His mother is a fundie christian and he is a child.
Therefore, I dismiss his points of view as the anti-intellectual dribblings of an irrelevant moron.
How is it genetic? She’s *raising* him.
I agree he is just a stupid child and a moron that needs to grow up and keep his mouth SHUT
Valksy, thank you for making me laugh. So true. Thank god he can’t vote yet.
Exactly. He needs to sack his media training company.
Other people his age are better educated.
It doesn’t sound like he’s saying sexuality is a choice. More like, having sex is the choice, and it doesn’t affect him because its everyones’ own decision. I’m not a fan, but what he’s saying really doesn’t sound homophobic and I really don’t think it should be jumped upon.
i agree with you.. i do not think that he is saying being gay is a choice, i think that he is saying, loving someone is their choice no matter if they are straight, gay or bi.. you can not help whom you love.
as for abortion… i will not share my personal thoughts on this subject however, i will say this is a young child so of course his beliefs are going to be the same as the person that raised him.
ask him when he hits say… 21…
even if he was saying that it was a choice to be gay, he’s not saying being gay is even a bad thing. it’s a very mature point-of-view to take. he’s saying that heterosexuality and homosexuality are morally equal.
Well said Valksy.
He’s totally overrated but why do they ask a child about sex, rape, pregnancy and homosexuality anyway?
For the unreasonable influence this kid has on other kids, Bieber’s immature, parroted responses shouldn’t be published anywhere!
Well it’s just as well I choose not to hang on every word spouted by flash in the pan pre-pubescent popstars who make preteen girls wet their knickers then.
His politics is as mature as his average audience.
snotty nosed religious freak……..
Mr. Bean-er “abortion” is right, your mother should have done it long time ago…
Absolutely right, Axe.
He has always had that creepy Osmonds look about him!
It must be soul destroying to know in a few years he will be just another washed up has been plastic pop star.
I wonder if his views on abortion will change when the inevitable groupie turns up pregnant. I bet he will get his chequebook out without a second thought.
I don’t think he thinks for himself, he just repeats what he was told from his parents or other authority figures. A common problem in religious people’s thought processes (or lack thereof).
Another celebrity bubblehead!
How to lose fans and alienate people!
He’s very young (isn’t he??) and I think he sounds somewhat uncomfortable with the line of questioning, and not at all like he walked into the offices of Rolling Stone with the plan of dissing gay people and raped women.
Yes, his beliefs are stupid. But I think both Rolling Stone (and, by amplification, the Pink News headline) are trying to turn us into a frenzied rabble — and I’d rather save my indignation for grown ups with an agenda, not waste it on young things who need to think it all through a bit more.
He’s 17, which is most certainly old enough to have an informed opinion on these matters and not be excused for not knowing better. Im 21 now and when i was 17 we had debates about this kind of stuff in class and i assure you those people who took such ignorant views in class then wasnt due to them being too young and they still hold ignorant views now.
Did he choose those views or was he born with them? :)
If you read the Bible, you will see that God did not create us to be with the same sex. Romans 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” and God says, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable” (Leviticus 18:22) and “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads” (Leviticus 20:13). Also, the Bible states that God knew in the womb, you know, since He created us. Abortion is murder. I don’t care what anyone calls me because I believe in God and Jesus as my Savior. One day (as the Bible states) every eye will see Him. And I can’t wait!!!
And that all of you will understand.
Good & accurate reply…..I also can’t wait until every eye sees Him & all will understand what the TRUTH really is. …..then they will have eternity to know who the truly brainwashed people are.
Praying that Justin holds onto his Christian faith & beliefs without allowing peer, or social pressures of this world brainwash him into their thinking.
There is no god sad-acts. You are among the ranks of the brainwashed god botherers. You’re hilarious :-)))
Leviticus and Romans…… well that was original!
Wow, they shouldn’t let a brainwashed kid say such ignorant things in a mag that will be viewed by millions of children. He’s gonna give them the wrong idea.
Women have the choice to do as they wish with their body, and with rape, it should definitely be reasonable. Does anyone realize the crisis of overpopulation? I often think I’m the only one.
Plus, someone needs to ask him if he chooses to be straight.
what makes you think he’s straight?
the fact that hes unaware that gay people dont choose to be gay?
So, according to this gormless twit, rape is in the category “everything happens for a reason”?
So who exactly wants to listen to life advice from a 16 year old?
Well, “everything” means exactly “everything”, with both good and bad stuff… So yes, every-thing happens for any reason that we don’t see, because most of the reasons are beyond our short-sighted views.
I think he was reasonable. I guess very few people read stories about raped women who end up raising children and they turn to be well mannered people, who make a lot of stuff, like helping other people. Who says that children should be aborted because of rape?
I believe, oh piss off, and go peddle your crap else where. I off to choke on a big fat one. cheers my dears.
“..he did not argue against pre-martial sex.” Absolutely. A touch of the Spartan philosophy, nothing like a good bit of pre-martial sex before going into battle. Why does anyone assume that fame brings intelligence with it?
“I don’t care what anyone calls me because I believe in God and Jesus as my Savior”
Then let me be the first to take you up on that offer:- you’re a fool. Is that what you expected? You must get that a lot, I’m sure. Run along, this is a conversation for adults.
I don’t see any problem with someone thinking it is a choice. It’s whether they think people have the right to make that choice that is important.
From my own experience of being homosexual, I would say that yes there is an element of choice within it.
I think people choose to accept that they are gay rather than choose the innate desires. I have watched a friend be extremely depressed because she hated her sexuality, i honestly cant believe that she chose to have those desires when she hates herself for them.
The only “choice” made is whether or not to be who you fully are. And for a lot of people, it is an EXTREMELY difficult choice to make when it could mean the end of friendships, familial support (emotional and/or monetary), and possibly losing their job!! Depending on where you live, if you have children, it can also mean losing your children!
So, yes, that part is a choice. “Acting” on it, so to speak, is a choice. But BEING GAY? No, that is a state of being, not a conscious choice.
Then let me be the first to take you up on that offer:- you’re a fool. Is that what you expected? You must get that a lot, I’m sure. Run along, this is a conversation for adults, not fools.
It’s funny, Taylor Momsen is also 17 and if she said this you’d all slam her to the ground! I’ve not long turned 18 and I was clear on my position of these subjects when I was 17. He’s an idiot and just shows how damaging religion is to people. Rape happens for a reason so therefore she has to keep the baby? Absurd!
“His mother is a fundie christian and he is a child.
Therefore, I dismiss his points of view as the anti-intellectual dribblings of an irrelevant moron”.
Poor kid needs deprogramming.
Dear ‘I believe’, I believe you are a deluded idiot spouting words from a book compiled for the most part by people with serious mental issues. Your posting on this site could be considered offensive and provocative. However, I think you are most probably just a crazy person who thinks one day all your clothes will just fall of and you will be whizzed up into the sky. Should that day ever happen please make sure you don’t go feet up first. Please, and I ask this in a caring, and with a sincere intention to be helpful, please see if you can get your bible whole into your mouth and then, run very fast into the nearest wall. It might just stun you into some sense. As for the fundie-christian brat blubber or whatever its name is, he is hardly out of puberty (not sure if the child has actually made it to puberty by the look of it) what the fcuk does he know about anything? Answer on the back of a stamp, nothing of value.
Of course there are some people who never grow out of parroting Leviticus and Romans. I suggest they read more books.
“From my own experience of being homosexual, I would say that yes there is an element of choice within it.”
Is this Twilight Zone day?
So, explain to me at what point do you come to a decision and say to yourself, “yeah, persecution, threat of violence, abuse and lack of rights… I think I’ll be gay, sounds easy”?
So I assume you can decide to “change” back to straight at any time too? Go on, do it so. And do come back and tell us how that went.
It is a choice in some view point. You choose to say “Look, I’m homosexual” etc. Having feelings doesn’t mean you have to act on them. You can live your whole life without having a relationship you know.
To ‘in my opinion’, why should you live your whole life without being in a relationship? What is the purpose of an individual denying who they are? As for the point about it being a choice to be out, why should it matter. Straight people don’t have to make an announcement, so why should gay, bi or transgender people either live without a relationship or not tell anyone about their feelings? Madness!
then they havnt chosen not to be gay, what theyve chosen in celebacy and denial
Not acting on them doesn’t mean the person is not gay. Let’s look at it a different way. My favorite color is blue. I have a blue shirt and a purple shirt. I can choose to wear either shirt I want, but if I wear the purple shirt that doesn’t mean my favorite color is purple. My favorite color is blue even though not everything I do revolves around that color. In fact, I could go the rest of my life without ever owning anything blue. It’s just kind of unlikely since it’s my favorite color.
the way i see it the ONLY choices we have is stay in the closet or come out, even then some dont have a choice in coming out to family and due to certain circumstances have to come out
If the choices you have are crap, in this case the choice between acknowledging your sexuality and living closeted, they are still choices. I technically have a choice over whether or not I will have children, even though practically speaking I couldn’t possibly have a child, due to severe disability and poverty. I’m not sure how helpful it is to point out that someone still has a choice when their back is against the wall, though, as it’s not worth much as choices go.
He’s gotta retain his squeaky clean all-American boy next door crown so of course he’s going to trot out the regular redneck Christian verbal diarrohea that passes for a sound byte in the States, anything else is commercial suicide. Oh and look he’s got a whole new ‘hairdo’ for the cover of Rolling Stone. Is there anything this kid can’t do? Like f–k off and die?
If you want further proof of this being the ramblings of an idiot. Look up his thoughts on the word ‘German’ on YouTube, it won’t fail to disappoint
So he successfully destroyed his entire gay and female fanbases in one move? Score! Now perhaps he’ll finally bugger off!
FFS, stop giving this moron even more publicity than he already gets! and as for the God botherer. skip past the V1 and get to V2 (otherwise known as The New Testament): don’t seem to be much about homosexuality in that, any way I can put up with being detested by religious nutters :)
When his testicles descend then maybe he can voice ‘adult’ opinions…until then shout up!
You are basically saying that the brain is down there! LOL.
Ignorant little knobhead, lets just hope his mother never gets raped,,as his words would be so comforting,,,errhhh mom everything happens for a reason,,,right,,,,oh so your pregnant too,,,you gotta keep it as its like killing a child,,,,,,right ?,,,,WRONG,,shame fame and fortune doesn’t make you more intelligent :-(
Personally, I hate his music. But at the same time I have respect for his views (minus the dodgy comment on homosexuals, but it doesn’t sound like he’s saying its wrong to be gay). I personally agree with his views on abortion, and abstainence. Does that make me a horrible person? No, I can quite easily combine my strong faith, with my nights out being a scene queen.
And this is a story because…..?
Generally held by
Human sexuality researchers.
Professional mental health therapists and their associations.
Gays, lesbians and bisexuals.
Most religious liberals and their faith groups and some members of mainline religious denominations, that
Homosexuality is an orientation.
It is part of one’s being.
Heterosexuality, bisexuality and homosexuality are three normal, natural variations of sexual orientation, found throughout all societies, cultures, and eras.
A person’s eventual sexual orientation is determined for them before school age.
The tendency towards a particular sexual orientation is genetically predetermined at conception.
An unknown environmental factor may or may not trigger the “gay” gene(s) and determines the person’s orientation.
Sexual orientation in adults is unchangeable.
“So, explain to me at what point do you come to a decision and say to yourself, “yeah, persecution, threat of violence, abuse and lack of rights… I think I’ll be gay, sounds easy”?”
I don’t do things because they sound easy; I’ve always done things because they suit me. Note that people also dress as punks etc. expressly knowing that this might invite persecution.
I found myself, at quite a young age, equally able to masturbate over males or females. I went more with the male fantasies and habituated myself to them. I am generally happy with that decision. Heterosexuality as it was sold at the time didn’t have much interest for me as a lifestyle.
“So I assume you can decide to “change” back to straight at any time too? Go on, do it so. And do come back and tell us how that went.”
I have no interest in doing so, as I am perfectly happy with expressing my sexuality with members of my own sex. Without any motivation to do so, I doubt I would.
I suspect that my comments have made you angry. Well, that does not change my experience. Personally, I find those gays who moan “I wouldn’t choose to be like this” spineless cowards.
What you are describing is what I would call bisexuality. You can and are aroused by both men and women…so yes, in your case, choice could definitely come in to at for you. HOWEVER, there are many of us out there who are only attracted to members of the same sex, so that choice isn’t there. Please be careful when you say that you are gay and you think there is a choice. There are people out there who will use that to fuel their argument and it takes away from the argument of those of us who DON’T have a choice.
it is a choice to be gay
In the article you point out that:
It is not clear whether he intended to label homosexuality as a lifestyle choice.
I think we can conclude that it is the irrelevant musings of a plastic pop puppet whose only main skill is as jail-bait.
cause we all know woman just love having rape babies :-)..*sarcasm*
God isnt real,religion is all made up,created to control people & what they do with their lives which is really sad…
hes a puppet on a string & nothing more..
I don’t think this little piece of crap can discuss matters like that. Being gay is definitely not a decision nor a choice. As to abortion, I don’t think his answer is to be considered. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
At first I thought the only thing I hated about him was his music because he seemed to be a really nice guy by the way he treats his fans. Oh boy was I wrong. This boy needs to be educated or keep his mouth shut.
Hear, hear Joe: there’s loads of different way of being gay – saying ‘there’s no other way of existing except the one that I’ve experienced myself’ is just another kind of fundamentalism.
We shouldn’t be cornered by the Christian crowd into arguing that being gay is only OK because we really, really can’t get it on with the opposite sex – which is not to deny that many people really are exclusively, unchangeably gay.
the singing foetus – what would you know about anything love
The Biebster was
a) stating he believes abortion to be wrong as he believes ‘life’ or ‘person-hood’ to commence at conception. Hence, terminating a ‘life’ in his eyes is murder.
b) stating ‘sexuality’ to be a choice. So what? He says it is and some of you say it isn’t! Difference of opinions are frequent in the world we live in! There may be evidence supporting the theory that ‘sexuality’ is a choice and evidence refuting it.
Secondly, Will, labelling people ‘fools’ on the basis that their opinion differs with yours is a rather immature method of debating.
And also Will, quoting this ‘point’ you made:
“So, explain to me at what point do you come to a decision and say to yourself, “yeah, persecution, threat of violence, abuse and lack of rights… I think I’ll be gay, sounds easy”
Surely using the same logic, you could arrive at the conclusion that ‘desire to own a dog’ is not a choice and is hence a factor beyond our control.
I mean, not being allowed to walk on beaches in summer, being restricted from restaurants and bars…who on earth would make the decision to own a dog?
Young people think old people are fools.
Old people know young people are fools.
Desire to own a dog is certainly not a choice, but actualy owning a dog is made by a choice. Desire forms out of your emotional interaction with outside world and it is not a choice per se, but the choice is what might follow this desire. The desire to have a dog will not necessarily make you buying a dog, but you still have a choice to do so.
Oh!! What does he know???
I’m with you Will. If there’s an “element of choice” as Joe states and we’re listening to the opinions of kids, then it is Twilight Zone day.
I conclude that Joe may well have had a choice since he was likely Bi and could go either way.
I’m not Bi Joe. I’m gay. Born this way. Knew when I was 8. No choice about it. Why did it take another 24 years to come out? Because I was trying to fit myself into the hetero mold my family’s cult-like religion expected. If there was a choice, why did I conclude before finally escaping that life (including all family and friends) that suicide was the solution if, as you say, I could have just chosen not to be gay.
You’re kidding right? An element of choice my ass! Ignorant people like you are so damaging and organised religion is evil for promoting the majority of such ignorance, especially on the young.
If you look at Bieber under a strong enough light you’ll see scars from where the clothes-hanger didn’t quite scoop him out of his mother’s womb fully. So I can understand his views on abortion. No wire hangers- a good shove down the stairs would have been more effective.
The best thing Canada came up with since seal clubbing.
Sarcasm aside, they’re both an affront to human decency. I’m absolutely dreading his new movie, Never say never. Which I just plugged. For free.
I don’t agree with want he’s saying at all. But people in the comments need to stop saying that it’s because he’s only 16 he thinks that. I’m 13, I can easly say that homosexuality isn’t a choice and not everything is for a reason.
Totally agree with Matt and Greeks. This headline is misleading – it’s not clear that he meant to say being gay is a choice, his meaning might have been closer to “What other people do in bed is none of my business.”
I’m disappointed – I really wanted a better reason to hate him than his awful music and stupid haircut.
Firstly, Justin Beiber… not old enough, or clever enough to making any judgments on how people in society act or are. However, I don’t think he was necessarily being homophobic, but I do believe that “Ibelieve” is a homophobic, God fearing idiot. How can you honestly quote from a book of ramblings made by various other idiots.
Religious people need to get a grip, being gay isn’t a choice (I’m not gay, not that it is relevant), like someone else said on here, why would you choose to live a life of ridicule and torment if you didn’t have to.
As for abortion, I am pro choice, however I can understand not agreeing with that one, abortion IS a choice, unlike being gay.
Not sure why I am wasting my time writing on this, maybe it’s because I have uni work to be avoiding, or maybe it’s just because “Ibelieve” is an ignorant tit and it made me angry. I’m guessing it’s both reasons.
Ibelieve, you’re obviously a complete idiot!! Not for your views on religion (which i personally feel are utter nonsense) but for posting a hateful comment on a gay news website that is obviously intended to cause upset! What are you even doing on here!? I don’t spend my spare time going trailing through Christian sites and offending people, so why do you feel the need?! Keep your bigoted (and possibly insane) beliefs to yourself.
As far as the little pop star is concerned, he’s still a kid and not old enough to form his own opinions, hence he does not have the right to vote yet. Lets just hope he opens his eyes by the time he’s an adult. Pop boy doesn’t overly concern me, its the likes of Melanie Philips sppreading hate that bothers me.
I don’t see why he’s being attacked for his answers to the questions asked. I hate this obsessive society where opinion and belief are branded as ridiculous and anyone who doesn’t agree with everyone else is branded a lunatic or a religious fanatic. The headlines are designed to shock – even the one on this article has been taken out of context. Get a grip people, we don’t all have to agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don’t much care for Justin Bieber and I don’t care what his thoughts are (he’s not exactly someone you would expect to come out with anything highly interesting anyway) but I do think people are far too quick to jump on the bandwagon and judge others for ‘outrageous’ beliefs.
Thank you, I thought I was alone on this!
Rushing to conclusion is very much a shallow judgmental way to classify the informations you are getting every day and people has lost the ability to discern whether a different opinion might be right or not, based on the facts and not on their subjective ideas. Poor little world and full with idiocracy! I mean, watch the movie “Idiocracy”… it was a shock to me, but very real to this present-day world.
I’m wondering, does anyone know what are the human rights? (The movie also deals with this issue.)
Justin Bieber expressed an opinion and you have your own. Deal with it! And I’m not his fan.
He’s just a kid who can entertain. Who really cares what his views are on these topics?!
It’s ridiculous really, that people even care.
@ibelieve – them verses condemns heteros for not following their heterosexuality you nitwit! and you are cherry-picking anyway
I Justin is not homophobic though
he isn’t saying it’s choice but it’s awkward saying it’s a decision
“Personally, I find those gays who moan “I wouldn’t choose to be like this” spineless cowards.”
Yeah, that’s would be because its not a choice. But their is no shame for those who would chose, if they could, a life without persecution. The strength is in pride in one self, but everyone’s path to this place is not the same.
“Secondly, Will, labelling people ‘fools’ on the basis that their opinion differs with yours is a rather immature method of debating.”
Yes, fool for using a book of contradiction as proof of anything. When someone is unable to think for themselves, and is not only swallowing nonsense from a book of riddles, but also condemning others on that basis, the term “fool” is quite apt, I’m afraid. And so it applies to anyone, like you, who thinks the bible is anything but a confusing book of stories or a valid opinion. Discrimination is never a valid opinion.
“Surely using the same logic, you could arrive at the conclusion that ‘desire to own a dog’ is not a choice and is hence a factor beyond our control.”
Stupid analogy. Comparing something that is obviously a choice with something that is a state of being and thinking their the same is hardly proof of anything other then you haven’t a clue what point you’re trying to make. Please try a little harder next time to make more sense with your analogies.
he is a twat!
Puberty is going to hit Justin Bieber like a train.
Then hopefully a train will hit Justin Bieber like a train.
justanobserver, naita, I agree but the biggest issue for me here is his influence. I don’t really care what any individuals thoughts are, most individuals sphere of influence extend maybe to their immediate friends and no further but when it comes to (I hate the term I’m about to use for him) a celebrity, who has influence on others, to the point of fanaticism, when those thoughts start being vocalised, I do care what those thoughts are.
Axe, I do agree that those in a position of influence have a responsibility – particularly when they are followed significantly by young people. However, I do think if he is asked a question he is uncomfortable answering (as is fairly obvious in this case judging by his answers), he should answer honestly. I don’t buy that he’s homophobic in the slightest but everyone should bear in mind there is NO answer he could have given that would have pleased everyone. Hence, I think people should calm down and stop attacking him for giving his opinion. It’s alright to disagree!!
Firstly, he’s older than me, not by much, but the fact remains, so I’m speaking as a “child” of course.
I don’t care for his music or views. His comment on homosexuality just seems like an ignorant mistake. Unfortunately, any of his young fans who read this article could always interpret his comments differently. As for the abortion comments, I fail to see how he could’ve logically come to that conclusion not to mention his insensitive view on rape. Though I can’t say I’m surprised, Justin Bieber has always struck me as the sort of person who should’ve learnt to read before he learnt to talk.
When I look at that feminin little freak my radar goes off the scale. I’m betting in about 10 years or so we will be reading in Pink News about how he “needed to come out” ala Ricky Martin.
totally justanobserver, which is why my initial response on here was to question why young celebrities are being asked such, clearly inappropriate, questions – obviously to catch him out and thus generate some shock factor and sell news.
I wouldn’t say he’s homophobic either to be honest but his untrained responses could cause confusion to fans on where they should position themselves on such matters.
I’m sure he’ll learn to deal with press eventually but he clearly needs to learn quickly.
Seriously, is what a child thinks on the subject newsworthy?
And @ibelieve: the “natural use of the woman”? LOL, thank you for sharing that lovely passage. It’s not misogynistic at all!
For all those jumping on the moral high ground saying his mother should have aborted him (twisted), hoping he gets hit by a train (sick), have you not noticed he is basically still a CHILD? Such venom! Expecting him to be well-rounded, hyper mature, omniscient and infallible is uncalled for. Iffy comments, clearly, but for goodness sake let him grow up a bit before you start sticking the knives in and being so over-judgemental. Some of the comments on here are truly shameful – wishing hm death and all that. It’s like a pack of hyenas – at your ages you should all know better!
We were all young and naive once, give the kid a chance to get through puberty first and work things out for himself!
The kid is 16 and has spent most of the last two years in a PR bubble. It’s unreasonable to expect him to have come to mature points of view on these issues. Let him grow up a bit, become disillusioned with his parents, make his own friends, and form his own opinions before expecting him to make sense.
It unfair to ask him questions like that.
He sings and performs well, that does not make him an oracle.
Just what is magazine like Rolling Stone doing publishing answers to questions like that from a child???
Wait, wait, wait.
Why do we even care? This KID is a dreadful singer and now has another terrible film. He has absolutely no point of view, and even if he does – he’s a “celebrity,” who gives a flying feck what he says or thinks?
Sadly it is his choice to be an idiot.
Silly Wee Boy!
Apart from him being a talentless little erc, ‘Despite his strong Christian background he did not argue against pre-martial sex.’ Which of course Jesus openly and clearly condemned. Like all fundamentalists, he (and probably his parents) is of course, an idiotic hypocrite with no intellectual capabilities past reading and writing basic English.
I take it he’s decided not to be gay then – which means he is gay/bisexual. Why else would he think sexuality is something you can decide?
Okay, your headline is extremely misleading and it REALLY angered me. I angered me. Matt is completely right. He wasn’t saying that sexuality is a choice, he was saying that how someone lives their life is their own business and does not hurt anyone else. How can you twist those words to make him anti-gay? It really bothers me, because I am all for gay rights, have a lot of gay friends, and then I see this cycling through my facebook, causing uproar because people are too lazy to read past the headline. So disappointing.
He is a child, who will be forgotten (hopefully!) within a year. I have absolutely no interest in his comments and let’s hope neither has anyone else….
Has he even got any pubes yet?
I think he looks like a very pretty lesbian.
Abortion is wrong even if it’s caused by rape!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? So baby is born, old enough to some what understand things, “Mom, who’s my dad?” “Oh, you’re dad is the one who brutally raped me.” =S I would definitely get an abortion if I was raped, the baby doesn’t deserve to have such a nasty father…or no father at all.
@mmmmmmmmm… “We were all young and naive once, give the kid a chance to get through puberty first and work things out for himself!”
Yes we were all young once, however, I’m thinking that 99.9/10% of us never were in a position to influence our piers or give interviews to Rolling Stone (shame on Rolling Stone, they once had a reputation one could look up to) that would be picked up by every media this side the planet Mars.
His parents should have nixed this thing from the start unless the agreed upon subject only dealt with his immediate career.
The world can do without his views on subject matter that deals with issues such as abortion and theories on why people are gay.
An immature 16 year old (any 16 year old) who has influence over hundreds of thousands of young minds should stick with the what he (supposedly) knows best, music.
why would they ask a child about such things rolling stone magazine reporter was stupid for asking a child these types of questions. His opinions may change and more then likely his opinions now stem from his parents beliefs……. way to go RS!!!
Excuse me, but what is there to like in this Bieber kid – a mediocre voice, avarage looks and now it turns out – shallow mind, so just forget about him.
Everyone should just dismiss him as an ill-informed child and move on. So he is a celebrity. So is Willow Smith, and I wouldn’t ask her opinion on any of these issues. Homosexuality doesn’t involve anyone but the homosexual couples, therefore should be left alone. Abortion, while sad, can be considered necessary. Every controversial subject should be left to those who it pertains to.
Cheers for the hell-avoidance tip Ibelieve, it is indeed awful for two men who love each other to act on the emotions God bestowed upon them.
Incidentally, the other day I saw a family gathering sticks on a Saturday. As you can imagine I was absolutely livid!
Luckily I had enough heavy rocks with me to cave their blaspheming heads in.
It’s not odd that he’s a young, white, privileged male and has a privileged opinion.
He’s also just a kid who clearly wasn’t briefed on how to handle questions that require thought-out answers.
Why would anyone ask him about this, anyway?
what a tragic conception.
Am I the only one who actually finds the guy very sexy indeed? Probably not, but meh, that’s kind of irrelevant.
He’s clearly got a lot more thinking to do about these issues (who hasn’t got a lot more thinking to do his age?), but I can’t say I find him offensive. It’s not like he’s trying to foist his tentative opinions on anyone – in fact, from what was reported here, I get the impression that he was slightly uncomfortable being asked about it by his interviewers.
The comment about homosexuality was very ambiguous indeed on whether he really did think it a choice, and in every other respect an entirely supportive affirmation of a live-and-let-live attitude. I am fine with that. Even if he really does believe that being gay is a choice, I’m fine with that. He’s wrong if he does, but that’s no reason to think he’s an idiot – lots of us misunderstand all kinds of things.
His views on abortion are more clearly articulated, and hence more clearly morally inadequate. But again, he’s not trying to force his opinions on anyone, and is it any wonder he thinks this way given his upbringing? A lack of education or exposure to the facts is not a crime, merely something that should be remedied.
There is perhaps some mileage in the claim that his views might influence others, and hence should not have been published, but that’s really the fault of the magazine, not Bieber himself. At any rate, I’m not sure anyone, even young teenagers, bases their moral outlook on reports of the views of Justin Bieber as written in Rolling Stone magazine. Were he touted by anyone as a moral authority or source of wisdom then he’d be more problematic, but he isn’t.
he’s just a stupid kid!
@ Axe “If there was a choice, why did I conclude before finally escaping that life (including all family and friends) that suicide was the solution if, as you say, I could have just chosen not to be gay.”
This is a non-argument. I have no reason why you considered suicide, and your home-life sounds quite appalling. Plenty of people throughout history have chosen to be celibate. They’ve chosen all sorts of odd outcomes for their lives. That we have some volition is one of the most interesting things about human beings. Personally, I don’t believe that anybody is born gay; there can be all kinds of shaping factors in our process of forming our selves. But there’s nothing wrong with being gay, and people once they’ve got it into their heads that they prefer members of their own sex quite rightly will not budge – and there’s no reason why they should.
I am sorry that you and others are so fundamentalist about this. All I hear when you speak is special pleading and weakness. It’s like you NEED to believe you were “born this way” because otherwise you couldn’t stand the fact you do the gay.
Gay is a series of actions and not a state of being.
I find your reporting on this article Horrible!! You changed everything this kid said just to make it work for your story benefit!! as for being gay he didnt mean it as a choice he was saying its no ones business in a nice way.“It’s everyone’s own decision to do that. It doesn’t affect me and shouldn’t affect anyone else.” The Abortion comment was only because of his believes and he even said “I guess I haven’t been in that position, so I wouldn’t be able to judge that.” So how about stop trying to make others look bad and focus on some real damn issues for a change. Sorry excuse for reporter!
Ask a child and adult question and you will get a child’s answer,not to mention the poor little bastard was obviously brainwashed anyway. where was his choice?!
Joe “Gay is a series of actions and not a state of being.”
You are obviously not gay, or you wouldn’t spout crap like that. Do you seriously think people choose to be hounded, bullied, beaten up and even killed? You are a fcukwit.
Being gay is between the ears, not the legs.
This is what you get with celebrity obsession. He’s only 16 and a child. His talent, presumably is his voice, clearly not his non-existent thinking capabilities. Why are supposedly serious magazines bothering with his opinion on these matters in the first place?
First things first, I think Justin Bieber is gorgeous. but I not a big fan his music, I am proudly gay myself. but I personally dont think he is homophobic though because I think he know he has got a very big gay fanbase, he has been interviewed by Graham Norton & most notably Alan Carr (in which he flirted with Alan Carr by throwing popcorn in his face), plus he is only young & I personally think that his own publicist & manager have payed him or have told him to say those things to maintain his image for the sake of covering up his own homosexuality?.
Somebody get an egg timer and measure how long before he ‘comes out’ because hethinks its fashionable to be gay.
“Gay is a series of actions and not a state of being.”
Pity 99.99% of gay people disagree with that. But I’m, sure you’ll find a priest or some other religion nut in NARTH to back you up.
“All I hear when you speak is special pleading and weakness. It’s like you NEED to believe you were “born this way” because otherwise you couldn’t stand the fact you do the gay.”
Er, no. We were born gay. Sorry if you need to convince yourself otherwise. Seems to me like you’re another classic fit fort the ex-gay brigade. You should go ahead and get the “ex” gay therapy, it’ll be a win-win for all of us:- you can continue to delude yourself, and we don’t have to listen to you.
In fact, your conviction sin this area are nothing short of a marvellous demonstration of the power of self denial. We call it a closet, no doubt you have your own name: choice.
He basically said everyone has the right to decide and choose what they want to do with their life…dont make something more of it then it was. People just trying to make something out of nothing. Leave the kid alone he has the right to say whatever he wants, no matter what anyone wants to feel about it.
leave the kid alone. He is just a kid. There is a reason that they do not let children vote. They still have yet to realize the they can take the imformation they have learned and decided how they fell about it.
@Lindsay, I think you have a very good point & I agree with you too. But can I ask you a question. are you infact the real Lindsay Lohan. because the pic on your account looks abit her. plus I am a big fan of your too. hope I havent offended you.
I was wondering if you thought that . .
Heterosexuality was series of actions and not a state of being.?
that headline is a real stretch
I suspect he’ll regret saying this once he hits puberty and realises that he is gay.
@ Ibelieve…wow your amazing. Nobody here has ever had any of those passages quoted at them before and they haven’t ever heard any of the theological arguements against your interpretation of them. I think you may have got away with it. Wink.
he chose to be a lesbian
Ed Johnson “I suspect he’ll regret saying this once he hits puberty and realises that he is gay.”
He’s 16, dammit! If his balls haven’t dropped by now, there’s something very wrong.
Look, he’s 16 years old. I remember being 16 very clearly; I was an idiot, and believed ridiculous things which I certainly do not today. I doubt he’s been trained to answer questions about abortion and so on, and I doubt he’s fully formed his views. He was put on the spot and now everyone’s attacking him for his responses as if he were a grown adult who’s expected to make responsible adult decisions about these things.
And so what if he’s not as clever or intelligent as other 16-year-olds? He’s celebrated for his musical talent (which he actually does have in shedloads) and good looks, and that’s what make him popular.
It’s irresponsible of a magazine to print stuff like this. Ask him about his own life like any respectable publication.
A Hypercritical bigot!
Added to my above comment: his views have indeed been misrepresented. He acknowledges that he can’t really judge concerning abortion and is clearly not homophobic.
And even if for some reason you don’t like him (I’m presuming it’s for his music; there’s a lot of music I don’t like and not a lot of people I want dead) – what kind of person wishes death on a 16-year-old boy?
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Silly immature boy!!!
He has been on Christian websites too much!!!!
He probably has the tiniest penis in the world and no one would want him anyway!!!!!
I find this tragically hilarious.
A kid who’s songs are all sexualised the whole baby thing, seems to have NO idea about relationships or sexuality and for. 16 year old he might want to start learning.
My bf is canadian and always apologises for him haha.
People please don’t worry about this brat who is a total record label puppet, he once through a hissy fit because he failed his driving test
That’s how lame this kid is and will end up a used up shell.
Mike, I think you’ll find that in fact quite a lot of people do indeed seem to want him.
His current girlfriend got death threats because other people want him so much.
People are taking this way to seriously.. He did not answer it wrong and he never said being gay is bad or wrong, Also you have to remember he is just a kid. AND WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS MAGAZINE that they are asking this kid such adult questions??
@Ibelieve: “If you read the Bible, you will see that God did not create us to be with the same sex…”
Why would I choose read politically cherry-picked passages from a collection of extensively redacted tomes whose original authorship cannot be verified?
YESSSSS. seriously, Justin. GOD BLESS YOU!
What is he doing in Rolling Stone????????????????????????????????????????? It must be lonely in that deep dark closet! Would someone please show him a way out? Of course he will have to wait until he is a grown up.
Doesn’t Leviticus also condone putting people to death for trimming their hair and/or beards? So Bieber’s famous hairdo is a blasphemy!
And they always seem to stop when quoting Romans right before they get to the part about THEMSELVES:
Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
“If you read the Bible, you will see that God did not create us to be with the same sex. Romans 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” and God says, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable” (Leviticus 18:22) and “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads”
. . . . . . . . .
Ibelieve when you quote the following . . .
“They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads”
Are you arguing that Christians should kill gay people.
Rolling Stone was wrong to ask him these questions in the first place and have now admitted that they misquoted him as well.
For a 14y old deeply religious kid his views really aren’t that bad. He’s anti-abortion (fair enough), His comment of abortion and rape was misquoted (in short, he said he wouldn’t know what to say on the matter) and his view on homosexuality is that it’s doesn’t bothered him, and it shouldn’t bother anyone else (that’s the way I read it).
Great piece of journalism Pinknews! misconstruing a teenagers words, based on a flawed and misquoted article. You can be proud!
Oh, so that was it! I thought something was wrong, because Bieber never had ill intentions regarding other people. I’m not his fan, but I see he is well-meaning.
People really need to think about respect! Especially journalists.
I’m disgusted to find some of the comments here from some queens perving over a 15 year old, vile.
Note the religious talk from “I believe”
He’d have been great in the middle ages, believing he could turn things into gold, the earth was flat etc.
When you see/hear those two words I beleive, juist translate them in your own mind to
“Ignorance is bliss”
Or as someone once said during the french revolution…………
Mankind will be free only when the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest.
No wonder our society is so messed up.
I’d like to know at what age he chose to be straight.
And, as he’s not a woman, his opinion on abortion means nothing.
Brendan, which do you find more disturbing: the fact that people find him attractive, or the fact that people want him dead?
He’s 16; that’s the age of consent over here, therefore we’re legally allowed to find him attractive.
Bieber’s probably been reading too much of the bible. It even says in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 that a woman who’s been raped has to marry her rapist!
@Ibuleve:” One day (as the Bible states) every eye will see Him. And I can’t wait!!!”
We can’t wait for you to see him either. Lets pray its sometime soon!
@Joe I can’t believe I’m dignifying you with a response but your comments were directed at me. I know I’ll regret this but here goes. And sorry, this is off the Bieber topic but I’ve commented on that already.
I initially gave you the benefit of the doubt with the conclusion you had drawn, based on your experience, that for you there was “an element of choice”. Now that you’re going down the Celibacy line, I have my doubts about you even being gay at all.
Unlike you (part of the 0.01% referred to by Will) the majority of us know that choice played no role in this aspect of our lives. I know this because as I was illustrating with my experience, life is so hard when you’re attempting to believe others, like you, who claim it is a choice and you thus try to choose not to be gay. This is impossible.
Why suicide you ask? I woke up every morning hoping I’d wake up and be ‘normal’ but no amount of praying or faith in god was going to change me – and I tried until I was 32 to live up to other people’s expectations. I was lonely and conflicted, being told from all angles how much of a bad person I was, particularly since if I had enough faith I apparently could change, so they said. I concluded that I either had to live that hell forever denying who I was (which I could no longer do, thus suicide looked appealing) or I had to give up religion and with it ALL my friends and family – the only life I’d known. It was difficult but I chose the latter. That was my only choice in the matter.
I’m really happy now, with a partner and a whole new set of friends who recognise that we’re born this way, it’s at the core of you and isn’t a ‘series of actions’ as you think. My only regret is not ‘choosing’ to leave such an environment sooner.
And no, I don’t need to believe, I know I am, and if you don’t realise that then I’m with Spanner and reiterate that I don’t think you’re gay at all, and that you’re possibly another god-botherer posing as a gay person.
A very young person with a very limited life experience.
Not a Mozart and not a Beethoven! Soon to be forgotten on the pop flop long list!
The first I knew about this person was a very young girl spoke to me on the bus and said “You can be my friend as long as you like Justin Bieber” I just laughed and asked if this ‘Justin’ was her boyfriend? LOL At least Pink News educates me about things I would never research, read about, view or know about!
I think he may possibly be a castrato
I am calling the Pink Paper out as a HYPOCRITE and a BULLY for deliberately twisting the anodyne, if ill-phrased remarks of a 16-year-old in order to manufacture a ridiculous “story.” Shame on you.
there is nothing in the interviews even hinting at anything he said about homosexuality … Pink News was just using it’s poorly written article to hint at it solely to use as link bait for more clicks. Pink News is an embarrassment to the gay community.
What a great rep for we Canadians ! He should shut up til he`s old enough to vote and then some…. “Rape babies happen for a reason ” —- yessir, I definitely “chose” to be gay and fight for my rights everyday ! Give me a break . Bieber !!!
@Oscar I know the legal age of consent here, i’m a londoner born and bred. There is no need for the stereotype older gay man preying on the chicken. On another note, i’m a gay christian and I do not see why some people here are making personal attacks on the lad and anti christian sentiments. We are all God’s children.
“An immature 16 year old (any 16 year old) who has influence over hundreds of thousands of young minds should stick with the what he (supposedly) knows best, music.”
Then music journalists who should know better ought not to ask a 16 year old in that position such questions. How would you have responded to questions on political hot potatoes at that age? Bieber isn’t to blame. He’s a kid in an adult world and those who should be managing him properly aren’t.
How ‘mature’ of everyone on here to spout such vitriol. Maybe you should wait outside the gates of your local comprehensive and start asking the kids what they think about abortion, homosexuality and the role of women in society. You won’t find their views much different. Opinions develop with maturity. Or at least I thought until I read some of those on here.
Sounds to me like he’s got a lot of growing up to do. How can a teenage BOY possibly think he’s qualified to make judgment calls like this? He obviously isn’t grown up enough to put himself in someone else’s shoes & think about things from any viewpoint other than from inside his own little selfish, immature box.
Valksy, I was looking for a “Like” button, for your comment. Well said!
Axe & Flapjack, I agree with both of you, too!
I believe: Who cares what you believe! Certainly no one here. Go troll somewhere else, or does this subject just interest you a bit too much?
Poor Justin. Someday, when he has grown up a little bit more and broadened his mind some more, he’s going to feel embarassed by his ignorance at this point in life. I really don’t believe that he will be this dense indefinately.
I’m gay and you are twisting what he said. You are reading into it. I think you are misleading people with your title. Get a real story.
Well said, James!
In fact, he wasn’t against gay people at all. He doesn’t know that homosexuality isn’t a choice, but that doesn’t make him an idiot. Yet many commenters fail to see that… sad.
In fact, I predict that some public relations person will point out to him the potential damage to his popularity and you will see a back-tracking, possibly well intentioned within a few days. I’m sure he didn’t realize that he was being sandbagged. I predict appology.
Well what can a christian kid say?
That’s what happenz when you follow a child with religious parents. A little prick surrounded by bigots.
I wish that Justin Bieber was aborted.
Ah, I see my error now!
One day I plan to read news items line by line and not scan them the same way I blagged my A-level English literature coursework (read first 10 pages of novel, two in the middle, the last page and the plot synopsis on the back cover!)
In fairness most of you are right, he didn’t phrase what he said quite quite as categorically as it appears in the headline. He said “It’s everyone’s own decision to do that. It doesn’t affect me and shouldn’t affect anyone else.”
Whilst it’s implied that he thinks of it as a choice, the response isn’t framed in a fundamentalist context of “you chose to be gay, therefore you can snap out of it whenever you like and I strongly suggest that you do”, it’s more like “it’s everyone’s personal choice and none of my business”.
What I get from that is live and let live.
Sure you can take issue with his views on abortion, but in fairness I don’t think I would have had a thoroughly thought through stock response if someone had asked me for that kind of soundbite when I was 16.
Still don’t think much of his music though.
And I still don’t look to Justin Beiber for moral guidance.
the gay comment by justin doesnt bother me, water off a ducks’ back n all that! but don’t beat him up over his AGE, i was 14 when i first acted upon my gayness, my parents taught me to be who i am, and to love everyone, it got me into a LOT of trouble thru the years, because some people are nasty, bigoted people, but u live n learn eh? what really gets my goat is the rape comment – absolutely sickening! someone SOMEWHERE should tell him he needs to amend his TOTALLY WRONG VIEW. i was raped at age 21, luckily, being a gay man, there was no child as a result, only a decade of hurt. ABORTION IS THE CHOICE PEOPLE!, THE WOMANS CHOICE!!! religion is also a choice, but thats not for me to get into, but the thing that pisses me off most is all of you bitching about him being a child!! thats an insult to all those of his age or younger who know who they are and love who they love, hate him for his music for gods’ sake (natch)… shame on rolling stone (a crap mag that had its day a millenia ago) and to a similar extent, pink news for feeling hurt by some words, that if you actually read, are quite underdeveloped. and btw, to the t**t “ibelieve” move along you simpleton.
84 comments on an attack on a fellow gay man and 148 comments on this embryo who balls havent dropped.
I feel ashamed
I’ve long sensed that you feel ashamed (of yourself), hence why you keep trying to play the ‘victims’ champion’. It’s not really for you to dictate what people decide to comment on, is it? After all, what discussion is there to be had on someone who has been attacked? We all disagreed with it, said a bit more needs to be done by the police, people should report crimes….and that’s essentially all we can do. What YOU wanted was for us to empty the skeletons from our closets about every last semblance of a homophobic incident that we’ve ever come across. Then, squeeze them to eek out all the victim potential we could to fluff up a climate of fear and paranoia so that you feel at home on this forum. We don’t all live in your world of paranoia and, thus, we move on to new topics.
This one is interesting as it throws up several aspects: how old one should be to be able to make such comments, how much his religion has played in his views, the ethics of Rolling Stone asking him such questions, his ability to influence and persuade and an assessment of the views of the young.
Sorry it’s not ‘victim-centric’ enough for you, but that’s because there are too many rational minds taking it on. Take your sanctimonious, holier-than-thou ego and be hysterical on another thread.
To some extent homosexuality is a choice, for some. What about those who decide/ choose to leave a 20year marriage after having kids, and shack up with a same sex partner? that is a CHOICE. The people in the wrong are the interviewers , not sort of questions that should be asked a kiddies idol, Just leave the kid alone, he is just a nice wholesome 16year old.
He’s only 16, been brought up hardline christian by the sounds of it, his parents still effectively provide his views. My views on things have radically changed since I fled the nest and now no longer mirror my parents’ Catholic attitudes. He’s not used the best choice of words, but I wouldn’t brandish him homophobic, just a little misguided. He’ll grow up sometime :-)
God chose not to give him a brain for a reason too then?
for those who dont know we’re ignoring it
OMG, another one! Susan, not a choice. Even in your example, so many scenario’s could be in play but I’m guessing this potential 37+ year old male/female, weren’t strictly straight back when (early as the 90′s), for whatever reason, they got married to an opposite sex partner. And if we’re talking female, studies indicate an amount of fluidity regarding sexuality throughout life. But I restate, not a choice. It was there all along for that person.
A definit case of ‘Foot in Mouth’ disease; Justin should engage brain before opening his mouth…
…Sorry, I forgot inanimate objects don’t have brains!
I keep hearing about ‘Lifestyle Choices’ and ‘Gay Agenda’ from the likes of other media threads.
I’ve looked everywhere, anyone know where I can find these magazines?
Gew : “And, as he’s not a woman, his opinion on abortion means nothing.”
Ah right. So women can get pregnant through immaculate conception these days? Because men are “only” the Fathers, they cannot have an opinion on abortion because they only fathered the child and dont have to carry it?
Po-faced feminist fcukwits like you should start looking at what men give to you before treating us like some accessory.
Shut up Bieber. go back to the sandpit and make castles.
You’re not old enough to understand this yet in your current prepubescent state.
Why would they ask these questions? Is he running for office?
Am sorry i dont really think what he said about being gay is bad as he did not say any thing at all really.
The rape thing well interesting SOOOOOO if some one raped him he would accept it as happening for a reason i think not
“I was wondering if you thought that . .
Heterosexuality was series of actions and not a state of being.?”
Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Everyone is a pot of potential.
I feel very sorry for the shrill members of our community who claim that I am “not gay” – despite having a boyfriend, having only gay sex and only falling in love with members of my own sex. I didn’t realise that, far from being a sexual preference, gay was a club in which everyone had to share the same beliefs…
@ Axe – You clearly have issues. At no point have I said that anyone should choose not to be gay, or even try. I just do not happen to believe that I or anyone was born either gay or straight, which are cultural terms not genetic. It seems to me that those who believe that a homosexual preference is something which we are born with are no better than those religious who believe in predestination; life is a series of evolving self-realizations – and the self is something created by situation, environment, culture and desire.
I am quite happy for you to disagree. But when you shrilly shout that I am not gay because my opinions are not yours, then you can go do something rude to yourself.
See if only you’d have read ‘Gay Agenda’ you know that it’s all about us Gays bringing down governments, corrupting societies, making everyone Gay and bringing on the end of the world and all in just one lunchtime….. apparently!
“I am sorry that you and others are so fundamentalist about this. All I hear when you speak is special pleading and weakness. It’s like you NEED to believe you were “born this way” because otherwise you couldn’t stand the fact you do the gay.
Gay is a series of actions and not a state of being.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Joe why are you being so fundamentalist about this, there is also a plethorary of research which points to the genetic, neurological as well as biological basis for homosexuality.
In your argument, you seem to imply that you have resloved the Nature-Nurture debate . . . How come?
See now I’ve always known this is the way I was born. It’s not even a belief it just is.
You have to remember we are under the constant attack from churches that Gay people are to be treated like children. Even at 50 a Gay man to them seems not able to make up our own minds.
It stems from all this ‘how could you choose to be Gay’ and ‘you must have been taught it’.
My parents are/were religious but like I suspect many parents of Gay people get angry that the finger points to them. Like Gay people are not allow to think for ourselves. It’s a total insult.
The way we are is part of our development from the womb it’s just that even then we are divided by those who feel that religion somehow dominates superiorty over the way we are born. We not even given a chance, so instead we are told we are an abomination.
I guess thats what they call love.
Accepting oneselves is knowing this has been from our very beginning. The seed grows from the womb, the way I am grew with them.
Po-faced feminist fcukwits like you should start looking at what men give to you before treating us like some accessory……LMAO here. I couldn’t have phrased it better myself.
What I don’t understand is why all of you feel the need to put down a 16 year old KID. He was asked questions that no 16yo should be forced to answer. Yes his beliefs are probably what his parents taought him. But these questions never would have been asked to any other teen pop star. They are unfair to hin and u guys are being totaly unfair to his fan base yes they are 5 to 18 year old girls but let us not forget all of the boybands, teen pop stars and rock groups that girls have idolized over the years and alduts in those days thought we were all just as stupid for worshiping them. I would rather have my daughter idolize him than someone like Britney Spears. Everyone is entitled to their opinion eventhough I don’tr agree totally with what he said he still has the right to say it just as u have the right to feel the way u do about what he said.
finally somebody else agrees with the fact that all rape victims diserve what they get and that they diserve to be forced into spending the remainder of their lives reliving the same moment repeatably, as they stare into the bastard eyes of their unwanted child. I for one dont believe this, but then again I’m not a fanatic over a religion that has both held back the development of the planet by seperating and alienating the rest of the globe, whilst also refering to both women and non white people as second rate citizans, also why do people take the bible literally (come on people its a book that has suppost to have been around for 2 thousand years, in which time you are all placing your faith upon passages which could and lets face it WOULD have been changed by the white ruling class as a tool for keeping people in line). if you dont believe what i have said then sit back and think why most of you would believe that jesus was a white man, although that would probably be a more accurate reason for his crusifiction as he would have been the only white man in the whole middle east.
“Joe why are you being so fundamentalist about this, there is also a plethorary of research which points to the genetic, neurological as well as biological basis for homosexuality. ”
There has been no definitive research which has proven this question. It is an open debate and I simply know where I stand on it. What I don’t appreciate is being told, by people who cry “nature” because they would feel too ashamed to be gay by choice (god forbid!), that I am not gay because I disagree with the little story they have been telling themselves about their life.
All of this is debatable and science is nowhere near providing an answer (probably because there isn’t one).
“See now I’ve always known this is the way I was born.”
You can’t possibly “know” that. You can only feel, intuit, believe it. By the time someone has come to consciousness of homosexual feelings, gone with them as a way of expressing their sexuality (remember, many who later identify as heterosexuals have homosexual feelings/attractions in childhood &youth) and identified as “gay” (because this is a social label that seems to fit), you are not in any position to be able to definitively say that you were “born this way”. There’s simply no way you can know. And, put frankly, it seems nonsense to believe that anyone can have been born with a sexual orientation. It’s like saying someone is born attracted to redheads or liable to enjoy certain forms of music.
“You have to remember we are under the constant attack from churches that Gay people are to be treated like children.”
What churches say is neither here nor there; I have no interest in engaging with this debate in terms of what plays well to homophobic ears. I am interested in my Truth, not the truth that will sell best to Churches, politicians or society at large.
Just a pretty face if even that and nothing more…
“There has been no definitive research which has proven this question. It is an open debate and I simply know where I stand on it. What I don’t appreciate is being told, by people who cry “nature” because they would feel too ashamed to be gay by choice (god forbid!), that I am not gay because I disagree with the little story they have been telling themselves about their life.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Joe aaying you take the nurture debate, in light of evidence which also points to nature . . . I find a little odd, as you say your self the Nautre-Nurture debate had not been resolved. Howver over the last ten years there is more convicning evidence from the nature side of the debate, than can be found in the nuture side if the debate.
I have on word
Monozygotic twin studies
Joe saying that you take the nurture debate, in light of evidence which also points to nature . . . I find a little odd.
As you say your self the Nautre-Nurture debate has not been resolved. However over the last ten years there is more convicning evidence from the nature side of the debate, than can be found in the nuture side if the debate.
I have one word
How stupid to ask a child such grown up questions.
Why are we asking children with very little life experience their views on these topics and acting like they matter?
i agree with matt. he’s a kid! this is sensationalist journalism at its worst.
“Monozygotic twin studies” – the concordance rate in these studies is not 100%, so these studies prove little. Twins may well have very similar environmental conditions, or may make choices/prefer things in cahoots with each other. The twins studies do not offer solid scientific evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality.
Btw, I do not think that homosexuality or hetrosexuality is “nurtured” – it is created as an emotional/behavioural taste/habit/preference by subject’s traumatic interaction with moments of desire.
Joe thanks for your response to my question
“Monozygotic twin studies?”
Your response highlights three things:
1.You do not understand the significance of monozygotic twin studies
2.You do not understand the progress of scientific research
3.You do not understand the gold stand of proving a genetic basis for behaviour.
. . . . . . . . . .
“Monozygotic twin studies” – the concordance rate in these studies is not 100%, so these studies prove little.
When does scientific research ever reach 100% proof level on any thing?
. . . . . . . . . .
Twins may well have very similar environmental conditions, or may make choices/prefer things in cahoots with each other.
Studies based on monozygotic twins which were separated at birth, and then brought up in different environments; tends to refute this idea. For example twins show exact preferences, despite being reared under different conditions
The twins studies do not offer solid scientific evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality.
Monozygotic twins come from the same egg, so share identical genetic material. This is why studies in this area are the gold stand for making claims about the genetic basis of behavior, it is odd that you think it is not?
Joe . . . what “Sceintific” research evidence points to your “traumatic interaction” – nurture theory of homosexuality.
@Joe — “Personally, I don’t believe that anybody is born gay”
1. Why ?
This article has 175 comments too many.
“There has been no definitive research which has proven this question. It is an open debate and I simply know where I stand on it.”
Wrong. There’s plenty. But that won’t chnage your mind, will it? You seem desperate to believe you had a choice in it. Good for you.
“You can’t possibly “know” that”
You moron, of course you can!
“I am interested in my Truth, not the truth that will sell best to Churches, politicians or society at large”
Interesting you capitalise the word “truth”. Like most religious do, when they refer to god’s “Truth”. Wonder why that is?
Just spotted this gem by Joe:-
“Btw, I do not think that homosexuality or hetrosexuality is “nurtured” – it is created as an emotional/behavioural taste/habit/preference by subject’s traumatic interaction with moments of desire.”
Traumatic interaction? WTF? Care to share some science on this rubbish statement?
Folks, Joe is clearly a troll. Being gay is now the result of “dramatic interaction”. Sound familiar? Its straight form a NARTH “research” piece “Homosexuality and American Public Life”. All of which is utter nonsense, of course.
Pity his nonsense isn’t very scientific, is it? He’ll come back with a bible quote next.
Will, I agree . . .
This is almost certainly NARTH Science
We are looking forward to learning more about the “empirical”, scientific evidence for your . . . “Trauma theory”
This is a 16 year old who speaking naturally and I would say supportively about homosexuality.
Over-interpreting his words, holding him to a standard of vernacular exactitude which often escapes even the most experienced politicians, is counter-productive. It stinks of excessive political correctness which gives those of us seeking equality a bad name. It’s a shame Pink News decided to take this angle; I would have expected less opportunism in its editorial standards.
Agreed Will, all that Gay people can’t think for themselves someone else must have done it to them.
Hey, maybe Joe has the Magazines I’ve been looking for….
“Over-interpreting his words, holding him to a standard of vernacular exactitude which often escapes even the most experienced politicians, is counter-productive”
. . . . . . . . . . . .
Words do not exist in a vaccum
If you play the public arena, no one should escape being accountable for their pronoucements.
Public is political!
Of course, I must be a troll because I don’t agree with some of the posters here. My position is pretty common in postmodern circles – try reading Foucault, Deleuze, Butler. The subject is non-consistent and is formed through its creative processing of its encounters with the world and with desire. Desire must always be traumatic. Self is a means to dealing with this trauma. Trauma is a positive event.
Will, I realise that you are very hurt and angry but could you try not to be so shrill when you encounter someone who does not, shock-horror, agree with you.
On the case of the Homosexual Agenda, I am inclined to a certain agreement with Lee Edelmen, whose book No Future: Queer Theory and the Death Drive posits that queers should agree to align themselves with that which appears a fright to family values (some areas of Edelman’s book are problematic but the gist makes great sense).
But of course Will, I MUST be a religious nut, reading all this queer and postmodern theory and all that!
“Its straight form a NARTH “research” piece “Homosexuality and American Public Life”. ”
I have no idea what NARTH is, Will – but I might have guess you were American.
JohnK – the evidence re twins at, for example, http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html is very undecided, so I am surprised to see you talking as if the question has been thoroughly solved by this contentious area of study. I note that you don’t point to any actual studies in your posts…
He’s a kid.
Perhaps I should been a little more clear. When I asked why ? what I meant was:
1. Why do you believe no one is born gay ?
I’m assuming that you have a reason for your belief, and it isn’t just a feeling.
Can someone please point out where he explicitly says that being gay is a decision? Because I cant see it. Stop twisting his words.
“1. Why do you believe no one is born gay ?
I’m assuming that you have a reason for your belief, and it isn’t just a feeling.”
The reason is that sexuality is something which not the same in all cultures; many cultures have had much more fluid, or indeed a much more rigid, sexual mores than ours. The whole idea of sexual preference is a modern one. I don’t see how, also, something like sexuality could be hard-wired genetically. The idea that someone is born gay seems a perfectly unscientific idea – a kind of version of predestination. Sexuality is so complex but, because socially we are forced to identify one way or the other (perhaps some are allowed to be bi or asexual, but look how they are socially ostracised) – all evidence points much more to a process of self-definition.
@Joe — “The reason is that sexuality is something which not the same in all cultures.”
It is no doubt true that some cultures have different levels of acceptance of sexual behaviour.
2. How does this support your contention that no one is born gay ?
“I don’t see how, also, something like sexuality could be hard-wired genetically.”
3. Do you see that heterosexuality might be hard-wired genetically ?
“The idea that someone is born gay seems a perfectly unscientific idea.”
4. How would you test your hypothesis ?
@Joe . . . all you seem to be presenting as evidence for your Trauma theory, is philosophical discourse; where is your scientific evidence ?
@Joe . . . are you arguing that psychoanalysis (Re – Queer theory – Re – Butler) is scientific fact on the matter of sexuality?
“It is no doubt true that some cultures have different levels of acceptance of sexual behaviour.” -It’s not just about acceptance, it is about occurrence. In classical Greece, homosexuality was something most aristocratic men would engage with at some point in their lives.
“Do you see that heterosexuality might be hard-wired genetically ?”
I don’t see how it can be. I can see how a sex drive is, but the object(s) of that drive, no.
“How would you test your hypothesis ?”
Don’t really care, to be honest. I don’t know why anyone has an issue with homosexuality as a phenomena which means that they need to discover causes. I don’t think we’ll ever really know, but we all as individuals can believe one story or another. I find the desire to scientifically prove sexuality as one thing or another quite ideological – just accept the sexuality that people exhibit. We don’t need to apologise for homosexuality whether it is genetic or developed.
@Joe . . . you say you are not a religious fundamentalist.
Joe tell me what is the difference between the self-referential nature of Fundamentalist Christianity, and the self-referential nature of psychoanalysis.
Joe, it appears to be that both are peddling the following:
1. Unproven theories
2.Theoreis that cannot be
subjected to scientific enquiry
3. Theories that cannot be refuted.
JohnK – postmodern philosophy suggests that there are limits to science; too much rationalism is the curse of the enlightenment (and, itself, a form of madness).
Since science if the gold standard by which knowledge develops . .
We are still waiting for the empirical evidence for your Trauma theory!
. . . are you saying that you would prefer it if a philiosopher was in charge of a randomised control trail for a new cancer drug, rather than a medical scientist
@Johnk -”peddling” where is the scientific proof that I am peddling anything? I am stating a view I hold, as do many other postmodernists. You seem to think that no one should have a view unless they can prove it on a petri-dish. You (and Will) seem to have difficulty in respecting other modes of looking at the world. I am happy for you to believe in half-baked scienfitic theories if you must; I am also happy to believe in philosophical or psychological narratives.
I think you’d better hope that there never is a proven scientific basis to homosexuality – the practical solution will simply be to abort gays…
@Joe — It seems odd to go to the trouble of making a statement of belief, and then offering no reason for why you hold that belief ! Personal incredulity doesn’t persuade many other people.
“We don’t need to apologise for homosexuality whether it is genetic or developed.”
Absolutely ! I agree totally.
“You (and Will) seem to have difficulty in respecting other modes of looking at the world. I am happy for you to believe in half-baked scienfitic theories if you must; I am also happy to believe in philosophical or psychological narratives.”
This is a little bit rich coming from some one who cannot present any scientific evidence for his Trauma theory.
Science is not a gold standard by which morals, ethics, creativity and love develop, JohnK. Sorry to disappoint you.
“. . . are you saying that you would prefer it if a philiosopher was in charge of a randomised control trail for a new cancer drug, rather than a medical scientist” – so, you think homosexuality analogous to cancer? I think it is you has the issue here. Illnesses of the body are of course best dealt with by medicine. I might be odd but I don’t happen to class homosexuality or any sexual expression as an illness. Sad to read that you do.
Joe . . . when comes to matters of medical science and sexology, I think must people would want to trust science; not unproven self-referential arguemnts, no matter how eloquent philosophically there are.
Joe, Philiosophers do not find cures for cancer.
’..everything happens for a reason..’ Well *that’s ******* comforting to know, as you’re sprinting up Shoreditch High Street in a patent slingback with a pack of ‘homophobic hyenas’ snapping at your heels. I shall remember that.
JohnK – so you, again, think homosexuality is akin to cancer. The Sexology you describe – applied to humans – it a pseudoscience, as opposed to medicine and biology which has real value in the field of health. Do you think that homosexuality is a public health issue?
Joe . . . do you not think that you are playing into the hands of the Fundamentalist Christians, and reparative therapists; when you making unfounded statements that homosexuality is based on earliy trauma.
Joe, do you not think that the majority of so called Gay cures, are built on this rhetoric; I call it this becasue you have not presnted even any half-baked scientific proof to back up your claim
This kid doesn’t know what Germany is, to be fair… Lets send him to North Korea!
@ Tony : Quote “It’s everyone’s own decision to do that.” Surprised you missed that bit ……
@Joe — “postmodern philosophy suggests that there are limits to science; too much rationalism is the curse of the enlightenment”
5. What does “limits to science” actually mean ? There are somethings we can’t discover ? There are somethings we shouldn’t discover ?
6. On what basis should we take postmodern philosophy seriously ? What has it actually done to improve the human condition ?
“You seem to think that no one should have a view unless they can prove it on a petri-dish.”
But if you can’t explain the reason for holding a view, then you might not be taken seriously.
“You (and Will) seem to have difficulty in respecting other modes of looking at the world.”
On the contrary. They are taking you seriously by engaging in debate with you. You’re not making it easy because all you’re doing is saying I believe …
“I am happy for you to believe in half-baked scienfitic theories if you must”
And presumably you’re happy to make use of the results of science — electricity, water purification.
“I am also happy to believe in philosophical or psychological narratives.”
7. Sure, but why do you entertain such narratives ?
“I think you’d better hope that there never is a proven scientific basis to homosexuality – the practical solution will simply be to abort gays…”
That makes it sound as though you think gay people are bad.
X. Do you believe gay people are bad ?
“Joe . . . do you not think that you are playing into the hands of the Fundamentalist Christians, and reparative therapists; when you making unfounded statements that homosexuality is based on earliy trauma.”
JohnK – I think I have already said, I am not interested in how arguments “play” with the opposing side. Are you saying that you ONLY believe in a genetic basis for homosexuality BECAUSE it is an argument that can defeat the right?
Joe . . . I prefer to stick to the argument concerning the nature-nurture debate, with regards homosexuality.
So to date . . . it appears that what you are saying is that, when you take the nurture argument about homosexuality, you do this from a philosophical postion; not a scientific position.
“On what basis should we take postmodern philosophy seriously ? What has it actually done to improve the human condition ?”
It can inspire new forms of being and thought, and so innovate. See Deleuze on Lines of Flight.
“And presumably you’re happy to make use of the results of science — electricity, water purification.”
They are not half-baked. I didn’t say all scientific theories were half-baked, I said theories of genetic homosexuality are.
“That makes it sound as though you think gay people are bad.
X. Do you believe gay people are bad ?”
Oh ffs Harry I thought you were intelligent! It is obvious from the context that I am responding to what those who dislike homosexuality might do to a child deemed to be gay in the womb. I am tired of repeating that I personally see nothing whatsoever questionable in homosexuality.
Are you saying that you ONLY believe in a genetic basis for homosexuality BECAUSE it is an argument that can defeat the right?
. . . . . .
I do not – “believe” – in genetic theory for homosexulality
I am only interested in good scientific evidence, not personal beliefs
@Joe : “Plenty of people throughout history have chosen to be celibate.” [therefore you can choose not to be a practising homosexual - my additon for the sake of context]
You’ve hit the nail on the head there. People have chosen it. Why? Because their natural inclinations come into conflict with their choices as to how they perceive (or are told to perceive) the world. A straight priest, for example, puts aside his natural sexual inclinations because his church says to do otherwise is impure. A gay man might force himself to marry a woman, because his religion or society says to do otherwise is impure. But the fact remains that their respective natural inclinations are, and always will be, undeniably a part of them.
You are confusing actions and mentality. You can choose to act on your impulses but you can’t choose your impulses. When we say we’re born gay that’s what we mean, regardless of whether those impulses are detectable from birth or crystalise at puberty. They are what they are and you have no conscious influence over them.
In our society, we no longer have to suppress our natural inclinations because of ancient dogmatic nonsense even if certain groups of people would rather we did and point out our ability to do so
(however damaging it is to the person) as evidence of “choice”.
Choice of action is not the same as choice of orientation, and I don’t see why we should exercise our choice of action to stiffle our inherent orientation at the behest of people who dislike it.
The only choice anyone ever has is whether to embrace who they are and be happy, or deny it and be miserable.
@Joe – there’s no respect directed for idiots and homophobes, you also seem to be uninterested in listening to LBG folk about stuff anyway so are you one of the idiot homophobes?
“So to date . . . it appears that what you are saying is that, when you take the nurture argument about homosexuality, you do this from a philosophical postion; not a scientific position.”
Nurture is not a nuance-enough word. Homosexuality is a creative response in an individual’s life (as is heterosexuality/bisexuality/asexuality). Yes, I do this from a philosophical position (have I said otherwise? you are the one raving about science) but also as a response to my own experience. There is no convincing scientific position that any study has yet offered which proves a genetic basis for sexual preference, and it’s no good you’re pretending there is. If one were to appear, I would happily admit I am wrong (but it won’t).
Joe . . . you keep using this word belief
. . . rather than scientific evidence or philosophical argument . . .
I associate beliefs with religion rather not science, or philosophy with it’s rigourous tradition of logic
“here’s no respect directed for idiots and homophobes, you also seem to be uninterested in listening to LBG folk about stuff anyway so are you one of the idiot homophobes?”
Ffs, I am an “LGB” folk.
Sven I don’t believe that orientation is genetic, sorry. There was a point when I noticed I liked men and that fitted with various other factors, and so I went with it. No reason I shouldn’t have. No in-born genetics involved.
@Joe . . . you keep using this word belief
I associate beliefs with religion not science, or philosophy with it’s rigourous tradition of logic
“I associate beliefs with religion rather not science, or philosophy with it’s rigourous tradition of logic”
You have attacked me for not ascribing to a genetic basis for homosexuality, which has not been proven. I assume you believe in such an unproven thesis? As for logic, there is nothing whatsoever logical about thinking homosexuality is genetic, that anyone is “born that way”. That flies in the face of all logic.
Im sorry this debate about nature or nurture is so uninformed at times. Any first year psychologist or evolutionary biologist will tell you it is the interaction between nature and nurture, the individual and the environment, genes and external stimuli, that cause us to be the way we are. You cannot separate the two. They are both needed.
@Joe — I presume you don’t have an answer to my fifth question then.
Look, you live your life as you will. But if you’re making statements and not backing them up, you’re not going to be taken seriously. That’s how life works. You must realize this, and using vague forumlaic phrases doesn’t convince. Nor does picking an undergraduate thesis convince people to overturn masses of other scientific research, in peer reviewed journals !
I am arguing that you present scientific evidence for your . . .
“Trauma theory of homosexuality
Interestingly, neither have you presented a logical philosophical argument for this theory.
“Im sorry this debate about nature or nurture is so uninformed at times. Any first year psychologist or evolutionary biologist will tell you it is the interaction between nature and nurture, the individual and the environment, genes and external stimuli, that cause us to be the way we are. You cannot separate the two. They are both needed.”
This interaction is complex which is why the rigour of science, not personal beliefs is needed
@Joe — “I don’t believe that orientation is genetic …”
@Joe — “No in-born genetics involved.”
How do you know ?
“You have attacked me for not ascribing to a genetic basis for homosexuality, which has not been proven.”
I am arguing that your propostions appear to be based on “Beliefs” rather than scientific evidence or philosophical logic.
Joe is right.
I didn’t believe that stupidity and ignorance were genetic but Joe has just proven it.
Well done Joe.
You have proven the link.
Now go and educate yourself.
“This interaction is complex which is why the rigour of science, not personal beliefs is needed”
I agree; however it is a false dichotomy for people to say it must be either nature or nurture.
Also; the whole postmodern identity thing is very limited in explaining sexuality. It is true sexuality is a spectrum, however the postmodernist approach offers no evidence beyond personal reflection, which is not a sufficient basis for an argument.
this will def, bring down his success.
@Joe — “You have attacked me for not ascribing to a genetic basis for homosexuality, which has not been proven. I assume you believe in such an unproven thesis? As for logic, there is nothing whatsoever logical about thinking homosexuality is genetic, that anyone is “born that way”. That flies in the face of all logic.”
But the research quoted in the undergraduate thesis you mentioned, certainly suggests there is a genetic basic to homosexuality. Of course, as Scott points out, genes are rarely responsible for all outcomes.
You can’t just decide all scientific truth from pure logic ! That’s only possible in mathematics. In other sciences, you need data, and logic can suggest a thousand mechanisms to explain those data. These are then tested and winnowed.
The idea that pure logic is sufficient went out with Aristotle.
@Joe — “… as a response to my own experience.”
Whilst dismissing other people’s experience !
“I am arguing that your propostions appear to be based on “Beliefs” rather than scientific evidence or philosophical logic.”
I never said that they were not based in beliefs. In this particular argument, beliefs are all anyone has gone at present.
“Now go and educate yourself.”
Where might I get this education? I note that people have called me “ignorant” and a “moron”. I don’t recognise that as educated language- rather as an emotional and abusive response. Fair enough, but don’t try to claim you’re something better, “Dr” Guthrie. I note that you don’t do a single thing to put your viewpoint.
“the whole postmodern identity thing is very limited in explaining sexuality. It is true sexuality is a spectrum, however the postmodernist approach offers no evidence beyond personal reflection, which is not a sufficient basis for an argument.”
Two things. One, postmodernism is based not merely on personal reflection, but on philosophical, historical and psychoanalytical study and speculation. Two, those that say they were “born this way” are doing precisely as you say, offering no evidence beyond personal reflection. Until one of you can point me to a peer-reviewed paper which proves that homosexuality is genetic, I will take raise my eyebrows at the idea.
“Whilst dismissing other people’s experience !”
Same as everyone else here, then, Harry. But their experience is almost always followed by the proviso, “this must be the case or else we’ve no argument against the religious right”. It is very ideologically and contingency -tinged experience.
@Joe — “If one were to appear, I would happily admit I am wrong (but it won’t).”
Incredible. Another belief ! No-go theorems do appear occasionally in science, but not often. Why do you believe that no scientific proof will ever be found that supports to your satisfaction that there is no genetic basis to homosexuality ?
I can think of two reasons. 1. You discount all evidence that doesn’t support your beliefs, 2. You have a magic box that predicts the future.
Why is this so important to you ?
“But the research quoted in the undergraduate thesis you mentioned, certainly suggests there is a genetic basic to homosexuality. Of course, as Scott points out, genes are rarely responsible for all outcomes.”
It suggests it to the suggestible.
Joe raises an interesting point though.
How about this as an explanation…
What if all species of animals survive only because they have a sexual drive? To my mind, a sexual drive is probably the most vital of all characteristics for any species (leaving aside the hunger and thirst drives which obviously have a place). That drive, then, must be hard coded in the genes, in order to ensure the survival of the species.
It is also obvious that ordinarily people’s sexual drives attach to one gender or the other or to both. People for the most part tend to define themselves one way or another for their entire lives, leaving aside for now people’s personal reasons for denying it for any period of time.
If it’s possible that the direction of a genetic sexual drive could be influenced by external factors, as Joe suggests, then in order to get people who identify one way or another for life the influence of those factors must become apparent at the stage when the sexual drive crystalises and not beyond it. Since the sexual drive itself is genetic, then the moment it crystalises (an unpredictable time around puberty usually) is beyond the control of the individual, so determining the balance of different influencing factors at that time would also be beyond his or her control.
So to my mind, even if the orientation of a person is not made up until the moment their sexuality kicks in, no one can predict which way it will swing or for what reason because no one can predict the timing or the experiences of the person to that point.
So (if my assumptions are right) even if Joe was right, to be able to claim sexual orientation was a result purely of environmental influences you would have to say having sexual impulses in the first place was somehow not rooted in genetics, which I don’t think anyone would entertain for a moment.
So I’d say even if you were right Joe, the sexual orientation of any individual would still be beyond their control and thus not a “choice”.
Interestingly, if that was how it worked it would explain why homosexuality wasn’t selected out of the gene pool whilst simultaneously dismissing the concept of “choice”.
Just a thought. I still think it’s purely genetic, but that’s only because of my personal experience.
“Incredible. Another belief ! No-go theorems do appear occasionally in science, but not often. Why do you believe that no scientific proof will ever be found that supports to your satisfaction that there is no genetic basis to homosexuality ?”
Because I don’t. But I may be wrong. Why do I have to submit to your authoritarian demand that I “keep an open mind and be seen to”.
“I can think of two reasons. 1. You discount all evidence that doesn’t support your beliefs, 2. You have a magic box that predicts the future.”
There is no sure evidence either way. But yes, of course I do have that box.
“Why is this so important to you ?”
Because I dislike seeing people limiting themselves to ideological explanations for their ways of being and using such explanations as comfort blankets. Especially when they get so angry at anyone who doesn’t wish to nestle under the same blanket.
@Joe — “Until one of you can point me to a peer-reviewed paper which proves that homosexuality is genetic, I will take raise my eyebrows at the idea.”
So … in the thesis you’ve drawn our attention to:
“The results of multivariate analyses suggested that “over half the variance in Adult Sexual Orientation was attributable to the additive effects of genes”
“Q. Why do you believe that no scientific proof will ever be found that supports to your satisfaction that there is no genetic basis to homosexuality ?”
“A. Because I don’t.”
Very good ! Well done you !
“If it’s possible that the direction of a genetic sexual drive could be influenced by external factors, as Joe suggests, then in order to get people who identify one way or another for life the influence of those factors must become apparent at the stage when the sexual drive crystalises and not beyond it. Since the sexual drive itself is genetic, then the moment it crystalises (an unpredictable time around puberty usually) is beyond the control of the individual, so determining the balance of different influencing factors at that time would also be beyond his or her control.”
Sven, I would be very happy to subscribe to this and much of the rest of your posts. But let me just say, I have never said that it is mere “environmental factors” that “cause” homosexuality: I have said that sexual orientation is a creative way of dealing with moments of desire. Desire is a kind of free-floating free radical and the encounter with it is always something which compels the self to re-define.
But I am not entirely convinced by the idea that, once set, desire cannot again break through self-definition. I know people who have defined themselves as straight or gay into their 40s and 50s and had that definition shattered by a new element of desire.
The self, I want to add, is not merely consciousness. Of course, no one makes a conscious choice to be gay or straight in the same way they choose to eat a cake or not or join a club. It is a creative solution by the entire, mostly-submerged self. Compare fetishes as a popularly known example of this in action.
Thank you in any case, Sven, for engaging in the debate without rancour (something I sometimes find difficult and clearly, so do many others).
There’s that word again – suggested. Harry, what are you trying to prove to me? That you think I am a fool? I am happy to be one.
@Joe — your contention is that homosexuality has no basis in genetics. You provided an undergraduate thesis to support your contention, but it doesn’t. You’re then forced to quibble on the word suggested.
That’s at least as good as your other argument, which you’ve not commented on:
I’m no Beiber fan, but what right does anyone have to call him stupid simply because they don’t agree with him?
I applaud the fact that he has his own mind and his own opinions when kids his age are usually conditioned and brainwashed into becoming liberal by society’s loudmouths and a biased media.
And shame on all you hypocrites who are lobbing insults at him. Your OPINION is no more right than anyone else’s and you’re no better than those you claim to so vehemently detest.
You mean the undergraduate thesis that reads that results are nothing more than “best considered tentative” – hardly a roaring endorsement.
As to your other comment, I thought you got a kick enough out of it without me having to tickle your fancy even more. You can have your wank on your own.
Joe – You’re views are offensive and shocking. Whilst I understand that it probably comforts you to think that everything is in your control and your own choice, it’s a naive and unrealistic idea. Nobody chooses their sexuality. Do you honestly believe that everyone is born a blank canvas and that their is no such thing as genes?! It might shock you to find this out but some things were not decided by you! You didn’t choose your hair color, your IQ, your athletic ability or your sexuality!
So no one has a set sexuality? It can change depending on the individual circumstances in which the person finds themselves? An interesting idea, but I find that even more difficult to believe than the idea that a sexuality is chosen. I say that because people have gone through hell to be true to who they perceive themselves to be, if there was even the remotest possibility that their preferences could change they would have changed it. People can be wrong though I suppose, and people can be happily bisexual, which would possibly account for your examples.
I would like to know where it all comes from though, if only out of academic interest. I have two theories about my own sexuality and it’d be interesting to see which was right.
I might just point out though that we at least agree that sexual orientation isn’t a choice, per se, which I think was the basis of this entire (increasingly acrimonious) exchange!
@ Sauvingnon –
” I’m no Beiber fan, but what right does anyone have to call him stupid simply because they don’t agree with him?”
The reason why we have a right to call him stupid is because he was asked about women’s rights and gay rights and said stupid answers. So therefore he’s stupid.
“kids his age are usually conditioned and brainwashed into becoming liberal by society’s loudmouths and a biased media.”
You mean instead of becoming conservative after being brainwashed and conditioned by a right wing fundamentalist christian mother.
“shame on all you hypocrites who are lobbing insults at him. ”
No. Shame on you for defending a stupid 16 year pop singer whose idiotic beliefs on life will infect an entire generation of young girls (and gay boys) who now think being gay is a choice, and that abortion is wrong.
@Joe — “best considered tentative”.
That’s not what suggested means, as well you know. Now you’re clutching at straws ! Remember, you used the thesis to support your contention, and it doesn’t ! You can’t really use it as evidence to counter my contention when it supports it. Did you actually read it ?
“You can have your wank on your own.”
‘Thank you in any case, Joe, for engaging in the debate without rancour.’
“As to your other comment, I thought you got a kick enough out of it without me having to tickle your fancy even more.”
Not really a comment though. Just illustrative of your debating skills. However I’m glad you liked also.
“Remember, you used the thesis to support your contention, and it doesn’t ! ”
No Harry, I used the thesis to show that the case was not proven; “best considered tentative” is a quote from one of the studies surveyed. As for rancour, I think I said that I cannot do so, which is why I commended Sven for it. You and I both know that the studies reported in the link I used were unconvincing and, yes, “best considered tentative”. When a report comes up which does rather more than “suggest”
a “tentative” answer on the basis of a very dodgily chosen sample (as those studies all do), then I will be happy to say that I can accept that homosexuality may or even is genetically determined.
“So no one has a set sexuality? It can change depending on the individual circumstances in which the person finds themselves? An interesting idea, but I find that even more difficult to believe than the idea that a sexuality is chosen.”
Well, as I think I said, chosen is probably the wrong word. “Created” is better.
“I say that because people have gone through hell to be true to who they perceive themselves to be, if there was even the remotest possibility that their preferences could change they would have changed it. People can be wrong though I suppose, and people can be happily bisexual, which would possibly account for your examples.”
I am not convinced by the argument that people’s sexuality must be a given because they would go through hell before they changed it. You only have to change sexuality for religion in that sentence to see that the same equally applies there, and no one is suggesting that religion is genetic (I hope). One of the most charming things about human beings is that, once they get held under a firm persuasion, nothing on earth can dissuade them – except, I would say, desire.
“I might just point out though that we at least agree that sexual orientation isn’t a choice, per se, which I think was the basis of this entire (increasingly acrimonious) exchange!”
Yes, conscious choice it mostly is not (although I think some people could be conscious of the creation of their sexuality happening). I am sorry for the acrimony – when I feel shouted at by people calling “moron” and getting annoyed by even the suggestion that they weren’t “born this way”, I react badly. My bad.
Sven – “if there was even the remotest possibility that their preferences could change they would have changed it.”
To clarify this, as it is important: the only thing that can change someone’s sexuality is desire (a free radical). Therefore someone cannot fancy women/men when they encounter no desire to do so, but when they encounter a woman they desire, suddenly everything is changed.
@Joe — Your position isn’t that the case is not proven. Your position is that there is no genetic link:
“Personally, I don’t believe that anybody is born gay”
“I just do not happen to believe that I or anyone was born either gay or straight,”
“And, put frankly, it seems nonsense to believe that anyone can have been born with a sexual orientation.”
“Btw, I do not think that homosexuality or hetrosexuality is “nurtured””
“The idea that someone is born gay seems a perfectly unscientific idea – a kind of version of predestination.”
“I didn’t say all scientific theories were half-baked, I said theories of genetic homosexuality are.”
“I don’t believe that orientation is genetic, sorry. ”
And you quoted an undergraduate dissertation — hardly ringing evidence — to support your contention. And it doesn’t ! From the conclusion of your evidence:
“From the data reviewed in this report, it seems reasonable to conclude that male homosexuality, or, at least, some ‘types’ of male homosexuality, are under some degree of genetic control.”
And I’m supposed to actually care what a teenage guy who is suddenly famous for . . . . singing thinks? Welcome to the corporate-controlled media of America.
@Joe — I think the overwhelming argument as to why being gay for some people is genetic — why some people have no choice but to be gay — is what happened to the gay Malawi couple recently.
If they had a choice, do you think they’d come out and get married, knowing full well that they could go to jail for 14 years ? Does that sound likely ? Or does it sound like something that was so overwhelming, that they literally had no choice ?
“If they had a choice, do you think they’d come out and get married, knowing full well that they could go to jail for 14 years ? Does that sound likely ? ”
From the beginnings of recorded time, people have been willing to die for all sorts of reasons. How are religious people willing to die for their convictions? Are they genetic?
“Your position isn’t that the case is not proven. Your position is that there is no genetic link”
You don’t do nuance, do you? My position is as you say; I used the paper to refute what others were saying – that the case is proven. The paper is only useful as a survey of 3 major twin studies, which JohnK seems to think are the Holy Grail of genetic predisposition. None of those studies is convincing and a child could see that.
It is amazing that many here have commented about Justin having a religious background and therefore they dismiss anything he has to say as relevant for that reason alone. Talk about closed minded hypocrites.I would say that those people appear to be brain washed.
Is it not true that allowed to continue most pregancies would result in a baby. How then is abortion not killing and furthur more killing a defenseless innocent human?
Is it not a good idea for anyone to be selective about when and with whom they have sex? It woud result far less need to even consider abortion.
There is nothing illogical about what Bieber said. No one even Lady GAGA (who I take it is a expert on all thing homosexual) has all the answers I am not homosexual and I hope none of my children follow that path but whether is it something a person has a choice about or not I can’t say.
When you stop trying to shove your beliefs down my throat I will be much more likely to respect your opinions, whether they agree with mine or not.
Goldie – you came onto a gay news website and have the nerve to complain that gay people are pushing their beliefs on you. Come on now, think about that for a minute, you surely did not mean that?
justin is gay himself thats why hes such a hater. i mean look at him hahaha. and seriously abortion wrong by rape ? he needs to be slapped around
How come the world give so much importance to what a 16 year old says? What does he know about life?
He is just a child star, come on!!!
Everybody on here please calm down. we are all going completely nut over the miswritten views of a hot teen pop idol who we all know is infact living a lie through what his publicist & manager have payed him or have told him to say those things to maintain his image for the sake of covering up his own homosexuality. @Joe & @Goldie both of you are complete idiots & should feel ashamed of yourselfs on what you have both said on these comment boards. anyway Justin Bieber is actually infact 17 years old, so I can fantasize about him all I want thank you very much. I am hoping to see Justin Bieber: Never Say Never in 3D next wednesday & can not wait to see Justin Bieber come out or pop out of the screen in 3D.
Joe, the refer spurious critical analysis you presented earlier is outdated, and only refers to research done mainly in the 1960s and 80s
Joe, science has moved on with regards monozygotic twin studies, and more recent research from the Institute of psychiatry provides strong evidence for homosexuality having a genetic basis.
@Joe . . .
The rather “spurious” critical analysis you presented earlier is outdated, and only refers to research done mainly in the 1960s and 80s
these kids need to shut up and do whatever it is they are paid to do – not use their celebrity status to traffic in their infantile, ill informed “opinions”. That goes for all celebrities; they abuse their position. they are not politicians and their opinions are no more valid than any joe bloggs on the street, the difference is that joe bloggs doesnt have a media platform to spout a load of drivel.
@Goldie — “It is amazing that many here have commented about Justin having a religious background and therefore they dismiss anything he has to say as relevant for that reason alone. Talk about closed minded hypocrites.I would say that those people appear to be brain washed.”
I think people are objecting to what he says, no so much the reason why he says it.
“When you stop trying to shove your beliefs down my throat I will be much more likely to respect your opinions, whether they agree with mine or not.”
How is a discussion on a LGBT forum ‘shoving our beliefs down your throat’ ? You say you’re not homosexual, yet you’re posting on a homosexual forum.
I presume you think LGBT people discussing hostility to LGBT people on a forum for LGBT people is a forceful intrusion upon you. Sorry, not sure I agree.
Goldie, when are you going to stop crying, I am a victim; when ever you come across something you do not like
Goldie, when are you going to refine your onto-epistemological view of the world
Goldie, when are you going to stop walling, stewing and stagnating in narccisistic hetersexist world view
@Joe — I’m not sure what your argument is now. Your contention is that homosexuality has no genetic basis. You presented as support of this an undergraduate thesis that says:
This does not support your thesis. It doesn’t incontrovertibly prove the counter thesis — manifestly — but that isn’t evidence for your thesis.
Your comparison with religious people is interesting. Perhaps a tendency to religious belief is genetic — it certainly runs very strongly in families.
@Goldie — you ask:
“Is it not true that allowed to continue most pregancies would result in a baby. How then is abortion not killing and furthur more killing a defenseless innocent human?”
This really isn’t the forum for a discussion pro and contra abortion. However, let me ask you a question:
How often do you think fertilization leads to an established, viable pregnancy ? That is to say, how often do you think, natural, spontaneous abortion happens ?
Let me give a hint — it’s more than 50% of the time.
@Goldie — “Is it not a good idea for anyone to be selective about when and with whom they have sex? It woud result far less need to even consider abortion. ”
That’s a very good point ! Of course you’re right. Women who are raped are really asking for it. If only they were more selective with whom they have sex.
But I’m not sure I’m convinced of your bona fides Goldie. I wonder … despite the obvious misspelling and grammar slips … there’s something a lal inconsistent in your prose.
Wait … you’re not a troll are you ? I think you maybe !
At 17 years of age – he’s hardly qualified or experienced to understand anything about sexuality. The old saying of “children should be seen and not heard” comes to mind.
OMG you writers totally twisted his words. I’m not a fan of his, I absolutely hate his music, as a matter of fact, but I read the interview on Yahoo! and he was NOT saying that abortion when rape is not ok. He just said that he didn’t know how to respond since he hasn’t been in that situation. I thought his answered were honest and relatively mature a for a his kid who has barely hit puberty yet. Again I’m not fan, but the article totally twisted the interview. Not cool!
He is not anti-gay, you nutters.
His words, translated for Britain, “It’s everyone’s own decision to do that” means he is okay with people being outwardly gay.
If not, the next sentence wouldn’t make sense.
“It doesn’t affect me and shouldn’t affect anyone else.”
This is an arguement used by PRO-GAY people to say why gay marriage isn’t the end of the world. This is pretty pro-gay for someone who was raised in an uber Christian family too, as I hear people mentioning.
I agree with his stance on abortion, albeit not for a religious reason, so I can’t comment there and it isn’t appropriate for an LGBT site anyways.
But then again, I guess instead of doing something productive, gay people always inspire to be the next stereotypical minority and cry and whine about even positive statements in context.
“I agree with his stance on abortion, albeit not for a religious reason, so I can’t comment there and it isn’t appropriate for an LGBT site anyways.”
ZRK, I was what do you agree with? . . and what cannot you mention on this site?
ZRK, I was wondering what you agree with in relation to abortion? . . and what cannot you mention on this site?
So young – and so much to learn. I hope he doesn’t influence other young and naive folk.