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Transgender woman told ‘dress as a man to find work’

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  1. TheSuburbanBi 8 Feb 2011, 2:26pm

    I think Janett Scott’s analogies are appropriate — asking a trans woman to ‘dress like a man’ to get work is the same as telling a gay peson to ‘act straight’ on job interviews or telling a black person during the height of racist tensions to ‘wear whiteface’ or if possible ‘pass as white’ to get work. Ridiculous. The era of hiding who you are to appease bigots is over — it’s Jobcentre’s job to tell educate any prospective employers about the law and about the qualifications of the candidate. Not to foster ignorance and bigotry.

  2. I agree, transphobia is unacceptable.
    Gee I wonder what the out come of complaint

  3. This is probably more down to ignorance than bigotry. Equalities training is needed!

  4. They would not stand for such things in my area. If someone reported such a thing then the person would be immediately suspended and rightly so.

  5. Robyn Griffiths 8 Feb 2011, 4:02pm

    As a Transgender woman myself I find this Job Centres’s attitude disgusting and possibly unlawful. I must admit I wouldn’t know how my local job centre would react if I had to go to them to help in finding a job. It is a worrying story but I hope isolated

  6. ‘or if possible ‘pass as white’ to get work.’
    But it is not possible for a Black person to do that, so the analogy is wrong

  7. Just to add a boring air of balance to these comments… the claim is only that: a claim.

    If it’s true it’s totally unacceptable. But IF is a big word.

    Let’s not condemn the Jobcentre just yet.

  8. I had a similar sort of experience from A4E the DWP training course provider yesterday

    I was forced to partake of the services of A4E by the department of work and pensions.

    Left the course in tears at around 11:30 yesterday – the bastards made me cry with the constant humiliation. I spoke to the manager and was told it was my fault for going in dressed as me. I had no protection whenever the tutor called my name a course member would say its not a woman its a man and would not get admonished by the tutor, instead he would just smile.

    I took part in three so called group tasks, every time the tutor put me in a group of one ie myself.

    Then when I complained to the manager it was my fault for putting on my clothes!!!!!!!!!!

    I felt like jumping off the bridge and ending it on my way home.

    I don’t think the the DWP have any policy for helping trans people back into work.

    I have made formal complaints about my treatment to the Job Centre and A4E today.

    No doubt MMMMMMMMMMM will call this a hysterical post too ,like he always does

  9. Robyn Griffiths 8 Feb 2011, 4:27pm

    Helen that is disgusting and totally uncalled for. Everyone to do with that course should get their P45′s without delay. The others on the course should also be ashamed of themselves. It is not your fault you are the way you are but it is their fault they humilated you the way they did

  10. Rachy-Roo 8 Feb 2011, 5:06pm

    Helen, you made a really good point and you put it very well. Why did you have to cheapen it with that closing remark about Mmmm?

  11. Helen, how recently was this? It sounds like something from the 50s. So much for Labour’s equality machine. For all their boll0cks about Action 4 Employment etc they should have been concentrating on equality issues as much as employment issues.

  12. OrtharRrith 8 Feb 2011, 5:25pm

    I truely hope that those involved in this transphobic incident loose their jobs over this. They deserve nothing less. Disgusting treatment and one that fills me with concern. I’ve had to go to the job centre on occasion in the past and it’s safe to say they do not have a clue how to treat transpeople.

  13. these idiots should lose their job -but of course they won’t.

  14. This Job Centre is not fit for purpose. Imagine the outcry if a Muslim woman had been told to remove her headscarf if she wanted to get a job…

    Thgis complaint needs following up. What the Job Centre did was illegal.

  15. Transphobic and transphobic nonsense.

  16. TheSuburbanBi 8 Feb 2011, 6:18pm

    ” @ Nikki: ‘or if possible ‘pass as white’ to get work.’ But it is not possible for a Black person to do that, so the analogy is wrong ”

    Of course it is, Nikki. The history of it is long indeed. Hence the very term “passing.” Books have been written on it, films have been done, generations have dealt with the results of “passing” and/or the refusal to do so.

  17. @Nikki,

    It is the very absurdity and inhumanity of asking a black person to pass as white which enhances the analogy and makes it work.

    Helen you have my sympathy and support, I may not understand Trans issues from the inside but I do know that laughing at someone for who they are is one of the basest of human traits and has no place in a civilised society.

  18. Helen, that’s absolutely an terrible experience to have to go through! I hope you’ll think about complaining formally; you *really* deserve better treatment.

  19. Stacy Drude 8 Feb 2011, 6:56pm

    I too was asked if I could “go back” by an Employment counselor at the Unemployment Office in North St. Paul, MN. At the time I had been on hormones for 2 years, had facial feminization surgery and was living full-time as a female. I understand how hard it is to find work as a Trans-person. Although I’m seriously under employed, I give high praise to my current part-time retail employer.

  20. OrtharRrith 8 Feb 2011, 7:05pm

    Indeed, don’t let them get away with it Helen. They need to learn that they can’t ridicule transpeople, any more then they can black people, Jewish people, gays or any other minority group.

  21. This country is virulently homophobic/transphobic so no shock there. I had a trans friend who could not leave her flat in east london, because of constant assault . Anyhow she committed suicide and all her neighbours had a party to celebrate. So not shocking that this is happening , its endemic in 2011 britain.

  22. Helen

    “I had a similar sort of experience from A4E the DWP training course provider yesterday

    I was forced to partake of the services of A4E by the department of work and pensions.

    Left the course in tears at around 11:30 yesterday – the bastards made me cry with the constant humiliation. I spoke to the manager and was told it was my fault for going in dressed as me. I had no protection whenever the tutor called my name a course member would say its not a woman its a man and would not get admonished by the tutor, instead he would just smile.

    I took part in three so called group tasks, every time the tutor put me in a group of one ie myself.

    Then when I complained to the manager it was my fault for putting on my clothes!!!!!!!!!!

    I felt like jumping off the bridge and ending it on my way home.

    I don’t think the the DWP have any policy for helping trans people back into work.

    I have made formal complaints about my treatment to the Job Centre and A4E today.

    No doubt MMMMMMMMMMM will call this a hysterical post too ,like he always does”

    As you’ve invited me to comment, I will. If this account is true, it’s outrageous and you should pursue this through the necessary channels. The DWP and all its affiliates should have very rigorous equalities policies, not to mention well-developed grievance procedures. Presumably there are witnesses from the course that you can call on, where necessary.

    On the other hand, like with many of your other posts, this seems so far-fetched, that I am really not sure whether I believe you. It’s only an online forum and this is just my opinion, so you can disregard this at will. But given that prejudice, discrimination and transphobia seems to befall you with such gross disproportion to anyone else, I am starting to wonder whether you aren’t actually writing down a few fantasy scenarios to get attention.

    Let’s analyse:

    A) The stories you recount – full of self-pity, self-victimising, lamenting on you being the ONLY one who is affected by every scenarion

    B) No mention of anyone ever being supportive towards you and, to be honest, no positive comments ever made on any subject. Even when you are congratulating a legal ruling in our favour you always have to reiterate unnecessarily just how bad ‘everything is’.

    C) The hysteria and paranoia that you exude in nigh-on EVERY post

    D) The fact that you have even included ME (of all people) in this post as a way to attract my attention to your apparent suffering…..it just screams out that you want me to feel sorry for you, like you do everyone else.

    So, I’m afraid I am not inclined to believe you. Even if there is truth in this, I am not convinced there is much of it, just a lot of emotional padding.

    What this does all indicate is that you are clearly not happy with your life and that, even coming from someone like you whose opinions I have little time for, is not something I would like to see.

  23. Rapture

    It is very sad to hear about your friend. But to say that the UK is virulently homophobic/transphobic is a gross and dangerous exaggeration. We have almost full equality in law, more than just a handful of countries in the world. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of the UK being at least ‘tolerant’ of us. Not exactly flattering, but it implies that we are safe among the majority. Basing your views of the whole country on just your experiences alone is tarring everyone with the same brush – the disgusting kind of generalisation that LGBT people constantly criticise the majority for. Just because you are a minority does not mean you have the right to do that any more than they do.

  24. If what I’m saying is not true mmmmmmmmmmm why would I post on my Facebook on Monday this:

    Helen Wilson
    Currently getting ignored and left out of all group activities, its like I don’t exist or they don’t want me to exist. A4E are deliberately bullying me, I’m not going back after lunch this treatment is killing me! *cry*
    Monday at 10:25 via Mobile Web
    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/profile.php?id=100000349801524

    or on the Angles forum this:

    Helen_Wilson_35 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:28 am

    Today I had every ounce of confidence striped from me by A4E, on a job centre training course that turned into three hours of transphobia until I walked out of it. Walking home I seriously considered jumping off a bridge and have been in tears for most of the day. But tomorrow I need to channel that hurt and make sure people are held accountable for what happened.

    http://www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18906&p=289681#p289681

    I had no idea this story even existed when I made those posts. This is something that is very raw for me, so how dare you try an discredit me. After all I am the one who is quite happy to reveal my identity and not hiding. You seem to have a mental issue that makes you feel you can abuse me mmmmmmm. I’m not playing this sick game, debate the issue/comment not the person.

    You continually use the intellectually lazy method of character assassination instead of debate. You can make good points sometimes, but they get discounted because you ridicule other posters.

    I think you owe me a apology

  25. @ mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm to say that we ” have almost full equality in law “only, you are actually implying a generalisation and fact that we are not equal in this country , which is in essence homophobic , a sexual apartheid. your generalisations of the majority of the uk being tolerant maybe based on your limited view and you are wrong. To combat injustice , you must first awknowledge it. you appear as very passive ,almost pathetic and accepting that we must count our blessings because we’re allegedly slightly more evolved. I was referring to the uk not making contrasts with another country.

  26. George Jack 9 Feb 2011, 7:51am

    We don’t know what really happened at the Job Centre. But the reality is yes, your employment opportunities will probably increase significantly if, in this case, you dress as a man. It may be unpalatable but it is a reality. And of course it doesn’t make it right. But pretenting otherwise won’t help you find a job either.

  27. as the person wants to be a woman then they shouldn’t be told to dress like a man and they should be respected, once you start telling people what to dress like then what next? telling people not be part of the various groups someone don’t like – eg over-weight, black etc
    @Helen – A4E couldn’t organise a booze-up in a brewery or find their bum with a map as the local one is also very useless, they do the very miminum on equality

  28. George Jack 9 Feb 2011, 11:12am

    “once you start telling people what to dress like then what next? ”

    We don’t live in an equality bubble. We are told how to dress all the time. Suits, smart casual whatever. We can protest about this all we like but it won’t make us more employable or accepted.

  29. OrtharRrith 9 Feb 2011, 11:14am

    Annoyingly it opted not to post my comment so I’ll try again!

    “We don’t know what really happened at the Job Centre. But the reality is yes, your employment opportunities will probably increase significantly if, in this case, you dress as a man. It may be unpalatable but it is a reality. And of course it doesn’t make it right. But pretenting otherwise won’t help you find a job either.”

    @Goerge Jack: That’s a very slippery path there George. Allow me to explain.
    Firstly, Gender Identity Clinics require transpeople to live, work and breath as their target gender 24/7. You HAVe to do it or you’re out of the program; no if’s, no buts, no “well we will let it slide” There is no choice in the matter.
    So what you’ve just said is in effect “You can’t work AND have GRS”.

    Secondly, you’ve also just told us to “go back into the closet”. I’m sure that’s not what you where actually saying, but that’s the effect of it. If for example a transwoman has to dress like a man to get work, then she’ll have to dress that way to remain working – or face the possibilty of loosing her job. So that’s the majority of her daily life is then living a lie and being unable to be who she really is. Just like it was before she came out! That’s incredably stressful, as many transpeople will tell you. It leads to depression – I know, I’ve been there. It hurts when people address you the way you know they shouldn’t – and that’s even BEFORE a person comes out as trans. To build up the courage and the strength to say “Enough! This is who I really am” and then to be told “fair enough, now go back in order to get work” would crush people. We get that from those we encounter who don’t beleive us as it is, for employment agencies and employers to say it too is too much!
    Suicides amongst transpeople would increase dramatically!!!
    You can’t put the genie back into the bottle, not without major emotional trauma and consequenses. And no one should be made to do so. There isn’t a being in Heaven or on Earth that could make me go back for the sake of a job, and NO ONE should be allowed to even try.

  30. I am a FtM trans guy who is currently on job seekers, (after finishing a Masters degree in the middle of a recession) and this is exactly why I don’t let them know of the voluntary work that I do for the trans community. I feel I have to be stealth in case of any upset or risk to myself. My heart goes out to Miss Cook, and hopefully this member of staff will be sacked – no discipline or warnings. They have all been through equality training and they should no better.

    @Nikki – The anology that Janet Scott offered isn’t wrong. It isn’t about whether someone CAN pass as something else, – it is about whether they are demeaned by the ignorance involved in the asking of such a thing to, as ‘TheSurburbanBi’ put it, ‘to appease bigots.’

    EB

  31. @George Jack – and so? does that mean when you are meant to live and dress as a woman that you must stop cos of idiots? She’s going to be a she now and they must deal with that and not be idiots to her

  32. Daniel Pitt 9 Feb 2011, 1:27pm

    This is blatant discrimination – in that position I would sue.

  33. Helen

    “If what I’m saying is not true mmmmmmmmmmm why would I post on my Facebook on Monday this:

    Helen Wilson
    Currently getting ignored and left out of all group activities, its like I don’t exist or they don’t want me to exist. A4E are deliberately bullying me, I’m not going back after lunch this treatment is killing me! *cry*
    Monday at 10:25 via Mobile Web
    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/profile.php?id=100000349801524

    or on the Angles forum this:

    Helen_Wilson_35 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:28 am

    Today I had every ounce of confidence striped from me by A4E, on a job centre training course that turned into three hours of transphobia until I walked out of it. Walking home I seriously considered jumping off a bridge and have been in tears for most of the day. But tomorrow I need to channel that hurt and make sure people are held accountable for what happened.

    http://www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18906&p=289681#p289681

    This is the biggest shooting of oneself in the foot I have ever seen! The fact that you have broadcast this in such a self-pitying, cringeworthy manner across the entire blogosphere so that everyone sees your ‘misery’ just confirms my wariness of your attention-seeking, hysterical and quite frankly irritating sensibilities. You clearly love revelling in your misery and getting people to pity you. It’s almost like Munchausen’s. The fact it is on at least three sites just shows how much you want to maximise your opportunities to get that attention. Are you Kerry Katona’s long-lost twin or something? It’s also particularly distasteful that you make threats of suicide, specifically to get attention, not because you necessarily feel that way. You disgust me and it grossly negates against your claims of humiliation at the A4E course. To be honest, I am more convinced now that it was in your head, or at least most if it was. Every detail is exaggerated, just for effect. I am almost gobsmacked!

    “I had no idea this story even existed when I made those posts.”

    But you chose to cash in on the story by putting out your own account – I mean are you this competitive for attention with everything in life?

    “This is something that is very raw for me, so how dare you try an discredit me.”

    You’ve discridted yourself from what you wrote all by yourself, you didn’t need me to do that.

    “After all I am the one who is quite happy to reveal my identity and not hiding.”

    You reveal it because you want that attention more than most people here. A good reason for not revealing ones identity is that there are a few nutters, a bit like you, on here. If you are this paranoid about your own life, there’s every chance you could end up a stalker. With the likes of you on here, I’m not taking that risk!

    “You seem to have a mental issue that makes you feel you can abuse me mmmmmmm.”

    If you class the democratic right to question someone’s views and accounts of events, then yes I must have a mental illness. Though given what you have broadcast to the internet, I doubt many would see me as not being quite the full ticket.

    “I’m not playing this sick game, debate the issue/comment not the person.”

    You open yourself up to criticism from what you write. Put more rational posts down and it won’t happen.

    “You continually use the intellectually lazy method of character assassination instead of debate.”

    This coming from the woman who has just said I have a mental illness. You are quite the joke of the day. Every day.

    “You can make good points sometimes, but they get discounted because you ridicule other posters.”

    When those other posters portray themselves as ridiculous, then yes, they incite ridicule.

    “I think you owe me a apology”

    You think a lot of things, but most of them aren’t actually happening. A bit like an apology from me.

  34. Rapture

    “@ mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm to say that we ” have almost full equality in law “only, you are actually implying a generalisation and fact that we are not equal in this country , which is in essence homophobic , a sexual apartheid.”

    Erm, I know we don’t have full equality, that’s why I said we have ALMOST full equality, which we do. How is that a generalisation? A generalisation is a subjective attitude open to interpretation, whereas the number of laws we haveto protect us can actually be physically counted. Laws therefore cannot be generalised. There is no sexual apartheid. Inequality, but the UK is hardly a sexual orientation remake of South Africa in 1982. Stop exaggerating.

    “your generalisations of the majority of the uk being tolerant maybe based on your limited view and you are wrong.”

    And your proof that you are right is what? That every gay man gets beaten and tortured day in day out, that homosexuality is criminalised, that people don’t write on online forums or speak out in public that they support us? I’m not sure what ‘evidence’ you need to see how tolerant the UK is in comparison to 20 years ago and with respect to other states. YOUR view is that of someone who is very paranoid.

    “To combat injustice , you must first awknowledge it.”

    Yes, which is why we’re all on this site. That doesn’t mean we can invent instances of justice to make ourselves feel better when it’s not actually there.

    “you appear as very passive ,almost pathetic and accepting that we must count our blessings because we’re allegedly slightly more evolved.”

    Evolved? Sorry are we talking about humans versus homo erectus now? Seriously, joking aside, I have never inferred that we should count our blessings and rest on our laurels. What I have said is that we shouldn’t potray the reality that exists for gay people in society as being worse than it actually is, which is the tendency of many people on here. Including you, it would seem. Playing the perpetual victim means that we get negative press. If that happens, we lose empathy and respect from those we have already convinced.

    Focus on REAL cases of injustice and not those that exist only in the heads of the most paranoid LGBT people.

    I was referring to the uk not making contrasts with another country.”

  35. @mmmmmmmm – the more you rant and attack others the worst you look,
    sometimes people repeat what upsets them the most or what affects them strongly

  36. Chester

    “@mmmmmmmm – the more you rant and attack others the worst you look,
    sometimes people repeat what upsets them the most or what affects them strongly”

    Whilst I would agree that some people do repeat these things because they are painful, I’ve never known anyone do so on here as much as Helen. It’s also a matter of how that testimony is put across stylistically. Making a statement of facts about an event is not the same as exaggerating it Daily Mail style, littered with hyperbole and overtones of delirium. Nobody takes that kind of account seriously. It’s quite undignified and, unfortunately, words are powerful. If the author chooses to submit a post of that nature every single day, they will annoy and repel.

    Do you honestly think it is healthy for someone to put such details on their Facebook and numerous other sites in the manner that she did? It just smacks of someone who has little respect for herself or those she demands listen to her endless ‘misery’. It’s not much different to putting up with the irrational bleatings of Melanie Phillips.

  37. @ Helen

    I’m really sorry to hear about your recent experience with Action 4 Employment. It’s important that those involved are shown that this kind of abuse is not acceptable. If you need any support working on a formal complaint, please don’t hesitate to ask.

  38. If you don’t like what I say mmmmmmm the don’t read my posts. You will NEVER bully me off of these pages with cheap character assassination.

    I’m a human being and I put my emotion and shared experiences in my posts it expresses my common humanity. I see that as a strength not a weakness.

    If you feel incapable of relating to others, that’s a problem for you to deal with not me.

    This is the last time I will reply to you.

  39. A4E can be idiots anyway as I was told one reason to work is to find girls and I’m a gay guy, places like this can be useless to complain to as one similar blamed me for all of their stupidity and the jobcentre done nothing\
    good luck complaining

    many people don’t ever try to understand what it means to be trans and many at the jobcentre only care about getting their targets achieved

  40. Helen

    ” If you don’t like what I say mmmmmmm the don’t read my posts.”

    Well don’t drag me into it by saying “yeah, I’m sure mmmmmm will disagree with me”. If you didn’t care what I thought, you would just ignore me. I do actually care what you say because it’s neurotic drivel and anyone who is impressionable on here, especially someone who has just come out, would probably be terrified unnecessarily about what fate befalls LGBT people.

    “You will NEVER bully me off of these pages with cheap character assassination.”

    Nobody was trying to. Again, that’s your interpretation of ‘bullying’, usually consisting of mere ‘justified criticism’. Perhaps you should listen to some of it and reflect on how you conduct yourself – both on here and in any external pursuits of scaremongering and attention-seeking that you engage in.

    “I’m a human being and I put my emotion and shared experiences in my posts it expresses my common humanity. I see that as a strength not a weakness.”

    Seeking attention and attempting to manipulate people’s emotions with far-fetched and unrealistic sob stories is NOT a strength, it is a weakness. A frank, sober and well-written piece conveying ones emotions possesses a form of dignity that you are obviously not interested in pursuing. Strong people don’t past their exaggerated tales of woe on every blog and social networking site going day after day in a bizarre bid to ‘be someone’. You’re the Pink News equivalent of Jordan, Kerry Katona and Louis Spence rolled combined.

    “If you feel incapable of relating to others, that’s a problem for you to deal with not me.”

    I don’t feel that way a all. But I am sure as hell not interested in even attempting to relate to someone who is afflicted by paranoia and fantasy as yourself. How could I relate to someone who is so openly unashamed of their love of hysteria?

    “This is the last time I will reply to you.”

    I’m so offended and distraught, I just might cry! It would make my day, but I doubt you’ll hold that promise because, despite it being negative, I’m the one who gives you the most attention on here. It doesn’t matter to you whether it’s good or bad, so long as someone is interacting with you.

  41. @mmmmmmmmmmmmmm i could not be bothered reading all your rant , as you got too tedious after a sentence or two. you clearly are a bit of a sad case loser with no life but to stalk people online with your ridiculous drivel. you are in a bubble ,sheltered and lack empathy with inequalities faced by lgbt people so because your life is so sheltered from the harsh reality , anyone who tries to educate you that such injustice exists is somehow exaggerating .we live in a country where a gay man is murdered in the central square of a capital city by a teenager, yea right ,its so tolerant here in your mind. you need a reality check and hopefully you will get it .

  42. @helen, thats just typical of the discrimination in the uk, well for those of us out of the closet anyhow. it’s a shame there are some self loathing, treacherous members of the lgbt community who are unable to recognise this obvious discrimination like mmmmmmmmmmm. anyhow good luck.

  43. Rapture

    “@mmmmmmmmmmmmmm i could not be bothered reading all your rant , as you got too tedious after a sentence or two.”

    Would you comment in a meetng if you hadn’t read all the relevant papers based on the fact they were tedious? No, because you’d look like a fool. As you do here. I don’t care what YOU think of my posts, don’t comment on them unless you’ve read them. Gimp.

    “you clearly are a bit of a sad case loser with no life but to stalk people online with your ridiculous drivel.”

    Isn’t that Helen? You know the one who posts on endless forums in order to get pity and empathy from as many people she can? Stalking? Now you are really ovexaggerating. This is an anonymous, online forum, none of us have any idea who the others are. Fool.

    ” you are in a bubble ,sheltered and lack empathy with inequalities faced by lgbt people so”

    And your evidence for that is what exactly? Oh, because I disagree with you and Helen, I am automatically ruled out. Ah, yeah, that’s democracy isn’t it. Presumably even reading this tosh news site everyday would make even the most naive idiot aware of LGBT issues. Given that I volunteered in LGTB issues and studies while at university (plus, that samll fact of being gay), I probably know more than you do. Hence why people like you and Helen get so much criticism as you are th eone living in the bubbles of paranoia, making out that axe-wielding nutters are on every street corener just waiting to attack us. The pair of you should be locked up!

    “because your life is so sheltered from the harsh reality , anyone who tries to educate you that such injustice exists is somehow exaggerating.”

    You ARE exaggerating that’s the point. Even wth all the stats and testimonials in the world to show you that the situation is nowhere near as bad as you make out would never convince you. Simply because you want to BELIEVE that this fictitious world in your head is reality. Playing the victim is a career for people like you. There are always a few loose screws in society and you two are representing them very well on this thread.

    “we live in a country where a gay man is murdered in the central square of a capital city by a teenager, yea right ,its so tolerant here in your mind.”

    ONE gay man is killed out of a few million and that means that homophobia is rife? There you go, making gross exaggerations yet again. There will always be the odd nutter, no policies or equalities laws will stop that. You’re blowing it all up to make it look as if one gay man is killed every day. And that is very dangerous – impressionable young people are on here and with all your scaremongering stories, you’re probably convincing them not to come out by painting a picture of a lawless society where LGBT are scared to leave their own homes. You are such s div!

    “you need a reality check and hopefully you will get it .”

    What, you mean you hope I get beaten up so that I can then come crawling to you and say that you were right? Get stuffed. If anything happened to me, I’d be mad, but I wouldn’t suddenly think the situation was any more dangerous than it is now.

    You are doing our cause a lot of damage and the best thing you can do is go back into your padded room and leave well alone.

    “it’s a shame there are some self loathing, treacherous members of the lgbt community who are unable to recognise this obvious discrimination like mmmmmmmmmmm. anyhow good luck.”

    Ah, there you go. The cry of the insecure, people-fearing, permavictim. ‘You don’t agree with me, so you must hate yourself’. If I hated anyone, it would be you. But hate is very strong and as much as I dislike your views, I wouldn’t go so far as to say I detest you.

    I have a lot of love for myself. It may not have the same power to emotionally blackmail people like playing the victim, but happiness is better than living off other people’s empathy. I make no apologies for liking myself or being confident.

  44. Suburban Bi pointed out on another thread that mmm seems to have a go at trans women on these threads. I noticed that too. This is because he hates people playing the victim card, and trans women have quite a lot of abuse and discrimination to report. If you want non-anecdotal evidence, the statistics don’t make happy reading either.

    Now, mmm has to ask himself at some point if the high incidence of victimhood he’s perceiving is indeed ‘hysteria’. Or could it be that trans women DO indeed face a great deal of discrimination? In some cases, on a constant daily basis? It’s a bit like that ancient reaction to a woman saying she’s been discriminated against: “She’s just being hysterical, a typical woman.” A prejudice that women are hysterics incapable of logic is born, and any woman who gets upset about it is being conveniently hysterical.

    Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ (inverted commas because as a proper Christian I believe they are actually Old Testament groupies) sometimes drag out the statistics about homosexuality being ‘bad for your health’. They ignore the fact that it is the very discrimination they mete out that is bad for people’s health. Sometimes people react to discrimination by playing the victim card and so on. It’s a natural human reaction. Nobody’s perfect ;) So even if you DO think someone is being hysterical or acting improperly, you have to ask yourself ‘why’.

    Much as it would be wonderful to go around singing “I am what I am” from the rooftops everyday, this is grubby reality we inhabit here. So mmm, in Helen’s case…on a quest for a job, you’re made to go on a course, the kind of thing you just want to attend and get over with. Then suddenly you’re in a position where there is an idiot in charge who lets the other idiots have a go at you and question your identity. As you point out, mmm, you have to start asserting your rights, take people to task and complain. This is effort and work, once you’ve got over the shock. You might end up in the local news or something, which could make you look ‘difficult’ and potentially litigious, so it will be even harder to get a job. Or – you take their reaction to heart and dress as a man in other situations like this, living with the knowledge that you are denying ‘who you really are’ in order to have an approximation of the life that everybody else has, and the burden of knowing that by backing down you’ve potentially made it difficult for other people to come out.

    All these complex moral problems from one tiny everyday experience!

    I’m a ‘tell them to get stuffed’ kind of person who would be tempted to give someone a good kicking if they spoke to me like a second class citizen. However, I’m aware that financially and emotionally I’m in a position not to give a toss – get me in another year, another situation, and it could well be a very different story.

    Being honest, I think I had similar views to mmm when I was a lot younger. It’s a little bit like “well it’s legal now, there’s no problem – what are all these gays whinging about, I don’t discriminate, I don’t see any discrimination”. But the real world is more complex than a statute book and there’s more out there than our own experience. At some point you have to start listening and develop some compassion and empathy.

  45. Seahorse1

    “Suburban Bi pointed out on another thread that mmm seems to have a go at trans women on these threads. I noticed that too.”

    I’m indiscriminate in my mocking of hysterical idiots. If you hadn’t been so ‘selective’ with your apparent evidence, you’d have noticed that I hand out ethical slaps to anyone who make dense comments. They shouldn’t think themselves so special. Like them, you are trying to find specific forms of descrimination where there are none, just for the sake of playing the victim card. Worse still, stop trying to cash in on their misery!

    “This is because he hates people playing the victim card, and trans women have quite a lot of abuse and discrimination to report.”

    I hate people playing the victim card when they either a) are not victims b) exaggerate every detail for effect and to attract attention. It undermines genuine cases of prejudice.

    “If you want non-anecdotal evidence, the statistics don’t make happy reading either.”

    No-one said they did. But the amount of hate crime implied by the likes of Helen are grossly disproportionate to the real situation. And it is wrong of her to imply that, so I will continue to condemn her where she does. It’s part of her own personal agenda of getting attention, empathy and pity where she doesn’t actually deserve it. No wonder people don’t take her seriously, it’s all self-induced.

    “Now, mmm has to ask himself at some point if the high incidence of victimhood he’s perceiving is indeed ‘hysteria’. Or could it be that trans women DO indeed face a great deal of discrimination?”

    They face discrimination, but not to the level implied by Helen. The stats show that. And also what about trans men? You seem to have forgotten that they get abuse too. Clearly prejudice against them doesn’t fit in with your own agenda.

    “In some cases, on a constant daily basis? It’s a bit like that ancient reaction to a woman saying she’s been discriminated against: “She’s just being hysterical, a typical woman.”

    That is a stereotype of women. But I haven’t called anyone that. Just hysterical and paranoid. The gender part is irrelevant. I’ve said it t many men on here – if you’d actually read my posts you’d have noticed.

    Another ten fairness points to me.

    “A prejudice that women are hysterics incapable of logic is born, and any woman who gets upset about it is being conveniently hysterical.”

    Anyone behaving like Helen is hysterical in my book. You are being prejudiced by making the assumption that only women can either be hysterical or are considered to be.

    “Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ (inverted commas because as a proper Christian I believe they are actually Old Testament groupies)sometimes drag out the statistics about homosexuality being ‘bad for your health’.

    And they get laughed at my the rational and scientific amongst us. The religious are a joke to most people in the UK. Even a lot of Chrsitians criticise other Christians for that kind of opinion.

    “Sometimes people react to discrimination by playing the victim card and so on. It’s a natural human reaction.”

    It’s natural for a five year old who has yet to develope a full understanding of the world. Not an adult, like, dare I say it, Helen.

    “Nobody’s perfect. So even if you DO think someone is being hysterical or acting improperly, you have to ask yourself ‘why’.

    Because they are seeking attention.

    “Much as it would be wonderful to go around singing “I am what I am” from the rooftops everyday, this is grubby reality we inhabit here.”

    But why would you need to do that if you were ACTUALLY happy with who you were? It’s only me that needs to known what/who I am, I don’t need everyone else’s validation. It’s only the most insecure that feel the need to tell everyone repeatedly that they are gay/trans etc. Those of us who are happy with ourselves just get on with things. There is a lot of truth in the least confident being the ones who brag the most, dress the most provocatively or show desperation for a relationship.

    “So mmm, in Helen’s case…on a quest for a job, you’re made to go on a course, the kind of thing you just want to attend and get over with. Then suddenly you’re in a position where there is an idiot in charge who lets the other idiots have a go at you and question your identity. As you point out, mmm, you have to start asserting your rights, take people to task and complain.”

    Absolutely. But Helen ran off and cried. From the way she asserts herself on here, I can only assume that she was just dying for someone to say something so she play the part of the victim all over again. She is an opportunist, I am amazed you cannot see that. She should have asked to see someone above that person and filed a complaint. If that doesn’t work, you go to the next person or the police – whoever is most appropriate.

    “This is effort and work, once you’ve got over the shock. You might end up in the local news or something, which could make you look ‘difficult’ and potentially litigious, so it will be even harder to get a job.”

    Not at all, it depends on how you portray yourself. If you play the victim by over-indulging in the apparent discrimination in the local rag, then people will pick up on that. And presumably, if you have any character at all, you will be able to win people over at interview anyway.

    “Or – you take their reaction to heart and dress as a man in other situations like this, living with the knowledge that you are denying ‘who you really are’ in order to have an approximation of the life that everybody else has, and the burden of knowing that by backing down you’ve potentially made it difficult for other people to come out.”

    That is the test of your strength of character. If you take it to heart and crumble, then you will lose out. If you fight the cause, you will win. It’s just Darwinism – that applies to all living things. Mental strength is just as much a part of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mantra as the physical. Sometimes you have to battle hard, but if you use the right channels and you are prepared to have a little patience, then you will succeed and win over those who have sought to discriminate against you.

    “All these complex moral problems from one tiny everyday experience!”

    They do, but the person affected is the main part of the solution, not necessarily the authorities.

    “I’m a ‘tell them to get stuffed’ kind of person who would be tempted to give someone a good kicking if they spoke to me like a second class citizen.”

    So would I. You won’t catch me crying until I’ve had my head beaten in, in which case it is overwhelmingly obvious that I have been discriminated against and I can be all teh victim I want.

    “However, I’m aware that financially and emotionally I’m in a position not to give a toss – get me in another year, another situation, and it could well be a very different story.”

    We’re all in that boat, there’s a crisis on dontchyaknow!

    “Being honest, I think I had similar views to mmm when I was a lot younger.”

    Stop with the ageist patronising, it is the second weakest argument after Godwin’s Law. If you think that being older (I have no idea of your age) somehow automatically renders you wiser and more understanding, then you are naive.

    “It’s a little bit like “well it’s legal now, there’s no problem – what are all these gays whinging about, I don’t discriminate, I don’t see any discrimination”.

    It is indeed true that there are still problems despite legal changes. But that doesn’t mean people can still claim that things are just as hard, if not harder, than they were before. That level of change has to be noted and our outward behaviour in teh knowledge of that protection has to change too. Many on here act as if it’s still illegal!

    “But the real world is more complex than a statute book and there’s more out there than our own experience.”

    I concur.

    “At some point you have to start listening and develop some compassion and empathy.”

    I have plenty for people that genuiney deserve it. I had empathy for Helen when I first read her posts – I give everyone the benefit of the doubt at the beginning. Then I realised every post was the same and there was clear exaggeration in every single one. I lost empathy for her. That’s her fault, not mine. I can only judge people on how they portray theymselves. That’s life. It’s her that should accept certain facts of life instead of me givin her false pity just because it will make her ‘feel better’.

  46. mmm: “And also what about trans men? You seem to have forgotten that they get abuse too. Clearly prejudice against them doesn’t fit in with your own agenda.”

    This made me chuckle. I’m FTM. The thread is about MTF which is why I focussed on that.

  47. What a joke 10 Feb 2011, 1:59pm

    @ Helen. That sounds like a bad day. I hope you’ve got over it. Never let the bastards get you down.

    @ mmmmmmmmmmm
    You comments smell like puke. You’re worse than spanner, whose filth seems to have disappeared and transmigrated into you.
    Who the fvck do you think you are to doubt Helen’s life. You vile piece of scum.

  48. What a joke 10 Feb 2011, 2:01pm

    and stop filling the comments with your long thesis’ on nonsense, no one is interested.

  49. Seahorse1

    “This made me chuckle. I’m FTM. The thread is about MTF which is why I focussed on that.”

    Glad you can laugh at yourself, that comment just made you look thick!

    What a joke

    “and stop filling the comments with your long thesis’ on nonsense, no one is interested.”

    A) you can’t ACTUALLY order me to stop, so enough lecturing

    B) apparently you’re quite interested, as you keep replying, though I appreciate that not being very intelligent, these long explanations of mine are probably a bit challenging for you

    Any more losers want to have a go?

  50. @ mmmmmmmm still not read your full comment but find you laughable that i’ve rattled you so much, you must be sitting down seething at the screen now waiting, existing in the hope someone will signify you. you are a simpleton.

  51. Jock S. Trap 11 Feb 2011, 9:39am

    Seriously mmmm… you wonder why I call you a bigot. Your clearly a nasty little creep who loves nothing more than living off others peoples misery.

    Your are quite possibly the most boring person on here, no different from the other religious gay/trans hating nutjobs we get on here.

  52. @ mmmmmmmmmmm

    Any more losers want to have a go?

    Your comment says more about you than anything I could add.

  53. Roger

    “@ mmmmmmmmmmm

    Any more losers want to have a go?

    Your comment says more about you than anything I could add.”

    But you wouldn’t have anything to add to the debate anyway, which is why you haven’t and have, instead, just added a snipe.

    Not very clever are you.

  54. The reported attitudes of Jobcentre staff, and those of their contractors providing services seems to confirm that the anti-discrimination training they get is inadequate.

    It would seem that a belief that claimants have just made a shallow, perverse, lifestyle choice, perhaps in order to avoid employment, is not uncommon.

    I have heard real horror stories of some trainers from transgender groups (for whom such training has been a major source of income before budgets were cut) leaving even sympathetic staff confused and cynical. God only knows what is said by companies providing general diversity training who have no direct experience of trans issues.

    Ultimately it is the responsibility of the minister, but, with thousands of staff and hundreds of offices serving millions, if people sell themselves as actual members of the communities capable of providing training that will end discrimination, when they cannot, and instead reinforce or create fresh prejudice and bad practice, they must take some of the blame.

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