So an Extremist in Tower Hamlets and now a show of the Homophobia that seems endemic in the Muslim Community.
How can this be?
The Left/LGBT alliance in Tower Hamlets have told us that the mayor and the council leadership totally condemn homophobia.
I am sure this is all wrong, and the truth is that the EDL have kidnapped the mayor and installed a doppelgänger in his place, in order to incite divisions between the local communities.
Yeah, that’s exactly what fanatics like Socialist Worker and the organisers of Hackney Pride most likely think as they bury their heads deeper in the sand
They must think we lgbt are so stupid to believe their phoney sentiment trying to insist they are against all forms of discrimination in the borough. Sounds like their belief of “al tiqqua” is firmly in practice.
what is that supposed to mean?
you clearly have no understanding of the concept let alone its relevance.
well googled nonetheless!
the concept from the koran sounds very apt with this article. The policy of muslims deception to the kuffar or non believers especially in the case of lutfur rahman in this instance. Under pressure he eventually denounces the hate zone posters in east london for fear of further media coverage but this does not alter his covert isms by his association with the IFE. Mybe you should google this concept of acceptability to lie to get a better understanding
Al Taqiyya, is dissimulation employed by Muslim’s, lying to get the better of those one perceives as one’s enemy. Saying one thing publicly to non-Muslims and another privately to the Muslim brothers… al Taqiyya.
The concept actually refers to hiding ones faith when faced with mortal danger. Is incorrectly applying a theological principal out of context really going to resolve the issues in Tower Hamlets. A policy? so by misinterpreting a rarely used concept, you are implying that all Muslims are liars? How is this actually going to resolve the situation in Tower Hamlets?
you seem to be employing al taqiyya from this comment , because in a later post you suggest islam can be interpreted to individual needs which refutes your notion of misinterpretation,, this would imply heresy if anyone could adapt the koranic verses to suit their individual lifestyles rather than adopt the collective dogma that is fudament to organised religion.Please try to be consistant before you desperately try to play the victim.
@rapture: I find it ironic that you are now an throwing around a term that two days ago you couldn’t even spell! Now suddenly you’re an expert on Islam? Accusing all Muslims of lying and suggesting that all Asians are Muslim. You go on to impose your narrow definition of organised religion (which by the way, Islam is not!) to my comments to accuse me of lying. Instead of fooling yourself that you are somehow well informed and intelligent, accept that you are narrow minded ignorant racist.
@alig you are clearly the liar as there was no suggestion in my post to suggest all asians are muslim, you are trying to assert that for your own agenda , so you can start screaming racist because people find the fascist idealogy of islam repellant. Using your logic ,i call you a (possibly internalised)Homophobic bigot for your contradictory association with a homophobic sect . You are in a state of delusion with your bigoted, superstitious nonsense. As for my spelling , what can i say i am a product of a london state educaton where spelling and grammer was largely ignored. And how would you define islam if you disagree that it is an organised dogma?
@alig , you want to cloud the difference between race and religion to blend the two so that if someone has a criticism of islam you can call them a racist. A subliminal form of coercing any critique into silence . cry wolf all you like,or shout racist in your limited understanding of the word. Fortunately people are becoming aware of playing the race card where it is not appropriate.
Don’t these people have security?
Anyone causing upset in the public galleries should be forcibly ejected.
As for these people hanging around outside polling stations, that is ILLEGAL.
Anyone seeing others doing so or attempting to persuade your voting opinion should be reported to the police immediately.
Oh: Telegraph update:
damn, if I wasnt so sure the EDL would turn on us after, I would so join them.
I can so see your sentiments, but it would be a bad move.
Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any sane nationalist party that doesn’t attract the right-wing fringe racist lunatics. The closest I’ve found so far are UKIP, but they need to have more teeth.
And I hope that will happen. Interesting to see that UKIP came second in yesterday’s Barnsley Central by-election, see Ed West’s blog:
Put that in your pipe and smoke it Mayor Rahman et al!
ukip, what joke, not even decent protest vote, labour nuked everyone with 61% of vote
As was expected. Barnsley Central has been been won by Labour with almost entirely huge majorities since 1922. The point is that UKIP considerably improved its vote at the expense of others, including the Tories and Lib Dems.
seriously everyone knows when it comes to general elections nobody is going waste their vote on non entity like ukip or bnp
A Yes vote to AV may help parties like the BNP and UKIP.
Hopefully the more democratic voting system of av or pr will be passed into law after the referendum. I’m sick of mps thinking they have job for life.
Please UKIP are nuts as well. They would kill the NHS, cut all ties with Europe, remove the echr, kill state education. They would be the tories on crack in other words.
No disrespect, but you clearly know very little about UKIP’s policies, and what you do know you are wildly sensationalizing. But then again, because we’re gay we’re all supposed to be socialists aren’t we? Well, count me out on that one.
you just forgot to add very gay and women friendly, pls dont treat us like morons, some of us are watching tv news from time to time
@andy – we’re you replying to me? Sorry, can’t seem to reply directly to you and can’t work out whether you’re referring to my post or Scott’s?
it was @ will k
just waiting for all those apologists from last week to jump in!
I see you bigots are already on the warpath!
Whoever you are, go and take a running jump, and don’t you dare accuse me of bigotry after the cr@p I’ve put up with for years.
after readding your previous posts, you either suffering from long spells of periods or just plain xenophobia
yes. thats helpful isn’t it. sexism as well.
and who’s playing victim card now? pls just leave it you embarassing yourself
Perhaps you brought these calamities on yourself if you think you can go around abusing people. Perhaps you should seek some professional help
i don’t find rose embarrassing. i find two gay guys who are trying to excuse islamic homophobia embarrassing. actually worse than embarrassing – more mentally deficient. if there’s anyone who needs professional help, it’s a gay muslim who thinks protecting yourself from a group of people who wish to take away your freedom is bigotry.
Oh Lordy, another religious crackpot has joined this comment page I see!!
All that nonsense about islam being a peaceful cult is absolute crap. Where are the leading islamic figures, why aren’t they condemning it? They’re the first to play the victim card when we retaliate. If they don’t like livining in the UK, whether they’re born here or not, let them go live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Syria where they can practice their hatred and bigotry ad inifinitum. They’re nothing but scum.
What have you done to fight discrimination? I see that as yet nobody has commented on the article about Galliano…. are you that important/fragile that that you expect others to jump to your defence and clearly you are quick to play the victim card. which “leading Islamic figures” do you expect to jump to your defence? the ones chosen by the media or those who mind there own business, dont seek media attention and deal with issues that affect them?
And what have you done to combat homophobia and hate crime purported from the muslim community? I don’t expect a mayor with extremist association to defend values of acceptance. You are the one trying to use the connection of discussion on the topic with playing the “islamophobic” card to try and subliminally coerce people into silence about this injustice ,with playing the victim.
@rapture: if you actually read the reports…. the blog had been turned into an Anti-Muslim (with the odd dollop of racism thrown in) before I started commenting. Clearly demonstrated by your reference to “crime purported from the muslim community” – in case you hadn’t noticed, there are various Muslim communities, especially in London. If you actually bothered to read all my posts, the point is that stereotyping and hatemongering is not going to resolve this injustice or any other.
Am I supposed to only act within a community you have pigeon-holed me in? I participate in efforts to combat hatred in all forms and just not limited to my sexuality.
@ tattydog: agreed… stereotypes are ridiculous….
Funny how it’s all muslims, yet Galliano is an isolated incident……it’s as ridiculous to say all muslims are homophobes as it is to say all gays are anti-semitic.
Gay is not a belief system it is inate and hence gay people are from all races/cultures. islam advocates homophobia as does christianity so for those who practice it properly they would be homophobic also. your stupid comparison with galliano is weak.
“It’s ridiculous to say all muslims are homophobes as it is to say all gays are anti-semitic”
WHat a dumb comparison. COmparing being gay to being a Muslim is like comparing being left handed to being a communist. Islam is an IDEOLOGY! It is a set of beliefs! To compare it to homosexuality makes no sense. There is no reason why a gay person would be anti-Semitic. There is, however, reason to bbelieve that a Muslim would be homophobic as it is in their religion.
AliG – It is no surprise that no ‘leading islamic figures’ do not jump to the defence of LGBT People. The idea of them doing jumping to our defence is so ludicrously funny you could draw … a cartoon about it. (I love cartoons.) My opinion is, when they do, it’s to save face and nothing else. After all, the overwhelming evidence from that Vipers Nest of hatred , the East London Mosque, is that they have been whipping up hatred against gay people for years. As evidenced by the excellent Dispatches programme on Channel4, and the sterling work of ANdrew Gilligan at the Daily Telegraph.
@Adrian: firstly, cartoons are evil and the work of the devil (mainly cos I can’t draw lol)
I agree, the East London Mosque undoubtedly is part of the problem highlighted in the article and have been whipping up hatred, not just against gay people.
Well, so long as you realise that I’d protect your right to freedom of belief too. Of course, not all muslims are homophobes. But if we should expose it when it is the case, for the sake of liberal muslims as much as for LGBT people. We should also recognise the right to criticise faith, and oppose discrimination against believers.
This is distressing news. Surely homophobic harrassment is illegal. The police should have a presence at these meetings and arrest the perpetrators.
muslims are just more volcal about homophobia but no more homophobic then christians or jews,as a minority they can get away with more, but its is lgbt and tolerant section of their community that suffer most
@Andy – “muslims are more volcal” really… I guess you have missed the Christian inspired law to hang gays in Uganda or the extremist homophobes of the Evangelical Churches in the USA. To day there have been no “muslim” homophobic murders in London as far as I know all homophobic murderers I researched were no muslims, so I guess thos “hate” preachers you worry about are pretty rubbish at generating hate. Also homophobic incidents in the 3 London boroughs with most muslims have actually declined by nearly 10% year on year as defined by the Metropolitian Police but in areas with few muslims they have increased sometimes by as much as 50%. So what conclusion can we draw: panicing about muslim homophobia may actually be exagerated and actually be unwarranted. Take a chill pill and lie down in a darkened room.
woooaah. Im not a religious guy, but ive not met or heard of any homophobic reform or liberal jews.
so u partition a faith (judaism) pick up good bits and than u use it defend that faith as a whole, brrrrliant logic
“muslims are just more volcal about homophobia but no more homophobic then christians or jews”
If by “more vocal” you mean executing and hanging gay people then yes, however I have yet to find a judeo/christian nation that executes people for being gay.
where do they hang/execute them is it in london or manchester or perhaps in bradford?
@ Pepa google “hang the gays” and the word Uganda and you will see plenty of Christian inspired hate towards gays and calls to Hang Gays. You need to get out more often or perhaps watch the news.
Apparently the police need to attend these meetings. I wouldn’t put up with homophobia in my job, so why should Mr Golds? Being a public servant doesn’t somehow lessen his rights as a protected citizen, nor does it give licence to bigots to shout abuse from the gallery. If anything, a higher standard should prevail. A clear message needs to be sent. Anti-gay sentiment is completely unacceptable in modern Britain, and anyone thinking of cultivating their own niche by exploiting a particular minority group – one they clearly believe to be a soft target – needs to think again. Gay people pay tax and demand the same protections under the law as everyone else. Racist hecklers would (quite rightly) be out on their ear so fast their feet wouldn’t touch the floor. Bigots (religious and otherwise) should channel all that hate into hard work and buy themselves a one-way ticket to a less culturally tolerant land.
It is time this Government stood up for the LGBT community in This country, telling all those hater that being Gay/Lesbian is not a crime here. That we are entitled to go about our business without harrassment, hatred and discrimination. It should be part of the citizenship to the UK. It is important people obey this countries laws.
Seriously if they hate this country so much for its laws then don’t be here. It is also a right to move to a country more supportive of hateful views but they should stop dictating to us, Christians, Muslims whoever.
I hear there is to be the first ever East End of London Pride March on 2nd April, is Pinknews able to give details about this event i think it needs support, especially in veiw of the recent poster campaign thats been reported here on Pinknews
That would be an interesting development.
Maybe someone should approach Mr Rahman and Tower Hamlets regarding some funding for such an uplifting community project.
Just don’t hold your breath.
I can confirm that there is an East End Gay Pride on 2nd April
Please go to http://www.eastendgaypride.com for all the information.
We have deliberately not asked for funding to arrange this event so that we can say we did it ourselves, as a community.
You can also follow the event on Twitter @EastEndGayPride
Did you see that those morons from Socialist Worker, in an idiotic article slamming Johann Hari for exposing homophobia in the area, is claiming that those calling for an East End Pride are ‘EDL supporters’? http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=24103
Good news about the Pride event – I wish you well x
Sooner or later something tough will have to be done to rid ourselves of those with no respect for common law.
We’ve wandered into a situation where we are not multi cultural – instead various cultures go along at their own pace.
If these people are doing what they are said to be doing then they should be prosecuted.
A few years back whilst working in Birmingham a group of asian youths were used to driving around the gay quarter shouting abuse.
It wasn’t until the registration numbers of the cars were taken, and the police visited the owners, generally the parents, that the practice stopped.
It has to be done NOW.
“Sooner or later something tough will have to be done to rid ourselves of those with no respect for common law”
Sounds a bit like Hitler’s final solution…. taking a leaf out of Galiano’s book?
erm……..where did he mention murder? how does “something tough will have to be done to rid ourselves of those with no respect for common law” sound like the final solution? i think maybe you have been smoking too much ‘leaf’ – you’re a little paranoid.
or maybe it’s you who has the gas chambers on his mind – we know how muslims love to hate the jews.
A truely idiotic comment!
An excellent comment Paul
I agree with Chrissie,
The hecklers in the gallery are the one and very same responsible for the ‘Gay free zone’ stickers, yes you know who they are it’s the EDL, masquerading as muslims. The audacity the pure subterfuge and in some cases, I suspect, darkening their skin with boot polish to make out they are NOT EDL.
Rebecca Shaw – you should look into this a matter of urgency. These pesky EDL supporters will stretch to anything to create fault lines in the multicultural and gay utopia that is the East End.
CITATION NEEDED PLEASE.
You have absolutely no proof of this at all.
People have already stated they have seen young Asians posting these.
If you have demonstrable evidence it was the EDL, then report it to the police.
If on the other hand this is merely your leftie, biased opinion, intent on deflecting the blame, I suggest you either put up or shut up.
It sounded like he was taking the piss to me…Or he may have been serious, but I cannot imagine anyone who lives round here calling it a “gay utopia”. Just a thought.
Rebecca shaw is too busy making excuses for these people to be dealing with the real issues.
Count me in for Pride march in April if that is going to happen. And I mean it. Fight back with Pride. Palestinian scarf around my neck and huge ping wig.
Will be good to see you there!
This behaviour reveals not just homophobia but contempt for democracy. Scary.
Give it twenty years in the UK and there may well be sharia law, anyone that opposes discrimination and equality freedom, should be banned from public office.
Sharia law in 20 years – based on what eveidence?
The hysteria in the press around Muslims is revolting and mainly lies. Yes, these incidences of homophobic abuse and voter initimidation are wrong, but we have laws to stop them. Any interested Tower Hamlets resident can attend the council meetings and, once there, if they feel that a crime is being committed, can call the Police. Anyone feeling intimidated at a Polling Station can speak to the officials inside or call the Police and have the matter dealt with. If the Mayor decides to join in with the protests he is at risk of arrest too, his office does not protect him. Issue resolved.
To extrapolate from this isolated incident and say that the UK, a nation of 60+ million will become a state with Sharia law in 20 years given that there are somewhere in the region of 2 million Muslims here is ridiculous. Not every Muslim is homophobic or even supports the idea of Sharia law. Stop swallowing racist garbage and deal with facts.
Islam is a religion, and not a race, so stop trying to shout down legitimate concerns and criticism by attaching false labels to the people expressing them.
If you seriously think that Islam in not a homophobic religion, then the only person you are fooling is yourself.
So the reference to ASian youth by your cohorts is just coincidence? Anti-islamism is intertwined with racism with the assumption that all Asian people are Muslim, regardless of whether they are Sikh, Hindu, Athiest…..
Are you an expert on Islam? Have you compared what the actual texts say compared to Judaism and Christianity? You might find its not that different….
If you think responding to hatred with more hatred is the answer…. you are sadly mistaken….
Those people are not my “cohorts”.
I am speaking for myself, and I don’t give a damn what continent the followers of this religion are from, or what colour they are.
When you shout down everyone with your cries of racism, you are trying to silence ALL criticism, even that based on the democratic principle of valid philosophical criticism.
The way to deal with such backward attitudes is to openly challenge the homophobic views of that religion, which is what I, and a lot of others, are doing.
I don’t hate them. I feel pity for them.
Who cares, they’re all a load of nonsense. Anyone that starts a sentence with “God says…” is a bloody idiot.
We need to be wary of this (the first part of the sentence) kind of thinking. This is Melanie Phillips turf, all those comments about Sharia law/Islam/Polish people/gays/blacks/communists taking over or whatever. It’s reactionary hysteria which doesn’t win us any supporters out there. We have a genuine problem here, in that there are an awful lot of religious lunatics, (muslim, christian, jew whatever they are) who mean to undermine us and our campaign for legal equality and social acceptability. We should be focusing on that, not straying into the realms of conspiracy theory; Ms Phillips and her “gay agenda” nonsense should be a warning to us not to let fear get the better of us.
I agree with the second bit though obviously.
They are NOT isolated incidents, though. Reporting of these incidents is isolated. But people put up with it all the time. I had to walk out of a job 3 years ago because an asian supervisor called me a ‘white trash sexual deviant’ – this AFTER he tried to grope me on the stairs. No action was taken because they were afraid to sack an Asian. I was TOLD this to my face by those who were supposed to protect ME from people like that.
Two weeks ago, my partner was almost run over on a zebra crossing by an Asian taxi driver. A police officer witnessed the incident and intervened. Taxi driver tried to claim it was racial harassment. This time the bluff didn’t work. He was arrested.
This is the same nasty attitude that has reared its ugly head in the Tower Hamlets council.
taxi driver was possibly implementing his religious right to al taqiyya in this instance. ANyhow kenlivingstone must be delighted ,that he supported this mayor into office.
oh very likely. These people don”t care about us being lesbians, by the way. Being white women is enough. And AliG, Andy, or anyone else accusing me of Xenophobia can go take the same running jump already suggested. These things happen. I’m not lying. It has nothing to do with xenophobia, unless it is Asian xenophobia against white people. And its time we stopped being scared to say so because somebody like Andy jumpsd up and shouts ‘racism’. The hell it is.
have u been drinking?
Andy, have U been smoking that opium your people grow and export? :p
@ Friday Jones…..Is growing and exporting Opium wores than manufacturing and exporting arms and cluster bombs as is common Britain??….just a thought.
Whilst I think your comment is wrong It is important to stress that this is want many Muslims in Tower Hamlets are pushing for in the area. It is already in use for many things ie pregnant women being told it is there fault their husbands beat them because they are bad muslims…
It needs to be stamped out now. Sharia Law has no place in this country.
What a disgrace in a free society-bigotry is not acceptable in any form in a civilized society. Does he think he lives in Uganda? Islam and Christianity both use their beliefs to hurt or damage others. Disgraceful! Disgusting! Unacceptable!
Agreed… neither belief/faith nor ignorance/stereotypes are excuses for any kind of bigotry.
islam is the most bigoted, narrow minded belief system that has any power in the world.
…Wrong…Religion in whatever form it raises it’s ugly head, is the problem. Period. Islam is no worse or better than any of the Evil Abrahamic cults.
Disagree with that Paddyswurds. This country has many Christians yet we have a democracy. If this was a Muslim country we would not.
Sadly Muslims are more intolerant which makes life hell for those Muslim in the LGBT community.
Having said that both religions would happily take us back to the Dark Ages.
Lets be honest the prefer religious chooses are not compatable with Britain.
Spanner – I was being ironic and sarcastic. There are so many denialists (new word!) and apologists for the Islamofacists on here I was taking the P!
Chrissie – you are right about the religion bit…but that’s only a part of it. Islam an ideology and complete ‘lifestyle’, social, religious, economic and political. Therefore you are right, there is nothing ‘racist’ about criticizing it. Apologists just bound the word ‘racist’ around to try and stifle all debate and criticism of Islam. If this ‘organization’ was founded today on the same principles it would be Banned!!
what ‘organization’ are you referring to?
Islam is no more and no less an ideology and complete lifestyle that Judaism…. yet we do not hear such sweeping generalisations about the latter.
There is a dangerous/violent/homophobic/everythingophobic interpretation of Islam that is taking hold which needs to be not only criticised but eradicated. This is not going to be achieved by pigeon-holing over a billion people….. if you insist on stereotyping…. don’t be surprised if you are labelled bigot/racist!
so stating a FACT about islam is bigoted? tell that to the LGBT in saudi, iran, yemen, UAE, egypt, etc. who are killed, tortured, imprisoned in the name of islam.
no one is pigeon holing, just presenting the facts. islamic society is homophobic. FACT. sorry about that, but that’s the way it is.
you go and bury your head in the sand and pretend that the islamic world do not treat LGBT like dogs. but leave others to tell the truth.
Take a look at the map link – take note how the islamic countries are the ones where LGBT are legally viewed as criminals.
if you insist on ignoring the facts about islam………..don’t be surprised if you are labelled stupid/naive.
First of all, we don’t live in an Islamic society and the issue being discussed is relates to this country. So you should stick to pertinent facts.
secondly, only two of the countries you mentioned purport to have an Islamic government, both of which are guilty of gross human rights abuses. You appear to have listed all Muslim countries you have ever heard of and they all happen to be in the Middle East…. the largest Muslim country is Indonesia and guess what, homosexuality isn’t criminalised.
Get your FACTS right before you start labelling people stupid!
no, thankfully we don’t live in an islamic society in the UK. because if we did, like the vast majority of other islamic societies, LGBT would be criminilised with death or imprisonment or torture.
and my facts are right – it’s your inability to accept that your religion is homophobic that is stupid.
you’ll be telling us next that muslim women aren’t treated as second class citizens next. LOL.
btw, your prophet was a paedo. Aisha. FACT.
Fact – the traditional Muslim lifestyle of oppression is not compatable with British Culture. That is why so many Muslims escape those oppressive countries. However look at Islam4UK to see that these peoples core beliefs.
Lets not hide from the fact that Islam is a fundamental belief system and like Christianity the best place for such intolerants is in the future when hopefully the majority of mankind sees sense and teaches its evils via the history books.
Andrew Gilligan states it better than I:
“Islamism, in the words of one of the IFE cadres secretly filmed during our Dispatches programme, holds that Islam is far more than a religion, but also a prescription for how the whole of society must be. Attacks on gay people and others whose behaviour transgresses the Islamists’ idea of social norms are, therefore, a logical consequence of this. It is neither “racist” nor “Islamophobic” to oppose it.”
@spanner: no, it is not racist or islamophobic to challenge/oppose organisations (or individuals) like the IFE and any organisation, regardless of their ideology, that encourage hatred of any kind and if there is evidence to suggest violence is being encourage/condoned, the police should take action!
Where’s the PinkNews story on this? http://www.facebook.com/l/ad24c/www.channel4.com/news/international-preacher-odulele-admits-sex-offences
AliG, I actually do a lot to fight discrimination, probably more than you do. I’ve been around a lot longer than you and have been a gay activist since the 60s. I also donate to decent people like Peter Tatchell and several overseas gay organisations as as actively contact my MP.
If your cult is so peaceful and tolerant, why do those middle easter islamicstates call for the death penalty of gay people? Not one major islamic leader in that part of the world has condemned it which leads one to deduce that by their silence they give consent. As much as I hate the majority of the christian cults, none of them call for our execution, not even orthodox judaism does that.
Andy, when muslim countries support the death penalty for gay people, then that proves they’re far more homophobic.
“……Andy, when muslim countries support the death penalty for gay people, then that proves they’re far more homophobic……”
its irrevelant what other countries think or do, i was refering to these shores as article i commented on was about london borough. honestly
Robert, your opening remarks clearly demonstrate that:
A) you are not only ignorant arrogant but also patronising.
B) As a gay activist, so you have only fought for gay rights? (note, I don’t jump to baseless assumptions as you do, I enquire!). If that is the case, what gives you the right to demand others fight for our cause?
My cult? so I am suddenly the leader of a cult… Have you ever bothered to look beyond the Middle East to Muslim cultures (note:plural!) in the Far East or India? I am not going to enter into a tit for tat comparison of other belief systems and end up tarring diverse faith communities with the same brush as you have done. Is that really going to solve the serious issue highlighted by the article?????
Peter Tatchell is an admirable man, if you support his work, perhaps you should actually listen to his message: human rights for all.
The only bigot on this page is calling himself AliG!
so stating a FACT about islam is bigoted? tell that to the LGBT in saudi, iran, yemen, UAE, egypt, etc. who are killed, tortured, imprisoned in the name of islam.
no one is pigeon holing, just presenting the facts. islamic society is homophobic. FACT. sorry about that, but that’s the way it is.
We don’t need to go to saudi, iran, yemen, UAE, egypt, etc. Tower Hamlets is far enough.
AliG could make his point more clearly by refering to some inspiring muslims like Shirin Ebadi and Irshad Manji, whose book ‘the trouble with Islam today’ is inspiring. She’s a muslim lesbian and constantly faces death threats as you can imagine. The Quilliam Foundation and the British Democratic Muslim Society also do good work.
However, I think the person who gets to the heart of the matter is ex-muslim and former Dutch politician, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who had to go into hiding and eventually leave the Netherlands. She featured in ‘Submission’, a film exposing abuse of muslim women, and whose director, Theo van Gogh was murdered 6 years ago, by a fanatic (Mohammed Bouyeri, who was radicalised partly by his mosque, El Tawheed, A’dam) because the film ‘offended his faith’. In her book ‘Nomad’ Ali cites the patriarchal system, the culture of honour and shame, and the unwillingness of host nations to promote ‘western’ values among ethnic minorities.
Just disgraceful, the police should attend meetings and eject anyone shouting abuse.
Homophobia comes from every walk of life. I’m no fan of religion, I think it’s all nonsense, but perhaps a wider view than the old ‘Islamic extremist’ nonsense. Surely they have a ridiculously unproportional hate campaign against them in all media at the moment.
Lets deal with homophobia everywhere as a common problem and not single out other minorities for further victimisation themselves. That’s not what we’re about. We want a world free from prejudice. How will we get that if we add to it in this way?
Devil…..you speak sense!
Homophobia is confronted at all levels – except when it comes from Muslims. That’s the bloody problem. If it was a Christian or other group that was sticking flyers around town declaring it a ‘gay free zone’, media outlets like The Guardian and et cetera would go CRAZY!!! There would be outrage all across the liberal media establishment. But, because it was a Muslim group, it was left to Pink News and the Daily Telegraph to report it.
Agree with that comment SamB.
Interesting coverage by the Telegraph, of these increasingly homophobic council meetings in Tower Hamlets.
I wonder will traitor ken livingstone offer any response to this. he does after all support this mayor. i guess demographics in london now mean the muslim vote is far heathier a propect for livingstone getting in for another term next year for london mayor.
“healthier a propect”
“prospect” sorry falling asleep here.
I’m an atheist but Islam WAS a peaceful religion. Damn, they gave us education for chrissakes and treated jewsih slaves-see persopolis city-better then anyone.
Then it changed.
I don’t know a lot but I would be fascinated to know if it is the same kind of people who suddenly turned?
The world is ever so racially mixed.
FYI, Arabs are so different in every part of the middle east and north Africa.
I will say this AliG, though I think you’re being picked on for no reason, I am still waiting for a Muslim person to talk about the beauty that used to be Islam. It was never about hate but it seems the one in the UK-pakistanis?-are hell bent on war at all counts….
you’re a daydreamer. AliG has no interest in talking about peace.
like you are very keen yourself lol
Peace from racist and/or homophobic islamics would be nice.
I just wonder why you’re so keen to defend the indefensible, Andy!
simple reason, u lack in coherence
I lack coherence? So the coherent bigots shouting filth in a council office are to be admired, but you make it your point to attack me? You are nothing but a bully yourself, and one with blinkers on to what these homophobes from the muslim community are doing, to say nothing of the wider issue of racism among that ‘community’.
first of all pls stop shouting, u might then hear what others are saying.
u r expressing same bigotery as people you r accusing of perhaps even without realizing , the defference is you do it under false pretence that u somehow entilted to it because you suppose to be a victim. calling someone bully just because they dont agree with you is just silly, and says more about you then the other person
“treated jewsh slaves-see persopolis city-better than anyone” that made slavery ok then? thats what the plantation owners would proclaim in america post civil war.
“i think you’re being picked on for no reason” its open discussion hardly bullying no matter how much you would like to purport the old victim/islamophobe card role routine as a debating tool , its beome innefectual and lost merit..
“it was never about hate” try and educate yourself.
Although i do agree with your admission of yourself “i don’t know alot”.
‘Islam’ did not in fact ‘give us education’. In the muslim world, there were some great mathematicians and scientists. Islam of the early middle ages was at its most benign, (while Christianity was at its most extreme, burning libraries and shutting down greek academes). As a result, thought and science happened in the muslim world – especially Baghdad, where the real inspiration for their advances, i.e. classical greek writings, were preserved and translated. The idea of ’0′ is of Indian origin by the way. Thought ground to a halt when the fanatics took over, from about 1300. Modern middle eastern ‘success’ comes by accident of living on top of oil.
Islam can be peaceful or not, as with any belief system, it is down to people to interpret and act upon in light of their situation/ prejudices/agenda. with regards to waiting for a Muslim to talk “about the beauty that used to be Islam”, I suggest you google some of the people and organisations AdrianT listed in earlier posts.
“It was never about hate but it seems the one in the UK-pakistanis?” – are you aware that the mayor in question is actually of Bangladeshi extraction? or are all Asians/Muslims the same? do you have any facts to base your racist statement on? Most UK-Pakistanis or UK-Turks I know either take their religion in small doses or associate with Sufi traditions which are more to do with sitting around chanting/singing than hatemongering.
Sorry but I don’t see anyone on this thread calling for the death of muslims. Far from it.
Considering what we do have to put up with you so called ‘victim’ comment is pathetic since I think the LGBT community is on rule Very tolerant. Having said that it seems to be too easy to attack anyone speaking against religion in the same way religion attacks the LGBT community.
Shallow, Very shallow.
OMG! These comments are so racist I can’t believe it!
You obviously do not understand the definition of race, islam is a religious lifestyle choice which transcends racial profiling. you are not born muslim unlike race. Your ignorance on the issue of racism is actually doing injustice to those who have experienced this form of prejudice. your cavalier approach to calling someone racist where it is clearly inappropriate, dilutes the stigma of being labelled as such thus making the accusation of racism becoming less serious as its bandied about unnessarily by idiots like you , who can’t determine the difference between race and an idealogy.
couldnt agree more, but why limit your accusations of ignorance just to your oponent on here, surely they shoud go far beyond this forum and end up on every great british high street. it is that preception (race/religion) and not eloquent understanding of the differance that is prevelant in british society, so in that context they can be seen as racist, and can warrant legimate acusations of racism purely on the bases they tap into that sentiment
Tattydog you used the phrase ovendodgers on the galliano post which is more disgusting than any comments here. Walk down edgware road hand in hand with your boyfriend and see what happens. A friend moved from there because of the homophobia. 99% of Muslims find homosexuality immoral they don’t like us and never will it’s an intrinsic part of their culture, which is ok as long as they don’t bring that rubbish over here. There are plenty. Of Islamic countries where they can live in according to their faith but with all the different sects they can’t seem to get on with each other. So what chance do we have?
James….I referred to Mel Gibson using the word which is as disgusting as what Galliano said….but very few are condemning Galliano…wonder why?
Get over your obsession with galliano , he was wrong , end of, and stop trying to deflect from the discussion bout tower hamlets mayor by changing the topic.
islam isn’t a race, it’s religion. DUHHHHHHHH.
Why do people just through this ‘racist’ arguement in a debate when clearly it has nothing to do with being racist but everything to do with immature minds unable to get their own point across.
Also as said since when has a chosen religion been a race?
Can the real Melanie Phillips reveal herself please?
Islam isn’t a ‘race’, fool.
Someone who is anti-Islam/Muslim is no more racist than someone who is anti-capitalism/capitalists.
it is according to rose on here and as is it seen as such by wider public in this country so yes they r racist, just simply on the bases that they tap into that sentiment
You don’t get it, do you? The racism is coming from the Islamic community. directed at white people, regardless of their religious affiliations, and particularly white women. Open your eyes to reality and stop accusing me. I am simply talking about the plain, clear fact that everyone knoiws but is made afraid to talk about by people like you.
Not just White people Rose. A black guy was murdered in Birmingham during a riot. Frequently I walk into shop and the owners of Asian descent probally Muslim start speaking in their own language and I pick up the body language and cadence of their speech and know I’m being slagged of. I know theyre not Hindu as women are allowed to work in the shops
I hadn’t heard about that, James. But I know what you mean about certain shops. I’ve seen the same sort of thing. Andy thinks I’m the rascist one. He needs to get out more and look at what is really happening here.
so it is just one way street pls, proves my point about ur lack of coherance
Asian racists kill a Black man
@james we spent hours on this forum to distinguish race from religion and then we get you, fantastic
Shut your hole
in absence of argument we get another james clasic, even more fantastic
Your just making a laughing stock of yourself.
“Can the real Melanie Phillips reveal herself please?”
Clearly that would be you tattydog.
Ok im going to thrown my 2 pennies worth in.
1) Is the Scripture of the Koran homophobc yes, as is the old testament, the torah and parts of the new testament.
2) Is homophobia a big problem amongst the muslim community. Yes, it is used by wackjobs to help radicalise young people in the muslim community, they are young, and largely not used to LGBT people and thus are easy pickings for the wack jobs. In the same way as I imagine the national front used to operate in the 1980′s. Its easy to go, look your poor youve got no job prospects, do you know why, its because the west lets gays and women exist. If you think this does not happen you are kidding yourself, its textbook wackjob philosophy.
3) is it fair to criticise imaams in this country for not attacking Saudi arabia/Iran/Pakistan etc for gay rights, your damn right it is.
4) But it is not fair to say every single muslim is responsible for the inaction of islamic clerics.
2) Agreed. Homophobia is an increasing problem and is being used as to radicalise young people. In most settled muslim communities, homophobia is only an issue if you are from that community and are gay, because then the issue cannot be avoided… generally, its ignored…. not ideal and needs to be challenged from within but a far cry from the image created by some that all Muslims are out to attack/kill gay people.
3) partly agree…. I would replace gay rights for human rights
5) while it is true that islam is a very large and very diverse religion, with huge differences between say indonesia and Saudi Arabia, no muslim country comes near the west in terms of gay rights or human rights, thus I feel no shame in telling such countries they are inferior.
6) However, such countries are also inferior to muslims living in this country who support equal rights for all, they do exist and need to be encouraged.
In my eyes i am very wary towards muslims, not because im worried about a bomb or anything, I just am generally nervous around religious people(unless they are a quaker/unitarian or liberal jew then im not so worried). But I do think it is fair for me as a gay man to say islam makes me worried, in the same way christianity does, as the threats to our rights will always come from such groups.
Many countries, Muslim and not are well behind with respect to human rights. Lets not forget though that homosexuality was illegal in this country not so long ago and we still have a way to go for complete equality, as we do with gender equality. That doesn’t mean we should encourage hatred and discrimination towards others…. gay rights cannot be isolated from wider human rights and freedoms.
Its quite scary how much I agree with you…. religious people generally make me nervous too.
“many countries, Muslim and not are well behind with respect to human rights”
No, Muslim countries, by and large, have the worst human rights. You want to know how gay people, religious minorities and et cetera are treated in a country? Check the percentage of Muslims in that country. The higher the percentage of Muslims, the more likely minorities are to be oppressed and the more brutall their oppression is likely to be.
The majority of the counries in the world where homosexuality is illegal are Muslim-majority countries.
You only have to see whats happening in Lybia to see that. A brutal dictatorship that’ll stop at nothng to oppress its people.
let us not forget that homosexuality is no longer illegal in the UK. I live now – not in the past. let us also not forget that homosexuality is still illegal in the vast majority of countries where islam is the dominant belief system.
no one is encouraging hatred – you focus on that if you want.
we are trying to encourage muslims to stop being homophobic – that’s all.
To be honest god, Islam isn’t the problem in Uganda or other sub Saharan countries, good old christianity is the wackjob religion of choice there.
The kind of things going on in Tower Hamlets from the public gallery have happened in other parts of the UK but from the elected christian representatives. Some of our MLA’s describe us gays people as abominations and sickening and compare us to pedophiles and animal worriers.
I agree with the earlier sentiment about being wary around all religious folk, the more extreme they are the more wary I am.
I am anti-Islam and proud of it! I will never hide this.
I am anti-Islam because I am a LIBERAL! I love LIBERALISM!
I support freedom of expression, gender equality, equal rights for gay people, the separation of religion and politics and I oppose the death penalty and other forms of barbaric punishment. On all these issues and more my views, to varying degrees, conflict with the vast majority of Muslims. Islam is a threat to our way of life and it must be confronted just like we confront the BNP and et cetera.
However you have got to admit, on those issues you are also at odds with the vast majority of daily mail and telegraph readers.
Probably, probably so.
But, no one calls me a ‘Daily Telegraph readerophobe’ or a ‘racist’ if I mock or criticise the views expressed in the editorial stances of the Daily Telegraph or the Daily Mail. This is not the case, however, with Muslims.
no, but they do say you have gone mad of the politically correct. I just think as a group the telegraph and the mail pose a bigger threat to us, but as individuals far right islan poses a bigger threat
Look, the difference is that if someone publishes a homophobic article in the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph and if I mock/criticise this article, I would expect them (the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph) to respond by saying that I am ‘politically correct gone mad’, that I am a ‘leftist’ or whatever. If I crticise , mock or condemn Muslim homophobia, however, I am not only criticised by Muslims who might call me a ‘sodomite’ or whatever dumb words those people use – AND – I will be criticised by a lot of people on the left (who would have supported me if I was attacking Daily Mail/Telegraph/Christian homophobia) for being an ‘Islamophobe’ or a ‘racist. This is the problem.
@SamB: a bigoted liberal… an oxymoron personified!
What makes you sure that these are the views of the vast majority of Muslims? In this country let alone any other? In case you hadn’t noticed, most Muslim countries have secular governments and you obviously missed the mobilisation of thousands in Egypt and Tunisia calling for a secular democracy… not a theocracy.
Bigotry of any ilk or ideology is a threat to freedom and human rights (I am not sure what you have deemed to be “our way of life”…. the introduction of civil partnerships was a change to “our way of life”… society needs to develop!)
“What makes you sure that these are the views of the vast majority of Muslims? In this country let alone any other?”
COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH DONE BY GALLUP AND THE COEXIST FOUNDATION IN 2009 FOUND THAT 100% – THAT’S A HUNDRED PERCENT – OF BRITISH MUSLIMS REGARD HOMOSEXUALITY TO IMMORAL!
GO ON – DISPUTE THAT IF YOU CAN.
“In case you hadn’t noticed, most Muslim countries have secular governments”
YET, HOMOSEXUALITY IS ILLEGAL IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM.
so you think for a liberal to be bigtoed against a fanatically conservative belief system is an oxymoron? you think liberal’s just accept everything – including fascism? in case you hadn’t noticed most muslim countries are institutionaly homophobic. most muslims countries either execute, torture, imprison and take away LGBT freedom.
you really need to re read your koran and hadith – satanic verses – but let’s not forget, the last writer who wrote that got a fatwah placed against him for saying something against the prophet by the ‘peaceful’ and tollerant muslim society. AliG – you’re as big a joke as baron cohen’s character.
I didn’t realise the law in this country had extended to thought control: since when was regarding anything as immoral – its actions that are the real issue!
@god: so now you are an expert on the Koran and Hadith because you’ve been to a mosque? I refer you to my earlier point that has been reiterated by others, Islamic text is no more and no less homophobic than Judaic or Christian!
As far as being a joke, clearly you are too stupid to realise that I have been writing against all forms of hatred, not justifying any!
FYI – I’m an expert on all religions – if you want me to start quoting the homophobic passages that are used throughout the islamic world to justify the way they treat LGBT then I will.
The pope may use the bible to spew hate – but it’s not illegal to be gay in italy or the majority of the christian world. some orthodox rabbi may use the torah to spew hate – but it’s not illegal to be gay in Israel, or the majority of the jewish world.
your holy men spew their koran/hadith hate – but it IS illegal to be gay in the majority of the muslim world.
it’s not LGBT opinion you need to change – it’s your fellow muslims opinions you need to change.
when muslims stop hating LGBT, LGBT will stop being critical of islam.
Melanie dear…stop trolling this page, thx.
Hey tatty dog and Andy….. Quick, the nurses are coming….you both know you’re not meant to be in the computer room unattended.
fantastic contribution to topic, cant wait for more, pls dont keep us waiting
i thought it was funny and summed up your lack of knowledge on how the islamic world treats LGBT. and your lack of understanding of the difference between race and religion.
and you think tattydog accusing people of being melanie philips is a great contribution?
FYI, islam texts are homophobic, the islamic world is homophobic – i wish they weren’t, but sorry they just are, that’s the way it is.
LGBT are killed, imprisoned, tortured and have their freedom taken away by muslims throughout the world in the name of their god.
LGBT are not institutionally islamaphobic – LGBT do not kill, imprison, torture or take away muslim freedom in the name of being LGBT. LGBT islamaphobia is about protecting themselves from a majority in the world who wish to destroy them.
you carry on pretending islam doesn’t mind that you are gay. you’ve obviously never lived in a predominantly muslim area in the UK. you’ve never lived in the middle east. you’ve obviously never been into a mosque. i have.
You’ve been to a mosque so that makes you an expert?
LGBT Islamophobia is intertwined with racism when Sikhs going out on the gay scene are called Osama and Muslims those marching at pride are called terrorists…. is that acceptable?
u must be on high horse rodeo style, theres no point in replying to your ramblings, since u thick enough not to notice that im here not to defend muslims but to expose bigotery on these forums, u r just prime example that i have achived my goal,rest my case
i have substantial understanding of ralations between race and religion, my reply to rapture comment:
“……couldnt agree more, but why limit your accusations of ignorance just to your oponent on here, surely they shoud go far beyond this forum and end up on every great british high street. it is that preception (race/religion) and not eloquent understanding of the differance that is prevelant in british society, so in that context they can be seen as racist, and can warrant legimate acusations of racism purely on the bases they tap into that sentiment”
wforgot to add, have to say u dont possess demanding sense of humor
There’s no such thing as ‘LGBT Islamophobia’ because there is no such thing as ‘Islamophobia’. It’s a nonsensical word created to silence critics of Islam.
Are people who are anti-Zionist called ‘Zioniomophobes’? No. Are people who are against Catholicisim called ‘Catholicophobes’? No. Are people who are anti-capitalism called ‘Capitalismophiobes’? No.
@SamB: In case you hadn’t noticed, I was responding to a comment using the term…. Like you, I use the term Anti-Islam or Anti-Islamic.
Are you incapable of directing the criticism at the original poster?
are you incapable of accepting islam is homophobic?
AliG – no it doesn’t make me an expert – but I have experience of the racism, bigotry, homophobia and hate filled puke that flows from the mouths of the preachers in those places and those communities. i know what goes on in there – you can’t fool me.
perhaps you should stop trying to reflect islamic bigotry back onto the LGBT community and face the FACT that your religion is homophobic – I know it’s hard to accept because you’ve brainwashed from being a child that mohammed loves you – but he doesn’t. islam is homophobic. FACT.
Mulsims kill, imprison, tortured and take away LGBT freedom throughout the world in the name of their god.
LGBT do not kill, imprison, torture or take away muslim freedom in the name of being LGBT.
@god: try reading my comments instead of assuming what I am saying, secondly, still waiting for you to answer my question as to whether it is acceptable for LGBT people to abuse other LGBT people? (be that in respect to race, religion, transgender….. )
or are the LGBT community infallible?
of course it’s not acceptable for anyone to abuse anyone because of their sexuality, race or gender – the things we are born with cannot be changed…..no one is saying the LGBT is infallible.
I have a question for you. Do you think it is acceptable that islam is homophobic?
There’s no such thing as ‘LGBT Islamophobia’ because there is no such thing as ‘Islamophobia’
Well all I can say is Islam frightens the bejezus out of me.
Look at virtually every conflict on the planet in the last 40 years, and they are there.
This isn’t simply an LGBT matter, but an attack on every free-thinking, democratic person in the Western world. This isn’t even a matter of race or religion, but a total ethos bent on world domination. It really is as simple, and as scary, as that.
Ignore it at your peril.
Homphobia and anti-Semitism are with us to stay. It will always be a respectable sentiment. We need to get used to that fact and guard ourselves against it. Probably has something to do with Jews killing Christ and the Torah/Bible/Koran’s views on Sexuality.
“I didn’t realise the law in this country had extended to thought control: since when was regarding anything as immoral – its actions that are the real issue!”
SERIOUSLY, YOU’RE SUCH AN IDIOT!
IF, AS THAT RESEARCH I REFERRED TO SHOWED, 100% – A HUNDRED PER CENT – OF MUSLIMS IN THIS COUNTRY REGARD HOMOSEXUALITY TO BE IMMORAL, DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THAT THIS WON’T DEMONSTRATE ITSELF IN ACTIONS?
WHY ELSE IS HOMOSEXUALITY ILLEGAL IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIM-MAJORITY COUNTRIES?
@SamB so no not only are you a bigoted liberal, you are clearly too STUPID to accept a different opinion without resorting to insults.
Do you know anything about social research? How was the sample selected? Most Muslims regard drinking alcohol as as immoral, do you see gangs of bearded Muslims standing outside every pub attacking people? NO!
So you’re conjecture is ridiculous.
I see muslims killing, torturing, imprisoning and taking away LGBT throughout the world.
FACE IT Ali, your religion is homophobic.
FACE IT DOG! you are too stupid to actually read/understand my posts… I will leave you to your incoherent ramblings (one minute you’re an expert the next you’re not).
“Face it dog”?????
Whats wrong, can’t find a plane to fly into a building, so you refer to US as dogs?
@AIIG. I’ve just read 24 of your stimulating posts…
How would you go about tempering the reported behavioural excesses of “‘Lutfur’s crew’ or ‘Lutfur’s army’”?
u r clearly suffering from little dog syndrome, bitting an ankle and running away
what’s little dog syndrome? who has been biting ankles? are you on drugs?
So Muslims didn’t flt those planes into buildings? No? Oh, okay. I must have been mistaken.
its about being sensitive to victims of 9/11 something u would know nothing about
Comparing muslim attitudes to drink an homosexuality is a comparative fallacy, and carries no weight what so ever. If this is all you have, then you have nothing.
Show me one case where someone was hanged for drinking in a muslim country, THEN you have a comparison.
We can show you multiple examples of gay people being hanged for their sexuality in muslim countries. The onus is on YOU to provide proof to the contrary.
….or burned, or buried alive; or stoned to death.
Can I just ask someone how islamophobia does not exist where as homophobia does?
For example. I saw a woman having her headscard torn off in the street by two chav girls then called “muslim scum” and told to “f*** of back to her own country. Two weeks ago I overheard a recruitment consultant in a bar saying about how he flat out doesnt even bother sending people out with the name muhammed because they just wont get interviews in his area.
To discriminate on the grounds of who someone is – thats still discrimination. Not something made to “silence critics of islam”.
P.S this is coming from someone who was told I would have “hot nails” buried into my eyes on the day of judgement by a muslim cabbie. Also was told by a nigerian christian cabbie to “repent” or face “doom for all eternity”. Did this anger me? Yes it did. Was I dumb enough to think all muslims/christians think this way based on my bad experience? No.
The point i’m trying to make is that humans discriminate. Saying one form of discrimination or hate is ok whilst another is not is completely retarded and hypocritical. You really have to be born with a very rare human quality – that is empathy. The ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes. If everyone was a bit more empathetic and not out to hate/make sweeping generalisations all the time – the world would be a better place.
Islam refers to the religion, the set of beliefs; ‘muslim’ refers to the person. In civil society we protect people, not beliefs (we protect the right to hold beliefs of course).
The recruitment consultant and the girls are guilty of anti-Muslim hatred. I would be the first to defend the woman you mentioned – and probably given the chavs a good hiding too.
As for ‘Islamophobia’ – we actually do have reason to fear what the texts and the religious leaders say, so it is not a ‘phobia’. The term makes it a crime to ridicule or criticise a belief system. Remember the insanity of the cartoonists, and one of our great writers, Sir Salman Rushdie, who had to go into hiding. It is quite right to highlight the texts that inspire hatred and bigotry, as evidenced wherever political islam raises its ugly head.
We should remember what we are fighting for: in a civil society, we should respect and defend the freedom of religion, and of worship; but equally, freedom FROM religion, too.
Indeed, Adrian, its not a phobia if there is rational, proven reasons to distrust a religion that thinks god is offended by cartoons, and calls for the death of the artist.
A rational mind will always question religion, and that’s not a “phobia” of any kind.
Ok I am in no way an expert on Islam, but I did dabble in anthropology at university so let me give something a go.
The vast Majority of Muslims are Shia/Sunni/Wahabbi – these groups are a clear and present danger to gay people in their teachings. Although not every shia or sunni is a danger, indeed probably not the majority in this country.
However Islam is very diverse –
There is one branch called Sufi which as far as I can tell is probably more accepting of gay rights and indeed more compatible with gay people than the COFE and deffo more than the catholicism.
Also i think there are Muslims who follow a sect in which the haddith is rejected and the koran is followed. And I dont think the Koran includes much homophobia.
So while yes, I am wary of Islam, its not so simple as to say all islamic people are bad.
When criticising faith, you simply look at what the Canonical texts say and look at what the reliigous leaders preach. The difference between islam, and various strands of first world christianity outside the Deep South of the USA, is that Christian followers generally don’t believe most of it; unfortunately that is not the case with the majority of muslims, as statistics show, time and time again, on issues such as justifying suicide bombing, attitudes to LGBTs, to sharia law, to women’s rights. Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali highlight this extremely well.
“Do you know anything about social research? How was the sample selected? Most Muslims regard drinking alcohol as as immoral, do you see gangs of bearded Muslims standing outside every pub attacking people? NO!”
ALCOHOL IS ILLEGAL IN MOST MUSLIM-MAGORITY COUNTRIES!
HOMOSEXUALITY IS OPPRESSED EVEN MORE THAN ALCOHOL.
and ur point about research?????
Seriously, make a point or keep it shut.
still waiting and pls dont feel at liberty to tell me what to do
“FACE IT DOG!”
Stupid apologist for homophobic Muslims accuses me of resorting to personal insults and then refers to others as ‘dogs’? That’s hilarious.
pls dont tell me u feel exenorateed just because someone else lowered to your standarts
I feel exonerated* for exposing a hypocrite, yes.
A hypocrite who, by the way, was unable to dispute any of the arguments I put across.
pls stop acting like north korean regime
How am I acting like the North Korean regime?
What kind of stupid thing is that to say?
knew u would be stupid enough to get it
And, even if Muslim homophobia was limited to thought and not action – so they regard us as immoral, unnatural, sinful ‘sodomites’ but wouldn’t use the law against us to prosecute us and et cetera – how is that good enough?
Would it be acceptable to you (or anyone else) if I thought/said black people are dumb, ugly and have a predisposition to crime but I don’t actually go around and attack black people or call for legal discrimination against them? Would that be acceptable? Would I stll not be regarded as a racist and bigot? So, why should Muslims get away with holding such disgusting views about gay people?
well said, and i also find it really funny that alig should speak of thought control, considering he is the one that supports a brainwashing superstition and vulnerable to the dogma. clearly a victim of thought control.
i think black people would strongly object to your abuse of their dignity, not that it would stop you from making future points at their expense
“i think black people would strongly object to your abuse of their dignity”
Just as many gay people object to the abuse of their dignity by Muslims.
so u happy with your abuse of their dignity?
so much for liberal ideas at expense of others
So me condemning Muslims for their homophobia is an abuse of their dignity?
I guess by that logic Jews who condemn anti-Semites are abusing the dignity of anti-Semities, yes?
no its abuse of black people’s dignity
I have mixed race duel heritage and find it objectionable that you should assume that black people are not capable or too obtuse to interpret samb’s hypotheses. This is more a display of your latent isms than samb’s comment.
“….I have mixed race duel heritage….”
oh so that all of a sudden makes you an expert on everything non white and thats even before disscusing my background. another one on a high horse rodeo style
i was speaking subjectively on that basis but its obvious your covert understanding of what ethnic minorities are capable to interpret is clear for all. you are an idiot who has nothing of worth to contribute .
“…it’s obvious your covert understanding of what ethnic minorities are capable to interpret is clear for all…”
so far i havent see any evidence of you being capable of understanding that yourself, so that obviously make you an idiot too and clearly you hugely overrating your contribution on these matters.
p.s. pls rest your high horse, its verging on animal cruelty
Wow, a true voice of the ignorant!
“Ignore it at your peril.”
I’m not ignoring anything. I said ‘Islamophobia’ doesn’t exist because being anti-Islam isn’t a phobia. It’s perfectly rational (for liberals like myself) to be anti-Islam. Someone who isn’t anti-Islam can’t be a liberal.
You can’t have a favourable or even a neutral opinion of a sexist, homophobia, pro-death penalty and anti-free dom of expression religion and then claim to be a liberal.
And my reply is, why can it not exist, in the true sense of the word?
Islam frightens me. Is that not technically Islamophobia?
Whether my fears are unfounded or not, or whether I am even against them or not, is irrelevant.
What they are now is worrying, but it is what they are likely to become unless some severe controls are not put in place soon, that really scares me.
These people have been allowed to run roughshod everywhere and do or say what they want, and any criticism is immediately shot down as racist or islamophobic, and nobody dares say anything for fear of being branded a bigot.
It’s only this recent spate of anti-LGBT comments that many people have finally woken up and smelled the coffee and hookah.
It wouldn’t be ‘Islamophobia’ because there is a RATIONAL reason as to why you fear and are opposed to Islam.
Who said a phobia had to be irrational?
My fear is genuine and well-founded, I can assure you.
“It’s only this recent spate of anti-LGBT comments that many people have finally woken up and smelled the coffee and hookah.”
Well, except for the likes of Andy who obviously can’t smell the coffee and refuse to believe any criticism of islam.
u r even more of a cretin than i thought, i have made constractive points about ur lack of intelctual ability to make valid points but u keep embarassing yourself how masochistic
I feel I must say again, while i agree we must be wary of islam, especially shia/sunni and ESPECIally Wahhabist (?), it is not so simple to say MUSLIM=BAD.
For example Sufi Muslims are extremely gay friendly, and not anti gay.
Also I think there are some Muslims ( a distinct sect) who reject the hadith and instead only accept the Koran. Which I believe is not homophobic.
Yes, not EVERY SINGLE Muslim in the world agree on the issue of homosexuality (and gay rights) or any other issue for that matter.
But we have to look at the overall picture, and it is not good.
No you missed my point.
Islam is a massive religion and is very diverse, huge swathes of it (Sunni/shia/Wahibbi) are homophobic and thus must be challenged. But It is important to single out the different sects when you are discussing it, as it would be unfair to call Sufi muslims homophobes in the same way it would be to call unitarian christians homophobes.
If 99% of Muslims are homophobic but 1% are not, then you have to excuse those who say things like ‘Muslims are homophobic’. Yes, that statement would not TECHNICALLY be correct because there is 1% which isn’t homophobic, but the statement is almost correct. We have to look at the overall picture here, and not use the fact that there is a tiny minority of Muslims who aren’t homophobic cloud the reality of the situation.
I dont believe 99% are homophobic. I actually know some gay muslims, they have plenty of muslims friends.
I would agree a huge chunk are homophobic, im just asking for some nuance.
Actually if we are discussing the uk not even 1% of muslims found homosexuality acceptable according to recent muslim led research.
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I have spent today bored and have decided to use the telegraph and independent messaging boards. I am adamant that the greatest threat to lgbt people in this country is from evangelical christians and little Englanders, not from Muslims.
agree, well spoted
“I am adamant that the greatest threat to lgbt people in this country is from evangelical christians and little Englanders, not from Muslims.”
And? We criticise evangelical Christians and little Englanders. It’s not like we ignore the threat they pose to liberal values. The issue, however, is that a lot of people ignore the grave threat Muslims pose to liberal, Enlightenment values.
Also, let’s not forget the Christianity seems to be in decline in this country, so the threat from them is decreasing. This can’t be said for Muslims.
Im in no way saying lets ignore muslim homophobia, I was merely placing it in context.
Also evangelical christianity is rising in this country unfortunately.
Also you should really say some Muslims, or even the majority of muslims, but saying muslims as a blanket term is just silly.
People interpret books in different ways.
Well, it is certainly not ‘some’ Muslims. It’s the vast majority – ALMOST all – Muslims who are homophobic.
“no its abuse of black people’s dignity”
The example I gave about black people was just that – an example. It was a hypothetical, you idiot.
since you are thick like plank of wood i have no choice but to elaborate, you are making such moronicly simple bigoted points than, unless you asume that everyone is as thick as you, there is no need for you to ilustrate your ramblings with references to other minorities at their expense. and calling yourself liberal is the extreme abuse of everything that word stand for. you are bogot and racist (my reply to rapture explains why). and stop calling everyone idiot, people will think ur special needs. im out, good bye
“unless you asume that everyone is as thick as you, there is no need for you to ilustrate your ramblings with references to other minorities at their expense”
He then goes on to say:
“stop calling everyone idiot, people will think ur special needs.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would think special needs people are a minority, and you are using an analogy at their expense.
Pot. Kettle. Black?
I suspect Andy is either a typical PC leftie that feels he has to fight everyone else battles when they never asked of it, or a hard done by black guy that has a massive chip on his shoulder and blames everyone else and their racist attitudes for why he never amounted to anything.
1) When anyone says something like “typical pc leftie” I always ignore what they say. Its a meaningless statement. The whole anti PC industry is ridiculous. I have never met anyone who believes political correctness should mean anything more than you should judge people by how they treat others, not a immutable quality they may have.
2) Your comment about a black guy with a chip on his shoulder sounds a tad narrow minded. As a white relatively well off man I know full well i have advantages that black people do not have. For example at my UNI there was 1 black person in my year, 1! out of 200 people.
So that would make you the “typical PC leftie that feels he has to fight everyone else battles when they never asked for it” then?
I rest my case, M’lud.
last sentence was addet to amuse experts on hypocriy like yourself, hoped you enjoyed it immensely
“I dont believe 99% are homophobic”
Well, according to one opinion poll carried out in 2009, 100% of Muslim respondents in thsi country were of the opinion that homosexuality is immoral. So, I appreciate that you would like a bit more nuance from me but that 100% doesn’t leave much for nuance. Though, having said that, I get what you’re trying to say.
The reason I dont like the term PC leftie is because it doesnt mean anything. Its just a silly term. Its what telegraph readers yell at anyone who disagrees with them. It doesnt mean anything.
Left wing people have and will be consistently gay people’s best political friend.
Also I just dont believe 100% or 99% of Muslims in the UK are homophobic. Admittedly i got no stats to back this up, but I have met a fair few muslims and being gay has never been a problem.
Also if we want to talk immigration – it is the influx of eastern european catholics that is keeping the Catholic church alive in this country. So why dont we focus on limiting those.
We do not hear of Catholic preachers and their followers calling for the murder of homosexuals and non-believers. If you can’t see the difference between the church’s admittedly objectionable views on gay marriage or adoption and incitement to murder, well, there’s no hope for you.
People who ignore or censor investigation into and exposure of the probable causes of the problem are NOT our friends, whatever ‘wing’ they claim to be. They actually add to the problem.
Im not censoring anything, nor am I saying we should ignore any form of homophobia, I am merely saying we should have some perspective.
I live in a largely white area, the homophobia I have met around town has been from other white and therefore probably non muslim people.
- What the catholics and christians do is try to change the laws so they can discriminate against us.
Also there is no evidence for the fact that the majority of hate crimes against gays are committed by Muslims.
Yes there is no evidence to suggest muslims are responsible for more homophobic hate crimes . However 100% of muslims find homosexuality immoral.Also as you live in a predominantly white area it wouldd go most crimes were committed by caucausian. Anyhow come live in a muslim ghetto , be an out open gay man and then come back with your views.
That’s precisely why we are having this discussion, Scott, to put Islamofascist hate into perspective, alongside the other forms of hate which we often condemn.
I never see you on the numerous threads about bigotry from evangelical, catholic or church of england, or hatred from white thugs, asking why we don’t talk about islamic extremism there. Why the double standards?
I think some of you are just allergic to condemning Islamic extremism: please, get used to it.
The reason I dont like the term PC leftie is because it doesnt mean anything. Its just a silly term. Its what telegraph readers yell at anyone who disagrees with them.
Yeah, interesting. Leftie PC types have a name for Daily Telegraph readers too:
If anyone is responsible for trying to send people that disagree with them on a guilt trip, it’s bloody socialists. If you are concerned about immigration, you are immediately branded a racist. If you criticise any gay policies, you are homophobic, and if you put rubbish in the wrong dustbin, you are “destroying the planet”. That’s why this country is in such a mess now because people are too afraid to speak out and say what everyone already knows. Labour’s blatantly non-existent immigration laws have wrecked this country, and it will take years to redress the balance, if ever.
I would never call someone a n@zi unless they wanted to round jews, the disabled and gays up and put them into camps. So your point is just silly.
No one in the history of this country has ever been called a racist for raising legitimate opposition to immigration.
Legitimate: wage suppression, culture shock.
Illegitimate: Immigrants are criminals, they get all the houses/benefits, they spread disease. All such reasons are demonstrably false. Its not PC GONE MAD, to say this, but the truth. But we all know the truth has a well known left wing bias.
If you put rubbish in the wrong bin, id say “hey it dont matter, next time could you put it into the right bin, thanks”.
If you say homosexuality is unnatural and wrong, you are a homophobe.
How is this country in a mess? There are problems yes, but we live longer than we ever have before, crime is low, reactionary prejudice is declining. Dont be so worried man, chill.
Remember this who Ken Livingstone broke ranks with to give his total supprt and even campaign for him!!
Want devisive then vote for Ken!!
Problem im faced with is that id rather eat my own face than vote boris.
Did you want fries with that!!
Incidentally ,anyone hear bout the imam in leyton who had to retract his agreement with the theory of evolution and his support of women not to wear the hijab, due to the mass of death threats. yea islam is a really peaceful religion , ye fools keep telling yourself that.
Incredible that in the 21st century this should happen. And in a developed country, or at least in what was once regarded as a developed country.
This is becoming the norm now unfortunately. Now you face death threats for trying to educate with scientific facts and a belief that women have a choice how to dress . What next ? and we still get the phoney liberal brigade supporting a religion that represses intellectual/scientific fact and womens equality.
Yes, I saw the clip and the after results.
Sadly it shows how backward the religion is. Lets not forget this is what the extremists want to force on us all without question.
Hardly a peaceful, loving religion it has to be said.
yes and where is rebecca shaw and her rainbow group and what are they doing to tackle lutfurs army?
A leading question rapture. I suspect they’d refuse to believe it and make excuses for it instead. Y’know the usual.
Wonder what the UAF those guardians of freedom and anti fascism have to say about these increasing episodes of discrimination. No doubt they will stilll be able to get their useful idiots out on the street when required. Strange that those who squeal most about discrimination are amongst the first to practise it when they can get away with it.
I don’t think the EDL is as homophobic as some would suggest. They cancelled the invitation to the Koran burning pastor on the grounds of his homophobia.
Only after it was highlighted by gay rights people that this guy was very homophobic. It is a slippery slope, your kidding yourself if you think people such as the EDL wouldnt turn on gays once theyve done in arabs.
- Although agreed about the weakness of UAF. Generally a great organisation, but on these issues its dropping the ball.
Actually the EDL isn’t against Muslims it is against Extremist Muslims. The media have paint a very narrow picture of them and yes I feel they have been hijacked by some BNP members unhappy with their own party.
I have to say I find it totally hypocritical that we get have anti facist groups rightly protesting against the BNP but not against people like Islam4UK with is just as extremist.
The EDL was set up to protest against this hypocracy to campaign against Muslim extremist that the powers that be refuse to act on in fear they will be branded racists. Again religion – racist arguement doesn’t make sense.
Whats mixed up is that the EDL campaign against Muslim extremist then the anti facist group campaign against them. What message is that getting across?
Lets face it the reason Anti-Facist groups won’t campaign against Muslim extremist is because they are Asian. Which would make those Anti Facist groups racist, surely?
Oh the irony!
PS – No I am Not a member of the EDL it just that I do research and actually read.
Im sorry but I have to disagree. They are either lying or they themselves dont know what they stand for. One minute their eladers says he is against extremist muslims (which is a respectable position and a right one) but the next minute he says he is against all muslims. He also uses the actions of a few Muslims to paint all muslims in a certain way.
The edl are hijacking working class anger, which is caused by a lack of jobs and housing, and are directing it towards immigrants and muslims in particular. They are not actually targetting the real causes of such problems so I have no respect for them.
I think you confuse EDL with BNP. EDL have LGBT groups as well as a mixture of faith groups. Media paint a negative picture so most go one why they hear not looking to research such claims.
If people are listening to them doesn’t that actually show something. This is why the media are giving the EDL negative coverage because the main parties don’t want them to progress, God forbid should they actually listen for a change.
Fact is Muslim extremist are largely ignored and for most law-abidding people this is a concern.
Anti-Facist groups need equal clarity to protest extremist Whoever they are. Only then will they themselves start to be taken seriously.
completely agree . Why are the anti facist groups never at protests outside mosques that host extremist islamic imams etc who support hate against lgbt and are anti womens equality. These anti facist leagues are actually facist as they seem to be selective to what forms of prejudice they proclaim to fight against . So they support the rights of facist extremists against lgbt and women. They should change their name to pro facist league.
I think the Anti Facists need to find a cause and stick to it but it needs to be equal, not one protest for one group in society and not for another. They only show themselves up.
The leader of the EDL names himself after a football hooligan. Nuff said.
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The problem is that as soon as an organisation indicates nationality in it’s title then it is considered inherently racist. In the case of the BNP it’s true.
However, rather than believing what the media write perhaps we should research and come to our own conclusions.
I like to think of myself as a very tolerant and non-judgmental person but I can’t sit back and allow anti-fascist groups to jump into bed with those who would do me and my friends harm? What kind of person would that make me?
There IS a real problem with radical religion (both Islam and Christianity – except the latter are less inclined to do physical harm).
In the East End (and I speak as someone born and bred in Bethnal Green and then Stepney) there is an issue. These posters are appearing, this ‘Mayor’ has connections with hardliners and many of the places I grew up in have been ‘ghettoised’. Instead of a welcoming environment LA’s have allowed this hatred to fester under the guise of tolerance.
Incidently I went to a school that was 97% Bengali Muslim. The school around the corner was 100% Bengali Muslim. I fail to see how this kind of environment would spread tolerance and open-mindedness when many more from that community are more inclined to be very religious.
Also for the record, don’t talk about racism to me either. As a minority white person I was often beaten up, called racist names, spat on and generally treated like rubbish because of my skin colour.
Im not disagreeing that there is a problem with radical religion, or indeed radical Islam, nor am I disagreeing with the fact that many parts of the UK have become religious ghettos, but I just dont think the EDL are the answer.
They are football hooligans and far, far right people who hate gay people. They may not be saying it yet, but they will do. Was it Cardinal Newman who gave the “first they came for the jews…” speech?
I agree, the EDL are not the answer but I think you’ll find the football hooligans and far, far right people are in fact from the likes of the BNP hijacking the EDL because they feel the BNP have failed and the media jumping on that fact to drown out the cause.
I do think that a minority race in a school can fair badly with regards to education no matter if white or black etc. Very often the majority culture takes preference leaving others behind. A balance needs to be draw so all can learn about each other and learn from each other.
I agree, England seems to be the only country where a party with national identity is considered racist (as said apart from the BNP of course). I think that is intentional though. I also think the AV vote will show why.
I also fully understand and agree that the EDL are not the answer. But then what is? We can discuss this until we’re blue in the face but until people begin to come forward and make a stand as a cohesive unit (instead of the flawed anti-fascist platform that many use) this problem will not only continue but it will get worse. We need a strong leader to take us forward, cross-party, cross-culture. We do not need to take our stand with anti-fascists (they’re not concnered with sexuality) as we’re strong enough to take a stand together.
As for the EDL and the BNP. History tells us that when society becomes discontent it leans to the extremes. It’s not a surprise is it?
Your right Mendirin!
Trouble is when people become discontent and lean to the extreme the main parties should be willing to listen, willing to take action for the people and not carry on ignoring.
@andy, @willk – Ukip are nuts. and there is a lot of evidence they are homophobic: teh lesbian UKIP MEP who quit after receiving homophobic insults + the UKIP parliamentary candidate who said they would remove all gay rights legislation as it “persecuted christians”.
Also UKIP oppose the ECHR, they campaigned on this in Barnsley. The ECHR is the only institution that has consistently been on the side of LGBT people, and given us rights we were previously denied. So while they may not say outwardly anti gay things, there actions would be anti gay.
They support removing the ring fence on nhs spending and allowing full competition, which would lead to extremely worse care for people living with chronic illnesses (multiple sclerosis, hepatitis, diabetes). They also support an unregulated herbal medicine market. So there health policies consist of kicking those who are sick, and supporting that which does nothing to help the sick.
They support an educational voucher system, which…
… never been shown to work and has infact been shown to increase educational inequalities.
- They want to double the number of prison places and introduce a three strikes sentencing policy (two policies that any intelligent person from any political perspective would say is just downright stupid, and a waste of money).
They want to introduce a flat tax that would benefit the superrich while punishing the middle and working classes.
They want to increase our huge army, that we have never been able to afford in the last 70 years as anyone with even a basic grasp of economics will tell you is the truth.
This is party that merely appeals to people’s base instincts by making claims that any thoughtful person knows to be rubbish. They campaign in a manner to appeal to right wing false conspiracy theories about crime and immigration.
So dont say anyone who opposes them is a dumb socialist. I oppose them as their policies are demonstrably crazy.
I’m so tired of muslims and east indians and all there drama!! Theres a reason your countries are plagued with poverty and vilance. Your people are their own poison. You hate queers, I hate muslims, but I’m not going to walk around yelling it or put up signs… Freaks, get a life… clearly waaayy too much time on their hands…
typo…. their** violence**.. I dont mean to be a hater, thanks!
Knew this would happen as soon as a Muslim mayor got in charge. Notice the question was slipped in with the General Election removing any debate on the matter.
for all gay people commenting against the edl we have a gay and lesbian division on most marches there is the rainbow flag flying,i have gay friends and they are good friends,homophobia is increasing but dont blame the edl i and all i know have no problems with gay people,later this year some of us are attending a gay pride event in preston,dont believe what people want you to hear,go on youtube and look at the edl blackpool demo and preston and blackburn you will see the rainbow flag.