man is judged by the company he keeps… 0 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 11:09am @Trollfromdamascus If your argument is so sophisticated that you have to condemn me for saying things I havent, fail to consider significant evidence I give (such as the lack of credibility of the Commission and the false information you presented about Israeli ambulance) and then become offensive – to be frank you don’t debate, you dont have an open mind and frankly how can I believe you with that sort of evidence 0 David 28 Jun 2011, 11:59am Israel is not a democracy period. It might be a beacon for gays but that does not make it a better country in general. 0 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 1:27pm @David I agree that Israel is generally not a good country. It is a beacon for LGBT people but its stance and approach to freedoms and human rights in general is astoundingly bad. Equally, Palestine and many of the surrounding Arab states have as bad (and sometimes worse) records on general human rights and certainly worse on LGBT issues specifically. We should not measure the humanity of a nation or people by how they treat LGBT people alone – although that should form part of the assessment. As for Israel being a democracy – in a sense it is, but in how it behaves – it is far from democratic. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:32am I know you hate Wikipedia because it shows facts you don’t agree with but truth is truth. Israel is not “astoundingly bad” in its approach to human rights. Equality for all regardless of race, sex or religion is at the core of Israel’s constitution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty “The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty. There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person as such. All persons are entitled to protection of their life, body and dignity.” Saying otherwise in the face of reality shows how out of touch and obsessed you are to demonstrate Israel as a demonic entity. I amgine you’re a hit in the mosques. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 12:32am *imagine 0 Reply David 29 Jun 2011, 8:01am Actions speak louder than words. For example why other religions are not allowed to teach their religion to jews in Israel? This would not happen if it was a democracy… 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:35am That’s the most insane thing I think I’ve heard. Got any proof or more wild accusations designed to delegitimize Israel/Jews. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:37am @TrollfromDamascus Try reading the USA States departments review of freedom of religion in Israel, that endorses Davids views – I agree it is ridiculous, but it is the way Israel are operating and its an abuse of human rights. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 10:15am @Stu I read the report and it doesn’t mention schools only teaching Judaism. It does say “Israeli Arab private religious schools are considered among the best in the country” Although most receive less funding than normal state schools. I think your criteria for “human rights abuses” is set too low. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:49am You can pick entries from the report which support Israel, that is true. However there is much in the report that does not paint Israel in a good light and demonstrates the significant improvements that Israel need to make. Such quotes include “There were reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious belief or practice. Relations among religious groups were often strained. “, “During the year NGOs filed numerous complaints alleging that security forces tortured or abused Palestinians”, “he NGO Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) reported on the lack of investigations of torture allegations, noting that, since 2001, not one investigation had resulted from more than 600 complaints of torture” and “The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; while the government generally respected these rights, in practice there were some restrictions”. These are just some examples. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 7:33pm @Stu the report on Britain is just as bad. Isolated instances of prejudice and generalised racism don’t make Israel or Britain a “human rights abusing nation”. Get a grip and put things in perspective. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:18pm @Troll Where does the report on Britain say that the UK authorities have never investigated a single allegation of torture? 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:29pm @Stu you mean the lack of investigation into white phosporous? Fine. But you extrapolate and exaggerate that into “human rights abuses” contrary to fact. From your own source of US State Dept: “the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct” 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:31pm And as for your flotilla nonsense: “the IDF investigation into the May 31 events concluded that the use of live fire was justified, although it criticized organizational and intelligence failures for not being prepared for the level of violence committed by some of the flotilla’s passengers. The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force. How about the Palestinians? “The PA and Israel took steps to address and investigate allegations of abuses related to the 2008-09 Operation Cast Lead conflict; however, NGOs criticized Hamas for failing to investigate abuses adequately. The odd lack of investigation is meaningless 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:06pm @Troll The lack of investigation of any of hundreds of allegations of torture is hardly the “odd lack of investigation” You keep coming back at me with – the report says this good thing and that good thing – and it does. Thats part of my point, I want Israel to do good things. Part of doing that is recognising where it isnt doing as good as it could or should be. Failling to investigate 400-600 (depending on which report you read) allegations of torture means someone high up in Israeli circles has decided those investigations will not occur. Thats failing to ensure transparency, legal redress and protection. Its a serious breach of human rights to torture (I know Israeli law does not permit it) but hundreds of allegations where no investigation has occurred causes concern. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:12pm http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Turkish-Ships-Join-International-Aid-Flotilla-to-Gaza-Strip-95143144.html 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:15pm @Stu until you provide links of academic or verifiable quality you’ve proved nothing. I’m sorry but you’re a rubbish debater. 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:17pm That link was posted before I replied. All it says is ships joined a flotilla. I really think you don’t know what quialifies as appropriate information. http://reut.rs/fAvIWO I’m sorry but I now realise you’re completely retarded. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:48pm @Troll And now you show yourself for who you are an offensive name calling person who tries (unsuccessfully) to manipulate comments made to suit his agenda. You are the one who has been offensive, resorted to expletives, and misrepresented whats been said by others repeatedly. You have no shred of credibility in debate. 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:51am Ignoring the facts, links, news reports and evidence again are Stu? What a surprise. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:57am The thing is you say you accept the State Department report. YOu say you accept independent media reports. You say you accept many things – but when they say things you dont like all you do is grasp onto the bits you like in the other reports … Its clear and plain for anyone to see 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:20am Words are easy … action doesnt follow in terms of human rights on a consistent basis 0 Reply TroIlFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:09am @David Israel is a democracy and is about as democratic as France, Cyprus and India. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:50am Democracies can still commit human rights abuses. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 7:35pm They can but Israel hasn’t. By your criteria of “human rights abuses” every time a black man is called a bad word Britain is guilty of “systematic human rights abuses” and a pariah state. I think you’re obsessed with Israel. Why? 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:21pm Your don’t like me misinterpreting what you say, so show some decency and don’t twist what I say. I have never used the phrase systematic human rights abuses – thats your phrase. I have never used the phrase pariah state about Israel. If I was obsessed that Israel was bad, then I would not acknowledge the good it has done, and present information that both condemned and criticized Israel. Nor would I condemn Hamas, Arab states and Palestine. Its clearly you who are obsessed because you refuse to see what anyone with an open mind can see 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:38pm I’m so open minded I actually read the links you give me and see the facts contained within them or do some research and find opposing views. I’m the only person who uses evidence to back up what I say. Please use facts when you speak not rhetoric. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:17pm You are so biased and fail to see perspective that any one saying anything contrary to you is either inferior (a tad arrogant there), lying, mistaken or you claim they said something they didnt, or you twist their words or you throw abuse. Now, I dont think you can deny I have thrown a lot of evidence at you now. You remain instransigent and come back with wishy washy comments like its just a few (400-600) failure to investigate (or TORTURE), its a mistake, its hardly a crime against humanity – however you try to minimise these errors and significant ones they are – they are breaches of human rights and paint Israel in a very poor light 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:28pm @Stu every piece of evidence you “threw at me” contradicted what you thought it said. Either you’re stupid or deliberately misleading. 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:51pm @Troll I deliberately choose some evidence that is grey – this crisis is not a black and white situation … and Israel is not blameless – no matter how you try and make an apple appear an orange – it will always be an apple. Israel have abused human rights and that is internationally seen to be true. deny it, but it doesnt change the facts 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 3:33am You’ve yet to provide one piece of evidence to demonstrate “human rights abuses”. Racism is one thing but human rights abuses is something entirely different. I don’t think you know what “human rights abuses” means and by saying Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools is “a crime against humanity” cheapens genuine human rights abuses. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 10:00am @Troll Its impossible even with cast iron evidence to prove someone or some nation did something bad if the audience you are trying to convince has two perceptions i) that the person/nation who did something wrong, never could and ii) that anyone suggesting that the did something bad is an enemy of that person/nation Even with convictions in the ICCt against Israel, or hundreds of resolutions in the security council against Israel (Oh there are …) you don’t accept it. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:51am @Stu you’ve probably gotten the wrong end of the stick with me. I’m far closer to your point of view than you suspect. I see Israel’s treatment as part of the “new anti-Semitism” and broadly agree with the US State Dept’s definition of anti-Semitism: “to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism…When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel’s actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and N*zis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz — this is anti-Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel…When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba and Syria, is ignored; 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 6:19pm @TrollfromDamascus Ok, there are some things we can agree on – and I suspect there would be some things we could agree on easier in a face to face debate rather than some of the difficulties of message boards (as entertaining (and at times informative) as they are). I agree condemnation of Israel can be overplayed (not always). I agree the use of the holocaust or N@z!sm in debate does not help either side in the conflict and does not achieve a good understanding – although it is imperative to remember it because of the historical influence it plays on regional mindsets and informs the actions of some. I agree other parties to the conflict have carried out horrendous acts against Israel and Israelis. I agree there are other horrific human rights abuses elsewhere globally eg Darfur, Uganda, China, Iran, Kashmir etc etc and they deserve condemnation and international vigilance too. (Although that does not mean the Middle East crisis should not be observed or commented upon by … 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 6:20pm … the international community. The one thing I profoundly disagree with you though is that there is legitimate criticism of Israel and some of that is in the form of arguable human rights abuses. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:57am …when Israel’s Magen David Adom, alone among the world’s ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross — this is anti-Semitism.” read more here The ICC is part of the problem. It’s why the only evidence of human rights abuses I will ever believe is independent corroborated accounts made by disinterested parties. Amnesty falls short of this. So forgive me if I refuse to accept third-hand accounts of “genocide” and 4,000 UN resolutions against Israel because racism is alive and well and those truly opposed to it are slandered here and elsewhere. 0 Reply Stu 30 Jun 2011, 6:28pm @TrollfromDamascus As a health care professional in the ambulance service (I am a paramedic practitioner to answer a question you posed on a previous thread), I will check what I can from international ambulance journals etc about Magen David Adom – I have heard of the service but not its claim to seek to be a member of the International Red Cross. Although to be frank, apart from the Red Cross itself (ie British Red Cross), I do not believe any ambulance service in the UK is a member of the IRC (I am not 100% on that and will check), but that would not make this discrimination on the basis it is the only ambulance service (but if there are other reasons it may be discrimination). I hear what you are saying about Amnesty – but I am sure you will accept that their reports on other human rights abuses internationally eg Cambodia, Guantanamo Bay, Darfur have been accurate (so why should Israel be different?). I accept there are frustrations from Israel about UNHRC atittudes – but… 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 6:32pm … the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part. The problem is also that by enforcing security in what is (arguably – although arguably not) a draconian manner – then this means many people may be seen to have human rights withdrawn from them. You could argue if that security was not there the Jewish people could potentially lose human rights – but then we end in stalemate and some people still lose rights. The lack of transparency (sometimes disguised as transparency) of Israel in its commissions and media restrictions particularly its censoring of international media and refusal to allow journalists to enter Gaza makes it completely understandable why Israel is seen with suspicion and derision. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 6:40pm @TrollfromDamascus According to Magem David Adom’s own website they are members of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent since prior to 2006 http://www.mdais.com/316/3555.htm The star of David in red colours is not accepted by the International red cross but the Geneva convention was altered to make a third emblem (red crystal) that Israel or other nations could use if required but did not prevent the red star of David being used in Israel. Whilst UK ambulance services support the British Red Cross and receive support from them – they are not members of the IRC 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 10:57pm In all sincerity, you should be congratulated for being a paramedic. I apologize for having a laugh at you earlier. I don’t know much about the Red Cross issue, from what I gather Israel isn’t allowed to use the Star of David wheras the Red Cross and the Red Crescent are allowed to be used. It sounds like a small issue. Now to Amnesty. Just because Amnesty can be seen to be neutral in one situation doesn’t mean it’s neutral in all situations. Indeed, holding rallies against Israel and inviting guest speakers who openly call for nuclear attacks on Israel immediately raises questions over Amnesty’s neutrality. I hear what you say about journalists being refused entry to Gaza and find it suspect. 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:00pm “the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part.” I agree with that, but it obviously isn’t the case that every report of “human rights abuses” is true – given the overwhelming hostility towards Israel and the biases of NGOs. A lot of the blame has to go to Gaza itself. Compare it to the West Bank – no problems there at all. Why? The West Bank has the PA in charge – not terrorists. Gaza has Hamas in charge – terrorists throwing hundreds of rockets across the border every year. If they renounced terror their cause will probably win very quickly. 0 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:00pm @Trollfromdamascus I am pleased at last that you recognise that there are some human rights abuses by Israel. Whilst I would agree that Hamas being leaders in Gaza has the ability to cause concern (and particularly for Israelis) – I do wonder whether Israel should consider the experience of Sinn Fein in N Ireland (they were regarded with similar suspicion to Hamas in the past). I wonder what you mean by “finding it suspect” that journalists have been refused entry to Gaza. Are you meaning that journalists and governments are being inaccurate in what they are saying? Even Israels strong ally the US agree that journalists are denied access to Gaza and states that throughout Israel foreign journalists are subject to censorship. 0 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:09pm @Trollfromdamascus Thanks for your kind words about my profession – although, thats not why I do it – I enjoy it and find it a challenge. I do not think all NGOs are biased. I agree there can be criticism of Amnesty – that does not mean (particularly when they have been seen to be accurate in many issues globally) that what they say in every instance in Israel is incorrect – in fact, I would argue there is a sustainable case in much of what it says. 0 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:17pm @Trollfromdamascus I agree with you that not every allegation of human rights abuses against Israel will be true or fully true. Due to the emotions, anxieties and bad feeling (to underestimate it!) there is a likelihood that some allegations will either be fabricated or in some cases exaggerated. Equally, as you have already agreed some claims will be true 0 David 28 Jun 2011, 12:04pm It’s always funny when ageing sexworkers trying to play smart with all the money in their pockets. How dare m.l. criticise Peter Tatchell with his baseless biased propaganda? All those years Peter were constantly fighting for human rights he spent with f…ing for money. m.l. is the last person whose opinion matters in this issue… 0 Reply SteveC 28 Jun 2011, 2:52pm Michael Lucas makes good ‘twin p0rn’ however. 0 Reply Lukas 28 Jun 2011, 3:54pm Twin porn comes from Lukas Ridgeston at Bel Ami, not Michael Lucas. Get your porn references right before you start throwing them around. 0 Reply Hope Winter Hall 28 Jun 2011, 3:09pm And yet Mr Lucas chooses not to LIVE in Isreal. A good record on Gay rights mean nothing if overshadowed by a very poor record in so many other areas. 0 Reply Jupiterray 28 Jun 2011, 4:05pm Peter Tatchell is a tiresome, anachronistic relic. How I wish he would simply go away or at the very least, just shut up. Tatchell is typical of the Left in this country. He sided with the vile and violent Muslims when he called for East London Pride to be stopped. Once again, as a cliched Leftie, he is opposed to anything to do with Israel. Come on Peter, admit the truth – you are a self-hating Jew and your true agenda along with the rest of the socialists in this country is the destruction of Israel even if it means getting into bed with the Muslims who would have no hesitation in killing you because you are both gay and Jewish. 0 Reply Rehan 28 Jun 2011, 5:50pm Since when has Peter Tatchell become Jewish? 0 Reply Malka 28 Jun 2011, 4:34pm The fundamental point to make against all of you who support a boycott of Israel is: why always only Israel. Yes, Israel has flaws, but they are certainly not greater than the flaws of its neighbours. Yet it is only Israel that you peoople want to boycott. Why? Why should we not see it as something positive that a meeting is held in Israel where there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss the Israeli-arab conflict with the people who are most affected by the conflict? The BDS-movement is nothing but a racist, dogmatic and bullying movement and should not be allowed to prevent international queer alliances to be made across ALL borders. 1 Reply Bryan 28 Jun 2011, 4:46pm 1) That Lucas makes adult films does not disqualify him from speaking out on any issue he likes. Trying to delegitimize him for this is just an argument ad hominem. 2) Israel is a democracy with a concern for the human rights of all its citizens. But, Israel is a State, and the foremost responsibility of any state is to protect its citizens. There are walls and checkpoints because the Arabs carry out attacks against men, women and children on buses, cafes, and in their homes. They launch rockets into towns from Gaza. If there were no attacks on civilian targets by Arabs, there would be no checkpoints, separation wall, etc. 3) Ask yourself: if the Palestinians were to unilaterally lay down their rockets and their suicide bombs today, and seek to live in peace with Israel, what would happen? And, on the other hand, what if the Israelis unilaterally dismantled checkpoints and security barriers, what would happen? 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 5:50pm Israel has a better human rights record than any of its neighbors. At no point in history, has there ever been a liberal democratic state in the Middle East — except for Israel. Of all the countries in the Middle East, Israel is the only one where the LGBT community enjoys even a small measure of equality. In Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, and Syria, homosexual conduct is punishable by flogging, imprisonment, or both. But homosexuals there get off pretty lightly compared to their counterparts in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, who are put to death. Israeli homosexuals can adopt, openly serve in the army, enter civil unions, and are protected by exceptionally strongly worded ant-discrimination legislation. Beats a death sentence. In fact, it beats America. 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 5:57pm Everyone knows that what happened and is still happening in Darfur is genocide, whether or not the UN and the Arab League will call it such. There has been a mass exodus from Darfur as the oppressed seek safety. They have not had much luck. Many have gone north to Egypt — where they are treated despicably. The brave make a run through the desert in a bid to make it to Israel. Not only do they face the natural threats of the Sinai, they are also used for target practice by the Egyptian soldiers patrolling the border. Why would they take the risk? Because in Israel they are treated with compassion — they are treated as the refugees that they are – and perhaps Israel’s cultural memory of genocide is to blame. The Israeli government has even gone so far as to grant several hundred Darfurian refugees citizenship. This alone sets Israel apart from the rest of the world. …and you call it apartheid? 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:02pm Following its age-old tradition, world opinion blames the Jews, and this time I happen to share that world opinion. This festering wound would never have existed had Israel not waived its sacred right to kill those who are trying to kill it. It is as simple as that. You would never see the Spanish government in peace talks with the leaders of the ETA — the British government would never negotiate with Thomas Murphy, Russian PM Putin with Chechen Basaev. And if President Obama were to sit down and talk about peace with Osama Bin Laden, the world would view this as insanity. But Israel can do the exact same thing — and earn international praise in the process. 0 Reply canadian 28 Jun 2011, 6:05pm The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a “nation” — or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled. 1 Reply Mark 28 Jun 2011, 6:51pm Michael Lucas is in his style. It is easy to see that most of the comments in his support here are from him. Real Gay Activists do not have a job. They just do not have time for that. Peter Tatchell is committed 24/7 to gay rights and human rights. Lucas is committed to earn money on porn, he is not doing it for fun, he is doing it for the sake of earning $$ and some time, he spend 5 minutes to support Israel’s policy and bash the muslims. Lucas loves Israel, but after all, he prefers to live in New York where he does not risk for his life like those who leave in Israel. if that is not a coward… I even find rather insulting from Pinknews to put Lucas in front of Tatchell. This is a different level. Lucas is so committed to gay rights that he never managed to support the LGBT community in Israel with donations. For someone who earned his fortune on the back of the gay community I find it rather disgusting. It just shows the man. He is here to advertise his name and his porn. -1 Reply Stu 28 Jun 2011, 7:38pm @Mark I presume some of that is aimed at me. Well I am not Michael Lucas – having some of his income would be very pleasant. I don’t support all his views – but I do support his right to air them and for PN to publish them. There are very much wrongs on the side of Israel but also on the side of Arab nations, the Palestinians and some of the international bodies. Its complex and will take some very wise people to resolve. Its either comedy on your part or low level paranoia to assume that people supporting Lucas are actually Lucas. 1 Reply ger 29 Jun 2011, 1:19am rubbish… this article comes from the man who filmed a gay porno in the ruins of an arab home which was demolished during the israeli bombardment of 1948… this makes me sick… the main problem is co-operating with a government that is defying international law and several UN resolutions and ICJ court rulings.. no matter what he sasys about gay rights in israel ( which are progressive ) the government there operates and apartheid regime -1 Reply Tony 29 Jun 2011, 2:42am “Peter was there. He should know.” Yes, he should and he does. What are the credentials of Michael Lucas? In seeing the Louis Theroux documentary I had a u-turn on Israel, there is a lot of good that goes on there but they seem to have a problem they are refusing to acknowledge with the behaviour of some of their citizens. The issue is that Israel isn’t a neutral country to host the event, it might well be the most tolerant place on the planet but it’s still excluding people. The other side of it is that the LGBT community as a whole risks increasing the hatred by association with Israel. In places like Croatia and Russia we see the rise in these violent homophobic groups, who are most likely anti-semitic in the extreme, this could inflame things further and by making it pro/anti Israel Israel is distracting from the fact that Israel is hated by the kind of people who would turn hosting a major lgbt event as more of a reason to target us. -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 2:54am Bowing to bigots is cowardly. You’re saying because bigots hate Jews the student organisation shouldn’t go to Israel? I too saw Louis Theroux’s documentary but it didn’t turn me into a raving anti-Israel lunatic. Yes they have problems with extremist settlers but even the settlers admitted they were breaking Israeli law. Stand up to injustice against gays and Jews. 1 Reply David 29 Jun 2011, 8:05am So what when the army is always on their side just as the government. Israeli law is very fluid when it comes to implementation… -1 Reply eastender 29 Jun 2011, 9:04pm we need to stand up against all bigots and fascists, especially the trolls who hijack this forum! -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:10pm Libelling people who ask for proof instead of hyperbole as “trolls hijacking this forum” is especially perverse. 1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:24pm What just against gays and Jews? Why not injustice against everyone? -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 9:44pm My point is Tony was using discrimination against Jews as a reason to not hold the student meeting in Israel. Nutter! 1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:19pm But why not say lets ensure justice for everyone – why highlight Jews and gays? 0 TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:21pm Because that’s the issue at hand here. What are trying to imply? 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:53pm No the issue at hand is broader than rights for Jews or gays – its about human rights in general … do you support human rights for all. regardless of background? 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:50am Your moral inversion is demonstrative of your beliefs. 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 4:10am You already called me an “anti-Arab racist”. Now you’re trying to say I only support the human rights of gays and Jews. You’re a twisted little man. For the record, I support the rights of all – except terrorists. Are you a terrorist sympathiser Nursey? 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 10:01am @Troll Where have I called you an Anti-Arab racist? Look hard, you won’t find it 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:21am @Stu here you said “Or maybe, you are so anti-Arab that it colours your views?” The idiot Terry is saying far worse here “Maybe you should shut the fcuk up with the anti-Arab nonsense you racist bigot” but I don’t know why you’re calling me a Zionist is this tied in with your idea of racism? 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:47pm @Troll I think the important word there is “maybe”. I didnt say you were. I merely offered an explanation which given your comments on this thread – was reasonable. I don’t know you well enough to make a formal judgement on your attitudes to everything (you seem to want to about me … oddly). However, many of your comments on here are decidedly anti-Arab I am sure Terry can defend his own comments and doesnt need me to – so why you would put those to me in a comment, is bizarre 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 7:27pm I was rounding you up together, as brothers in arms. “many of your comments on here are decidedly anti-Arab” Please show me the many “anti-Arab” comments of mine. I’d be very interested. All you’re doing is smearing me. 1 Reply Stu 30 Jun 2011, 8:08pm @TrollfromDamascus Why does that make me think of Dire Straits? You misunderstand me. I do not mean to smear you – if thats how you see it then, I apologise. What I am trying to say is that you appear decidedly pro-Israeli (in the same way you have accused me of being anti-Israeli). That could in itself be perceived as anti-Arab. Now, thats not to say you are – just that it might be perceived in that way. You have suggested I could have been perceived as anti-Israeli, but I have tried to explain that I see wrong doing on both sides and be balanced – I am neither pro Palestinian or pro Israel. -1 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 8:37pm Being pro-Israel, or not anti-Israel, doesn’t make you anti-Arab at all! You actually said “many of your comments on here are decidedly anti-Arab”. That’s a complete fabrication. It’s not a case of being pro-Israel and anti-Arab or vice versa. I can support Israel and support Arabs without there being any contradiction. Supporting the rights of one doesn’t mean hating the rights of others. I can support Israel and support the “Arab Spring” together because they share similar motivations. 1 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 9:03pm @TrollfromDamascus Well, there you see – strange because I think I can also criticise Israel and criticise Arab states and Hamas without there being any contradiction – which follows the same logic of you being able to support Israel and the pro-Arab spring … I also support Israel’s right to security, right to an identity, right to self determination (provided it doesnt oppress others). In the same way that I support Arab states rights to security, an identity and self determination (provided it doesnt oppress others). I also welcome the Arab spring (and hope it continues). I question the international communities severe condemnation of Egypt and its military action in Libya with little action seen in Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Algeria, Morocco etc. Not saying the action in Egypt or Libya is necessarily wrong but the lack of action elsewhere doesnt seem proportionate. Israel does a lot of good things – but unfortunately it does do some bad – has a PR disaster, and should improve -1 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 1:12am @Stu I’m not against criticism of any country, my only quarrel is when legitimate criticism is exaggerated into something else entirely. That’s dishonest and frequently based on hatred. Take this article for example. It starts off sounding tragic: “Mr Fahmi is one of thousands of Palestinians who over the past four decades have fallen foul of an Israeli policy stripping them of their right to live in Jerusalem” But when you get all the facts, it turns out: “Mr Fahmi’s family declined Israeli citizenship in 1967″. What starts out as a grave human rights abuse is actually not! 1 Stu 1 Jul 2011, 9:13am @TrollfromDamascus You claim you have discredited my evidence I would argue your examples to discredit my evidence eg the Turkel Commission (lacks credibility) and your comments on Israeli Ambulance IRC is clearly wrong from the information on their own website. Some of the things you have alleged I have said and either untrue, or you twisting what I have said to mean something I havent Bottom line, Israel has done some wrong things (maybe for what can be conceived by some as good motives – but that does not make them good acts). In my opinion, and you havent changed it because your evidence is not solid or independent – Israel rightly deserves criticism and praise. This is going round and round in circles. Thank you for an interesting debate. -1 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 10:40pm @Stu, it’s not your evidence nor mine, it’s the evidence available. As to your specific examples, the Turkel Commission clearly doesn’t lack credibility as it was under international supervision. Again it’s not “my comments” on Israeli Ambulances, it’s what I link to in reputable newspapers. I’m not saying Israel is whiter than white or competely good. Changing immoral or unethical acts into “genocide”, “apartheid”, “human rights abuses” or “crimes against humanity” when there is no evidence for that makes the person or group saying that appear foolish or deliberately misleading. The motives for such misleading may be good – helping Palestinians – or bad – anti-Semitism – but the outcome is the same: unfairly demonizing a country without due cause for a political purpose. 1 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 10:48pm How this ties in with Tatchell and gay groups that voted “no” for the youth conference in Israel is: 1) The decision is based on Israel “abusing human rights”. All evidence purporting to demonstrate human rights abuses is either uncorroborated, unjustified, blown out of proportion, or retracted. 2) Using such unjustified reasons from sources with dubious intent, misleading information or falsified claims shows Tatchell and his comrades are either not concerned with checking what they believe to be true is actually true, or they’re ignoring such questions in an effort to maintain “solidarity” with Palestinians. 3) Choosing to vote “no” is a demonstration of rejection of Israel as a whole. If, as can be plainly seen, the level of “human rights abuses” is nowhere near that which is claimed, voting “no” can be seen as attempting to interfere with Israeli foreign policy – something well out of the remit of a gay youth organisation. 1 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 10:50pm If Israel was habitually murdering Arabs in Israel, that would be one thing. It isn’t and attempting to hijack the IGLYO for political purposes to interfere with Israeli foreign policy is very strange indeed. 1 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:23pm @TrollfromDamascus I repeat again, the chair of the commission itself, the Israeli Supreme Court and many international (non-party) observers questioned the limited remit and the integrity of the Turkel Commission. As for the independent observers – Trimble is known to support Israel and Canada is a strong ally of Israel – hardly full independent scrutiny – why not Congo, Peru, New Zealand, Sweden etc etc … why choose two individuals who would not be considered impartial. You put words in my mouth – I have never used the words genocide or apartheid to describe Israel. The only time I have used apartheid is in response to another comment. Please if you are going to challenge things I say – make them about things I say. The fact that you say ALL EVIDENCE is uncorroborated etc etc when you accept my comments that some of the allegations must be true – demonstrates your inconsistency. I have tried to show balance and seen that there is fault on both sides, until recent criticism you… -1 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:27pm … have appeared to suggest that Israel was unfaultable – had never committed human rights abuses, that any criticism of it was unbalanced, wrong and biased. That is not a sustainable argument – the evidence proves otherwise and your evidence about the flotilla issue being disproven is based upon the findings of a limited and suspicious commission. I personally dont think there is a case for the IGLYO to not hold the assembly in Israel – and this has been my consistent position, but that does not mean I think Israel is an utopia for human rights. I don’t. -1 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 7:32pm You’re just smearing me as being “anti-Arab”. 1 Reply Malka 29 Jun 2011, 6:21am Tony, your suggestion is really a scary one. We should avoid having a conference in Israel because Russians and other are anti-semitic? Now what would that kind of thiking lead to? Remember: first they come for the Jews, then for the gays, then for all other people who “don’t fit in”. We should never – ever – collaborate with or adapt to racism! 1 Reply burningworm 29 Jun 2011, 10:41am The article is incredibly strident. I am a fan of Lucas, he did bring beauty back into mainstream porn. Outside of that the man is an apologist an intelligent fool. In years to come he and a great many others will throw their hands up and admit the wrong they participated in. To note the sentence about Tachell as a colonialist was great. -1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:57am Strident is probably a very good word to describe Lucas’ article. I don’t think everything he says is wrong though. He certainly has good points about Israel’s LGBT rights record, and the fact that some of Tatchells arguments could be perceived as a smokescreen (I’m not convinced they are). He also has good points about the relative LGBT rights in various Arabic states. He does raise some tenuous arguments. Israel have done a lot of things right – democracy, LGBT rights, created a good social infrastructure, impartial and fair justice system (on the whole) etc etc but they are not whiter than white – but then nor are the Palestinians, Hamas, Syria, Iran, etc. There needs to be balance and perspective. I do not see why a youth LGBT assembly should not be held in Israel however. 1 Reply walt kovacs 29 Jun 2011, 11:11am when is the next gay rights parade in gaza city? how about ramallah? 1 Reply Stu 30 Jun 2011, 12:15am Israel wouldnt let us in …. -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:53am Good argument. 0 Reply Samuel B. 29 Jun 2011, 2:29pm Mr. Lucas, you had your say in your article. Who gave you permission to hijack this forum? Benjamin Cohen, the publisher, who perhaps himself has a self-interest to declare where Israel is concerned? -1 Reply Samuel B. 29 Jun 2011, 2:32pm Perhaps as a British Jew myself people would think I have an interest to declare. This is true: I totally and utterly abhor the rogue, terrorist state Israel has become as indeed do thousands upon thousands of Jews around the world and in Israel itself. Not in my name. -1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:20pm Thanks for some common sense based on reason and perspective Samuel -1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:33pm If anything his argument was based on emotion and hyperbole, not common sense and reason. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:55pm I suspect your comments are emotionally based and you certainly have demonstrated and art for hyperbole 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:52am I suspect you’re an ass. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 10:02am I share the same view about you, Troll 0 Mario Kleinmoedig 29 Jun 2011, 2:52pm Is this piece really written by Michael Lucas? And this is not because I condemn his profession or don’t know that he is highly intelligent and a genius in his work. It’s because this is NOT his style of writing about this particular issue AT ALL. What?? No derogative word about Palestininans, Arabs and Islam???? No unabashed zionism? Must have a damn good ghostwriter. Wha Haappen? Now, on the contents: Of course Lucas is mostly right and Tatchel is also right. Israel IS a terrorist state and it’s laws DO respect gay rights, Voila. The only gay people discriminated by the state in Israel are gay Palestinians, not because they’re gay, but because they’re Palestinian. But hey, according to Lucas, the gay Palestinians fare worse in Gaza. True. But one does not redeem the other, and gay rights are not the only human rights. And Palestinians have a right to fight for gay rights in their own country one day, just like the people of Israel. Something Lucas doesn’t understand… -1 Reply Azzazin 29 Jun 2011, 5:12pm My first thoughts exactly. Mr Lucas quite obviously didn’t write this article, and it no doubt came from a similar source as the You Tube video about the latest Gaza Flotilla, a story Pink News seems to have ignored, despite it being as relevant as the recent gay blogger hoaxes. -1 Reply Tom 29 Jun 2011, 4:13pm What’s this waffle about integrity and moral decline? Not too long ago we would all have been condemned on that basis. A bunch of gay men making ad hominem attacks on the basis of sexual ethics is really quite disturbing. As for the article I thought he made some good points. I thought Tatchell did too. It’s a tricky issue, and opinions differ. Good for PN to run two contrasting opinion pieces, it’s much more informative. 0 Reply Peter Tatchell 29 Jun 2011, 5:10pm Pink News published a heavily edited version of my complex, nuanced statement on this issue. To read my full statement click here: http://www.petertatchell.net/international/israel/no-lgbti-conference-in-israel.htm -1 Reply Rich (original) 29 Jun 2011, 9:06pm Peter, I know that you are neocommunist and homosexual degenerate, and I really feel sorry for your sufferings from mental derangement…. 1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:27pm Will someone show this troll the door, please 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:29pm Looks like you’re here to stay. 1 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 11:29pm :( 0 Stu 29 Jun 2011, 11:57pm Yeah, this (non troll), man of reason and perspective, passionate about LGBT rights, combatting hatred and breaches of human rights, and confronting bigotry, arrogance and cruelty in all its forms – is here to stay xxxxx -1 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 12:49am I’m starting to think Stu is really Peter Tatchell. The same speech patterns, the same arrogance, the same inability to comprehend facts at hand, the same dogged determination. Admit it Stu, your birth name is Peter isn’t it? :) 1 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 10:03am @Troll Someone thinks I am Michael Lucas, and now you think Im Peter Tatchell … No, I’m me – an individual born Stuart, still Stuart … -1 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:30am Actually Stu I do quite like you, especially in comparison to that evildoer Terry. I genuinely don’t agree that what you say is true. As I said here the main evidence of human rights abuses has been retracted by the report’s author. I haven’t seen any reports of deliberate human rights abuses, and even our own army agrees Israel is very good at respecting human rights as I said here. This doesn’t make me an anti-Arab racist as some would contend! 1 Terry 1 Jul 2011, 5:55pm “I’m starting to think Stu is really Peter Tatchell.” A lesson in foolishness: (1) Make wild accusation about something, provide no facts,. (2) When challenged, insult. (3) Follow up with paranoia and further personal insults to cover a lack of evidence for ones own case. Bravo, TrollFromDamascus. What a stunning example of this you are. We’re all dazzled by your intellectual prowess. -1 Stu 1 Jul 2011, 6:39pm Thanks, Terry The one you missed is when becoming vexated because you are being given coherent argument – try and dramatically about face and appear to befriend the person/people you have just being offending 0 Terry 1 Jul 2011, 6:44pm Stu, I’m just staggered at his lack of emotional intelligence. I see all your opinions and arguments were dismissed by him, and then topped off with this little gem of paranoid bullsh!t. I commend you on your patience in dealing with this uneducated trash. -1 Will 1 Jul 2011, 10:54pm Smartest thing you said all year, Rich. Bully for you. -1 TrollFromDamascus 2 Jul 2011, 12:28am @Terry the :) indicates a joke. Too bad you’re a po-faced Israel hater. I wonder why that would be. Got many SS uniforms in the cupboard? This is how I imagine Terry on his keyboard. 1 Terry 2 Jul 2011, 12:37am Godwin’s Law at work again – the recourse of the foolish and the idiotic. Well, you’re a waste of time and space, so I’ll just leave you to your tantrums, Troll. Try not to hurt yourself. Bye now. -1 TrollFromDamascus 2 Jul 2011, 12:48am @Terry I really wish you would leave me alone instead of harassing, lying, defaming and BSing. We all know you’re obsessed with Israel and now me so I think it’s very unlikely you’ll leave your losing argument alone. Your hypocrisy: say “He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him, and prefers a school yard insult as a response.” Yet I provide evidence and you say: “lack of emotional intelligence…paranoid bullsh!t…uneducated trash…foolish and idiotic…a waste of time and space…a simpleton.” 1 Will 2 Jul 2011, 12:48am “Too bad you’re a po-faced Israel hater.” I have been reading all too many extreme comments like this up to now. I do not believe making any critique on any country deserves this kind of response. Israel, like all countries, has both a good and bad human rights record. Unfortunately, the general consensus its is not mostly good, alas. Making an observation on a country’s democracy is in fact the essence of democracy itself. Why do you insist in a constant stream of abuse to others on this thread? You sound deranged, and its not like we need another one of this kind on this site, we have enough right wing morons like Rich to do that. You don’t have to agree with other opinions, but “Israel hater” is a bit ridiculous. -1 Will 2 Jul 2011, 1:02am “What are you talking about? Provide evidence of this.” You can’t be serious, are you? You referred to someone above for having SS material in a cupboard, yet you also accuse someone else above for having a lame argument for using a similar comparison. You referred to another as an “ass”. You used the term “a liar and a fraud”, “extremists” and “retard”. I find you denial of this apparent behaviour quite enlightening. You are not behaving like a rational individual if you think the above statement are anything but offensive. I’m not defending similar remarks make about you, far from it, but the constant theme of this thread is you jumping don everyone throat on any opinion that differs to yours. I suggest a few deep breaths and a lesson in decorum. -1 Will 2 Jul 2011, 1:14am I have absolutely no interest in debating on this, the argument was lost by both sides long ago in a mire of puerile insults. I hold my own well informed opinions of Israel’s human record, or lack of, and nothing I have seen here has made me change that opinion either way. You are of course entitled to think my pointing out your lack of respect, decorum, and free use of derogatory words like “retard” is “is very telling”, or somehow backing up others in this, but I assure you, you are quite mistaken. I have simply pointed it out to you. You choose to go on the defensive, which is not surprising really. I prefer to debate rationale, so please excuse me from this thread, I will not be posting further. I suspect others probably feel the same, this thread seems to have run its course. -1 Will 2 Jul 2011, 10:51am I think I can say with some certainty from that last post you have some obvious mental health issues, troll. Not sure what they are exactly, but you only read what you want to read, and your logic is perverse. No matter, this site is full of people like you. I can now see why so many other people here have had such an adverse reaction to you – its quite deserved, I’m afraid to say – there is clearly something wrong with you. By all means, carry on your one-man insult brigade to an empty room, I have no intention of engaging such a rudimentary individual like yourself any further on this nonsense. You’re quite pathetic, actually. Good day to you. -1 Stu 2 Jul 2011, 9:34pm @Will I fully accept that I have been frustrated and lashed out a few times on here and other threads at some including TrollfromDamascus, it is infuriating that he can not accept the balance I am trying to demonstrate. I also have my own well informed views on Israel (some good, mostly not good). I find it frustrating that he had a jibe at me about mental health issues and then complains when someone resorts to similar comments. That he can not see his bias and weak acceptance of some of the Israeli propaganda (admittedly there is propaganda from others too) demonstrates a lack of inquisitiveness in his mind suggestive of an intransigent viewpoint. -1 will 2 Jul 2011, 11:33pm Stu, you have been more than patient with him, as usual. More than i am prepared to do. -1 connor wallace 29 Jun 2011, 7:03pm I’d much rather listen to an actual activist like Peter Tatchell, than a prostitute. -1 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 7:23pm I’m grateful for the option to listen to both Tatchells view and Lucas’s. They both have valid points to make. I think Tatchells condemnation of Israel is fair and proportionate. I think Lucas’s celebration of Israeli LGBT equality is fair and proportionate. I do not think the IGLYO should change the location of their assembly, but should use this as an opportunity to globally highlight the desire of LGBT young people from around the planet on the important issue of human rights (not just LGBT rights) 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 29 Jun 2011, 8:37pm Tatchell’s only “condemnation of Israel” is its claiming of land after a 1967 war. As far as I’m aware after wars are won and the victor determines the borders, that’s the end of the matter. His article is a nonsense and your attempts to prove it are meaningless. 0 Reply Stu 29 Jun 2011, 9:31pm You completely misunderstand my opinion then and debating with you has been pointless. What I am NOT trying to do is support either Tatchell or Lucas – neither Israel nor Palestine. I am trying to say the Crisis is of such a magnitude that both sides have to recognise their sttrengths, their weaknesses, their successes and their failures and seek to move ahead in a constructive way. Israel failing to engage effectively with Arabs will ultimately damage Israel. Depending how far you go back in history you can say its Israels fault, or the Arabs fault – one thing is certain letting this situation continue is both sides fault. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 3:54am You completely misunderstand my opinion then and debating with you has been pontless. What I am NOT trying to do is demonstrate you support Tatchell or Lucas nor Israel or Palestine. It isn’t one or the other. You must find it hard to deny you said Israel “abuses human rights” which is what Tatchell says. All I’m saying is you and he have no proof of this. Saying Islamic schools don’t get funded to the same amount as state schools isn’t “a crime against humanity” and your example of terrorists onboard a flotilla getting killed is demonstrably legal and just. I think your politics obscure your judgement, Nursey. 0 Terry 30 Jun 2011, 7:11am “All I’m saying is you and he have no proof of this” Proof? Are you blind? (Well, yes you do seem to like ignoring any truth that “offends” poor innocent Israel) Most of the UN resolutions against Israel have been ignored. I assume you haev read the UN Goldstone Report? You should. ““We came to the conclusion, on the basis of the facts we found, that there was strong evidence to establish that numerous serious violations of international law, both humanitarian law and human rights law, were committed by Israel during the military operations in Gaza,” the head of the mission, Justice Richard Goldstone. You are biased, TrollFromDamascus, as you name suggests. Maybe you should shut the fcuk up with the anti-Arab nonsense you racist bigot and get some proof of your own to back up your biased one-sided defence of Israel.. 0 TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:15am @Teryy the most disgusting invertebrate on here. “UN Goldstone Report” Goldstone retracted his own report: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html “shut the fcuk up with the anti-Arab nonsense you racist bigot” Demonstrate this racism of mine. Show the quotes. “and get some proof of your own to back up your biased one-sided defence of Israel..” All I’m doing is questioning what you think is fact. Don’t be such a t0sser about it. Show me where I’m “racist”. You’re a stinking liar. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 5:51pm No, I fully stand by my comment that Israel abuses human rights. Tatchell may also have said that – so what we agree on that. I also agree Israel have a good record on some human rights. The two are not mutually exclusive. 0 Terry 1 Jul 2011, 5:52pm “@Teryy the most disgusting invertebrate on here.” Yeah, typical emotive and pathetic response from those who blindly defend one point of view without any consideration for the facts. You should get an edcuation, then you might be able to actuality defend Israel for the hordes of murdering Arab terrorists you seem so obsessed about, and poor innocent Israel. You are a buffoon. 0 TrollFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 2:00am @Stu I don’t think you’re a bad person, just selective in your readings and a tad biased against Israel. Sorry for calling you an out of touch simpleton, I should have been more eloquent. Refusing to read and American newspaper, Wikipedia, The Times, Reuters and every other news organisation except the BBC is a bit strange so maybe you could work on letting more opinions into your life. No hard feelings Petey I mean Stu :) 1 Reply Terry 30 Jun 2011, 7:13am “maybe you could work on letting more opinions into your life” And the same goes to you…. you’re biased, refuse anything that upsets your “truth”, you’re offensive, and racist. Coffee, wake up, smell, sweetie? -1 Reply TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:25am “you’re biased” I review all evidence impartially, it’s not my fault all your “evidence” is later retracted or nonexistant. That doesn’t make me a racist but smearing someone who tries to look impartially at Israel as a “racist” makes me think you have a problem with any neutral or positive presentation or facts from Israel. It’s clear you’re an angry violent person with an extreme temper and a loose grip on reality. I suggest you keep your mouth shut if you don’t wish to be thought of as a lying POS :) 1 Reply TroIlFromDamascus 30 Jun 2011, 10:26am @Terry you’re a nasty piece of work. 1 Reply Terry 1 Jul 2011, 8:15am Nasty to a bigoted uneducated fool like you. Start putting up some proof of your bullsh!t, then we’ll take it form there. Personally, I’m bored of your rubbish, your a biased and prejudiced fool. 0 Reply TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:07pm @Terry “Start putting up some proof of your bullsh!t, ” If you refuse to click links, that’s not my problem. “your a biased and prejudiced fool.” Actually I’m the opposite. I read all accounts and judge based on the evidence and its reliability. Such hatred against Israel and anyone daring to rationally look at the situation makes you an utter retard and a hypocrite. 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:35pm @Terry why are you refusing to look at contradictory evidence from reputable sources? Why are you instead namecalling? What have you got to hide and fear? 0 TrollFromDamascus 1 Jul 2011, 11:36pm For th final time Terry, here’s the proof retracting your one and only claim to “evidence”. Click it and let’s have no more of your lies. 0 Terry 2 Jul 2011, 12:32am Address the UN resolutions first. 0 Terry 2 Jul 2011, 12:35am “makes you an utter retard and a hypocrite.” Ah, yes. Because I dare to questions the black and white world of a simpleton like you, the insults come. Next, I will be Peter Tatchell? Nice us of the word “retard”, a reflection of your emotionally difficult position and lack of general decorum. Buffoon. 0 Stu 30 Jun 2011, 10:05am @Troll Nice try to sound nice guy … Petey – sheesh – desperation My reading material – Amnesty reports, The Times, The Guardian, NZ Herald, Washington Post, and varipoous other sources including the BBC -1 Reply myself 2 Jul 2011, 11:43am Yawn. I see the TrollFromDamascus has now become the ObsessedBoreFromDamascus. He really need to up his antipsychotic medications. What a freak.