Homophobia from the Islamic camp is becoming increasingly virulent, particularly in ghettoised areas of London. Unfortunately, I fear we are never going to change the minds of the Muslim community on the issue of our right to freedom, even in our (secular) country, because many fervent believers really do see us as sub-human. The question is, how on earth do we engage in any kind of meaningful dialogue with them that will allow us to live in harmony? As opposed to the mutual hatred that this sort of aggression can only provoke…?
Exactly the same way that we changed everyone elses mind. Even in this country 50 years ago we were mentally ill, 100 years ago, we were sub-human and corrupt evil.
We changed that by being there, and standing up for our rights. Muslims aren’t ‘different’, some of them haven’t lived through 150 years of gay rights history though.
They’ll come round, the same way as everyone else did, and the ones that don’t, get put in the ever shrinking minority bucket of the bigoted and ignored by society, along with the far right and the fundamentalist Christians.
And when they feel as though their viewpoint is being ignored, and that they are being censored and vilified for what they believe… what then? It doesn’t just go away, it tends to get driven underground until it flares up later on.
The UKIP candidate is an Indian lawyer who has made islam a focus of his campaign – UKIP canvassers were subsequently attacked by knife-wielding thugs. http://freedomnewsnetwork.co.uk/making-the-election-about-islam (so much for multi-cultural harmony). As for the LibDems — they won the Bermondsey seat from Labour 30 years ago (when Simon Hughes was in the closet), by drumming up homophobia to ensure Tatchell was not elected! http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-349.html/ The LibDems whining about homophobic smears now is pure Karma.
At lest someone bothered to deliver leaflets even if they are fake! I’ve not had one knock at the door or one leaflet from any party this time around. I had no idea what any of the candidates stood for when I voted today it was pot luck!
Still at lest the Lib Dems can complain to the electoral commission and demand a re-run.
‘Homophobia from the Islamic camp is becoming increasingly virulent’
I think that would be more accurate f it said:
‘Homophobia from the Islamist camp is becoming increasingly virulent’
I’m not sure I understand the distinction.
‘Islamic’ = ‘relating to Islam’.
‘Islamist = ‘desiring to establish civil and legal domination by Islam’.
Sorry about the confusing numbers. They were meant to be ‘equals’ signs.
Yeah I wish PinkNews would sort out these weird numbers thingy.
I think it would be even more accurate if it said “Islamophobia from the EDL sympathisers in the gay community is becoming increasingly virulent.”
It wouldn’t surprise me if these leaflets weren’t put out by the EDL to stir up gay/Muslim bad relations.
Seems like a pretty racist/Islamophobic attempt to exploit stereotypes of Muslims being homophobic in order to bash the Lib Dems….
I think that overestimates the intelligence of the BNP, tbh! It is very possible that parts of the Islamic community are responsible for this. Just like the sticker campaign in London’s East End. It’s really not inconceivable that this was a Muslim orchestrated campaign, seeing as how gay people are treated in Islamic countries.
muslims are homophobic, they don’t need to attempt to prove it, its blatantly obvious.
Not all Muslims are homophobic. But homosexuality is considered ‘haram’ in Islam. It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one. We need allies in the Islamic community to help us on this one; I think it’s best not to tar them all with the same brush.
If a Muslim says that homosexuality is permissible then they are not considered a Muslim.
Islam is a homophobic religion. Muslims (as defined by Islam) are homophobic. Islam calls for the death of homosexuals, THAT is homophobic.
You may not know this, but so do Christianity and Judaism.
Yep you’re right flamineom, all abrahamic faiths are homophobic, in fact all religions are to varying degrees. But do you know of any jewish or christian nations that have the death penalty for homosexuality?
No, they are trying to introduce it.
So are there any?
Leviticus recommends the death penalty for homosexuals. Whether Christians and Jews choose to ignore it, it’s there in the Holy Book to be abused and implemented as any individual believer or country deems it appropriate. The fact that they don’t doesn’t change the fact that the Bible espouses exactly the same attitude.
Yes it does. But what has that got to do with the islam? This is a story about islam. It is you who is apologising for islamic homophobia, saying that islam is not homophobic, when it clearly is and is used to kill gay guys in the world. Why bring up the other abrahamic faiths in the first place? They don’t use that text to justify the murder of gay guys, like muslims use the koran and hadith. Sound like you’re trying to take the attention away from islamic homophobia to me.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never apologised for Islamic homophobia. I’m just saying don’t single out Islam; pretty much all the main religions prescribe the death penalty for gay people in their holy texts. That doesn’t mean all their adherents are intrinsically homophobic. And I agreed, yes, in Muslim theocracies, gay people are executed, and it has to stop. Who’s apologising?
And that my fried, is another lie. Don’t speak abou what you don’t know, I’m muslim and gay, you’re not considered non-muslim if your gay, it’s just seen as a sin. Very few things actually take you completely out of islam, and though some are considered major sins, they don’t all promise eternal hell. If the leaflets were sent to some muslim ghetto in London, then I’m surprised at how good the grammar and such. Also, muslim’s don’t find things that everyone else finds funny, it’s not seen as something to joke about. That was probably done by a non-muslim. All religions, and atheists hate homosexual’s, so, you know.
If you choose to be part of a homophobic institution, then you will be tarred with the same brush as is inherent in its ideology. The only possible allies of lgbt with any personal islamic distinction are ex muslims.
Its not seen as particularly good (ie ‘Abomination’) in the Catholic or Anglican Churches either
This CONSTANT unending tirade you lot do about Islam is really wearing!
In answer to ‘I dont think we can ever change their minds’ – no you can’t – bigots never change until they actually do!
Just like the other commenator said regarding the huge strides that have been made in the UK in the past 50 years.
The issue isnt actually about changing the bigots minds in fact – its about changing OURS. Once gay men and women started standing up and being counted, started demanding their human rights were met, once they started refusing to cowtow to the accepted ‘norm’ and once they decided to act like the healthy human beings that we are all along but for the oppression/repression/suppression we endured THATS when things started changing.
The growing acceptance of mainstream society in the UK (and also EU and USA) is based on seeing the real (so called) normality of gay men and women.
It all starts with US.
Being in the closet ALWAYS feels like our own experience is more scarey/hard/difficult/non understandable than anyone elses. It ISNT. ALL closeting is the same and starts in our own mind based on the oppressive programming we each recieve from family/friends/society/school/media every day. The only way to escape this is to stand up and be counted and refuse to buy into it. Refusing to buy into it is the first step towards liberation. (witness India’s Liberation Movement/Black America’s Civil Rights Movement/Black America’s Nation of Islam/ Black South Africa’s Liberation etc etc etc etc etc.
Freedom comes from people standing up and demanding it not from bigoted oppressors changing their minds and giving it away.
On that particular subject, it never fails to amaze me how many men I know are not out to their friends and family. :(
Uganda dropped the death penalty part of the bill after the west threatened to cut off it’s aid funding.
The only nations that prescribe the death penalty are all Muslim. Nigeria has different laws based on region. I was hoping that it would show it’s not just a Muslim thing, but I was disappointed to find out that the North, where the majority of Muslims live, is where the death penalty for homosexuality exists.
So it’s sad to say, but it really does look like popular interpretation of Islam vilifies homosexuality. I am tempted to say that we should not just vilify Islam, but go ahead and condemn religion for kettling whole populations into ignorance and moral and philosophical dishonesty.
I hope things change with the rise of the arab spring. But I won’t hold my breath.
Hi. I’m a straight muslim and I saw this linked on twitter. I’d just like to say that we’re not all crazy homophobes, and I feel proud in saying the same for the vast majority of the muslims I know.Whoever printed these leaflets is a grade A idiot, because if anything, it promotes the lib dems as the party for equality and respect.
Thank you Asif. Peace. <3
Do you think the teenagers in the link found peace?
You’re talking about the regime of an Islamic theocracy. Many Muslims in this country are here because they’ve fled such atrocities themselves. I think they have more understanding than we give them credit for.
You mean like the Muslim council of Britain………
or the east london mosque? We all know how much they respect the LGBT community.
Would you like me to extend the list which will show how the majority of muslims in the UK are as homophobic as those abroad? Thankfully they don’t have any power.
Stop trying to fool people into thinking islam is not homophobic. Go and read the hadith or koran and learn how homophobic islam is before you defend them.
Qur’an (7:80-84) – “…For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds…. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)”
Qur’an (4:16) – “If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone”
Go and make some Muslim friends. You’ll see they’re not all fire-and-brimstone nutjobs. Some of them even have close relationships with gay friends that they consider brethren. Every society has a noisy and intolerant right-wing faction, even us.
I’ve had, and still have many muslim friends, but thanks for the advice. Luckily I’ve managed to help some of them come to terms with the conflict between their religion and sexuality.
Tell that to the islamic world………….
saudi = death/prison
iran = death penalty
egypt = prison
sudan = death penalty
kuwait = prison
oman = prison
palestine = prison
qatar = prison
syria = prison
UAE = prison/death penalty
yemen = death penalty
afghanistan = prison
pakistan = prison
and the list goes on and on and on……………
sounds to me like the majority of muslims in the world are homophobic.
Perhaps this is our opportunity to create good community relations and make a positive change in the world. Let’s try and make the best of it, and it begins with respect and trying to see things from the other’s point of view.
And then you woke up from your fluffy dream and realised that the islamic belief system is homophobic.
Neither of us is going to go away, Eddy. We need to find a way to co-exist peacefully and, who knows, maybe even learn from one another. Or are you of the view that you’re entirely right and Islam has nothing useful to say at all?
I wish we could live peacefully, but it isn’t me you need to say that to. It’s the muslims that don’t want homosexuality to exist, they being the majority in the world. Tell me one country on the planet where gay people make the laws that make islam illegal? I’ve already given you an incomplete list of the countries where islam is used to make homosexuality illegal. You need to wake up from cloud cuckoo land and realise that islam is homophobic. Or instead of trying to convert me to love a belief system that hates me, go to any of the countries on my list and convert them to love homosexuality. My dislike of islam is born from the belief systems hatred of me. Whereas muslims hatred of me is born from their belief system.
I’m not trying to get you to love it. And I don’t disagree that any country that imposes its religion on all its citizens through the rule of law results in the most disgusting human rights abuses imaginable, particularly to gay people. But things can (and will have to) change, and we have to stand up for our gay brothers in Islamic countries and protest against the death penalty. But to say Islam is homophobic infers that all Muslims are homophobic, which they are not, and it does not help to create barriers.
Islam is homophobic, wether you like it or not. What part of the islamic holy texts that I have posted don’t you understand? Or are you telling me you know more about the islamic faith than the imans throughout the world in the holiest of islamic countries and places that say that homosexuality is wrong? You’re very deluded flamineo.
What do you propose to do about it? Convince them that they are all wrong and try to spread atheism throughout the world? Good luck.
‘Islam is homophobic, wether you like it or not. What part of the islamic holy texts that I have posted don’t you understand? Or are you telling me you know more about the islamic faith than the imans throughout the world in the holiest of islamic countries and places that say that homosexuality is wrong?’
As with all religions religion is up for interpretation so ‘he imans throughout the world in the holiest of islamic countries and places that say that homosexuality is wrong’ only have one interpretation of it which means they are homophobic however there is alot in the Qu’ran about loving everyone and everyone being equal. you are condemning a whole religion because how a few religious leaders are homophobic the popes homophobic does that mean all of christianity is. And I’m not excusing Islamic homophobia however I’m just seeing you cannot judge all religious people by there religion thats like saying all gay men are camp queens.
Turkey – legal since 1858! Muslim Democracies from the list, erm Turkey so Eddy Two, lets tone down the Islamophobia, the prejudice and stereotypes.
Yep, that’s one. Any more? It’s not about stereotypes, it’s about facts. The majority of the islamic world is homophobic. The laws speak for themselves. I wish it weren’t that way, but it is.
When islamic nations stop calling for the execution and imprisonment of gay guys, I’ll stop having an issue with islam. As for prejudice, i think you’ll find its islam that is prejudiced against me (and you).
Northern Cyprus (mostly Turkish after that massive dumb conflict a few decades ago)
P.S. I’ll always have a problem with Islam. Religion promotes the death of reason. That’s important because reason alone can make us reconsider our own prejudices, get people talking, prevent wars, etc. As soon as we introduce religion and “culture”, we get conflicts.
Turkey, and northern cyprus (which is Turkish). Any more predominantly muslim nations that do not have homophobic laws which criminalise homosexuality?
Your comments make me laugh because you don’t seem to know that anti-sodomy laws exist in muslim countries (and other previously colonized nations) because the british introduced it in the first place when they colonized them. Also, just as now we have “the West” saying that “Islam” is sexually repressive, homophobic, etc…back then “Islam” and Muslims were accused of being “sexually deviant” and “uncivilized” (because men had sex with men and it was no big deal, etc…). History is your friend. Or not.
Also, you’re doing a disservice to lgbt muslims. We exist. Don’t claim to understand “Islam’s” stance on lgbt-ness. Unlike the Bible, the Quran never even says men who have sex with men are burning in hell or whatever. Gayness isn’t even mentioned. The Quran is just heteronormitive. Like the world tends to be.
Your self-righteous islamophobia bores me.
Well EDddy as a good Irish Catholic, i think you are a little off course. Remember who abused all those kids over all those years. All those Catholic priests who were kiddy fiddling. They were not good Muslims that were doing all the damage.All those Middle east regimes which were supported by the British establinment lead to the dictatorships which they are. Muslims are no more Homophobic than al the other Christian faiths you refuse to recognise.
What Pope covered over all the abuse. Yes it was a Pope and not a Imman. Thank you very much.
I never said islam was more homophobic than the other abrahamic faiths, so no I’m not a little off course. the news story is about islam, I’m commenting on how homophobic islam is? and because the majority of predominantly muslim countries make homosexuality illegal, i make the claim that the majority of muslims in the world are homophobic. the pope may be homophobic, i can’t stand the guy, but it isn’t illegal to be gay in italy.
Sounds to me like proof of how Evil religion is.
Glad to hear that Asif :)
One of my house mates is also a straight Muslim, and pretty liberal while remaining strong in her faith – her stance is that the only one able to judge is God, and that all people should just accept others for who they are and simply try to better themselves and live life as best they can. I’m agnostic myself, but I admire her for her faith!
She’s told me a few horror stories about people she knows, though, and I can really appreciate how hard it is within the Muslim community to speak out about these kinds of issues. I know for a fact that what she believes and what she talks to me about, there is no way she would ever say those things to her family because she knows how they would react.
So thank you for speaking out!
Thank you, Asif, but I think you folks should be much, much more vociferous about it.
And what will that achieve? What do we want to achieve? (Living harmoniously, preferably.) Taking an aggressive approach will only provoke aggression in return. We need a mature approach to this, not reactionary Pride marches that can be hijacked by right wing nutters on ‘our’ side.
Oops, I thought you meant ‘the gays’. Point still stand tho. *blush* lol
No. We need to look the oppressor in the eye and say, we are here, and we’re staying. It’s not an act of aggression. It’s an assertion, a means of challenging prejudices and ignorance.
A pride party would be a wonderful idea – free of lunatics on left or right.
Marching through a Muslim area with the rainbow flag flying and nipple clamps at the ready will be perceived as an act of aggression, I assure you, and won’t earn us any new supporters.
‘Perceived’ as aggression? Who says? How do you know this? Cowardly nonsense. It probably will by fanatics who want to destroy us. But it won’t by well-meaning people.
Pride is about challenging people’s opinions. That is how it started in 1970s, and we faced abuse.
It isn’t a ‘Muslim area’. It is the United Kingdom, thanks, and the same laws apply. You assume muslims cannot cope with visibility of gay people!
If you are too afraid to stand for your rights – fine, you are welcome not to get involved. But others will. And it will, and must happen. (Nipple clamps??? )
Tuff luck to the Muslims then. Not sure why we’d be wearing nipple clamps… I was thinking more along the lines of showing them that their doctor/school teacher/police officer is gay, etc. We’re not trying to earn their respect, we just want to show them (and everyone else), that we’re everywhere, there’s no escape and they better get used to it. By repeatedly doing this, they will get used to it and, in time, come to understand more about sexuality.
We won’t win supporters on our asses at home.
I was going to say, I don’t know what the relevance of ‘nipple clamps’ is in your previous comment.
What are you talking about, you silly man. Your dogma is no better than the other rants of the Muslim extremists or the reactionary Catholics. Get a faith and begin to live.
So we get to do what we want, when we want, where we want (as it’s ‘our’ country), and anything the Muslim holds as sacred, or whatever it might have to say about it, should be rode over roughshod. Yep, I can see that working out very nicely for everyone involved.
*I meant ‘Muslim community’
You’re very confused about this issue flamineo. The gay community do not want to stop the islamic community from doing anything except hating us. But the islamic community want to stop the gay community from not only loving one another, but existing. Can you see the difference yet?
Who says? That has not been my experience with my Muslim friends, gay or straight. They obviously didn’t receive the memo.
You mean they didn’t get the same memo that the muslim council of britain, the east london mosque, and the other homophobic mosques in the country got, not to mention the memo sent to the saudi, iranian, egyptian, pakistani, yemeni, UAE, sudanese, omani, qatar, etc, etc, etc, governments that lead entire nations to treat homosexuals like criminals and murderers? You make it sound like islamic homophobia doesn’t exist, well maybe it doesn’t in your dream world. But don’t try and brush off islamic homophobia because you’ve got a few friends who are okay with your sexuality. Islamic homophobia exists, its real, its all over the world. And your tiny circle of friends make no difference to the lack of freedom and intolerance gay guys are subjected to through the islamic world. Get real flamineo.
It’s funny how the most reasonable voices get no press attention, but the most toxic (and loudest) make all the headlines — and influence the stereotype — isn’t it?
Flamineo, you sound like a lovely guy/girl. But you’re living in a fluffy idealistic world. You probably live in London? You probably have some cool muslim friends who were brought up muslim but don’t ‘really’ live an islamic life? You want the world to live in peace and harmony and wonder ‘why can’t we all just get on’ with one another? You’re searching for a life with more spiritual meaning than the empty vacuous western world?
But the reality, and not the stereotype (if polls are to be believed), is that the majority of muslims in the UK are homophobic.
I wish it weren’t that way. But it is. Sorry about that. If you are searching for the least homophobic religion though, Buddhism is your best bet.
Surprisingly perceptive, lol. And I know that the majority of Muslims in the UK disapprove of homosexuality; you really are not telling me anything I don’t know. I’m just not clear of what your objective is, or how you propose to achieve it. (I’m a humanist myself, but have a lot of respect for Buddhism.) And, to some extent, I’m sort of playing devil’s(?) advocate to generate discussion. But, actually, I stand by what I’ve said.
My objective is to be honest about things. You have to face reality if you’re going to change it. And to say islam is not homophobic (as you are saying) is blind to reality. You can’t change anything if you bury your head in the sand or stay in the closet. The islamic community need to admit their religiously inspired hate of homosexuals if they are going to learn to love us. And we as a community can do nothing but make the islamic community face their hatred of us – they have to change for themselves. Musclelad23 for example has made his family confront any bigotry of homosexuals they may have had (if they were prior to him coming out), (and if they were), their love for him has overcome their irrational hate of homos. It’s all about the love, but how can you get someone to feel love for you if they can’t even admit they hate you.
I haven’t said Islam is not homophobic. I’ve agreed that it sanctions the death penalty for gay people, and that the theocracies that govern through Sharia law take it literally and sanction the execution of gay people. The majority of Muslims surveyed disapprove of homosexuality, I agree. I am, however, hesitant, to use the word ‘homophobic’ because it means different things to different people. If someone really has a phobia, it’s an attitude of disgust and revulsion to an object or person. Islam certainly does sanction that. but it does so with a great many things that we in the west fail to comprehend because we’ve de-sacrilised virtually everything and, I believe, have lost something in the process. We’ve gained an enormous amount of individual liberty, I don’t disagree, and that has to be maintained. But I do understand why Muslims see the behaviour of Brits on a Saturday night in town and completely reject secularism. It must look abhorrent.
The problem with the other use of the word ‘homophobia’ (i.e. as a legal tool for censorship) is precisely that it shuts down conversation, and means that the Muslim can’t ‘come out’ and talk about their attitudes openly. Rightly or wrongly, I understand both sides. But I think you’re right; we should encourage an open dialogue. But, as things stand, we’re standing in the way of letting that happen. On the other hand, do we let extremists preach that we should be thrown from mountaintops or strung up by cranes?
So according to flamineo- holding a pride event, showing gay visibility is ‘riding roughshod’ over muslim rights.Who else comes out with such stupid reasoning? Exactly – Christian fanatics, the Catholic Church, gay hating placard waving nutters….and Socialist Worker morons.
Flamineo wants to put beliefs and prejudices on a par with rights for people – that is the route to totalitarianism.
By the way, a pride event does NOT stop any one from disagreeing, or acting out their faith as they see fit.
Flamineo is an apologist for hate, backwardness, prejudice, for keeping communities in their ghettoes. He assumes the whole muslim community is against gay pride.
And those who think they have a say in other people’s relationships WILL be ridden over roughshod, because it is none of their business.
Exellent idea Adrian!
And putting up homophobic posters, having ‘Spot The Fag’ contests at Mosques and homophobic preachers openly preaching their hate actually IS an act of aggression and hate.
Yet must we just sit back and accept?
Last time I checked the UK has laws that accept and protect the LGBT community, homophobia is a crime.
That is the WHOLE of the UK.
How is it that an aggressive act against the LGBT community is taken differently?
One concern I and I suspect many have is that we need to see more folks within the muslim community are standing up to the extremist minority, especially when it seems ‘unpopular’ to do so. I’d welcome it if you and others could tell the extremists that too. Speaking ‘truth to power’ is one of the hardest tests of character. Solidarity!
(this isn’t uniquely a muslim issue – think about Jersey during the war. Just look how people are afraid to stand up to a loudmouth on the bus. It’s also the same problem within the Church of England, and with Americans refusing to take on Dominionist Christianist nutcases..)
Muslims being homophobic!, well there’s a surprise.
the line ‘committed homosexuals’ made me laugh, what is a committed homosexual?
Well I’m assuming its someone who’s a fully paid up card carrying gay, not these guys you meet on a Saturday night for a roll in the hay and go back to their wives the next morning. You have to be committed to it I guess they’re saying.
And subscribe to the monthly issues of “The Gay Lifestyle” magazine.
Its the political party or individuals who produced this fake leaflet are the ones who tried to incite homophobic hatred, its not the Muslim population of Leicester, they are as much victims of this deception as we are. Stereotyping all Muslims as homophobes is ridiculous, most of them are moderates and don’t care ether way. Its like saying all gay men wear leather and like George Michael.
Can the EDL hate mongers who plague this site please piss off now!
I don’t believe this was the EDL. To lay this at their door is a conspiracy theory.
I was pre-empting the usual EDL deluge of comments against Muslims that try to use us a justification for hate. Its not the first time this sort of thing has happened, both Labour and Conservatives have had candidates use underhanded tactics before to stir up racial division in constituencies for political gain, just look at Oldham in the general election.
Helen you are so bloody paranoid!
I’m a realist, I’ve been on PinkNews long enough to see the EDL attempting to use us as a excuse to legitimise attacks Muslims.
Helen do you really understand the level of Homophobia coming from the Muslim Clerics. Please explain to me what you are fighting Homophobia or islamaphobia. What is your priority?
I am always amazed at the term “islamaphobia” when it comes to gay people. A phobia implies an irrational fear. Islam, by the dictates of the majority of Islam, is not only homophobic, but aggressively a threat to our lives and existence. There is no “irrational” fear when the threat is quite real, Michael.
You can fight both as prioty. As a gay muslim I get both. And befor you say it’s a choice to be muslim – even if I became an apostate tommorow, my whole family – mother, father, brothers and sisters would still be muslim. And I naturally fear for them in a country that is actively growing less tolerant and more hostile of there existence. It’s horrific and unpleasant. Homophobia from muslim clerics is sickening and upsets me beyond belief. But the majority of muslims in this country don’t listen to clerics on how to live their lives. They simply just get on.
Ok , then lets play semantics. Is “anti muslim hatred” ok with you?
Because it is very real and very frightening.
I think the point Will is making is to do with rational fears and irrational phobias. It is irrational for a muslim to hate a gay guy, because a gay guy means a muslim no harm, therefore they are homophobic, they have an irrational phobia. But it is rational for a gay guy to dislike muslims because muslims really do hate and kill gay guys throughout the world, therefore it’s not irrational, and not a phobia. So a gay guy who doesn’t like islam is not islamaphobic, because their dislike is not born from an irrational fear. It’s born from a reality of muslims hatred of homosexuality.
We assume Muslims are behind, but unless there is proof, then the election should be cancelled and re-run at some point in the future.
I’m a university lecturer. A lot of my students are Muslims from countries like Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I am openly gay and my partner and I have invited these Muslims to my own home, and I have been invited to their homes where they treated me very kindly.
I don’t necessarily agree with Islam’s stance on certain things, and I’m atheist anyway, but I don’t see how it’s that difficult for Muslims and gay people to co-exist alongside each other and have friendships. All it takes is tolerance and respect on both sides.
I couldn’t agree more. Further, in some instances, it also takes us to be the grown-ups and not rise to provocation and insist on peace.
Ever heard of al taqiyya? Now i can see why british universities are recruiting grounds for islamic extremists, with staff as naive as you.
I never heard of al taqiyya in all my years at mosque school as a child. I never heard about it from my parents, or imaans. Infact I was told all forms of lying were totally forbidden and haraam. My mum told me that the shiite believed in white lies to protect themselves but I have no idea if it’s true or not. The first time I heard of al taqiyya was from an edl extremist then researching it myself saw it on loony muslim extremist forums. The idea that all muslims are actively lying in order to turn this whole country into a shariah state is about as ridiculous as the protocols of the elders of zion (many people used that hoax as truth that the jews were taking over the planet). You really need to gain objective thought mate. Although – oh my god – I could be spreading al-taqiyya right this very second!!!! You edl members get more absurd by the day.
yes i agree you are enforcing al taqiyya as i’m not an edl member,it’s not just the privilege of the edl to disagree with islam, and i don’t believe anything you claim to be your experience in the rest of your comment either.
hahhahahahaha. Well what more can I say? No matter how much Insist I never heard of it until recently you wont believe me anyway.. time for you to put your tinfoil hat back on buddy. Perhaps jesus will come save you soon from all the scary bad muslims in the “rapture”.
You’re the one that needs saving from a homophobic sect .Never a muslim in the “rapture” , hate mutilated c**k.
I also had similar experiences at university. By allowing Muslims to get to know you, they get to see that gay people are just ordinary people, and they also improve their knowledge about sexuality and homosexuality. Tell enough Muslims and they take this new found respect back to their country. If you’re lucky you get to bed one ;)
I despair of some of the commentators on this site. The article says that the leaflets were sent to people living in a Muslim area it does not say they were sent by muslims. Of course they might have been sent by Muslims, or the EDL, or the Tories or the Labour party, or martians from outer space. You just don’t know. None of you do. So why speculate in such an unhelpful way? Unless you have evidence of who sent them, just shut up.
Fair point. I guess people are a little scared, and the memory of the recent east end sticker campaign (and the similar discussion it provoked) is still fresh in people’s minds.
But Tom, this is a comment page for people to comment with whatever views.
No-one needs to shut up.
I wonder who did this?
Is there a crazed muslim party in competition with the lib dems? Or maybe it’s the tories.. or labour.
Political mudslinging and dirty tricks turn my stomach.
Having said that, I doubt this was even necessary. The lib dems are well and trully f 00 kd.
Also I don’t really think it is a *disgusting* leaflet. I mean yeah its designed to stir hate. But if the lib dems were well and truly honest they would talk about their support for gay rights on all leaflets no matter if it’s in a muslim area. Although maybe they do anyway and I’m talking crap … i dunno.
Also everyone, be prepared for a visit from our resident hate recruiter/preacher “EDL SUPPORTER” he normally turns up on threads relating to islam to go (lazily) copy and paste crazy – “proving” that all muslims are totally and utterly evil and deserve to be put in internment camps. Hello edl supporter, I’m sure you will have so much fun on this thread today. :)
This has the smell of EDL/BNP all over it. This is the sort of thing they excel at! They want a reaction so their thugs can take to the streets to display their fascist racism. It is clearly intended to stir Islamic anger otherwise it would have been distributed all over Leicester.
Yes, the EDL/BNP would send leaflets to mostly muslim households, so they can get their votes…not. It smells more of a Tory manouvre to push their bedmates over the edge.
…..I think you completely missed the point; either that or you are being obtuse. I don’t think the point of the leaflet drop had anything whatever to do with the election or for that matter the Lib Dems. Their logo just happened to be the one used in this nefarious exercise. The point of the whole thing was to stir trouble for both the Asian community and Gay community of Leicester and indeed further afield. This is just another opportunity , just like the fake “pride” march in the East End and the “sticker” thing.
I’m sure it won’t be the last either. You are being naieve if you think it had anything to do with the elections.
If straight muslims aren’t homophobic, then why have none of the world’s Islamic leader condemned it? Not one of them has. Silence gives consent. I’d like to see a counter offencive by circulating leaflets telling voters that many muslims believe in killing gays and relegating women to second class citizens, among other things.
We should do what France does, ban the burhka in public and I’d go a step further, ban male islamic garb in public too. What they do in their homes is up to them, give them a dose of their own hatred and let them see how it feels for a change.
France does not merely “ban the burkha”. It prohibits all religious headwear in order to promote the secularity of the Republic.
The French law is not a measure of hatred. It is a necessary policy to main the secularity of the public space.
I wonder, are the Muslims of France allowed an equally ‘sacred’ space? Free from people drinking alcohol, women in un-Islamic clothing and gay men kissing and people generally letting it all hang out? It would only be fair, surely…?
yes, its called their home.
Don’t be ridiculous, religion is a choice. You can chose not to wear religious clothing, or not to go out in public if simply being in public is so offensive. But why what other people do is apparently “offensive”is beyond me, as it doesn’t affect the offended party directly, is beyond me. Maybe Muslims need to learn that not everyone is as they are/think, and if they can’t maybe a less secular country to live in might be a better choice, or perhaps a less demanding religion…. they’re all the same nonsense rapped up in different packages.
There we go again with the “us and them” think. Turning all muslims into one monolithic intolerant agressive block. Most muslims simply want to get on with their lives – despite what the sun, daily mail and other tabloids would have you believe.
I disagree that religion is a choice. Many people are born into it. Furthermore, believe it or not, Muslims (as individuals and communities) display a lot of benevolent qualities and values that we in the west used to have, but appear to have lost since WWII.
benevolent, values we’ve lost since WW2? okay now I know you are on medication. what exactly is benevolent about hanging gay guys? putting gay guys in prison? torturing gay guys? if you think the west has ‘lost it’, maybe you should move out to the middle east.
Because that’s all they do. All of them. With no redeeming features whatsoever. You could do with learning a little more about it before tubthumping. I don’t disagree atrocities are carried out in the name of Islam, as they are of any religion (except Buddhism), end even political beliefs, left and right. That doesn’t mean they have nothing of value to say. Furthermore, completely vilifying them only ends in deeper division between us. Surely you can see that?
I know a lot about islam (and other religions), but thanks for the advice. I never said muslims don’t have anything to say. I am talking about the homophobia of islam, nothing more. Though you could do with facing some of the facts about islam and its homophobia before you start acting like community relations officer between the LGBT community and the islamic world.
Lol, well someone has to try and remain reasonable.
“|display a lot of benevolent qualities and values that we in the west used to have”
Yeah, like hanging people for their sexuality. A fantastic lost quality all right. Wake up.
“Many people are born into it. ”
But can chose to refuse it, and let intelligence and reason prevail. Agreed, most people don’t have the brains to see past what dogma they were given.
“despite what the sun, daily mail and other tabloids would have you believe.”
Then by all means show me one mosque or imam that preaches not only tolerance towards gay people, but acceptance.
Funny thing is, I used to say exactly the same things as this. Then I spoke to some Muslims, read a few books, gained some perspective, tried to see things from their point of view, and (though, I’ll say again, the way Islamic theocracies treat gay people is disgusting and we must keep fighting to abolish the death penalty altogether)… I can actually see that the UK (in the state that it’s in as a result of individualistic, celeb-obesses, ME-generation vacuousness) could learn a thing or two about man’s inherent “sacredness” (instead of behaving like animals). Just my opinion, don’t shoot me.
“Just my opinion, don’t shoot me.”
Ironically, if you go to Iran, an Islamic country, you will get shot for out opinions.
Religion is not by birth.
If religion is born how come you have to be taught it.
If it was by birth they’d be no need for religious texts and surely no need for different religions.
Religion is a choice, a lifestyle choice.
Many Choose to change religion.
Many Choose to leave religion.
Many in religion Chose to discriminate and be bigots.
Religion unlike being Gay is NOT by birth.
It usually means children are forced how to live because of a religious agenda.
Personally I think forcing any child into religion is the same as child abuse.
They should be left to make such decisions when they are old enough to understand.
People can choose not to go into public ……. really you try not go into public lets see how long it takes you to go stir crazy or starve from lack of food and water whichever one comes first
“Then by all means show me one mosque or imam that preaches not only tolerance towards gay people, but acceptance.”
Actually theres quite a few. I know of atleast 2 in leeds
> are the Muslims of France allowed an equally ‘sacred’ space? Free from people drinking alcohol, women in un-Islamic clothing and gay men kissing and people generally letting it all hang out?
No. Because all of those activities are protected by the secularity of the Republic. Secularity is the Republic and France is entitled to ensure that the values of the Republic are upheld in all public areas.
> are the Muslims of France allowed an equally ‘sacred’ space? Free from people drinking alcohol, women in un-Islamic clothing and gay men kissing and people generally letting it all hang out?
No. Because all of those activities are protected by the secularity of the Republic. Secularity is the Republic and France is entitled to ensure that the values of the Republic are upheld in all public areas.
I am fed of homophobic Muslims (aka almost all Muslims).
These people are ignorant and follow 7th century desert laws.
Forget it not … this country still follows its own version of the same archaic “desert” laws.
It;s shocking and disgraceful that LibDem candidates should be subject to dirty tricks
That leaflet includes “wil make sure gay marriage is legalized.”
It might fool a few Muslims, but I think it’s unlikely to fool most Pink News readers.
The Lib Dems went decidedly cool on gay rights in 2009. Possibly they thought it would make the party more appealing to the Muslim community. Clegg didn’t even mention LGBT issues in his 2009 party conference speech, and as I’ve mentioned previously, the Lib Dems didn’t endorse Gordon Brown’s statement about Alan Turing.
Do commenters realise that some Muslims are gay themselves? And many more are allies. Way to alienate part of our community. I think I’m more disgusted by comments here than the article. People playing dirty in politics is not surprising. Readily alienating part of our community, and doing so with judgemental racist/Islamophobic comments, blech. I am disgusted.
What percentage of British Muslims can be described as ‘our allies’?
1 or 2 in a 100? I am looking at the OVERALL PICTURE, and the overall picture is horrifying.
It’s unfortunate that this subject never seems to be publicly discussed without claims of Islamophobia or racism shutting down the conversation. Can we please be open about our concerns and talk about the elephant in the room? How else are we meant to move forward?
We are invisible. gay muslims can be hated by both conservative muslims and gays alike. It is an extremely sad existence at times. Nobody should force us to choose between one identity and the other, but you feel like a ragdoll being pulled with each side spitting at each other.
Its your homophobic faith that wants you to choose between one identity or the other, I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but that’s the way it is. Don’t blame the gay community, gay guys who don’t like islam just have a problem with muslims calling for their death and imprisonment and invisibility based on their religious belief system. I don’t see any ‘gay nations’ that treat muslims in the same way as ‘islamic nations’ treat homosexuals. How’s that sufi whirling going? ;)
Is there any need to be so rude? I can’t imagine how confusing and difficult it must feel to grow up caught in the middle of a culture war.
Who’s being rude? I was continuing a convo with muslcelad that we have had on another thread. It’s rude to ‘but in’ to other peoples convos flam.
Maybe you’d like to send him a pvt if you want a private conversation, lol.
Nope.You are right there. But there are a growing number of far right activists who would happily put me and my family into a internment camp or some other final solution if they were given that opportunity, and are actively recruiting gay people as a matter of convenience. The same people they slag of in private or in football matches. hence feeling torn up. Even if I was an ex muslim I would still feel the same as my family I would still remain muslim and I wouldn’t want them victimized when they are as supportive of me as they are.
I know how you feel, as an ex catholic. It’s very hard to come to terms with your sexuality and religious belief system that you were brought up in, a bitter pill, and then the effects that has on your family – you’ll get over it eventually. I still believe in god (of some sort), and I’m not anti religious, as I hope you remember from other threads, I think all to their own, but keep it to themselves. But you have to face the facts of what your religion does and is. And unfortunately islam is a political religion that is responsible for a lot of extreme homophobia in the world. Also, I don’t think the UK is as bad as germany prior to ww2. I don’t think your family are ever going to be put into camps or that there will be a final solution. And as you know I hate EDL, BNP (even the tories) or any other far/medium right group. But, islam and the majority of muslim nations are homophobic, there’s no getting away from that fact.
Insightful comment as ever eddy, its good to know there are intelligent thoughtful nice people like you on these threads :)
Most of the Muslims I know would shurg their shoulders and bin it.
From the tone of a lot of the comments on this thread it looks like the point of the exercise has been achieved. Unless this site has been taken over by unsavoury elements, the racism being displayed is disgraceful if it is coming from genuinely Gay people.
Why is it that those who yearn for equality, are themselves some of the most voiciferous in the pursuit of being beastly to others?
I’m afraid I don’t see any evidence of racism, as Islam is not a race, it’s a religion, made up of a number of communities from around the world, each with differing interpretations of the Koran.
Nobody has mentioned any individual race. If we were to discuss the attitudes of Catholics or Pentecostalists or… whatever, that would not have the label of racism attached to it. Why is Islam different?
Its not racism. Islam is not a race.
islam is not a race
Flamineo: “I disagree that religion is a choice. Many people are born into it.”
Show me one peer reviewed study demonstrating that religion is anything other than a choice. Whole nations (including this one) have changed religion at the signing of a pen or the drawing of a sword. I chose to use my reasoning abilities rather than succumb to the papist propaganda of my parents. No one is born with a religion. They are raised in a society which attempts to imprint one upon them.
Apostasy is a capital offence in most Islamic countries. There is also the threat of honour killing in a lot of Islamic communities that hold the same values. It’s a lot easier to become an ex-Catholic than an ex-Muslim. I don’t think it’s a matter of a simple choice. Particularly not if you’re brought up to believe that atheism is spiritually unfulfilling and has itself lost its way. (A lot less bloodthirsty, by nature, I grant you, but what you’ve been raised to believe is ‘haraam’ is everywhere in British culture.) I truly wish it was as simple as taking off a jacket.
“if you’re brought up to believe that atheism is spiritually unfulfilling ”
Atheism is the application of reason over superstition. It is the use of intellect over the theocracy of “my religion is the right way so you’ll do what I say” bullsh!t of Islam and other organised religions. And it is far from “un-fulfilling” as you say.
“Apostasy is a capital offence in most Islamic countries.”
Yeah, and you’re espousing the wonders of Islam here? Wonderfully enlightened:- believe the unproven nonsense I do, or I’ll kill you.
You don’t need to tell me that; I’m an atheist (humanist) myself. It is worth trying to see things from the other’s point of view though. That’s all. And, yes, religion is responsible for atrocities that we in the liberal west really struggle to begin to understand. (We seem just as ‘backward’ to them.) But there are also things of value in Islam, and other religions. Though it takes a lot of effort to begin to see it, it’s worth the trouble trying to understand the (virtually incoprehensible) people who share our planet–be they Muslims or American Republicans. If you’d like to give it a go, The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt really opened my eyes.
….obviously Islam is not a race and to keep saying so is childish and only goes to prove that those shouting about it are really only using it as a cover for their racism.When these people talk about “Islam” read “Asian ” because that is the reality of what they are saying. They know that to make openly racist comments would get them in trouble on these pages or with the Anti Hate laws. Disguisinh it under Islam is the way they get round it. If you attend an EDL/BNP meeting it is one of the points they make over and over.
Most of them are EDL/BNP supporters or members.
Paddy, so you’re saying that the islamic countries that make homosexuality illegal based on the religion do so because they are asian, and not because they are islamic? That sounds like you’re the one being racist to me Paddy.
And this coming from our enlightened Paddy who thinks all trans people are just messed up in the head, and homophobic. The fountain of wisdom.
I reckon this all comes from Richard the Lionheart, one of the craziest crusaders ever and a big ole’ gay to boot. Islam has never forgotten…
After all, if some guy in a gold crown, bedecked in jewellery and faaaabulous fur coats kicked me out of my house I might nurse a grudge too.
I do wonder why whoever wrote the pamphlets would want to injure the Lib Dems by playing on Muslim prejudices though; as far as I know King Richard voted Conservative.
I’m not saying all Muslims are terrorists, I’m saying most terrorists are Muslims
You are totally wrong.
….said the man who wanted to kill all gays people, but when confronted, he chickened out like a coward.
Your evidence ?
Rich, your evidence?
Well they definitely are not voiciferous in condemning terrorism, thats for sure.
You still have provided no evidence that religion is not a choice. Just that it can be a difficult one in more oppressive societies.
What kind of evidence are you looking for? Lol. And what do you mean by ‘choice’? If you’re brought up with a strong sense of identity (and Islam often pervades a person’s whole identity from what they eat, to what they do and how they think), to cast that off at the first sight of ‘secular enlightenment’ (many components of which they have been told to believe is haraam)… it takes a very courageous and strong-willed person to do it. Can you prove empirically to me that it is a choice?
That argument would be valid if no one chose to reject their religion, ever. The fact that people do, shows it is a choice. What you’re talking about is society and the difficulty, or refusal, to reject a religion because of social pressures. The fact a choice is difficult, does not lessen the fact that it still is a choice.
Can a muslim chose top be a Christian? Yes. An a christian reject christianity? Yes.
Ergo, to believe is a choice.
I’m not so sure. I couldn’t start believing in God tomorrow, just because I chose to do so. Could you? Surely, you either believe, or you don’t?
When I stopped believing/trying to believe in Catholicism (it’s hard to remember which is more accurate, looking back) it was more a realisation than a choice. But it took a lot of soul-searching and questioning, and exploring a fresh viewpoint, which (let’s face it) most of us just can’t be bothered to do.
I’ve always wondered about people who ‘find’ religion in their adult years. Born again Christians I can understand as they’ve probably had some experience with their faith but people who embrace religion having come from nothing smacks a bit of a midlife crisis or a mental breakdown. Finding ‘God’ is like finding booze or drugs, its just one obsession replacing another.
I suppose people are searching for meaning in their lives. From my own experience, Buddhism is a philosophy well worth exploring, which is supported by recent psychological findings (meditation is VERY good for your mental health and wellbeing) and doesn’t require a belief in any gods! Marvellous.
Being a member of a religion is not always about a belief in god. Organised religion is about power, not faith. Dogma and a belief in god are very different things.
Excellent comment Will.
Religion is only a choice.
A chosen lifestyle.
Wow! So many gay-islamophobes here!
RICH, as has already been explained above. A phobia is an irrational fear of something. Gay guys being afraid of a belief system which calls for their execution and imprisonment is not irrational, its a survival technique, therefore it is not islamaphobic for a gay guy to not like islam, it is completely rational. Muslims fear of homosexuality in the UK however is completely irrational as gay guys do not wish to kill or imprison or do any harm to muslims. Your fear of your sexuality is irrational and therefore a phobia, therefore you are homophobic.
But as you’re not even a muslim, but more probably a BNP supporter with no brain who is pretending to be muslim to stir up hate for islam, perhaps I’ve just wasted my time explaining that to you.
Ignore him Eddy, he’s a mentally disturbed basket case.
Rich, revelaed on numerous other threads how he is a disturbed and violent homophobe, who wants the systematic removal of all LGBT people from the world.
In a nutshell, a highly disturbed fundamentalist Islamist Troll!
Muslims become target of malicious attacks from Western politicians and its people. Systematically fraudulent, lie-making Western politicians created false image of world-known Muslim Osama bni Laden as a “terrorist”, and this was projected on Islam, falsely presenting it as a religion of terrorists. However, Islam is religion of Justice and Peace. Justice rejects oppression, and any country which practicing oppression against Muslims deserves punishment. Punishment is not an act of terror. That’s what Western people still not understands. Also, the call for punishment of the Western oppressors of Muslims in the world is not terrorism either. It is the practice of right on free speech. Western press always made false statement that the press in the Western world is free. That’s absolutely false statement because Western press never publish whole statements to the world which were made by one Muslim, known as Osama bin Laden. That’s my opinion.
“That’s my opinion.”
Who cares what you think. Its boring.
Mate, you are frighteningly wrong about literally everything you just said.
You know that Osama Bin Laden was a self proclaimed enemy of the West, that he organised and sanctioned murder of innocent people, but you say the West “falsely” labelled him a terrorist?
You say that Islam is a religion of peace, and then say that it sanctions “punishment” of countries which oppress it? And by oppress, you mean “malicious” labelling of it as a “religion of terrorists” and the “false” labelling of Bin Laden as a terrorist. So by your logic, a country which labels attacks against it by a sworn enemy as “terrorism” deserves punishment, in the form of what that country would call “terrorism”. Does that sound just or peaceful to you, or a self perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence?
Also, if you believed in free speech, you’d realise that describing an act of terror as an act of terror is speaking freely, without fear of punishment.
Your beliefs are a mass of contradictions.
Thats why many Muslim countries are fighting for Freedom from their oppression Muslim dictators.
They don’t want strict Islamic states anymore.
They want Freedom. Human Rights.
Interesting that a person has been arrested for the homophobic posters in East London.
Being that we know have it confirmed who put the posters up can we please have a statement from Rainbow Hamlets and Out East regarding how they intend to proceed and how they intend to continue to speak and work for the LGBT community when it is quite clear they have ‘other’ interests?
Yes, agreed, I’m expecting the islamfacist/apologist fools to come up with some edl conspiracy theory, about the arrest of a muslim man over those posters.Some of the comments here are based around the previous unfounded allegations that the edl had any involvement in this, whereas it can be taken it was more home grown islamic extremists. Its unfortunate to think that there are also some very passive,gullible, idiotic, phoney pc liberal lgbt about that actually like to create conspiracy theories of who has organised these leaflets rather than open their minds to the obvious.
5 men now arrested for inciting hatred by distributing leaflets saying “gays should face the death penalty”. All the PC brigade and apologists for theocratic fascism happy now? Send them back to their beloved Pakistan where they can enjoy their religion in peace and leave us in peace.
Christ, you’re boring, Rich. Can’t you just get a life instead of spending all your time on a gay website?
Premodern Muslims were fearless in their enjoyment of nookie with others of the same sex. Modern Muslims are fearless in their amnesia about it.
Nobody force you to read my comments. Sorry for disagreements.
Yes, it is called denial!
It’s ironic the amount of effort expended on this site talking to a dude who is pretending to be
d) illiterate….. when in reality he is
Someone who pretends to have bad english isn’t going to post a comment which reads…
“Wow! So many gay-islamophobes here!
That’s “remarkable”…………………….” all of a sudden. This is some wanker who is trying to stir racisim pure and simple and should be totally ignored. If no one responds to his shyte he will eventually tire of it and move on.
“Someone who pretends to have bad english isn’t going to post a comment which reads”…should read “Someone who has bad English isn’ going…..”
You are wrong on all. I am not pretending at all. I am honest. I might be wrong on something, but I am honest.
“I might be wrong on something”
Silly child. The correct spelling is “I might be wrong on everything”
You keep up the denial about your latent homosexuality, because well balance straight people ALWAYS come into gay sites to protest.
We don’t read them. We laugh at them.