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Trans woman wants drag acts banned from Pride festival

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  1. Sarah Brown 21 Jun 2011, 2:03pm

    I think this woman is wrong here. I don’t think we should be in the business of dictating what people can or cannot wear, not should we be in the business of policing gender expression.

  2. Ubelieveable this woman obviously hasnt got the Brains she was BORN with.

  3. Yet another transgender woman with an apparent sense of humour bypass.

    You do yourself, or the trans cause, no favours love. Unfortunately too many like you also do the same.

    1. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:52pm

      No not a sense of humour bypass just plain talking rubbish and doesn’t know what she is talking about. I sing and dance and do drama, I’m into satire that could be called drag. I am 10 years post operative TS, paid for by NHS, second opinioned by head of Charing cross. She is just plain wrong. I don’t want this nonesense, put forward by one daft person to be misused to negate the legitimate complaints by most of the trans. community against things like little Britain, Russel what’s his face that really are insulting.

    2. PumpkinPie 22 Jun 2011, 2:54am

      People who use any excuse to slur the whole transgender community do it more harm than people like this woman ever could. She’s a fool, but the transphobic vultures are the real enemies.

      1. Galadriel1010 22 Jun 2011, 3:23pm

        In general you’re probably right, but Rose White is a real piece of work.

  4. Jock S. Trap 21 Jun 2011, 2:14pm

    Sorry but there is a difference and aren’t Pride events about Acceptance and Respect.-

    Surely denying one group like ‘drag queens’ is discriminating in itself coming from someone who really should know better.

    1. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:53pm

      Because theatre and drama are my thing I’ve read a great many books on drag. There is crossover historically, with trans. people in drag.

  5. The world is a diverse place, and this woman is an old fashioned whinger.

    I suspect this is her far fetched idea of deciding what trans means her and how the rest of trans community should be dictated to – get over yourself.

  6. Tanya Bloomfied 21 Jun 2011, 2:17pm

    I speak as a trans woman with many friends who are trans, some of them are drag kings and queens. Drag is NOT exclusive to the Cis community.

    It is this woman who should be banned!

    1. theotherone 21 Jun 2011, 4:42pm

      I agree whole heartedly with you on that.

    2. I think also this women has failed to understand the intellectual significance of drag kings and queens.
      .
      Judith Butler describes the significance so eloquently, when she points out the performance nature of heteroexuality. Butler not only highlights how drag represents the search for the essential or pure man or women, but also how their is no orginal copy.
      .
      Drag therefore challenges the foundation of heterosexism, and is therefore intellectually central in the critical thinking surrounding the concept of “Perfomativity”.

      1. David Myers 22 Jun 2011, 5:15am

        Or the place that “drag queens” played in standing up for gay/lesbian rights. Need I remind her of the angry Queens of Stonewall who rioted because the New York cops had the audacity to raid their bar on the very night of the heroine’s funeral – Judy Garland?

    3. Right on Tanya.
      This woman is just a moaning old bigot.

  7. scattermoon 21 Jun 2011, 2:17pm

    As a trans woman myself, I do not support such a policy.

    There is certainly a great deal of confusion in the public mind over the differences between trans people, transvestites, drag queens, genderqueer people, and transgender people in general. But this is no way to aid that understanding. It merely breeds further conflict and makes trans women seem as small-minded as homophobes or transphobes.

    How about education instead of segregation?

    1. I totally agree, I am a trans woman myself and, while I can understand Rose’s thought process to some degree, I totally disagree with this policy of hers. Pride events are about exactly that, be proud of yourself *and* others… Education can only happen if we allow freedom of expression.

  8. martyn notman 21 Jun 2011, 2:26pm

    Drag has a long and treasured history in parts of the gay world..denying someone the right to dress/be/live how they want is EXACTLY what the Trans community has been been fighting against for years. Its not making a mockery of Trans people its a bit of fun/heritage/celebration- and this woman has no more right to ban it than people have to ban her being a woman.

    1. bearshaped 21 Jun 2011, 6:19pm

      hear hear

  9. I went to the Calderdale Pride, and there was a drag act on. She was not offensive to trans women and if anything I thought she pulled off the drag act very well she was humorous and inoffensive which alot of drag acts I see aren’t. Everyone knows drag kings/queens and transgender women/men are completely different she needs to get off her high horse and join the real world.

    1. Jock S. Trap 21 Jun 2011, 2:33pm

      Indeed.

      I get the feeling this woman is more blaming Gay men for society having a lack of education.

      1. Jock S. Trap 21 Jun 2011, 2:34pm

        I should have put “for some in society…”

  10. Galadriel1010 21 Jun 2011, 2:46pm

    Oh Halifax, never change.

  11. Clark Downes 21 Jun 2011, 3:03pm

    Over reacting maybe, but I can see her point.
    Gays have a stereotype and Pride’s often reinforces this too but its just something I get on with so although I see her point sometimes you just have to accept thats life.

    1. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:32pm

      I am 10 years post operative TS, 2nd signed off by the head of charing cross. I dance, sing and do drama. I am working on an act, and it will include some drag (I’n not sure really that it isn’t all drag to be honest). But anyway, I don’t exist? What am I going to do? Am I kind of th einvisible woman that doesn’t exist and can’t be seen because Fleur black says so?

  12. People need reminding these days that drag queens played an important part in the Stonewall riots and still play an important part in campaigning, fundraising, bringing our community together and helping us not to take ourselves too seriously. Wish we saw a few more in Canterbury and area.

  13. She’s being an idiot and a killjoy.

    Drag is something separate from being trans.

    If she doesn’t like drag then she’s free to stay home.

    Or have a 1 person pride festival in her own home.

  14. Miguel Sanchez 21 Jun 2011, 3:31pm

    Is sad but this person hasn’t a clue about this. Dressing in drag has been going on for years and it’s never been a slap in the face to the transgendered. Everyone who has performed in drag know who they are and they’re not claiming to be transgendered. Rhue Paul is a guy and has no intention of losing his equipment.

    We have enough people trying to put the GBLT population down without infighting.

    To This woman I say this, “Get a grip sweetie.”

    1. David Myers 22 Jun 2011, 5:19am

      “Dressing in drag has been going on for years” – try centuries – or how about millennia?

      1. What about “Shakespearean Drag”
        .
        After all women were not allowed on the stage in this period, and men had to perform the roles of women to compensate for the gender restrictions!

  15. Apparently the meaning of “Pride” has escaped this woman. As well as the concept of community.

    One of the comments from a delegate from Nepal when asked how they were able to move so quickly was that their entire community always works together. She commented that she was shocked at how when in Europe (and it is certainly the same in the US) that there is so much division.

    How soon we forget those swinging purses at Stonewall that broke the ice for everyone else.

    When I was young and stupid I also that if we all just acted normal we would be accepted. WRONG. Thankfully I grew up. In fact I learned the hard way that if anything the exact opposite is probably true. Growing up requires paying attention and being open to something besides your own youthful perceptions, but not nearly enough people seem to be able to do that.

    1. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 6:17pm

      Divide and conquer. It is really worrying so many people seem to want to attack people they ought to be struggling against oppression with, and that they can only see the dull minutia rather than the really important bigger issues.

  16. Galadriel1010 21 Jun 2011, 3:34pm

    Apparently Rose White has a habit of being a homophobic and transphobic bigot. http://womenborntranssexual.com/2011/06/19/a-major-reason-why-i-do-not-support-the-hbs-crowd-rose-white/

    1. Wow. She might be one of the maddest people I’ve ever read about.

  17. scattermoon 21 Jun 2011, 3:35pm

    It’s also worth bearing in mind that it is by no means unknown for transsexual people to experiment with drag as a way to ‘test the water’ or explore how they feel. Then there also post-transition transsexual people who do drag – I know of some transsexual women who are drag kings, or transsexual men who are drag queens…and this is all ignoring the large numbers of genderqueer and non-binary people out of there.

    These are not disperate categories by any means, which further highlights the deep problems inherent in this woman’s request.

  18. Some LGBT peeps are more equal than others? I could begin to assign my partner to any of these crazy sub-divissions. He is just him,…….. or, her.

  19. Christine Beckett 21 Jun 2011, 4:03pm

    Nope… Can’t agree with her.

  20. HelenWilson 21 Jun 2011, 4:15pm

    I’m really not so insecure that I find drag acts a threat to my gender identity or my sexuality. Some people really need to get a life for themselves and stop telling others how they should live or act. I really cant see how telling people they cant do drag is any difference from the religious fundamentalists or second wave feminist saying we cant change sex….Ban her not drag.

  21. This is the simple reason i never use the T word when it comes to LGB(t),
    I have never understood why the T word is used in LGBT when really, being a T person is nothing to do with sexuality….Woman like this really get my back up

    1. scattermoon 21 Jun 2011, 4:25pm

      Ah, this ol’ debate again…

      All I will say this time, given the context of this particular article, is pretty much the same as what I said in my previous comment, that whilst sexual orientation and gender identity are seperate things, they are linked through people’s experiences. Not all drag queens will see themselves strictly as male. Plenty of straight trans women may first act as, and/or believe themselves gay men before they transition, and that is once again focusing on the binary. It is nigh on impossible to disentangle these things, especially in a society that by and large doesn’t know the intricacies. And do you think someone yelling abuse at someone they perceive as a man in a wig and a dress will care if that person is a cis male drag queen, a trans woman, or someone else?

    2. Th T is there because before transition the transwoman if she did it with a guy would be considered gay or bi so the background is similar. You are correct that after transition they might be hetero or they could be bi. many of these transwomen no longer relate to the GLB world. Then there are those who were hetero or bi before transition. After they are then lesbian or bi and relate to the appropriate communities. For transmen it’s the opposite.
      Face it, the whole think is queer as all of them one way or another will relate to a same sex relationship in their life. That’s why they belong. Also in common is the act of ‘coming out’ which basically has the same stages in it as a gay person but usually a worse experience. They still belong.

  22. Get out more love!

  23. Art Pearson 21 Jun 2011, 4:21pm

    We fight for tolerance and acceptance, take two steps forward but then, a step back. Rose, you need to rethink your thoughts on this. If you want acceptance, you need to be accepting.

  24. So what about atrsight drag acts? There’s a few around surprisingly. Perhaps she needs to check out her own prejudices views about stereotypes before she writes letters the silly cow.

  25. i have a lot of sympathy but shes wrong

  26. I agree with that woman. A declaration should be fine though.

  27. A compliant stemming from Internalised Homophobia?

    1. Galadriel1010 22 Jun 2011, 3:26pm

      It’s far from internalised. She’s a vicious homophobic and transphobic bigot, judging by her writings.

  28. Spanner1960 21 Jun 2011, 5:31pm

    Why do trans people have such fcuking massive chips on their shoulders?
    .
    By rights, transexuality isn’t even a gay issue, but we somehow get tarred with the same “sexuality” brush. These people should be thankful they are protected under our banner instead of whinging on about how they are perceived.
    .
    If you feel so hard done by, run your own damn parade and stop pissing on ours.

    1. HelenWilson 21 Jun 2011, 6:12pm

      You might want to remember the pride flag includes the trans colours on it too. It is our parade as much as it is yours, you seem to have a chip of your own.

      As you show Spanner, one fruitcake douses not speak for a whole movement.

    2. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:40pm

      I’m not weak minded enough myself to tat the entire Gay or trans community with the same brush because of a few bigoted idiots. I have to say though that despite being post op fro 10 years, Russel Reid my first doctor, and dalrympal my confirming second opinion, because I am almost never seen in a skirt, I am according to the local trans group in Blackpool, not trans I’ve heard. What can you do? In my case I just stay away from the groups to honest, because myself i can’t be bothered having to argue with every trans and gay bigot in the world.

    3. miss Dennis Queenj 22 Jun 2011, 12:00am

      nah trans people don;t have chips on their shoulders but some people (trans and not) when trying to campaign for a better deal in life just get it realllly crringe-ing-ly wrong . thank goodness it’s a minority of people! x

    4. Hi, I’m transsexed *and gay*. Most of us are. None of the comments on this thread support this Rose White woman, and Stonewall itself is named after the trans riots.

    5. PumpkinPie 22 Jun 2011, 2:51am

      Any excuse for a bit of the ol’ trans-bashing, eh, Spanner? Never mind that every single person here disagreed with her, that comment was all you needed to let some pressure off of that itchy trigger finger. People like her aren’t the reason for your transphobic outbursts, they’re merely an excuse.

    6. > By rights, transexuality isn’t even a gay issue, but we
      > somehow get tarred with the same “sexuality” brush.

      The sexuality brush is sexual orientation, which is gay, lesbian and bisexual. Being transsexual is about the sex of the body, and crossing between sexes (which is why there are two “s” in the word – trans sex), and identity. It isn’t a gay issue, I agree. Its an associated area of human rights, a kindred cause.

      > These people
      > should be thankful they are protected under our banner instead
      > of whinging on about how they are perceived.

      We are protected under our own banner, thank you. Our own aspects of law. But some transsexual people are also lesbian, gay or bisexual. And some lesbian, gay or bisexual people need protection on grounds of not behaving according to usual expectation of their sex. And we all get attacked by the same religious nuts, bigots and fascists, who see no difference. Don’t you care how you are perceived?

  29. GayWebHosting 21 Jun 2011, 5:50pm

    “We wouldn’t ever want to attempt to restrict or control in any way the people that attend the event. Calderdale Pride is all about inclusivity and freedom of expression.”

    Absolutely! Where are some people’s brains? Isn’t there more important pressing issues that she could be speaking out on than this?

    She is seeking to push back the march of time by ‘banning’ people from things? Careful love, that’s a dangerous slippery slope to go down…?

    1. Christine Beckett 21 Jun 2011, 5:55pm

      She is one person, and as can be seen very, very few others agree with her view. So please don’t tar us all with the same brush as this narrow-minded woman. :-)

      chrissie

      1. GayWebHosting 21 Jun 2011, 6:26pm

        “So please don’t tar us all with the same brush as this narrow-minded woman”

        I would not seek to, and wasn’t aware I had?

        My comment is purely directed at this womans outrageous views, so very publicly stated.

        1. Christine Beckett 22 Jun 2011, 8:02am

          Doh! Sorry…

          I meant to post this as a reply to Spanner1960…

          Blond moment… :-)

          chrissie

  30. Alice Randall 21 Jun 2011, 6:06pm

    Purrr-lease…

  31. She does realise crossdressers and drag acts improve trans visibility?
    Is it april 1st again already?

  32. I would have to disagree with Ms. White since the DRAG acts/shows has been an integral part of the Pride Celebrations. The word Drag is used for any clothing carrying symbolic significance but usually referring to the clothing associated with one gender role when worn by a person of the other gender. It has become a symbol of defiance to intolerance and conformity in clothing, to which our transsexual and transgender friends has somewhat benefited on now. Our consciousness has already evolved about sexuality and sexual lifestyles, and that this level of consciousness is what we need to promulgate to those who has yet not understood the concepts. Proper education is the key. To limit or ban the drag acts/shows is in itself discriminatory with in the GLBTQ Community, which is another sad reality.

  33. Lucio Buffone 21 Jun 2011, 6:11pm

    If it wasn’t for Drag, there’d be no pride!

    1. And Pantomime would be a lot less fun

  34. And you’re right… The rightness of this person’s concern is that fact that we (gay people) who dont want to be stereotyped are the one’s who re-enforce it by our acts and then turn around to accuse the those who buy it from us of homophobia… She might be wrong for banning, but there’s sense in her suggestion.

    1. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:43pm

      no there isn’t this woman is a fruitcake.

  35. Isn’t Gay Pride about being proud of who we are as human beings, and asserting the right to all be different and equal? People who are gay may also be trans, and trans people may also be gay. We all have the right to be heard and treated fairly.
    (A trans man who used to live as lesbian).

  36. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 8:55pm

    Let me see now, I’m 10 years post operative MF TS, having been 2nd checked/opinioned by the head of Charing Cross . I am a keen singer, and a keen dancer (I do a bit of acting and writing as well – but haven’t yet reached the point where I want to put my writing in front of anybody). I am working on my act, and part of my act will hopefully be to make some sophisticated use of gender stereotypes for humour (or what is commonly known as drag). One of my university projects was on Funnygirls. The dancing school where I dance is having a show shortly, and I am in it, because it’s good practice. Is she saying I have to go on stage with a notice around my neck telling a blatant lie that I’m not TS? Have I just got it wrong and i don’t exist? Many TS’s in the past have done drag acts. (I’m starting to think of those philosophy things where I think therefore I am). Is this me I see in the mirror or some kind of chimera?

  37. *sigh*
    The ideas and ludicrous statements of late transitioning transsexuals are getting more and more bizarre all the time. Of course she’s completely ignorant to that many early transitioners do have ties to or sometimes comes from gay, queer or drag culture.

  38. Das a Drag 21 Jun 2011, 9:18pm

    I think she doesn’t realize that drag queens allowed her her rights.

    Yea, Stonewall Riots. The majority of the people there were in drag.

  39. auntie babs 21 Jun 2011, 9:42pm

    whilst I do not agree with her comments, this does put me in mind of the days when the Black and White minsterals (I’m older than I look) were banned for being racially offensive.

    1. Another Hannah 21 Jun 2011, 9:47pm

      Problem with that is it’s enormously complicated and related to other factors. Connected with some factors it might be so, and with others not so, but that’s the point, that it is not always so makes this blanket statement plain wrong. And that’s it just plain and simply wrong. The other point is beside the point, and much more complicated, so best not to bring it in to this barmy woman, the dictor of the world in Halifax.

  40. Alexander Hauser 21 Jun 2011, 9:43pm

    I’m transsexual myself and speak for most of the trans community in saying that we are NOT with this woman. Most of the trans community thinks she’s being fascist and totally unreasonable.

    1. I agree, but please don’t try to speak for me in future without giving sources.

    2. No single person, and no groups speak for the wide diversity of communities, and individuals who can be conceived of as tagged with the term trans. You are, sir, a fraud. Please desist.

  41. Drag performers and cross dressers have just as might right to participate in Pride as anyone else. No group should fight for acceptance, by trying to limit others.

  42. DJ Sheepiesheep 21 Jun 2011, 11:21pm

    What an insane notion. I am 15 years post op mtf. I grew up in London’s gender queer scene in the early 90’s. I am not afraid to say that being transsexual or indeed discovering or realizing one’s transsexuality is sometimes a continuation of the drag spectrum. From a personal standpoint, some of my best friends and greatest personal supporters were (and still are – thank you Vicky Lee) drag queens. I am not sure that I would have been so confident about living 24/7 in the mid 90’s without the support and encouragement of the late Stephan Whitfield, to whom I owe a huge debt of gratitude. I suspect that many others do too.

  43. miss Dennis Queenj 21 Jun 2011, 11:37pm

    Don’t like the GAY in PRIDE? Then stay home. Simple.

    Hope this helps.

    Don’t let my feather boa trip you up on your way out, now.

    Queen Dennis

  44. Let me quote ‘drag queens – homosexuals dressed as women; drag kings – women dressed as men’ ….. OK, explain to me who is being stereotypical in that statement? So only homosexual men in the authors opinion dress as drag queens and all women, regardless of their sexuality dress ad drag kings ?????

    Perhaps a little more thought should have been given before writing such a statement and indeed a complaint.

    I’m not sure you (the author) would actually get a huge amount of support, but well done for raising the awareness ?

  45. lady tanya 22 Jun 2011, 2:32am

    I am Transsexual my self mtf 8 years post op this Thursday, and if it were not for the Drag (dressed as a girl) Queens and the Drab (dressed as a boy ) kings and us T Girls and T Guys and the Gays , there would have not been a Stonewall.
    Drag gos back hundreds of years, as back then no women in the thespians work.
    I love the drag shows and the guys and girls that do them
    This woman has on concept, no brain and is in a nuttier world where she is alone, and alone in her thinking
    Woman get a life, and a sense of humour

  46. Dan Filson 22 Jun 2011, 3:07am

    This is one reason Stonewall has been reluctant to champion transgender people, that some are gay or lesbian and many are not. But Pride is an all-embracing event or series of events, celebrating diversity. So there should be room for transgender people, and people should not deride them. Personally, I think drag acts by gay men cross-dressing simply to poke fun at women (the opposite is a lot rarer) plays to mysoginy; it gets lots of laughs but it does stereotype gay men as cross-dressers, which is far from the reality, just as most are not effeminate either.

    1. just happy as a woman, but... 22 Jun 2011, 8:41am

      Let’s face it. ‘Transgender’ is a very broad church, from those who go through reassignment to live as men or women without wanting any other label around their neck, those who are proudly transgender and those for whom it is an occasional venture into cross dressing. They can love their gender or disclaim it. They can identify as L, G. B or straight, disinterested or just regard their sexual orientation as irrelevant. They can have a history in the LGB and T community, or used it as a stepping stone to explore their gender issues or have had nothing and/or know nothing about it. They may or may not change their original bodies and/or birth certificates and they might retain their families and friends or go and start new lives. They may be obviously trans or they may go unnoticed. They may be open or private about their situation in life and they may adore and participate in Pride or they may ignore it or have never even noticed it. And that’s diversity for you.

    2. Drag is just part of the diversity. I don’t usually like it. In fact I don’t ever remembering liking it, from Danny La Rue on TV as a kid, onwards. Obviously drag was not my model – it was a female body I needed, desperately, then to live as woman, and preferably a mother too.

      As you say, there’s often an element of misogyny, to which I am aware I am very sensitive. But let others enjoy as they will. Drag could work on that aspect though.

      The problem with stereotyping comes from the prominence, as entertainment, as photo opportunity, as attention seeking. The way London Pride featured the cast of ‘Priscilla, Queen of the Desert’, in full drag, and tagged then as trans, was the nadir of this.

      It makes some of us uncomfortable at Pride, which I used to attend as a lesbian (but the potential to encounter transphobe Bindell or her fans does so far more). It probably makes quite a lot of women feel the same way. Yet it is a big part of “the show”.

      No biggie. Pride isn’t everything.

  47. A Gay Human 22 Jun 2011, 3:41am

    I just watched a new TV series where Earth is invaded by aliens. In it, the human race is fighting to avoid becoming extinct. You would think that it makes all humans on the same side, but they had one small group kill a few other humans. This has never made sense to me, but I do understand it. This article by this woman just proves it. “Gay Pride” in itself is about being proud of the person that you are and taken literally is about same sex relations. Now before any of the Trans people out there upset, read the rest. The point of the beginning is that it does not matter what the ‘aliens’ think, we are all in the same situation and should only strive to work together to make the world a better place. Do not worry if the ‘aliens’ think you are different or the same as all other humans. Just be proud of who you are.

    1. Thank you.

  48. I believe that Pride should feature folk who can be taken seriously (marriage-eligible, rational, sober, etc.) For that reason, exhibitionists (including bare bums as well as drag) should be kept out of the view of the general public.

    1. Thank you. I would like to be able to share Pride events with my daughter but refuse to expose her to the nudity.

  49. asadoyayunta 22 Jun 2011, 10:28am

    This story is from the town of Halifax-Calderone in Novia Scotia. NOT Halifax in Calderdale, Yorkshire. Your journalistic standards hit another all time low Jessica! If you are going to copy/paste stories from other sites, at least get the location right.

    1. asadoyayunta 22 Jun 2011, 10:30am

      oops my mistake, another site has reported it as from Novia Scotia! Sorry

    2. Galadriel1010 22 Jun 2011, 3:30pm

      No, she’s definitely from Halifax, Calderdale.

  50. Get a Life! 22 Jun 2011, 11:07am

    I am always confused as to why transgender/bisexual/intersexed people are considered to be part of the gay and lesbian community. These people do not identify as part of “our” community, but somehow have joined our party because they do not fit into the traditional hetrosexual community. Is there any particular reason that they do not establish their own lobby groups / festivals / celebration events?

    For a transgender woman to object to a form of entertainment that has been performed since the times of Shakespear is just a little bit on the nose ….

    1. That would depend on the individual surely. I’m a transman and identify as gay, so therefore consider myself part of the community because I’m not heterosexual. There are plenty of transmen and women who aren’t straight and there are those who are; so surely anyone who identifies as homosexual should be part of the gay/lesbian community.

      But I certainly agree that she shouldn’t object to drag queens, last time I checked being transgender and being a cross dresser were not the same thing!

      1. I agree with evan…I am a GAY trans man….and I dislike that just because I was born female and I fancy men…I am not seen as ‘fully gay’ or just trying to be part of something. ALOT of LGB people need to do some research on gender identity and sexuality…they are separate but some trans people are gay, just like cis people.

    2. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 6:09pm

      There are lots of little trans groups around, but they are pretty shy, mousy, straight laced little afairs, really a relic of the past. I suspect hat as our social system progresses lots of trans people will get more daring and outrageous, but for a moment the very establishment, deferential groups have a strong hold, it’s really partly a result of our culture. I wish i could thik of a way to stop it, modernise it, and bring them out of their shells. People afraid to show themselves.

  51. Black Hawk Down 22 Jun 2011, 11:58am

    This woman is yumpy … her cheese has slid of its cracker … she has ‘roos in the top paddock … she’s a station between East Ham and Upney!

    1. Why do you feel the need to be insulting?

  52. Kelvin O'Neil 22 Jun 2011, 12:51pm

    I ‘ve always said that if I wanted to see a 50 year old mime to records I’d buy tickets to see Madonna, I think most sane folk know the difference between Drag – Transvestite- and Transgender, it’s not my cup of tea but a lot of people like it so why put a dampener on things and make people moan about it? Female impersonators have livelihoods too. http://www.facebook.com/whof1

  53. From the perspective of: A female to male trans man who does drag (as a drag queen) I understand this woman’s anguish, before I came out as a trans man I was scared because I didn’t want people thinking that I was a drag queen or king, because or yes…the nagative image that (I believed) the heterosexual world views drag act with. although I now appreciate drag acts and even take part in them…I am always harassed by people in both the Straight and gay communities that don’t understand why I transitioned in to a man if I spend most nights on the town in a dress anyway.

    I think the real answer to this is to get more education to EVERYONE, that drag is an act…and being trans is not a choice.

  54. I do not feel Transsexuals really fit in at a Gay Pride Event at all. I suppose you can go to support your gay and lesbian friends but it is not a reflection of the Trans Community. Drag queens are basically gay men in costumes so for that reason they have a connection to the gay pride events. The Trans community has an alliance with the Gay, Bi, and Lesbian community more on a political level than on an identity level.
    I can certainly relate to the author’s frustration at Trans folks being confused with drag queens. Drag is about impersonation and fantasy. Trans people are about living authentically and honestly. The two are as different as apples and oranges.

    1. Galadriel1010 22 Jun 2011, 3:34pm

      Pride isn’t just about gay pride at all. Maybe some are, but Calderdale Pride certainly wasn’t. It’s about the whole community. It’s about men and women and those who identify and neither or a bit of both, and the people who love them. It’s about having pride in who you are when society thinks you shouldn’t. Trans* people everywhere along the spectrum are fully part of that.

    2. I agree , drag is a joke something of humour, debased in a deliberate format. Being trans is completely seperate, as it is living gender not a parody or a vague association.

    3. What about people such as myself who are lesbians & transwomen?
      Aside from that aspect, transpeople are lumped into TLBG (yes, I put it the opposite of how you usually see it) by society’s concept of who we are. Walking down the street with a transman we have been thought of as a gay couple. Walking down the street with a cisgender woman & people think that at best we are friends although in both occasions the other people involved were my partner.
      I fully agree with your statement “Drag is about impersonation and fantasy. Trans people are about living authentically and honestly. The two are as different as apples and oranges.”

  55. I am a trans woman and I strongly disagree with her view. Pride should welcome all forms of gender expression, be it cis-, trans- or anything in the middle or even anything else at all.

    I sympathise with the issues she has faced. But that should reinforce her (& everyone’s) desire to tackle homophobia in all it’s guises.

  56. Andrew Emmerson 22 Jun 2011, 3:32pm

    Drag acts have been a long and historic part of the gay community since the stone wall riots.

    It was “trannys and drag queens” that threw the first punches, and we shouldn’t be about to abandon that tradition

  57. What is this woman going on about?
    Drag is parodic public performance. Some of it is misogynistic, some of it a highly witty and penetrating comment on gender stereotyping. Some of it is brilliant; a lot of it is bloody awful. But it is an old and hallowed part of our cultural furniture (and of some working-class straight pub culture as well). And has bugger-all to do with transgenderism.

    1. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 5:41pm

      Yeah? And where do you think the trans people went before there were sex changes about 50 years ago? And where do you think the brave trannies went before there were piddly private little groups full of small minded parochial idiots like the Beaumont society? Beaumont society I see personally as pollution…..

      1. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 5:44pm

        There was for example one Julian Eltinge, and he was absolutely straight you know, not even a tranny, even had fights….and if you believe that you’ll believe anything…..like the monastries and convents were built for, and full of devoutly religious celibate people……

    2. They went where they were likely to find more acceptance than in mainstream society (just as they went to gay pubs and still do), but transgenderism is a psychological and identity-related experience unrelated to the cultural phenomenon of drag. They are both transgressive of assumed gender norms, but subjectively are quite different.

    3. This is like saying that Black Face performances were good for people of color.

  58. Sophie Hawthorne 22 Jun 2011, 4:41pm

    As a woman with a transsexual history I have to admit I don’t like the idea of banning this and banning that, after all there are lots of phobics out there who would like to ban most of us. Drag acts aren’t my thing and I do think they reflect badly on people trying to live their lives in a gender role which isn’t congruent with their birth gender but I still stand by my anti banning stance. I believe that education is still the way forward with transsexual issues not censorship. That said I think that the concept of the drag act will be viewed in the future much the same way as we now view the black and white minstrel show, that was seen at the time as comedy and parody. I did work with Danny la Rue and found him to be a lovely man where as Paul O’Grady/Lily Savage I definitely find an obnoxious git. Takes all sorts, eh?

    1. Sophie Hawthorne 22 Jun 2011, 5:17pm

      After giving this subject some thought a question occurred to me….
      I have met many people who identify as gay. They were all different and impossible to stereotype. Well my question is how do gay men feel about the mainstream media’s portrayal of gay men as vacuous, and camp in the mould of people such as Graham Norton and Alan Carr who both come over as viper tongued and aspiring to the cult of z list celebrity?
      My personal opinion is that recently a new and far more diverse breed of gay man has emerged, all high achievers and fabulous role models like Derrin Brown and several other major league sports stars who all demonstrate wit and intelligence far beyond any image of ‘gay’ offered offered to prime time audiences.
      I am genuinely very interested to hear others views on this subject as I feel that it is pertinent to the portrayal of LGB and T groups as stereotypes within the media.

      1. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 5:55pm

        Urr, that’s damned offensive sophy. I dislike Graham Norton, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is bright, and smart – you can’t do those quips unless you’ve a good brain. I dislike him for the insulting comments he has made about Lesbians and other. Paul O’Grady is lovely, and he certainly isn’t stupid. Even if he doesn’t write his own stuff some of the humour in the guise of Lily Savage is very clever, and pretty biting. This is a man who has seen some stuff, and fully understands what he has seen. O’Grady is a terrible brown noser around those celebs though….I still love dame edna (and that terrible gross les patterson, the australian cultural ambasador), but we just don’t seem to get her so much these days

        1. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 5:58pm

          And Alan Carr is bright and clever. Have you never properly watched him? Don’t believe that stuff about how his drama degree was pointless, he’s using that stuff all the time.

          1. Sophie Hawthorne 22 Jun 2011, 6:28pm

            My point, which you obviously missed was that the prime time portrayal of gay men needs more balance. In answer to your question, I have watched him a couple of times and no I didn’t think his fawning sarcastic style was very entertaining.

      2. I agree & your position seems to me to state well the issue. Drag performance perpetuates the stereotype of gender variance who present as female in ways that are far for women like Jennifer Finney Boylan or many transwomen in our society.

    2. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 5:48pm

      “Drag acts aren’t my thing and I do think they reflect badly on people trying to live their lives in a gender role which isn’t congruent with their birth gender”. No afraid not, trannies reflect badly on drag queens I think, humourless, mousy sadly and deeply conventional people without the guts to do anything challenging, and happy to be exploited, and proping up even sometimes the exploitation of others for thier own selfish aims. Not all trans. people are the same. It’s called prejudice!

      1. Sophie Hawthorne 22 Jun 2011, 6:34pm

        “No afraid not, trannies reflect badly on drag queens I think, humourless, mousy sadly and deeply conventional people without the guts to do anything challenging, and happy to be exploited, and proping up even sometimes the exploitation of others for thier own selfish aims.”
        While I have my own views on TV’s and CD’s who are you calling prejudiced? I am making the assumption that you are referring to TV’s and CD’s as I hope that you know that to call a transsexual women a tranny is deeply offensive.

        1. Thank you Sophie Hawthorne.
          Another Hannah’s comment was filled with transgender prejudice. I’d like to further add that she is off the mark in saying that transfolks are happy to be exploited. Far from it. That is just what I think Rose was fighting against. Exploitation of gender variance through entertainment is one of the reasons that gender variant people have faced so much prejudice in society.

    3. Another Hannah 22 Jun 2011, 6:03pm

      Drag incidentally can be brilliant, entertaining and clever, parodying the burden Gay men share with woman, it’s oppression and the ludicrous and grossly infair nature of out society. Why exactly do you think so many women love drag acts exactly? Danny La Rue was OK, you’re showing your age here I think, but the lack of satirical bite for me made it unexciting humour – nothing cereabral to be gained. And for me you get something smart from a good comic, you’ve not encountered before, that’s the whole point, otherwise yo might as well read barchester chronicals.

      1. Sophie Hawthorne 22 Jun 2011, 6:45pm

        “Drag incidentally can be brilliant” as I said each to his or her own. Just doesn’t do it for me as I find the whole gendre tired and outdated. My observation of Danny la Rue was based on his off stage persona and if perhaps you could leave your smug childish persona out of it you would know that it’s not that long ago that he was still performing. A generally nice guy who treated people many years his junior with respect and kindness. After you’ve left sixth form and lived a bit maybe you’ll develop the art of being polite and may even improve your powers of comprehension.

  59. The menstruator 22 Jun 2011, 9:40pm

    If you’re going to celebrate the bisexuals at my pride events you might as well have fun with the trans. If it was a male only or female only event, maybe I could, no I couldn’t side with this person. I’m the first to dislike drag from the feminist stand point. Takes WAY more than surgery or a dress to make someone a woman, but it is what it is and hopefully not hurting anyone. just sets the woman movement back, but no one cares about that anyway.

    1. You make some good points. Your statement “Takes WAY more than surgery or a dress to make someone a woman” I very much think points to what Rose was saying.
      Transwomen are women. Drag queens are men pretending to be women. Of course a drag queen doesn’t always get surgery or do HRT. I dont’ know Rose nor have seen her but I suspect that if I did she would be acting like a woman not being a parody of one.

  60. Drag acts have long history in the LGBT communities and have contributed to comically challenging attitudes and behaviours – long may they continue

    1. The word there is ‘comically challenged’ lol
      Because most drag acts are…..

      1. You do have a point with some, although some are very funny, some are appalling though …

  61. Rose white also writes under the pseudonyn’s Fleur Black and Violet Grey. She did not transition until she was 57 years old. For those of you wanting to know how blatantly homophobic and transphobic Rose White actually is you can read her book for free online.

    The book is at:

    http:www.completelynovel.combooks102047read-online

    You will not enjoy it.

    An article with links to further homophobic information regarding Rose White is on the women born transsexual blog at: http:womenborntranssexual.com20110619a-major-reason-why-i-do-not-support-the-hbs-crowd-rose-white

    A better link to more concise information on what rose white is about: http:zagria.blogspot.com201006rose-whites-harry-benjamin-syndrome.html The blatant homphobia of rose white, is clear for all to see at that link.

    How about banning Rose White from the pride event or even better renaming it the Rose White day and have every concievable variation of dress from nudity right through to fetish, in her name for the day:)

    A charity spanking event called the Rose White Spankathon at pride, might be good to raise some money for charity. I will let others think who best to have spanked for charity:) You do realise this person is actually suggesting banning gay people from gay pride.

    As a post op woman myself, if I wanted to avoid drag queens and drag kings I would just not go where they perform. Drag is not my thing personally, but it does no harm and can be funny as hell if you get the right one. In my opinion, Rose White who wrote that letter calling for a ban on gay people dressing up as the opposite sex at a pride event, is an idiot.

  62. Bless her – but how can a transsexual claim that a transvestite is somehow giving transsexuals a bad name? lol
    Now if she had instead asked for drag queens to be banned on the basis of bitter and twisted crap jokes, clichéd driven nonsense and (mostly) giving singers a bad name then I would most wholeheartedly agree! lol

  63. Robin Evans 23 Jun 2011, 1:46am

    Stupid F-ing Dragaphobe, we are our own worst enemies, really this just disgusts me…

  64. Another Hannah 23 Jun 2011, 12:05pm

    The gaul of the woman really distracted and shocked me here. The central issue is really about wether drag has anything to do with trans. and it has to be said I think essentially no, not at all, she should mind her own business. I do think there is a continuum between drag and trans. not a binary split, but that really is a different story. The trans groups really are very old fashioned and destructive and i think if I were GLB groups I would be trying to make sure the involvement of the trans groups was in a way that they could not be disruptive. I avoid them myself because they are so disruptive, and often dim badly educated people seem to think they have the right to dictate and tell smarter better read people what to do. Beware the thick dictators, and arbitors of all wrong and right with no knowledge or understanding!

  65. connor wallace 23 Jun 2011, 11:27pm

    I agree with this woman. Wether you think drag is funny or not, it doesnt achieve much more than re-enforcing negative stereotypes.

  66. I’ve noticed quite a lot of negative comments about this woman, in a tone that matches some of the worst sexist, homophobic and misogynistic commenting i’ve seen on Digg.

    To all of you are using crudities, or “sense of humor bypass” comments just remember that there are a lot of things out there that make you sensitive.

    Now personally I don’t have a problem with DQs, they are nothing harmful in themselves, however in the wrong forum they can hinder rather than help.

    The woman may be very flawed in her thinking, but she does not need being insulted because she exposed one of her insecurities.

  67. Michelle Michaels 24 Jun 2011, 4:10am

    I am a drag queen AND I am transgender. Many drag queens either are trans or become trans. In fact in order to earn a living doing drag where I live you have to either get breast implants or take hormones to grow breasts.

  68. Suvi-Tuuli Allan 25 Jun 2011, 3:48pm

    I’m a woman and proudly transsexual (adj.). Hey, I have nothing against drag. In fact, I’d deffo be a drag king. It’s just that these bloody cis dykes are such hateful meanies that I have to stay away from them. I don’t know Rose White, but I do agree on one thing: The cissies screw things up for us more often than not.

  69. Suvi-Tuuli Allan 25 Jun 2011, 3:50pm

    This! -> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?comments_popup=24832#comment-208652

    Don’t be hating on us trans women, yo!

  70. I think that Scottish men should be banned from wearing kilts; afterall, isn’t that just taking the rise out of their hard working women who stay at home to tend the children and keep house? And don’t get me started on women who wear trousers – lesbians, the lot of ‘em!

  71. I think that Rose has a good point. If the prominent representation of being gender variant is campy & phalliocentric that is what people believe we all are. Censorship isn’t necessarily the answer though. So many comments I see here though show cisgender privilege & the myopic viewpoint that can come with being privileged. I realize that many of my sisters are performers in this manner. That is their right. To me though this is like the time I told my mom that she was as beautiful as a Las Vagas Showgirl. The majority of transwomen I know are far closer to the typical mom, wife, sister, daughter not a glitzy parody of being female.

  72. I hate drag queens : I always have done, from my pre-teens.
    I refuse to attend LGBT events where they are on, is as simple as that, so I have no objections to them beign banned for LGBT events such as Pride, Sparkle etc.

  73. Wow, really? I guess everyone’s got to have someone to look down on. :/

  74. while ever drag queens are allowed to parody woman or mtfs they will foster the discrimination which we see in the regular reports of TS being refused use of womens toilets for being dangerous perverts.
    obviously tvs and cd and such cannot understand this reason as they do not have the female brain of the genuine transsexual.
    and of course as it is genuine women who tell CDs and TVs to use disabled toilets then it is logical to accept that rose white is no more discriminatory than the toilet guards?

  75. Tommy Monroe 5 Sep 2011, 2:11pm

    I think the notion of banning drag queens/kings is no more logical than banning the trans community. Instead of banning drag, perhaps we in the gender variant community need some interesting/humourous performance spokespersons of our own!
    Also, I think (regrettably almost) it’s imperative that there should be more specific gender variant events to dissuade the notion that sexuality and gender expression are in any way linked (although don’t get me wrong – I’m eternally grateful for the ‘T’ in ‘LGBT’). I’ve been to three pride events this year and couldn’t help feeling like a complete outsider. x

    1. Countessa Countessa's Closet 20 Mar 2012, 6:27am

      Hello my Darlin Tommy Monroe. I just saw your posting and just had to comment. I know at times many do try to make gender variance a heavy duty problem, I just wish the world would slow down and worry about other things, I have friends and clients in all walks of life and all lifestyles, those are their choice, but to be friend, was my choice. Its that simple. I have never felt that what a person does in their bedroom is anyone elses business!
      I think if peoplel need to know whats going on in other peoples bedrooms, they are a bit strange.. Who cares.. its in their own space and its not bothering anyone else.. As for Tg events, I must take you to the ones we go to and ones we have.. YOu will love them… and as for Drag Queens.. I adore the shows, love the female impersonators and of course as I design for many of the top Drag Entertainers.. I love the fashions and the wardrobes.
      ..Well , I guess I went on a bit there, but remember Precious Tommy , that I love ya ,
      Countessa.

    2. Countessa Countessa's Closet 20 Mar 2012, 6:29am

      OOpsie.. I guess I posted two different notes twice, so sorry, thought it did not go thru,but found this on the back page…Oh my ! but will still post it..
      Hello my Precious and Darlin Tommy Monroe. If there was ever a Marilyn Monroe in the male gender, you would totally be her ! You are gorgeous. sophisticated, charming , forever kind to everyone and I just wanted to let you know I saw your posting here… I love ya !
      Maybe we can do lunch next week. Call me anytime , I will be at the boutique tomorrow, after 2 ish, 818 763 9806.. Dear Tommy, don’t ever change, you are one of the most wonderful and fun as well as kind humans I have ever met… Besides..Everyone I have ever met Loves ya !
      Love and happiness,
      YOur pal,
      Countessa

  76. Countessa Countessa's Closet , Fashion designer and beauty advisor. 20 Mar 2012, 6:15am

    Hello. A drag act it either a fun and sometimes silly yet fabulous spoof on women..Just women in general, it has no specific harsh feelings towards any gender or community. there are also gorgeous Drag queens and I know many that are in many Drag pagents, they work hard at it and also I must state that many are some of the best female impersonators I have ever seen. So hey..Drag Queens and their shows are amazing, remarkable and believe me, lots of hard work and great costuming goes into them. I adore female entertainer and drag shows and Drag queens, many are my personal friends and also my clients, after all I am a fashion designer ! If you have ever been to a fabulous Drag show…You will know exactly what I am saying, they are so darn entertaining and so much fun.

    1. By saying it’s about women, just women in general you are attempting to abstract away the fact that a MAAB is always present and virtually never passes. If it were about women and only women why are drag queens male? What is the reason for this exclusive maleness and MAAB crossdressing? I think you are attempting to abstract, in thought, something which is impossible to abstract away irl. It’s simply erroneous and does not correspond with reality to say this is just about women.

  77. Drag queen performances are the black face performances of the transgender community. They are deeply offensive, sexist and contribute to trasphobia

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