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125 complaints over EastEnders gay bed scene

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  1. If the scene would have been suitable for a heterosexual couple, the it is just as suitable for a homosexual couple. Simple as that. If straight couples are seen in bed together then I see the complaints as having no merit at all.

    1. Jock S. Trap 14 Jun 2011, 3:25pm

      Exactly.
      I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out those 125 people that complained belong to a certain Christian group in an orchestrated campaign.

      1. ooer missus 14 Jun 2011, 3:33pm

        Or if it was a handful of people sending out virtually the same email.

      2. Which is why everyone should contact the BBC and say good things when there is a gay scene/story/program to counter the homophobes. And also not forget that if 5-10% of license fee payers are gay, can we really say that 5-10% of programs have gay representation? I don’t want to be labelled as being negative again for saying that. I’m not being negative, I think it’s WONDERFUL that the BBC have responded to the complaint like they have. But we are not represented enough on TV.

        1. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:17am

          Can we really say that 5-10% of programs have gay representation? – No, for sure. Stonewall has a publication “Unseen on Screen” on this absence of LGB characters from our screens. But not only that, the story lines too often involve one character (or both) dying tragically within a short period so that the script writers can consider the gay story line ‘dealt with’ and move on. It’s very unlikely a gay couple will become a mainstay of a soap, just getting on with their lives; that would be too ordinary!

          1. @Dan

            But it is improving and we have a long term gay character in Coronation Street. Regular gay characters in Emmerdale, Eastenders and other dramas.

            Its not enough – but it is better and the increased prevalence of gay characters has been key in increasing acceptance within the UK of gay people.

    2. Spanner1960 14 Jun 2011, 6:55pm

      Valksy: “If the scene would have been suitable for a heterosexual couple, the it is just as suitable for a homosexual couple.”

      Exactly. I don’t think TV should be showing any overtly sexual content before the watershed. It’s not that it was gay, it simply shouldn’t have been shown.

      1. @Spanner1960

        It wasnt overtly sexual, it was two men in bed – a peck on the lips after a cuddle … clearly they could have just had sex – but in the setting it looked more like they had just woken up – and that it was no more indecent than that – not that it would have been indecent ….

        Gay men share beds together, straight couples share beds together … they cuddle and kiss occasionally … children won’t be shocked by that

        1. Spanner1960 15 Jun 2011, 2:10am

          Stu: That is your opinion. I for one would not want that sort of material shown to kids if I had any. Whether it is gay or straight is irrelevant. Call me an old fogey but you wouldn’t have seen things like that between a married straight couple in a PG rated movie 30 years ago.

          1. David Myers 15 Jun 2011, 10:19am

            This isn’t thirty years ago and similar scenes between heterosexual couples are common before nine pm. Therefore it is not inappropriate. Maybe you are a prude?

          2. @Spanner1960
            So would you want to see a heterosexual couple waking up in bed and sharing a peck and a cuddle – would that be acceptable to a child?
            If the answer from you is no, then I think you’re a prude – personally.
            If the answer from you is yes, then there is absolutely no reason why gay men can not be shown in an identical situation

      2. Walk past any newspaper stand after school and have a look at kids after school being exposed to hetero filth. It was a lovely, natural scene and kids should learn gay or straight people actually love each other and go to bed. If kids can see people fighting and killing each other they should see other, more pleasant side of life-loving each other.

    3. Agree with you @Valksy 100%! I get offended more by things like these 125 complaints than I do any bedroom scenes! And because of people like those 125, we’re far more likely to see a man and woman naked than we are 2 men or 2 women. I say if these people are going to file complaints over a same sex relationship being shown in a bedroom scene then they need to complain over ALL bedroom scenes. Otherwise they are just hypocrites.

  2. The BBC are absolutely right in their repsonse on this. There are no grounds for treating portrayal of a homosexual relationship diferently to that of heterosexual one. Besides, at ten years of age I would have been in bed by 7.30…..just because something is before 9pm doesn’t mean that parents are devoid of all repsonsibility for what their children watch, nor does it mean that we all should be watching children’s tv either.

  3. Good on Auntie Beeb for telling the complainers where they can poke it!

  4. damn, 1 in 5 people have a problem with seeing lesbians and gays on tv. thats worrying.

    1. but 4 in 5 dont.

      Is your glass half empty or half full? I would lay money on those 1 in 5 being majority male.

      1. True 4 out of 5 is appealing.
        I would bet the majority of those 1 in five are right wing and religious.

        1. I agree with that too.

          I need to get complaining more. Next time I see Ian Beale snogging or any kind of bedroom antics involving Pat I’m complaining!!!

        2. @Scott

          4 out of 5 is good

          Most religious people I know are not worried or concerned about peoples sexual orientation or the portrayal of sexuality in the media (provided its done appropriately to the story and time schedule etc). Most homophobes I know have no faith … but my experience may be different to others …

          1. @stu Certainly different to my experience. ALL the homophobes I know are people of faith.

      2. If you watch Eastenders then you’re a glass half empty kinda guy or gal. Eastenders trades on miserable stories about miserable people.

        1. I think I have only ever seen 3 episodes … It does usually strike me as a negative programme

          I do think the BBC response to the complaints is fantastic

          1. Stu, I feel Eastender’s worldview is limiting and it’s negativity is cumulative. After a few years watching people shouting and backstabbing each other you may well feel drained.

    2. It’s not a problem, these people just need to find the remote and take their heads out their arses.

    3. Jock S. Trap 14 Jun 2011, 3:26pm

      Clearly 1 in 5 need to grow up and start living in the real world.

      A minority though good for the decent 4 in 5 that are fine.

      1. I had a problem with same sex kissing when I first saw it 30 years ago. It takes this kind of exposure to bring folks ’round.

  5. Eastenders is close to real life….. I must be expecting amnesia a car crash killing off all my family or my evil twin brother coming back from the dead any day now!!! No but seriously good on them for sticking to it why shouldn’t we see gay men on tv it’s not like they where having sex they wer just cuddling.

    1. Cuddling is a realistic portrayal of life ….

      and its great to see the BBC trying to reflect gay people honestly and standing by their decisions

      1. no cuddling is a a realistic portrayal I was just saying that people coming back from the dead etc isn’t

        1. Fair point, Hamish

    2. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:19am

      Eastenders is close to real life – what world do you live in then?

  6. “I’m not a homophobe, but ..” Groan.
    .
    Good for the BBC for sticking up for this.

    1. God damn the formatting on this site! The 8221 was supposed to be an ellipsis . . .

  7. I was infuriated too by the scene- two fine looking fellas in bed and not a glimpse of a knob or ass. I’m sticking to my TRIGA collection from now on.

    1. Jock S. Trap 14 Jun 2011, 3:28pm

      Well they are closer to real life than Eastenders….. :)

      1. I would like my life to be a bit more Triga like lol

        1. Stu, I’m here anytime you want if you’d like to put that thought in to reality! Hell its the only reason I’m on Pink News. I have my cap set on James! -ever since his ‘clown’s pocket’ analogy I thought that’s the guy I want to spend the rest of my horizontal life with. It used to be Spanner or Pavlos, I can never tell those two apart, whichever one of them is celibate, but hey I’m not a miracle worker.

          1. Jock S. Trap 14 Jun 2011, 4:04pm

            Prehaps the people at Triga should write a storyline for Eastenders?!

          2. It would be more plausible than their regular storylines. And half the female cast could pass for some of the roughtest guys I’ve met in the roughest backrooms around Vauxhall. Sonia for starters. A face like a bag of hammers.

          3. @CMYB

            Its an option

            horizontal life is important … as are other things lol

          4. Please dont tell me you look like a bag of spanners though

          5. Face of an angel, mind of a sewer Stu, it that ticks any of your boxes you know where to find me.

          6. Ticks a few boxes lol ……

          7. @CMYB

            Actually, I don’t know how to find you lol

          8. Jock S. Trap 15 Jun 2011, 4:00pm

            Oh for Heavens sake get a room your two!! :)

          9. Jock S. Trap 15 Jun 2011, 4:01pm

            Sorry It cut off my smiley face…
            Damn software, cheap was it I wonder?

            :)
            :)
            :)

          10. I’m feeling very techno phobe … I dont know how to contact anyone directly on here

  8. Just been reading about this on the Daily Mail website and the majority of readers have been attacking the complaints as idiotic. ho expected that eh?

    1. The Mail always has an axe to grind with the BBC though, so normally its readers follow suit.

      1. Fortunately the comments on the Mail website are normally great fun attacking the Mail for its egocentric and inappropriate reporting (I shall not call it journalism)

        1. In all fairness to them they do print the comments that ridicule their ‘journalism’. They haven’t totally gone down the Rupert Murdoch route and whitewashed anyone who posts messages telling them how bad their news stories are.

  9. Perhaps everyone should contact the BBC to outweigh the complaints.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/

    1. We should all start complaining whenever you see hetero couple on TV

      1. lol. Don’t know if that’s good idea. But you can use the link to say good things as well as complain. If there are only 125 people complaining, and everyone who read this article said something good about it, then the homophobes would mean nothing.

        1. Well thought out Eddy, compliment to BBC sent

      2. Spanner1960 14 Jun 2011, 6:56pm

        Hamish: I thought you already did.

    2. Thank you for great idea. Done.

  10. “We would also point out that same-sex civil partnerships became law in December 2005, giving equal rights to gay couples in the UK. The BBC cannot discriminate by treating gay characters differently to heterosexual characters”

    What’s the CP act got to do with the decision? Does the BBC only show married couples in bed then and the “same sex” description isn’t required, CPs can only be SS….

    CP and equal rights/treatment – I don’t think go together very well anyay

    1. I would argue that for a societal and legal perspective the advent of CPs was key in bringing a sea change in opinion about acceptability of same sex relationships in the UK – whether we are happy with CPs or not is not the issue in the context of the BBCs editorial decisions or justification

      1. My point is that the ref to the CP act is in the same para as the reasoning why they can not discriminate. The CP act has nothing to do why they can’t show SS people in bed together. It suggest that it’s only ok to see SS people in bed if they are in a CP which is completely different to their attitude towards straight people who can jump into bed regardless of being in a respectable marrige or not. It’s the equality act that probably’s stops them from discriminating isn’t it and they should show people equally …if non married people jump into bed together then so do gay ones!!

        1. Yeah but I dont think they were actually saying the CP act permitted them to screen gay men in bed together – they were just reflecting on changes in cultural acceptance and society views and using that as an illustrative piece of evidence

  11. Congratulations to the BBC both on the fair and reasonable portrayal of the story and the dignified and reasonable response to the complaints.

  12. HelenWilson 14 Jun 2011, 3:18pm

    Psychology Today – Homophobic men most aroused by gay male porn, homophobia associated with penis arousal to male on male sex: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn

    A few people watch a TV program and get confused because the sight of two men in bed together arouses them. I find songs of praise insulting but I’m adult enough to turn over when it comes on. If you don’t like two men kissing you can self moderate and turn over the channel.

    1. I was reading a comment of Queerty yesterday about this very issue and some of the American contributors were finding it amusing that the British are grown up enough to recognise that there can be self regulation of what is on TV by changing channel or turning off

      1. HelenWilson 14 Jun 2011, 3:33pm

        Well its not hard is it! If you don’t want children watching two men together them turn it off the parent is supposed to be in control not the child. But these people are too busy getting wasted on cheep supermarket wine downstairs while the child is doing and watching goodness knows what upstairs on the TV and internet. Then they have the cheek to complain because TV companies do not do the the job they should be doing.

      2. @Helen

        Absolutely the parenting decisions and censorship they feel is appropriate for their children should be an individual parenting decision – although I would be concerned if any parent wanted to protect their child from seeing men in bed together …

        I do acknowledge that broadcasters and programme makes have a responsibility in terms of taste and decency – but hey, this was hardly pornographic

        1. I’m more concerned about all the violence and drug use we see than a same sex cuddle in the bedroom! But then, I’m a girl who has homosexual family members and friends and I LOVE reading and watching any compelling story, even those with *gasp* homosexuals! I’ve never watched this show (I’m American, I’m clueless, is it available for the US????) but something like this makes me want to. Just to be able to give a virtual FU to those complainers.

  13. Paula Thomas 14 Jun 2011, 3:19pm

    The only sure thing about someone who says “I’m not a homophobe but…” is that they are a homophobe.

  14. Jock S. Trap 14 Jun 2011, 3:22pm

    Oh for heaven sake.
    Clearly some people need to get a life.

    Lets hope they don’t see Laurel and Hardy or Morecombe and Wise.
    Shocking!

    Just shows how sick bigots are.
    “Oooh look two men in a bed they Must have had sex!”

    Get over it, get ya minds out of the sewers, bigotted knobheads!!

  15. Guess what? Gay and straight people DO sleep in the same bed. Its 2011…grow up already! And you have the right to CHANGE THE CHANNELL if you don’t like what’s on!

  16. I eagerly await the complaints for Max Branning and his girlfriend in bed aswell from these bigots.
    I bet those complaints won’t happen as they did for a gay couple.

    1. Did someone say jumping into bed with Max Branning …. lol

  17. ooer missus 14 Jun 2011, 3:37pm

    Have you noticed how such people often hide behind children to try and disguise their own discomfort and homophobia? It’s shameful.

    1. Agreed. It says far more about their own prejudices than the child’s.

      1. Betcha anything the kids don’t even notice. What are kids doing watching soaps anyway? No cartoons available? Or maybe Mommy and Daddy were desperate to get their daily dose of soap and forgot to tell the kids to go play in the other room.

    2. Jock S. Trap 15 Jun 2011, 4:02pm

      Exactly!
      This has nothing to do with the children just the adults own prejudice.

  18. Mr Chris Jones 14 Jun 2011, 3:49pm

    no one ever complained about Morcombe and Wise sharing a bed….. Get a life idiots…..

    1. Magnum PI and KnightRider knocking boots- I’d sell my soul to the devil to get in on that ‘manwich’!

  19. How about this:

    Many television shows have homosexual references in these days. And so they should homosexual people exist in society (I am one), and we aren’t going anywhere. If people are concerned with what television shows are putting on television, how about you get rid of your television or better yet, not let your children watch these programs. You could probably do the world a favour and just teach you family that being homosexual is not wrong, but but something that exists is society and should be celebrated like any othe rrelationship between two people.

  20. The only reason this would confuse children is if their parents have told them that being gay is unnatural and abnormal. If the parents have taught them that it doesn’t matter who you love, seeing two men in bed would not confuse them any more than seeing a man and a woman in bed. So it’s the parents phobia and they are using their children as an excuse to complain.

  21. Jack Holroyde 14 Jun 2011, 4:03pm

    “I’m not a homophobe but really do not want to see gay men in bed naked and kissing, especially whilst my ten-year-old daughter is sitting with me, before the watershed. Might be socially acceptable to some but there is a time and place and definitely not before nine o’clock, confusing my kids. There was no warning.”

    If you need a warning so you can protect your kids from LGBT people, you ARE a homophobe.
    “I can’t be racist, all my slaves are black!”

    1. Well said ….

  22. If the child is confused. Do what you l;should do with any topic. EDUCATE HIM!!!!!

    1. Dead simple. Children are ‘confused’ when they are prompted to question the simplistic and prejudiced world view that the complaining parent has tried to feed them, or when they ask things that just make the parent feel discomfitted.

  23. (excuse me if I am mentioning the wrong scene – I’ve never watched EastEnders before)

    I was babysitting my 8 year old neice when this scene came on the television.
    Her parents are a little homophobic so I was a bit worried, but she just came up to me and said:

    ” Those men on the telly are going to get married.”

    I asked her what she though about that, dreading the response. She made my day when she said:

    “It’s their lives. If that’s what they want to do then they can.”

    1. Fabulous – heart warming …

  24. I guess these Christian bigots are quite happy to see ‘real men’ on TV fighting or killing one another in Afghanistan etc. There is always the ‘off switch’ if they are so uncomfortable. In these days of equality they are going to have to get use to seeing love and affection between same sex couples.

  25. bearshaped 14 Jun 2011, 5:12pm

    If my memory serves me right I believe there were thousands of complaints when ‘Colin kissed Barry’ in Eastenders back in the 80’s… I see 125 complaints and the BBC’s responce as very possitive.

  26. it’s just 125 nobodies.

    125!! That’s 0.00002% of the UK population. Why give these people publicity by even running this story?

  27. Don Harrison 14 Jun 2011, 5:33pm

    Such hypocrites going back in time here are just two examples of men in bed together –

    Laurel and Hardy – Early to Bed. ?Written and filmed May, 1928.
    Laurel and Hardy Sleeping Together

    Morecambe and Wise
    The pair starred in three feature films during the 1960s-The Intelligence … Together Morecambe, Wise and Braben were known as “The Golden Triangle”. … of comic partners sleeping in the same bed that started with Laurel and Hardy. ..

  28. I would suggest children are in far greater danger of being confused, not to mention misled, by the kind of parents who complained. As the risk of outing myself as a viewer [;-)] it was a quick peck of the lips not a full-blown kiss. The whole matter was, I would argue, handled with both good taste and sensitivity … if anything the scene was perhaps too short!!! ;-)

  29. Don’t forget Bert and Ernie – and on a CHILDREN’S programme no less! The horror.

    1. Or a line in one of those Noddy books that went “Noddy woke up feeling a little queer”. If I had a quid for every time that happened to me…

      1. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:30am

        As I recall, Big Ears was a bank manager who found Noddy wandering naked in the woods, as you do, took him home, as you do, gave him dinky little blue shorts and a red shirt, as you do, and then the cap and bells; and on top of that gave him a little yellow car. Now if that is not a suggestion that kids should go for a wander naked in the woods, I don’t know what is.

        And there’s also, so I was once told, a book called Noddy and his Magic Rubber which involves the said rubber jumping up and down in his pocket etc. etc. I must re-read my Enid Blyton to see whether I missed out.

        1. And this wood was where again?!

  30. Jonathan Savell 14 Jun 2011, 6:55pm

    this is the exact show which was complained about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blk8IC5xX6I

  31. Get over it Christians, time to let the truth out. I am a gay Christian who slept with my brothers in the same bed and some of them are gay. Get over it, men sleep men and girls with girls. It is none of your business what people do in their beds. Everybody knows it happens or have done it so stop with the religious nonsense, we all know where you have been and what you have done. It is not a crime to love another person. Stop making it one or you will end up in jail one day, LOL.

  32. Have to ask… would these parents be happier if the scene had been a teenager and an adult of the opposite sex in bed together? If so, then they really have messed up priorities!!

  33. This kind of thing serves to remind us that we shouldn’t be complacent about the homophobia that still infests our culture. Why we have to be on guard to protect our rights. The sight of two men in bed together generated 125 complaints from and audience of millions – yet the BBC feels this is significant enough to note. I love the unintended irony of the protesters who start with “I’m not a homophobe but…” And then go on to tell us exactly why they are. It sounds as if the scene they were complaining about was a bowdlerised version of what we would see for any mixed gender couple in bed – which in itself belies the BBC’s response that gay people aren’t represented any differently from heterosexuals.

    1. By way of contrast, I turned on Waterloo road the other day to be confronted by two opposite sex teenagers locked at the lips. It went on for about half a minute to the point where it put me in mind of one of those nature programmes where you watch an adult bird trying to feed its chick a worm. I wonder how many complaints there were about that? If I had to guess, I would estimate around 0. Although if it had been the two lads from the short-lived gay teen story line earlier in the year the Daily Mail would probably have spontaneously combusted.

  34. well I guess they are right. Two men in bed are tooooooo hot to handle, they could confuse so many “straight men” who don’t want to fall in temptation.

  35. “There was no warning.”

    LOL. Yeah, because the EastEnders Christian and Syed storyline only just started didn’t it? Some people need to seriously grow up and come out of the 1950s.

  36. I hate Christian Clarke (John Partridge) with a passion, hes a typical bunny boiler homosexual who hasnt quite got that being a homosexual is just a small part of a person, you dont and shouldnt live and breath your sexuality.

    1. The strength of your comments, James suggests that this has more to do with your feelings that whether any guy is defined by their orientation or not.
      It would be a boring world if we were all the same.
      I must admit I am a guy and I happen to be gay but I have no problem in other guys identifying themselves as GAY guys …

  37. These parents should be GASSED for letting their kids watching these dire soaps that are certainly not aimed at children.

    1. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:32am

      Rather an extreme response, surely?

  38. Just read this again and seen that the BBC is quote as having said “We would also point out that same-sex civil partnerships became law in December 2005, giving equal rights to gay couples in the UK.” There is nothing “equal” about Civil Partnerships.

    1. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:32am

      A point which so far the public has not yet bought

    2. @David G

      I agree. I think it was a well intentioned comment though perhaps from someone in BBC PR who is not fully connected to gay politics. A little polite reminder of the difference might make them consider the difference. That said, the motivation I am convinced was to be supportive of LGBT people.

  39. and seeing two straight people in bed would confuse young children any less??

    1. Dan Filson 15 Jun 2011, 2:33am

      Hilda and Stan Ogden would be enough to turn any child off matrimony for life.

      1. There are worse – Hyacinth Bucket and Richard?

  40. jamestoronto 15 Jun 2011, 4:07am

    Please correct me if I am wrong. Aren’t soap operas, by their nature, adult-themed? Don’t know of any that are “suitable for children – either by physical or mental age.” British and Euro soaps are a couple of months late here, so I won’t see this one for a while but from the sound of it my 8-year niece will say “So What” Don’t know about Europe, but in NA, ALL soaps are on in the afternoon – noon to 4:00 (16h). There is more sexuality or hint thereof, usually straight but not always, to be seen before the dinner hour than after. After 9:00 (21h) those of us over 21 – or – 18 – or – 19 (depending) are permitted to watch ADULT TV full of blood and gore, with guts spilling into the street. Now! That is progress. See what your kids are really missing?

  41. My perspective echoes what many have said; if heterosexual characters are doing it in that time slot, then gay characters should be able to as well. As well, whenever I hear people complain about something that offends them on TV, I wonder if they’ve forgotten that they can change the channel or turn it off.

  42. Religion is child abuse on it’s own. All religion.

    1. Where is religion relevant in this particular thread?????

      1. Most complaints come from twisted, righteous, religious hypocrites who can’t use their own mind and repress their own youth in the name of some ancient writing. Tread enough?

        1. Not my experience of homophobia – most of the homophobia I have experienced has been from people without faith (although I do recognise I have had some homophobia from both Christians and Muslims)

  43. That comment in the article makes me laugh. Well, pal, if you’re not a homophobe like you say you are, then you should have no trouble explaining to your 10-year-old daughter that it’s perfectly alright for two men (and two women) to love each other and have a normal relationship like a man and a woman do. I’m sure she’ll be able to understand. Children are smarter than we give them credit for. They certainly aren’t born homophobic. Three guesses as to where they get the belief that “being gay is wrong” from.

  44. I have to endure Eastenders and have no choice. I saw that particular scene and thought it was very sensitively done.
    Not too long ago, when the character ‘Stacy’ was leaving the progamme, they showed her gatting shagged on the bonnet of Dot’s car by the father of her brat whilst said brat was sitting in the car.That was a much more graphic scene. Even someone who’d led the most sheltered of lives couldn’t have failed to know what was happening. I don’t recall there being this much fuss over that episode.
    A typical case of double standards applying.

    1. Fortunately I dont have to endure Eastenders … but that sounds like clear double standards …

  45. Jason Brown 16 Jun 2011, 1:49pm

    Confusing her kids? It’s a fairly simple concept: Some people are gay, true story.

  46. It’s odd sometimes – I don’t know any “homophobes”, no one I know has any issues with gay people in theory, but when they see it in front of them they become really uncomfortable. I watch Brokeback Mountain with my housemates and some of them squirmed and were visibly distressed my even the slightest gay images.

    They never treat me any different to anyone else, so they clearly aren’t strident homophobes, just saying a lot of otherwise perfectly tolerant people freak out when they see two same sex people being affectionate.

    P.S. I’m not trying to justify the complaints, just saying it may not be the orchestrated hate campaign some others have suggested.

  47. Pantastic Pan 11 Nov 2011, 8:00pm

    Well I know that I have seen Heterosexual couples snuggling in bed and kissing with shirts off on soap operas here in the USA for 40 years so whats the problem??? I had to deal with them so it’s our turn to have the same freedoms. It’s about Dam time

  48. I would ask those who feel ‘uncomfortable’ watching gay scenes on TV to ask themselves ‘why’ they feel uncomfortable? Could it be because you are uncomfortable with your own sexuality? Recent research in the USA and Netherlands clearly points to latent homosexuality being at the crux of homophobia. Homophobia = gay and in denial

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