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Survey: Most US Catholics support gay rights

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  1. Tolerance and acceptance from the church (or at least some of its members) …

    I hope we can see two things, both the growth of understanding and support in the church communities of LGBT people and the issues that face us, and …

    A decrease in the attacks full of vitriol from within the LGBT communities that spuriously condemn all Christians as being homophobic – it just is not true, and is not a grown up argument

    1. Yes its our fault they hate us you coward and did you noticed that we didnt get the number of people in the survey so its a load of rubbish

      1. @James!

        Could you explain why I’m a coward.

        I shall go and research the origin of the report, I am sure somewhere it states the number surveyed – and that is a journalistic issue rather than a report issue.

        This is also a positive portrayal of the LGBT communities … so why is it then rubbish?

        1. Stu
          It’s your language.
          You want understanding and support from the church makes you sound like a bitch. I want them to keep the fcuk out of my business.
          You tell us to decrease the attacks full of vitriol like the church havent sent their finest to rip us apart.
          In your language the church is kind benelovent and we are full of hate and vitirol.

          I work to the rule if you knock me out I’ll send you to your maker

          1. @James!
            Actually, I don’t want understanding and support from the church. What I want is for LGBT rights to be global and complete. That requires that every aspect of life, and whether you like it or not that includes faith organisations, to accept and comply with LGBT rights.
            I think far from being cowardly requires significant courage.
            You might feel that faith issues are irrelevant to you. Thats fine. They are however, relevant to many – including many within the LGBT communities.
            If you look at my comments as a whole then you will see that I believe there are many within both the church and the LGBT communities that are full of vitriol and hate, equally there are many in the church and the LGBT communities that are benevolent and kind.
            The reality is that in life there are gay people (thank God!) and there are people of faith. Therefore, we need to understand we may encounter each other – and it would be better if both sides exercised tolerance. That need discussion to work.

          2. Stu

            this is your comment

            “A decrease in the attacks full of vitriol from within the LGBT communities that spuriously condemn all Christians as being homophobic – it just is not true, and is not a grown up argument”

          3. I hope we can see two things, both the growth of understanding and support in the church communities of LGBT people and the issues that face us, and …

            A decrease in the attacks full of vitriol from within the LGBT communities that spuriously condemn all Christians as being homophobic – it just is not true, and is not a grown up argument

            you slagged us off good and proper

          4. @James!

            Ok, I apologise that the one comment there taken in isolation could be perceived as suggesting the entire LGBT communities were conducting such attacks.

            That was never my intention.

            If you look at all my comments on this thread and elsewhere you will see that is not my view.

            I am a gay man and I and many other LGBT friends and others who are not friends aim to be understanding, accepting and tolerant of all regardless of faith – I am human, I sometimes fail …

            However, it can not be denied that there are some very aggressive attacks particularly against those of faith on the discussion threads. It is those attacks that I hope will decrease – partly because they stereotype and partly because they do the LGBT communities no favours.

          5. Your problem is that you think we bring all this anti gay hostility on ourselves. If we were nicer and more friendly they will love us. You sir are a pussy.

          6. @James!

            It is totally untrue that I believe that either the LGBT community or individual gay people “bring this all on ourselves”.

            I can’t think of any circumstances where homophobia would be a result of any action of the LGBT communities or individual. It is due to the prejudice and ignorance of the individual or those making the homophobic comments or attacks.

            I absolutely believe in confrontation. Ignorance needs to be exposed – sometimes people learn the error of their ways by doing so.

            I also believe totally in human rights and to treat everyone with respect.

            James, the fact you believe I am a “pussy” is of no concern to me. I know how strongly I will defend my principles and beliefs. My friends also can evidence this. I have often won debates without resorting to personal vindictive attacks … and have put myself in dangerous situations both personally and professionally.

          7. I’m done with you

          8. @James!

            Now thats the comment of a pussy

            “I’m done with you”

            I perceive thats because, you recognise the sense in what I am saying

          9. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:16pm

            James!

            Surely like anything, the more there are LGBT people within the religion the more likely religion will change. Without them they won’t. Gay Christians are important, if Christianity is to continue they need to be there to make a difference. Same with any other religion. Weither we like it or not, I’m afraid it’s a fact.

          10. @Jock S Trap

            I totally agree with you – the continuance of the individual faiths is of no concern to me – the reality is that faith groups exist and they are more likely to be more accepting and tolerant with LGBT people within them. LGBT Christians and Muslims etc should be supported both by the LGBT communities and by their own faith groups. Whether we like that or not, its a fact

          11. They can definitely stay the hell out of my business. I don’t care if they like me or not. Where I have an issue is when they think their religion trumps my rights. They do not.

      2. @James!

        It is true that some Christians hate the LGBT community

        but it is a lie to suggest all do

        1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 12:33pm

          What you’ll find is a Christian homphobic story will be met with anger and quite rightly we attack that. Because there seems to be to too many of those kinds of stories we don’t hear the reverse. We don’t hear religious people speaking out against those who do, so many Gay people will be angry and resentful.

          Plus when we get a more positive story like this I think we right treat is as suspect some never some more lighter.

          With religion there doesn’t seem to be a balance. Of course the media could be mostly to blame for that because since when has positive news made money. (Apparently). Mostly though it is because so many in religion who genuinely think we are wrong.

          No-one would stand for that, thats why they hate us even more.

          1. @ Jock S Trap

            I agree with almost all of your comment.

            It is understandable and justified to respond to any homophobia, whether that be religious based or otherwise.

            I agree part of the reason we don’t hear about those from faith groups speaking out against homophobia and supporting the LGBT communities is due to media bias or manipulation.

            I agree that for probably the majority of leadership of religious groups, and a significant proportion of the members of those groups there is a lack of balance is debate.

            I would say that some of the reaction from some people within the LGBT communities is not balanced either.

            I would also say that the use of language (whether intentional or not) tends to accuse every member of faith groups of being homophobic – and as many of my friends are from different faith groups, I have to categorically say that is not correct.

            So, the last sentence “Thats why they hate us even more” isn’t accurate and arguably inflammatory.

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:20pm

            Still fact though. You look at that B&B couple in Cornwall or that awful foster couple in Derby. They hate the fact that we are standing up to them because they’ll been used to getting their own way pretty much for centuries.

            These court cases are all about because we are standing up against their bigotry. And right so.

          3. @Jock S Trap

            Yeah the reason there are cases like the ones in Cornwall and Derbyshire is, in part, due to the LGBT communities being more willing to stand up against the prejudice of faith groups and others. Its not something that faith groups have been used to (from the LGBT communities). Yes, there have been challenges in the past, but not as often and not with as much support behind them. We need to continue doing this.

            However, (I know you acknowledge that LGBT Christians should be encouraged) we still need to temper our language sometimes, otherwise it can seem as though we are suggesting all Christians are homophobic and then discourage LGBT Christians

        2. Stu

          its up to the christians to prove their no asshole I’m not going looking for the nice ones

          1. @James!

            I wouldnt expect you to go looking for them.

            Equally, you seem an intelligent and articulate guy – so I would expect you not to stereotype

      3. The report was based on research from the American Values Survey by the American Association of Public Opinion Research and randomly surveyed 3013 people, which in most quantitative studies would be regarded as a reasonable sample.

        1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 12:37pm

          So thats 3013 liberal Catholics questioned.

          I actually hate small polls because I can’t see how much a small amount can speak for millions. Esp when you know many as I say are used as weapons but certain Christians.

          1. Well its actually quite a large sample in statistical terms. In most political opinion polls the sample is around 1000

            I do agree though that statistics are easily subject to manipulation.

            The fact remains though, this story is good for the LGBT communities. Shouldn’t stop us attacking homophobia from anywhere, including within the church. It could be seen as an indication of the success of years of campaigning for rights having some measure of success.

            My reason for mentioning the vitriol of some LGBT comments was not because I think all LGBT people do that or are filled with hate for the church, far from it. It was that such attacks can set back our cause in gaining equality.

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:25pm

            They might well be good figures. So 43% of Catholics agree with Equal Marriage. 71% Agree with the LGBT being able to have Civil marriage. 37% of the General public agreed with Equal marriage.

            Now which one do you think the good ol Christian Institute will use? 37%?

        2. There’s 1.6bn of the fcukers

          1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:25pm

            Too many is a fairer comment!

  2. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 11:44am

    This is not a surprise really. Most Roman Catholics while still professing their faith tend to live their lives according to their concience these days, as they see Rome for what it is. An anachronism filled with out of touch old men and ex naz!s with paedo tendencies and totally without relevance to their lives. The bible is a rarity in any Catholic home so most Catholics would regard Homosexuality for wht it is , no different from the color of ones eyes. This tends to be the attitude in a lot of “catholic” European countries with large RC populations as well, with a few exceptions like Italy. Surpriseingly Ireland would probably be top of the list for this sort of tolerence today.

    1. I dont want to be tolerated like a fart in a lift thank you. If that the best theyve got they can shove it

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 2:37pm

        @ James…don’t be so damn pedantic. You have a serious chip in your shoulder.

        1. And you don’t? And you calling others pedantic? LOL

          1. @Edward

            If Paddyswurds has a chip on his shoulder, its an entirely different type of potato to James …

    2. @Paddyswurds …

      Firstly, I fully accept that there is probably a greater incidence of acceptance in western Catholics of LGBT rights, than elsewhere. This probably correlates to a greater awareness in the general population of LGBT in the nations concerned.

      I also accept that the Holy See and its leadership are anachronistic and out of touch. They as individuals bear little relevance to the members of the church or to the wider world, particularly in areas of relationships.

      However, that does not mean that the issues of faith and belief are irrelevant to members of the church.

      I find it disappointing, although understandable, that many within the LGBT communities choose to attack all members of faith communities despite there are many within those communities that welcome LGBT integration and LGBT equality. I find it bizarre that when reports are positive for LGBT communities that attacks continue – consistent I suppose.

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 2:31pm

        @Stu ..*
        **However, that does not mean that the issues of faith and belief are irrelevant to members of the church. **……I have reread my comment several times and can find no reason for the quoted comment above. In fact i said…**.Most Roman Catholics while still professing their faith tend to live their lives according to their concience these days, as they see Rome for what it is. ** Are you attempting a “cut across” Stu. Perhaps you could point out my error.

        1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 2:36pm

          cont… and where did i make this necessary………………….
          “I find it disappointing, although understandable, that many within the LGBT communities choose to attack all members of faith communities despite there are many within those communities that welcome LGBT integration and LGBT equality”
          If you are making a general comment , dont make it look as though it’s a reply or rebuttal of the valid points i made.

          1. @Paddyswurds

            First of all, apologies that comment certainly doesn’t fit a direct response to your direct post that it replies to.

            I do stand by the comments, but they did not relate to the specific post I was replying.

        2. @Paddyswurds

          What I was referring to was your comment about many Catholic homes not having a Bible etc. This could be taken as meaning they are nominal Catholics and that faith is little more than a label, a tradition, a family affair – rather than a personal decision and a learned choice.
          What I was trying to say is that just because they may not engage with their faith in the manner that Rome prescribe eg regular church attendance etc does not necessarily mean they do not have faith, does not mean they are nominal …
          If they have faith then there are clearly both issues of conscience as you quite rightly discuss, but also potentially conflict both with teachings from Rome and with others within the church membership who also struggle with some teachings. I was trying to say the faith may have relevance to their lives, contrary to your comment “totally without relevance to their lives”
          Make some sense?

          1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:16pm

            @Stu…sorry to say wrong again I said , “as they see Rome for what it is. An anachronism filled with out of touch old men and ex naz!s with paedo tendencies and totally without relevance to their lives”. How is that a reference to their Faith?

          2. @paddyswurds

            You said “totally without relevance to their lives”

            I said ” your comment “totally without relevance to their lives”

            So, from a purely word perspective we are at the same place … its obviously context and interpretation where the issue is …

            I shall try and be clearer on what I interpreted from you and what I was trying to say.

            The message I got was that most Catholics (presumably in the west) were not devout in terms of attendance at church, having a Bible in their home, acceptance of the directions on lifestyle etc. from the Holy See etc etc. In this I felt you were saying their faith was nominal, they had a lack of respect for the leadership, partly because of the nominal faith and lack of relevance of the leadership.

            I was trying to say that they may see the leadership as lacking relevance and not participate in faith activities such as worship regularly etc but still have a deep seated belief structure eg believe in creation, believe in God, Jesus, etc etc

  3. I’m not at all surprised at this, I was raised Catholic and to some extent I still define myself as Catholic, and I’ve always thought the church (small c) is very, very tolerant.

    The way that British Catholics view Rome is a highly skeptical one, they don’t take it at face value, especially given the way that they were asked to pay for tickets to see the Pope, most of them still remember going to see John Paul II for free.

    I also think that more tolerance of Christian beliefs by the LGBT community would be a good thing, we can all get along side-by-side… Don’t be hatin’.

    1. Tolerance and acceptance are not the same

      1. You’re quite right, we should accept them and they should accept us.

        1. Indeed. Tem first

          1. @James!

            Why not both at the same time?

          2. We didnt start this anti gay shizzle

          3. @James

            Firstly, I wholeheartedly and actively condemn those that do display bigotry in all forms – including those religious people who are homophobic. However, I do recognise that just because some people in a group hold a bigoted viewpoint that does not mean all members of that group hold the same view.

            We may not have started the anti gay propaganda but some of the LGBT communities have continued and fed the hatred by developing an anti faith stance. Not all, some …

            “We didnt start it” sounds very much like language of the playground

          4. shooo you jesus freak

          5. @James!

            Jesus freak – far from it …

            Now there is stereotyping if I ever heard it …

            I have no faith. I am agnostic.

            I do passionately believe that all human rights are important and the LGBT communities are not immune from failing to respect others rights.

            That is not all members of the LGBT communities, but some – including you

        2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:27pm

          Actually I firmly believe how we are born should be accepted. So Gay, Lesbian, Straight etc

          How we choose to live our lives is only what should be tolerated. So thats religion lifestyles etc.

          1. @Jock S Trap

            I am totally with you on how we are born – so race, orientation, gender, disability etc should be accepted …

            How we choose to live (well some of that – because that could be extended intoi things I would be personally accept on my moral compass!) should certainly be tolerated … I guess it can get into a bit of play on words at this point, but I accept my best friends faith – I dont believe it myself, I have tolerated going to church with them for a special event once or twice and accepted it mattered to my friend, but I dont hold them same belief structure
            Make Sense?

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:59pm

            It does make sense. I have many friends from all different faiths and other walks of life. Whilst I don’t believe, I have always been interested, it’s what make an interesting life. The key is to be allowed to say what you feel, strong debates thrive on diversity, without being offensive but also to be allowed to question when you feel you have been without fear of upsetting others. It is important to be able to know each other well enough that you finish with a drink and a handshake or whatever floats ya boat.

          3. @Jock S Trap
            If you get on well with someone then you can have lively discussions without being offensive, threatening or upsetting them on all sorts of issues – including the ones that some say should be avoided at all costs i.e. politics, religion and sexuality.
            Sorry for the typos in the above post – a bit off colour today which is affecting my typing!
            Absolutely, it is important that when had the interesting discussions that you are able to close with a beer, handshake or whatever …

    2. Absolutely, there are aspects of both the Catholic hierarchy and some of the more evangelical elements of the catholic (small c) church that ought to be regarded with, at best, scepticism.

      However, tolerance and understanding, from both the wider church, the leadership – and also from the LGBT communities – would be beneficial to ensuring that the rights of all are respected

    3. I tolerate Christian beliefs much as I tolerate Andersen’s beautiful stories.

      My tolerance and acknowledgement of their existence still doesn’t make them true. Forget about the truth even, being religious is used as an excuse for bigotry and worn as a badge of honour.

      There will be no pandering to the religious as far as I’m concerned. Doing so might buy you brownie points in the short term, but it’s an act of crime towards the intellect in the longer.

      1. Thanks you.

        See Stu you’re chatting bollocks

  4. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 12:26pm

    These polls are misleading and it shows how they can be used against an arguement esp by Christians.

    They say 37% of the general public support ‘Gay’ marriage, then 71% but didn’t a poll a couple of weeks ago show 52% of the general public support it. I think another showed 64%.

    Religion will take the lowest polled of course to try and succeed in an arguement.

    Politicals need to listen to its voters and stop dithering on the issue and open up marriage for everyone.

    As for the Catholics support, it’s refreshing and a darn sight better than Christians. It’s time the supportive within started making their voice heard.

    1. It doesn’t even say how many people were polled so it pointless

      1. @James!

        See above comments – answers your questions on number of people polled etc and if you want more information on the study I can direct you to the entire report and the survey it was based upon

        1. 3013 questiones out of 1.6bn

          0.002% yes its going to be accurate

          1. There are not 1.6 billion catholics in the USA. THis was a survey on catholics in the usa. A group which are largely going to have different opinions to say catholics in poland.

          2. The percentage of the population questioned is irrelevant. The sample must be representative of the population and sufficiently numerous in itself to make chance deviations acceptably unlikely. 3013 is more than adequate for that purpose.

          3. @Brian-E

            Absolutely 3013 is an adequate sample

            Its more than most political opinion polls have

            The thing with this article is that its favourable for the LGBT community, but shock horror – it involves those of faith – so some people in the LGBT community don’t like it

          4. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 2:46pm

            @ James…the population is approx. 309 million with about 24% of those being RC.

      2. As far as I’m concerned 1 is too many

        1. 1 what is too many?

          1 bigot – yes that is too many

      3. 1.6 bn? Thats 5 times the population of the USA! Keep things in perspective! there are 68 Million Catholics in the USA, similar to the population of the UK and most polls here are of generally 1,000-2,000 people to be considered a reasonable sample size.

    2. @Jock S Trap

      You can use the argument about lies, damn lies and statistics (which appears to be the basic principle you are expressing) about anything, whether it be related to LGBT issues, faith or otherwise …

      The LGBT communities have been guilty of utilisation of statistics to reinforce their arguments in the past. That isn’t a bad thing – as often you need to have evidence to advance a cause.

      As I have said elsewhere there are many within the Catholic church, and the wider christian church that do support LGBT issues. They do so actively (and sometimes quietly) – but the media does not report them, because it does not make good news or because the media themselves are biased.

  5. Christine Beckett 24 Mar 2011, 12:34pm

    Well now…

    The thing is that under the vatican’s doctrinal rules, those US catholics who actively support gay rights have to consider themselves excommunicated, and withhold from taking the sacraments; a punishment, incidentally, that also applies to all catholics who vote for a pro-abortion politician.

    Catholicism is not a Pick N Mix religion, folk. If you don’t play by the pope’s rules, you don’t play, period.

    So if you are just a catholic out of habit, or because you want the company, comfort, and a bit of ceremony now and again, then why not leave and join a more humane, enlightened and reasonable religion instead?

    chrissie
    xxxx

    1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 2:55pm

      @chrissie……….”then why not leave and join a more humane, enlightened and reasonable religion instead?”
      And that would be…????
      When exactly did the Inquisition restart chrissie?. No one stands at the church door and asks “do you agree with his naz! holiness in all matters relating to the RC church including Paedophilia.”…I dont think so. Rome is barely tolerated by most of the laity in the western RC church.

      1. @Paddyswurds

        Hopefully this message will post, this is the fifth time I have tried to post it! Aargh!

        Whilst I am agnostic and not a member of any faith grouping, if a friend wanted to explore a church that was LGBT supportive; I would suggest they may want to explore the MCC.

        1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 11:18pm

          @ Stu… at the risk of being called intolerant , i must comment on your Agnosticism. Is it not a little cowardly to say the least. I totally respect your right to hold that view but also claim the right to hold the view i do about agnostics or religion in general.. I have no doubt about the view that i hold and that is,the idea of a God is totally without foundation given that we know without any doubt where that idea came from in the First place.
          The Minds of uneducated illiterate fearful tribes wandering the deserts of Egypt and Palestine 4 or 5 thousand years ago. Even if that wasn’t the case the very idea is to my mind, preposperous.

          1. @Paddyswurds

            Well that was a surprising twist in the debate …

            Nonetheless, firstly as you say you are entitled to the view that being agnostic is cowardly. I wouldnt say that is intolerant.

            You are entitled to hold the views and beliefs that you do. Equally, I am entitled to hold mine and we are both entitled to challenge and question them.

            Part of the reason I am agnostic is that I knew there is compelling historical evidence supportive of some of the accounts of the Bible. It is clear that some of those wandering tribes were not illiterate and more sophisticated than we might imagine.

            There are other reasons I am agnostic – some of it I can make no sense of in terms of believing in a spiritual realm – just a inward feeling.

            That said on logical appraisal of significant issues I remain unconvinced in either direction. Some days I am more probelieving and other days almost completely atheist – but at the moment quite agnostic.

            That said even if I was 100% convinced ..

          2. … of a God, then I would not join an organised religion (I dont think) as the evidence of many organised faiths is they become entrenched, damaging and sad organisations that fail to recognise the good of others outside their groupings

    2. Nikki Hatch 24 Mar 2011, 3:26pm

      Bravo!. My sentiments exactly. I realize trhe presence of GLBT people ultimately forces discusiion of these topics, which is a good thing, but when your donations are going to fund anti-GLBT actions then I have a problem with it.

  6. It’s your language.
    You want understanding and support from the church makes you sound like a bitch. I want them to keep the fcuk out of my business.
    You tell us to decrease the attacks full of vitriol like the church havent sent their finest to rip us apart.
    In your language the church is kind benelovent and we are full of hate and vitirol.

    I work to the rule if you knock me out I’ll send you to your maker

    1. @James!

      You complain about my language …

      I shall comment no further other than suggest others look at some of your language on here …

      1. I use foul language you use concessionary and defeatist which is much worse

        1. @James!

          I am not defeatist in the slightest – I am totally for LGBT rights … you clearly seek to portray something in my message which is not there

          Believing all humans have rights that are universal is not concessionary

        2. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:28pm

          @James! what utter rubbish. Foul language stifels debate and is usually the sign that someone realises that they are losing the debate and have no repost other than abuse. some of the baser commentators on these threads display this trait quite often unfortunately. If someone uses concessionary or defeatist language that is their right or may be simply that you see it as such and again have no opinion of rebuttal. I suggest you tak some time out to brueh up on the finer points of debate.

          1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:30pm

            errata….take…..brush**

          2. @Paddyswurds

            Thanks …

            I like debating with some of you guys on here (Am acutely aware I dont agree with you all – although on some things we are very in tune on)

  7. So 57% of u.s. catholics support inequality. And the 43% that support gay marraige are quasi RC as they do not follow their religions teachings only pick and mix, usual religious hypocrisy.

    1. @Rapture …

      Did the report ask any of them the regularity of their attendance at church or how devout they were in any other manner? – Having read the report, I can say no it did not. So your comment supposing that they are quasi RC is disingenuous, and guessing. There may be some element of that which is true. Equally all 43% could be regular attenders. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. The issue about “pick and mix” may have some merit, although I would argue that they may have room for personal conscience in some areas as the Catholic leadership are seen by their members as out of touch

      1. The catholic church’s teaching on homosexuality is uncompromising, to proclaim to be a member of this oraganisation and have a contradictory view to its fundamental dogma is hypocritical. Religion is a lifestyle choice. If the views of whatever religion contradict ones morals , their choice is to leave with a clear conscience rather than choose some aspects of the religion to follow or attempt to alter. If they cannot abide by the religion , then why bother to want membership.

        1. @rapture
          Whilst you are correct that the teaching of the Catholic church on homosexuality is pretty much uncompromising; there is an argument that things are better changed from within – and certainly the Latin American Catholic church are currently challenging the RC church on issues of discrimination.
          I suspect that its difficult for everyone to find a faith or for example political party where they agree with everything that is said. I can’t really comment on faith personally, but from a political party perspective – everytime I have voted for a political party there has always been some aspect of policy that I disagreed with.

          1. yes and you have the choice to remove support from any party you feel is not representative of something you feel strongly about , particularly morally. The same choice is open to pick n mix catholics. And i don’t agree with the changing from within its akin to forming a relationship with someone and then trying to adapt their identity for your own motives. Why bother to invest in that organisation if you wish to change it.

  8. I feel I need to add again that there is a huge difference between catholic church hierarchy (vatican, bishops etc) and catholic church membership.
    As catholics in western nations tend to be poorer and have experienced discrimination themselves they are also likely to be more liberal.

    1. Totally agree Scott

  9. “…This week, a Vatican official told the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva that Catholics were being “vilified” for their views against homosexuality…”

    Queer Vadis?

    1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:00pm

      @John This was his futile attempt to explain results which are clearly not what his naz! holiness would wish….”Condoms let HIV through you know”

      1. @Paddyswurds

        The Vatican official had a lot to say in Geneva but I don’t recall him even mentioning condoms in the articles I read.

        1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:37pm

          @Stu… as i wrote that i thought “someone will pull me on this” but i didn’t expect it to be you.
          It was merely an attempt at irony in which i sought to show the ridicuality of the RC heirarchy, Ratzi the naz! in particular who did say this sometime back in one of his encyclicals or what wvere they are called.

          1. @Paddyswurds

            Lol – I wasn’t so much pulling you up as finding the condoms comment amusing

            Some of the comments of the Vatican respresentative were disturbing to say the least.

            Yeah I call them proclamations but I know thats the wrong word …

            I notice you’ve missed out on a chance to use the word paedo where there was a reference to the Catholic church *ducks*

          2. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 11:29pm

            @Stu…ducks??

          3. @Paggyswurds

            I would have expected a friendly clip around the ears for my cheek in the last message hence me ducking ….

  10. It is a positive message and, along with the UN Gay rights resolution, sends a message to the Vatican about how far removed they are from ordinary people who identify as Catholic.
    Every story on here seems to be taken over by the hate brigade… everybody knows there is a long way to go before we have equality but do we have to damn everybody, even those who are bare no malice to us regardless of what we perceive to be their affiliations?

    Perhaps we need to look at the hatred exemplified by many on here for other minority groups before we start demanding acceptance from everyone. tolerance on the other hand is a human right for all.
    I am surprised the blog hasn’t been taken over by the small but very vocal minority to use it as yet another excuse to expound there hate of Asian people or Muslim people. I’m sure it won’t take them long!

    1. my irony detector is flashing

    2. The report is indeed a very positive message for the LGBT community and those christians of all denominations who support the LGBT community.

      I would like to see more christians being supportive of the LGBT community.

      Equally I would like to see those gay people who repeatedly aggressive and offensive in their condemnation of people of faith, temper their language and behaviour. Many within the church deserve condemnation and challenge – but how those challenges are framed and delivered matters both in terms of success and the wider rights for all.

      I don’t demand acceptance from all, but I do seek it.

      Tolerance is indeed a right we should all be entitled to.

      I am pleased that (so far) those that regularly chip in with their vile hatred of Muslims and Asians haven’t joined in. Not that it really is relevant on this discussion thread.

      Lets challenge and condemn when its appropriate, not stereotyping entire groups on the basis of the behaviour of some but do it decently.

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:02pm

        @Stu…hear hear

  11. Engaging in ANY HOMOSEXUAL act is a sin. Love the sinner not the sin.

    1. Well if I’m going to hell at least I wont have to deal with c unts like you

      1. @James!

        If Wendy is correct – then I will be in hell with you too …

        That may or may not be a good thing …

        But in many ways it should be a fun place to be – if she’s right …

        1. Well any port in a storm as they say

          1. Sometimes it can be quite entertaining in a storm lol

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:32pm

            Sometimes I can be entertaining in a port!

            :P

          3. Why do I suddenly think of sailors …;-p

          4. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:04pm

            @ all …i have often been entertaining in port and deffo at sea…..

          5. The stories I could tell lol

          6. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:41pm

            @Stu i actually was a sailor for 5 years on the QE2 among others…….Ah the memories……. ;-))

          7. @Paddyswurds

            Sounds fun … something I was always interested in doing but my career pathway took me elsewhere – I suppose I still could …

    2. That may be your understanding of what the Bible says Wendy – and I suspect we will have to agree to disagree about that …

      However, if you hold that view – what are you doing on a gay website – seems odd …

      Secondly, many people of faith would profoundly disagree with you …

      Finally, your contention suggests that you condemn all those born gay to torment because they can’t express the way they were created in a loving monogamous relationship (if that is their desire). I am sure you will believe your God is loving, and I can not comprehend how a loving God would create someone as gay, knowing they are exposed to ongoing torment. Doesn’t wash.

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:07pm

        @Stu ….I find very little in Abrahamic religion that will wash, tbh

    3. I try to love people who believe in invisible spirits who apparently disapprove of what I do with various bits of my anatomy, but it is very difficult.
      OK, I admit it. I don’t try to love them at all. I just try to ignore them most of the time. The trouble is, that’s quite difficult as well.

      1. Why are so many “people of faith” (the correct pc term i think) obsessed with sex? And more to the point, about what other consenting adults are allegedly up to? Despite NHS cuts, I am sure your GP can refer you to a good psychiatrist or you could save the tax payer some money and just invest in a dildo!

        1. Totally with you on that one G.A.Y., and I also wonder why people of faith feel it is necessary to participate in a gay website – sometimes its amusing, usually just infuriating … I do find it odd that they come on here, don’t get it …

          1. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:12pm

            @ anyone…Can someone tell me who decreed that sexuality should be the remit of religion?
            It is a basic function of all life on this planet and no doubt is likewise anywhere else life exists. In other words “Butt the fcuk out of my bedroom”

          2. @Paddyswurds

            I suspect that as religion of any sort is to do with either relationship with each other and a spiritual being or to do with conduct and behaviour – that is the argument that sexuality comes within the remit of religion – as it is deemed to relate to all aspects of ones life and conduct

            Thats speaking as an agnostic …

          3. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:45pm

            @Stu………… well speaking as an atheist i still say ” Religion stay the fcuk out of my bedroom.!!!”

          4. @Paddyswurds

            Wouldn’t be at the top of the list of things I would want in my bedroom either!

        2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:37pm

          “people of faith” don’t believe we are “Born This Way” they think it’s a choice then try to belittle us by saying we have no minds of our own to live our own lives..

          Unlike them of course, them that have to live their lives via a book!

          Being born how we are and forfilling our own lives, our Freedoms scares the begebees out of em!

          Hypocrites!

        3. @Jock S Trap

          Some people of faith believe that orientation is a choice, not all

          Whilst, I would happily accept there is an element of choice in whether I actually have sex on each and every occasion I have it (unless I am raped!), this does not then extrapolate to mean that one chooses their orientation, and for me there are two reasons for this – 1) Its an inate desire, yearning want in terms of attraction that can’t be turned off – its how we are created and 2) if I was to say NO every time I felt the urge to have sex, then I would be very unhappy ….

        4. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 7:46pm

          ..cont…or indeed anywhere else i might want to have it away …”” lol

          1. @Paddyswurds

            I did almost add or anywhere else I choose, to my bedroom comment lol

            Chuckled when I paged down and found you had said something similar

    4. @ Wendy: Thats is such an overused phrase, which nevertheless is the biggest load of nonsense, since we aren’t sinning at all. Those who oppose our rights are guilty of the “sin” of hate though, so why don’t you go love them instead.

      @James!: Being perpetually angry really does nothing to advance your arguments, nor does jumping to conclusions

      1. Ok I’ll change just for you

        1. @James!

          Towards me I wouldn’t want you to change too much – I like the banter …

          1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:38pm

            Don’t upset him too much or he might share his c-nuts with ya!

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:39pm

            Actually that don’t sound good, wrong website me thinks.. Made meself all queasy.

          3. funny fcuker aren’t ya jock you’re lucky I like you

          4. @James and Jock S Trap

            You both have thought provoking (and usually intelligent) comments, which I sometimes agree with – have enjoyed chatting with you both the last few days

          5. Jock S. Trap 25 Mar 2011, 12:04pm

            I ain’t lucky James! I’m honoured!!

            ;)

        2. @Jock S Trap

          Queasy or easy … lol

          1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 3:03pm

            Queasy so don’t Squeeze me. Only ever easy for 1 man!! ;)

          2. @Jock S Trap

            Oh it wasnt a flirty comment lol

            Just Queasy never looks quite right to me – even though it is …

    5. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:31pm

      Homosexual act? Ooh Get ‘er. This coming from some perv with clearly sh!t for brains.

      1. @Jock S Trap

        When someone makes a comment like “Homosexual Act”, it always makes me wonder if you need an equity card or to have gone to RADA before you take part …

        Never had to before …

        1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 3:05pm

          Yeah what is this the bloody theatre?

          1. Well, I’m all in favour of the Stanislavski method acting school when it comes to gay sex… it’s not all that convincing if you’re just going through the motions.

          2. Jock S. Trap 25 Mar 2011, 12:05pm

            A bit of Italian’s always a winner!

          3. @Jock S Trap

            Depends on the Italian ….

    6. Nikki Hatch 24 Mar 2011, 3:34pm

      Sorry Wendy but to say that someone who is gay, lesbian, or Trans and lives honestly according to how God created them is a sin is absurd. There is NO way to “love the sinner but hate the sin” because what you call sin is people living and acting out in the way they were created. That sounds compassionate but is really a very cruel philosophy.

      1. Well said Nikki. Surely it should be regarded as a sin to be forced to live a lie or marry in the hope your natural tendencies are somehow going to change by divine intervention.

        1. Absolutely G.A.Y.

          Surely we should try and find a way of living as we were made

          Living a lie (although a choice) is unlikely to either make us happy nor is it being true to the way we were made

  12. Good news!

    Any chance all these lovely woolly liberal Catholics across the Western World could be persuaded to bring their leaders into alignment with their views?

    Now that would be good news!

    1. Yes Philip liberal catholics exist like moderate muslims and unicorns

      1. Actually liberal catholics do exist, they are probably in the majority in this country (Catholics vote labour). The problem is liberal catholics are either ignored by the media, or totally ignored by the hierarchy.

      2. Both moderate Muslims and liberal Catholics exist, James. The trouble is that the former are usually too scared (for good reason) to identify themselves, and the latter tend to regard their faith as ‘their own thing’, enjoying the music and liturgy and not motivated enough openly to challenge the heirarchy’s line.

        1. You act like they’re doing us a favour we should be treated as equal without question. its the bigoted religionist who want to treat me as sub human so they do me no favours when the do the right thing its expected no demanded

          1. @James!

            The thing about human rights is that all humans should be treated equaly regardless of background, orientation, faith etc

            Absolutely, anyone (individual or group) who treats you or anyone else as sub human should be challenged – assertively at times.

            However, we do need to exercise care that we don’t presume that someone is homophobic or bigoted in some other way purely because they are a member of some group. For example, when I was in the police I investigate a few members of a rugby club who were racist towards some Maoris who were visiting on a rugby tour. A few months later, another rugby team member was badly assaulted by a local who was originally from the South Pacific. The guy was was injured had not been involved in the original racist incident and as far as anyone can tell is not racist – wasnt even friends with the team members I arrested. So, in a similar way some people of faith will not be homophobic …

        2. Paddyswurds 24 Mar 2011, 3:16pm

          @Riondo Plus the fact that the RC church is not a democracy.

      3. @James!

        Am with Scott and Riondo about moderate Muslims and liberal Catholics …

        There is a sense of fear amongst some in both faiths about speaking out too much, but some are very brave and do speak out … I wish there were more …

        Incidentally, *joke* if you know where the unicorns are, I would like to see one … unfortunately, I find that as believeable as some other tales …

        1. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:41pm

          Lets be honest if their wasn’t liberals in religion we wouldn’t be having any trying to fight for Equal Marriage and Civil Partnerships.

          So as we do have them… They must exist.

          1. sorry there repies pop up all over the place

            You act like they’re doing us a favour we should be treated as equal without question. its the bigoted religionist who want to treat me as sub human so they do me no favours when the do the right thing its expected no demanded

          2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 3:09pm

            I agree James! but those certain some that do support our rights have to be encouraged against the likes of those in the Chuch of England who want to see Equal marriage completely taken off the menu.

            With the likes of the Reform Jews, Liberal Jews, Quakers etc we show that They in a democracy must be given the right to perform ceremonies they wish too wishout the discrimination of the CofE.

          3. Well I met a quaker who was a bit homophobic and he was happy to go into a partnership with a pentacostal 100% anti gay git

          4. @James!

            Was that a gay relationship between the Quaker and the pentecostal????

    2. Would be nice if the leadership of the Catholic church could be influenced by their membership into a more tolerant viewpoint …

      1. Would be nice if I had a 12″ cock

        1. I wouldn’t know if you do or don’t lol

          Not that its relevant to this thread lol

          and not that its relevant but, I’m told, there can be too big – I prefer style to substance though lol

          1. style over substance is a bit like inner beauty

          2. @James

            There is something about inner beauty …

            I do tend to fall for guys due to their personality – although am very much initially attracted by the external appearance

        2. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 3:10pm

          James!

          We’ve had this discussion before and still not feeling guilty!!

          :P

          1. i dont beleive you I want pics

          2. PIcs of what???? hmmm

    3. Jock S. Trap 24 Mar 2011, 2:39pm

      Unlikely!

    4. Christine Beckett 24 Mar 2011, 2:51pm

      The catholic church does not work that way, Philip.

      There is no facility in the catholic church’s doctrine or organisation for the followers to influence the vatican in any way at all.

      The command structure only allows flow one way, from the vatican down to the flock, and that’s it. :-(

      chrissie
      xxx

      1. There is a lot of truth in what you say there Christine, but there have been examples of Rome changing its view on events due to discontent in the wider church – however, it is usually portrayed as divine insight suddenly being given …

  13. George Broadhead 24 Mar 2011, 1:56pm

    I hope that all these LGBT friendly Catholics will bring their opinion to the attention of the US Catholic hierachy who may be following the Vatican’s line, and perhaps even to his homophobic holiness himself.

    l wonder what percentage of US non-believers (atheists, agnostics, Humanists etc.) are LGBT friendly and what the statistics are in other countries like the UK.

  14. For the record what I am trying to say is that I believe passionately in LGBT rights. That is mainly because human rights are of crucial importance.

    Human rights should be universal. For me, that means the apply to all regardless of sex, orientation, age, gender, disability, race or faith. Rights are not just entitlements – they also bring with them responsibilities. By claiming our rights – whether they be in terms of equal relationship status, access, freedom of speech etc – we have a responsibility not to stop others from enjoying their own rights. I do accept there are competing rights and it can be complex. If we fail to respect others rights then it does not advance our cause – whatever our cause.

    I am not saying that the entire LGBT communities are anti faith.

    Equally, I am not saying that members of the faith community are not homophobic.

    There is fault on both sides. We need to condemn the fault on both sides and celebrate the acceptance on both sides.

    1. Well said Stu :-)

    2. Why cannot you see that freedom of thought is not the same as freedom of expression? If you want to believe in Peter Pan … that’s fine with me. But if, through your ‘belief’ … and Britain’s ridulculous tradition of church and state emeshement …. you demand protection for your ‘belief’ and a right to discriminate against those who disagree with you, I will fight and fight and fight again to stop you. ‘Belief’ is a totally personal matter and has no place whatsoever demanding priority – or even equality with – sexual orientation.

      1. @Andy

        Why can you not see that I do not have a particular faith, but the fact that I believe it is a human right to have a faith and be able to exercise that right is no different to me being able bodied and believing in human rights of those with diabilities.

        I do not believe in Peter Pan or God

        I agree there should be no formal link between the state and the church – it seems you think I wold want it

        I do not demand protection for my belief whatsoever, I have no religious belief – I do strive to uphold the rights of others who do have religious beliefs

        Where have I discriminated Andy … give me evidence of that … I have stood consistently against all forms of persecution and prejudice … homophobia, racism, religious hatred – the works … So please, if you are going to challenge me, do it on a factual basis …

        You will fight and fight to stop me from what … fighting for the rights of everyone regardless of gender, race, disability, faith, orientation, age, etc …

        1. @ Andy

          Legally freedom of belief and freedom of expression are covered equally by the ECHR and the Human Rights Act and the joint convention on Human Rights of the United Nations

          All rights are universal and demand equality.

          It is arrogant of you to suggest that one right is more important than another

          I suspect it is more to do with your view that religion is wrong rather than a lack of parity of rights …

          You are correct religion is a choice, orientation is not. I want the LGBT communities to have every human right in every country in every community and for no religion or other reason to stand in the way.

          Equally I recognise that freedom of speech includes freedom to speak about beliefs.

          I dont get everything right, but I know that my contention that human rights are universal is moral.

          I also believe – but may be wrong – there is something subversive in your suggestion that all rights are not equal

  15. George Broadhead 24 Mar 2011, 2:14pm

    Stu wrote:

    “Human rights should be universal. For me, that means they apply to all regardless of sex, orientation, age, gender, disability, race or faith”.

    What about the rights of those with no faith? According to the British Social Attitudes Survey published in January this year, more than half of the UK population have no faith at all.

    1. @George

      The regardless of faith clearly answers that point

      As does the fact that human rights should be universal

  16. OK. So if catholics don’t approve of what their church hierarchy is doing in terms of bigotry and hateful behaviour – will they do anything about it? Or be passive and toe the party line anyway?

    If I join a club and that club starts to do things that really do not agree with then I either lobby for change, or I leave. What I would never do is sit quietly in the background, occasionally whispering that I don’t agree – and then have the nerve to be annoyed and offended that no one hears me.

    1. Well look in south america, catholic churches are challenging discrimination

      1. @Valksy

        I kind of agree with you

        However, Scott does have a fair point about challenges from the churches in Latin America regarding discrimination. Also, it is more difficult as the Catholic church regard the Pope as infallable and having divine insight from God – hwo do you challenge that, and there is no mechanism to allow it easily. The Latin Americans are making inroads but the Catholic church is a more difficult to challenge than the committee at a squash club

        1. Galadriel1010 24 Mar 2011, 6:09pm

          Church politics is impossible to wrangle, and usually controlled by an oligarchy. All we can do is wait for them to die and for the new generation to come through.

          Shouldn’t be long; they were all in their 70s at my church

          I stopped going on purpose rather than due to laziness when the CoE decided to oppose my right to get married and said they wouldn’t let me get married in the church I’ve attended since I was a child. I’ll come back when they’ve made up for it.

          1. You shouldnt have to wait …

            But then a lot of things shouldnt happen in life

            There are some things worth fighting for, and in my book marriage would be one of them …

            I wish you well and hope you find a way of getting what you want

  17. Dr Robin Guthrie 24 Mar 2011, 6:42pm

    I’m a 45 year old atheist gay Scotsman.

    My “Civil Partner” of the last ten years is 35 and severely Catholic due to his Scottish Schooling and upbringing by these people.

    He still suffers from this learned hate, and I as a feeling individual cope with it.

    As a job of work, I design and code new computer systems, and having to continually retort to this religious insanity , I must admit is very wearing.

    However, I love my partner. END OF.

    If he decides to pursue his religiosity it is his choice.

    1. Absolutely …

      Having some interesting personal background with faith and family etc, it is sometimes a difficult journey but love is bigger than the disputes over ideological issues or the hatred that can come from either side in the gay/religion divide. It is hard for partners, parents and others who are close to a gay Catholic/christian but the internal conflict in the individual can be damaging too …

  18. @rapture

    Absolutely, there is the choice to remove support from a political party, and absolutely there is the choice to leave a denomination. Some have.
    I didnt say I agreed with the changing from within – but I do recognise that it can be a valid argument – it can be viewed in a negative fashion such as you describe and largely I think thats how I see it, but it can also be viewed as being a supportive and influencing an organisation postiively.
    There are times you would invest in an organisation and wish to change it, most of the metaphors I would use aren’t really helpful for a religious organisation however …

    1. RC is a bureaucratic institution and any changes will take time. there was already one concession from pope on condom use by male escorts. and this caretaker pope will soon be replaced by someone less rigid

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