completely agree. people seem to rush to condemn israel but they dont appreciate the state has the most advanced democracy in the middle east, is the only champion of gay rights there and frankly, in any ther country around there, gays are hanged. So research before you rush to judge,
errr, people “rush to condemn israel” because it’s a terrorist state which imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip, steals land from the Palestinians in illegal settlements and discriminates against arabs within its own border. They could be the most tolerant country in the world when it comes to LGBT people, that’s not the point.
We have learned PC statements trough collective feeling of guilt that media impose on us for last 6o years but in our core we know Israel is deeply intolerant and chauvinistic country run from NY. Met some great people there thou and love the Holly land. Repressed became the oppressors. Same as happened to black community. Before calling me racist think about it. I have Crescent with David’s star tattooed on my arm.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 60 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
Defending yourself against terrorists makes you the terrorist? this inversion of reality is very strange.
“imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip”
WHy do they have to let in 1.6 million people into Israel, many of whom want to blow them up? Egypt has now opened fully its border with Gaza. How is Israel imprisoning 1.6 million people in a concentration camp?
“discriminates against arabs within its own border”
Do you mean some people in Insrael are racist? Golly. Israel’s Declaration of Independence requires legal equality for all regardless of sex, race or religion.
all “facts” mentioned completely untrue. Only Iran hangs gay people. period. Iran is a democracy like Israel. Democracy for me and slavery starvation slaughter for you. In fact Kurdistan, Turkey even Kuwait are more democratic than Israel. And homophobes in Israel are the same people assassinating american citizens unarmed american citizens assassinated by IDF I lived there so I know. Do some research. don’t mp3 back Israeli hate propaganda from Israeli lobbyists. IDF tortures Americans including 100%disabled USA vets. It targets children.
I am afraid that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago.
The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which Carter had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States, Canada, Australia and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.
Britain and US ended Iranian democracy in 1953 in operation Ajax overthrowing Prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh instaling Reza Pahlavi. Let’s not pretend we on West are victims. We go around the world stealing and killing and sooner or later it comes back to us.
Jews live happily in Iran without any victimisation. I’m not saying Iran is perfect, but Israel is an illegal state that justifies their own Holocaust of Palestinians with what Hitler did to them??? What about the 5 million dead in the Congo? 750,000 in Rwanda? The other more than 50 million non-Jews killed in the war? No, all we hear on our news and media is about ‘poor old Israel’. Good luck finding anything on the Discovery channel or any other channel about any other holocaust but the Jewish one. The only thing that illegal F*scist hive ever learned was to be just the same as the N*zis. The sooner that terrorist state is gone the better. We’re sick of hearing about ‘poor Israel’ in the Jewish owned media while the IDF slaughters women and children and treats the rest like dogs. The world woke up and saw through the propaganda, Israel is finished now.
Whilst I do accept Israels interpretation of the holocaust and I do understand that this has good reason to make Israelis concerned for their security – what it does not do is give grounds for partition and the human rights abuses they have commited. There have been some good acts by Israel, that can not be denied, but equally there have been murderous and inhumane actions.
Because you don’t know much about him? He’s been writing about this kind of thing for years, spoke at the Oxford Union about it as well as Ivy League and other universities across America. He’s not your average porn bimbo.
Firstly, can I saw congratulations to PN for putting two very articulate reports with contrasting views on this point.
There are lots of wrongs and rights in terms of the big picture of human rights in Israel – on both sides of the argument.
On the specific issue of LGBT rights – Israel has done a fantastic job compared to other nations close to it.
I would not want to make a judgement on LGBT rights alone when judging a nation on human rights – but they are rights that speak to me as a gay man. Equally I would want liberty, freedom of speech etc.
I respect Israel for its stance on LGBT issues but I feel its approach to human rights and intransigence in terms of working with the Palestinians and international community to find a solution to the situation there is disappointing.
However, I am no more concerned about the situation that I am about Morocco, Sudan, Uganda, Syria, Bahrain and many other places.
I agree LGBT events ideally should be held in locations where all are …
…able to attend and international travel bans are far from ideal in this situation. However, I do think Israel deserves its plaudits and support for its stance on LGBT rights and comment can be made on the wider political situation by delegates – and it is one conference – there will be others.
What should Israel do in the absence of internationally recognized legal basis for her rather feeble attempts to defend herself? Only one thing: free herself of the corruption of moral relativism, ignore the irrelevant opinions of the Europeans, and summon the necessary courage to use her superior military might to enforce her own concepts of good and evil, her own understanding of right and wrong with the maximum efficiency and minimum loss of life on her side.
This is equally true for Israel in its suffering from the never ending pan-Arab war against it and the West in its War on Terrorism. After all, every passing day brings new evidence that the two wars are actually one and the same.
Wait for China to emerge as a top economy, Israel will be back begging Europe, no 2 economy, for help. World is slowly loosing patience with Israel stubbornness and arrogance
Israel is to be applauded for it’s mostly pro stance on LGBT rights.
It’s other human rights are in a shocking state of affairs however.
There’s a good reason why people regard it in the same way as they used to regard South Africa in the 1980′s.
I have some sympathy with your comments – particularly the fact that the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling. I can see it comes (in part) as a defensive strategy but this does not justify it.
I do wonder what benefit an LGBT youth group not holding their conference in Israel would do to improve general human rights. Does it really carry that much weight?
i prefer a more reliable source than Wikipedia – and the reputable sources I have considered demonstrate that Israeli human rights are generally appalling. The UN Human Rights Council also seem to think so, as do Amnesty International and many governments.
Wikipedia isn’t a source. It’s an encyclopaedia. It takes its information from primary sources. The opening sentence on Human Rights in Israel is
“Human rights in Israel have been evaluated by various human rights treaty bodies, intergovernmental organizations, non-governmental organizations and individuals.”
You have no basis to libel Israel by saying “Israeli human rights are generally appalling.” You’re denying the truth. Why?
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which can be editted (and has been) to include false information. It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence. Personally, it has its uses but is poor to demonstrate facts.
I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. You havent addressed that. I am satisfied that along with common opinion in the human rights movements Israel is regarded overall as breaching international law (indeed it has accepted that it has on occasions) and sorely in need of improving its human rights record.
Just because Wikipedia can be edited by everyone doen’t mean it’s full of junk and not open to review, scrutiny, and fact checking.
“It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence”
Wikipedia is not a source of evidence. It gets information from primary sources with the intention of educating the world. Maybe you prefer to get your information from Amnesty International with no oversight, no proof, no quality assessment, no verification, no authority and no reliability.
If you refuse to trust verifiable information simply because it finds its way onto Wikipedia, I don’t think you understand what Wikipedia is, the way it works or how it should be used.
“I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. ”
OK the flotilla incident – now regarded as agitators while Israel acted within the law:
1) “An official Israeli report has acknowledged for the first time that the Israeli security service tortured detainees…Two years after the report was written, the Supreme Court banned the use of physical force in interrogations.”
2) “He has been arrested four times by the Israeli security services, accused of stone-throwing and vandalising security cameras in the Old City. He says he has been detained each time for a few days in one of Jerusalem’s interrogation centres, and then sent home under orders not to leave the house for another few days.”
The humanity!
It also mentions bringing in family members giving the impression harm may come to them if they don’t confess to crimes.
“Human rights group the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) says a pattern has emerged recently of the security forces using such tactics with Palestinian interrogees”
OK they shouldn’t do it but it’s not too bad + now it’s in the papers theyll probably stop.
The UN Human Rights Council is a joke, and includes Syria and Libya as members. Even the past two heads of the UN have said the Human Rights Council is a joke.
It’s an Orwellian joke that pretends it cares about human rights, when it’s whole purpose is to deflect attention from the human rights abuses of its members.
Regardless of the voracity of the UNHRC in the past – over 140 nations supported maintaining Israels human rights record as a permanent agenda item for UNHRC – no other nation has caused such concern for so many nations on the grounds of human rights.
Amnesty voices repeated concern.
There were simultaneous attacks by the Israeli military on Palestinians, the West Bank, Gaza and their borders a few months ago resulting in dozens of civilian deaths.
The incursions which occurred on aid ships to Gaza (which despite your reassurances that they were agitators) are still severely concerning to the international community.
To suggest Israels record on human rights generally is good is blinkered and wrong
but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police?
Well said Jamesh. I hadn’t bothered to look because it was Wikipedia – but looking through what appears a well balanced entry that you give – just reading for a few minutes and I have noted a dozen human rights significant infringements by Israel. Palestine have a long way to go with human rights too, and many of the Arab states have much further to go. But to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie.
@Jamesh the so-called “human rights abuses” are not really that: denying statehood isn’t the same as torture. Stop misleading people.
@Stu “to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie.”
Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course. You have no evidence of this. Every person within Israel is legally treated as equal. If you want to argue that foreigners in Gaza aren’t given the same rights as Israelis you’re fighting a losing war.
Where have I mentioned the colour of peoples skin … not once …
Seems you are playing a race card.
I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur
Sorry, I was using “brown people” as shorthand because in the end it all boils down to that. I assume you don’t think Israel “abuses” the human rights of light skinned Jews.
“I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur”
Show these “international and independent commentators” who agree “Israel’s human rights are lacking”. I don’t believe you because apart from a smattering of socialist nutjobs and Islamist extremists I haven’t seen systematic abuse of anyone in Israel. You’re making it up.
Just because you havent seen systematic abuse and witnessed it first hand – does not mean it has not happened.
Watch the news (ideally from a respected non Israeli, non-Arab, non-US outlet). Read respected independent journalists reports. Read Amnesty breifings. Look at the comments of the nations (150+ of them) who voted to keep Israel permanently as an agenda item on the UNHRC. Look at all the UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel.
Need I go on …
Your support for Israel and its right to defend itself is admirable. You need to look beyond at what is being reported elsewhere.
Its clear that not only is Israel breaching human rights, so is Paelstine and Paelstinian groups and many of the Arab states – but this does not justify Israels human rights record.
@Stu I meant I haven’t seen any genuine authentic reports of systematic human rights abuses committed by Israel. If any exist that’s a game changer but none exist.
Your assertion that Israeli and American press is biased is strange. Israeli press is freer than Italy’s. Maybe you don’t like Israel or America.
As I told you elsewhere, the UNHRC has been told by the head of the UN Ban Ki Moon that they’re obsessed with Israel.
You keep talking about “grave human rights abuses” but not one scrap of evidence is given to support the accusation.
If by “UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel” you mean Israel refuses Palestinian statehood that’s not “grave human rights abuses” but a political fight.
I have no doubt that in principle the press in Israel (and indeed in the USA) are free – freedom of speech is taken to extremes in the US (often to the expense of others human rights). However, that does not mean the press are unbiased. Freedom means you can speak your bias. The US is pro-Israel as are many of its senior journalists, their political stance, their nuance, their publishers money buying that view … Now, I am not saying that neither they nor the Israeli press do not have reasonable comment to make – merely that looking at pro and anti Israeli reporting from nations that are not so tied into the politics and funding of Israel gives a less biased view.
If you read my views and opinions on here you will see that I repeatedly say there is fault on both sides of the crisis in the Middle East. I am anti Israel, I value its LGBT rights. I have enjoyed visiting there. I recognise what Annan said about Israeli abuses and that has regular commentary in..
… the media and UN publications and those of action groups such as Amnesty show repeated human rights abuses by both sides.
I certainly don’t think the Italian press is a credible comparitor given corruption in Italy.
You have given me a quote that condemns the UNHRC by the current UN secretary general. I have replied on another thread with a quote from another statesman Kofi Annan which balances that with concern at Israeli abuses whilst cautioning the UNHRC to have a more global perspective (and that seems reasonable to me).
You suggest that I may be anti-Israel and anti-American – not at all. Perhaps you are so pro-Israel that you blinkered from seeing its wrongs. Or maybe, you are so anti-Arab that it colours your views?
If unbiased press is your criteria you’ll have a very hard time finding it. Denying the legitimacy of the entire American and Israeli media is extreme to say the least.
It does give me an idea of what you believe though.
Attempting to portray me as a racist must mean your arguments are running out.
I keep begging you for some reports about these “human rights abuses” you’re so fond of. They’re strangely lacking…
Nice little twist on my words there. I merely suggested that there was media that was less biased on the situation that Israeli or US media and that this would protray a more balanced picture. A perfectly reasonable and legitimate view. I have given you plenty of evidence (as have others) but you seem to ignore, or claim they are not abuses (when they clearly are) or see it from a different angle (although how you can conceive that the storming of the Gaza bound aid ships is appropriate in any way is astounding).
Although the tone of my discussion and debate here is more anti-Israeli (because of the points I seek to refute which are inaccurate – in my opinion) I have been at pains to point out blame should not just lie at the feet of the Israelis but also the Paelstinians, other Arab states and elsewhere.
Since you claim I have not offered you any evidence of Israeli human rights abuses (which I have!) then I will go and research some more for you ….
@Stu we went through this. Your “evidence” of human rights abuses consisted of a disproven illegal flotilla attempt to illegally enter territorial waters by terrorists, a BBC article which said Israel changed the law to forbid torturing terrorist suspects and another BBC article which said it was a human rights abuse to bring in a child’s father to the polce station when he was held for a crime.
I’m sorry but you’re starting to sound like a fanatic.
@Stu I almost forgot. Not funding Islamic schools to the same degree as normal state schools isn’t a “crime against humanity” in the traditional sense.
Firstly you clearly have missed some of my evidence as you do not refer to it all – perhaps, in fairness you have only looked where I have pasted a website for checking, but there other elements (of my and other peoples evidence) referred to in text and naming or suggesting source.
As for the “flotilla” as you choose to refer to it. Even if one accepts your call that they were agitators (which is subject to dispute amongst numerous agencies) then the action by the IDF was disproprotionate and an invasion and a breach of human rights of those people on those vessels.
As for the BBC reports – some do refer to human rights abuses and some do congratulate Israel on their conduct.
You clearly do not read my words very clearly. Firstly you accuse me of referring to you as a fanatic (which I never did), then you call me a fanatic (yet I am constantly seeking to show balance – Israel has lots of improvements to make and is far from perfect but does do some good. ….
… Others, including Arab states and Palestine and Hamas have a great deal of significant improvements they need to do (some of which Israel already has correctly achieved, some of which Israel are wanting in) – but they can also be congratulated for some acts.
So far from fanatical, I am wanting to achieve balance and proprortion. Its you who brings up the term fanatacism – and one wonders if you are projecting.
For someone who claims to demand academic professionalism at all times, you must be able to understand that muttering about something doesn’t make it “evidence” just because you say it.
Your links to a few articles even demonstrated Israel’s commitment to human rights.
Calling me “paranoid” because I ask for proof of “human rights abuses” isn’t normal. You go on to say I’m “anti-Arab”. You take the smallest of incidents – like Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools in Israel – and call it “crimes against humanity”. I think that counts as fanaticism.
No matter how many times you try and convince me that Israel is a utopia for human rights it just simply isnt true.
I have supplied you with some evidence that demonstrates that in some areas Israel is good in human rights (and in the same evidence that Israel is exceptionally poor).
We are never going to agree on the Gaza aid ship (not the false flotilla a year later – the one where the IDF killed numerous people who were no threat (as admitted by IDF spokesmen at the time). Its one of the most flagrant breaches of human rights ever taken by a state in recent years.
Others have also given you evidence.
Now, I don’t have to educate you and I am perfectly content that I have demonstrated my academic acumen on several occasions – so your snide comment is unnecessary. If you want to see the evidence – open your eyes, take your blinkers off – read the lengthy State department report I shared without cherry picking, read the Amnesty and MSF reports … etc
You were the one who brought up Islamic school funding not me – I mentioned prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism being giving preference and did not express how that was manifested.
You suggest that Israel has made mistakes, that things are hardly a crime against humanity (which it doesnt have to be to be a breach of human rights), or deny the facts of events or the opinion of statesmen with integrity such as Kofi Annan.
You ignore my comments about failure to investigae allegations of torture – at all.
You also ignore my comments condemning Palestine and Arabic states and Hamas.
Israel is not a utopia for human rights. It gets some things very right and some incredibly wrong.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything. The fact of the matter is systematic breaches of human rights by Israel don’t occur.
Your assertion that Israel systematically abuses human rights is a lie and not demonstrable by any means. You’ve offered no proof of your claims, merely rhetoric.
Frankly I think you can’t be arsed to look at the facts you claim to know and every time I read your links to “human rights abuses” they state the opposite. I think you’re having a piss poor attemp at demonstrating what you think to be true. In reality you’re full of rhetoric and BS and not a single piece of evidence has been provided by you to demonstrate your wild claims.
@Stu “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism”
I looked up your citation and that is the manner in which “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism” happens in Israel. Try reading your own sources for once.
“You suggest that Israel has made mistakes”
Yes.
“that things are hardly a crime against humanity”
Not funding Islamic schools and bringing in a child’s parents to visit them in prison aren’t generally considered “crimes against humanity”.
Re: Kofi Annan: his comments were in regard to Jenin, now known to have been fabricated by Palestinians.
The problem is your exaggeration. You say Israel “gets some things incredibly wrong”. It’s my assertion – backed up by all available proof – that Israel is no worse than any other Western democracy.
This is the truth and you haven’t shown otherwise. Stop lying.
@Kane what’s that got to do with anything? If you think Israel’s unique in extrajudicial assassinations you’re deluded. Ever heard of drone attacks in Pakistan? Do you even know how security services operate? Your obsession with Israel is telling.
…..but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police???
Someone who is losing their argument resorts to temper tantrums and name calling like you just have.
You’re blind, you’re naive.
I can’t believe the idiocy of your position.
How can you not see that whilst Israel has done some good things it has also done some very poor things?
What about the recent death linked to Mossad where British, German and Australian passports were forged by Israeli agents? Was that not someone deprived of life? Were they not passport holders who faced intense suspicion because of Israeli action? The numerous diplomatic sanctions imposed by several countries including the UK and Germany demonstrate the strength of evidence that was not published.
stu i already mentioned earlier that troll’s speciality is monosyllabic name calling, he is accusing others of obsession with israel while in reality it is he who is obsessed with Goebbels style propaganda
Re Kofi Annan, if he had just been referring to Jenin then it wouldnt be an appropriate comment to quote, but if you look at the entirity of what Annan was talking about at that time, it is clear that he was not referring to a single event but multiple events.
I note you continue to fail to address the concerns about Israel not investigating any allegation of torture.
The US State Department said “The government implemented policies including marriage, divorce, education, burial, and observance of the Sabbath based on Orthodox Jewish interpretation of religious law, and allocations of state resources favored Orthodox Jewish institutions. … On November 18, police detained Nofrat Frankel, a 25-year-old female medical student … for praying” …”Many religious communities were not recognized.” …”The legal defense NGO Jerusalem Institute of Justice (JIJ) alleged that MOI officials denied services to certain citizens based on their religious beliefs. The JIJ had 70 such cases
“the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct”
And you keep going on about the terrorist flotilla:
the IDF investigation into the May 31 events concluded that the use of live fire was justified, although it criticized organizational and intelligence failures for not being prepared for the level of violence committed by some of the flotilla’s passengers. The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force.
@Stu I now realise you’re incapable of reading. Try it for once.
@Kane the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6963473.ece. “The Islamist group Hamas is masterminding efforts to have senior Israeli leaders arrested for alleged war crimes when they visit European countries including Britain, a top Hamas official involved in the effort has told The Times.”
That loophole will be closed becuase idiots like you hate Israel with no justification, no evidence, no proof and no reason beyond your obsessed hatreI doubt you or Stu will bother to read such biased papers as The Times because it contradicts the BS you believe.
Stu I’m sorry to say but you’re increasingly sounding like an idiot.
@troll
…… the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials…..
REALLY??? AND I THOUGHT HE FORGOT TO PAY CONGESTION CHARGE, SILLY ME.
Please try harder, clearly you like to mix politics with law
SARCASM
Pronunciation:/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
[mass noun]
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt:
she didn’t like the note of sarcasm in his voice
Origin:
mid 16th century: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh’, in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’)
OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION|*** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again)
….
*** propaganda
.OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION *** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again)
….
*** propaganda
@Kane I would suggest you brush up on your English classes. You’re doing good for English as a second language but there’s a lot of room for improvement.
8/10
The State Department does say investigations took place into inhumane conditions in criminal detention – that is separate from the allegations of torture which the State Department clearly state are not investigated
If your justification for (as you clinically put it) extra judicial assassinations, is that other states do it … then your standard for human rights abuses – which assassinations are (whoever carries them out) is even lower than I thought. Would we let a burglar off from burglary merely because another person burgled him- No. So, why should Israel not be held to scrutiny for state sponsored murders just because other nations do?
That in itself clearly demonstrates unequivicably that the Israeli state has breached some human rights and international law.
Even someone as intransigent as you must admit that – and if you don’t then you are parroting propaganda.
Criticizing someone in a snide manner for their lack of ability in English, is offensive and could be construed as racist. If you like being referred to as racist – dont be racist.
i lived there and i can assure you Israel treats Jewish minorities from Africa, the Middle East and Asia with hate humiliation and racism. It abuses people. I saw with my own eyes how IDF deliberately dehumanizes people. Even IDF concriptees are often ashamed.
Since Arabs think Israel has no right to exist and “terrorism” is the pejorative of the day, the Arabs tailor their own definition of terrorism in such a way that everything an Israeli does, including even the breathing, becomes an act of terrorism, while every crime committed by an Arab becomes a heroic act of legitimate resistance. That approach appears disgustingly immoral to us only because we do not share their goals. In fact, theirs — unlike our own — is a perfectly reasonable approach.
From our own perspective, an Arab terrorist on his way to a martyrdom operation remains an innocent civilian up until the moment he ties the bomb belt around his waist. But even then all he has to do to remain immune to any possible attempt to prevent the planned mass murder is to make sure that the explosives are not immediately visible: as long as they remain hidden under his clothes, he is considered an innocent civilian….
Peter Tatchell has done more for gay rights than this guy will ever do. He should stick to making cr4p porn and let gay rights activists carry on with gay rights activism. Anyone who does a tacky remake of la dolce vita should be banished forever, instead of trying to use tatchell as a scapegoat.
What an analogy. I’m happy to listen to Spielberg because his films indicate that he has a coherent moral philosophy that is worth taking on board. Michael Lucas, whose films are crass, exploitative and devoid of artistic merit, doesn’t merit any such comparison.
Just because you do not like his industry does not mean he can not make his political and philosophical views known – nor that he is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately the Oxford Union agreed that he had some valid views.
Sure, he can make them known, the same way the rest of us can. But it’s a dangerous precedent to hold porn stars up as celebrities or social heroes, because they become aspirational. Pornography is not something anyone with any level of self-respect should aspire to, and it’s a horrible demonstration of how far we’re slipping if people think it doesn’t matter.
I certainly would agree that I do not think pornography is a credible aspirational route. That is a personal opinion.
I don’t think in his message that Michael Lucas is saying – hey, look at my thoughts on the Israeli situation and on gay politics – hey, do you agree – fancy being a porn actor?. I just don’t see that. Nor do I see him seeking celebrity status in this or heroic stature – in fact he ridicules Tatchell (mostly unwarranted) for his iconic stature.
I know some porn stars have said they do not see themselves as oppressed and made a personal decision to enter (and stay in) the industry. I suspect, for some, they are trying to convince themselves of this or are ignorant of the oppression they were under. That said, some will genuinely have made the decision freely.
The vast majority will have made the decision freely. That doesn’t change the point about exploitation. If (for example) I needed £50 and someone said they’d give it to me if I performed a sexual act on them, I will have made the decision freely, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that I had been exploited. Even if I thought, as porn is as pervasive and accessible at it is, that it would be a better career choice than working for a living, I will also have been seriously misled and, short of being one of the 1% of individuals who don’t experience guilt (who are called ‘psychopaths’), my self-respect would take an enormous kicking as a result. Let’s not elevate their social status beyond what they actually are, which is prostitutes.
I accept that even those who make free choices to enter the “industry” may economically or otherwise have been influenced into it.
You can argue the same about other more acceptable career choices – however.
There will also be (I perceive a minority) who choose a career in porn without economics being the prime motive. That does not make them psychopaths, nor does it make their choice honourable in my personal view but it can mean that they are not oppressed. Its rhetoric to say that all in the porn industry are oppressed – it may be the vast majority but not all.
You used the word exploitative – I merely changed it for an alternative understanding of the word
I don’t know how to explain to you – that I agree with lots of your view but that its not factually correct in every circumstance and that barring someone from voicing their articulate (if not entirely factual) political views on the basis of their business (which is the logical extension of your view that Lucas lacks integrity) is failing to allow free speech.
I suppose there is the distinction. I’m not saying we should bar anyone’s free speech, but there’s a big difference between barring and not printing. He can say whatever he likes, I’m not stopping him. I just don’t think any more notice should be taken of his opinion than any common garden crack whore.
Maybe I pushed your argument further to its natural conclusion than you would be comfortable – if so, I apologise.
The Lucas argument is not just printed in PN, its also in the Jerusalem Post, Gay City News and other outlets – so in that respect I think PN would be remiss if not balancing Tatchells views with views that are available elsewhere.
When it comes to human rights, it is a fact that BOTH Israel and Muslim states or organizations are BOTH to be condemned for their well-proven records. Speaking of inconsistencies and biases…. you people…!
This is one of the most Victorian comments I ever read on this site. Don’t most activists have a day job? And why would producing gay porn disqualify you from having opinions on gay issues? Rather the opposite, I should think. This is really unpleasantly moralistic and a direction I think nobody wants to go in.
Personally speaking, a direction I don’t want to go in is one where we giving further legitimacy to people whose only achievement is to film people having sex for money.
-
Pornography, as much as we now view it as harmless fun, is actually socially corrosive and encourages us to objectify other human beings and view sex as nothing more spiritual than going to the toilet. Not to mention normalising sexual practices that are a sign of pathological sickness. I don’t want their ‘stars’ speaking on my behalf. What next, Linda Lovelace taking on Michael Gove over the subject of religion in free schools. Come on!
Lol, just the first example that came to mind. Though, a quick scan of Wikipedia reveals she became part of the anti-pornography movement later in life. Telling.
You could argue that fast food advertising on childrens television is exploitative too.
That said, McDonalds have interesting views on the environment and other important issues.
Therefore, Michael Lucas’s industry may exploit some people – it doesnt mean he can’t have a valid, real, articulate and intelligent position on human rights and international relations.
It’s an article attacking the character of one of Britain’s most prominent human rights activists, written by a man with no character. A good contrast it is not.
Clearly the Oxford Union thought he was an appropriate speaker for their debates.
Why should someones career or business choice make their views on international relations, LGBT issues, politics or philosophy automatically irrelevant or redundant?
I’m not saying his view is automatically redundant. I am not saying that Oxford University shouldn’t invite a gay porn director to talk about the crisis in the middle east. I do suspect that there are an awful lot more people qualified to talk about it than him though. Without a name as a porn director, his article wouldn’t be printed here. Is that the precedent we’re setting now? That the celebrity of porn workers gives their voices greater power than, say, teachers or philosophers, or doctors or psychologists. All of whom would have an opinion believe me, but would never get this level of promotion. Is that what people have to do to gain power–give up their moral integrity?
Speaking for myself, I just worry that pornography is becoming so mainstream that we begin to undervalue sex. Maybe that’s my Catholic upbringing talking, but there it is! I also think we should be a little wary of who we choose to represent us as spokespeople. I’ll take Tatchell over Lucas any day. Though, I agree, he is perfectly entitled to his view, which may indeed be correct. It isn’t (in my view) but in theory at least.
There may well be other more qualified people to talk about the Middle East Crisis. I suspect Lucas given his ancestry and education give him more than a passing acquaintance with the issues of the Middle East crisis.
He has a first class law degree from a university in Moscow, has lectured at Yale and Stanford and debated at these universities and Oxford Union. He is clearly an intelligent man and his business is only one aspect of his life and attitudes.
He is a regular writer in the US LGBT media – where I suspect PN found this article originally.
He is an ardent campaigner against drugs and promoting safe sex. He also campaigns for LGBT rights.
Now, I am not a huge fan of porn and I recognise the oppression that the industry can cause.
If however, there was ever a porn manufacturer with integrity – this is the man.
Yes Israel has good LGBT rights. That has very little baring on our judgement of the Palestine situation.
“He goes to Moscow and protests the government for forbidding Gay Pride. And then he doesn’t go to Israel, which just held yet another of the world’s most vibrant and festive Gay Pride celebrations, but protests if people want to hold a meeting there. Logic and consistency aren’t his strong suit.”
I see no contradiction here. One’s a boycott because of a country’s foreign policy, one’s an internal protest because of it’s domestic policy. Different situations, different tactics.
Exactly, just because Israel is considerably further advanced than its neighbours when it comes to LGBT rights doesn’t mean it’s above criticism when it comes to minority-ethnicity rights.
Tell that to people on the wrong side of the wall.
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(Please don’t think I have a black-and-white view of the situation in Israel, I’m fully aware of the fact that the state of Israel is in many ways more advanced than many of its neighbours.)
@TrollfromDamascus
Most independent news outlets provide numerous examples of Israeli breaches of international law on human rights and UN conventions. Sure, there are breaches from Palestinians, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain and many others. That does not mean Israel’s actions are justified.
I will provide some more evidence in the morning but off to bed now … there is immense evidence of flagrant breaches (not mistakes!) of human rights by Israel
No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.
Most people who do this are socialists who think Israel is a colonial project or Islamists who want a pan-Islamic continent.
“No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.”
Pure utter paranoia.
Over 150 nations condemned Israeli human rights
Many many respected (and some very right wing) journalists have raised concerns about and exposed Israeli human rights failures and breaches of international law.
Israel has breached multiple UN Security Council resolutions.
Yes there is a campaign against Israel and Israel has a right to defend itself but not at the expense of human rights. That results in a state becoming immune to the humanity of others.
“All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.”
to be demonstrably paranoid.
I and others have given you plenty of evidence on this and another thread yet you condemn it on the basis of meaningless quotes from one stateman and the Israeli constitution, when we all know human rights abuses would usually flout a constitution and there are plenty of comments of elder statesmen that say the entire opposite of the current secretary general.
I have given you some examples of evidence – whether them accept them or investigate them is entirely up to you.
I’m not going to give you repeated streams of news articles, amnesty articles, UN declarations, Foreign and Prime Ministerial criticism, UNICEF concerns, MSF concerns, etc etc but I could.
What’s demonstrable is the lack of proof for which you assert.
You linked to two BBC articles, one of which said Israel changed the law to stop torture of terrorists in custody, and one which said the “human rights abuses” amounted to bringing in a teenager’s parents while he was in custody.
Now you’re trying to say I’m a paranoid fanatic. Have you looked in the mirror lately?
Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered, fine if thats what you want to do – but there are clear examples of violations of human rights by Israelis within those articles. I have never said everything the Israelis do is bad. There will be some good practice – and perhaps its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced (ie articles that criticise and compliment the Israelis at the same time).
You again misrepresent what I say – at no point have I called you a fanatic. Paranoid – yeah but your statement did genuinely cause me to have that concern.
I have reluctantly agreed to give you yet more evidence despite the fact you ignore or reject any evidence offered to you by anyone.
“Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered”? I read your articles and they were all either retracted or demonstrate Israel’s commitment to human rights.
“its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced”
The thing is Stu, any reputable media will try to get the story right. The truth is there are no reports of systematic Israeli hujman rights abuses – because it doesn’t happen.
I think your threshold for “human rights abuses” is set incredibly low. Your pencil tip broke? “ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE!!!!”
Oh I must have missed that utopia where all media aim to get things totally accurate and do not twist things to suit their agenda. What a naive world you occupy where journalists are honest and have integrity and Israel is a bastion for human rights.
You keep demanding evidence of me – now I shall demand you to prove the repudiation of the all of the stories I have given you, all the BBC news reports, all the comments in the State Department document, everything … prove it.
The thing is you dont see my sense of balance Israel isnt completely wrong – but it isnt completely right. Its accepting that where Israel falls down. Your propaganda will eventually fail.
My threshold of evidence is at the highest level – beyond reasonable doubt and I am also willing to be proved wrong, but again that must be beyond reasonable doubt. I have no doubt that Israel are good at LGBT rights, and general human rights for Jews. Their entire picture of human rights to non Jews
is appalling and discredited by multiple NGOs, other nations, journalistic outlets … and it is not my job to supply that information to you. I have supplied some.
I support Israel in many things but its laughable to credibly try and suggest that their record on human rights is whiter than white.
The use of torture may indeed be banned by order of the judiciary but Israel does not investigate alelegations of torture – that seems all too convenient to me.
If I was anti Israel and and Jew (which I am not) then I would not support Israel for many of the good things they do.
The fact remains you see Israel as a (false) utopia and anyone who dares raise any criticism is lying, fabricating, obsessed or wrong.
Now, I ask you – which one of us looks obsessed there …. I would suggest you?
In your opinion it doesnt stack up – you’re welcome to your fantasy world where that is the case – plenty including respected diplomats, politicians, journalists and some rabbis are very critical of Israeli human rights …
“We are deeply saddened by the controversy that has grown up around the issuing of the report. We affirm your findings and believe you set up an
impeccable standard thatprovides strong evidence thatIsrael engaged in war crimes during the assaulton Gaza thatreveal a pattern ofcontinuous
and systematic assault against Palestinian people and land that has very little to do with Israel’s claim of security. Your report made clear the
intentional targeting of civilian infrastructures such as hospitals, schools, agricultural properties, water and sewage treatment centers and
civilians themselves with deadly weapons that are illegal when used in civilian centers.
This is the ugly truth that is so hard for many Jewish people to face. Anyone who spends a day in Palestinian territories sees this truth immediately.”
What a ridiculous collection of clichés from someone hardly free from the accusation that he has an axe to grind.
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Though there’s a delicious irony in someone who makes his living by promoting outsize penises accusing the British for loving monuments!
You could argue it the other way, that because of his ancestry that he has a pertinent interest in the issues.
I don’t see either Michael Lucas as being correct in all of his arguments against Peter Tatchell’s opinion – but he does have some reasonable points to make such as the democratic decision making of the IGYLO, the membership of the IGYLO and the homophobia of the de Klerk and Botha regimes in South Africa.
Michael Lucas is on record as saying that muslims should be barred from serving in the US Army, and on record as saying that the Arab world has contributed nothing to society.
Is such a racist the ONLY person PN could find to write a pro-Israeli response to Peter Tatchell’s article?
“Since Israel was founded by the Zionist movement as a Jewish state, and Judaism as a religion is often conflated Judaism as a nationality, Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government” – Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, American foreign policy analyst, editor and author who specializes in U.S./Middle East policy.
—-
While I admire your beautifully scripted “ignoramus” comment as an indicator of your level of education, I suggest you diversify your reading material a little before embarrassing yourself in public with such low-brow comments.
It may have secularised a little since then – including law on freedom of religion and equality and LGBT issues and many other things.
However, there is still an element of theocracy in how it still legally permits prejudice in favour of Jews and particularly Orthodox Jews over others.
“Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government”
Your own quote demonstrates Israel isn’t a theocracy. Britain’s “state religion” is CoE and in many ways our society and laws are based on Christianity.
Terry, I didn’t say I agreed with the remarks of Lucas. I wanted to know what the Arab world has given us. Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee.
It is arguable that when a state permits and encourages prejudice on the grounds not only of one faith (Judaism) but also on the grounds of particular Orthodox elements of Judaism and that this permeates the decision making that this suggests the state is a theocracy.
Even the Israeli significant ally the USA in State Department published information on Israel acknowledges that there is legally endorsed prejudice against religions which are not Judaism and particularly Orthodox Judaism.
So a breach of human rights has to be a crime against humanity?
Now, if that is the Israeli states view on what constitutes human rights – then no wonder they continuallly flagrantly abuse them – they clearly don’t know what they are if they share your view …
So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed?
You seem prepared to accept religious inequalities that the State department report by your comments that it is hardly a crime against humanity – I guess that depends on whether you are supported by the inequality or restricted by it.
For the record, despite your claims that I have not given you evidence (which is blatantly untrue) here is the report from the US State Department:
The report is balanced and arguably pro-Israeli but even the Israelis ally, the US recognise that there are significant breaches of human rights by Israelis and the IDF – it does recognise achievements by Israel which are fair and proportionate too. It also recognises failures by Hamas and others on Palestinian/Arab side of the conflict.
@Stu that’s the most ridiculous thing you’ve done yet. You take my link to the US State Dept’s report and claim it as your own source of evidence. As I said to you before, the report shows incidents of racism and discrimination – as it does for every country in the world, including Britain.
“So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed?”
I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You’re lying now. First you call me an “anti-Arab” racist and now you’re saying complete BS. Just stop it. It only shows that those who insist on Israeli “human rights abuses” are liars and fraudsters. All your bluff and bluster and not a single piece of evidence. Just give it up Stu.
I didnt put words in your mouth, I merely interpreted what you said – if thats a misinterpretation I apologise, nonetheless it is a logical progression of what you said.
Failing to investigate any allegation of torture is not a trifling amount of racism common to the UK or other nations.
There are dozens of issues including detention without charge of hundreds of people simultaneously.
Again there are many areas of praise for Israel, but its false and a lie to suggest Israel is a beacon for human rights in general.
I’m not going to get into a schoolground tit for tat of who presented which evidence first – and because you gave the hyperlink first it was yours – or because I mentioned it before that it was mine. How juvenile. The fact is the evidence proves (who ever presents it) that Israel has good and bad practice in human rights.
It seems you have double standards. I misinterpret you (it appears) and I am putting words in your mouth.
You quote me as saying something I havent and thats acceptable.
You refer to “brown skins”, I pick you up on the inappropriateness of this and you castigate me for calling you racist (yet I never have used that label).
If you are going to try and accuse me of things, at least try and make it factual. Although it seems you don’t like facts since you believe the fairy tale that Israel can do no bad.
@Stu you’ve decided to ignore facts and instigate a personal attack. What more can you expect from someone who refuses to fact-check but insist that what they know is “the truth”?
With the greatest of respect – you have been personally attacking me throughout this thread and offensive – so trying to claim the high ground is laughable
@Stu I only returned fire and called you nasty words when you began calling me names. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
You might not be actively lying but at the very least your leftwing politics are clouding your judgement. Your refusal to even read Wikipdia, The Times and Reuters because they don’t “fit” your belief system is worrying. It’s worrying because there’s people like you out there running around screaming “human rights abuse!” in regard to Israel and you might actually rub off on some people.
“Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee.”
You’re comment was barbed, do not insult my intelligence. You are racist. You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us”.
I shall leave it to other readers to decide who was offensive first … and which were justified. There are time stamps on the postings, and it will be clear that you have been repeatedly offensive to me and others throughout this debate and tirade of yours. You are the only one to resort to expletives. You accuse me of saying things I have not – you fabricate things I have said – you lie.
There you go again – you have no idea of my politics. The party I support is not in opposition.
As for refusing to read the Times or Reuters … I have read The Times every day in the last seven bar one. The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there – if you make that up, how can I trust anything you say given your extreme Zionist bias?
When I was viewed by occupational health psychologist (routinely and compulsory for everyone in my field – happens annually due to the emotional trauma I have to encounter) there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement – so for you to diagnose grandiose views etc from a discussion thread is remarkable!
@Terry “You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us” You make me sick.
Slander. What more can you expect. All I did was ask what has the Arab world given us. You and seemingly no one else has given any examples. Numbers were a Hindu invention. How is that racist? Slanderous fool.
@Stu “The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there”
The first mention of the Times was at 28 Jun 2011, 1:01am
“extreme Zionist bias”
WTF asking for proof of human rights abuses makes me an “extreme Zionist”? What planet are you living on?
“the extreme emotional trauma I have to encounter annually” – I think you’ve experienced too much trauma and need a holiday.
“there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement” going by your other comments I think that’s code for there were concerns about your mental health.
I never mentioned The Times. You fabricate yet again.
So again you resort to personal abuse (based without fact, evidence or logic) . This time to question my mental health. Always the sign of a some who is desperate in a debate to lower themselves to such tactics. Also, when you have never met the person – its not an opinion you could form one way or the other. A good indicator as to how you form your opinions and the strength of evidence you use to form your opinions.
Thanks for caring, but my mental health is fine thank you.
Of course israel isn’t perfect. It does have its faults.
But it is a democracy, and it does uphold free speech and freedom of conscience for its citizens.
In Gaza, there is a plan to exterminate LGBT people in a way that wasn’t that dissimilar to the annihilation of the Jews in Germany only sixty years ago. Many, as we well know, escaped and went to Israel.
“in those illegally occupied places a toxically racist Apartheid regime is in force. ”
You’re correct. Hamas – the democratically elected government of Gaza – is a toxically racist Apartheid regime, denying women, gays, Jews and everyone else equal treatment under the law.
Try to keep up with current affairs if you wish to engage in debate.
Facts are hard to come by with anti-Israel extremists who prefer rhetoric and lies over truth.
Thank God… Somebody who knows what they’re taking about! The Hamas regime is particularly cruel. I’d sooner be in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East.
You could say Israeli foreign policy doesn’t meet your approval but even in its engagements in Gaza it follows the best practice any army could ever hope to do, as Col. Richard Kemp states:
Israeli foreign policy certainly isnt fair and right (in my view). Its general human rights policy is also very concerning.
Israel remains the only nation to be a constant permanent agenda item for every meeting of the UN Human Rights Council – this speaks volumes to me. A vast majority of nations backed this.
What’s your point? A few mistakes isn’t “genocide”. NATO accidently killed a few families last week. Britain, the US etc aren’t committing “ethnic cleansing”.
Yo nutters are obsessed with Israel and twist everything to fit your perverted ideology.
“Its general human rights policy is also very concerning.”
To consider genocide being necessary before human rights abuses are occurring is a pretty low threshold of what is acceptable in any event.
If you read what I have said you will see I condemn both Israel and the Arab states and Palestinians. Israel are appalling on human rights but they are not alone.
I prefer to consider authoritative reports from the UN, Amnesty and other respected bodies and the international media rather than the suspect WIkipedia.
The problem is you say “the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling” when this clearly isn’t the case.
You have no evidence for “human rights abuses”. If you mean racism, taht’s not the same as Apartheid and every country has racism problems.
Wikipedia is not a source. It is generally neutral and requires you to do some research instead of relying on some blogger feeding you “facts”.
Some sources from the Wikipedia page I linked to you:
Princeton University Press
International Human Rights in Context, Oxford University Press
Yale University
Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law
Yearbook of the International Law Commission
Israel Yearbook on Human Rights
United Nations General Assembly
The International Court of Justice
Transparency International
U.S. Department of State
Reporters Sans Frontieres
US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor
International Herald Tribune
Yet you’re under the impression Wikipedia is “suspect”.
You’re not authoring a thesis for peer review and citing Wikipedia as a source. Wikipedia is not a source. It takes its information from other sources.
I easily link to the sources cited in Wikipedia but it’s easier to link to one page with every source collected together.
You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs.
“After surveying the various concerns that have been raised about the reliability of Wikipedia, this paper argues that the epistemic consequences of people using Wikipedia as a source of information are likely to be quite good. According to several empirical studies, the reliability of Wikipedia compares favorably to the reliability of traditional encyclopedias. Furthermore, the reliability of Wikipedia compares even more favorably to the reliability of those information sources that people would be likely to use if Wikipedia did not exist (viz., websites that are as freely and easily accessible as Wikipedia).”
Wikipedia does its utmost to be neutral and accurate.
You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs.
Peter Tatchell has a lifetime of defending human rights, not just gay rights.
Michael Lucas has a ‘lifetime’ of exploitation. This just might be good publicity for Mr Lucas?
While Mr Lucas needs to be corrected he doesn’t need to be given much attention.
Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest ‘apartheid systems’, that exist today.[1]
Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens.[2]
Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are:
* Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion).
* Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry).
* Kurds. Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria.
* Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania.
* Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves).
* Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces.
No, Israel runs an occupation in the eponymous occupied territories. That may not be a nice thing, but it’s very different from an “apartheid” regime. Don’t use wrong words just because they conveniently have negative implications. Here, the anti Israel crowd begins to resemble the American Republican right — Israeli Apartheid is just about as meaningless to describe the situation in the territories as Obamacare is to characterize US health care legislation. Les extremes se touchent!
Well done Daniel. It’s easy for people to trump up charges of “Apartheid” to make a political point. They go way overboard though and try to delegitimize Israel as a country and say BS like “Israel isn’t a democracy”. They’re political extremists.
Part 2
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* Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example.
* Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic.
* Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there’s great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups. Turkey’s policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as “foreigners” at the “moderate” Islamic supremacy of Turkey.
* All non-Msulims in ‘Islamic Apartheid state’ of S. Arabia.
* Asians [slaves!] in the Gulf Arab states.
* Al-Akhdam in Yemen.
* Gypsies in Jordan.
—
Islamic-Arab “Palestine” apartheid:
* Ahmadiyya Muslims are harshly persecuted in (Pakistan and in) the “Palestinian” Apartheid
Israel left Gaza years ago. The terrorist organisation Hamas won free democratic elections and rule Gaza with an iron Islamic fist.
There is no apartheid in Gaza except the Apartheid run by Hamas.
You’re lying.
If the situation in terms of access to Gaza, trade and ability to act as an independent state imposed by Israel on Gaza, is what you call free. Then your understanding of free is somewhat different to that of convention.
Maybe if they stopped indiscriminately launching rockets into civilian towns every day they wouldn’t be under economic and travel sanctions… Just a thought. Worked for Gandhi.
Sanctions do not normally involve storming humantarian aid shipments, using phosphorus on the population of Gaza, attacking a UN school (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7814054.stm) etc etc
Israel have every justification to impose snactions and reasonable security controls. What Israel are doing is much beyond that and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
@Stu do you actually read the articles you link to? From your BBC “evidence”
“Update: In February 2009, the United Nations said that a clerical error had led it to report that Israeli mortars had struck a UN-run school in Jabaliya, Gaza, on 6 January killing about 40 people. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator in Jerusalem, said that the Israeli Defense Force mortars fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself. He said that the UN “would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school”. ”
Your invective about “storming humanitarian aid ships” ignores the terrorists on board wielding weapons. Very peaceful of them eh? You’re the only one bing disingenuous.
@TrollfromDamascus
Most merchant shipping particularly those that may transit certain areas of the Middle East and East Africa do carry firearms on board. In the heat of an attack by armed personnel and the panic of that, I would not be surprised if the firearms were drawn, were any fired – Israel never commented. Did the IDF identify themselves – Israel refused to comment. Were they in territorial waters, Israel were vague and Turkey argued they were in international waters.
As for the school – was the health centre also a clerical error, were the other schools mentioned also clerical errors?
What about the quote “Many claims cannot be verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a Supreme Court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory.” ?
Be that as it may it doesn’t demonstrate “crimes against humanity”. As with Libya when you attack terrorists they use human shields and launch rockets from schools and neighbourhoods. Civilians get caught up in war but if Hamas stopped trying to wipe out Israel at every turn Israel wouldn’t have grounds to attack them and nobody would die.
Peaceful resistance is the only legitimate form of protest if statehood is what Gaza wants.
You can’t blame Israel for defending itself and label me a racist for saying that.
So multiple deaths on a vessel of humanitarian aid is not a significant concern or a breach of international law. Then your standard of morality must be very low!
So you are going to ignore the other schools, the health centre, the rights of a humanitarian ship to bear arms in international waters when targetted by people who did not identify themselve, and then the killing of people on board, and the failure to investigate allegations of torture (surely there is something to hide with over 400 such allegations)?
Israel have done a lot of good – LGBT rights, a brilliant health system, a sophisticated democracy – but not everyone is treated fairly and equally and there is a lack of respect for international law
I certainly wouldnt castigate you or deem you racist for saying Israel should be able to protect itself (but the same right should be afforded to humanitarian aid shipments suddenly stunned by unknown forces in international waters?).
I would question some (not all) of the methods of the IDR in “defending” Israel.
I would argue that both Israel and Arabs could work more constructively to find solutions to the conflict.
You can call me a liar but just in the US State department document alone there are dozens of breaches of international law either evidenced or suspected (and not investigated by Israel). Some serious, some less so … thats fact and calling me a liar doesnt change it.
It also doesnt change my opinion that Israel have done some great things on human rights, and other areas but they do commit some acts with are flagrant breaches of human righrs.
@Stu you can’t keep saying “there’s evidence for and against”. The fact is the flotilla was illegal, the blockade legal. Saying that Reuters, The Times, legal scholars and everyone who’s ever looked at it are all liars is madness. Using Turkey – that known bastion of freedom – as evidence is pure nonsense. I’m sorry but you’ve shown how out of touch with reality you are.
They said the intention of entering Israeli waters was illegal
They didnt say the boarding of the vessel was in Israeli waters
They didnt say the shooting of the crew was appropriate
You are pushing the boundaries to say that a legal blockade means justification for boarding a vessel in international waters and killing a number of people
You ignore many of my other comments, have racist undertones (brown skin, barbed comments, assuming someones second language is English and making snide comments….)
You falsify things I have said ….
Its clearly obvious for all to see, who is wrong here … and its clearly not me
@Stu “You ignore many of my other comments”
If I do I apologise the system here is quite disordered and gets bloated quickly, making it easy to lose track of what’s going on.
However, you claim I “have racist undertones” because of this post where I say “Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course” and is decidely anti-racist; for if Israel was systematically dehumanizing brown people because of their skin that would be awful. However, racism is not apartheid and racism is not “human rights abuses”.
Well, with respect the Turkel Commission was far from independent. It was commissioned by the Israeli government with a former Israeli supreme court justice, a Major from the IDF, a former Israeli foreign office official and two Israeli professors of law. The supposedly independent observers were a former Canadian military judge and former Northern Ireland first minister David Trimble (both widely acknowledged as friends of Israel and who were both told before the hearings that they may be prevented from having access to some documents and whilst able to question all witnesses some answers may not be given in the observers presence – hardly transparency!).
The commission had limited investigative and subpoena powers (therefore may not have heard all evidence) and did not meet recognised UN or international standards for a commission. The commissions chair threatened to resign because of the structure of the commission was too narrowly defined. The Israeli High Court of…
… of Justice itself severely criticized the make up and remit of the commission and its ability to respect natural justice.
Relevant NGOs who were interested in the event were prevented from giving evidence. The Turkel commission has limited if any credibility as acknowledged by some involved.
I would therefore suggest Israel clearly breached human rights of those on board.
@Troll
I do not recognise the comments you attribute to me as mine.
As far as racism not being a breach of human rights … well depending on whether you are on the receiving end or the delivery end would depends on your perspective, I guess … regardless – racism is not right!
* Descendents of slaves of the Bedouins are still stigmatized by racist “Palestinians”.
* Christians are discriminated, persercuted against [especially since Y. Arafat's Islamization of Bethlehem], by Palestine authority and Hamas regime.
—
From anti-Jewish Apartheid:
- The Arab racist apartheid against the Jews attempted genocide ever since the 1920s, (Like Mufti of “Palestine” at his incited massacres, and Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood who called simply ‘to kill Jews’).
- Chased out a Million Jews in the late 1940.
- Has boycotted and demonized [every logical defensive action is branded "racist"] the Jewish democratic-free-equal-to-all state only because it’s the “other”. It is neither Muslim nor purely Arab.
- The Arab racist world continues to play with Arab-Palestinians (grandchildren of Arab immigrants[3]) like ping-pong against Israel.<A HREF="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID
AND THE BEACON OF APARTHEID HAS THE AUDACITY TO CHARGE MULTI-RACIAL ISRAEL’S BEAUTIFUL DEMOCRACY [THAT OFTEN GIVES PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FOR ITS ARABS OVER JEWS[5]|[6]|[7]|[8]|[9]|[10]] WITH THIS TERMINOLOGY?
THE ARAB DECEPTIVE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THAT ACTS AS IF ARAB-ISLAMIC GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN IS NOT OBVIOUS TO DETERMINE ISRAEL’S EXTRA SECURITY MEASURES [INCLUDING AN ANTI-TERROR / ANTI-MASSACRES WALL].
As if we don’t know the ‘Arab oil lobby’s power’ over the UN and other major international organizations and some African officials to go along with the Arab propaganda.
Despite some non-Arabs who jump on this wagon out of: ignorance, of confusion complex, or of sheer bigotry, never forget, that this entire “apartheid, racism” label was invented by Arab racists ganging up in the UN since 1975.
Even promoter of the apartheid-slur J. Carter admitted on CNN: “I recognize that Israel is a wonderful democracy with freedom of speech and equality of treatment under the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis.”[11]
Radnom fact: Israel is a secular system, its laws are based on the Ottoman and British-Mandate rulings that proceeded the reestablishing of the State in its historic place.
Isn’t it true that the anti-Jewish “apartheid” slur (Treat the ‘A’ word like the ‘N’ word, jpost)[16] campaign is: A) to demonize Jews and B) to hide the real apartheid practice by the Arab-Islamic world?[17]
—
A tiny ironic question, What would the bigoted: Arab-Islamic-Palestine-Apartheid regime do with the dreadful “queers-for-palestine”?
You’re entire argument is based on the “devil you know” complex, and is flawed. Just becuase the Arab world has less of a human rights record than Israel, this is not exonerate Israel, is simply shows up how desperate you are to defend an aggressive land-grabbing state. To use dictatorships in the Arab world as your benchmark to exonerate Israel of its internationally recognised crimes is pathetic.
Israel is in violation of most of the 65 UN resolutions against it.
Ironic so many here are blindly defending the rights of Israel to persecute other nations, and invade their land, given the circumstances that led to the creation of the state in the first place – pressed becomes the oppressors – a tragic and sad reality.
At least have the guts to look at the situation from a historical and unbiased reality, not this desperate bull.
“Anybody who compares the situation of Arab citizens of Israel to SA apartheid – or, even more stupidly, the situation in the occupied territories to the systematic exploitation of the majority by a small white elite – is simply whitewashing the horrors of apartheid.”
I think you mean “the abused citizens of Palestine” – and I think it’s you who is holding the pail of whitewash.
They have their own government, the known terrorist regime of Hamas. Palestinians voted in democratic election to elect the terrorists Hamas whose stated goal is to murder every Jew on Earth.
Hamas runs Gaza. How is Israel to blame for what Hamas does to its own people?
Knowing what happens in Gaza is difficult as Israel will neither allow foreign journalist in but also censors international media broadcasts from Israel
lifelong porn star has a go at lifelong gay rights activist over gay rights. You can’t make this shlt up. Or can you? Does anyone really believe that Lucas took some time out to write this. Mind you it must have taken all of 2 minutes. I’m no fan of palestine. But I’m not fan of Israel either. Lucas should stop trying to be a politician. He’s made his bed, and he should lay in it with no clothes on getting fuked senseless. I might not agree with everything he says, but I’d rather listen to tatchell any day when it comes to gay or human rights issues.
I also don’t agree with everything Peter Tatchell says – although probably the majority of it – although I think Palestine has as many wrongs on its side as Israel do. I do think Lucas has some good points he makes and as others have commented he has previously spoken at the Oxford Union and Ivy League debating chambers. He is not a gay porn bimbo by any shred of the imagination.
He believes that muslims should be barred from serving in the US military; he ignores modern mathematics when he claims that Arab society has never offered anything to society; and when he claims that Palestinians are terrorists first and people second he is straying into very dangerous racist territory.
The prostitution game may be more financially rewarding in the US; but surely if he means what he says about Israel he would want to live in Israel?
And even worse Pink News do not mention Michael Lucas’ history of vicious racism when they allowed him to write this column,
I’ll say it again – Pink News must really have been scraping the bottom of the barrel if the ONLY person they could find to write an article in defence of Israel was a racist Russian prostitute.
His opinion of Muslims in the US military is wrong. Islam isnt a race, so I wouldnt see it as a discrimination based on ethnicity or race but certainly an act of religious discrimination which is wrong.
I think the argument about modern mathematics is a red herring here – I am sure we have all exaggerated in argument and debate using phrases such as “The Tories have nothing to offer”, when in fact they do have some credible points – and that was the context of that particular argument (in my view).
I do think his terrorism argument is one that can be suggested to either side – so in this particular issue I would tread cautiously on the use of the word terrorism except perhaps suicide bomb attacks on buses in Haifa or Tel Aviv where its obvious. Equally you could argue some Israeli action is terrorism for and on behalf of the state.
As for is he feels this way about Israel he would want to live there. I love and support New Zealand, but I dont live there.
@SteveC
People can do things we think are wrong (or even be sure of being wrong sometimes) but still hold right opinions on other issues.
I think Tony Blair was wrong to invade Iraq and that it was arguably a crime against international law. I think he did a great many other good things such as his involvement in the Northern Ireland peace process and introducing legislation equalising the age of consent.
So Lucas may have religious prejudices, he may have other wrong opinions and some may find his career unpalatable – but none of these things mean he is incapable of reasoned arguments on some of these or other issues.
Comparing Israelis to Naz*s tops off your previous statement.
Many countries have walled borders – the US with Mexico for example.
Egypt has opened its border with Gaza.
Your comparisons are redundant.
you really think people on this forum r such idiots, comparing mexico with palestine tops off ur intelectual capabilities, i would even go futher in saying that jews in hitlers pre 1939 germany had much better than todays palestinians in warsaw style ghettos, after all hitlers germany was equally democratic country even by today standarts
The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good).
I am arguing that some of its record is not good and that this can not be ignored and the good should not be considered in isolation from the bad.
It seems unless you toe the line and agree 100% cast iron without reservation with Trollfromdamascus that he will be abusive and undermine you with arguments that you havent made.
Agreed, Stu. He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him, and prefers a school yard insult as a response. Its his way or no way, it seems. Lucky for us he has picked a name like “Troll” to alert us to his emotive insults in lieu of a rational argument. I’m guessing he has a lot of issues to resolve, ones that won’t be resolved with his blind bias on a gay site.
@Terry, telling someone to “Fcuk off” and saying they have “an unbalanced mind” is what initiates name-calling in my defence.
“He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him”
BS. All evidence you presented I countered with evidence – as is the case here. Note how you disregard the links to Goldstone refuting his own report and instead say I “blindly defend one point of view without any consideration for the facts”.
@Stu “The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good).”
That’s not my argument. Look here for my argument and stop ganging up with that horrible cretin Terry.
If your argument is so sophisticated that you have to condemn me for saying things I havent, fail to consider significant evidence I give (such as the lack of credibility of the Commission and the false information you presented about Israeli ambulance) and then become offensive – to be frank you don’t debate, you dont have an open mind and frankly how can I believe you with that sort of evidence
I agree that Israel is generally not a good country.
It is a beacon for LGBT people but its stance and approach to freedoms and human rights in general is astoundingly bad.
Equally, Palestine and many of the surrounding Arab states have as bad (and sometimes worse) records on general human rights and certainly worse on LGBT issues specifically.
We should not measure the humanity of a nation or people by how they treat LGBT people alone – although that should form part of the assessment.
As for Israel being a democracy – in a sense it is, but in how it behaves – it is far from democratic.
I know you hate Wikipedia because it shows facts you don’t agree with but truth is truth.
Israel is not “astoundingly bad” in its approach to human rights. Equality for all regardless of race, sex or religion is at the core of Israel’s constitution:
“The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty.
There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person as such.
All persons are entitled to protection of their life, body and dignity.”
Saying otherwise in the face of reality shows how out of touch and obsessed you are to demonstrate Israel as a demonic entity. I amgine you’re a hit in the mosques.
Actions speak louder than words.
For example why other religions are not allowed to teach their religion to jews in Israel? This would not happen if it was a democracy…
Try reading the USA States departments review of freedom of religion in Israel, that endorses Davids views – I agree it is ridiculous, but it is the way Israel are operating and its an abuse of human rights.
You can pick entries from the report which support Israel, that is true.
However there is much in the report that does not paint Israel in a good light and demonstrates the significant improvements that Israel need to make.
Such quotes include “There were reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious belief or practice. Relations among religious groups were often strained. “, “During the year NGOs filed numerous complaints alleging that security forces tortured or abused Palestinians”, “he NGO Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) reported on the lack of investigations of torture allegations, noting that, since 2001, not one investigation had resulted from more than 600 complaints of torture” and “The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; while the government generally respected these rights, in practice there were some restrictions”. These are just some examples.
@Stu the report on Britain is just as bad. Isolated instances of prejudice and generalised racism don’t make Israel or Britain a “human rights abusing nation”. Get a grip and put things in perspective.
@Stu you mean the lack of investigation into white phosporous? Fine. But you extrapolate and exaggerate that into “human rights abuses” contrary to fact. From your own source of US State Dept:
The lack of investigation of any of hundreds of allegations of torture is hardly the “odd lack of investigation”
You keep coming back at me with – the report says this good thing and that good thing – and it does. Thats part of my point, I want Israel to do good things. Part of doing that is recognising where it isnt doing as good as it could or should be. Failling to investigate 400-600 (depending on which report you read) allegations of torture means someone high up in Israeli circles has decided those investigations will not occur. Thats failing to ensure transparency, legal redress and protection. Its a serious breach of human rights to torture (I know Israeli law does not permit it) but hundreds of allegations where no investigation has occurred causes concern.
And now you show yourself for who you are an offensive name calling person who tries (unsuccessfully) to manipulate comments made to suit his agenda.
You are the one who has been offensive, resorted to expletives, and misrepresented whats been said by others repeatedly. You have no shred of credibility in debate.
The thing is you say you accept the State Department report. YOu say you accept independent media reports. You say you accept many things – but when they say things you dont like all you do is grasp onto the bits you like in the other reports …
They can but Israel hasn’t. By your criteria of “human rights abuses” every time a black man is called a bad word Britain is guilty of “systematic human rights abuses” and a pariah state. I think you’re obsessed with Israel. Why?
Your don’t like me misinterpreting what you say, so show some decency and don’t twist what I say.
I have never used the phrase systematic human rights abuses – thats your phrase.
I have never used the phrase pariah state about Israel.
If I was obsessed that Israel was bad, then I would not acknowledge the good it has done, and present information that both condemned and criticized Israel. Nor would I condemn Hamas, Arab states and Palestine.
Its clearly you who are obsessed because you refuse to see what anyone with an open mind can see
I’m so open minded I actually read the links you give me and see the facts contained within them or do some research and find opposing views. I’m the only person who uses evidence to back up what I say. Please use facts when you speak not rhetoric.
You are so biased and fail to see perspective that any one saying anything contrary to you is either inferior (a tad arrogant there), lying, mistaken or you claim they said something they didnt, or you twist their words or you throw abuse.
Now, I dont think you can deny I have thrown a lot of evidence at you now. You remain instransigent and come back with wishy washy comments like its just a few (400-600) failure to investigate (or TORTURE), its a mistake, its hardly a crime against humanity – however you try to minimise these errors and significant ones they are – they are breaches of human rights and paint Israel in a very poor light
I deliberately choose some evidence that is grey – this crisis is not a black and white situation … and Israel is not blameless – no matter how you try and make an apple appear an orange – it will always be an apple. Israel have abused human rights and that is internationally seen to be true. deny it, but it doesnt change the facts
You’ve yet to provide one piece of evidence to demonstrate “human rights abuses”. Racism is one thing but human rights abuses is something entirely different. I don’t think you know what “human rights abuses” means and by saying Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools is “a crime against humanity” cheapens genuine human rights abuses.
Its impossible even with cast iron evidence to prove someone or some nation did something bad if the audience you are trying to convince has two perceptions i) that the person/nation who did something wrong, never could and ii) that anyone suggesting that the did something bad is an enemy of that person/nation
Even with convictions in the ICCt against Israel, or hundreds of resolutions in the security council against Israel (Oh there are …) you don’t accept it.
@Stu you’ve probably gotten the wrong end of the stick with me. I’m far closer to your point of view than you suspect. I see Israel’s treatment as part of the “new anti-Semitism” and broadly agree with the US State Dept’s definition of anti-Semitism:
“to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism…When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel’s actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and N*zis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz — this is anti-Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel…When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba and Syria, is ignored;
Ok, there are some things we can agree on – and I suspect there would be some things we could agree on easier in a face to face debate rather than some of the difficulties of message boards (as entertaining (and at times informative) as they are).
I agree condemnation of Israel can be overplayed (not always).
I agree the use of the holocaust or N@z!sm in debate does not help either side in the conflict and does not achieve a good understanding – although it is imperative to remember it because of the historical influence it plays on regional mindsets and informs the actions of some.
I agree other parties to the conflict have carried out horrendous acts against Israel and Israelis.
I agree there are other horrific human rights abuses elsewhere globally eg Darfur, Uganda, China, Iran, Kashmir etc etc and they deserve condemnation and international vigilance too. (Although that does not mean the Middle East crisis should not be observed or commented upon by …
The one thing I profoundly disagree with you though is that there is legitimate criticism of Israel and some of that is in the form of arguable human rights abuses.
…when Israel’s Magen David Adom, alone among the world’s ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross — this is anti-Semitism.”
The ICC is part of the problem. It’s why the only evidence of human rights abuses I will ever believe is independent corroborated accounts made by disinterested parties. Amnesty falls short of this.
So forgive me if I refuse to accept third-hand accounts of “genocide” and 4,000 UN resolutions against Israel because racism is alive and well and those truly opposed to it are slandered here and elsewhere.
As a health care professional in the ambulance service (I am a paramedic practitioner to answer a question you posed on a previous thread), I will check what I can from international ambulance journals etc about Magen David Adom – I have heard of the service but not its claim to seek to be a member of the International Red Cross. Although to be frank, apart from the Red Cross itself (ie British Red Cross), I do not believe any ambulance service in the UK is a member of the IRC (I am not 100% on that and will check), but that would not make this discrimination on the basis it is the only ambulance service (but if there are other reasons it may be discrimination).
I hear what you are saying about Amnesty – but I am sure you will accept that their reports on other human rights abuses internationally eg Cambodia, Guantanamo Bay, Darfur have been accurate (so why should Israel be different?).
I accept there are frustrations from Israel about UNHRC atittudes – but…
… the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part.
The problem is also that by enforcing security in what is (arguably – although arguably not) a draconian manner – then this means many people may be seen to have human rights withdrawn from them. You could argue if that security was not there the Jewish people could potentially lose human rights – but then we end in stalemate and some people still lose rights.
The lack of transparency (sometimes disguised as transparency) of Israel in its commissions and media restrictions particularly its censoring of international media and refusal to allow journalists to enter Gaza makes it completely understandable why Israel is seen with suspicion and derision.
The star of David in red colours is not accepted by the International red cross but the Geneva convention was altered to make a third emblem (red crystal) that Israel or other nations could use if required but did not prevent the red star of David being used in Israel.
Whilst UK ambulance services support the British Red Cross and receive support from them – they are not members of the IRC
In all sincerity, you should be congratulated for being a paramedic. I apologize for having a laugh at you earlier.
I don’t know much about the Red Cross issue, from what I gather Israel isn’t allowed to use the Star of David wheras the Red Cross and the Red Crescent are allowed to be used. It sounds like a small issue.
Now to Amnesty. Just because Amnesty can be seen to be neutral in one situation doesn’t mean it’s neutral in all situations. Indeed, holding rallies against Israel and inviting guest speakers who openly call for nuclear attacks on Israel immediately raises questions over Amnesty’s neutrality.
I hear what you say about journalists being refused entry to Gaza and find it suspect.
“the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part.”
I agree with that, but it obviously isn’t the case that every report of “human rights abuses” is true – given the overwhelming hostility towards Israel and the biases of NGOs.
A lot of the blame has to go to Gaza itself. Compare it to the West Bank – no problems there at all. Why? The West Bank has the PA in charge – not terrorists. Gaza has Hamas in charge – terrorists throwing hundreds of rockets across the border every year.
If they renounced terror their cause will probably win very quickly.
@Trollfromdamascus
I am pleased at last that you recognise that there are some human rights abuses by Israel.
Whilst I would agree that Hamas being leaders in Gaza has the ability to cause concern (and particularly for Israelis) – I do wonder whether Israel should consider the experience of Sinn Fein in N Ireland (they were regarded with similar suspicion to Hamas in the past).
I wonder what you mean by “finding it suspect” that journalists have been refused entry to Gaza. Are you meaning that journalists and governments are being inaccurate in what they are saying? Even Israels strong ally the US agree that journalists are denied access to Gaza and states that throughout Israel foreign journalists are subject to censorship.
Thanks for your kind words about my profession – although, thats not why I do it – I enjoy it and find it a challenge.
I do not think all NGOs are biased. I agree there can be criticism of Amnesty – that does not mean (particularly when they have been seen to be accurate in many issues globally) that what they say in every instance in Israel is incorrect – in fact, I would argue there is a sustainable case in much of what it says.
I agree with you that not every allegation of human rights abuses against Israel will be true or fully true. Due to the emotions, anxieties and bad feeling (to underestimate it!) there is a likelihood that some allegations will either be fabricated or in some cases exaggerated. Equally, as you have already agreed some claims will be true
It’s always funny when ageing sexworkers trying to play smart with all the money in their pockets. How dare m.l. criticise Peter Tatchell with his baseless biased propaganda? All those years Peter were constantly fighting for human rights he spent with f…ing for money. m.l. is the last person whose opinion matters in this issue…
Peter Tatchell is a tiresome, anachronistic relic. How I wish he would simply go away or at the very least, just shut up.
Tatchell is typical of the Left in this country. He sided with the vile and violent Muslims when he called for East London Pride to be stopped. Once again, as a cliched Leftie, he is opposed to anything to do with Israel.
Come on Peter, admit the truth – you are a self-hating Jew and your true agenda along with the rest of the socialists in this country is the destruction of Israel even if it means getting into bed with the Muslims who would have no hesitation in killing you because you are both gay and Jewish.
The fundamental point to make against all of you who support a boycott of Israel is: why always only Israel. Yes, Israel has flaws, but they are certainly not greater than the flaws of its neighbours. Yet it is only Israel that you peoople want to boycott. Why? Why should we not see it as something positive that a meeting is held in Israel where there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss the Israeli-arab conflict with the people who are most affected by the conflict? The BDS-movement is nothing but a racist, dogmatic and bullying movement and should not be allowed to prevent international queer alliances to be made across ALL borders.
1) That Lucas makes adult films does not disqualify him from speaking out on any issue he likes. Trying to delegitimize him for this is just an argument ad hominem.
2) Israel is a democracy with a concern for the human rights of all its citizens. But, Israel is a State, and the foremost responsibility of any state is to protect its citizens. There are walls and checkpoints because the Arabs carry out attacks against men, women and children on buses, cafes, and in their homes. They launch rockets into towns from Gaza. If there were no attacks on civilian targets by Arabs, there would be no checkpoints, separation wall, etc.
3) Ask yourself: if the Palestinians were to unilaterally lay down their rockets and their suicide bombs today, and seek to live in peace with Israel, what would happen? And, on the other hand, what if the Israelis unilaterally dismantled checkpoints and security barriers, what would happen?
Israel has a better human rights record than any of its neighbors. At no point in history, has there ever been a liberal democratic state in the Middle East — except for Israel. Of all the countries in the Middle East, Israel is the only one where the LGBT community enjoys even a small measure of equality.
In Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, and Syria, homosexual conduct is punishable by flogging, imprisonment, or both. But homosexuals there get off pretty lightly compared to their counterparts in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, who are put to death. Israeli homosexuals can adopt, openly serve in the army, enter civil unions, and are protected by exceptionally strongly worded ant-discrimination legislation. Beats a death sentence. In fact, it beats America.
Everyone knows that what happened and is still happening in Darfur is genocide, whether or not the UN and the Arab League will call it such.
There has been a mass exodus from Darfur as the oppressed seek safety. They have not had much luck. Many have gone north to Egypt — where they are treated despicably. The brave make a run through the desert in a bid to make it to Israel. Not only do they face the natural threats of the Sinai, they are also used for target practice by the Egyptian soldiers patrolling the border. Why would they take the risk?
Because in Israel they are treated with compassion — they are treated as the refugees that they are – and perhaps Israel’s cultural memory of genocide is to blame. The Israeli government has even gone so far as to grant several hundred Darfurian refugees citizenship. This alone sets Israel apart from the rest of the world.
…and you call it apartheid?
Following its age-old tradition, world opinion blames the Jews, and this time I happen to share that world opinion. This festering wound would never have existed had Israel not waived its sacred right to kill those who are trying to kill it. It is as simple as that.
You would never see the Spanish government in peace talks with the leaders of the ETA — the British government would never negotiate with Thomas Murphy, Russian PM Putin with Chechen Basaev. And if President Obama were to sit down and talk about peace with Osama Bin Laden, the world would view this as insanity. But Israel can do the exact same thing — and earn international praise in the process.
The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them.
The so called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a “nation” — or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
Michael Lucas is in his style. It is easy to see that most of the comments in his support here are from him. Real Gay Activists do not have a job. They just do not have time for that. Peter Tatchell is committed 24/7 to gay rights and human rights. Lucas is committed to earn money on porn, he is not doing it for fun, he is doing it for the sake of earning $$ and some time, he spend 5 minutes to support Israel’s policy and bash the muslims. Lucas loves Israel, but after all, he prefers to live in New York where he does not risk for his life like those who leave in Israel. if that is not a coward… I even find rather insulting from Pinknews to put Lucas in front of Tatchell. This is a different level. Lucas is so committed to gay rights that he never managed to support the LGBT community in Israel with donations. For someone who earned his fortune on the back of the gay community I find it rather disgusting. It just shows the man. He is here to advertise his name and his porn.
@Mark
I presume some of that is aimed at me. Well I am not Michael Lucas – having some of his income would be very pleasant.
I don’t support all his views – but I do support his right to air them and for PN to publish them. There are very much wrongs on the side of Israel but also on the side of Arab nations, the Palestinians and some of the international bodies. Its complex and will take some very wise people to resolve.
Its either comedy on your part or low level paranoia to assume that people supporting Lucas are actually Lucas.
rubbish… this article comes from the man who filmed a gay porno in the ruins of an arab home which was demolished during the israeli bombardment of 1948… this makes me sick… the main problem is co-operating with a government that is defying international law and several UN resolutions and ICJ court rulings.. no matter what he sasys about gay rights in israel ( which are progressive ) the government there operates and apartheid regime
“Peter was there. He should know.” Yes, he should and he does. What are the credentials of Michael Lucas?
In seeing the Louis Theroux documentary I had a u-turn on Israel, there is a lot of good that goes on there but they seem to have a problem they are refusing to acknowledge with the behaviour of some of their citizens.
The issue is that Israel isn’t a neutral country to host the event, it might well be the most tolerant place on the planet but it’s still excluding people. The other side of it is that the LGBT community as a whole risks increasing the hatred by association with Israel. In places like Croatia and Russia we see the rise in these violent homophobic groups, who are most likely anti-semitic in the extreme, this could inflame things further and by making it pro/anti Israel Israel is distracting from the fact that Israel is hated by the kind of people who would turn hosting a major lgbt event as more of a reason to target us.
Bowing to bigots is cowardly. You’re saying because bigots hate Jews the student organisation shouldn’t go to Israel?
I too saw Louis Theroux’s documentary but it didn’t turn me into a raving anti-Israel lunatic. Yes they have problems with extremist settlers but even the settlers admitted they were breaking Israeli law.
completely agree. people seem to rush to condemn israel but they dont appreciate the state has the most advanced democracy in the middle east, is the only champion of gay rights there and frankly, in any ther country around there, gays are hanged. So research before you rush to judge,
errr, people “rush to condemn israel” because it’s a terrorist state which imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip, steals land from the Palestinians in illegal settlements and discriminates against arabs within its own border. They could be the most tolerant country in the world when it comes to LGBT people, that’s not the point.
We have learned PC statements trough collective feeling of guilt that media impose on us for last 6o years but in our core we know Israel is deeply intolerant and chauvinistic country run from NY. Met some great people there thou and love the Holly land. Repressed became the oppressors. Same as happened to black community. Before calling me racist think about it. I have Crescent with David’s star tattooed on my arm.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 60 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
“it’s a terrorist state”
Defending yourself against terrorists makes you the terrorist? this inversion of reality is very strange.
“imprisons 1.6 million people in the world’s largest concentration camp, known as the gaza strip”
WHy do they have to let in 1.6 million people into Israel, many of whom want to blow them up? Egypt has now opened fully its border with Gaza. How is Israel imprisoning 1.6 million people in a concentration camp?
“discriminates against arabs within its own border”
Do you mean some people in Insrael are racist? Golly. Israel’s Declaration of Independence requires legal equality for all regardless of sex, race or religion.
You’re a liar Stuart Neyton.
all “facts” mentioned completely untrue. Only Iran hangs gay people. period. Iran is a democracy like Israel. Democracy for me and slavery starvation slaughter for you. In fact Kurdistan, Turkey even Kuwait are more democratic than Israel. And homophobes in Israel are the same people assassinating american citizens unarmed american citizens assassinated by IDF I lived there so I know. Do some research. don’t mp3 back Israeli hate propaganda from Israeli lobbyists. IDF tortures Americans including 100%disabled USA vets. It targets children.
there can be no possible
I am afraid that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago.
The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which Carter had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States, Canada, Australia and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.
Britain and US ended Iranian democracy in 1953 in operation Ajax overthrowing Prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh instaling Reza Pahlavi. Let’s not pretend we on West are victims. We go around the world stealing and killing and sooner or later it comes back to us.
“Iran is a democracy like Israel”
F*** me. The fact you say this shows how mad you are.
Jews live happily in Iran without any victimisation. I’m not saying Iran is perfect, but Israel is an illegal state that justifies their own Holocaust of Palestinians with what Hitler did to them??? What about the 5 million dead in the Congo? 750,000 in Rwanda? The other more than 50 million non-Jews killed in the war? No, all we hear on our news and media is about ‘poor old Israel’. Good luck finding anything on the Discovery channel or any other channel about any other holocaust but the Jewish one. The only thing that illegal F*scist hive ever learned was to be just the same as the N*zis. The sooner that terrorist state is gone the better. We’re sick of hearing about ‘poor Israel’ in the Jewish owned media while the IDF slaughters women and children and treats the rest like dogs. The world woke up and saw through the propaganda, Israel is finished now.
Whilst I do accept Israels interpretation of the holocaust and I do understand that this has good reason to make Israelis concerned for their security – what it does not do is give grounds for partition and the human rights abuses they have commited. There have been some good acts by Israel, that can not be denied, but equally there have been murderous and inhumane actions.
Why do I somehow feel that these remarks, with which I have some sympathy up to a point, were not wholly, or even mostly, penned by Lucas?
Because you don’t know much about him? He’s been writing about this kind of thing for years, spoke at the Oxford Union about it as well as Ivy League and other universities across America. He’s not your average porn bimbo.
Firstly, can I saw congratulations to PN for putting two very articulate reports with contrasting views on this point.
There are lots of wrongs and rights in terms of the big picture of human rights in Israel – on both sides of the argument.
On the specific issue of LGBT rights – Israel has done a fantastic job compared to other nations close to it.
I would not want to make a judgement on LGBT rights alone when judging a nation on human rights – but they are rights that speak to me as a gay man. Equally I would want liberty, freedom of speech etc.
I respect Israel for its stance on LGBT issues but I feel its approach to human rights and intransigence in terms of working with the Palestinians and international community to find a solution to the situation there is disappointing.
However, I am no more concerned about the situation that I am about Morocco, Sudan, Uganda, Syria, Bahrain and many other places.
I agree LGBT events ideally should be held in locations where all are …
…able to attend and international travel bans are far from ideal in this situation. However, I do think Israel deserves its plaudits and support for its stance on LGBT rights and comment can be made on the wider political situation by delegates – and it is one conference – there will be others.
What should Israel do in the absence of internationally recognized legal basis for her rather feeble attempts to defend herself? Only one thing: free herself of the corruption of moral relativism, ignore the irrelevant opinions of the Europeans, and summon the necessary courage to use her superior military might to enforce her own concepts of good and evil, her own understanding of right and wrong with the maximum efficiency and minimum loss of life on her side.
This is equally true for Israel in its suffering from the never ending pan-Arab war against it and the West in its War on Terrorism. After all, every passing day brings new evidence that the two wars are actually one and the same.
Wait for China to emerge as a top economy, Israel will be back begging Europe, no 2 economy, for help. World is slowly loosing patience with Israel stubbornness and arrogance
“World is slowly loosing patience with Israel stubbornness and arrogance”
Yes, just let the terrorists blow Israel up, then we can all live in peace without the pesky Jews complaining.
Israel is to be applauded for it’s mostly pro stance on LGBT rights.
It’s other human rights are in a shocking state of affairs however.
There’s a good reason why people regard it in the same way as they used to regard South Africa in the 1980′s.
@versatile
I have some sympathy with your comments – particularly the fact that the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling. I can see it comes (in part) as a defensive strategy but this does not justify it.
I do wonder what benefit an LGBT youth group not holding their conference in Israel would do to improve general human rights. Does it really carry that much weight?
There’s no problems with human rights in Israel you’re talking rubbish.
Look up human rights in Israel on Wikipedia. It’s not hard.
i prefer a more reliable source than Wikipedia – and the reputable sources I have considered demonstrate that Israeli human rights are generally appalling. The UN Human Rights Council also seem to think so, as do Amnesty International and many governments.
Wikipedia isn’t a source. It’s an encyclopaedia. It takes its information from primary sources. The opening sentence on Human Rights in Israel is
“Human rights in Israel have been evaluated by various human rights treaty bodies, intergovernmental organizations, non-governmental organizations and individuals.”
You have no basis to libel Israel by saying “Israeli human rights are generally appalling.” You’re denying the truth. Why?
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which can be editted (and has been) to include false information. It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence. Personally, it has its uses but is poor to demonstrate facts.
I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. You havent addressed that. I am satisfied that along with common opinion in the human rights movements Israel is regarded overall as breaching international law (indeed it has accepted that it has on occasions) and sorely in need of improving its human rights record.
Just because Wikipedia can be edited by everyone doen’t mean it’s full of junk and not open to review, scrutiny, and fact checking.
“It is widely regarded in academic settings as unreliable and an inappropriate source of evidence”
Wikipedia is not a source of evidence. It gets information from primary sources with the intention of educating the world. Maybe you prefer to get your information from Amnesty International with no oversight, no proof, no quality assessment, no verification, no authority and no reliability.
If you refuse to trust verifiable information simply because it finds its way onto Wikipedia, I don’t think you understand what Wikipedia is, the way it works or how it should be used.
“I have represented some evidence of Israel flouting human rights. ”
OK the flotilla incident – now regarded as agitators while Israel acted within the law:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece
As for your links on torture
1) “An official Israeli report has acknowledged for the first time that the Israeli security service tortured detainees…Two years after the report was written, the Supreme Court banned the use of physical force in interrogations.”
2) “He has been arrested four times by the Israeli security services, accused of stone-throwing and vandalising security cameras in the Old City. He says he has been detained each time for a few days in one of Jerusalem’s interrogation centres, and then sent home under orders not to leave the house for another few days.”
The humanity!
It also mentions bringing in family members giving the impression harm may come to them if they don’t confess to crimes.
“Human rights group the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) says a pattern has emerged recently of the security forces using such tactics with Palestinian interrogees”
OK they shouldn’t do it but it’s not too bad + now it’s in the papers theyll probably stop.
The UN Human Rights Council is a joke, and includes Syria and Libya as members. Even the past two heads of the UN have said the Human Rights Council is a joke.
It’s an Orwellian joke that pretends it cares about human rights, when it’s whole purpose is to deflect attention from the human rights abuses of its members.
Regardless of the voracity of the UNHRC in the past – over 140 nations supported maintaining Israels human rights record as a permanent agenda item for UNHRC – no other nation has caused such concern for so many nations on the grounds of human rights.
Amnesty voices repeated concern.
There were simultaneous attacks by the Israeli military on Palestinians, the West Bank, Gaza and their borders a few months ago resulting in dozens of civilian deaths.
The incursions which occurred on aid ships to Gaza (which despite your reassurances that they were agitators) are still severely concerning to the international community.
To suggest Israels record on human rights generally is good is blinkered and wrong
but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police?
I have just looked it up on Wikipedia and the entry is full of references to human rights violations. I suggest that either you haven’t read it or you are trying to mislead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel#Human_rights_record_in_the_Occupied_Territories
Well said Jamesh. I hadn’t bothered to look because it was Wikipedia – but looking through what appears a well balanced entry that you give – just reading for a few minutes and I have noted a dozen human rights significant infringements by Israel. Palestine have a long way to go with human rights too, and many of the Arab states have much further to go. But to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie.
@Jamesh the so-called “human rights abuses” are not really that: denying statehood isn’t the same as torture. Stop misleading people.
@Stu “to claim that Israel is a utopia for human rights as some have left as an undertone in their message claiming human rights abuses as mistakes – is wrong and a lie.”
Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course. You have no evidence of this. Every person within Israel is legally treated as equal. If you want to argue that foreigners in Gaza aren’t given the same rights as Israelis you’re fighting a losing war.
@Trollfromdamascus
Where have I mentioned the colour of peoples skin … not once …
Seems you are playing a race card.
I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur
Sorry, I was using “brown people” as shorthand because in the end it all boils down to that. I assume you don’t think Israel “abuses” the human rights of light skinned Jews.
“I just deel the humans right record from Israel is lacking and most international and independent commentators seem to concur”
Show these “international and independent commentators” who agree “Israel’s human rights are lacking”. I don’t believe you because apart from a smattering of socialist nutjobs and Islamist extremists I haven’t seen systematic abuse of anyone in Israel. You’re making it up.
@Trollfromdamascus
Just because you havent seen systematic abuse and witnessed it first hand – does not mean it has not happened.
Watch the news (ideally from a respected non Israeli, non-Arab, non-US outlet). Read respected independent journalists reports. Read Amnesty breifings. Look at the comments of the nations (150+ of them) who voted to keep Israel permanently as an agenda item on the UNHRC. Look at all the UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel.
Need I go on …
Your support for Israel and its right to defend itself is admirable. You need to look beyond at what is being reported elsewhere.
Its clear that not only is Israel breaching human rights, so is Paelstine and Paelstinian groups and many of the Arab states – but this does not justify Israels human rights record.
@Stu I meant I haven’t seen any genuine authentic reports of systematic human rights abuses committed by Israel. If any exist that’s a game changer but none exist.
Your assertion that Israeli and American press is biased is strange. Israeli press is freer than Italy’s. Maybe you don’t like Israel or America.
As I told you elsewhere, the UNHRC has been told by the head of the UN Ban Ki Moon that they’re obsessed with Israel.
You keep talking about “grave human rights abuses” but not one scrap of evidence is given to support the accusation.
If by “UN security council resolutions that have been breached by Israel” you mean Israel refuses Palestinian statehood that’s not “grave human rights abuses” but a political fight.
@TrollfromDamascus
I have no doubt that in principle the press in Israel (and indeed in the USA) are free – freedom of speech is taken to extremes in the US (often to the expense of others human rights). However, that does not mean the press are unbiased. Freedom means you can speak your bias. The US is pro-Israel as are many of its senior journalists, their political stance, their nuance, their publishers money buying that view … Now, I am not saying that neither they nor the Israeli press do not have reasonable comment to make – merely that looking at pro and anti Israeli reporting from nations that are not so tied into the politics and funding of Israel gives a less biased view.
If you read my views and opinions on here you will see that I repeatedly say there is fault on both sides of the crisis in the Middle East. I am anti Israel, I value its LGBT rights. I have enjoyed visiting there. I recognise what Annan said about Israeli abuses and that has regular commentary in..
… the media and UN publications and those of action groups such as Amnesty show repeated human rights abuses by both sides.
I certainly don’t think the Italian press is a credible comparitor given corruption in Italy.
You have given me a quote that condemns the UNHRC by the current UN secretary general. I have replied on another thread with a quote from another statesman Kofi Annan which balances that with concern at Israeli abuses whilst cautioning the UNHRC to have a more global perspective (and that seems reasonable to me).
You suggest that I may be anti-Israel and anti-American – not at all. Perhaps you are so pro-Israel that you blinkered from seeing its wrongs. Or maybe, you are so anti-Arab that it colours your views?
If unbiased press is your criteria you’ll have a very hard time finding it. Denying the legitimacy of the entire American and Israeli media is extreme to say the least.
It does give me an idea of what you believe though.
Attempting to portray me as a racist must mean your arguments are running out.
I keep begging you for some reports about these “human rights abuses” you’re so fond of. They’re strangely lacking…
@TrollfromDamascus
Nice little twist on my words there. I merely suggested that there was media that was less biased on the situation that Israeli or US media and that this would protray a more balanced picture. A perfectly reasonable and legitimate view. I have given you plenty of evidence (as have others) but you seem to ignore, or claim they are not abuses (when they clearly are) or see it from a different angle (although how you can conceive that the storming of the Gaza bound aid ships is appropriate in any way is astounding).
Although the tone of my discussion and debate here is more anti-Israeli (because of the points I seek to refute which are inaccurate – in my opinion) I have been at pains to point out blame should not just lie at the feet of the Israelis but also the Paelstinians, other Arab states and elsewhere.
Since you claim I have not offered you any evidence of Israeli human rights abuses (which I have!) then I will go and research some more for you ….
@Stu we went through this. Your “evidence” of human rights abuses consisted of a disproven illegal flotilla attempt to illegally enter territorial waters by terrorists, a BBC article which said Israel changed the law to forbid torturing terrorist suspects and another BBC article which said it was a human rights abuse to bring in a child’s father to the polce station when he was held for a crime.
I’m sorry but you’re starting to sound like a fanatic.
@Stu I almost forgot. Not funding Islamic schools to the same degree as normal state schools isn’t a “crime against humanity” in the traditional sense.
BTW the US State Dept Human Rights Report on Israel might make for some uncomfortable reading for you, particularly when compared to the workings of Britain
Thanks for tipping me off about this resource. It’s invaluable information :)
@Trollfromdamascus
Firstly you clearly have missed some of my evidence as you do not refer to it all – perhaps, in fairness you have only looked where I have pasted a website for checking, but there other elements (of my and other peoples evidence) referred to in text and naming or suggesting source.
As for the “flotilla” as you choose to refer to it. Even if one accepts your call that they were agitators (which is subject to dispute amongst numerous agencies) then the action by the IDF was disproprotionate and an invasion and a breach of human rights of those people on those vessels.
As for the BBC reports – some do refer to human rights abuses and some do congratulate Israel on their conduct.
You clearly do not read my words very clearly. Firstly you accuse me of referring to you as a fanatic (which I never did), then you call me a fanatic (yet I am constantly seeking to show balance – Israel has lots of improvements to make and is far from perfect but does do some good. ….
… Others, including Arab states and Palestine and Hamas have a great deal of significant improvements they need to do (some of which Israel already has correctly achieved, some of which Israel are wanting in) – but they can also be congratulated for some acts.
So far from fanatical, I am wanting to achieve balance and proprortion. Its you who brings up the term fanatacism – and one wonders if you are projecting.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-hoax-video-blog-and-the-plot-to-smear-a-gaza-aid-mission-2304030.html
@Kane
Very interesting article.
I was referring to this story re the Gaza ship incident:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10195838
For someone who claims to demand academic professionalism at all times, you must be able to understand that muttering about something doesn’t make it “evidence” just because you say it.
Your links to a few articles even demonstrated Israel’s commitment to human rights.
You keep going on about Israel boarding the terrorist flotilla as “disproprotionate and an invasion and a breach of human rights”. You’re clearly wrong. Israel’s blockade of Gaza and boarding of terrorist ships attempting to defeat the legal blockade was perfectly legal and not “breaching human rights”.
Calling me “paranoid” because I ask for proof of “human rights abuses” isn’t normal. You go on to say I’m “anti-Arab”. You take the smallest of incidents – like Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools in Israel – and call it “crimes against humanity”. I think that counts as fanaticism.
@Trollfromdamascus
No matter how many times you try and convince me that Israel is a utopia for human rights it just simply isnt true.
I have supplied you with some evidence that demonstrates that in some areas Israel is good in human rights (and in the same evidence that Israel is exceptionally poor).
We are never going to agree on the Gaza aid ship (not the false flotilla a year later – the one where the IDF killed numerous people who were no threat (as admitted by IDF spokesmen at the time). Its one of the most flagrant breaches of human rights ever taken by a state in recent years.
Others have also given you evidence.
Now, I don’t have to educate you and I am perfectly content that I have demonstrated my academic acumen on several occasions – so your snide comment is unnecessary. If you want to see the evidence – open your eyes, take your blinkers off – read the lengthy State department report I shared without cherry picking, read the Amnesty and MSF reports … etc
@Troll
You were the one who brought up Islamic school funding not me – I mentioned prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism being giving preference and did not express how that was manifested.
You suggest that Israel has made mistakes, that things are hardly a crime against humanity (which it doesnt have to be to be a breach of human rights), or deny the facts of events or the opinion of statesmen with integrity such as Kofi Annan.
You ignore my comments about failure to investigae allegations of torture – at all.
You also ignore my comments condemning Palestine and Arabic states and Hamas.
Israel is not a utopia for human rights. It gets some things very right and some incredibly wrong.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything. The fact of the matter is systematic breaches of human rights by Israel don’t occur.
Your assertion that Israel systematically abuses human rights is a lie and not demonstrable by any means. You’ve offered no proof of your claims, merely rhetoric.
Frankly I think you can’t be arsed to look at the facts you claim to know and every time I read your links to “human rights abuses” they state the opposite. I think you’re having a piss poor attemp at demonstrating what you think to be true. In reality you’re full of rhetoric and BS and not a single piece of evidence has been provided by you to demonstrate your wild claims.
You’re a liar and a fraud.
Joseph Goebbels would be proud of israel’s propaganda machine
@Stu “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism”
I looked up your citation and that is the manner in which “prejudice on the grounds of Orthodox Judaism” happens in Israel. Try reading your own sources for once.
“You suggest that Israel has made mistakes”
Yes.
“that things are hardly a crime against humanity”
Not funding Islamic schools and bringing in a child’s parents to visit them in prison aren’t generally considered “crimes against humanity”.
Re: Kofi Annan: his comments were in regard to Jenin, now known to have been fabricated by Palestinians.
The problem is your exaggeration. You say Israel “gets some things incredibly wrong”. It’s my assertion – backed up by all available proof – that Israel is no worse than any other Western democracy.
This is the truth and you haven’t shown otherwise. Stop lying.
@Kane “Joseph Goebbels would be proud of israel’s propaganda machine”
That’s the lowest yet, likening Israel to N*zi Germany and/or claiming I’m an Israeli propagandist.
You’re clearly deranged.
so the death of a bloke in dubai hotel involving up to 29 assasins with forged passports had nothing to do with israel?
@Kane what’s that got to do with anything? If you think Israel’s unique in extrajudicial assassinations you’re deluded. Ever heard of drone attacks in Pakistan? Do you even know how security services operate? Your obsession with Israel is telling.
…..but troll, u claim that israel is such human rights heaven, whiter than white, so how come top israeli officials are expelled from britain and australia or top israeli general does a swift retreat from uk airport after stand off with armed uk police???
@TrollfromDamascus.
Someone who is losing their argument resorts to temper tantrums and name calling like you just have.
You’re blind, you’re naive.
I can’t believe the idiocy of your position.
How can you not see that whilst Israel has done some good things it has also done some very poor things?
What about the recent death linked to Mossad where British, German and Australian passports were forged by Israeli agents? Was that not someone deprived of life? Were they not passport holders who faced intense suspicion because of Israeli action? The numerous diplomatic sanctions imposed by several countries including the UK and Germany demonstrate the strength of evidence that was not published.
Try these:
http://wn.com/Jewish_Rabbi_condemns_Israeli_genocide_in_Gaza
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/22/gaza-flotilla-un-condemns-israeli-brutality
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/kenny-warns-against-blockade-trip-16017509.html
stu i already mentioned earlier that troll’s speciality is monosyllabic name calling, he is accusing others of obsession with israel while in reality it is he who is obsessed with Goebbels style propaganda
@Troll
Re Kofi Annan, if he had just been referring to Jenin then it wouldnt be an appropriate comment to quote, but if you look at the entirity of what Annan was talking about at that time, it is clear that he was not referring to a single event but multiple events.
I note you continue to fail to address the concerns about Israel not investigating any allegation of torture.
The US State Department said “The government implemented policies including marriage, divorce, education, burial, and observance of the Sabbath based on Orthodox Jewish interpretation of religious law, and allocations of state resources favored Orthodox Jewish institutions. … On November 18, police detained Nofrat Frankel, a 25-year-old female medical student … for praying” …”Many religious communities were not recognized.” …”The legal defense NGO Jerusalem Institute of Justice (JIJ) alleged that MOI officials denied services to certain citizens based on their religious beliefs. The JIJ had 70 such cases
@Stu – I just mentioned extrajudicial deaths! dear god get a grip.
“I note you continue to fail to address the concerns about Israel not investigating any allegation of torture.”
BS I answered below. I’ll reprint it for you.
@Stu From the US State Dept:
“the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct”
“the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct”
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm
“the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct”
And you keep going on about the terrorist flotilla:
the IDF investigation into the May 31 events concluded that the use of live fire was justified, although it criticized organizational and intelligence failures for not being prepared for the level of violence committed by some of the flotilla’s passengers. The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force.
@Stu I now realise you’re incapable of reading. Try it for once.
@Kane the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6963473.ece. “The Islamist group Hamas is masterminding efforts to have senior Israeli leaders arrested for alleged war crimes when they visit European countries including Britain, a top Hamas official involved in the effort has told The Times.”
That loophole will be closed becuase idiots like you hate Israel with no justification, no evidence, no proof and no reason beyond your obsessed hatreI doubt you or Stu will bother to read such biased papers as The Times because it contradicts the BS you believe.
Stu I’m sorry to say but you’re increasingly sounding like an idiot.
@troll
…… the specific incident you moan about was due to Hamas and anti-Israel fanatics attempting to misuse courts to arrest Israeli officials…..
REALLY??? AND I THOUGHT HE FORGOT TO PAY CONGESTION CHARGE, SILLY ME.
Please try harder, clearly you like to mix politics with law
@Kane what are you talking about?
“Hamas using English law to demand arrest of Israeli leaders for war crimes”
Congestion charge? You’re as mad as Stu.
following might explain;
SARCASM
Pronunciation:/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
[mass noun]
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt:
she didn’t like the note of sarcasm in his voice
Origin:
mid 16th century: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh’, in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’)
@Stu and Kane -
two of the dumbest people on here.
OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION|*** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again)
….
*** propaganda
.OH COME ON, THAT ACCOLADE SURELY BELONGS TO YOU, YOUR CONTRIBUTION *** ON THE TOPIC WAS INVALUABLE (sarcasm intended, just in case u didnt get it, again)
….
*** propaganda
@Kane I would suggest you brush up on your English classes. You’re doing good for English as a second language but there’s a lot of room for improvement.
8/10
@Troll
The State Department does say investigations took place into inhumane conditions in criminal detention – that is separate from the allegations of torture which the State Department clearly state are not investigated
@Troll
If your justification for (as you clinically put it) extra judicial assassinations, is that other states do it … then your standard for human rights abuses – which assassinations are (whoever carries them out) is even lower than I thought. Would we let a burglar off from burglary merely because another person burgled him- No. So, why should Israel not be held to scrutiny for state sponsored murders just because other nations do?
That in itself clearly demonstrates unequivicably that the Israeli state has breached some human rights and international law.
Even someone as intransigent as you must admit that – and if you don’t then you are parroting propaganda.
@Troll
Criticizing someone in a snide manner for their lack of ability in English, is offensive and could be construed as racist. If you like being referred to as racist – dont be racist.
i lived there and i can assure you Israel treats Jewish minorities from Africa, the Middle East and Asia with hate humiliation and racism. It abuses people. I saw with my own eyes how IDF deliberately dehumanizes people. Even IDF concriptees are often ashamed.
Since Arabs think Israel has no right to exist and “terrorism” is the pejorative of the day, the Arabs tailor their own definition of terrorism in such a way that everything an Israeli does, including even the breathing, becomes an act of terrorism, while every crime committed by an Arab becomes a heroic act of legitimate resistance. That approach appears disgustingly immoral to us only because we do not share their goals. In fact, theirs — unlike our own — is a perfectly reasonable approach.
From our own perspective, an Arab terrorist on his way to a martyrdom operation remains an innocent civilian up until the moment he ties the bomb belt around his waist. But even then all he has to do to remain immune to any possible attempt to prevent the planned mass murder is to make sure that the explosives are not immediately visible: as long as they remain hidden under his clothes, he is considered an innocent civilian….
Many people on here will take the terrorists’ side. They’re vocal lunatics.
Peter Tatchell has done more for gay rights than this guy will ever do. He should stick to making cr4p porn and let gay rights activists carry on with gay rights activism. Anyone who does a tacky remake of la dolce vita should be banished forever, instead of trying to use tatchell as a scapegoat.
I agree. The guy’s a porn star/producer/prostitute/whatever. Can the next speaker have a modicum of integrity, please?
Purely because you do not like the films this guy has produced does not mean that he is not entitled to an opinion.
I didnt like Jaws, but Steven Spielberg has some interesting and relevant political points to make at times.
What an analogy. I’m happy to listen to Spielberg because his films indicate that he has a coherent moral philosophy that is worth taking on board. Michael Lucas, whose films are crass, exploitative and devoid of artistic merit, doesn’t merit any such comparison.
Just because you do not like his industry does not mean he can not make his political and philosophical views known – nor that he is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately the Oxford Union agreed that he had some valid views.
Sure, he can make them known, the same way the rest of us can. But it’s a dangerous precedent to hold porn stars up as celebrities or social heroes, because they become aspirational. Pornography is not something anyone with any level of self-respect should aspire to, and it’s a horrible demonstration of how far we’re slipping if people think it doesn’t matter.
@Jeremy
I certainly would agree that I do not think pornography is a credible aspirational route. That is a personal opinion.
I don’t think in his message that Michael Lucas is saying – hey, look at my thoughts on the Israeli situation and on gay politics – hey, do you agree – fancy being a porn actor?. I just don’t see that. Nor do I see him seeking celebrity status in this or heroic stature – in fact he ridicules Tatchell (mostly unwarranted) for his iconic stature.
I know some porn stars have said they do not see themselves as oppressed and made a personal decision to enter (and stay in) the industry. I suspect, for some, they are trying to convince themselves of this or are ignorant of the oppression they were under. That said, some will genuinely have made the decision freely.
The vast majority will have made the decision freely. That doesn’t change the point about exploitation. If (for example) I needed £50 and someone said they’d give it to me if I performed a sexual act on them, I will have made the decision freely, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that I had been exploited. Even if I thought, as porn is as pervasive and accessible at it is, that it would be a better career choice than working for a living, I will also have been seriously misled and, short of being one of the 1% of individuals who don’t experience guilt (who are called ‘psychopaths’), my self-respect would take an enormous kicking as a result. Let’s not elevate their social status beyond what they actually are, which is prostitutes.
@Jeremy
I am not trying to lift anyones social status.
I accept that even those who make free choices to enter the “industry” may economically or otherwise have been influenced into it.
You can argue the same about other more acceptable career choices – however.
There will also be (I perceive a minority) who choose a career in porn without economics being the prime motive. That does not make them psychopaths, nor does it make their choice honourable in my personal view but it can mean that they are not oppressed. Its rhetoric to say that all in the porn industry are oppressed – it may be the vast majority but not all.
Short of drawing a diagram, I don’t know how to explain it to you. It doesn’t help that you’re putting words like ‘oppression’ in my mouth.
@Jeremy
You used the word exploitative – I merely changed it for an alternative understanding of the word
I don’t know how to explain to you – that I agree with lots of your view but that its not factually correct in every circumstance and that barring someone from voicing their articulate (if not entirely factual) political views on the basis of their business (which is the logical extension of your view that Lucas lacks integrity) is failing to allow free speech.
I suppose there is the distinction. I’m not saying we should bar anyone’s free speech, but there’s a big difference between barring and not printing. He can say whatever he likes, I’m not stopping him. I just don’t think any more notice should be taken of his opinion than any common garden crack whore.
@Jeremy
Maybe I pushed your argument further to its natural conclusion than you would be comfortable – if so, I apologise.
The Lucas argument is not just printed in PN, its also in the Jerusalem Post, Gay City News and other outlets – so in that respect I think PN would be remiss if not balancing Tatchells views with views that are available elsewhere.
“Films” in inverted commas, obviously.
Yeah, how Dare someone have a difference of opinion, tut, tut!!
When it comes to human rights, it is a fact that BOTH Israel and Muslim states or organizations are BOTH to be condemned for their well-proven records. Speaking of inconsistencies and biases…. you people…!
This is one of the most Victorian comments I ever read on this site. Don’t most activists have a day job? And why would producing gay porn disqualify you from having opinions on gay issues? Rather the opposite, I should think. This is really unpleasantly moralistic and a direction I think nobody wants to go in.
Personally speaking, a direction I don’t want to go in is one where we giving further legitimacy to people whose only achievement is to film people having sex for money.
-
Pornography, as much as we now view it as harmless fun, is actually socially corrosive and encourages us to objectify other human beings and view sex as nothing more spiritual than going to the toilet. Not to mention normalising sexual practices that are a sign of pathological sickness. I don’t want their ‘stars’ speaking on my behalf. What next, Linda Lovelace taking on Michael Gove over the subject of religion in free schools. Come on!
That’ll never happen. Ms Lovelace died some years ago.
Lol, just the first example that came to mind. Though, a quick scan of Wikipedia reveals she became part of the anti-pornography movement later in life. Telling.
Some (maybe all) pornography may be exploitative.
You could argue that fast food advertising on childrens television is exploitative too.
That said, McDonalds have interesting views on the environment and other important issues.
Therefore, Michael Lucas’s industry may exploit some people – it doesnt mean he can’t have a valid, real, articulate and intelligent position on human rights and international relations.
He may do. But so might anyone. Why should he get a platform? On the basis of his ‘celebrity’?
Other people recently got a platform on here who were not celebrities …
I think PN found an article that contrasted the one they found by Tatchell and thought they provided a good comparison.
It’s an article attacking the character of one of Britain’s most prominent human rights activists, written by a man with no character. A good contrast it is not.
@Flamineo
Clearly the Oxford Union thought he was an appropriate speaker for their debates.
Why should someones career or business choice make their views on international relations, LGBT issues, politics or philosophy automatically irrelevant or redundant?
I’m not saying his view is automatically redundant. I am not saying that Oxford University shouldn’t invite a gay porn director to talk about the crisis in the middle east. I do suspect that there are an awful lot more people qualified to talk about it than him though. Without a name as a porn director, his article wouldn’t be printed here. Is that the precedent we’re setting now? That the celebrity of porn workers gives their voices greater power than, say, teachers or philosophers, or doctors or psychologists. All of whom would have an opinion believe me, but would never get this level of promotion. Is that what people have to do to gain power–give up their moral integrity?
Speaking for myself, I just worry that pornography is becoming so mainstream that we begin to undervalue sex. Maybe that’s my Catholic upbringing talking, but there it is! I also think we should be a little wary of who we choose to represent us as spokespeople. I’ll take Tatchell over Lucas any day. Though, I agree, he is perfectly entitled to his view, which may indeed be correct. It isn’t (in my view) but in theory at least.
@Jeremy / Flamineo
There may well be other more qualified people to talk about the Middle East Crisis. I suspect Lucas given his ancestry and education give him more than a passing acquaintance with the issues of the Middle East crisis.
He has a first class law degree from a university in Moscow, has lectured at Yale and Stanford and debated at these universities and Oxford Union. He is clearly an intelligent man and his business is only one aspect of his life and attitudes.
He is a regular writer in the US LGBT media – where I suspect PN found this article originally.
He is an ardent campaigner against drugs and promoting safe sex. He also campaigns for LGBT rights.
Now, I am not a huge fan of porn and I recognise the oppression that the industry can cause.
If however, there was ever a porn manufacturer with integrity – this is the man.
Mmmh…
Yes Israel has good LGBT rights. That has very little baring on our judgement of the Palestine situation.
“He goes to Moscow and protests the government for forbidding Gay Pride. And then he doesn’t go to Israel, which just held yet another of the world’s most vibrant and festive Gay Pride celebrations, but protests if people want to hold a meeting there. Logic and consistency aren’t his strong suit.”
I see no contradiction here. One’s a boycott because of a country’s foreign policy, one’s an internal protest because of it’s domestic policy. Different situations, different tactics.
Exactly, just because Israel is considerably further advanced than its neighbours when it comes to LGBT rights doesn’t mean it’s above criticism when it comes to minority-ethnicity rights.
What are you talking about “minority-ethnicity rights.”?
They have full rights in Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel
Tell that to people on the wrong side of the wall.
.
(Please don’t think I have a black-and-white view of the situation in Israel, I’m fully aware of the fact that the state of Israel is in many ways more advanced than many of its neighbours.)
What more do they want? They voted in free democratic elections to vote in a terrorist government – terrorist as defined by the EU and US -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Political_violence_and_terrorism
they keep the people living in squalor and vow to kill every Jew on Earth.
But it’s all Israel’s fault right?
The black-red alliance is strong here.
@TrollfromDamascus
Most independent news outlets provide numerous examples of Israeli breaches of international law on human rights and UN conventions. Sure, there are breaches from Palestinians, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain and many others. That does not mean Israel’s actions are justified.
It also doesn’t mean Israel is an “Apartheid” state or committing “genocide”.
I never said Israel was commiting genocide
“Israeli breaches of international law on human rights and UN conventions”
Mistakes happen. If you’re asserting Israel consciously acts to destroy human rights, that requires extraordianry proof. Proof you and no one has.
I will provide some more evidence in the morning but off to bed now … there is immense evidence of flagrant breaches (not mistakes!) of human rights by Israel
Still waiting for your “evidence” of israeli human rights abuses…
@TrollfromDamascus
It has been posted – against one of your comments elsewhere
There has also been evidence from others castigating the Israeli human rights record.
No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.
Most people who do this are socialists who think Israel is a colonial project or Islamists who want a pan-Islamic continent.
“No indepently verified evidence exists, I’m sure. All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.”
Pure utter paranoia.
Over 150 nations condemned Israeli human rights
Many many respected (and some very right wing) journalists have raised concerns about and exposed Israeli human rights failures and breaches of international law.
Israel has breached multiple UN Security Council resolutions.
Yes there is a campaign against Israel and Israel has a right to defend itself but not at the expense of human rights. That results in a state becoming immune to the humanity of others.
“Pure utter paranoia.”
Paranoia? If asking for proof of your assertions of “grave systematic human rights abuses” is paranoid, so be it.
Show me some proof of systematic grtave human rights abuses.
@TrollfromDamascus
No I found your statement:
“All “evidence” is either exaggerated or fabricated to demonize Israel.”
to be demonstrably paranoid.
I and others have given you plenty of evidence on this and another thread yet you condemn it on the basis of meaningless quotes from one stateman and the Israeli constitution, when we all know human rights abuses would usually flout a constitution and there are plenty of comments of elder statesmen that say the entire opposite of the current secretary general.
I have given you some examples of evidence – whether them accept them or investigate them is entirely up to you.
I’m not going to give you repeated streams of news articles, amnesty articles, UN declarations, Foreign and Prime Ministerial criticism, UNICEF concerns, MSF concerns, etc etc but I could.
What’s demonstrable is the lack of proof for which you assert.
You linked to two BBC articles, one of which said Israel changed the law to stop torture of terrorists in custody, and one which said the “human rights abuses” amounted to bringing in a teenager’s parents while he was in custody.
Now you’re trying to say I’m a paranoid fanatic. Have you looked in the mirror lately?
BTW the Red Cross insists there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
@TrollfromDamascus
Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered, fine if thats what you want to do – but there are clear examples of violations of human rights by Israelis within those articles. I have never said everything the Israelis do is bad. There will be some good practice – and perhaps its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced (ie articles that criticise and compliment the Israelis at the same time).
You again misrepresent what I say – at no point have I called you a fanatic. Paranoid – yeah but your statement did genuinely cause me to have that concern.
I have reluctantly agreed to give you yet more evidence despite the fact you ignore or reject any evidence offered to you by anyone.
“Selectively quoting from the articles I have offered”? I read your articles and they were all either retracted or demonstrate Israel’s commitment to human rights.
“its demonstrative of my being balanced and having persepctive that I include articles that are balanced”
The thing is Stu, any reputable media will try to get the story right. The truth is there are no reports of systematic Israeli hujman rights abuses – because it doesn’t happen.
I think your threshold for “human rights abuses” is set incredibly low. Your pencil tip broke? “ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE!!!!”
@TrollfromDamascus
Oh I must have missed that utopia where all media aim to get things totally accurate and do not twist things to suit their agenda. What a naive world you occupy where journalists are honest and have integrity and Israel is a bastion for human rights.
You keep demanding evidence of me – now I shall demand you to prove the repudiation of the all of the stories I have given you, all the BBC news reports, all the comments in the State Department document, everything … prove it.
The thing is you dont see my sense of balance Israel isnt completely wrong – but it isnt completely right. Its accepting that where Israel falls down. Your propaganda will eventually fail.
My threshold of evidence is at the highest level – beyond reasonable doubt and I am also willing to be proved wrong, but again that must be beyond reasonable doubt. I have no doubt that Israel are good at LGBT rights, and general human rights for Jews. Their entire picture of human rights to non Jews
is appalling and discredited by multiple NGOs, other nations, journalistic outlets … and it is not my job to supply that information to you. I have supplied some.
I support Israel in many things but its laughable to credibly try and suggest that their record on human rights is whiter than white.
And there you have it Stu, at the end of every fanatic’s obsession with Israel is the assertion that Israel only respects the rights of Jews.
You’re a fantastic racist.
Nothing you link to shows what you purport it to show. I’ll tell you again from your own links:
Two years after the report was written, the Supreme Court banned the use of physical force in interrogations
The use of violent interrogation techniques is prohibited under Israeli and international anti-torture laws
Your “evidence”. Stop lying.
@Troll
The use of torture may indeed be banned by order of the judiciary but Israel does not investigate alelegations of torture – that seems all too convenient to me.
If I was anti Israel and and Jew (which I am not) then I would not support Israel for many of the good things they do.
The fact remains you see Israel as a (false) utopia and anyone who dares raise any criticism is lying, fabricating, obsessed or wrong.
Now, I ask you – which one of us looks obsessed there …. I would suggest you?
@Stu all I’m doing is reading your source material. None of it stacks up.
@Troll
In your opinion it doesnt stack up – you’re welcome to your fantasy world where that is the case – plenty including respected diplomats, politicians, journalists and some rabbis are very critical of Israeli human rights …
Your intransigence speaks volumes …
@Troll
Explain the quote below signed by over 20 rabbis:
“We are deeply saddened by the controversy that has grown up around the issuing of the report. We affirm your findings and believe you set up an
impeccable standard thatprovides strong evidence thatIsrael engaged in war crimes during the assaulton Gaza thatreveal a pattern ofcontinuous
and systematic assault against Palestinian people and land that has very little to do with Israel’s claim of security. Your report made clear the
intentional targeting of civilian infrastructures such as hospitals, schools, agricultural properties, water and sewage treatment centers and
civilians themselves with deadly weapons that are illegal when used in civilian centers.
This is the ugly truth that is so hard for many Jewish people to face. Anyone who spends a day in Palestinian territories sees this truth immediately.”
Are you seriously submitting a video of an condemnatory Rabbi as evidence of Israel’s “human rights abuses”?
For shame.
@Troll
I have not submitted any video …
So again you misrepresent me
The content to the article where 20 rabbis condemn Israeli human rights includes significant evidence from NGOs
You are disputing an apolitical peaceful NGO – shame on you
What a ridiculous collection of clichés from someone hardly free from the accusation that he has an axe to grind.
.
Though there’s a delicious irony in someone who makes his living by promoting outsize penises accusing the British for loving monuments!
You could argue it the other way, that because of his ancestry that he has a pertinent interest in the issues.
I don’t see either Michael Lucas as being correct in all of his arguments against Peter Tatchell’s opinion – but he does have some reasonable points to make such as the democratic decision making of the IGYLO, the membership of the IGYLO and the homophobia of the de Klerk and Botha regimes in South Africa.
“someone hardly free from the accusation that he has an axe to grind.”
What do you mean by that? Because he’s a Jew he “has an axe to grind”? That’s racist.
Is it? Why? Can you provide some sort of guarantee that his view is wholly disinterested?
Deary, saying because someone’s a Jew or an Arab or a gay then they can’t be neutral or hold certain views is generalising and a form of racism.
Do you have any evidence to indicate that Lucas himself would see himself as disinterested in this matter?
That’s a strawman tactic. The issue isn’t what Lucas says or thinks, it’s what you charge him as being because of his ancestry.
Michael Lucas is on record as saying that muslims should be barred from serving in the US Army, and on record as saying that the Arab world has contributed nothing to society.
Is such a racist the ONLY person PN could find to write a pro-Israeli response to Peter Tatchell’s article?
I don’t agree with that opinion but factually
1) Islam isn’t a race
2) What has the Arab world contributed to the world? Mass stonings of gays and theocracies?
No, Israel is a theocracy.
“What has the Arab world contributed to the world?”
This is class A ignorance. The Arab world basically invented our numeracy, and most of our fundamental
mathematical principals.
If you’re going to be a racist bigot, at least do us a favour and brush up on your history.
Fool.
Israel is NOT a theocracy, you ignoramus!
“Since Israel was founded by the Zionist movement as a Jewish state, and Judaism as a religion is often conflated Judaism as a nationality, Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government” – Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, American foreign policy analyst, editor and author who specializes in U.S./Middle East policy.
—-
While I admire your beautifully scripted “ignoramus” comment as an indicator of your level of education, I suggest you diversify your reading material a little before embarrassing yourself in public with such low-brow comments.
@Chuckster
Israel certainly was created as a theocracy.
It may have secularised a little since then – including law on freedom of religion and equality and LGBT issues and many other things.
However, there is still an element of theocracy in how it still legally permits prejudice in favour of Jews and particularly Orthodox Jews over others.
“Israel can have the semblance of guiding theocratic principles in its government”
Your own quote demonstrates Israel isn’t a theocracy. Britain’s “state religion” is CoE and in many ways our society and laws are based on Christianity.
Britain is, using your test, a theocracy.
“Israel is a theocracy. ”
BS. Israel is a democracy. Check its declaration of independence.
“The Arab world basically invented our numeracy, and most of our fundamental mathematical principals.”
Actually numbers were invented by Indians. I know a lot of you people on Pinknews hate Wikipedia because it shows you facts, take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system
Terry, I didn’t say I agreed with the remarks of Lucas. I wanted to know what the Arab world has given us. Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee.
@TrollfromDamascus
It is arguable that when a state permits and encourages prejudice on the grounds not only of one faith (Judaism) but also on the grounds of particular Orthodox elements of Judaism and that this permeates the decision making that this suggests the state is a theocracy.
Even the Israeli significant ally the USA in State Department published information on Israel acknowledges that there is legally endorsed prejudice against religions which are not Judaism and particularly Orthodox Judaism.
Hardly a crime against humaity is it.
@TrollfromDamascus
So a breach of human rights has to be a crime against humanity?
Now, if that is the Israeli states view on what constitutes human rights – then no wonder they continuallly flagrantly abuse them – they clearly don’t know what they are if they share your view …
More whining with no proof of anything from you.
@TrollfromDamascus
So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed?
You seem prepared to accept religious inequalities that the State department report by your comments that it is hardly a crime against humanity – I guess that depends on whether you are supported by the inequality or restricted by it.
For the record, despite your claims that I have not given you evidence (which is blatantly untrue) here is the report from the US State Department:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/nea/136070.htm
The report is balanced and arguably pro-Israeli but even the Israelis ally, the US recognise that there are significant breaches of human rights by Israelis and the IDF – it does recognise achievements by Israel which are fair and proportionate too. It also recognises failures by Hamas and others on Palestinian/Arab side of the conflict.
@Stu that’s the most ridiculous thing you’ve done yet. You take my link to the US State Dept’s report and claim it as your own source of evidence. As I said to you before, the report shows incidents of racism and discrimination – as it does for every country in the world, including Britain.
“So are you saying that the US State departments review of religious freedom in Israel is inaccurate? How is it flawed?”
I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You’re lying now. First you call me an “anti-Arab” racist and now you’re saying complete BS. Just stop it. It only shows that those who insist on Israeli “human rights abuses” are liars and fraudsters. All your bluff and bluster and not a single piece of evidence. Just give it up Stu.
@Troll
I didnt put words in your mouth, I merely interpreted what you said – if thats a misinterpretation I apologise, nonetheless it is a logical progression of what you said.
Failing to investigate any allegation of torture is not a trifling amount of racism common to the UK or other nations.
There are dozens of issues including detention without charge of hundreds of people simultaneously.
Again there are many areas of praise for Israel, but its false and a lie to suggest Israel is a beacon for human rights in general.
I’m not going to get into a schoolground tit for tat of who presented which evidence first – and because you gave the hyperlink first it was yours – or because I mentioned it before that it was mine. How juvenile. The fact is the evidence proves (who ever presents it) that Israel has good and bad practice in human rights.
@Troll
It seems you have double standards. I misinterpret you (it appears) and I am putting words in your mouth.
You quote me as saying something I havent and thats acceptable.
You refer to “brown skins”, I pick you up on the inappropriateness of this and you castigate me for calling you racist (yet I never have used that label).
If you are going to try and accuse me of things, at least try and make it factual. Although it seems you don’t like facts since you believe the fairy tale that Israel can do no bad.
@Stu you’ve decided to ignore facts and instigate a personal attack. What more can you expect from someone who refuses to fact-check but insist that what they know is “the truth”?
Give it up. You’ve been found out. Stop lying.
@Troll
With the greatest of respect – you have been personally attacking me throughout this thread and offensive – so trying to claim the high ground is laughable
@Troll
No matter how many times you try to convince yourself that I am lying will not make that lie true.
@Stu I only returned fire and called you nasty words when you began calling me names. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
You might not be actively lying but at the very least your leftwing politics are clouding your judgement. Your refusal to even read Wikipdia, The Times and Reuters because they don’t “fit” your belief system is worrying. It’s worrying because there’s people like you out there running around screaming “human rights abuse!” in regard to Israel and you might actually rub off on some people.
If you’re not actively lying you probably suffer from confirmation bias and/or grandiose delusions.
“Stop calling people a racist for asking simple legitimate question. It makes you look like a screaming banshee.”
You’re comment was barbed, do not insult my intelligence. You are racist. You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us”.
You make me sick.
@Troll
I shall leave it to other readers to decide who was offensive first … and which were justified. There are time stamps on the postings, and it will be clear that you have been repeatedly offensive to me and others throughout this debate and tirade of yours. You are the only one to resort to expletives. You accuse me of saying things I have not – you fabricate things I have said – you lie.
@Troll
There you go again – you have no idea of my politics. The party I support is not in opposition.
As for refusing to read the Times or Reuters … I have read The Times every day in the last seven bar one. The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there – if you make that up, how can I trust anything you say given your extreme Zionist bias?
When I was viewed by occupational health psychologist (routinely and compulsory for everyone in my field – happens annually due to the emotional trauma I have to encounter) there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement – so for you to diagnose grandiose views etc from a discussion thread is remarkable!
@Terry “You defend Israel on the premises the Arab world deserves what it gets, becuase “what did it do for us” You make me sick.
Slander. What more can you expect. All I did was ask what has the Arab world given us. You and seemingly no one else has given any examples. Numbers were a Hindu invention. How is that racist? Slanderous fool.
@Stu “The Times and Reuters have never been mentioned in this thread until you brought them up there”
The first mention of the Times was at 28 Jun 2011, 1:01am
“extreme Zionist bias”
WTF asking for proof of human rights abuses makes me an “extreme Zionist”? What planet are you living on?
“the extreme emotional trauma I have to encounter annually” – I think you’ve experienced too much trauma and need a holiday.
“there were no concerns expressed about any poor perceptions or lack of judgement” going by your other comments I think that’s code for there were concerns about your mental health.
@Troll
I never mentioned The Times. You fabricate yet again.
So again you resort to personal abuse (based without fact, evidence or logic) . This time to question my mental health. Always the sign of a some who is desperate in a debate to lower themselves to such tactics. Also, when you have never met the person – its not an opinion you could form one way or the other. A good indicator as to how you form your opinions and the strength of evidence you use to form your opinions.
Thanks for caring, but my mental health is fine thank you.
Well it’s only your ignorance to blame if you can not answer the second (racist) question…
But answering it validates the question so you have to be racist too. Stupid.
Well no one answered it.
You’d better get some knowledge about the world instead of spreading racism here…
F*** off calling me a racist. Tw*t.
Of course israel isn’t perfect. It does have its faults.
But it is a democracy, and it does uphold free speech and freedom of conscience for its citizens.
In Gaza, there is a plan to exterminate LGBT people in a way that wasn’t that dissimilar to the annihilation of the Jews in Germany only sixty years ago. Many, as we well know, escaped and went to Israel.
And it illegally occupies another country, and in those illegally occupied places a toxically racist Apartheid regime is in force.
The fact that LGBT people enjoy rigthts within Israel’s 1967 borders does not alter the Apartheid reality in East Jerusalaem and the West Bank.
I would rather have that than die by the slow strangulation method which is meted out in many islamist states. Apartheid? No, there is no apartheid.
“And it illegally occupies another country”
Israel left Gaza and the West Bank years ago.
“in those illegally occupied places a toxically racist Apartheid regime is in force. ”
You’re correct. Hamas – the democratically elected government of Gaza – is a toxically racist Apartheid regime, denying women, gays, Jews and everyone else equal treatment under the law.
Try to keep up with current affairs if you wish to engage in debate.
Facts are hard to come by with anti-Israel extremists who prefer rhetoric and lies over truth.
Thank God… Somebody who knows what they’re taking about! The Hamas regime is particularly cruel. I’d sooner be in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East.
@Stu “the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling”
You seem to be misinformed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel
You could say Israeli foreign policy doesn’t meet your approval but even in its engagements in Gaza it follows the best practice any army could ever hope to do, as Col. Richard Kemp states:
http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/06/13/former-british-armed-forces-commander-speaks-about-the-idf/
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw
@TrollfromDamascus
Israeli foreign policy certainly isnt fair and right (in my view). Its general human rights policy is also very concerning.
Israel remains the only nation to be a constant permanent agenda item for every meeting of the UN Human Rights Council – this speaks volumes to me. A vast majority of nations backed this.
A few other examples of the questionable status of Israeli human rights:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/un-human-rights-gaza-zeitoun
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10195838
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/637293.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7345025.stm
What’s your point? A few mistakes isn’t “genocide”. NATO accidently killed a few families last week. Britain, the US etc aren’t committing “ethnic cleansing”.
Yo nutters are obsessed with Israel and twist everything to fit your perverted ideology.
“Its general human rights policy is also very concerning.”
Do you bother to read links? Read the Wikipedia article on Israel’s commitment to human rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel
You’re talking out your butt.
I never said Israel was committing genocide.
To consider genocide being necessary before human rights abuses are occurring is a pretty low threshold of what is acceptable in any event.
If you read what I have said you will see I condemn both Israel and the Arab states and Palestinians. Israel are appalling on human rights but they are not alone.
I prefer to consider authoritative reports from the UN, Amnesty and other respected bodies and the international media rather than the suspect WIkipedia.
The problem is you say “the Israeli general level of respect for human rights being appalling” when this clearly isn’t the case.
You have no evidence for “human rights abuses”. If you mean racism, taht’s not the same as Apartheid and every country has racism problems.
Wikipedia is not a source. It is generally neutral and requires you to do some research instead of relying on some blogger feeding you “facts”.
Some sources from the Wikipedia page I linked to you:
Princeton University Press
International Human Rights in Context, Oxford University Press
Yale University
Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law
Yearbook of the International Law Commission
Israel Yearbook on Human Rights
United Nations General Assembly
The International Court of Justice
Transparency International
U.S. Department of State
Reporters Sans Frontieres
US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor
International Herald Tribune
Yet you’re under the impression Wikipedia is “suspect”.
I merely follow academic convention on regarding WIkipedia as suspect and a poor source of reference
You need to evaluate sources yourself.
You’re not authoring a thesis for peer review and citing Wikipedia as a source. Wikipedia is not a source. It takes its information from other sources.
I easily link to the sources cited in Wikipedia but it’s easier to link to one page with every source collected together.
Dismissing Wikipedia is BS.
Here is one academic journal view on Wikipedia
Wikipedia is blocked on the University website where I studied my masters
That’s just crazy! Probably too many people were citing Wikipedia as sources and not doing their work properly.
If you know how to use it – read the citations, check the veracity of it – Wikipedia is a very useful tool.
You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.20870/full
From the abstract:
“After surveying the various concerns that have been raised about the reliability of Wikipedia, this paper argues that the epistemic consequences of people using Wikipedia as a source of information are likely to be quite good. According to several empirical studies, the reliability of Wikipedia compares favorably to the reliability of traditional encyclopedias. Furthermore, the reliability of Wikipedia compares even more favorably to the reliability of those information sources that people would be likely to use if Wikipedia did not exist (viz., websites that are as freely and easily accessible as Wikipedia).”
Wikipedia does its utmost to be neutral and accurate.
Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
That is only one of the conclusions.
I for transparency gave the article but in its entirity it does raise areas for concern and caution with regards wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
Wikipedia itself accepts that it is not credible in itself.
You’re not using Wikipedia for academic citations. Read the sources if you want. If I linked to the articles sourced would you believe it then? Your anti-Wikipedia obsession is strange. I presume it’s because it shows facts contrary to your beliefs.
(correct comment placement)
“Michael Lucas is the most best-known gay porn producer and director in the United States and a columnist for The Advocate.”
He is a male prostitute from Moscow….. Shameful creature, that’s all….
His opinion has more coherance and evidence of understanding that you bowel movements
The fact that Michael Lucas is a Russian prostitute is not really the point.
The point is that Pink News got a known racist to write an article in response to Peter Tatchell’s article.
PN must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel if a bigot like Michael Lucas is the only person who they can find to defend Apartheid Israel.
“a known racist”
Trying to discredit someone who doesn’t agree with your views is a common tactic with political extremists.
Lucas certainly appears to have some prejudices – I doubt you could demonstrate they were racist (although please prove me wrong).
and I dont mean that I would be pleased if LUcas was racist before my words are twisted (sigh) …
I mean if I am wrong, please show me
Oh-ho! We talking from experience, you old dog Rich? Naughty boy, using prossies. Bad boy. Now come over here and I can spank you!
Peter Tatchell has a lifetime of defending human rights, not just gay rights.
Michael Lucas has a ‘lifetime’ of exploitation. This just might be good publicity for Mr Lucas?
While Mr Lucas needs to be corrected he doesn’t need to be given much attention.
Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest ‘apartheid systems’, that exist today.[1]
Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens.[2]
Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are:
* Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion).
* Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry).
* Kurds. Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria.
* Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania.
* Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves).
* Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces.
* Assyrians, are
Israel runs an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
That remains a fact.
No, Israel runs an occupation in the eponymous occupied territories. That may not be a nice thing, but it’s very different from an “apartheid” regime. Don’t use wrong words just because they conveniently have negative implications. Here, the anti Israel crowd begins to resemble the American Republican right — Israeli Apartheid is just about as meaningless to describe the situation in the territories as Obamacare is to characterize US health care legislation. Les extremes se touchent!
Well done Daniel. It’s easy for people to trump up charges of “Apartheid” to make a political point. They go way overboard though and try to delegitimize Israel as a country and say BS like “Israel isn’t a democracy”. They’re political extremists.
Part 2
—
* Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example.
* Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic.
* Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there’s great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups. Turkey’s policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as “foreigners” at the “moderate” Islamic supremacy of Turkey.
* All non-Msulims in ‘Islamic Apartheid state’ of S. Arabia.
* Asians [slaves!] in the Gulf Arab states.
* Al-Akhdam in Yemen.
* Gypsies in Jordan.
—
Islamic-Arab “Palestine” apartheid:
* Ahmadiyya Muslims are harshly persecuted in (Pakistan and in) the “Palestinian” Apartheid
And Israel is running an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Israel really has lost the arguement if there only defence is ‘Oh but they are bad as well’.
Israeli Apartheid cannot be ignored simply because of Arab problems.
Israel left Gaza years ago. The terrorist organisation Hamas won free democratic elections and rule Gaza with an iron Islamic fist.
There is no apartheid in Gaza except the Apartheid run by Hamas.
You’re lying.
If the situation in terms of access to Gaza, trade and ability to act as an independent state imposed by Israel on Gaza, is what you call free. Then your understanding of free is somewhat different to that of convention.
I said they won free elections. I agree access is restricted but it’s a neccessity for the time being see video.
@TrollfromDamascus
So “necessity” involves restricting freedom of liberty, freedom to trade, freedom of family life etc etc – all fundamental human rights ……..
Maybe if they stopped indiscriminately launching rockets into civilian towns every day they wouldn’t be under economic and travel sanctions… Just a thought. Worked for Gandhi.
Sanctions do not normally involve storming humantarian aid shipments, using phosphorus on the population of Gaza, attacking a UN school (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7814054.stm) etc etc
Israel have every justification to impose snactions and reasonable security controls. What Israel are doing is much beyond that and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
@Stu do you actually read the articles you link to? From your BBC “evidence”
“Update: In February 2009, the United Nations said that a clerical error had led it to report that Israeli mortars had struck a UN-run school in Jabaliya, Gaza, on 6 January killing about 40 people. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator in Jerusalem, said that the Israeli Defense Force mortars fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself. He said that the UN “would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school”. ”
Your invective about “storming humanitarian aid ships” ignores the terrorists on board wielding weapons. Very peaceful of them eh? You’re the only one bing disingenuous.
@TrollfromDamascus
Most merchant shipping particularly those that may transit certain areas of the Middle East and East Africa do carry firearms on board. In the heat of an attack by armed personnel and the panic of that, I would not be surprised if the firearms were drawn, were any fired – Israel never commented. Did the IDF identify themselves – Israel refused to comment. Were they in territorial waters, Israel were vague and Turkey argued they were in international waters.
As for the school – was the health centre also a clerical error, were the other schools mentioned also clerical errors?
What about the quote “Many claims cannot be verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a Supreme Court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory.” ?
Be that as it may it doesn’t demonstrate “crimes against humanity”. As with Libya when you attack terrorists they use human shields and launch rockets from schools and neighbourhoods. Civilians get caught up in war but if Hamas stopped trying to wipe out Israel at every turn Israel wouldn’t have grounds to attack them and nobody would die.
Peaceful resistance is the only legitimate form of protest if statehood is what Gaza wants.
You can’t blame Israel for defending itself and label me a racist for saying that.
@Troll
So multiple deaths on a vessel of humanitarian aid is not a significant concern or a breach of international law. Then your standard of morality must be very low!
@Troll
So you are going to ignore the other schools, the health centre, the rights of a humanitarian ship to bear arms in international waters when targetted by people who did not identify themselve, and then the killing of people on board, and the failure to investigate allegations of torture (surely there is something to hide with over 400 such allegations)?
Israel have done a lot of good – LGBT rights, a brilliant health system, a sophisticated democracy – but not everyone is treated fairly and equally and there is a lack of respect for international law
@Troll
I certainly wouldnt castigate you or deem you racist for saying Israel should be able to protect itself (but the same right should be afforded to humanitarian aid shipments suddenly stunned by unknown forces in international waters?).
I would question some (not all) of the methods of the IDR in “defending” Israel.
I would argue that both Israel and Arabs could work more constructively to find solutions to the conflict.
You can call me a liar but just in the US State department document alone there are dozens of breaches of international law either evidenced or suspected (and not investigated by Israel). Some serious, some less so … thats fact and calling me a liar doesnt change it.
It also doesnt change my opinion that Israel have done some great things on human rights, and other areas but they do commit some acts with are flagrant breaches of human righrs.
Stu I’m sorry but I have to agree with everyone else on here. You’re an ass.
Final time: flotilla raid was legal; flotilla illegal.
http://reut.rs/fAvIWO
Get a grip.
@Troll
I dont think you find every commentator was either against me or for you – again you misrepresent … strange how you keep doing that
Turkey and Ireland and USA have all vouced concerns about the continued blocade of Gaza
Numerous reports have indicated the event took place in international waters
Turkey argues the force used was disproportionate even if the blocade were conceived as justifiable
Why were so many killed including some who were unarmed.
It also doesnt deal with the issue or torture investigations, phosphorus, cluster bombs, the attack on the Gaza health centre and mroe
@Stu you can’t keep saying “there’s evidence for and against”. The fact is the flotilla was illegal, the blockade legal. Saying that Reuters, The Times, legal scholars and everyone who’s ever looked at it are all liars is madness. Using Turkey – that known bastion of freedom – as evidence is pure nonsense. I’m sorry but you’ve shown how out of touch with reality you are.
@Troll
They said the blockade of Gaza was legal
They said the intention of entering Israeli waters was illegal
They didnt say the boarding of the vessel was in Israeli waters
They didnt say the shooting of the crew was appropriate
You are pushing the boundaries to say that a legal blockade means justification for boarding a vessel in international waters and killing a number of people
You ignore many of my other comments, have racist undertones (brown skin, barbed comments, assuming someones second language is English and making snide comments….)
You falsify things I have said ….
Its clearly obvious for all to see, who is wrong here … and its clearly not me
@Stu “They didnt say the shooting of the crew was appropriate” in the US State Dept report you told me to read, it mentioned that
The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force.
@Stu “You ignore many of my other comments”
If I do I apologise the system here is quite disordered and gets bloated quickly, making it easy to lose track of what’s going on.
However, you claim I “have racist undertones” because of this post where I say “Your implication is Israel degrades and humiliates brown people as a matter of course” and is decidely anti-racist; for if Israel was systematically dehumanizing brown people because of their skin that would be awful. However, racism is not apartheid and racism is not “human rights abuses”.
Saying this does not make me a racist.
@Troll
Well, with respect the Turkel Commission was far from independent. It was commissioned by the Israeli government with a former Israeli supreme court justice, a Major from the IDF, a former Israeli foreign office official and two Israeli professors of law. The supposedly independent observers were a former Canadian military judge and former Northern Ireland first minister David Trimble (both widely acknowledged as friends of Israel and who were both told before the hearings that they may be prevented from having access to some documents and whilst able to question all witnesses some answers may not be given in the observers presence – hardly transparency!).
The commission had limited investigative and subpoena powers (therefore may not have heard all evidence) and did not meet recognised UN or international standards for a commission. The commissions chair threatened to resign because of the structure of the commission was too narrowly defined. The Israeli High Court of…
… of Justice itself severely criticized the make up and remit of the commission and its ability to respect natural justice.
Relevant NGOs who were interested in the event were prevented from giving evidence. The Turkel commission has limited if any credibility as acknowledged by some involved.
I would therefore suggest Israel clearly breached human rights of those on board.
@Troll
I do not recognise the comments you attribute to me as mine.
As far as racism not being a breach of human rights … well depending on whether you are on the receiving end or the delivery end would depends on your perspective, I guess … regardless – racism is not right!
Part 3
—
* Descendents of slaves of the Bedouins are still stigmatized by racist “Palestinians”.
* Christians are discriminated, persercuted against [especially since Y. Arafat's Islamization of Bethlehem], by Palestine authority and Hamas regime.
—
From anti-Jewish Apartheid:
- The Arab racist apartheid against the Jews attempted genocide ever since the 1920s, (Like Mufti of “Palestine” at his incited massacres, and Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood who called simply ‘to kill Jews’).
- Chased out a Million Jews in the late 1940.
- Has boycotted and demonized [every logical defensive action is branded "racist"] the Jewish democratic-free-equal-to-all state only because it’s the “other”. It is neither Muslim nor purely Arab.
- The Arab racist world continues to play with Arab-Palestinians (grandchildren of Arab immigrants[3]) like ping-pong against Israel.<A HREF="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID
And Israel occupies an Apartheid regime in illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
So what is your point?
No SteveC Israel left Gaza years ago. hamas runs it now and they vow to destroy Israel and kill every Jew on Earth.
Stop lying.
Part 4
—
like ping-pong against Israel.[4]
—
AND THE BEACON OF APARTHEID HAS THE AUDACITY TO CHARGE MULTI-RACIAL ISRAEL’S BEAUTIFUL DEMOCRACY [THAT OFTEN GIVES PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FOR ITS ARABS OVER JEWS[5]|[6]|[7]|[8]|[9]|[10]] WITH THIS TERMINOLOGY?
THE ARAB DECEPTIVE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THAT ACTS AS IF ARAB-ISLAMIC GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN IS NOT OBVIOUS TO DETERMINE ISRAEL’S EXTRA SECURITY MEASURES [INCLUDING AN ANTI-TERROR / ANTI-MASSACRES WALL].
And Israel operates an Apartheid regime in illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
So what is your point?
Part 5
–
As if we don’t know the ‘Arab oil lobby’s power’ over the UN and other major international organizations and some African officials to go along with the Arab propaganda.
Despite some non-Arabs who jump on this wagon out of: ignorance, of confusion complex, or of sheer bigotry, never forget, that this entire “apartheid, racism” label was invented by Arab racists ganging up in the UN since 1975.
Even promoter of the apartheid-slur J. Carter admitted on CNN: “I recognize that Israel is a wonderful democracy with freedom of speech and equality of treatment under the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis.”[11]
Radnom fact: Israel is a secular system, its laws are based on the Ottoman and British-Mandate rulings that proceeded the reestablishing of the State in its historic place.
And Israel operates an Apartheid regime in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
So what is your point?
Part 7
—
Last but not least:
Isn’t it true that the anti-Jewish “apartheid” slur (Treat the ‘A’ word like the ‘N’ word, jpost)[16] campaign is: A) to demonize Jews and B) to hide the real apartheid practice by the Arab-Islamic world?[17]
—
A tiny ironic question, What would the bigoted: Arab-Islamic-Palestine-Apartheid regime do with the dreadful “queers-for-palestine”?
And how does this relate to the Apartheid regime Israel controls in the illegally occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem?
@ LocoLoca
You’re entire argument is based on the “devil you know” complex, and is flawed. Just becuase the Arab world has less of a human rights record than Israel, this is not exonerate Israel, is simply shows up how desperate you are to defend an aggressive land-grabbing state. To use dictatorships in the Arab world as your benchmark to exonerate Israel of its internationally recognised crimes is pathetic.
Israel is in violation of most of the 65 UN resolutions against it.
Ironic so many here are blindly defending the rights of Israel to persecute other nations, and invade their land, given the circumstances that led to the creation of the state in the first place – pressed becomes the oppressors – a tragic and sad reality.
At least have the guts to look at the situation from a historical and unbiased reality, not this desperate bull.
What has Michael Lucas done in the UK exactly? Who is he?
I’d rather listen to Thatchell thanks. Great work Pink News. Not.
He’s sold some DVD’s of himself shagging ‘identical’ twins.
“Anybody who compares the situation of Arab citizens of Israel to SA apartheid – or, even more stupidly, the situation in the occupied territories to the systematic exploitation of the majority by a small white elite – is simply whitewashing the horrors of apartheid.”
I think you mean “the abused citizens of Palestine” – and I think it’s you who is holding the pail of whitewash.
They have their own government, the known terrorist regime of Hamas. Palestinians voted in democratic election to elect the terrorists Hamas whose stated goal is to murder every Jew on Earth.
Hamas runs Gaza. How is Israel to blame for what Hamas does to its own people?
Knowing what happens in Gaza is difficult as Israel will neither allow foreign journalist in but also censors international media broadcasts from Israel
lifelong porn star has a go at lifelong gay rights activist over gay rights. You can’t make this shlt up. Or can you? Does anyone really believe that Lucas took some time out to write this. Mind you it must have taken all of 2 minutes. I’m no fan of palestine. But I’m not fan of Israel either. Lucas should stop trying to be a politician. He’s made his bed, and he should lay in it with no clothes on getting fuked senseless. I might not agree with everything he says, but I’d rather listen to tatchell any day when it comes to gay or human rights issues.
in other words he should stick to what he does best, but then again he is good at licking (isreal’s) an ass too
tbh, couldn’t care less for seeing him doing anything. he looks like barbie’s ken to me.
@Eddy Two
I also don’t agree with everything Peter Tatchell says – although probably the majority of it – although I think Palestine has as many wrongs on its side as Israel do. I do think Lucas has some good points he makes and as others have commented he has previously spoken at the Oxford Union and Ivy League debating chambers. He is not a gay porn bimbo by any shred of the imagination.
But he is most certainly a blatant racist.
He believes that muslims should be barred from serving in the US military; he ignores modern mathematics when he claims that Arab society has never offered anything to society; and when he claims that Palestinians are terrorists first and people second he is straying into very dangerous racist territory.
The prostitution game may be more financially rewarding in the US; but surely if he means what he says about Israel he would want to live in Israel?
And even worse Pink News do not mention Michael Lucas’ history of vicious racism when they allowed him to write this column,
I’ll say it again – Pink News must really have been scraping the bottom of the barrel if the ONLY person they could find to write an article in defence of Israel was a racist Russian prostitute.
@SteveC
His opinion of Muslims in the US military is wrong. Islam isnt a race, so I wouldnt see it as a discrimination based on ethnicity or race but certainly an act of religious discrimination which is wrong.
I think the argument about modern mathematics is a red herring here – I am sure we have all exaggerated in argument and debate using phrases such as “The Tories have nothing to offer”, when in fact they do have some credible points – and that was the context of that particular argument (in my view).
I do think his terrorism argument is one that can be suggested to either side – so in this particular issue I would tread cautiously on the use of the word terrorism except perhaps suicide bomb attacks on buses in Haifa or Tel Aviv where its obvious. Equally you could argue some Israeli action is terrorism for and on behalf of the state.
As for is he feels this way about Israel he would want to live there. I love and support New Zealand, but I dont live there.
@SteveC
People can do things we think are wrong (or even be sure of being wrong sometimes) but still hold right opinions on other issues.
I think Tony Blair was wrong to invade Iraq and that it was arguably a crime against international law. I think he did a great many other good things such as his involvement in the Northern Ireland peace process and introducing legislation equalising the age of consent.
So Lucas may have religious prejudices, he may have other wrong opinions and some may find his career unpalatable – but none of these things mean he is incapable of reasoned arguments on some of these or other issues.
isralel today is what south africa was before 90′s
That’s the most disingenuous statement possible to make against Israel.
and was the Warsaw ghetto a model used by israel to built wall around palestinian areas?
Comparing Israelis to Naz*s tops off your previous statement.
Many countries have walled borders – the US with Mexico for example.
Egypt has opened its border with Gaza.
Your comparisons are redundant.
you really think people on this forum r such idiots, comparing mexico with palestine tops off ur intelectual capabilities, i would even go futher in saying that jews in hitlers pre 1939 germany had much better than todays palestinians in warsaw style ghettos, after all hitlers germany was equally democratic country even by today standarts
It’s clear you’re an idiot.
another intelectual gem from troll, in absence of valid arguments we get monosylabic insults from him
“another intelectual gem from troll, in absence of valid arguments we get monosylabic insults from him”
Indeed. Its all he can do when offered an conflicting opinion. Lets see if the paranoia follows, as is typical of an unbalanced mind.
@Terry
The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good).
I am arguing that some of its record is not good and that this can not be ignored and the good should not be considered in isolation from the bad.
It seems unless you toe the line and agree 100% cast iron without reservation with Trollfromdamascus that he will be abusive and undermine you with arguments that you havent made.
Agreed, Stu. He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him, and prefers a school yard insult as a response. Its his way or no way, it seems. Lucky for us he has picked a name like “Troll” to alert us to his emotive insults in lieu of a rational argument. I’m guessing he has a lot of issues to resolve, ones that won’t be resolved with his blind bias on a gay site.
@Terry, telling someone to “Fcuk off” and saying they have “an unbalanced mind” is what initiates name-calling in my defence.
“He is adept at ignoring any evidence presented to him”
BS. All evidence you presented I countered with evidence – as is the case here. Note how you disregard the links to Goldstone refuting his own report and instead say I “blindly defend one point of view without any consideration for the facts”.
@Stu “The strange thing is the vehemence of his arguing given that I am not disagreeing with some of his argument (that some of Israel’s human rights are good).”
That’s not my argument. Look here for my argument and stop ganging up with that horrible cretin Terry.
Asking for proof then when provided ignoring the proof and calling me a “a bigoted biased prejudiced and uneducated fool”.
A man is judged by the company he keeps…
@Trollfromdamascus
If your argument is so sophisticated that you have to condemn me for saying things I havent, fail to consider significant evidence I give (such as the lack of credibility of the Commission and the false information you presented about Israeli ambulance) and then become offensive – to be frank you don’t debate, you dont have an open mind and frankly how can I believe you with that sort of evidence
Israel is not a democracy period.
It might be a beacon for gays but that does not make it a better country in general.
@David
I agree that Israel is generally not a good country.
It is a beacon for LGBT people but its stance and approach to freedoms and human rights in general is astoundingly bad.
Equally, Palestine and many of the surrounding Arab states have as bad (and sometimes worse) records on general human rights and certainly worse on LGBT issues specifically.
We should not measure the humanity of a nation or people by how they treat LGBT people alone – although that should form part of the assessment.
As for Israel being a democracy – in a sense it is, but in how it behaves – it is far from democratic.
I know you hate Wikipedia because it shows facts you don’t agree with but truth is truth.
Israel is not “astoundingly bad” in its approach to human rights. Equality for all regardless of race, sex or religion is at the core of Israel’s constitution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty
“The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty.
There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person as such.
All persons are entitled to protection of their life, body and dignity.”
Saying otherwise in the face of reality shows how out of touch and obsessed you are to demonstrate Israel as a demonic entity. I amgine you’re a hit in the mosques.
*imagine
Actions speak louder than words.
For example why other religions are not allowed to teach their religion to jews in Israel? This would not happen if it was a democracy…
That’s the most insane thing I think I’ve heard. Got any proof or more wild accusations designed to delegitimize Israel/Jews.
@TrollfromDamascus
Try reading the USA States departments review of freedom of religion in Israel, that endorses Davids views – I agree it is ridiculous, but it is the way Israel are operating and its an abuse of human rights.
@Stu I read the report and it doesn’t mention schools only teaching Judaism. It does say
“Israeli Arab private religious schools are considered among the best in the country”
Although most receive less funding than normal state schools. I think your criteria for “human rights abuses” is set too low.
You can pick entries from the report which support Israel, that is true.
However there is much in the report that does not paint Israel in a good light and demonstrates the significant improvements that Israel need to make.
Such quotes include “There were reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious belief or practice. Relations among religious groups were often strained. “, “During the year NGOs filed numerous complaints alleging that security forces tortured or abused Palestinians”, “he NGO Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) reported on the lack of investigations of torture allegations, noting that, since 2001, not one investigation had resulted from more than 600 complaints of torture” and “The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; while the government generally respected these rights, in practice there were some restrictions”. These are just some examples.
@Stu the report on Britain is just as bad. Isolated instances of prejudice and generalised racism don’t make Israel or Britain a “human rights abusing nation”. Get a grip and put things in perspective.
@Troll
Where does the report on Britain say that the UK authorities have never investigated a single allegation of torture?
@Stu you mean the lack of investigation into white phosporous? Fine. But you extrapolate and exaggerate that into “human rights abuses” contrary to fact. From your own source of US State Dept:
“the authorities investigated credible allegations of inhumane conditions…the government has effective mechanisms to investigate and punish abuse and corruption…the government investigated and prosecuted several senior political figures for alleged misconduct”
And as for your flotilla nonsense:
“the IDF investigation into the May 31 events concluded that the use of live fire was justified, although it criticized organizational and intelligence failures for not being prepared for the level of violence committed by some of the flotilla’s passengers. The Turkel Commission, appointed by the government on June 14 as an independent public commission of inquiry with international observers, concluded that the blockade was legally imposed and enforced according to international law; it found no instance of excessive use of force.
How about the Palestinians?
“The PA and Israel took steps to address and investigate allegations of abuses related to the 2008-09 Operation Cast Lead conflict; however, NGOs criticized Hamas for failing to investigate abuses adequately.
The odd lack of investigation is meaningless
@Troll
The lack of investigation of any of hundreds of allegations of torture is hardly the “odd lack of investigation”
You keep coming back at me with – the report says this good thing and that good thing – and it does. Thats part of my point, I want Israel to do good things. Part of doing that is recognising where it isnt doing as good as it could or should be. Failling to investigate 400-600 (depending on which report you read) allegations of torture means someone high up in Israeli circles has decided those investigations will not occur. Thats failing to ensure transparency, legal redress and protection. Its a serious breach of human rights to torture (I know Israeli law does not permit it) but hundreds of allegations where no investigation has occurred causes concern.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Turkish-Ships-Join-International-Aid-Flotilla-to-Gaza-Strip-95143144.html
@Stu until you provide links of academic or verifiable quality you’ve proved nothing. I’m sorry but you’re a rubbish debater.
That link was posted before I replied.
All it says is ships joined a flotilla. I really think you don’t know what quialifies as appropriate information. http://reut.rs/fAvIWO
I’m sorry but I now realise you’re completely retarded.
@Troll
And now you show yourself for who you are an offensive name calling person who tries (unsuccessfully) to manipulate comments made to suit his agenda.
You are the one who has been offensive, resorted to expletives, and misrepresented whats been said by others repeatedly. You have no shred of credibility in debate.
Ignoring the facts, links, news reports and evidence again are Stu? What a surprise.
The thing is you say you accept the State Department report. YOu say you accept independent media reports. You say you accept many things – but when they say things you dont like all you do is grasp onto the bits you like in the other reports …
Its clear and plain for anyone to see
Words are easy … action doesnt follow in terms of human rights on a consistent basis
@David Israel is a democracy and is about as democratic as France, Cyprus and India.
Democracies can still commit human rights abuses.
They can but Israel hasn’t. By your criteria of “human rights abuses” every time a black man is called a bad word Britain is guilty of “systematic human rights abuses” and a pariah state. I think you’re obsessed with Israel. Why?
Your don’t like me misinterpreting what you say, so show some decency and don’t twist what I say.
I have never used the phrase systematic human rights abuses – thats your phrase.
I have never used the phrase pariah state about Israel.
If I was obsessed that Israel was bad, then I would not acknowledge the good it has done, and present information that both condemned and criticized Israel. Nor would I condemn Hamas, Arab states and Palestine.
Its clearly you who are obsessed because you refuse to see what anyone with an open mind can see
I’m so open minded I actually read the links you give me and see the facts contained within them or do some research and find opposing views. I’m the only person who uses evidence to back up what I say. Please use facts when you speak not rhetoric.
You are so biased and fail to see perspective that any one saying anything contrary to you is either inferior (a tad arrogant there), lying, mistaken or you claim they said something they didnt, or you twist their words or you throw abuse.
Now, I dont think you can deny I have thrown a lot of evidence at you now. You remain instransigent and come back with wishy washy comments like its just a few (400-600) failure to investigate (or TORTURE), its a mistake, its hardly a crime against humanity – however you try to minimise these errors and significant ones they are – they are breaches of human rights and paint Israel in a very poor light
@Stu every piece of evidence you “threw at me” contradicted what you thought it said. Either you’re stupid or deliberately misleading.
@Troll
I deliberately choose some evidence that is grey – this crisis is not a black and white situation … and Israel is not blameless – no matter how you try and make an apple appear an orange – it will always be an apple. Israel have abused human rights and that is internationally seen to be true. deny it, but it doesnt change the facts
You’ve yet to provide one piece of evidence to demonstrate “human rights abuses”. Racism is one thing but human rights abuses is something entirely different. I don’t think you know what “human rights abuses” means and by saying Islamic schools receiving less funding than state schools is “a crime against humanity” cheapens genuine human rights abuses.
@Troll
Its impossible even with cast iron evidence to prove someone or some nation did something bad if the audience you are trying to convince has two perceptions i) that the person/nation who did something wrong, never could and ii) that anyone suggesting that the did something bad is an enemy of that person/nation
Even with convictions in the ICCt against Israel, or hundreds of resolutions in the security council against Israel (Oh there are …) you don’t accept it.
@Stu you’ve probably gotten the wrong end of the stick with me. I’m far closer to your point of view than you suspect. I see Israel’s treatment as part of the “new anti-Semitism” and broadly agree with the US State Dept’s definition of anti-Semitism:
“to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism…When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel’s actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and N*zis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz — this is anti-Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel…When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba and Syria, is ignored;
@TrollfromDamascus
Ok, there are some things we can agree on – and I suspect there would be some things we could agree on easier in a face to face debate rather than some of the difficulties of message boards (as entertaining (and at times informative) as they are).
I agree condemnation of Israel can be overplayed (not always).
I agree the use of the holocaust or N@z!sm in debate does not help either side in the conflict and does not achieve a good understanding – although it is imperative to remember it because of the historical influence it plays on regional mindsets and informs the actions of some.
I agree other parties to the conflict have carried out horrendous acts against Israel and Israelis.
I agree there are other horrific human rights abuses elsewhere globally eg Darfur, Uganda, China, Iran, Kashmir etc etc and they deserve condemnation and international vigilance too. (Although that does not mean the Middle East crisis should not be observed or commented upon by …
… the international community.
The one thing I profoundly disagree with you though is that there is legitimate criticism of Israel and some of that is in the form of arguable human rights abuses.
…when Israel’s Magen David Adom, alone among the world’s ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross — this is anti-Semitism.”
read more here
The ICC is part of the problem. It’s why the only evidence of human rights abuses I will ever believe is independent corroborated accounts made by disinterested parties. Amnesty falls short of this.
So forgive me if I refuse to accept third-hand accounts of “genocide” and 4,000 UN resolutions against Israel because racism is alive and well and those truly opposed to it are slandered here and elsewhere.
@TrollfromDamascus
As a health care professional in the ambulance service (I am a paramedic practitioner to answer a question you posed on a previous thread), I will check what I can from international ambulance journals etc about Magen David Adom – I have heard of the service but not its claim to seek to be a member of the International Red Cross. Although to be frank, apart from the Red Cross itself (ie British Red Cross), I do not believe any ambulance service in the UK is a member of the IRC (I am not 100% on that and will check), but that would not make this discrimination on the basis it is the only ambulance service (but if there are other reasons it may be discrimination).
I hear what you are saying about Amnesty – but I am sure you will accept that their reports on other human rights abuses internationally eg Cambodia, Guantanamo Bay, Darfur have been accurate (so why should Israel be different?).
I accept there are frustrations from Israel about UNHRC atittudes – but…
… the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part.
The problem is also that by enforcing security in what is (arguably – although arguably not) a draconian manner – then this means many people may be seen to have human rights withdrawn from them. You could argue if that security was not there the Jewish people could potentially lose human rights – but then we end in stalemate and some people still lose rights.
The lack of transparency (sometimes disguised as transparency) of Israel in its commissions and media restrictions particularly its censoring of international media and refusal to allow journalists to enter Gaza makes it completely understandable why Israel is seen with suspicion and derision.
@TrollfromDamascus
According to Magem David Adom’s own website they are members of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent since prior to 2006
http://www.mdais.com/316/3555.htm
The star of David in red colours is not accepted by the International red cross but the Geneva convention was altered to make a third emblem (red crystal) that Israel or other nations could use if required but did not prevent the red star of David being used in Israel.
Whilst UK ambulance services support the British Red Cross and receive support from them – they are not members of the IRC
In all sincerity, you should be congratulated for being a paramedic. I apologize for having a laugh at you earlier.
I don’t know much about the Red Cross issue, from what I gather Israel isn’t allowed to use the Star of David wheras the Red Cross and the Red Crescent are allowed to be used. It sounds like a small issue.
Now to Amnesty. Just because Amnesty can be seen to be neutral in one situation doesn’t mean it’s neutral in all situations. Indeed, holding rallies against Israel and inviting guest speakers who openly call for nuclear attacks on Israel immediately raises questions over Amnesty’s neutrality.
I hear what you say about journalists being refused entry to Gaza and find it suspect.
“the vast amount of issues from the UN,, NGOs and others does tend to suggest that some of these reports condemning Israel must be accurate at least in part.”
I agree with that, but it obviously isn’t the case that every report of “human rights abuses” is true – given the overwhelming hostility towards Israel and the biases of NGOs.
A lot of the blame has to go to Gaza itself. Compare it to the West Bank – no problems there at all. Why? The West Bank has the PA in charge – not terrorists. Gaza has Hamas in charge – terrorists throwing hundreds of rockets across the border every year.
If they renounced terror their cause will probably win very quickly.
@Trollfromdamascus
I am pleased at last that you recognise that there are some human rights abuses by Israel.
Whilst I would agree that Hamas being leaders in Gaza has the ability to cause concern (and particularly for Israelis) – I do wonder whether Israel should consider the experience of Sinn Fein in N Ireland (they were regarded with similar suspicion to Hamas in the past).
I wonder what you mean by “finding it suspect” that journalists have been refused entry to Gaza. Are you meaning that journalists and governments are being inaccurate in what they are saying? Even Israels strong ally the US agree that journalists are denied access to Gaza and states that throughout Israel foreign journalists are subject to censorship.
@Trollfromdamascus
Thanks for your kind words about my profession – although, thats not why I do it – I enjoy it and find it a challenge.
I do not think all NGOs are biased. I agree there can be criticism of Amnesty – that does not mean (particularly when they have been seen to be accurate in many issues globally) that what they say in every instance in Israel is incorrect – in fact, I would argue there is a sustainable case in much of what it says.
@Trollfromdamascus
I agree with you that not every allegation of human rights abuses against Israel will be true or fully true. Due to the emotions, anxieties and bad feeling (to underestimate it!) there is a likelihood that some allegations will either be fabricated or in some cases exaggerated. Equally, as you have already agreed some claims will be true
It’s always funny when ageing sexworkers trying to play smart with all the money in their pockets. How dare m.l. criticise Peter Tatchell with his baseless biased propaganda? All those years Peter were constantly fighting for human rights he spent with f…ing for money. m.l. is the last person whose opinion matters in this issue…
Michael Lucas makes good ‘twin p0rn’ however.
Twin porn comes from Lukas Ridgeston at Bel Ami, not Michael Lucas. Get your porn references right before you start throwing them around.
And yet Mr Lucas chooses not to LIVE in Isreal. A good record on Gay rights mean nothing if overshadowed by a very poor record in so many other areas.
Peter Tatchell is a tiresome, anachronistic relic. How I wish he would simply go away or at the very least, just shut up.
Tatchell is typical of the Left in this country. He sided with the vile and violent Muslims when he called for East London Pride to be stopped. Once again, as a cliched Leftie, he is opposed to anything to do with Israel.
Come on Peter, admit the truth – you are a self-hating Jew and your true agenda along with the rest of the socialists in this country is the destruction of Israel even if it means getting into bed with the Muslims who would have no hesitation in killing you because you are both gay and Jewish.
Since when has Peter Tatchell become Jewish?
The fundamental point to make against all of you who support a boycott of Israel is: why always only Israel. Yes, Israel has flaws, but they are certainly not greater than the flaws of its neighbours. Yet it is only Israel that you peoople want to boycott. Why? Why should we not see it as something positive that a meeting is held in Israel where there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss the Israeli-arab conflict with the people who are most affected by the conflict? The BDS-movement is nothing but a racist, dogmatic and bullying movement and should not be allowed to prevent international queer alliances to be made across ALL borders.
1) That Lucas makes adult films does not disqualify him from speaking out on any issue he likes. Trying to delegitimize him for this is just an argument ad hominem.
2) Israel is a democracy with a concern for the human rights of all its citizens. But, Israel is a State, and the foremost responsibility of any state is to protect its citizens. There are walls and checkpoints because the Arabs carry out attacks against men, women and children on buses, cafes, and in their homes. They launch rockets into towns from Gaza. If there were no attacks on civilian targets by Arabs, there would be no checkpoints, separation wall, etc.
3) Ask yourself: if the Palestinians were to unilaterally lay down their rockets and their suicide bombs today, and seek to live in peace with Israel, what would happen? And, on the other hand, what if the Israelis unilaterally dismantled checkpoints and security barriers, what would happen?
Israel has a better human rights record than any of its neighbors. At no point in history, has there ever been a liberal democratic state in the Middle East — except for Israel. Of all the countries in the Middle East, Israel is the only one where the LGBT community enjoys even a small measure of equality.
In Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, and Syria, homosexual conduct is punishable by flogging, imprisonment, or both. But homosexuals there get off pretty lightly compared to their counterparts in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, who are put to death. Israeli homosexuals can adopt, openly serve in the army, enter civil unions, and are protected by exceptionally strongly worded ant-discrimination legislation. Beats a death sentence. In fact, it beats America.
Everyone knows that what happened and is still happening in Darfur is genocide, whether or not the UN and the Arab League will call it such.
There has been a mass exodus from Darfur as the oppressed seek safety. They have not had much luck. Many have gone north to Egypt — where they are treated despicably. The brave make a run through the desert in a bid to make it to Israel. Not only do they face the natural threats of the Sinai, they are also used for target practice by the Egyptian soldiers patrolling the border. Why would they take the risk?
Because in Israel they are treated with compassion — they are treated as the refugees that they are – and perhaps Israel’s cultural memory of genocide is to blame. The Israeli government has even gone so far as to grant several hundred Darfurian refugees citizenship. This alone sets Israel apart from the rest of the world.
…and you call it apartheid?
Following its age-old tradition, world opinion blames the Jews, and this time I happen to share that world opinion. This festering wound would never have existed had Israel not waived its sacred right to kill those who are trying to kill it. It is as simple as that.
You would never see the Spanish government in peace talks with the leaders of the ETA — the British government would never negotiate with Thomas Murphy, Russian PM Putin with Chechen Basaev. And if President Obama were to sit down and talk about peace with Osama Bin Laden, the world would view this as insanity. But Israel can do the exact same thing — and earn international praise in the process.
The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them.
The so called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a “nation” — or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
Michael Lucas is in his style. It is easy to see that most of the comments in his support here are from him. Real Gay Activists do not have a job. They just do not have time for that. Peter Tatchell is committed 24/7 to gay rights and human rights. Lucas is committed to earn money on porn, he is not doing it for fun, he is doing it for the sake of earning $$ and some time, he spend 5 minutes to support Israel’s policy and bash the muslims. Lucas loves Israel, but after all, he prefers to live in New York where he does not risk for his life like those who leave in Israel. if that is not a coward… I even find rather insulting from Pinknews to put Lucas in front of Tatchell. This is a different level. Lucas is so committed to gay rights that he never managed to support the LGBT community in Israel with donations. For someone who earned his fortune on the back of the gay community I find it rather disgusting. It just shows the man. He is here to advertise his name and his porn.
@Mark
I presume some of that is aimed at me. Well I am not Michael Lucas – having some of his income would be very pleasant.
I don’t support all his views – but I do support his right to air them and for PN to publish them. There are very much wrongs on the side of Israel but also on the side of Arab nations, the Palestinians and some of the international bodies. Its complex and will take some very wise people to resolve.
Its either comedy on your part or low level paranoia to assume that people supporting Lucas are actually Lucas.
rubbish… this article comes from the man who filmed a gay porno in the ruins of an arab home which was demolished during the israeli bombardment of 1948… this makes me sick… the main problem is co-operating with a government that is defying international law and several UN resolutions and ICJ court rulings.. no matter what he sasys about gay rights in israel ( which are progressive ) the government there operates and apartheid regime
“Peter was there. He should know.” Yes, he should and he does. What are the credentials of Michael Lucas?
In seeing the Louis Theroux documentary I had a u-turn on Israel, there is a lot of good that goes on there but they seem to have a problem they are refusing to acknowledge with the behaviour of some of their citizens.
The issue is that Israel isn’t a neutral country to host the event, it might well be the most tolerant place on the planet but it’s still excluding people. The other side of it is that the LGBT community as a whole risks increasing the hatred by association with Israel. In places like Croatia and Russia we see the rise in these violent homophobic groups, who are most likely anti-semitic in the extreme, this could inflame things further and by making it pro/anti Israel Israel is distracting from the fact that Israel is hated by the kind of people who would turn hosting a major lgbt event as more of a reason to target us.
Bowing to bigots is cowardly. You’re saying because bigots hate Jews the student organisation shouldn’t go to Israel?
I too saw Louis Theroux’s documentary but it didn’t turn me into a raving anti-Israel lunatic. Yes they have problems with extremist settlers but even the settlers admitted they were breaking Israeli law.
Stand up to injustice against gays and Jews.
So what when the army is always on their side just as the government. Israeli law is very fluid when it comes to implementation…
we need to stand up against all bigots and fascists, especially the trolls who hijack this forum!
Libelling people who ask for proof instead of hyperbole as “trolls hijacking this forum” is especially perverse.
What just against gays and Jews? Why not injustice against everyone?