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Gay policeman found not guilty of rape

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  1. I don’t think we should speculate too much as there may be a re-trial. I hope that Carter is able to rebuild his life and those who falsely accused him of the offences he has been found not guilty of either are prosecuted or receive the health support they need.

    1. …. and those homophobic newspapers who had front page banner headlines should be forced to have retractions and apologies on the same page and at the same size as their gloating accusations.

      1. Unfortunately they were very carefully worded and merely said that he had been charged/accused etc which is all factual. I do think morally he deserves an apoology – but I suspect he wont get it

    2. Sister Mary Clarence 16 Jun 2011, 9:09pm

      I think we should speculate here. (In my view) the ‘sexual assault’ charges where just used to embellish the case for the charge of rape.

      I didn’t read the entire transcript of the trial but I did read the evidence from one of the ‘sexual assault’ so called ‘victims’ who stated very clearly that he didn’t want to press charges. The accused was known to him and he seemed to consider the touching of his groin or bottom to be nothing more than friends fooling around. How this could ever morph into a charge of sexual assault I cannot understand.

      The rape charge has always looked like the accuser had second thoughts after cheating on his boyfriend. Even the prosecution accepted that the accuser appeared to be kissing and cuddling Mark Carter on the way back to the hotel, when he claimed to only have his arm round Mark to hold him up because he was so drunk.

      1. I havent read the transcripts and there may be a re-trial so would be careful to comment, but if it is as you say and the “victim” who alleged it was friends fooling around and did not want to make a formal complaint to police – then I would be curious to know who in West Yorkshire Police led the investigation and who oversaw the Serious Category Crime review and log that authorised pressure to be put on people who did not believe they had been assaulted to make a complaint. Potential complaint to IPCC I would think!

        1. Sister Mary Clarence 16 Jun 2011, 9:49pm

          Mr Smith asked the man why his boyfriend had sent him messages that night calling him names and calling him a “cheat”.

          The witness said: “He had said something about me kissing Mark and I was really angry with that because I would never do something like that to him.”

          But Mr Smith showed the court a video of the man and Carter outside the hotel room kissing.

          Stu, there is so much here if you trawl through it that suggests inconsistency in the “victim’s” story and as with the above, this must have all been present prior to the decision to go to trial.

          Aside from the horror that it was put Mark Carter through and the destruction of his life and livelihood, the investigation and the trial must have cost a fortune and I get the public interest point that you make, but that’s probably a few hundred thousand that would have been much better spend on investigating other crimes, that did actually occur

          1. I would still be reluctant to voice opinion until looking thorugh the transcripts and the court service have decided if a retrial is necessary. However, if as you describe then there may be grounds for both an investigation into the propriety of West Yorkshire Police’s investigation and whether any of the alleged victims have commited acts of perjury etc.
            There clearly is a public interest issue in cases of this nature but you are correct that it will have caused a considerable police, CPS and court expense and if perjury has occurred it may be in the public interest to seek prosecution due to this

          2. are court transcripts publicly available?

          3. @AdrianT

            For some cases the courts service does make them available – I am unaware if they have in this case

      2. Even if he WAS kissing him, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t rape. I mean – it has been proven in a court of law that it wasn’t, but you would be jumped on for saying that if it referred to a woman. However, the fact that it contradicted his statement…well, that’s why the policeman was cleared I suppose!

    3. Sister Mary Clarence 16 Jun 2011, 9:15pm

      If Carter WAS so drunk that he needed a arm round him to be keeping him up then what the CCTV appeared to show was the ‘victim’ taking advantage of Carter, and possibly he should have faced some action for that, unless of course he was giving false testimony in court of course.

      There are also questions over why the physical evidence did not match the accusations either.

      I sincerely hope that the victim that never was gets charged with making up a pack of lies about this poor guy and sent down for it. As things stand, he can sink back into obscurity though while PC Carter has had his life and his career ruined.

      Carter stated in court that he was devastated by the charge, and I can fully understand he must have been. I’m sure he is very relieved now that it is all over, but in the days and weeks to come he has still got to come to terms with the long term impact of being falsely accused of rape.

      1. How can a man who is so drunk to stand even be able to “drag someone into a hotel room by there hair and rape them” surely if you can’t stand you can’t do alot of things definitely not rape.

      2. I have some sympathy with your views but I dont know anything of the case and that is looking at facts in isolation which in situations like this is often dangerous

        1. Sister Mary Clarence 17 Jun 2011, 4:09pm

          There has actually been quite a lot of coverage of the trial and there does seem to be a strong pattern of irregularity in verbal evidence supplied by the accuser (I’m not calling him a victim anymore … not even in inverted commas), although the physical evidence has been fairly consistence in that it didn’t support the evidence supplied by the false accuser (I’m going to add the word ‘false’ in future I think as well).

          I was interested to read as well that his colleagues were very supportive of him through the trial, which makes you wonder who lead the witch hunt.

  2. It is sickening and sad that there are vile creatures out there who would make up a story of being raped.

  3. “…he said the gay scene was “bitchy” with “drama queens who make things up”.
    How sad but how true.

    1. and it must stop…………..! I am very glad he is innocent.

  4. I’m glad he’s innocent. Every time I saw that advert on Pink News about dating a policeman, I thought: “What, and be dragged round the room by me ‘air?” But I’m very pleased that an innocent man has been declared innocent.

  5. This is really strange. Surely the CPS should have gone to trial on a rape charge ONLY if there was physical evidence of a rape (and not just a verbal claim). And surely his defence amounted to more than an accusing the alleged victim of being a “drama queen that made things up”???

    1. As a former sexual offence liaison officer I used to be very surprised at the lack of consistency on which rape offences were taken to court and which were not.

      For a case to be brought to trial it must meet certain standards:
      1) There must be a realistic prospect of conviction
      2) It must be in the public interest
      3) There must be a case to answer

      Often in cases where it is one persons word against another (as in most rape cases) where there is reinforcing evidence such as CCTV, witnesses to circumstantial events, forensic evidence etc then the CPS will decide to prosecute – although they do not always.

      I suspect the public interest test was passed on this case because a) they were serious sexual offence allegations b) they were an abuse of trust to an extent as the alleged offender was a police officer and c) to avoid accusations regarding gay related issues not being dealt with.

    2. Spanner1960 18 Jun 2011, 11:59am

      Over 80% of rape cases never go to court because it is one person’s view against another another and there are no witnesses or evidence.

      1. @Spanner1960
        Sometimes that is a prosecution decision, sometimes it is a decision of the complainant that they are not prepared to go to court.
        There is also the evidence of the vast number of cases that do not even get to the police.

  6. Just because he was found not guilty does not mean he is actually innocent and the offences did not happen.

    1. That is true, Steven

      It means the prosecution did not prove beyond reasonable doubt that the offences occurred.

      In English law however, an individual has a right to presumed innocent until and unless otherwise proven – therefore in the mind of the law he is not guilty and innocent.

      1. absolutely – it sounds like ‘steven’ wants to re-establish the Inquisition!

      2. Actually the “innocent till proven guilty” was removed a few years ago. One of the silent gems of the last government was to replace this with “If it could be believed that the defendant had committed the crime….” Effectively this transferred the burden from the prosecution to prove the case, to the defence to disprove the case. One of the most fundamental precepts of English law: gone.
        Particularly with sexual offences, they also removed the need for corroborating evidence (such as dna, witness etc). At the end of a trial a judge had to instruct the jury as to whether there was any supporting evidence (or not) to a sexual offence. This was removed, so that essentially it could come down to one person’s word against another.
        These two things were done to make it “easier” for victims of sexual crimes to come forward and improve conviction stats, which it did in part. What it also did was allowed miscreants the opportunity to make false accusations, and gain convictions.

        1. @Daniel H

          I understood that the change in the burden of proof was only a proposal and related to only certain cases.

          There has never been a need for corroborating evidence in English law – if a complainant was convincing and magistrate, judge or jury were satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that a defendant was guilty – that was deemed sufficient – but may have been subject to appeal for obvious reason.

          I may be wrong as I have been out of the criminal justice system for a number of years but that was my understanding.

          1. Hi Stu

            Sorry – I should have said, the corroborating evidence related to sexual offences only. At the end of a trial, the judge would give a direction as to whether there was any corroborating evidence or not. This was removed under the Sexual Offences Act a good few years ago.

            It doesn’t affect criminal cases in general per se. I was as horrified as you to find it out, as I saw it as a fundamental shift for the worse.

        2. @Daniel H. I appreciated your explanation about the substitution of the “innocent until proven guilty” clause. Over the years I have become increasingly discouraged by public reaction to allegation of a sexual offense. If a person has been assaulted it is a traumatic inexcusable without justification. We do how ever live in a society where a person especially one with celebrity, sexual assault can be the damaging vehicle of vengeance. Innocent or guilty the accused will not have a voice until there is a trial. In the interim the police will release photo’s or press bulletins to either build a case or court public opinion and distaste. The accused innocent or guilty will now face prejudice from all walks of life, loss of housing, be denied employment. face harassment or physical assault. property damage, family life or business destroyed, their integrity for ever questioned. Emotional despair financial ruin. Innocent verdict gives only freedom not reparation.

          1. The outcome of the trial against Mr. Carter is the one I personally hoped to hear I wish for him much happiness in the future.

    2. In every real sense actually it does.

    3. Think what you have just said and change it slightly,

      Just because someone is found guilty does not mean that they are actually guilty and the offences did happen. Do you think all the people who are locked up are innocent?

      That leads us to a justice system which Stu intimated guilty till proven innocent ! not a nice system.

    4. @Dave G

      A judicial system of guilty until proved innocent would be a horrendous thing.

      I certainly did not mean to suggest otherwise …

      1. Drama queen!

        1. Explain, planetpmc

    5. Just because someone has been convicted of a crime in a court of law does not mean they are innocent either. My brother has been fighting to clear his name after being falsely accused of sexual conduct in front of a minor whilst on duty as a copper. He spent time in prison and is still fighting a system that is stacked against him. We have irrefutable proof that he’s innocent, and yet still we fight the system.
      The BIG problem with sexual crimes cases is that someone can make an accusation, need no proof and now gain a conviction easily. So whilst the little slut who accused my brother (after accusing police 8 times previously, having convictions for prostitution etc etc) gets all the support from the state, my brother is dealing with the loss of a job he loved, having served a prison sentence, being a convicted sex offender, being hounded by the police at his every turn, the collapse of his marriage and not being allowed to see his son.
      So yes, this story is close to my heart.

      1. that first sentence should read “guilty” not innocent

      2. @Daniel H

        I am not going to comment on your brothers case as I know nothing about it. I do accept that miscarriages of justice occur – thats partly why we have an appeal system and the Criminal Cases Review Organisation. I appreciate its not a simple system and that it often is stacked against an individual.

        As someone who has both investigated sexual offences and is a survivor of rape, I am all for making it easier to convict someone who has committed serious offences. That said, it must be true justice. The offender must have committed the offence. Yes there are severe difficulties in giving evidence as a survivor of sexual assault and we must do all we can to make that a less traumatic process – it is almost like being raped again. However, it would be false justice if someone was convicted and then released because it proved to be a miscarriage of justice – that would be a worse failure from the system.

        1. Never a truer word spoken Stu! I won’t comment on your personal circumstances, but to say that I hope you got justice for the awful crimes you faced.

          Sadly the system is in need of total reform. Making it easier for victims (genuine ones) to come forward sadly made it easier for the system to be abused, and in fact the appeal courts are overloaded with miscarriages of justice in sexual crimes. It’s horrifying.

      3. Pink Pasty 17 Jun 2011, 8:54am

        @Diane RE: Your brother. The only support network in the UK for those falsely accused of rape. ‘Rights Fighter’ may be able to assist or support your case. http://www.daftmoo.org.uk/mooforum/forumdisplay.php?18-Help-and-Advice-Falsely-accused-of-rape

    6. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 7:57am

      Steven
      But in the UK the law states you are innocent Until proved guily.
      This jury found him innocent and not knowing all the facts to this case i think it’s important we abide by the jury’s decision.
      To do otherwise makes us no different to the likes of the Daily Mail.

  7. He must be very relieved. There are some sad people in the world if they’ll accuse someone else falsely of rape.

    1. I suspect he won’t be fully relieved until he knows if there is to be a retrial

      Must be a tense time for him

      There are some very disturbed people and I wonder whether the motivation here was jealousy, money from selling to story to the media in the future, revenge or … whatever I am pleased that a man who has protested his innocent repeatedly has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers

      1. Sister Mary Clarence 16 Jun 2011, 9:53pm

        I think in light of the testimony that has been given in court and the fact that the prosecution having spent an arm and a leg chasing nothing, there will be no further attempts to prosecute.

        Jesus Christ if the police were to go around prosecuting every gay man that touched another gay man’s @rse in a club when they had a skinful, they’d be no one left in the clubs.

  8. I find it hard to believe that a man can rape another unless more than two people were involved or the “victim” was forced at knife or gunpoint. Makes no sense.

    1. @Robert

      As a victim of rape (and having prior to this investigated rape) I can understand why you might think this.

      I used to think that if I was ever attacked I would fight the offender off tooth and nail. I thought I knew plenty about how to both defend myself physically and legally that I would be fine.

      When it happens everyones experience is different, but I froze – I was ashamed of myself that I froze but thats what I did. I blamed myself afterwards for freezing. I felt such shame and such guilt and its not helped by well meaning friends telling me I should have done this or why havent I done that …

      There is a recognised condition called rape trauma syndrome that demonstrates how we respond at the time and after to the psychological trauma.

      I switched off and disassociated myself from the event as though it had happened to someone else.

      I am a survivor of rape and I would not wish it on anyone but I also feel false reports are wrong and disturbed.

      1. Sister Mary Clarence 16 Jun 2011, 10:03pm

        I’m sorry to hear that mate. I hope its something that you’ve managed to deal with that that time has at least started to heal a little.

        1. Thanks. Its a process and I have a good support network.

          1. jamestoronto 17 Jun 2011, 3:59am

            Like you, I am a survivor of rape. There were several things not in my favour. Age – I had turned 13 and he was in his thirties. Size as well. And trust. He was the husband (and father of 4 kids) of an older cousin. He should have been protecting me not violating me. Similar to your situation, I too froze. It was as if I wasn’t really there. This was many decades ago. Support systems did not exist then especially for male victims of rape. I buried the secret inside me for way too long. Were it to happen to-day I am certain I would deal with it in a totally different manner. But no matter how one handles it, the memory of it never goes away. People who cry ‘rape’ for the hell of it should be severely prosecuted. They walk away scot-free while the real victims of rape suffer for life. Mark Carter’s life has been totally destroyed. There is nothing that the courts could do to him that society and yellow journalism hasn’t already done.

      2. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 8:10am

        As yet another survivor of rape I agree with what both Stu and jamestoronto have said.
        Unfortunate enough to have gone through it twice once at 14 which is bad enough and again 25 which left me with HIV.
        I can’t tell how much you loose trust in people even to a point those around you.
        Surprisingly it is the one when I was 14 that has been left with me most after having a breakdown shortly after because of the homophobic bullying I suffered at the school I was attending at the time.
        I was fortunate enough to have had two social workers who were brilliant though and helped me piece my life back together.
        It was also the time I decided to ‘come out’ to my religious parents so not ideal time to drop the bombs but hey ho it was done.
        -

      3. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 8:15am

        When I was 25 however I didn’t get that support on the same scale but my partner certainly was my lifeline and for some reason when I became ill several months later and discovered I have HIV I realised I had no choice but to deal with it as there was no way I I was going to let HIV rule my life.
        -
        Saying that certainly times of the year I can suffer greatly becuse of the earlier ‘event’ but I wouldn’t have gotten through them without my man.
        -
        So to be on the recieving end and to be falsely accused, I imagine would be just as horrible, just as damaging.
        Thats why I think rapists and those that falsely accuse should be treated the same and when convicted should have the same sentence.
        -
        Both damage lives.

        1. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 8:21am

          When people say “Oh why didn’t you fight back” they don’t take shock and fear into account.
          The first rape was via knife point which did actually cut into my neck but the second was I just went limp because the strength was overwheming.
          I am constantly amazed at how rape victims are treated by people just have never experience such violent act.
          Very often the victim will go through I deserved it even though there is no way you did but people I had, “Well you must have done something”…
          -
          I think the biggest shock was when I’d left school and was working and the subject came up and I said about men being raped to in which the response was “Don’t be stupid men don’t get raped!”
          -
          I’m not sure if is just ignorance or just people living in denial but very often society doesn’t help.

          1. Wow, I thought I’d had a tough one to deal with. Good for you for dealing with it so well.

          2. @Eddy Two

            What little I have heard of Jocks story has always inspired me with his dignity and sense of balance about things that could have overtaken him with bitterness and negativity. I don’t know Jock personally but from what I read on here; he presents himself with integrity, honesty and clarity and I value his contributions.

            I am sure that like all of us who have had to deal with significant psychological trauma he has times of bitterness and despair and I am certain it is a difficult process at times – surprisingly so at times.

          3. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 10:47am

            Thank you both eddy and Stu.
            -
            I think my fella would be the first to tell you that the certain aspects of the first one haunts me to this day and remains a dent in my confidence with others.
            When I have my moments I appreicate I’m not the easiest person to live with but nevertheless he sticks by me.
            -
            The second on was a bit more tricky in that I remember the reaction of the first and the hurt it caused so have been very cautious about who I tell.
            Nevertheless finding out I had HIV kind of put what happened behind me because I had to deal with the issue at hand.
            I actually told my parents the day I found out which is when I broke down but felt I came to terms with it much quicker than most.
            I’d spent a lot of my time helping HIV help centres in London in the early years of HIV and had met lots of good people but lots of bitter ones too and I was determined not to be one of those who let HIV rule their lives.

          4. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 10:48am

            -
            I think people need to know that men too do get raped and its affects are just the same as anybody else but for some reason society doesn’t want to accept this goes on.

          5. @Jock S Trap

            I can empathize with some of your comments and whilst I know our experiences are undoubtedly different because each is different, I can see some correlation with my own experiences.

            I must say one of the things that infuriates me most is a repeated use of the female gender by the media and politicians when referring to survivors of rape and sexual assault – almost a sense of denial that male survivors exist.

  9. I hope he is able to pick up his life and career, after the nightmare he has been through.

  10. What is sad is that this will have put un-told stress on Mark’s life and the deviants who made the false accusations will get no action taken against him. Furthermore the internal affairs department of his force who undoubtedly brought the case to trial will now hound him at every turn looking for any slight error or where he didn’t tick a box. Said department will be pissed that they failed to secure a conviction, so this poor lad will now face a witch hunt.
    Fight em Mark, fight em.

    1. Professional Standards are a nightmare if you are a cop and you prove the system wronged you – I know that

      1. I always thought the term “Professional Standards” was an oxymoron, particularly when it comes to the “Y department”. Mind you, unsurprising when it’s filled with “officers” that couldn’t do the real day-to-day job.

        1. I can understand your views on Professional Standards – having been investigated them several times as a police officer – If I had investigated any of the crimes I dealt with in the manner they did I would have been laughed out of court.

  11. Thank God. Everybody know that the police who do not like anybody even gay police set them up to look bad so they can make trouble for them. The Christians even do this now make people they do not like look bad. They are using psych ops or psychological warfare against their enemies real and imagined. Be on the look out for these people, especially Christians who are police or in government as well as the Christians on the street.

    1. forget to take your tablets today?

    2. Slightly hardcore on the christian front there…. Calm down mate

  12. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 7:50am

    Have to wonder why someone would make up such serious allegations.
    Rape has an effect on most people for the rest of their lifes in one way or another but to falsely accuse someone is equally as bad.
    -
    I remember several years ago my brothers ex wife did exactly the same thing because he came home early to find her and her neighbour at it.
    It was several weeks before she admitted she made it up because she didn’t know what else to say but what does that do to the people who actually do go through rape?
    -
    To go through rape is horrific enough but to be forcely accused too is just as damaging.
    Both end up damaging trust, both should be treated equally as a crime.
    -
    I hope he can rebuild his trust again and get back to some kind of normality.

    1. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 7:51am

      Meant falsely not forcely.

      1. Someone who cheats on their partner and then cries “rape” has to be about the lowest.

        I hope he will be prosecuted if there is evidence.

    2. I thought the exact same thing, if you make a false allegation of rape surely you know when it goes to trial that the truth should out (in an ideal world) and you’re left having made false allegations and being exposed as a liar. Its just so bizarre.

      1. I guess that depends on how good you think you are at telling lies ….

      2. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 10:35am

        There is a difference though and it could only be those that we found out to be lying because there are plenty of people who even if the person is found innocent truely believe they were raped and I think it would be cruel to punish them on top of that.
        If someone truely believes they were raped they have to live with that freeling for the rest of their lives and an innocent plead will make life worse for them.
        It’s a sensitive issue but there does need to be a line draw across those using falsely to make excuses and those who genuinely know in themselves they were raped.

  13. I don’t kinow the details of ths case but I do know Mark Carter’s name.

    Why don’t I know the name of the accuser?

    Carter’s life has been ruined and his reputation destroyed. Yet the accuser carries on as normal?

    In cases like these I think teh Dutch have a better approach – anonymity for both the accused and the accuser until after a verdict.

    Alternatively the name of the accuser should be published along with the accused.

    That’s only fair.

    1. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 9:24am

      Yes, I agree.
      More does need to be done because everytime someone falsely accuses someone else of rape that softens the seriousness of another who has actually gone through it.
      -
      It seems to easy to brand round the word but they never think about the consequences.
      -
      I am surprised how many people on hearing about a rape crime resort to the falsely accused stories and not the fact this person has actually been raped.
      -
      Too many times the rape victim is seen as the criminal.
      -
      Stories like this one do no favours in bring those guilty ones to justice.

      1. Its a really difficult one.

        I agree that survivors identities should be protected.

        I agree that when someone is prosecuting for perjury, perverting the course of justice or wasting police time that their identity should not be protected.

        What happens for those cases where a false allegation is made and it is not in the public interest to prosecute?

        Why does the alleged offender not have anonymity until and unless convicted?

        1. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 10:16am

          I agree that an alleged offender should have anonymity until they are charged but you comment:-
          -
          “What happens for those cases where a false allegation is made and it is not in the public interest to prosecute?”
          -
          Are we to let off people for falsely claiming rape just because it isn’t in the public’s interest?
          -
          So meanwhile a life has been ruined and the accuser set free.
          -
          It wouldn’t be right to say that about a rapist, there would be outrage if someone said oh “it’s not in the public interest to prosecute.”
          So why is it acceptable for someone to falsely accuse?
          There needs to be punishment for both or we’ll continue to have low sentencing for rape crime and it weakens the very crime itself if people can make the false accusation and get off with it.

          1. Jock S. Trap 17 Jun 2011, 10:19am

            I do of course mean those that admit they falsely accuse not in case where the defendant has been found innocent.

          2. @Jock S Trap

            I’m not an advicate for not prosecuting for false accusations. I do see a case that by prosecuting those that make false accusations there is a discouragement for genuine survivors to come forward to police (and I know this to be true from my time in the police). The process of reporting and court is horrific enough and puts most survivors off from making a formal complaint – to face the prospect of arrest for a false allegation when they know their experience is real genuinely does prevent some coming forward.

            Personally, I think that failing to stop falose accusations is also a discouragement for genuine survivors but I dont believe any research has been done in this area.

            The reality is that some false accusations are deemed to not be in the public interest to prosecute and public interest is a key test for CPS prosecutors in deciding whether to take a case to trial or not. Sometimes they are deemed to be a deterrant to genuine complainants, sometimes ….

          3. … there are other genuine reasons for not prosecuting such as health reasons etc.

            Prosecution clearly should only happen where either the alleged victim (I deliberately do not use word survivor here) admits lying or there is clear evidence of false reporting – purely because an accused is found not guilty is not sufficient to prosecute.

            I err on the side of prosecuting the majority but its never going to be a fail safe system for either scenario – genuine rape or false report – by the very nature of the offence.

      2. While I can see the case for the accuser being kept anonymous I think common justice suggests that the accused should also remain anonymous unless found guilty. It goes against the grain that the accuser can remain anonymous while shaming the accused – more like something out of the 16th Century Venetian Republic.

        The name of the accuser should only be published if they are found guilty of making false accusations.

        Otherwise genuine rape victims could end up being doubly punished where a “Not guilty” verdict results simply from lack of eviodence.

        1. That makes logical sense and emotional sense to me, Caspar – hopefully one day it will make judicial sense too

  14. I cant believe you guys actually believe that this guy is not guilty.
    1. There is smoke without fire.
    2. There was more than one allegation
    3. he said the gay scene was “bitchy” with “drama queens who make things up”.
    Not that I disagree with this statement, but he chose to be a part of it by participating in one of the bitchiest and shallowest competitions in the world.

    I’ve been raped twice in multiple occasions by different people and I’m still overcoming both experiences, one that happened very young. I wish I’m brave enough to stand up against these people, but maybe someday I will.
    My sympathies are with these brave people who stood up against this hypocritical monster, and hopefully justice will be served.

    1. Sister Mary Clarence 17 Jun 2011, 4:23pm

      You present a good case … ‘There’s no smoke without fire’

      So working on that basis, anyone accused of anything should be locked up because they must have done something.

      I see your point … after all, he did kiss someone else’s boyfriend, so karma and all that, he had to endure 6 months of a false rape allegation hanging over him and endure a lengthy trial.

      And again I take your point about the hugely exploitative Mr Gay UK, anyone taking part should be locked up, clearly.

      If we were giving out prizes today for the most stupid, baseless comments on here, you’d win it hands down you tonker

    2. @RJ
      As a survivor of rape myself, I do see how difficult it is to report rape. I strongly believe that survivors should be supported and assisted in complaining (where it is the right thing for them as an individual). I also passionately believe in the presumption of innocence and am aware of numerous cases of false allegations (which have been admitted by the person alleging rape or have been proven by myself or former colleagues when I was in police to be false). It is for this reason that I believe false reports undermine justice and belittle the system that seeks to protect and support those who survive rape.
      Duplicate allegations can be for a variety of reasons – conspiracy, pressure from investigators, lies – or because they are true (but that is not always the case).
      There can be smoke without fire in terms of criminal allegations.
      Whether someone was Mr Gay UK or Ambassador to the United Nations is irrelevant in whether they commited rape or were assaulted.

    3. @ RJ, echoing Stu’s comments really. Having gone through a sexual crimes case where my brother was accused of THREE counts. One failed when it was proven that he hadn’t actually met the woman concerned, and that there were 4 other officers in attendance. The second failed because he was proven to be arresting someone 23 miles away at the time of the alleged offence (again had never met the woman).
      The third had no evidence against him, and the prosecution actually proved that he didn’t have time to commit the offence. He was innocent of all three, yet was found guilty in the last case. Sadly, police officers have to deal with regular false accusations of sexual crimes, racial crimes and violence, because the scumbags being arrested fight dirty.
      I don’t diminish your personal circumstances, but for every genuine crime, there are 10 times as many false accusations. It’s a sad sad country we live in now. I’ll fight any genuine monster, but I’ll also defend the innocent.

    4. RJ, it sounds like you need help. Making sick, unfounded, nasty comments about people you do not know will not make things better for you.

  15. Peter Gregory 17 Jun 2011, 3:35pm

    I wonder if thjis prosecution was the result of internal politics or homophobia?
    Secondly, in the case of gay rape, on a different subject from that covered in the trial, there are varying degrees of rape, methinks. How about a guy with a big cock who pins you down then shoves it in without a condom after it all started consensually? Result: huge bleeding, piles, ripped skin and HIV?

    1. @Peter

      Rape is rape.

      Yes there are different methods and outcomes – but all are vile, all are about power over another person and all result in psychological trauma.

      Rape is rape.

      Your comments are as vile as some of those Kenneth Clarke made recently.

      1. There are most certainly different degrees of rape otherwise ‘why’ would there be different degrees of sentencing. Kenneth Clarke is the 1st Tory I’ve ever agreed with, unfortunately his comments attracted knee jerk reaction. I actually contribute to the only website in the UK for those falsely accussed of rape. Be assurred that the trauma & emotional damage to those falsely accused (& their family’s/friends) is every bit as destructive & devastating as rape & I speak as a victim with personal knowledge on both counts.

    2. Jock S. Trap 18 Jun 2011, 10:13am

      “there are varying degrees of rape”
      -
      So wrong!
      You devalue the crime and clearly mock those who are raped.
      -
      Clearly a comment from someone assuming and not knowing the facts.
      Shame on you.

  16. Martin Lawrence 17 Jun 2011, 5:14pm

    I wonder if anyone can help on this. I have sat on a jury, and witnessed several other trials. In every case the judge has studiously avoided the words ‘reasonable doubt’ in instructing the jury. He has told them instead that, to convict, they must be ‘sure’, on the basis of what they have seen and heard, that the defendant is indeed guilty. No mention no doubt or reasonable. Does anyone know how this phrase came into the language?
    If so, please email me on martinlawrence@dunelm.co.uk
    Thanks

    1. @Martin
      The judge is asked to speak in everyday language to instruct juries so is advised to avoid the use of legal jargon.

    2. A combination of the Access to Justice Act 1996, and the associated Lord Woolf report on the same subject required language used in courts to be more accessible and easy to understand, particularly avoiding latin legal terms, and other technical language.
      Also, there has been a shift (unfortunately I can only generally pinpoint it to criminal law changes circa 2000) away from reasonable doubt towards this idea of a jury being “sure” of the guilt of the defendant. It’s subtle but it’s fundamental.

  17. The statistics about people lying about rape are the same as people lying about other crimes – gbh, burgalry etc. yet the rape conviction rate is extremely low compared to other crimes (because most survivors don’t feel strong enough to go to the police, because the media loves to focus on ‘wrongly accused’ cases).

    Personally I do not understand why the survivor would have lied about the rape – the gay scene doesn’t exactly frown on promiscuity, and surely to have slept with mr gay uk is a bit of a ‘result’ anyway?! so what motive would the survivor have to lie?…
    we know how corrupt the police force is!!!!

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