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UK equality watchdog recommends that children as young as 11 could be quizzed on their sexuality

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  1. Nicolas Chinardet 27 Mar 2011, 11:02am

    I didn’t even know I had a sexuality at the age, let alone what it was…

    1. We’re all different – me and one of my school mates gave one another blow jobs at 11.

      1. more info than we need

        1. Edward is right that we are all different. I kind of knew at age 12 for sure – but some of the influences in my life were not exactly the most gay friendly – so it took me till 22 to get it sorted in my head. I’m not saying this sort of situation would definitely have helped me, but I do know if I had positive encouragement that being gay was ok then I suspect I would have been happier in my orientation a lot earlier.

      2. Same with me Edward, and the same with Stu (below)- you can “know” that you’re different in terms of sexual attraction without being secure in the knowlege at that age.

        I’m not sure how I would have handled the questions that this study is trying to ask at 11, however, and wonder if I had been asked what i would have said. Of course, it really depends which environment the children are situated. If they live in a home/family/neighbourhood which views gay/lesbian sex negatively, I’m sure the answers will be different than if the child is in a open environment.

    2. The Tories are coming:
      .
      http://nomblog.com/6835/

      1. Jock S. Trap 30 Mar 2011, 3:03pm

        Hi, its 2011 and they’ve been here for quite some time. Care to join us from you 1984 hovel?

        1. I thought I detected aspects of Mein Kamp

  2. I started to get feelings around 12 but i didn’t really say i was gay til 15, and i still wouldn’t have told some poxy survey before i came out to others!

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:13pm

      I must admit I think this should take on the form of proper education in schools to all to teach the LGBT are just human beings etc like Straight. I agree a survey does seem a bit too personal and may feel that could open up for bullying.

      They need to make this a very serious but sensitive issue but totally one of acceptance. This has to be made to happen for the poisitively in Faith schools. It can’t be one law for state one for Faith.

      1. @ Jock S Trap

        I think that some research could help ascertain whether there is evidence (other than from expressed personal opinion later in life) of young LGBT people not being encouraged and supported early enough. Im not sure if a survey is the right way to do it, although I am also not sure of an alternative.

        I do think that there needs to be proper relationship education in schools and that no school should be entitled to dilute that relationship education – regardless of the status of the school.

    2. I was getting some bullying at from that age in a Catholic school, there is no way I would have told anyone I was maybe gay at any stage during my schooling, it wasn’t acceptable to talk about at school or at home.
      Having had panic attacks and heart palpitations around the age of 13yrs caused by stress, I went for a series of tests at the local hospital, one of the doctors trying to find out my problem asked me if I was gay, I firmly denied it.
      I don’t think the Equality and Human Rights Commission have got this right, those kids most in need of help growing up in a hostile school and home environment will not feel free or trusting enough to cooperate honestly.

      1. To be honest I think they would of been better off investigating the amount/causes of bullying. A significant amount of homophobic bullying at school is also gender based and affects people who never end up identifing as gay anyway so I’m not sure what it’s mean’t to achieve even if everyone who is gay did feel able to answer.

        1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 10:21am

          That is true Louise. I know of one person who sadly killed himself because of homophobic bullying and he wasn’t Gay. This isn’t just about identity though. If young people were able to understand that being LGBT is just being human and take away that bullying element that they use, we may decrease that type of bullying. All ages need to see that weither Straight, Gay, Lesbian etc we are just human beings.

          Of course there will always be those nasty elements who’ll do anything for attention but to make being Gay as acceptable as being Straight may just help start to prevent some damaging side effects on the young. Surely that way, if we teach acceptence from a young age we hopefully will get a better more open minded society later on.

          1. @Louise and Jock S Trap

            It is encouraging that there is recognition in employment and equality laws that someone can be bullied or harassed with reference to a perception on the part of the person/people carrying out those acts even if the target is not part of the grouping alleged – eg perception that a straight person is gay or an atheist person is of a particular faith.

            I suspect it will take a while for schools to catch onto this slightly more complex form of discrimination – but it is important that they do.

            I wholeheartedly agree that encouraging acceptance of differences and making all as valid as each other is crucial in achieving a tolerant and accepting generation in the young people in our society. I think that is much more important than a survey – but I can see that the data obtained from such a survey could be useful, although am not convinced it will achieve much.

  3. Just another academic who feels she has the right to poke around in other people’s business.

    Perhaps if her own life was more interesting, she’d not worry so much!

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:23pm

      Clearly coming from someone who has no idea what growing up LGBT in a Religious minded education system is like.

      We can only tackle bullying once people are accepted, not divided.

      Growing up myself to years of misery from homophobic bullying in school, I really wouldn’t wish it on anyone else as I’m sure any decent human being woudn’t.

      Guess it’s just too easy to sit back and ignore how important children are and how damaging bullying from an early age can be.

      For the next child that commits suicide because of the way they feel and the way they are being treated because of it, at least Christians and those iin other religions will have their conscience clear that is was just something disposable, unnatural, I mean whats the point right? it’s just another human being.

      Open your eyes and see your hatred.

      1. I beg your pardon?

        Hatred?

        For whom exactly?

        1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:45pm

          Clearly the children who are bullied for being born who they are.

          1. Having the state poke its nose into children’s sexuality won’t stop bullying.

          2. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:09pm

            No it won’t completely, I admit that but they have the power to dramatically reduce the numbers affected by homophobic bullying like they did in this news item about the school in Stoke Newington. It’s a model that should be rolled out to all schools.

            http://www.pinke.biz/news/6022/Gay_History_Lessons_Cut_Homophobic_Abuse_and_Harassment_At_Stoke_Newington_School

          3. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:10pm

            Only with positive action can we start to reduce bullying and the effects in has on people later in life.

    2. “other people’s “……?

      1. The children in the schools who would be involved in this process are different people to the report authors … therefore other people QED

  4. Surely, I know this is a crazy idea, simply creating safe places (i.e. schools) for children to grow up without homophobic/transphobic or any other kind of bullying, regardless of their sexuality, is all that’s important?

    Heterosexual teens get bullied for being perceived as “gay” too. This survey would be pointless as well as intrusive.

    Protect kids, don’t pry into their personal lives.

    1. Seconded. It’s amazing how well-meaning people who want to erradicate homophobia seem never to realise that it actually affects how people answer such questions – especially the young and vulnerable. Safe and affirming space for young people to come out is what is needed, and that’s hard enough to achieve.

    2. Quite agree… I wouldn’t have admitted my sexuality to myself at that age, let alone an intimidating government sex survey. Some kids develop early, some don’t recognise their sexuality until a lot later, and even then having the confidence to out yourself isn’t always a straightforward affair.
      It’s one thing to protect gay kids, it’s another thing to cross examine them without their consent. This could backfire badly.

      1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:29pm

        That too is a fair comment Flapjack. People need to learn that people ‘start’ life at different times. A better education system should be about telling anyone who they are is who they are withou prejudice.

    3. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:26pm

      Agree with that Jae, it should really be all about being in an accepted enviroment without bullying, fear and intimidation although I do think being able to accept oneself as early as possible and being open about it may go along way to helping that enviroment.

    4. Absolutely the key thing should be ensuring that kids of all ages are protected, safe and in a secure environment that is positive and supportive of difference (however that may present itself)

      It is key that schools (and other organisations involved in supporting children) recognise that children develop emotionally, and in other ways, at different paces. Some may well be certain of their orientation by 10 some may be unsure until well after they leave school. Whether they are certain or not, they should be placed in an environment where it is safe for them to come out (if they choose to) but there should be no action that makes it appear as if they ought to come out – particularly when developing emotionally it is key that no pressure exists on disclosure.

      I know data would help target resources but that data would be coming from vulnerable children and may cause more damage than the benefit it brings.

      1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 7:11am

        I think the key message has to be from a young age regardless of weither we know or not is that it’s doesn’t matter what you are, to be proud of yourself and everyone around you. I don’t necessarily think a survey is best but I do think better education is.

        1. Absolutely, Jock S Trap

          Pride in ourselves and the communities we are part of. Building relationships and friendships that are tolerant and celebrate difference (whether we know, at that point, where we fit into the difference or not).

  5. dave wainwright 27 Mar 2011, 11:25am

    I feel this is a terrible invasion of privacy , most 11 and 12 year olds would not categorise themselves or label or identify themselves . These policies should be implemented as a matter of policy as there is much evidence already to suggest that it is necessary from those of us who survived the playground and then identified as LGBT .

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:33pm

      I don’t think it’s as much about labelling as accepting. Anyone who went through homophobic bullying how bad it can get and if this goes someway to halting, or at the very least decreasing the risk then it has to be for the good.

      1. It’s about labelling.

        Once the state has labelled, it can divide.

        1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:11pm

          But it’s divided already thats why we have such a problem with regards homophobic bullying.

          1. I’ve got to say that at 11yrs I had so little information about homosexuality, I didn’t know what being homosexual entailed let alone categories like…

            “lesbian, gay, bisexual, questioning, queer, pansexual, genderqueer, a sexual, pan-romantic or trisexual”

            I’m really not sure what all the above categories mean even now, how would an 11yr old make any sense of it?

            At school you might be getting called queer or gay and being bullied before understanding what these words mean, or having had any sexual experience.

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 9:21am

            Most people bully because they don’t understand someone. It’s a cop-out reaction. It has been proved that when children understand that we are all different yet all human beings bullying decreases. I’m not saying it stops but to it goes a long way in people beign treated better. I think secondary school is the right place, I mean we are being trained for adult life after all so why exclude how people are born to better ourselves and others?

          3. Absolutely, when children are more aware that there are different forms of relationship and that all are equally valid – along with a respect for other differences, then it has been shown this usually results in a decrease in bullying.

            I wasnt really aware of homosexuality as a concept until sometime around 11 or 12 and I certainly had no real input that made me consider it might be normal.- I suspect that if I had, I would have been able to react more easily to my own sexuality.

            I don’t think we can ever completely eradicate bullying – there will always be bigots (of various types) – but we can minimise it by education, example, campaigning, ensuring equality and personal conduct.

  6. We better encourage out teachers and other public figures to speak out in schools and in media and show children “it gets better” and in time we win. 12 is very early but in heart this idea is good. We learn about racism much earlier.

    1. It really won’t happen voluntarily in faith schools .

      1. @Pavlos

        Not in many faith schools I agree and they need to be led through a variety of carrot and stick approaches to the right place

        That said, there will be some who are positive and voluntarily reach a good place. A friend of mine is governor at a faith school – and they have an amazing set of diversity policies, relationship education, recognition that there are different faiths, races, types of relationship etc and that all are of value. My friend would like to see some improvements – and I am sure they will come – but to get to this point already in a faith school should be celebrated and could be a beacon to other faith schools who are frightened to be seen stepping out alone on the journey they so desperately need to make, for the sake of the children they are educating and supporting.

        1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:19pm

          Sorry but I don’t agree with faith schools, full stop. No surprise I hear you say.

          How someone is born should Never come second to what group people want to choose as a lifestyle to follow later. Then I don’t agree with children being force fed religion.

          1. @Jock S Trap

            Indeed, no surprise …

            I don’t disagree with you – I think faith schools (of all flavours) are helpful in ensuring a balanced education of children. There are genuinely some faith schools that do manage a balanced and open minded education – but far more that display entrenched and arguably bigoted views.

            The fact remains that some faith schools exist, and the free schools policy of this government is likely to encourage more. Therefore, whilst supporting those that think faith schools are unhelpful, I think we also need to find ways of encouraging faith schools to be more inclusive and having more balance since they do currently exist and appear likely to for a while.

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 2:38pm

            And lets not forget one of the last things the Labour government brought in was Amendment 70 which with allow faith schools to teach about homosexuality along the guidelines of their religion ie resentful and discriminating.

          3. Ooops just noticed a typo in my comment I meant to say

            I don’t think faith schools (of all flavours) are helpful in ensuring a balanced education of children

          4. Jock S. Trap 29 Mar 2011, 10:19am

            Stu

            What were you sucking on and what flavour lolly was it?

          5. @Jock S Trap

            I dont the flavours of any of the faith schools to suck on lol

          6. Aaargh my typing!

            Dont like any of the the flavours …

            it should have read

  7. CelticPride77 27 Mar 2011, 11:29am

    Oh Melanie Philips and The Daily Hate Mail are going to be frothing at that mouth over this.

    I agree with Jae on this, creating safe spaces for young people, where bullying is tackled is far more important than trying to tag people as early as possible.

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:35pm

      I’ll be interested in what Melanie Phillips and indeed the Daily (Hate)Mail’s version of this story will be. I doubt it’ll come anywhere close to what the story is about so they can encourage the bigots and other haters.

      1. I suspect Melanie Philips will adopt some sort of quasi section 28 esque slant on it

  8. Ridiculous idea

  9. 11 is too young, I think. All children need is an awareness, in a very basic sense, of different sexualities, so that later on they understand their feelings and are confident that they’re OK. Different children realise their sexuality at different ages and I think for most it’s a gradual process.

    The danger is if you ask too early, a child may say ‘straight’ because that’s what they think’s right and is all they know so they assume that must be them, then that could get stuck in their heads and mean they take much longer to realise their actual sexuality. It’s just as bad as someone randomly labelling the child themselves.

    All that is needed is education not asking questions about children’s sexuality. They’ll get their in their own time.

    1. Sorry – THERE!

  10. Horrific! This is total nonsense! You cannot ask a child at that age what they are and at that age they are a child! This is very scary indeed!

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:40pm

      But your dismissing anyone who does know or feel it. I knew very young and I couldn’t have been alone. Is it right that some have to suffer because society thinks they couldn’t possible feel the way they do? That they are not ready?

      Thats just wrong.

      If it was me, I don’t know if I would have said but considering my teachers showed their hatred to me because of homophobic bullying from other kids, this may have made me feel not so alone.

      1. Its a really hard thing to get right since children develop at different paces.

        If you set an arbitary age then for some it will be too early and for some it will be too late.

        I think the key thing is support and encouragement alongside well thought out relationship education

        1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 7:19am

          The message to get out there is that whoever we are we are not wrong as would religion sects have us believe. No child should be told how they were born is wrong. I remember it being said to me many times by teachers before I was eventually pulled out of the school. It was hell. Yet they feel they have the right to say it. This has to change.

          Weither they are That age or not children have to know, either for themselves or others around them, that they are as natural as the next person.

          1. @Jock S Trap

            Just to correct your comment that stereotypes above … you state “that relgiious sects” would have us believe … some religious organisations would have us believe the negative things you rightly comment on – and they need condemnation … not all religious groups believe that, some actually are very supportive of rights for all, equality for the LGBT community etc

            We don’t like being stereotyped as LGBT communities – its churlish to then stereotype other groups in the community.

        2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 7:24am

          I think there is another side to why this action is benefical. Gay victims of child abuse are least likely to come forward because of how society treats us. We all know, even as a child that abuse if wrong but giving this kind of education may go someway to getting out there that discrimination is wrong and unacceptable, which may go some way in helping victims come forward.

          1. Very valid point … I remember two traumatic cases of child abuse I investigated when a police officer – both of them with reasonably young children who may or may not have been gay, but certainly were abused by other males – and it was clear that part of their reluctance to provide full evidence was due to a feeling or belief or culture that man on man sexual contact in itself was wrong and therefore at least some of the blame should be associated with them as survivors. It took some very delicate discussion and support from myself and colleagues from other agencies (along with a very good family friend in one instance) to both reassure them that being abused was wrong full stop, and that they might feel guilt but that this feeling (in our view) was misplaced – that the person who should feel guilty was the abuser and then tease out the facts of what occurred.

            If we have a culture in place that is supportive and celebrates difference whilst vocally condemning abuse then it may help

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:26pm

            Unfortunately that guilty never really goes and sadly that is due to how others look upon you.

          3. @Jock S Trap

            I agree that a significant part in the “guilt” is about real or perceived perceptions of how the survivor is seen by others.

            How that is resolved I am not clear on – partly because each survivor of abuse is unique. That said, I think that any action which creates an environment which is more inclusive and more supportive may enable some people to realise they are accepted and the preconceived views on LGBT issues may diminish – which I would hope would benefit those experiencing abuse.

    2. “scarey”……..?!
      (really?!)

      1. I think questioning some children could be scary to those children

        However, I don’t think the whole process is scary. I do wonder if we would be better directly resources more productively in terms of creating accepting cultures in schools

        I do also wonder is an analysis of potential risk to those who are not ready to have questions asked of them about their sexuality has been carried out.

        1. Precisely – there’s no need to question children and yes, many WILL find it scary. What’s needed is education and reassurance not intrusive questions.

  11. my children went to a school that had a zero tolerance policy to ALL bullying. they had focus days and citezenship classes that explored anti bullying and diversity. part of that teaching was that your sexuality was YOUR buisness until you chose to make it other peoples. as a result they and thier friends are very open and accepting and they both have many happy and well adjusted out gay friends. as well as a lesbian mother. this should surely be what we are aiming for..rather than trying to label kids who are still finding out who and what they are.

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:42pm

      A positive comment. Your children were lucky to have been sent to such a schools and good parents.

    2. I have only ever heard one other person describe a school environment like this – it sounds very positive and that the culture could be role modelled to other schools. It should be what we are aiming for

  12. I certainly think that it’s a good idea to educate children about sexual orientation.
    However asking them about their own sexuality at such a young age seems foolish.

  13. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 11:57am

    Melanie Phillips toasting anyone?

    I was much younger than 12 and knew exactly how I felt and what I wanted. Would being accepted help? Of course it would, why wouldn’t it.

    I find Graham Stuart’s comment hypocritical and someone who clearly has no idea of what young LGBT have to go through or the LGBT community in general. He rightly claims schools should be a place of safety but can’t see this goes a long way to helping pupils feel safe.

    Having said that I would like to know what he Actually meant by the comment as if having pupils being accepted somehow make a school dangerous?

    A typical bigotted response. This is about protecting young people and I doubt he is really suitable for the job of Conservative chairman of the education select committee if that is how he feels. He clearly is treating diversity as being wrong. What is this, the British version of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell of education?

    This has no place in 2011.

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:02pm

      It’s bigots like him that highlight the need because bigotry is taught from very young and it teaches that certain people are born wrong. THAT is just plain wrong. All, especially children need to know what they feel is right, so the early we are treated as fine, natural and accepted the better.

      I am fed up with religion poking its nose into everybodies lives as if they know best. They don’t. It is barbaric to even suggest they do.

    2. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:04pm

      Let the Christian Gay-bashing commence. Bet Melanie Philips head has exploded again, though doubt there’s much mess.

      1. Let the Christian-bashing commence.

        Some points worth noting:

        1) Nobody else has mentioned christianity except yourself.

        2) Melanie Philips is Jewish

        3) Before you ask, I’m agnostic.

        1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:52pm

          Pathetic comment. Ok stand corrected let the Religious Gay-bashing commence.

          Fact is this has Everything to do with religion. It is ONLY religion that feels it has the right to stop people being themselves happy to creat miserable children at the expense of their own self impoartant bigotry. Lets not forget Religion is a choice, we are born this way yet religion feels it has the right to dictate how we should be.

          Melanie Phillips may well be Jewish it is documented but she is also a massive homophobic bigot.

          As for your last comment, I couldn’t care less if your a agnostic or lime butter your still a bigotted idiot, guess nothing can take that away.

          NewsFlash: Some people are Gay, Get over it!

          1. Your thinking is all over the place.

            The problem here is the intrusion by the state into personal lives.

            You assume that I have something against gays. On what grounds doesn’t seem clear to me.

            You assume that the motivation behind objecting to state intrusion is religious. Again, I’m unsure why.

            You equate objecting to state intrusion with objecting to gay people. That’s pretty kooky.

            All in all, your mind is a mess and there’s little to be done for you!

            Thank you and good night :-)

          2. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:16pm

            Ah well people blinded by bigotry never want to see and no doubt will continue blaming everyone else but themselves.

            If thats all you can come up with…

          3. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:18pm

            Yours is a typical response from someone with nothing to say.

          4. I agree that some religions do feel they can dictate what they perceive as morally correct and that has significance for many LGBT issues including relationship education and culture os acceptance in schools.

            It is too easy to say that it is only religious groups who think this. How many non-religious people supported Section 28 … plenty …

            There is a religious element but there are also homophobes out there who share similar views who have no faith

            Absolutely some people are gay and those who have a problem need to get over it

            That means people of faith and others who have none need to get over it.

            See no evidence of bigotry from Hoover – just that they don’t share all your views on religion …

            Hoover has plenty to say … your deflection of “Ah well people blinded by bigotry never want to see …” confuses me as Hoover certainly hasnt disagreed there is religious bigotry against gays or suggested there shouldnt be full equality in schools.

  14. A lot of children know what sort of attractions they are feeling as soon as puberty changes the hormones in their bodies. At age 11 I first started to feel same sex attractions. I wouldn’t have admitted to them if asked, but that was nearly 30 years ago and times have changed. The average age of coming out has gone down and down and there are children who never go into the closet in the first place but just accept their sexuality as it becomes apparent. Children of that age don’t need to be asked about their sexuality as they might not be sure about it yet, but for those who are it is important that there’s a supportive, non-homophobic environment.

    At school I was told that same sex attractions were a normal phase that some boys feel and grow out of. I respected the teacher that told me this and I believed it. I feel that was very damaging to me and left me confused.

  15. Colin Mackay 27 Mar 2011, 12:08pm

    The part I agree with the most is “The watchdog is keen to ensure that LGB young people are not told that their sexuality is a “phase” that will pass.”

    I was told that when I was a teenager and it was, i believe, a contributing factor as to why it took roughly 20 years to realise it wasn’t a phase and I really was gay.

    Schools should simply provide a safe environment where children are taught that it doesn’t matter which way you are. I would never have answered anything but “straight” until my mid-thirties so this study would have not helped folks like me.

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 12:44pm

      I agree with that. I was told several times it was just a ‘phase’. It’s a bloody long ‘phase’ it has to be said but it is all about the enviroment in which a child is brought up.

    2. Agree totally with Colin … Its why I struggled with my orientation in my teens and very early 20s. I knew I was gay but because of comments which in some instances were clearly homophobic and motivated as such, and some which were ignorant rather than malicious I tried to discover if there was a way not to be gay … By 22 I was happy in my own skin but didnt come out till 24 and it took my parents another 11 years to accept it
      It does need a safe environment where children are taught that it matters not whether you are gay, bi or straight nor does it matter when or if you choose to come out.
      Part of the child being brought up is in school so that is crucial. The state can’t legislate for sex and relationship education in the family – so the school must give a positive environment that enables children of all orientations to feel comfortable in their thoughts on issues of sexuality.

  16. dave wainwright 27 Mar 2011, 12:46pm

    an interesting article on how the Dutch approach sex education in schools ; http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/25/sex-education-dutch-children?INTCMP=SRCH
    furthermore nearly every town in Holland has experienced teenage support groups for LGBT people to guide them

  17. Keith Lynwood 27 Mar 2011, 12:55pm

    According to Chris Moyles the phrase gay when used by school children means pathetic and useless.You need to educate the likes of him first before 11 year olds.

  18. Sounds a bit dubious to me.
    Most children of that age don’t have a sexuality (mine appeared, to my great surprise, at about 13).
    I would wonder at the motives of anyone who tried to inject some sort of sexuality into anyone, before that person was ready, and more importantly, willing to deal with it.

  19. I’m a sexual too!
    (as in, PinkNews, its spelled asexual. No space.)

  20. I’ve been telling my council for months that this Equality Act will change everything and they continue to ignore it. We have a gay youth group and the homophobic council has tried everything to get it shut down.

    Why do they continue to ignore it, do they know something we don’t?

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 4:02pm

      Because they want to believe it doesn’t exist, they don’t want to be seen dealing with it. They’d rather pander to the religious than give support to what they se as minorities.

  21. Bollocks. They haven’t even asked that on the census. I knew I was gay from really young but didn’t understand it fully until much older. But maybe things are different now

  22. Actually, I happened to be 11 when I realised I liked boys and as I grew older, I knew I definitely liked men but didn’t come out to my family until I was 18. I lived in fear of being discovered and being rejected by my family. Fortunately, I had a supportive family. Children of 11 years of age who know they are gay shouldn’t have to live in fear of being bullied, ridiculed, stigmatised and alienated. Maybe there is some relevance to finding out what is going on with them and maybe prevent the next suicide.

  23. In the new Equality duty it say’s;

    Having due regard to the need to advance equality of opportunity involves considering the need to:
    • Encourage people to participate in public life or in other activities where their participation is low.

    Fostering good relations involves tackling prejudice and promoting understanding between people from different groups. Complying with the general duty may involve treating some people better than others, as far as this is allowed by discrimination law.

    My council has just spent (passed 10 months) over £3m on religious people and nothing on the gay community. Dose this mean we are about to get a proper community?

    See your councils above £500 list: http://tinyurl.com/spending-over-500-list

  24. Nothing short of sinister but at the same time not surprising coming from these PC-corrupted control freaks. The lunatics running this asylum are now the elephants in the rooms.

    1. I am at a complete loss how anything you disagree with is somehow related to political correctness. The only lunatic here is you, William, I suggest you get some medical help, or perhaps some schooling.

    2. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:33pm

      I assume you prefer children were bullied. Though religion was about love, coz it looks far from it from that comment.

      1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:33pm

        Correction thought religion was about love…

        1. Box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick], box [tick]…ad nauseum. YAWN.

          1. Are you filling out the form in your local hospital to get “checked out” for stupidity, and banality, William?

  25. Andrew Hayden Smith said he knew he was gay at about 5 years old. But of course because of the prevailing heteronormativity he was unhappy telling the world until much later.

    We need, as David Cameron said, a change in culture. Young people should have confidence in an inclusive and diverse society.

    1. I remember having attractions and crushes at 6-7 of famous guys … I didnt really recognise them as such at the time it is only with the benefit of hindsight that I know realise that what it was – but then I wasnt aware men could have relationships with men at that point, if I had been would I have interpreted my feelings differently – maybe, who knows?

  26. Jock S. Trap typical millitant homosexual force on to other people ” You will accept us”

    My answer “No we wont, now naff off”

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 4:17pm

      Most of the LGBt community have spent our lifetimes being unacceptable to people like you. We are human beings, nothing different yet You choose to label, not us. Your hatred is noted, boringly, but you should get used to the fact we are here, are legal and have rights, not all but we deserve to be treated just like any other human being.

      1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 4:22pm

        The t in LGBT was not intentional.

    2. @Mary

      You may choose not to accept us – that is your choice, it makes you a bigot and prejudiced. It makes your relating to anyone you discover as LGBT to be couched in hatred and lack of compassion. It also damages you as the hatred isnt a good mantra for psychological well being. However, it is your choice whether you accept (personally) or not.

      That said, society is moving – LGBT people have a lot of rights now. We dont have equality yet – but its coming. Whether you like it or not, we are here. There reason there has been campaigning by the LGBT communities is because people like you have denied us basic human rights – engaged in oppressive actions and comments that have enabled generations of LGBT people to be treated differently to others purely of the basis of their orientation – thats very similar to apertheid.

  27. Jock S Trap

    “I am fed up with religion poking its nose into everybodies lives as if they know best. They don’t. It is barbaric to even suggest they do.”

    Jock I am fed up of homosexuals forcing their sexuality on to other people, it will come back and slap you in the face soon, I hope.

    1. have a gin and tonic and pissoff

    2. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 4:15pm

      Who is forcing their sexuality on anyone. It’s a typical bigotted hetero response to something they don’t understand so instead of trying their little brains try and put into some kind of jibberish they may understand… and fail miserably.

      Nobody is forcing anything on anybody. This just happens to be a Gay news site so a bit stupid for someone to come here then complain about those damn homos.

      Look at your own problems, the unwanted teenage pregnancies, abortions, STDs and get your own house in order before give out some misguided moral judgments.

      Fact is bullying of any kind should never be tolerated and the oonly true way to stop it is by better accepting education.

    3. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 4:25pm

      Remember Mary…

      We are born who we are it is you who choose a Religion Lifestyle and dictate which human beings are acceptable or not.

      We have no choice in how we are born unlike you who has Every choice to be a Religious bigot.

    4. So when was the last time a lesbian approached you and demanded you convert to lesbianism against your will Mary? Or is this “homosexuals forcing their sexuality onto other people” something you just made up?

      1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:04pm

        It is interesting how religious people seem to think children being bullied should be ignored or it’s that childs own fault.

        They should ask themselves, isn’t that very oppressive opinion equal to child abuse. And they call themselves religious… what a laugh.

        1. Your intolerance of religion, and determination to ascribe religious motives to people who object to the state interfering in people’s sexuality is interesting!

          1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:01pm

            Not at all but I do resent religion dictating how I am even though mine was born and theirs was via choice. Please do prove to me, and us, that the motives here are not religion induced. Tell me those negative comments like Graham Stuart’s aren’t produced according to his religious beliefs.

            As someone who suffered homophobic bullying in schools and knows a couple who commited suicide because of such, I will stand up against anyone in religion who says I’m wrong and unnatural. I will stand up for every LGBT persons right to be who they are without prejudice, without discrimination, without hatred.

            If children are expected to leave school pay taxes like everyone else, vote like everyone else, obey the law like everyone else then they should also have the right to be respected for they are and how they were born. Religion should Always come second to how we are born.

          2. @Hoover

            I do think there is intolerance of religion on these threads at times which does little to benefit the cause for equality for all (including LGBT)

            However, these comments are reacting to someone who has voiced a refusal to accept LGBT people. I think (whether it is relgious based or not ) her ignorance deserves critique and condemnation

    5. Mary, what an puerile response. Why do you insist on sharing your stupidity with such a wide audience. Seriously, its embarrassing.

      1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:36pm

        So dense she doesn’t grasp what she is saying… “homosexuals forcing their sexuality” it’s the kind of thing people with a religious agenda say but do they not see how thick that kind of comment makes them?

        Clearly not!

        1. I always thought proselytising for converts was a religious thing, not so much a gay thing.

        2. Have you, or any gay person you know ever said “I feel sorry and concerned for you, if you were to follow my path and way of life, you would find life so much easier”?
          No. But I know plenty of the Christians that have.
          The only time I have ever “converted” anyone was a young guy that was worried about his sexuality, where I simply explained the options; (as if he had any choice in the matter), and whatever happened, real friends wouldn’t give a tinkers.

          1. @Spanner

            I doubt that was a conversion – more a reassurance lol

            I do think we as LGBT people need to do two things – concentrate on righting for the rights that we should have including those for young people in school and exposing intolerance and bigotry in all its forms (not isolating one stream such as relgion).

            When we isolate one stream for special concentration of our condemnation we leave ourselves vulnerable to being viewed as bigots ourselves.

    6. Mary Wrote

      “Jock I am fed up of homosexuals forcing their sexuality on to other people, it will come back and slap you in the face soon, I hope.”

      Mary, in what way is homosexual sexuality being forced on people; as you suggest ?

      1. Would love to hear Mary’s response to this …

        1. Oh you know… saying stuff about it.

          Here you all are on this forum, saying stuff about homosexuality.

          If that’s not forcing your sexuality on people, I don’t know what is.

          Dissssssgusting!

          1. Sarcasm is said to be the lowest form of wit lol

            I managed to figure a way to force gay sex on someone – but not sexuality … Mary is disturbed if she thinks thats possible …. Unless, she has an insight she wants to share …

          2. PS Hoover I do want to know what sort of accent I should use with your sarcasm …lol

            Because your comment was spot on

          3. Oh, you mean on OUR gay forum,FOR gay people, where you have intruded? Yes, quite.

            Hoover, you could do with sucking up a brain…. you are one stupid, stupid individual.

          4. @ Terry – Er, I think you might want to look over the comment again, I believe the comment by Hoover was being facetious.

          5. @Terry

            I may be wrong, but I certainly took Hoovers comments to be facetious and humerous …

            I certainly is along the lines of response I would anticipate from Mary – of course if she responds now then she will either deny this or become particularly hostile in her comments

    7. Oh, Mary again. How unhappy ARE you, mary that you seek to denigrate others? What a miserable life you must have! And, presuming you’re straight, please stop pushing your straightness on me blah blah.

  28. This isn’t just about bullying. It is about trying to find out how the negative portrayals in general affect very young people as they are in their formative years. This can affect them in a negative way for the rest of their entire life.

    If anyone can find a means of researching this then I am all for it. If the 11 year old doesn’t even understand the question, that in itself tells you a lot. If they do and are prepared to answer questions we could learn a hell of a lot.

    1. The Dutch have the right attitude.

      Britain has far higher rates of teenage pregnancy and abortion than in the Netherlands.

  29. While it is to be welcomed (although I wouldn’t use the term “quizzing” 11 year-olds, as that makes it sound like the inquisition), the real issue is surely the institutionalised homophobia in schools etc., who deny that young people have any notion of sexuality at a young age. I was clear from the age of about seven that I was much more interested in Harry’s Reems’ centrefold in 1970’s Playboy than in Silva Bayo’s first black female posing for Mayfair… yep my dad had a great collection of educational material! Growing up the hotel trade where my folks worked, I was hot for the bartender by the age if 10 and almost wet myself at the sight of a really well-hung school mate in school showers. See? Kids know best! I was oppressed for years by the homophobic attitudes of the educational/ church establishment figures who told (us) me that homosexuality was sinful. Now, as I’m in my late 40’s (and will kill anyone who divulges that factoid!) I’m an “original sinner in Mae West’s image!

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 5:43pm

      Excellent comment Sean R.

      Had similar experiences but I knew really from the age of 5 but feel i have always know, it is the way I was born after all. It’s selfish of people to assume they know best esp in the name of religion as chosen lifestyle. In this country oppression and homophobic attitudes should have no place esp in the 21st century, esp in our schools where education is paramount. Religion should be replaced by real-life society issues to help make this country and the world a far better place than any religion could make it.

      1. @Sean R

        Totally endorse all your comments. I do think educational/family and religious contacts all immersed me in a culture where being gay was seen as wrong and that it was acceptable to ridicule gay people. As there were no positive gay role models or discussion of the acceptance of all orientations the feelings I had very young around 6ish I did not recognise as gay feelings until much later. Even then I could not accept them till much later due to the heteronoramlity and lack of acceptance of gay people for fear of not being accepted.

        @Jock S Trap
        Emapthize with a lot of your comments. Homophobic attitudes have no place in society. That means homophobic comments from any quarter.
        When you say “religion should be replaced” you sound like you are suggesting religion should not be permitted … that is a dangerous premise.

        1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 7:44am

          Stu

          Being that we are talking about education I DO believe religion should Not be taught in schools. I would much rather it was replaced with proper social and society teaching, which includes relationships, something they Actually need to progress in later life,

          Religion and it’s recruitment has no place in schools. I’ve said before information should be made available but it is personal choice and should never be forced on children.

          Coming from a very religious Christian family, I now feel lucky that I have made the choice not to be a part of it. To witness and be victim to both Christian and Muslim homophobic in my life I have absolutely no place for religion in my life, they are nothing but hypocrites. I have many ‘religious’ that are well aware of my attitude towards religion and respect me for it. I am also well aware that not all religious people are homophobic but the problem is that when our community is being attacked I don’t see them queuing up to condemn it.

          1. @Jock S Trap

            To be fair though your comment was not clear as to whether you were referring purely to education or not. The comment that cause me concern was “Religion should be replaced by real-life society issues to help make this country and the world a far better place …”. It could be taken as meaning this country and the world in its entirety, and such actions can lead to putting in place a very dangerous course which we have seen in the past when religions are banned or sought to be eliminated. Your clarification shows that wasn’t what you meant. It did set alarm bells ringing for me.

            I agree in part with what you say. I think that collective worship, faith based assemblies and promotion of particular faiths within schools is inappropriate. I would suggest that removing of academic study of relgions would be churlish as a greater understanding of such issues can have a positive contribution to debate.

          2. @Jock S Trap

            I also have been victim of disturbing comments from a number of different religious groupings. I have also experienced a lot of support.

            It seems to me that my experience of both ridicule and bigotry from within faith groups and also support is not always the one which other LGBT people have, but nor is it unique. I do sometimes wonder whether some LGBT people become blinkered to the existence of support from within faith groups in part due to their negative experiences – and as a subconscious reaction to the blinkered views of homophobes within faith groups. Neither sterotyped view is fair or realistic.

            Equally, it is the bigotry and dispute that makes media air time and newspaper columns not supportive comments and actions. That does not mean LGBT people should actively seek out positive faith people – nor does it mean their experience is invalid – just that there are situations which are different and contrary to those put forward.

          3. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:41pm

            Having personally experienced Religious bigotry, on many occasions sticking up for Religions it has to be said I have ended up fed up with them amount of times I have been told I shouldn’t be. I also have religious friends so do know some do support but even then many of them it’s a case of ‘well love the sinner, not the sin’.

            Not many when it comes down to the nitty gritty believe we are as natural as everyone else and to be honest you can only be told so many times I don’t matter, I should exist, I should have put down at birth, thats what I would have done if it was my child and various other comments, equally as horrible, before you become so happy to just wash your hand of such nasty hypocrites. Not all no but a good portion.

          4. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:42pm

            Lets face it they’ve spent a large number of centuries getting exactly what they want at whatever cost, so feel they can hardly now play victim no the tides turning. Thought I don’t see the LGBT burning them at the stake, or other delightful ways to get their own way. Oh and yes I know times have changed but they continue to say that when many of their own attitudes haven’t changed one bit.

        2. @Jock S Trap

          Having experienced some similar comments to those you mention I do entirely empathize. Our experiences are not identical – no two peoples experiences are – but we share some similar experiences … I also detest many of the ignorance within a significant number of faith groups. The homophobia can not be justified.

          I hope I haven’t come across as saying you should not have the feelings that you do. That comes (at least in part) from the experiences that make you, you. I always respect peoples experiences – and I respect that you also recognise that not all people of faith are bigoted.

          I do think that we lump all faiths up in one stereotype of a group very often. Equally some people of faiths are bigoted and undeservedly condemn gay people purely because of how they were made. I think stereotyping is wrong (but if there is a spectrum of ethics on this it is less wrong that bigotry).

          Your “They have been … for centuries” comment is fair in one respect but …

          1. … for the fact it lumps all people of faith whenever they have existed into one group – I would hope as LGBT people we could be more sophisticated than that (;-)) There are current members of faith groups who do genuinely believe that gay people are as normal as people who are straight.

            I will say that the passe argument of many within faith groups of “hate the sin, love the sinner” is fatuous. It is a cruel philosophy that condemns people either to judgement for behaving in line with the way they were made or to not being able to behave in line with the way they were made. Either way is callous and the passe comment whilst on initial inspection is warm and fluffy and nice – it really does not bear out closer inspection.

  30. Dan Filson 27 Mar 2011, 5:45pm

    Before I comment, I am going to read the report. Unusual, I know.

    1. Unusual indeed Dan lol

      I will read the report too – dont think that my not having accessed the report and read it in full prevents me from having a view on the basics of schools developing a culture which is supportive of equality and condemns homophobia in all its forms.

  31. I don’t really think this is a good idea, some kids don’t even know what those words mean at 11 years old. Also, it could cause a lot of problems for those who feel uncomfortable with their burgeoning sexualities, or who are afraid to tell others in case they tell friends/family/etc., which could lead to bullying and other consequences. It could force them to ‘grow up’ even sooner than they do already, when sometimes they don’t want to. We have to remember, they’re still just children and the authorities should just let them be kids instead of questioning them about issues that needn’t concern them at that age.

    1. Jock S. Trap 27 Mar 2011, 6:32pm

      Being bullied forced me to ‘grow up’ Because of it I didn’t have much of a traditional childhood. Would knowing there wasn’t anything wrong with me from a young age made me feel better about myself. If it showing and taught acceptance then yes.

      We have to stop treating everyone as a number and instead treat us as individuals. It has already been proved that open education has the ability to reduce homophobic bullying quite deamatically. I’m all for looking at ways other than a survey but I think this does indicate a better positive step forward. No child should be made to feel they are wrong. Nothing good comes from that.

      1. Yes, but look what YOU grew up into. What kind of an education did you get to make you want to spend your entire life trolling the boards of Pink News day in day out. One can only imagine (with abject horror)…

        1. @William

          You have no idea about the details of everyones life and what makes them be here …

          The fact that people are and have debates is a good thing

          I am here currently due to ill health – others may be too, or due to disability – or just because they enjoy it or value it. Just because they are not having the same sort of activities in their life as you does make make their experience inferior.

          If we were all like you, life would be incredibly boring and there would be no need for debate

        2. @ William, I would hardly call a few comments on this site “trolling”, and the only person who seems to exhibit a lack of education is you…. no doubt you got as far as “political correctness” in the dictionary and then just stopped.

          1. A “few”? My goodness! Jock Strap virtually sets the agenda on each and every story each and every day. This has become the Jock Strap forum and it has become very boring. He clearly lives a life on benefits – either that or his employer is paying him to troll on Pink News. And if the former then WE are paying him for this privilege. Jock, put your fog horn down. It’s spring time. Get some sun on your back. Smell the tulips. But most of all, GET A LIFE!!!

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 10:03am

            Yawn. For all your assumptions, your still just talking out of your butt!

            Whats going on in my life certainly doesn’t need to be justified to the likes of you.

            Lets hope you don’t have to go through why I am on here to find out why it helps.

          3. @ William, I suggest you put forward more rational argument instead of silly insults and paranoia, simply becuase one person here can write a comment better you can. Schooling helps too.

          4. @William

            Recently, I have posted a lot more than Jock S Trap – and while there are clear documented differences of opinion between the two of us – I think on most issues Jock S Trap puts across a fair and reasoned argument that deserves to be expressed and often is right. Even in the areas where we do disagree he has a reasoned argument and is prepared to discuss the issues rationally. That is to his credit – not that he needs any of our respect (I suspect). However, your comments just do not engage with the issues and seem more intent on isolating those who have different views to you – which is hardly what debate and discussion is about – the purpose of these forums.

          5. @William

            The bit I missed was if you are attacking Jock S Trap on his frequency of posting then attack me also … I relish a debate (if you can manage it …)

          6. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:47pm

            Derek/Stu

            Thanks Guys!

            :)

  32. Mary, and we’re fed up with immature straights like you who are responsible for the high teen pregnancy rate, violent crime, adultery, philandering, prostitution, rape of women, spousal abuse (usually women beaten by their straight husbands) and sex trafficking.from the far east for the edification and gratification of straight men. You’re an idiot, a hypocrite and a bigot. Grow up and get a life, moron!

  33. “Young people could be asked if they can define themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual, questioning, queer, pansexual, genderqueer, asexual, pan-romantic or trisexual.”

    Hmmm…. I’d not heard terms such as tri-sexual and pansexual (let alone understood them !) so what on earth would an 11-year old make of this questioning?

    This looks like it could do more harm than good.

    Of course the ‘Daily Mail Test’ should be the sole criterion, but if Pink News can come up with the headline “UK equality watchdog recommends that children as young as 11 could be quizzed on their sexuality”, just think what scary stuff our opponents will serve up to Joe Public !

    A waste of money at best, and dangerously counter-productive at worst.

    Best kicked into the long grass and forgotten.

    1. Grrrr… We need an edit function ! Should have been “Of course the ‘Daily Mail Test’ should NOT be the sole criterion…”

      1. Dr Robin Guthrie 27 Mar 2011, 8:13pm

        My usual one is that when they complain of thrusting things down their throats, I usually retort that it must be their own projected bile catching back. Usually throws them

  34. That’s CRAP.
    Many kid’s experiment sexually, and very often it IS just a phase that passes.

    Trying to define the sexuality of a child at that age is interfering and dangerous, and may impose psychological guilt trips on a simple rite of passage, and this applies to whatever sexuality the child finally turns out to be.

    These people should stop interfering and let nature take it’s course. If they want to discuss anything, let them come to you, not the other way round.

    Yet more fcking nanny state tactics.
    Hey! EHRC! Leave our kids alone!

    1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:10am

      So it is right that ‘phases’ are treated as normal but sexuality isn’t if it means same sex?

      I knew very young as was bullied for it. Was it right that my life was made hell with nowhere and no one to turn to?

      Sure let nature take it’s course but people don’t they have to interfere to tell you you are wrong, you shouldn’t be. Usually thats all to do with religion interfering.

      Knowing someone is there may have made a lot of difference and I would hope this goes some way to helping that.

  35. I believe most people would be aware of their sex orientation from 11 even younger onwards. However this (due to societal prejudice) will not necessarily be publically declared.

    1. “most people”, based on what? lets not speculate

      1. And what evidence do you have to refute it?

        1. i haven’t refuted anything, i was just asking for evidence supporting of your statement “most people”

          1. I agree. It took me over thirty years to figure mine out, and I know many similar ones. Don’t just apply your own personal experience to something and then declare it must be the norm.

      2. It probably is speculation on raptures part but based on their experience and that of others they know …

        The reason we don’t have evidence to base this on is that no surveys such as the one proposed are undertaken

        That doesnt make it a right thing to do, because of the variance with which people emotionally mature and reach conclusions as to their sexuality vary – if there has been no conclusion reached asking questions of their sexuality may be damaging to them.

        What we should concentrate on is getting the culture of schools safe and equal promoting the acceptance of all differences.

      3. Also , it should be clear from my wording on comment that i was speaking subjectively. My experience and those of most other lgbt people i have met is that they are aware of their sexual orientation at this age, although possibly not willing to rveal openly at this stage or identify as such .

        1. My experience and most people I know who are LGBT would correlate with what you are saying, rapture. Some of them being unwilling to reveal their orientation for some years after (if at all).

          I think the important part of your initial comment was the reference to societal pressure. The provision of a culture of acceptance in schools, as discussed in this forum may go part of the way to force change in the norms of societal pressures.

      4. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:13am

        Actually experience is evidence enough. A lot of people I know knew early, some later, either way what does it matter. Children should be taught to accept not discriminate.

        1. @Jock S Trap

          For me experience is enough – but for others evidence is important.

          I am a little two faced on this I will admit … in terms of LGBT rights and acceptance – experience is more than enough for me – but there is evidence for some of the LGBT issues that extend beyond the issues of age of being aware of orientation.

          However, on issues of faith I want evidence – not experience … two faced but its how I feel … I do recognise that experience may be enough for others though

          I do wholeheartedly agree that the priority should be teaching and supporitng children in acceptance and lack of discrimination and prejudice

    2. Rapture your mum knew you were gay before you did. Mums always know first

      1. I always thought so ….

        Mine didnt ….

        1. Are you an only child?

          1. Even more complex than that – my brother died when I was 5 …

            I suspect mum just didnt notice (or if she did succeeded in blocking out) key signs that may have suggested that I might be gay …

      2. My Mother is 80 years old and she still doesn’t know.

        1. Never tell your mother anything!, i did n it did me no favours.

      3. No think she was in deniel, till she found my porn stash,

        1. Jock S. Trap 31 Mar 2011, 9:55am

          Subtle then?

          1. Perhaps I should have tried that one

            ;-D

  36. Jock, stop saying you were born this way. Science has proven that’s not true. If it were true then in the case of identical twins where one twin is gay then in 100% of cases the other twin should be gay also, except they’re not. In only 25% of cases where one twin is gay is the other twin also gay.

    1. I think studies show close on 50% of identical twins share LGB sexual orientation. So there is an important birth factor, though it’s probably not be the whole story.

    2. ‘….Science has proven that’s not true…’

      what a stupid argument, following ur logic if one twin gets cancer then in 100% of cases the other twin should get cancer also, pls go away and educate urself

      1. I’ve merely stated a statistic from a scientific paper. If you can’t deal with these simple facts then you need to learn to.

        1. perhaps u could supply scientific paper u rely on, so i could “deal with these simple facts” PROPERLY

          1. http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/48667655

            Gladly. All the people who wrote the paper are qualified Medical Doctors.

          2. Section 5

          3. John Shea, MD, FRCP contributing to Catholic Insight Bioethics,
            John K. Wilson MD, FRCP mentioned on ex gay uganda blog,
            Paul Ranalli, MD, FRCP contributing to exodus global alliance chistian website, Christina Paulaitis MD, CCFP contributing to all sorts of catholic websites,
            Luigi Castagna MD, FRCP LifeSiteNews.com which emphasizes the social worth of traditional Judeo-Christian principles but is also respectful of all authentic religions and cultures that esteem life, family and universal norms of morality.

            couldnt be bothered with rest of ur homophobic, scientifically credential-less motley crew mentioned in ur ” scientific paper”.

            u just compromised urself, now just leave quietly

          4. @adam
            …Gladly. All the people who wrote the paper are qualified Medical Doctors….

            So was Dr Mengele,

          5. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:20am

            Your taking facts from Dr. Rabbe, the known homophobe who lost his government job for lying about his work that resulted in discrimination?

            Seriously?

            I thought you’d have based it on Christian facts, in otherwords meaningless tripe.

          6. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:24am

            Adam the fact you would use such a homophobic report to back your claim makes me wonder if you are really Nutjob Skinner.

            If you use religion to base your argument them of course it’s going to go your way that what you do. Not listen to people just smear them.

            You are too laughable.

        2. Adam, I don’t know if you realise that identical twins are not really 100% identical. Most identical twins can be told apart. I know identical twins where one is slightly taller than the other, one is right-handed and the other left-handed. Were they also not born that way? Have they learnt to be taller or to be left-handed?

          Studies on identical twins actually show the exact opposite of what you are claiming: because with identical twins the probability of one being gay if the other one is also gay is much higher than in the case of non identical twins, this actually proves that a person’s genetic makeup INDEED determines their sexual orientation. Otherwise there would be no difference between identical and non-identical twins in determining their sexual orientation.

          1. @Val

            You are correct. A lot of research has indeed shown that there are (sometimes minor, someitmes more significant) physical differences between most identical twins. A lot of studies have also shown that many identical twins develop at a similar rate both intellectually and emotionally.

            @Adam

            You study may well suggest that being gay is not due to being born that way. The authors may be competant to speak on issues such as genetics etc. Though without having other contributors who have no affiliation to the Catholic church or other similar body – it does beg the question whether the research is biased. In the same way that as a clinician I would be reluctant to accept a study promoting the use of a drug where most of the authors were linked to the pharmaceutical company involved, I have to say I am reluctant to see this report you provide as being fair or unbiased.

    3. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:16am

      hmmmm. so Adam what evidence is there that people we are born straight? Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual… it is how we are born.

      This is how I was born, neither you, or anybody else can make excuses otherwise. This is who I am, This is what makes me, How I was born is who I am.

    4. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:17am

      Adam, you’ll find science has NOT proved anything.

  37. Ha. So what you’re essentially saying is that because they have a point of view that disagrees with your’s their facts are invalid.

    News flash numb skull: the stats are all sourced from objective studies. Not collected by the doctors (who have more scientific qualifications on their toe nail clippings than you do I expect).

    Please don’t allow subjectivity and a hatred of religious people to get in the way of science please :)

    1. objective studies pls dont abuse the term, try American Psychological Association if u want objectivity

    2. like religious people r free from bias, pull another one.

      for the record i have nothing against religious people just dont like their bigotry, often so eloquently displayed

    3. @Adam

      Please read my posts above and you will see that I am keen to ensure that there is fairness towards the religious communities and the LGBT communities… infact equality for all.

      Now, the research may or may not have been collected by others (I admit I havent looked into the background of all the authors of the reports considered in this report). However, the report you present is opinion from people who are linked to organisations which have an official stance against the LGBT communities. Their interpretation in this report is what is being questioned, not necessarily the evidence streams they considered – their opinion is what is being considered.

      As I said above, as a clinician if I was asked to consider a scientific journal article that recommended a drug that was currently only produced by one pharmaceutical company and all the authors in the relevant report had links to that company I would consider that report biased – even if the science was reasonable.

    4. “Please don’t allow subjectivity and a hatred of religious people to get in the way of science please”

      Er, that paper you provided was a load of toss, nothing more then a bunch of christians with medical qualifications looking for any scrap of evidence to deny marriage equality. The back of a cornflake packet is more scientific, and then you have the blind stupidity to lecture us on “subjectivity”???

      Please.

      The only thing you and the other christian bigots have in common for certain is your complete lack of scientific understanding and support of any study, no matter how flawed, once it validates your discrimination and you can feel one bit less the offensive morons you really are.

    5. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:37am

      Adam, the reports are based on religion. Of course they’re going to say being gay is ‘unnatural’. Thats is what religion does. They don’t accept natural laws, equality, other human beings. These are not facts they are merely what religious people Think. There is no study here it is nothing but false rhetoric from know homophobes who will go out of their way to prove other human beings are wrong.

      NewsFlash Idiot:- This has nothing to do with Fact, just more religion theories to continue their right to discriminate. They fail.

      NewsFlash 2:- This is how I was born – Get Used To It and Moreover Get Over IT!

    6. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 8:38am

      Adam

      All your doing is proving quite a few religious people are nothing but idiots.

      1. Jock you’re just as bad dignifying his comments with a response

        1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 10:05am

          Erm and yet I’m at the bottom of the list of others James!

          1. I expect more from you

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:51pm

            er flowers?

            ;)

  38. I think the age is not necessarily a problem. I became sexually aware around the age of 13 and had no doubts i was gay. The survey could be interesting research but we mustn’t think that it would on its own have any effect on bullying. Something as simple as taking children away from the assumption that everyone is or must be heterosexual would be a good start. Teaching them that normal (i.e., the norm) is that some people are gay.

    1. The research would be interesting

      It may inform people who do not see a current problem that there is a problem

      But ultimately the only way bullying will be minimised (as it is unlikely in human society it can be totally eliminated) is by having a culture of support, safety and acceptance of all in schools

  39. For as long as we are unequal in law, children will pick up on it and bully suspected gay classmates.

    Let’s get our legal position sorted first – same sex marriage and the rest of it. Without that we are fighting a losing battle for our children.

    1. Absolutely Philip

  40. Sherri Harber 27 Mar 2011, 11:43pm

    Would anyone be interested in supporting an alternative census request (the original of which we should all have filled in and sent back by now or we will be fined- but we live in a democratic society therefore we do have a choice?) including the option to answer a question about sexuality which your answer could in turn support future research and also influence parlimentary policies affecting the LGBT community and their family and friends?

    1. The point of this survey (which I can see some value for but have more concerns about) is about 11 year old children and them being able to discuss these issues freely. Your mention of the census doesnt seem relevant … unless I am missing something …

      1. My mum was just interested in what the community of pink news thought about the idea of a census also including a question about sexuality.
        But in answer to your sarcasm, we both believe that the children deserve the choice of answering the survey if they want to, if it is taken anonymously in a safe environment, and the kids are given multiple different choices and an ‘other’ box. Children should be given the freedom of choice to answer the survey if they want or need to. When I was 11 I sort of knew my sexuality but didn’t understand it, I would have wanted the choice of a survey and the education to explain what i felt and why.

        1. Jay
          Its difficult to read tone in black and white
          I did not mean to come across as sarcastic – if thats how it was received I apologise
          I see that a survey could be a useful tool to some people, perhaps in my experience it may have been useful. I wonder whether there are better ways to educate and to ensure an accepting environment …

        2. Jock S. Trap 31 Mar 2011, 9:57am

          Jay

          I totally agree, I would have found it helpful too.

          Too many people are too dismissive.

  41. It’s hard to say whether 11 is ‘too young’ to ask children about their sexuality – I for one had not idea what I was at 11 but of course others did so really there’s no one age at which you can say that people should have figured it out by. Regardless, I think that what’s really needed isn’t questioning but education.
    That said. whilst education generally helps with bullying from peers it won’t do anything about bullying from older family members, and it could be a good idea to try and monitor who might at risk of parental abuse concerning their sexuality.

  42. Until they can make it safe for LGBT children to be LGBT and if the children come out as LGBT, they need to leave the kids alone. Smells like Christians in there and the possibility of deprogramming the LGBT children if the information got out. That would be worse than what the Catholic Priest did to the children they abused. Save the life of a child and keep the bad people away from the kids and let the kids grow up being kids. God knows their life is going to be a living hell the way things are going now. Some people need to get out of the sex lives of people and children. It is the last private thing we have left. Fight to keep it free.

  43. @Adam – you cannot lecture others or attack them for acknowledging that they we’re born gay as you can’t prove otherwise and you aren’t them

    1. So this Adam clown knows more about me than I do. He must be struggling and projecting. Ha!

      1. Yep – probably feels drawn towards other men and struggles to repress these urges therefore says being gay is a choice.

        Sad

      2. Seems like he deserves unhappiness

        1. I am certainly confused why he needs to air his views on a gay website …

          1. I’m not he made the choice not to be gay and wants us to be as miserable as him like skinner

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 2:42pm

            coz some people’s urges always get the better of em!

          3. Still confused …

            Maybe I see things too simplistically sometimes …

            The thing I seem to get is that he seems to believe being gay is wrong, and a sin … if so, why would he want to be contaminated by gay people who are wrong – or even saturate his mind with people who are discussing a variety of gay issues …

            For the record, he is entirely wrong – but if you believed the things he does – would you come on a gay website?

  44. I think the jury is still out on whether being gay is genetic, a product of environment, or possibly both.

    However, the end result is still the same and that person’s sexuality is beyond their control, so it doesn’t really matter. Many say they knew at a very early age, I was the opposite and didn’t figure it out until I was in my thirties. The fact of the matter is you cannot hide or bury it, you cannot change it, and you cannot ‘cure’ it.

    It is foolish to try and determine someone’s sexuality at any age, they will figure it out for themselves in time, and ‘researchers’ stomping around in size 12 boots asking intimate questions is crass and unnecessary. If the kids want advice, ensure there are ways for them to get help if they want it, but otherwise, leave them alone.

  45. The perfect argument for a small state. Why dont they leave the parents to look after their own kids

    1. Because a small state leads to homeschooling. And homeschooling leads to Wendy Wright.

      So I think we have to find a fine line between letting parents do their job and having the state put every single thing into guidelines.

      1. There will be anti gay people in the echr who may leak info back to parents or schools. This is the kids private business and should not have anything to do with the state.

        1. My gut feeling is that the sexual orientation of anyone is only the business of them and those people who they choose to make it known to – regardless of age.

          I suspect there would be mechanisms in place to protect the young people from being identified (and they would probably be particularly robust given the age of those the report would focus on); but I do not feel comfortable in “questioning” young people on orientation.

          Lets make school inclusive and accepting of all – that should be our priority

          1. Well you have far more trust in the state than me

          2. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 2:43pm

            Stu

            I agree with that last line, most definitel.

          3. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 2:43pm

            er definitely

          4. @James!

            Maybe I don’t have trust … maybe I just recognise that people who work for the state have a passion for covering their own backs and would hate to be exposed particularly for significantly inappropriate disclosure, so they will develop systems that are both difficult to infiltrate and also penalties for those that do – comes from working in the emergency services for years – often the senior managers may not have the ethical stance we would like – but maintain ethics because the alternative in terms tenability of their position or future progression would be in severe doubt if they were exposed as committing inappropriate acts or condoning/permitting them

  46. Also even if it was true that only 25% of monozygotic twins shared their sexuality, this would in no way refute the existence of a genetic component of homosexuality. At most only 10% of pop are gay, thus as the proportion of gay twins is higher than the rate in the general pop this suggests a genetic component.

    For example, imagine that the general rate of diabetes in the population was 5%, yet the number of twins who both had diabetes was 25% this would suggest a genetic component.

    I however must add that I do not really value twin studies as there are huge methological flaws.

    The best argument for innate homosexuality is the fact that children raised by non genetic homosexual parents are no more likely to be gay than children raised by non genetic heterosexual parents.
    (Look on Cambridge centre for family research for Loads of studies, note as well studies in a peer reviewed format from a respectable institution).

  47. this sounds wrong! far too young. from 15/16 years of age think OK! even though we all go through different experiences!

    1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 11:38am

      That was 5/6 years of homophobic bullying and threats for me, Daniel.

    2. Silly thing to say, you might’ve only started to realise at that age. I knew when I was 13. This notion that children can’t know their sexuality at this age just seems quite ageist to me. I know that at that age, there is likely to be a lot of confusion, but some people know regardless. And anyway, nobody seems to be telling 11 year olds in heterosexual “relationships” that they may be confused about their sexuality.

      1. Jock S. Trap 29 Mar 2011, 10:28am

        Exactly. This goes on the much familiar trait that clearly Gay people, no matter what age cannot have minds of their own.

        It’s wrong and insulting.

  48. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 11:55am

    Isn’t this really about people not wanting to think of their children exploring sex? Yet I had a friend at school who was pregnant at 12/13 years old. Britian has the highest underage pregnanices in Europe. How many have sex before 16, Gay, Lesbian or Straight? Yet this is happening despite sex education not because of it.

    Isn’t it better to explain things before experimenting begins? It’s a subject nobody particularly wants to talk about but it doesn’t take away the fact it is happening.

    1. I think many would rather not think about sex and even then not think about kids who are LBG

      1. Jock S. Trap 28 Mar 2011, 1:53pm

        I agree Chester but isn’t that part of the problem?

        No-one wants to think it but isn’t why kids are getting bullied… or pregnant.

  49. What on earth is this obsession with shoving people into a pigeon hole? The EHRC seems to more to create divisions than actually celebrate equality. Now they want to do it to Children!!!

    Leave children be and let them enjoy their childhood. Teach them about equality & diversity by all means, but stop trying to shove them into a box. It’s this mentality that creates the damned problems in the first place

    1. Jock S. Trap 29 Mar 2011, 1:21pm

      I didn’t enjoy mine because I was labelled then bullied and discriminated against for years of my school-life. That leave me with no childhood, certainly not a happy one. It was taken away from me by bigots and their children.

      How is that fair or right?

  50. Same with me Edward, and the same with Stu (below)- you can “know” that you’re different in terms of sexual attraction without being secure in the knowlege at that age.

    I’m not sure how I would have handled the questions that this study is trying to ask at 11, however, and wonder if I had been asked what i would have said. Of course, it really depends which environment the children are situated. If they live in a home/family/neighbourhood which views gay/lesbian sex negatively, I’m sure the answers will be different than if the child is in a open environment.

  51. Schools should be places were children should be free and safe to talk about their sexuality or gender issues. However questioning them about it seems somewhat obtrusive

  52. I didnt have a sexuality until i was 15 plus.

    It is far far too early to enforce such intrusion into developing young people.

    1. Jock S. Trap 31 Mar 2011, 9:58am

      What about those of us that already knew and were bullied for it?

      Don’t/didn’t we have any rights?

      1. You should have had, Jock

        and what about providing an inclusive environment that is supportive to facilitate those of us that were shocked and confused by the thoughts we may be gay – surely we should have the right to be affirmed that its ok to be the way we are?

  53. to those saying that at 11 and 12 they didn’t know about their sexuality i came out at 12 to my best friend and tht was tht i never really got confused, i just knew. but everyones different
    it would have been really great to have an adult or someone to tell who wouldnt jufge me for it but i think tht the fact tht its part of research would hv put me off. kids need a safe environment

    1. Jock S. Trap 31 Mar 2011, 10:00am

      Yep, same here, I never had any confusion I just was me. I do wish people would stop trying everyone the same.

      I can’t believe so many people are against helping children be in a safer enviroment.

      It seems incredibilty naive to me and they are the ones telling children they are, without seeing the damage they cause.

  54. Stephen Frost 12 Jul 2011, 2:50pm

    I knew at 12. Others I knew knew when they were 7. Others I know knew when they were more like 18! It really varies. I think the schools should be providing a safe place and support for them when they realise, that they can access whent hey want to. Actively trying to find out their sexuality seems like an invasion of privacy and most children would probably be confused or unsure. I can certainly think of a fewschoolfriends who thought “ooh, i’m gay, i’m bi, i’m gay, i’m bi” and a few who were in denial for a while before coming out etc. Just provide support for when they want and need it.

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