What delicious moral greyness.
I’m just waiting for the transphobes and bigots who read the daily Hate-Mail and the Scum to sink their teeth into this.
There needs to be a humane way of dealing with those transsexual criminals who are yet to undergo GRS. They don’t deserve to go to a prison of their birth gender, that is tantamount to torture and would likely lead to their rape, assault and perhaps even murder.
The problem with the current situation is that it can lead to a back-lash against all transgender people.
One worrying thing about this story is that several papers have printed her address, a situation that could lead to people taking the law into their own hands.
Reported to Avon and Somerset Police who have circulated the BEP article to their officers. I felt they might have done more, such as recording a hate incident against BEP for allowing transphobic comments. We need a prison for trans. This is the umpteenth that’s been seen to be getting favourable treatment – it doesn’t help when trans are seen to be costing “taxpayer’s money”.
> There needs to be a humane way of dealing with
> those transsexual criminals who are yet to undergo GRS.
Why is it that we all get dubbed transgender unless there’s crime, when suddenly its “transsexual”?
And if you are going to use “Gender Reassignment Surgery” as your preferred term, then, again, why use “transsexual” instead of “transgender”?
> They don’t deserve to go to a prison of their birth
If our gender is inborn then that needs to be “birth sex”.
> …that is tantamount to torture and would
> likely lead to their rape, assault and perhaps even murder.
It is right that the court hesitated to send her to prison, but the results you predict are not based on real outcomes in UK prisons. Things are bad, but exaggeration tends to be counterproductive eventually.
Its not a persons gender identity or sexuality that commits a crime it the person themselves. When was the last time the media reported a persons religion in connection to petty crime.
We want answers how many Christians are convicted of shoplifting and assaults each year?
how many of them are given cushy community punishments instead of prison because of what’s seen as good conduct by being involved with a church!
While I deplore anyone dealing in drugs, its not this trans woman’s fault the prison service is unable to deal with transgender inmates. If the judge had sent her to a male prison, she would have a legitimate case against the prison service for inhumane and degrading treatment under article 3 of the human rights act.
“Why is it that we all get dubbed transgender unless there’s crime, when suddenly its “transsexual”?!
Sorry, but I was writing in regards to people not being imprisoned for crimes they have commited due to their need for GRS, that makes them transgender yes, but specifically transsexual, so I used that as my terminology in my comment.
Unless things have changed and I have missed it, as far as I am aware the term transsexual still refures to those who seek or have had GRS?
“If our gender is inborn then that needs to be “birth sex”.”
Indeed you are correct, I was writing the responce and not reading it through before posting it. I had intended to put “apparant birth gender” or “birth sex”. The effort was made to avoid confusion with the act of sex, rather then gender; that can sometimes arise during conversations I’ve had.
“but the results you predict are not based on real outcomes in UK prisons”
Predictions can not be based upon real outcomes, but regardless my opinion is based upon the bigotry faced by the non criminal trans population, amplified by being part of a closed prison population, particualrly when you can be sure that many present are not nice people. It is though just my opinion.
As Liz says a prison for trans prisoners seems the best answer, probably not affordable though.
I’m glad to see that the judge had the common sence to go lightly on this woman. I agree, the woman would probably be raped and beaten to death if she went to a mens prison.
> how many of them are given cushy community punishments instead of prison because of what’s seen as good conduct by being involved with a church!
Is this rhetoric or is this really a proper issue of mitigation in the UK?
de Villiers is right. Surely a two year suspended sentence and six month curfew should stop her from re-offending – and if she does re-offend, she’s lost her chance. Seems perfectly fair for me, regardless of trans status.
Getting fed up with stories of people getting preferential treatement when it comes to sentencing by the courts.
My motto is….IF you cant do the crime, DONT do the crime, if you do you suffer the consequences and your gender, or the problems you have with it, should not affect the sentence the judge passes.
Selling ketamine, though a classC drug, is an offence and should be dealt with. Thie person has caused misery to people whom she has supplied this drug as i know of people who are now damaged by taking this stuff. Im getting fed up with people playing “their card” to get lighter sentences. .
Watch this space, whats the betting the person concerned will get done with it again
Im getting fed up with people playing “their card” to get lighter sentences.
She has not played anything, its the inability of the prison service to cater for transgender prisoners that got her off.
Why should people be let off the hook? They were transgender / transexual when they committed the crime, so were well aware of the consequences should they be caught. I understand it would be a terrible situation for anyone like that to end up in a men’s prison, but then all the more reason not to transgress in the first place.
Should trans people be allowed to do what they want simply because we don’t have the facilities to cater for them?
curious statements here. As a post op t.s. certainly times prior to transitioning were a mess. especially if one is not totally in the closet since we tend to be rather ugly ducklings and somewhat naturally the brunt of much discrimination making work and life options very limited. The whole idea of having a judge is to be able to interpret law so that it reflects its purpose (the spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law). If we simply say ‘if you do the crime, do the time’ we negate our judicial system making it a mockery of justice turing it into nothing but retribution
UPDATE: Have since spoken to Avon and Somerset LGBT who have checked on Jean Morris to make sure that she’s not been targetted by local vigilantes. All was well as of eight o’clock last night.
That the law should apply equally to everybody is quite unfair. Trans people, unless they can really pass, have a harder time of getting work, in particular work in a place where they are respected and not confronted to ongoing bullying.
So I totally understand that Trans people should choose, or be forced into, other type of activities where they can be more independent and fluid.
As for people who think selling ketamine is a bad because it can hurt people – there are many more people killed by cars every year than by drugs, all types combined. Should we blame the car dealers then ? Or is driving a car an informed choice people make ?
I’m happy this person got off, and I’m happy that the juge made a sensible decision.
“IF you cant do the crime, DONT do the crime, if you do you suffer the consequences and your gender, or the problems you have with it, should not affect the sentence the judge passes.”
Jean Morris broke the law and was convicted for it, she has a criminal record that will hound her through-out. Should she go to prison? Not as clear cut as it might first appear.
Look at it this way. People are sent to prison for the crimes they commit, they do their time for those crimes and are then free – in some cases to commit further crimes but that’s beside the point. For the vast majority of people that’s the be all and end all of it. For trans people thogh it’s more complicated. Yes like everyone, trans people who commit crimes should be punished for it, however, if you send a trans woman for example to a male prison then you are in effect creating a harsher punishment for any given crime then you would be if the person was cis-gender. You would then be forcing a transperson to exist as a member of their birth sex – a punishment in of itself – , denying them access to the medical help they need and putting them in potential danger (I stand by my earlier posts regarding my opinion of the threat to trans prisoners safety) in ADDITION to the sentence for the crime they have been found guilty of.
It also then brings into question what you are punishing said transperson for, their crime, their trans status or a combination of the two? If it’s either of the last two options then it is very wrong. And before someone cries “but it’s not! They would be sentenced for the crime they commited!” You’re wrong. Unless and until there is a prison specifically for transgender prisoners that can cater for the needs of those prisoners who are transssexual and require GRS and hormone treatments, then any prison sentence would be for a combination of their crime and their trans status, no matter what your intention actually was.
Prison isn’t supposed to be easy or comfortable, it’s certainly not supposed to be nice; but neither is it supposed to punish someone for being transgender.
I am relieved that Judges are able to see and understand that.
I’m not sure where the Gender Clinic will stand on her treatment, particularly as much of it is on the whim of the doctors there (or feels like it at any rate).
Excuse me if I use the wrong terminology or expressions here, but I’ll be fvcked if I’m going to walk on eggshells in order not to offend some prissy queen’s sensibilities:
One is born male or female.
One may choose to change their physical appearance to be another.
One may be sexually attracted to the same or opposite sex, or maybe both.
There are male and female prisons, both of which house many lesbian, gay and bisexual people.
It seems to me there are options for all eventualities. I see no reason why trans people cannot be jailed. If you see yourself as a man, you go to a men’s prison, or a woman, to a women’s prison. There are segregated areas for sex offenders, so I see no reason why they cannot adopt the same approach for Trans people. Either way you are going down.