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New memorial to gay holocaust victims to be built in Munich

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  1. “Until now, there was a consensus not to establish differentiation of victims on monuments or monuments.”

    Well, there is a difference. Paragraph 175 wasn’t removed until 1969, so gay people incarcerated continued to suffer long after the camps shut down. And anyone who visits Dachau, would see how other other inmates brutally treated anyone carrying the pink triangle, they were even abused by the Jews, and were considered the lowest of the low, even in the camps. The survival rate for gay men was lower in Dachau than other political prisoners (by up to 50%), and were usually placed under “triple camp discipline”. They also were usually isolated and ostracised by other political prisoners, so lacking any shred of support that might exists from other inmates. And were subject to appalling experiments to “convert” them.
    .
    .
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    And they think we don’t deserve to be recognises differently?

    1. Will I agree , there does need to be a consensus on who was a victim. We need to establish clarity, and not neglect that systematic extermination of people in the concentration camps, was not only the murder of millions of Jews, but also homosexuals, gypsies, mentally ill people, and any one else who fell short of the Narzi ideal.
      .

    2. You are so right Will. Long overdue memorial in Munich. Maybe they will even begin to mention us every year on holocaust memorial day. And to think their are still places in the world where they still kill us because we are gay. Shame on the muslims in the middle east.

      1. I read an account of a gay man’s time in a concentration camp, he survived because he was needed by the gestapo to keep the accounts, who wrote his only allies were the gypsies.

        Lest we forget.

  2. Thank you, Will. I didn’t know all that. I think it’s time I got some books on the subject.

    1. I rather like the idea that the new memorial will be situated where the Black Fisherman used to be.

      That way it will also serve to remind us of the German Gay Liberation Movement of the 20′s.

      Gay Studies are so much more available now, and we need to identify sources of homophobia and challenge them day after day.

  3. Jock S. Trap 31 May 2011, 3:10pm

    An important memorial to remember those who suffered so we should never forget the horrors this war created.
    The horrors that showed the very worst of humanity and it’s why it is so important Never to forget.

  4. Dan Filson 31 May 2011, 3:27pm

    Is there anywhere a single database of all the persons put into Dachau, whether or not they survived? I wish to search for a particular name

    1. Dan, try having a look at this, I had heard they were trying to do something like this, but never looked into it personally. This site might give you some clues:

      http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/holocaust/0050_DachauIndexing.html

    2. Yad Vashem maintains an (incomplete) listing. You may wish to contact them.

  5. Thank you Thomas Niederbuhl.

  6. what a surprise the CHRISTIAN democrats oppose it!

    1. Well they ARE religious,. And all religion at its core is divisive, and defined by hatred. So what do you expect?

  7. The anti-gay hatemongers would do it again if they could get away with it, people like Rich (the unoriginal). Not just so called christian right wing nutters but many islamic and jewish extremist right wingers, believe me. The latter has learned nothing from its own history. They all have one thing in common, religious bigotry perpetrated by straight males, responsible for much of the world’s ills including genocide.

    1. Mark Brown 1 Jun 2011, 4:51pm

      “Not just so called christian right wing nutters but many islamic and jewish extremist right wingers” Yes, in the Bible it does say that people who commit this ‘sin’ should be executed, but this punishment has never, not even once, been carried out under Jewish Law. There are too many obstacles, you need to be caught in the act by more than one person, who will have to warn first (twice I think actually) before this can be carried etc. as fire and brimstoney as the Bible on its own may seem, rabbinical commentary over the centuries softened the blow through all sorts of requirements that need to be met.

  8. Cpt Kibbles 31 May 2011, 6:47pm

    the holocaust seemed to be taking the writings of Martin Luther to the next logical step (not to be confused with 1 of the greatist civil rights leaders in history) that is his later stuff, its weird his early stuff seemed quite sympethitic to them then slowly evolved to seeing them as evil and needing to be killed if they couldnt be converted to christianity

  9. Spanner1960 1 Jun 2011, 12:50am

    I know I will be attacked for this by some, but this was nearly 80 years ago. It was a terrible and horrendous thing to happen, but isn’t it about time all this was put to rest and people started looking forward rather than back?

    Both the victims and the perpetrators are all dead, and we live in a new era.
    I just wish people would stop digging up old issues and got on with trying to unite people instead of finding reasons to discriminate.

    1. I think its important to remember the past so we don’t make the same mistakes in the future. And its important to remember whose shoulders we are standing on. Memorials such as these give us give us chance to reflect and make us determined that we won’t let the same happen again.

    2. jamestoronto 1 Jun 2011, 4:12am

      “Both the victims and the perpetrators are all dead” – tell that to the thousands of gay men and women who have been arrested, tortured and executed to-day in Iran, Uganda and countless other states who sadly have not got the news about the “new era.” Both the victims and the perpetrators are alive to this very day, they have simply changed location. By your argument then we should not honour the war-dead on Remembrance Day. Remembering is not equivalent to looking back.

    3. “Both the victims and the perpetrators are all dead, and we live in a new era”

      But the lessons of the past are not learned, that’s why a reminder is needed. You only have to look at the Bosnia war to see how concentrations camps re-appeared so easily, despite the “never again” of WWII.
      And what about laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday or Armistice Day, should we stop that too becuase it was too long ago?
      There is a difference between forgiving and forgetting – and memorials like this are about not forgetting how easily we can all end up with pink triangles again.

    4. Spanner How dimb are you? Ever heard the phrase history repeating its self? Thats what happens when you do not remember. And I think you’d find most gay people have no problem with hetrosexual people considering our parents are. Don’t blame the victim you uneducated self hating living cliché. You are so textbook

    5. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 9:14am

      No Spanner we should never ever forget this horrific time, nor those that suffered.
      I think it is cold and disrepectful to even suggest we should forget.
      People have to be made aware of these terrible crimes and I would hope that most would learn from them.
      Your account of perpetrators all being dead is false since we just had another conviction a couple of weeks ago and while those people have breathe in their bodies they must stand accountable.
      Your comment is what I expected from you, someone who lacks the understanding of respect just because with you it’s all me, me, me!

      1. He’s projecting his self hatred onto everyone else. I’m telling you hetrosexual men do not have a problem with gay people. It’s the guilty questioning or the out self haters who we have to watch out for.

        1. Spanner1960 1 Jun 2011, 5:15pm

          Like I have said many times before, I am totally happy with myself. it’s fcukwits like you that get up my nose preaching their own brand of right-on gay rules. Just because I happen to be gay is the only single thing I have in common with you, and most others on here. That doesn’t make you right and me wrong.

          Just because you are gay does not mean you can’t be a complete cnut as well.

          1. …you said it.

          2. Jock S. Trap 2 Jun 2011, 8:48am

            Indeed!
            You fit that mould perfectly!

          3. I am totally happy with myself. it’s fcukwits like you that get up my nose preaching their own brand of right-on gay rules

            Well if you don’t like it fcuk off. Most gay people on this site agree with me

          4. Spanner1960 2 Jun 2011, 7:02pm

            James!: No they don’t. You are as much a troll on here as the ubiquitous Rich.
            You may not like what I say, but I have my supporters and followers as well, and have as much right to say what I think as the rest of the collective sheep on here.

            As I have stated many times before, you lefties try to push a guilt trip on everyone that doesn’t toe the gay party line, so if they are straight, they are obviously homophobic, and if they are gay, they are “Self-loathing”. How about I just think people like you have the moral standing of something that just crawled out from under a rock? I have seen pond life with more backbone.

    6. It’s funny how it’s the politically right wing who always want us all to forget the holocaust and move on. FFS, the gay men who were murdered by the third reich are not even remembered and officially included in holocaust memorial day. So how can we forget?

      1. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 11:37am

        Exactly.
        It’s worth noting that humanity cannot progress if it forgets it’s own history.
        That goes for all within.
        It’s not about remembering those murdered it’s about never forgetting what many of those people went through, how they were tortured, experimented on and how many were isolated from others because of who they were, it didn’t seem to matter that wiether Gay, Lesbian, Jewish, Gypsie etc, they were going through the same, still in that enviroment Gay people were treated yet again differently.

      2. Mark Brown 1 Jun 2011, 4:55pm

        Hehe, how right you are.

    7. Paddyswurds 1 Jun 2011, 11:51am

      @ Spanner…
      …..Those who ignore history are doomed to relive it.
      Of course we should never forget the worst atrocity ever perpetrated by humans on their own kind, although abortion is running a close second.
      Absolutely NOT.
      We should never forget this, the darkest moment is the evolution of mankind. I am shocked that a supposedly gay man should say otherwise. Shame on you!

      1. Spanner1960 1 Jun 2011, 5:11pm

        Yes, and I was expecting everyone to churn out the old clichés about history. I think the plethora of books and media on the subject is never going to allow this to disappear, but sometimes I just think it is yet another politically expedient token that people wave about to make them look good.

        Take the 9/11 atrocity, it will be regurgitated over and over because 3000 people were killed. At the height of the Second World War, the Germans were killing more Jews and others than that on an industrial scale every day for months on end. I am not trying to demean or diminish the scale of the atrocity, but I do think that these things should be resigned to the history books and not constantly rammed in people’s faces. The Cenotaph is an on-going memorial to those that die in wars, but what they are suggesting here is yet another waste of money on a long-gone era that should not be forgotten, be be allowed to rest in peace.

        1. “yet another waste of money on a long-gone era that should not be forgotten, be be allowed to rest in peace.”

          Long gone? I hardly think 66 years is long gone. Its within human memory. And the scale of the systematic and formulaic genocide is hardly something that shoudl be forgotten.

          1. Spanner1960 2 Jun 2011, 7:06pm

            Oh, and “it will never happen again” eh?
            The term ‘Genocide’ was tastefully rebranded ‘ethnic cleansing’.
            Tell this to the Bosnian Muslims, the Rwandans, the Kurds, the Indonesian Christians, the inhabitants of East Timor and many other post 1945 scenarios.

            Genocide still continues, and one more poxy statue is going to make bugger all difference. It is the human condition, and it will never change.

          2. Did I say that? And to address what you think I said, yes it will happen again, hence the lessons of history must not be forgotten, its through edcuation of past atrocities that lead the individual to say “no more”. And when more individuals that say this, it becomes a force. And as for the human condition never changing, if you think that then why bother living. History is full of examples of people standing up to oppression. Humanity is not fixed, neither culturally, or evolutionary.

            I’m sure, Spanner, you’ll be down at the Cenotaph to tear it down, as that poxy block of archaic rubbish means nothing either, if your statement is taken to its “logical” conclusion.

  10. I agree with Spanner.

    Yes the Holocaust was horrific and shouldn’t be forgotten.

    But Holocaust grief in a sense has been fetishised into this all-consuming industry.

    It was horrific and evil. However so too was slavery in the US. Why is there no Slavery Museum in the US?

    Stalin murdered more Russian people throughout his reign than were killed in ALL of WW2 but we don’t mourn those victims in the same way.

    Likewise in China, Mao murdered more people than in all of WW2, but there’s no mourning those victims in the same manner.

    The Holocaust was unimaginably evil, but it trivialises the other unimaginable evils that have happened over history if it becomes the only emblem of evil.

    1. I was going to write a response, but one word suffices to describe your thinking – IDIOT.

      1. So I’m an idiot for thinking that the many more victims of Stalinist persecution or American slavery deserve a LOT more remembrance than they receive?

        Well that’s your opinion.

        I would rather the world focus its attention on what’s happeniing in Uganda; Iran; South Africa etc than memorialising dead gay victims in what is now very gay friendly Germany.

        However if you want to focus on the past instead of the present then I suppose that’s your business.

        ‘Lest we forget’ – what a crock. The victims of Stalinist persecution have been forgotten. The victims of the Armenian genocide have been largely forgotten.

        People and governments never learn from history, It’s a fact of life.

        The Holocaust has been commodified by certain governments so they can ignore their own tragedies (the US and slavery) or so they can continue to punish another people in the present day (Israel and the Palestinians).
        I’m not going to fetishise the Holocaust which seems to be quite fashionable these days.

        1. Sorry David, I do not agree, you need to be reminded of George Santayana attributed quote:- “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

          There are may past atrocities that are airbrushed out of history, agreed. But your logic is we should not remember this atrocity until we remember other ones, is a travesty that lessens the appalling abuses suffered by gay men in the camps.

          If you do not want to remember this particular crime against gay people simply because Hollywood isn’t producing enough slavery movies for your liking, fine, your choice of course, but do not pass such judgement on those who do see history as a teacher, and want to honour those who suffered.

          1. You are (deliberately) missing my point.

            My point is that there is that there shouid not be a hierarchy of suffering.

            Gay people, jews, gypsies, disabled people were killed in the Holocaust.

            These people ARE remembered. Anyone who suggests that they have been forgotten is clearly delusional.

            It is also a fact that the Holocaust is remembered at the expense of other tragedies.

            Which makes a joke of the phrase ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’

            People have forgotten slavery, the Armenian genocide; the genocide of Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians; Rwandans; the 40 million victims of Stalinist Russia; the 50 million victims of Mao Tse Tung.

            The Holocaust is the only one memorialised and fetishised in the way that it is.

            So history is destined to repeat itself.

          2. Paddyswurds 1 Jun 2011, 12:05pm

            @David…
            ……seeing as you are listing atrocities don’t forget the genocide of the Irish by the false famine in one of Europes most fertile countries, ireland, perpetrated by the English. Over 5 million people were starved to death over four years by the failure of the potato, while absentee English landlords shipped millions of tons of food out of Ireland to England.
            It is all very well listing the suffering of man, but this particilar story relates to the attempted eradication of a whole race or races and of the attempted eradication of homosexuality which is claerly an impossibility.
            No, we should never ever forget any of those who have been murdered by politics, religion or in our case sexual orientation.

          3. “My point is that there is that there shouid not be a hierarchy of suffering”

            And you are missing mine. Who said there was? No one here did. Suffering, as far as events go, is not mutually exclusive. Neither is remembering them. You can remember this particular travesty in humanity’s history without lessening your understanding or reflection on others.

          4. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:57pm

            Here! Here! Will!

          5. @Paddyswurds

            I know we rarely agree, but this time I do agree. In fact, how many Irish famine memorials are there in the UK, I wonder? Maybe David can add that to his list of forgotten victims of tyranny. Given the numbers that were systematically allowed to starve, not enough I would think.

        2. Spanner1960 1 Jun 2011, 10:31pm

          ““My point is that there is that there shouid not be a hierarchy of suffering”

          I totally agree: One could feel the loss of a single relative, friend or offspring than the slaughter of an entire nation. One cannot quantify death like the Top 40 charts.

    2. “Why is there no Slavery Museum in the US?”

      Sorry, but the absence of one nations ability to acknowledge past mistakes does not mean we need to forget all past mistakes. These are mutually exclusive.

      1. But the Holocaust has CLEARLY not been forgotten. It is simply remembered TOO much at the expense of other terrible tragedies.

        How many Holocaust movies are STILL being released in the US cinema each and every year?

        How many slavery movies are released each year in the US?

        Seeing as Hollywood is the centre of the US movie industry, I’m horrified that the US seems to be ignoring the genocide of the Native Americans in their country, or their enslavement of an entire race of people for hundreds of years.

        ‘Lest we forget’.

        Oh but we have forgotten all these other tragedies.

        Or are they not as ‘important’?

        1. That is not the point, they are all important. But this is a memorial, in Germany about an atrocities committed by the German government, against sections of their society. We should not lessen that, simply because the US are ashamed to produce movies about their human rights abuses in the past.

          In fact your statement about the holocaust not being forgotten maybe be true if you are Jewish, but the crimes commuted against gay people have been brushed under the carpet for years, even the Jewish people have objected to gay people being remembered. This memorial is about addressing not just the original atrocities, but the unforgivable atrocities that followed in ignoring gay people.

          You are still making the mistake in thinking that we need to remember other worse crimes, before we remember this one. Well, I’m sorry, this one is pretty big in my book, if Germany had won the war, neither of us would be alive to have this discussion, we’d be in a “work sets you free” camp.

          1. But isn’t there already a memorial to gay Holocaust victims in Germany.

            Are you proposing that each village get their own memorial?

            I seriously don’t care if another Holocaust memorial for gay people is never built.

            The situiation for gay people in Uganda is clear evidence that despite people remembering the Holocaust in Europe, that NOTHING has been learned from history.

            I think the islamic belief system is as pathetic as the christian; jewish; hindu etc belief systems.

            The lurch to the right in Europe and the dehumanisation of muslim PEOPLE (as opposed to the belief system) terrifies me. Hopefully I’m wrong but the current atmosphere must be what Germany in the 1920′s was like for the jews.

          2. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 12:19pm

            “But isn’t there already a memorial to gay Holocaust victims in Germany. ”
            That has to be one of the most selfish comment on here.
            So what if there were 25?
            You kind of answer you whole arguement as you go through.
            You state each country and their ‘terrible tragedies’ but then speak about Europe, which a collective of countries.

          3. “But isn’t there already a memorial to gay Holocaust victims in Germany. ”

            Is there a limit as to how many we can have? Really, is there?

        2. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 12:16pm

          David
          Who says those ‘terrible tragedies’ aren’t being remembered?
          They probably are in their respective countries.
          Hitler wasn’t so exclusive to his own people, his own country, which is why this terrible world tragedy is commemorated in most other countries.

          1. Of course these tragedies are remembered in their own countries.

            The Armenians remember the Armernian genocide. The Armenian genocide is not fetishised at a state level in the US in the same manner as the Holocaust, in spite of the Armenian diaspora there..

            The Native Americans remember their genocide at the hands of the white man.The US is the bad guy in that instance however, so oooops – better sweep that genocide under the carpet.

            None ot these tragedies is remembered worldwide in the manner that the Holocaust is.

            Are you suggesting that the suffering of those who died in the Holocaust is somehow more important than the suffering of African people during slavery?

            I fully acknowledge what a tragedy the Holocaust was. But I am not going to pretend that it is the only genocide ever. Nor am I foolish enough to believe that memorialising it is going to prevent another genocide.
            Rwanda and Yugoslavia proved that the Holocaust has taught no real lessons. We allowed those to happen.

          2. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:12pm

            “None ot these tragedies is remembered worldwide in the manner that the Holocaust is.”
            Thats because these were not Worldwide tragedies, they were specific countries, not global.
            The Holocaust affected the whole world.
            Again nobody is suggesting one terrible thing outranks another but people remember what affect them.
            None of those other tragedies are remembered on the same scale worldwide as the Holocaust because they didn’t affect the worldwide community, they affected those specific countries.
            Having said that remembrance Days do get reported for various event that have happened.

          3. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:18pm

            Truth is the Holocaust affect so many people from just about every country on the planet.
            A scale of such horrific crime against humanity Never seen before.
            Therefore because it affect so many people worldwide it is remembered as such.
            I don’t know anyone that was killed by Mao or Stalin but I know of relatives that were tortured and gased at Auschwitz as well as survivors that escaped to live to tell.
            Athough many stay silent.
            But that does mean they necessarily mean more, I guess they mean to those it affects.
            Still 70 years on and people still have the same reaction when finding out about family that suffered.
            Even those that don’t know anyne but hear the facts find it hard to take.
            I think you underestimate the effects of the Holocaust.
            It’s not quite so easy to say “oh some are taking preference over others” when it comes to these terrible events.

          4. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:22pm

            People remember what affects them and what we have as Remembrance here may be different in another country but you have to remember the countries that were involved and why they each feel it is important that the Holocaust must never be forgotten.
            At the end of the day the fact we still talk about Mao or Stalin shows they are not forgotten and never will be.
            However the Holocaust was the most Evil event this world had ever seen, the sheer scale of those involved.
            We must never forget.
            Saddest thing is I fear this history will repeat itself.

          5. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:27pm

            Truth is David I honestly don’t think you know or acknowledge the full extent of the Holocaust, what it was, how it affected people.
            I don’t think you understand the truely horrific acts they were taken out on those people all for the creation of ‘the perfect society’.
            I have the feeling you only know a very small proportion of what actually happened.

      2. Paddyswurds 1 Jun 2011, 12:11pm

        @Will …
        ……well actually there are slavery museums in the US although mostly in northern secular states. The Smithsonian in Washington DC has or had last time I was there, a large section dedicated to both Slavery and the attempted Eradication of the Native American race.

        1. But seeing as the Holocaust happened in Europe, isn’t it a bit odd that there is a full time museum dedicated specifically to the Holocaust in DC, whereas there is no equivalent museum to Slavery; and the Native American Museum there focuses more on Native American culture and food and tradition; rather than the fact that the Native American people were targetted for genocide.

          The reason I believe is that the USA was involved in slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans and therefore doesn’t want to focus on those embarrassing incldents from their past.

          The Holocaust on the other hand happened in Europe; was Germany’s fault and therefore has no embarrassing connotations for them.

          1. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:36pm

            Many countries took in Jews to save them from persecution and lets not forget the many who smugged out people from the concentation camps risking their own lives to do so.
            You say this was just Europe which is why I question your understanding of the true depths of the Holocaust.
            You attitude is cold almost ignorant.
            This was far beyond genocide.

        2. Tell that to David, he’s not happy with them amount.

          1. Yet Stalin killed more people in Russia than were killed in the Holocaust.
            And Mao killed more people in China than were killed in the Holocaust.
            These are indisputable facts.

            I do not understand why you are placing the Holocaust as some ‘world pinnacle of suffering’. Are you not guilty of trivialising the suffering of those unremembered victims

            The methods used in the Holocaust were certainly horrifiic but in terms of scale what happened in Russia was worse.

            Again this is not a supposition – it is a fact.

          2. Who’re exactly denying that fact? No one here is. But does this mean we should not recognise the LGBT victims of the holocaust? I think not.

    3. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 11:54am

      Anybody with an education knows about Mao and Stalin and the brutal regime they created in their countries but that is the big difference David.
      Mao and Stalin killed there own and yes they should never be forgotten and they won’t to many but What happened in Germany is by in large far worse because it didn’t just involve it’s own country. Hitler invaded the countries around him and subequently rounded up all he disagreed with and either gased, tortured, murdered in ways you couldn’t believe because he own belief in making a bigger pure Germany.
      Britain was next on his agenda as we know but because the British did outwit Hitler thanks to our brave troops fighter pilots etc plus Churchill Hitler tried effectively to starve this country into surrender. Had he succeeded exactly the same genocide would have happened here.

      1. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 11:59am

        Either way Hitler’s Actions cost So many lives from so many countries.
        It’s not a case of one Evil event ruling over others, Hitler created a World War that between Germany and Japan slaughtered so many innocent lives that affected just about every single person in the world.
        It’s a war that must never be forgotten and as our own men and women grow older and older the mesage has to be stronger and stronger.
        No-one suggests what Mao or Stalin did was more or less Evil but I do find it insulting how you cheapen the effects of every people who suffered and still suffers at the hand of what Hilter and his men and women did to the world.

        1. And African slavery cost so many lives from so many tribes/countries so what is your point?

          1. African slavery wasn’t intended as systematic genocide though, was it? (You’d be on stronger ground with the German genocide of the Herero.) While appalling, it was part of a system that already existed – the last slave market, operated by Arabs I believe, closed in 1912 – and aimed to make use of, rather than wipe out and steal the wealth of, large numbers of people. Also, to the best of my knowledge, minority sexualities weren’t specifically targeted – I only make that point beause the proposed monument is to a perticular group often overlooked by what you might callt he Holocaust Industry..

          2. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:42pm

            Each you talk about is horrific but you do realise what Hitler did wasn’t just Genocide.
            He wasn’t only getting rid of people he disliked because he disliked them like most dictators.
            He was exterminating whole societies because he believed only their extermination would help him create the German race as a pure, perfect race.
            No imperfections were tolerated.

    4. David. If you want to start memorials for all the other atrocities you have listed that you hold dear to yourself, then go ahead, do it. But don’t try and try and stop gay guys from remembering and wanting others to remember what happened to us in germany during the second world war. Why the hell do you think the color pink is associated with being gay? Because we like the color pink? or because we were made to wear pink triangles?
      If you ask me LGBT do not remember the holocaust enough. The Jews got their homeland back after the second world war, LGBT were still seen as criminals in Europe for another 20 years, and we still don’t have equality.

      1. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:44pm

        Excellent comment eddy two.

    5. Mark Brown 1 Jun 2011, 4:58pm

      I can’t help but smell some anti-semitism here. Self hating Jew or just misnamed? Those damn Jews, they keep exploiting their so-called suffering, is that what you want to get at?

      1. Aaaaaargh!

        Anti-semitism means hatred of jewish people. It does not mean critical discussion.

        1. Spanner1960 2 Jun 2011, 7:11pm

          Precisely. You say a word out of place against Jews, be it religious, race or geographical, and you get every Jew from here to Jerusalem on your back. This is not anti-Semitism, it is criticism. If people want to be recognised as an organised group, then they should also be prepared for the brickbats that will inevitably be hurled at them.

      2. Damn right Mark its pathetic

        1. Just as racists are the first to deny its existence anti semites do the same. they don’t even have the integrity to stand and admit their hatred

  11. How does memorialising gay victims of the Holocaust in modern Germany (one of the world’s most stable, democratic and gay friendly countries) help gay people in Uganda and Saudi Arabia.

    How has memorialising gypsy victims of the Holocaust help the gypsy population of France who are still being rounded up into camps and deported, and who face enormous discrimination to this date.

    How does memorialising jewish victims of the Holocaust help fight anti-semitistm when we can just turn on the news and look at what the religious jewish settlers are doing to Palestinian farmers in the West Bank.

    Memorialising these victims of the Holocaust doesn’t achieve anything except make us feel better about ourselves.

    It has zero effect on the real life of anyone.

    Just saying.

    1. It has zero effect on the real life of anyone.

      How can you say with complete confidence that it will have no effect at all on the citizens of Munich, and Bavaria in general? They have been accused in the past of trying to sweep aspects of their past under the carpet, maybe this will indeed make a difference to a number of people.

      1. I can’t say it with complete confidence.
        Neither can you claim with any confidence that it will offer any improvement to the lives of Bavaria’s citizens.

        The Holocaust was a tragedy. It is over. There are plenty of memorials, commemorating it..

        I genuinely don’t understand the need for any more memorials.

        Germany is one of the best countries in the world to be gay.

        I think the money being spent on this memorial would be better spent by giving it to a Ugandan Gay Right’s organisation.

        Then it could have a tangible positive effect.

        1. Jock S. Trap 1 Jun 2011, 3:46pm

          I would urge you to learn about the Holocaust.

          1. I know about the Holocaust. I have read a LOT about it, including various analyses which describe how it has been commodified and sold in a manner that has not happened with other genocides and tragedies.

            Do you ever wonder why there are still several World War 2 movies released every year? But World War 1 movies are rare. World War 2 has been commodified as the ultimate Good Versus Evil war.
            Hitler is the ideal bogeyman – a racist bigot who mobilised his country and committed mass murder on an unimaginable scale. Stalin on the other hand has not been vilified in the same way. Even though he killed more people. Why is that do you think?

            Don’t you think it could be because demonising Stalin would interrupt our ‘Good versus Evil’ narrative. Stalin was our ally after all. And let’s not focus on the fact that our ally murdered more innocent people than Hiltler did.
            History is written from the perspective of the victors. Hence Stalin escapes the same scrutiny as Hitler.

          2. @ David: I do sort of understand where you’re coming from, but the fact that the Russians and the Chinese choose to ignore the horrific aspects of their recent histories does not mean the same should apply to the people of Munich. After all, we’re not talking about a British monument here, it’s a memorial proposed by the citizens of a city to bring to the attention of other inhabitants an aspect of its past. Shouldn’t that be welcomed?
            .
            In passing I would observe that though there may be what you call a Holocaust Industry in the English-speaking world, the same is not – or was not until recently – necessarily true of Germany.

    2. “It has zero effect on the real life of anyone.”

      Just to you and others who think their personal crusades are more important. Memorials are important, as they educate those who are not like you.

      1. I don’t ave any personal crusades.

        I just think there is plenty of Holocaust memorials.

        And another one commemorating gay people killed in Germany, doesn’t have any tangible benefit to modern day, gay-friendly Germany.

        I’m sure even you will agree that the money spent on this memorial would be better spent on fighting real homophobia in places like Uganda; Saudi Arabia etc.

        1. You miss the point. To acknowledge ones mistakes is one thing, to verbally own them far more progressive. Its called the power of naming. Holocaust history is of particular importance to German, so yes, there aren’t enough. How many memorials for gay victims of the holocaust do you think there are in German? Only three. Hardly the fields of memorials you seem to think there are.

          1. Correction: this is the 5th, not including plaques in concentrations camps. Berlin has two (one of which is a plaque), Cologne one, and Frankfurt one. None of which are towering plinths of extravagance. I hardly think this is considered over-dwelling on the issue, given what actually happened gay men in the camps. And I do not think this detracts from any other memorials to other sections of society that were brutally persecuted and murdered.

        2. Wouldn’t you say it’s up to the Germans to decide that for themselves? I seem to recall quite a lot of resistance to the idea of the first memorial to gay victims, I rather doubt – as Will has pointed out – that it constitutes “plenty”.

  12. Rich (original) 1 Jun 2011, 2:54pm

    Germany made a big mistake when it decriminalized homosexual perverts.

    1. As you can see, a real conversation is going on here, so forgive us if we ignore your stupidity while we engage in more erudite debate.

    2. Would someone at Pink News please pass Rich’s IP on to the police so they can investigate his hundreds of hate comments here.

    3. Rich, still following your death cult I see. You mindless murderous muppet.
      .

    4. Why is that stupid cnut allowed to post here

    5. homophobic and hateful please delete this post and ban the poster. Reported.

    6. Spanner1960 2 Jun 2011, 7:15pm

      Please don’t feed the trolls.
      As long as people continue to reply to this fcukwit, he will continue to post. Leave him alone and he will find some other cage to rattle.

  13. Gay Activist 3 Jun 2011, 3:55am

    We should make sure THIS NEVER EVER happens again at all in all of our lifetimes!!!!!!

    Lest we forget!

  14. The holocaust is well documented, and well remembered. It will continue to be regarded as a warning to future generations. And yet in spite of that we still have genocide being committed, anti-semitism still exists as does homophobia. We can set up as many memorials as we like in our western, more (supposedly) forward thinking countries but it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to any of it. Anyway, if they want to put something up, I can’t help but think that a rainbow flag, symbolising pride and acceptance of the living by the living, would be more effective than a memorial remembering hatred and persecution of the dead by the dead.

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