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Figures show 28% rise in London anti-gay hate attacks

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  1. Tony Konrath 10 Feb 2011, 6:19pm

    We need to be careful about “factoids.” It’s far more likely that more crimes are being reported rather than “more crimes ere being committed.

  2. Came out in the mid 80s, and I tihnk that homophobia is far worse now than it was then.

  3. Very sad.

  4. So what, prey, had given rise to these attacks, amid times in which our assimilation in to the mainstream has, ironically, been enabled by a greater acceptance and tolerance of gays? Hmmm, could it be anything to do with the lunatic fringe of perpetual whingers and “victims” who want to push gay rights to the very precipice of what has already been achieved through the sterling work of lone warrior Pater Tatchell, but is being undone by the radicalised ideologies and extremist doctrines of trouble-mongers Stonewall and the braying lynch mob that inhabit these boards? Who scream blue murder at any perceived hint of homophobia in any shape or form, however misguided? Or who demand the lynchings of religious folk who have had their own freedom to express their centuries-old beliefs trampled upon by the equally intolerant and bigoted tenets of political correctness? How ironic that the attack dogs on here who think they are doing us all a favour each time they scream blue murder at their perceived enemies are in fact lighting the touch paper to a whole new wave of homophobia that is proving to be more bloody, violent and indiscriminate than anything we have experienced before. How many more Ian Baynhams, who just want to live a quiet life and who have nothing to do with the gay rabble rousers who play the eternal victim on cue every time there is the merest hint of a slight against us, and who are pushing and stirring Daily Mail readers into a frenzy of exasperation at their hysterical demands on a near daily basis, must there be before they put two and two together? There are always extremists on both sides of an argument, but the lunatic fringe that is pushing for the criminalization of the freedom to hold religious beliefs have pushed too far, and as recent attacks against us have shown, some of us are paying the price in blood. I have said before many times that playing the religious fanatics at their own game – fighting fire with fire – will only lead to the incitement of more aggressive and resentful outpourings of homophobia. Reasoned and rational debate on the differences that divide us and an acceptance that on some issues we have to just learn to accept and live and let live are the only way forward if we are to win the respect and tolerance of the mainstream and curtail these horrible hate crimes against us.

  5. Really pleased to see more people ARE reporting hate crime from the LGBT community -we know these reported crimes are only a small number of actual hate crimes which really do take place.

    Please report all hate crime its so important.

  6. @William . . . If you could use a paragraph ocassionally, we might be able to understand your argument.

    What you have written just comes across as one long hysterical rant.

  7. As Tony Konrath mentions, the LIKELIHOOD TO REPORT anti-gay crimes will have also risen (which would mean that the absolute rise in anti-gay crime MUST be lower than 28%).

  8. 28% rise sounds like just the tip of the iceberg of the true hate crime statistics that go unreported. london has turned into a homophobic dump. feel sick when i meet these stupid gay men who think they are in some gay tolerant city. they really need to stop being so insular .

  9. I agree that London is not a gay-friendly city. It is, by and large, a homophobic city.

    I find it hard to believe, however, that society is more homophobic today than it was, for instance, twenty years ago. I think perhaps with younger people, due to the homophobic attitudes in school, the homophobia in hip-hop and et cetera, they might be more likely to be homophobic than the general population.

    Having said that, however, I do not believe society is more homophobic today.

    I think it is largely down to (1) more reporting and (2) gay people being more visible, so more chances of hate crimes.

  10. @William. So from what I could gather from your rambling rant there, you think that we should just “let it go” whenever a religious person uses their ancient doctrine to justify their wayward view of the world? A doctor doesn’t want to treat the queers? That’s fine. A hotelier doesn’t want our dirty gay money? That’s tolerable. A bar owner decides that fags would feel more comfortable drinking elsewhere? Why not, we’d only go there later anyway!
    Of course! How DARE us gays ask for basic rights? Isn’t it enough that straigh people are tolerant of our lifestyle! Y’know, as long as we don’t hold hands or talk about it or do any of the other acts that might be perceived as PUSHING IT DOWN THE NORMAL PEOPLE’S THROATS!!
    Finally: Can I ask when you came to have this defeatist attitude? There’s nothing sadder than a man who’s lost the will to stand up for what is right for fear of offending some people who might as well be praying to a giant marshmallow man!.

  11. I agree with Jim. There was very little homophobia in the 80’s. We seen and not heard, so we were accepted.

    Gay rights has done irreparable damage to all of us. We all had vibrant gay scenes, now none. It is REPRESSION now for gay men.

    Remember the past of what happened to gay men. Forced into Straight sham marriages and forced to have kids they did not want.

    Now we live in a world where we can be gay and our lives are ruined again.

    The gay community is so self-destructive now. appeasing mainstream society at the expense of the gay community. The allegiance and priority should be to your own community first and foremost, not mainstream society.

    it is disgusting what has happened to all of us. Peter Tatchell along with others should be shot for ruining our lives.

  12. The pendulum is swinging back against the gay community, It was said it would happen.

    If you are going to cause trouble by flaunting your sexuality in public and agravating people then you will get retaliation.
    .

  13. In the 80’s and 90’s we had the best scene best culture best attitude we gave up our freedoms to fit in. Now were hated more than ever since 2000 I believe were averaging a murder every 6 months.

  14. I think reports are up but I also think gay people are more visible so there are more targets for the knuckle draggers.

    It is an unfortunate realism that as we assert our rights we become more visible to those that hate us.

  15. You call them knuckle draggers I assuming you mean poorer or working class but they come in all shapes and sizes including teachers doctors judges lawyers estate agents charity volunteers vicars I could go on. Don’t make assumptions some of the most accepting people are usually the most down to earth too

  16. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 7:40am

    This is a worrying report. Now I’m not saying all but we have to look at the fact that London has experienced an increase in immigration where people coming here have homophobic tendancies and from places where race is the treated with less respect that in our culture.

    I think it should be absolutely paramount that UK citizenship should include British Culture in that people, Gay/Lesbian in the UK are legally entitled to be themselves and race discrimination is also not acceptable. It Must be priority that people coming here must accept and respect our culture in the same way we would be if we were a guest in there country. They may not agree with the laws of the land but must abide them. Anything else should warrant their removal.

    Other than that education has to be key. I still feel the last Labour government are to blame for these rises. They not only let immigration slip but when removing Section 28 they Failed to put a proper education system in place to combat and tackle Gay/Lesbian issues as well as homophobic bullying and abuse.

  17. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 7:49am

    I do have to agree with JIm.

    Also one who came out in the 80’s and enjoyed the London scene through the 90’s I never suffered any personal homophobic abuse.

    However, only since Labour took over have I suffered homophobic abuse so bad I had to be moved. Unfortunately from immigrates.

    As for London not being gay-friendly, it tends to only be in those outer areas of large immigrate societies. I have lived in London all my life and until ‘those incidents’ 6 years ago I have never had a problem with London. Inner London is still as Gay friendly as ever I knew and I hope it stays that way.

  18. Jock

    There used to be mostly Nigerian cabbies outside all the clubs in the 80’s and 90’s who were laways cool. The aggro I get is usually from teenagers who are trying to prove themselves and I think I’m not going to jail for you and supermaket checkout women they usually have an attitude thank god for Ocado

  19. “In the 80′s and 90′s we had the best scene best culture best attitude we gave up our freedoms to fit in.”

    James, I certainty would not want to trade modern legal protection (as poor as it is in places) and improving social acceptance with a few seedy underground clubs. There’s a bit more to being gay, thankfully, than a good night out in a dive and the odd one in a sauna. You are viewing the past through rose tinted glasses, alas.

  20. Will i imagine youre straight homophobic and know nothing about culture you philistine

  21. “Will i imagine youre straight homophobic and know nothing about culture you philistine”

    Well, wrong on all accounts, so you imagination leaves a lot to be desired. As does your version of “culture”, if you prefer a few dingy gay bars where the behaviour of its denizens was illegal.

    Personally I prefer legal protection for gay people, and social acceptance as progress, not hiding in some back street club as a social outcast. Makes me wonder what sort of “freedoms” you think you gave up in the 80’s.

  22. Will youre a twat a confirmist twat you can have the scraps from the table and beg for acceptance I prefer my indivuadility and character. You know nothing

  23. @Richard: “@William. So from what I could gather from your rambling rant there, you think that we should just “let it go” whenever a religious person uses their ancient doctrine to justify their wayward view of the world? A doctor doesn’t want to treat the queers? That’s fine. A hotelier doesn’t want our dirty gay money? That’s tolerable. A bar owner decides that fags would feel more comfortable drinking elsewhere? Why not, we’d only go there later anyway!”

    But who the feck would want to stay in a hotel run by extremist Christians? Or be treated by a radicalized Christian Doctor? Only, it seems, those gays who are deliberately setting out to bait such people and entrap them, such as was suggested regarding the Christian hoteliers. Lest we forget, it wasn’t so long ago that gay men were being entrapped by “pretty policemen”, and that expressing our sexuality was itself a criminal offence. Now, the lunatic fringe of gays are trying to do the same thing to those who had no choice about the religion they were born into and whose scriptures they were brainwashed into believing and preaching. Two wrongs simply do not make a right, and let’s make no mistake here: it is a minority fringe of gays who have hijacked this debate and who are stirring a hornet’s nest of trouble up for all of us. You see them on these very pages; the same few names cropping up over and over whenever such a story appears, like they have no life other than to lurk on PN as each new incendiary story is posted as bait that you pounce upon, lap up and vent your wrath over like snarling rottweillers. Well, you know what? I jolly well hope that Christian couple do win the argument on appeal, because as a gay man I respect their right to hold their beliefs and know far better than most on here, it seems, than to book into a hotel in Cornwall that is likely to exercise puritan principles when there are hundreds of others whose doors are wide open for us.

  24. Any lgbt person who thinks London is gay friendly needs to get out of Soho for half an hour.

  25. “Will youre a twat a confirmist twat you can have the scraps from the table and beg for acceptance I prefer my indivuadility and character. You know nothing”

    Clearly I beg to differ. Lets ignore the offensive remarks becuase you’re upset, shall we?

    To put a finer point on it, I do not see having legal protections as “conformist”, I see them as necessary. Maybe you don’t need these legal rights as for you being gay and “individual” seems to amount to a sauna and a dingy dark bar back in the 80’s soemwhere. Good for you. Hope that’s all going well for you. Let me know when you finish building that working time machine.

  26. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 11:33am

    @ Will

    While your quite right about legal protection.

    However London in the 80’s/90’s wasn’t all about seedy underground bars or pokey dives. There seemed to be greater choice of proper pubs to go to, nothing seedy. Sadly most of them have gone now.

    Their also seemed to be a greater sense of community then too.

    Growing through that it is noticable the difference and the fact there is a certain intolerance creeping in that didn’t seem to be there a few years ago.

    I have to say I Never experienced or saw much in the way of homophobia then. I used to be on the scene a lot too. I have seen homophobia in the last 10 years though.

    I don’t know what it was but things then did seem genuinely better, friendlier. People did seem to be much more accepting. Though I have to be fair to you and say that probably the biggest problem wasn’t so much the public as those in charge holding up rights. So on that yes your right.

    However looking at the rights we have now, I just wish that whole atmosphere of the 80’s/90’s was still here. The sense of real community.

    My thinking is that probably the scene in London was probably more protective of each other whereas now younger people don’t really understand the struggles Gay people went through to get the rights they enjoy today. So probably take it all for granted.

    Of course that seems to give the nutters of society somehow the right to abuse what stands as the law. That is what a lot of religious groups now know and play one.

  27. Jim/Radical53

    “I agree with Jim. There was very little homophobia in the 80′s. We seen and not heard, so we were accepted.”

    What? Did you live in a different world to the rest of us? Less people were out thsu reducing the amount of hate they exposed themselves to, people went to gay clubs in secret, few were ‘ostensibly gay’ and people didn’t report hate crimes to the police because they didn’t trust them! Those are the only possible ways that gay hate crimes would have been lower than today. Not to mention you had barely any rights in teh 80s.

    Christ alive, did you live in a parallele world?

    James!

    “In the 80′s and 90′s we had the best scene best culture best attitude we gave up our freedoms to fit in.”

    What freedom is it that you have apparently given up? The law has since afforded you more than you could have ever have hoped for. are you saying you are unhappy about legal progress? That’s screwed up!

    As for the ‘best culture’, you’re probably being a bit nostalgic. The fact I can go out to an everyday, mixed pub with a guy or slow dance with one in a mixed nighclub is great. 20 years ago, I couldn’t have done that.

    “Now were hated more than ever since 2000 I believe were averaging a murder every 6 months.”

    No. People report hate crimes more than they used to. A murder every six months? Whilst that should not be happening, it is more likely that gay men killed in homophobic attacks 20 years ago and who fell off the radar were probably not known to be gay by family or friends. If you live a double life, it’s less likely the true cause of your death will be discovered.

  28. Jock
    Dont even attemp to dignify wills comments. Aids took many brilliant minds from the scene 80 & 90 who made the scene vibrant and exciting full of companionship and trust. Now the dregs, who would be shunned like will and spanner. They have an ugly vioce of selfhatred. Meth k and e replaced character and charisma and fetish nights have taken over fun and parties.

  29. Jock

    “This is a worrying report. Now I’m not saying all but we have to look at the fact that London has experienced an increase in immigration where people coming here have homophobic tendancies and from places where race is the treated with less respect that in our culture.

    I think it should be absolutely paramount that UK citizenship should include British Culture in that people, Gay/Lesbian in the UK are legally entitled to be themselves and race discrimination is also not acceptable. It Must be priority that people coming here must accept and respect our culture in the same way we would be if we were a guest in there country. They may not agree with the laws of the land but must abide them. Anything else should warrant their removal.”

    Now that I absolutely agree with. There is no point importing hatred when we are trying to stamp it out here. It undoes the good work done so far. London is also a specific problem in itself as it has numerous faith groups that are so large and so isolated that it breeds discrimination. Towards gays, towards women and towards non-whites. David Cameron’s speech on multiculturalism is pertinent as gay people are some of those that have directly suffered as a result of the low integration by certain communities.

    We cannot have parallel ideologies competing for influence.

  30. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 12:50pm

    @ James!

    Sorry fella have to disagree with ya there. Will is one of the more intelligent people to debate with here. Give him a chance you’ll see compared to the likes of mmm… and spanner his arguements are well rounds and not bigotted. He know how to contribute.

    Calm down a bit but you do make good points too m8y. :)

    @ mmmmm

    For the first time in my internet life I’m gonna have to ask you to Get Stuffed. I really couldn’t care less about your nasty bigotted opinions. I say opinions I mean of course nasty rantings.

    You once wrote you couldn’t respond because of my name so maybe grow a pair and stick to it. Cheers.

    Sorry to everyone else, I’m not usually someone who takes a dislike to anyone but it had to be said.

  31. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 12:52pm

    @ James

    I will say one thing your Very right on the fact Aids took a lot of the best people. It’s a very sad thing that in the last 10 years I’ve lost many people passed and living to drugs.

  32. James!

    “Dont even attemp to dignify wills comments. Aids took many brilliant minds from the scene 80 & 90 who made the scene vibrant and exciting full of companionship and trust.”

    And we want to escape that AIDS label, thanks for associating it with us again.

    “Now the dregs, who would be shunned like will and spanner. They have an ugly vioce of selfhatred.”

    No, it’s actually self-respect. We don’t want to be associated with the negative practices pursued by gay people in the past. Some call it post-gay, others call it common sense and making the most of our rights.

    “Meth k and e replaced character and charisma and fetish nights have taken over fun and parties.”

    There could be some truth in that. But it’s also indicative of the general trend of society to engage more in drug and sex-related culture. Lady Gaga society. Great.

    Jock

    “However London in the 80′s/90′s wasn’t all about seedy underground bars or pokey dives. There seemed to be greater choice of proper pubs to go to, nothing seedy. Sadly most of them have gone now.

    Their also seemed to be a greater sense of community then too.”

    That’s only because gay people HAD to stick together more. They couldn’t turn to friends, family or the police for support like we can now. The gay ghettos have been crumbling as progress has been made and that can only be a good thing.

    “Growing through that it is noticable the difference and the fact there is a certain intolerance creeping in that didn’t seem to be there a few years ago.”

    Gay people are more visible and thus can be targetted more easily by those intent on doing so. I disagree that intolerance overall is higher quite the opposite. But you touch on a point about there being a few more extremist nutters about that could have some truth in it.

    “I don’t know what it was but things then did seem genuinely better, friendlier.”

    People had to be. If you didn’t get on with gay people, who else would you have got on with? People needed each other more. Not to mention Thatcherism has struck since then, we are more individualist than we used to be.

    “However looking at the rights we have now, I just wish that whole atmosphere of the 80′s/90′s was still here. The sense of real community.”

    Thatcher killed that. Not to mention the internet killed a lot of the community relations we had back then.

    “My thinking is that probably the scene in London was probably more protective of each other whereas now younger people don’t really understand the struggles Gay people went through to get the rights they enjoy today. So probably take it all for granted.”

    There is truth in that. But it’s also the effect of emancipation. People used to stick together based on ther commonality of being gay, not because they necessarily liked each other. Now people have a choice because they don’t have to stick with gay people they wouldn’t ordinarily have been friends with. Support is offered everywhere and accessible to all at every level. Gay people have many more straight friends than they used to. That is also a good things, it shows that we are being accepted and that we are trusting of those outside the gay world.

    “Of course that seems to give the nutters of society somehow the right to abuse what stands as the law. That is what a lot of religious groups now know and play one.”

    True. Religious influence needs to be limited and religious groups need to be better integrated and taught the same common values as everyone else. Separate faith schools should be banned!

  33. Ok Jock I’ll reign it in a bit and give Will a chance

    mmmm “And we want to escape that AIDS label, thanks for associating it with us again”

    Ashamed of your history and ashamed of AIDS youre a disgusting coward and should be put to sleep

  34. mmm “That’s only because gay people HAD to stick together more” this creature has never had a bond

  35. Jock

    “You once wrote you couldn’t respond because of my name so maybe grow a pair and stick to it. Cheers.”

    Thanks for twisting everything to suit your personal dislike of me, again, yawn. I actually said that your choice of name was just stereotyping us even more as a group that is focused purely on sex and sleaze. Such a name doesn’t make you look very serious. Sorry, but that’s life, we assess people by how they define themselves.

    And I stick by what I said. Grow a pair? Seriously, if anyone needs to man up, it’s you.

    “I will say one thing your Very right on the fact Aids took a lot of the best people.”

    So those who didn’t get HIV/AIDS were somehow less valued? Natural selection wasn’t on their side, sorry to be the bearer of biological news.

  36. James!

    “Ashamed of your history and ashamed of AIDS youre a disgusting coward and should be put to sleep”

    Erm, AIDS isn’t genetic or an ethnicity or a culture. It’s not my history, I’ve never had it, none of my family have and it isn’t just a gay illness. If you want to claim it as your history, you do that, but you have no right to associate me with something that has never been part of my life. I’ve not had typhoid, should I weave that into my history because some other gay people did?

    And do you think anyone will take seriously someone who advocates putting someone to sleep for having an opinion? You sound like a Ugandan doctor advocating the death of a gay man because it’s not natural’. You are beyond sick.

    James!

    “mmm “That’s only because gay people HAD to stick together more” this creature has never had a bond”

    Can you prove that statement? Bit far-fetched an hysterical. Can you also tell me what colour eyes, skin and hair I have while you’re at it.

  37. Heartless c u n t

  38. James!

    I don’t like you views, but you don’t have to describe yourself THAT negatively.

    Idiot would have done just fine.

  39. Erm, “AIDS isn’t genetic or an ethnicity or a culture. It’s not my history, I’ve never had it, none of my family have and it isn’t just a gay illness. If you want to claim it as your history, you do that, but you have no right to associate me with something that has never been part of my life. I’ve not had typhoid, should I weave that into my history because some other gay people did”

    DO you have any idea how many great people died because AIDS and you dismiss them with absolutely no respect

    I’m sure its a reflection of your own self worth you are I should pity such an empty soul but you are c u n t a nasty horrible c u n t

  40. I agree with some comments here bout legal protections, but are they being enforced appropriately. As for social progress , its more like social regression.The tide has turned backwards again. Most young people in london listen and value murder music and urban mysoginistic , homophobic culture. gay people are suppressed in this city but i reckon some are actually happy with that from reading these comments.

  41. “Now the dregs, who would be shunned like will and spanner.”

    I am unsure why you would think that, but unfortunately, I am hardly “dregs” as you put it. I am what we have fought so long for:- I’m in a long term happy stable relationship, I work in a position of some authority in a multinational, and I am out at work and with my friends. None of my staff blink an eye at me being gay, and those who might be homophobic know better then to bring that attitude into my team, as homophobia is as unacceptable behaviour both legally and internally as misogyny or verbal abuse.

    So, perhaps you need to ask yourself why there is not as much community left? Perhaps its becuase the more mainstream we are, the less we need support of a ghetto like environment. That might be good or bad depending on your point of view, but people who chose not to huddle in bars by way of a community are hardly dregs. Quite the opposite, I would say.

    Maybe you lament the passing of the 80’s, but I am not old enough to have been part of them, but its irrelevant:- last time I checked, its was 2011, and we are now more visible than ever, and despite what we read in the newspaper, more and more people think that homophobia is unacceptable then we could ever have imagined in the 80’s.

    I’d also suggest you ease up on the anger James, as calling someone “empty soul” and “a nasty horrible c u n t” is hardly an opposing point of view. In fact, it makes me glad I am not carrying the baggage you are.

  42. James!

    “DO you have any idea how many great people died because AIDS and you dismiss them with absolutely no respect”

    I didn’t dismiss them at all, I just said that those who didn’t die of AIDS are not value-less, as was implied.

    “I’m sure its a reflection of your own self worth you are I should pity such an empty soul but you are c u n t a nasty horrible c u n t”

    James, you really need to get help, your language and hate speech is disturbing. Though I imagine, like many on here, you’re all talk and use the fact you can hde behind a PC to dish out such spite. You’d never have the nuts to say that to my face. If you did, you’d soon be sat on your rear.

    Value yourself a bit more and quit the foul language. You look like a fool.

  43. P.S. Thanks Jock, for you comments… cheered me up. :)

  44. Will I take back all the nasty stuff I said about you

  45. mmm

    anytime anyplace

  46. Will

    Precisely. People try to make us feel guilty for living the very lifestyles that campaigners fought hard to bring legalise. How does that make any sense? Do you feel guilty that you don’t face prejudice in the workplace, in public or at hotels? Or that you are no longer barred from joining the army or navy? I don’t, it’s great and I applaud the gay rights activists and MPs that pushed for change and voted through such legislation.

    There seems to be a gobby minority who are determined for us to wallow in misery for all eternity. I simply cannot understand that.

    Indeed, James does seem to be carrying a lot of baggage. As much as I deplore his attitude, I am also mindful that his past may not be pleasant. Still, it doesn’t justify his behaviour on here. Particularly his attitude towards someone like me who is actually on the side of gay rights. Some people just have to find someone to hate to fill a void I guess.

  47. “Will I take back all the nasty stuff I said about you”

    That’s no problem James. I am aware from friends that lived in Ireland in the 80’s how tough it was being gay, and certainly being out back then was a far braver thing to be then now (not saying its a walk in the park now either), but you have to remember, we have moved on from then, and their generation and struggle is part of past we are building on, not returning to.

    I would suggest a possibility that the reason we see more homophobic hate crimes is that we are seeing them being reported more, as the police services are less biased against us then they were in the past.

  48. Will

    Again I agree. It is also worth noting that homophobia is not spread evenly throughout the UK. It is fostered by and large in particular communities – mainly religious. Faith communities have grown in the UK due to immgration and with their isolation from the mainstream and higher birth rates, that is set to increase. That’s why it’s difficult to consider London and its 28% rise as a problem for London as a whole. It’s more important to look at the specific perpetrators of these crimes – is there a religious or ethnice correlation? From what I’ve seen, I’d bet there was. Not very PC, but if most religions were advocated as political manifestos, they’d be classes as right-wing as the BNP.

  49. “Do you feel guilty that you don’t face prejudice in the workplace, in public or at hotels?”

    Not at all, in fact anyone that tries the homophobia crap with me rarely get the timid shy away response :)

    And I agree with you on the religion part, which reminds me of that famous expression, “the price of freedom is eternal vigilance”

  50. Agreed on both points. If people make the most of their rights, they’ll feel more satisfied and their happiness will impact on their behaviour and attitude towards others as well. I look forward to the day when we become as boringly mundane as heterosexuals, raising not even the slightest hint of an eyebrow. Some on here despair at that because they consider their sexuality to be the defining part of their characters. I don’t. My friends are based on my interests and values, not who they sleep with and so I have mainly straight friends. Some will hate me for that, but there’ll be a good deal of irony in that if they do.

  51. Will

    I think a possibility is the general denigration of gay people.
    Gay is now used as a pejorative as and legitimized by respected organisations like BBC. Little Britain and rap defiantly have made a difference to how this generation see us.

    I was out at school and only had a bit of trouble. This was in a rough part of London, I dread to think what it would be like now.
    In the last 5 years I have had more aggro usually from kids than I experienced in my whole life.

  52. “I think a possibility is the general denigration of gay people.”

    That maybe your view, and I’m not saying its isn’t right from your point of view. But surely you see how we have progressed in such a short time? Civil Marriage in 10 countries, CP in every one of the original 15 countries of the EU (bar Italy, but then again, there’s a paedophile running the government in that particular neck of the woods), anti hate laws, anti discrimination laws, all over Europe. And where there are laws, the people’s attitudes will follows as acceptance increases. There will always be homophobes, but their voices will become an echo in time. Keep in mind there are those who still believe the earth is 6,000 years old in this day and age, and that is a bigger disgrace then homophobia!

    I think you’re focusing solely on the negatives. There is lots to do, but so much done already. Pink News is a news paper, and as such paints mostly negative stories, but my experience has been on the whole very positive, especially in “old catholic Ireland” (which is nothing of the sort any more, thankfully).

    “Some will hate me for that, but there’ll be a good deal of irony in that if they do.”

    mmmmmmmm, I’m not one of them, I couldn’t agree more. The goal of diversity at the end of the day is “equal yet different”, not “equal but isolated”, and for me, its educating people to remove the stereotypes and the religious propaganda until no one bats an eye at a gay person any more. Is sad that there are still others who miss the ghetto days, but the “revolution” is hardly over yet :)

  53. Yes Will we have a lot on paper but somewhere along the way we lost the hearts and minds which is just as important IMO

  54. “Yes Will we have a lot on paper but somewhere along the way we lost the hearts and minds which is just as important IMO”

    How exactly have we lost them? I’m still seeing no evidence from you on this. Do you seriously think I could have risen the ranks of a large corporation being gay if society hadn’t changed?

    In my opinion, what we lost was the isolationist approach to our lives and the lack of acceptance. And I’m glad we did to, I certainly would not like to live my life under Section 28, or Paragraph 175, or Penal Code 1791, just so I can say “I still have my individually” – that notion is preposterous. Ghetto’s have never been of benefit to its inhabitants, whether ghettos are physical or in the collective mind. History alone will teach you that.

  55. Come on will we are allowed different opinions you define sucsess by rising through a corporation I define sucsess as sharing a with picnic with your boyfriend in a busy public park and both of us falling asleep in the sun in each others arms without fear. Impossible in London.

  56. @James! You should try Soho Square, Lincoln’s Inn Fields, Hampstead Heath or St James’s Park, in all of which I’ve seen unembarrassed PDAs between men without so much as a second glance from anyone in the vicinity.

    (Sorry, going off at a slight tangent.)

  57. Will

    Well said

    “Come on will we are allowed different opinions you define sucsess by rising through a corporation I define sucsess as sharing a with picnic with your boyfriend in a busy public park and both of us falling asleep in the sun in each others arms without fear. Impossible in London.”

    These are both evidence of changing attitudes and success. Male-dominated boardrooms were always no-go areas, now they’re not. Picnicking with your boyfriend is also a possibility now. If you don’t believe me, get your backsides down to the banks of the Thames and you’ll see.

    Both are important because gay people aren’t one-dimensional, we all have to work, socialise and form relationships of one kind or another.

  58. You still have not shown me any evidence for this loss we are supposed to experience.

    Are you saying we could kiss in the park in the 80’s?

    I’m still not sure what you are actually saying James.

  59. And just to back up Rehan’s comment, I’m fairly sure Dublin is less progressive than London, and I have never had a problem showing my partner any affection in public.

  60. Thanks rehab and will

    I was thinking about all picknicking all over London. it’s an aspiration.

  61. @will , my friends from dublin got queer bashed in north london , camden which is supoposidly the bohemian area, and have never encountered violent homophobia in dublin and i thought dublin was far more progressive to south london, where i grew up ,which is very homophobic.

  62. I doubt that there is actually a rise in hate crimes. It is far more likely that hate crimes are now being reported as such. And officers are actually investigating crimes as being hate crimes, as opposed to turning away from the gay factor like they used to, and just reporting them as assaults (if they reported at all).

  63. Rapture, it would be a sad state of affairs indeed if London actually is less safe than Dublin!

  64. Well unlike others that try to rise to Jame!’s bait, I refuse to; the man was, and remains, a complete c u n t.

    Please excuse my Anglo-Saxon, but I cannot find another word that encompasses such a vituperous little turd.

  65. @will i’m afraid thats the way its going if not worse , was just now reading about gay free zone posters in brick lane.

  66. Hmm. One wonders what the reaction would be if it was a “Paki Free Zone”, or even “Muslim Free Zone”.

    There would be screams of derision.
    My personal opinion is “Gay Tolerance was pretty good in the 80’s, so what’s changed?”
    I’ll tell you. We have a far higher influx of immigrants, particularly from ones that have little or no gay rights.

    Many people may want to accuse me of being racist, which I am not, but it is the only apparent answer to this reversal over such a short period. There is an elephant in the room, but nobody is willing to point it out.

  67. Thomas Flemming 13 Feb 2011, 10:59pm

    It is about time, the Goverment, made Homophobic hate crimes illegal, and bulling,as well.

    This is what you get, when a Goverment, refuses to Ignor, to teach sex education, in our schools.
    The children grow up to adult hood and are ignorent, this is a crime in itself.
    I was ignorent, about sex and my sexuality, when I left school. To many People, still think sexuality is discusting to talk about. I wander how many Men and Women are still virgins and scared about their own sexuality. To many children, get false, sexual Information, from their friends. It is time, to stop burying, our heads in the sand, and tackle this problem, once and for all. Lets show the rest, of the World, that we as Brits, can change.

  68. @spanner i agree i went to school with over a 100 languages spoken, there was no effort at integration to western standards of respect and freedom. some people from more primitive , backward cultures were aggressively homophobic and it was considered socially acceptable to torture lgbt peeps to death. They were encouraged to keep the views of their parents from jamaica , africa etc because of all this cultural sensitivity rubbish. Another example of the failure of multiculturalism.

  69. Spanner

    You’re right in what you say. Criticism of the views of non-whites is always trumped up as racist – it’s the hackneyed retort of the far-left who continually conflate skin colour with ideology as a means to stifle debate. If the Bible and the Koran (particularly the latter) were political maniestos, they would be labelled as right of the BNP on their content alone, not to mention all of the ‘cultural practices’ associated with them. Christians are considered fair game, because in the UK they are mainly white. But black Christians, hmmmmm, doesn’t get so much of a mention.

    And then Muslims….The Guardian will barely touch it, only covering the very extreme (and normally illegal) aspects such as honour killings. Even then, many of those stories are very short and put in the latter pages. It’s the refusal of the left to analyse Islamic ideology, they just focus on Islamophobia. For most people, this isn’t a case of irrational hatred of Islam. It’s a very rational concern towards such a powerful and freedom-curbing ideology gaining influence in society. Not to mention the isolated communities across the country. Do we really want Muslim kids to be taught in separate faith schools, following a dfferent education to other kids and then feeling like they don’t belong here? How is that healthy? Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, BNP…they all get thorough scrutiny for what values they are advocating by left wing media. Islam? Not a sausage. They are just too afraid to criticise it, so instead they are quite happy to keep the status quo and watch our awful model of multiculturalism divide society along ethnic and religious lines. Well done them.

    Until the left stop making an inextricable link between ideology and skin colour as a way to be able to shout ‘racist’, then we will never get a decent debate on the role and influence of religion in our societies. The left is very stupid to focus on the apparent extremism of the EDL, when not only is it obviously less extreme than the BNP and Islam, but it openly states it is defending the rights of gays, women and Jews against Islam. But it’s because the EDL are (mainly white) and it’s a far easier target than actually manning up and addressing the hideous bigotry and prejudice espoused by Muslims in this country.

    LGBT people are not stupid, we know who our ideological ‘others’ are, those who despise our existence and those who think it is their religious duty to stop us at all costs. And, sadly, it’s mainly communities of African and Asian decent – because those are the places where Islam and strict Christianity have been imported from.

    End faith schools, teach one curriculum in all state schools, make schools secular and then we will see a better model of integration.

  70. This statement that multiculturalism has failed is a bit of a misnomer. By it’s very definition, you cannot ‘blend’ two cultures, otherwise you lose both and gain a third.

    We are a monoculturlist society that just happens to be very tolerant of others; however, there is a point where the tolerance will run out, and I think we are getting very close to that point..

    Left wingers have always used this guilt-trip idea as a stick to beat people with. If you have a problem with immigrants, you are a racist, if you are any right of centre, you are a fascist, and equally if you oppose anything else they try to dictate, they stick an “ist” on the word and shout it at you until you shut up.

    They are even trying the same ploy to get everyone to believe in global warming by accusing people of ‘destroying the planet’ because you put your rubbish in the wrong dustbin.

    People need to seriously wake up and start showing responsibility to their own country and culture, and pointing out that although we welcome foreigners, this is our country first and foremost, and that we come first. None of the other cultures seem willing to bend or compromise in an effort to integrate. I save children speaking different languages, and shops, businesses and places of worship that only support their own culture, yet at the same time our own is being constantly eroded and compromised in order to keep everyone else happy.

    I follow the edict, “when in Rome…”
    If you dont like it, go back from whence you came and leave the rest of us to being British.

  71. @spanner i’m afraid its too late to turn the tide back now.

  72. I agree with Spanner. The fact is that muslims do not approve of our way of life – not just being gay but our general moral attitudes, they judge us and find us wanting.

    Also, the more visible a community, the more resistance it will provoke; that is what is happening now in london; ironically it is probably safer to live in a small town or community where people know you and care about you; trouble in London is that no-one really cares about anyone much.

    Also, people appear to have had enough of a rights based culture because they see the rights of some apparently undeserving (like criminals or immigrants) trumping the rights of ordinary law abiding citizens and this had led to a kind of rights fatigue, irrespective of how fair those rights are.

    However, lets not embolden the phobes with negative talk; they tend to be young men (and increasingly it seems young women); not your average citizen. the police are doing more than ever to tackle hate crime; trust me, i know.

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