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Christian group campaigns to have anti-gay app reinstated

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  1. i dont think Apple will allow the app back into the store – they have a record of supporting gay rights. Why don’t these morons set up there own web page and petition from there rather than than infect decent folk with their vile pollution.

    Ok off to see Marc Almond at the Shepherd’s Bush Empire :)

    of tosse marc Almond tonigh

  2. If Apple has such a sterling gay rights record, why did they permit the app in the first place? Time and time again, specifically the app store approval mechanism reveals itself as staffed by bigoted social conservatives. If Apple’s attitude to gay rights does not need overhauling, that of the app approval department certainly does. Though as it happens I’d prefer for them to address the human rights violations (resulting in employee suicide on multiple occasions) meted out by their manufacturer Foxconn first, because I think human life takes precedence. Apple’s addressing of neither issue is the principal reason they should be boycotted.

  3. I’m no apple fan but there are worse organisations to challenge first Ben.

  4. Ian Bower 2 Dec 2010, 6:38pm

    Sadly it’s available on facebook.

    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/ManhattanDeclaration

    Please report it to FB as hate.

  5. Hate groups are often persistent and don’t like to be outed as such, having the app removed must have been a blow to heterosexual suprematist extremist’s who support the Manhattan Declaration.

  6. I’m pretty sure hardly anyone had even heard of this declaration before the whole stink about that silly app… Now they’ve got almost 100,000 fans on a 10-day-old facebook page…

    If people who started protesting the app were really homophobes trying to promote this cause, they’ve done a great job.

  7. Wait, somebody protested the app and that makes them homophobes?

    Even the ppl on our side are apparently against us…

  8. Go to the Manhatten Group facebook and report them as a hate group, I did. Join the Anti-Mahatten Group site. If enough of us report them it will have an effect.

  9. “the group behind it says that it is “civil, reasoned, and respectful” and does not “promote hate or homophobia [and] is not anti-gay”.”
    So “the Manhatten Declaration” get to tell us if they’re homophobic or not, all the while telling everyone we’re immoral and drawing parallels between gay marriage and incest.
    Short of rounding us up and putting us in ghettos, how much more ******* homophobic can they get?
    Would Apple permit the KKK to post an ap instructing people to subscribe to their view that black people were genetically inferior? I somehow doubt it. But hey, if enough white supremacists want that ap, it must be alright, huh?
    Apple had better not cave in again.

  10. What losers! Haven’t ‘christians’ got anything better to do? Do they spend all their day thinking about sex? And gay sex at that, it seems.

    I don’t agree that protests against the app publicised the Manhattan Declaration. It was reasonably well known before this and has been mentioned on PN a number of times. Take a look and see how ‘christians’ don’t think the law applies to them:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Declaration:_A_Call_of_Christian_Conscience#Call_to_civil_disobedience

  11. What does this group think a petition is going to do, except create a list of bigots. Apple is a private company and can do as it pleases. Is this petition and the names published somewhere? I would like to know if my neighbors are on this list.

  12. 21stCenturySpirituality 2 Dec 2010, 11:38pm

    For me this is a matter of ethics. This group has a right to voice their opinion but I think the burden of proof is on them to present a valid and sound argument as to exactly why they consider a same sex sexual relationship to be ethicly problematic. Just saying ‘your wrong’ if you support gay relationships or marriage is not good enough in terms of sound ethical reasoning and arguement.

  13. Apple got a 100% rating from HRC on their equality index/

    Why dont all of us reading this item send an email to Apple demanding that the people who approved the “app” be sent to the unemplyment line.

    408-974-2042 USA number west coast.

    Tell them you are a journalist of some kind and give them a piece of your mind.

  14. Note I couldn’t fine an email addr for apple

  15. Jock S. Trap 3 Dec 2010, 6:48am

    Proof religion is hypocritical, destructive and just plain hateful.

    It’s typical that they be so ironic with their comments. They can’t see how “Immoral” and just plain offensive they are being. To yet again compare equal marriage with “sanctioning incest” is just nasty.

    Do we need more proof that such religious people need medical attention of some nature. This is what they consider Their religious Freedom. In other words “we should have the right to be as offensive as we want an stuff everyone else because it me, me, me that matters.”

    Disgusting, these people are wrong and the sooner the planet rids of this vermin the better.

    Lets hope Apple stick by it’s convictions. To do otherwise when I suspect there company is propped up by a large number from the LGBT community, would be a massive mistake.

  16. 21stCenturySpirituality 3 Dec 2010, 8:41am

    I would argue that is not proof that all religion is bad. Just because some people who have a religious perspective make particular ethical and moral decisions and judgements does not mean that all people who have a religious perspective follow the same pattern of ethical and moral thought. What I think this does show is that this particular group of religionists are very poor at presenting sound ethical arguements to support their moral judgements and assessments and that they have a parochial understanding and a limited awareness of Christian theology and spirituality.

  17. Jock S. Trap 3 Dec 2010, 10:11am

    So religious groups are lining up to condemn this group then??

  18. FeministSmithie 3 Dec 2010, 10:23am

    How can we get them to understand why their bigotry is hate speech? How can we wake them up to the harm they are effecting?

  19. Unfortunately the Manhattan Declaration itself is a campaign based on lies, distortions and paranoia.
    It exhorts Christians to become zealots and to break the law where there is conflict between the law and extremist Christian dogma.

    The Manhattan Declaration is itself an attempt to impose “Christian” beliefs and “morality” on the wider citizenship which exposes it as being against the notion of religious freedom rather than for it.

    Comparing & associating same sex relationships with incest shows anti-gay animus, it is defamatory and can only be construed as hateful.

  20. Jock, you sound just as hateful of religious groups, as they do of you. Calling them vermin! Saying they are all mental patients! And then you have the audacity to call them ‘nasty’. You need to take a look in the mirror before you pass judgement next time.
    Your hate of them is no better than theirs of you. In fact you use the same language to describe them, as they use to describe you. You are as big a bully as they are.
    So what’s the difference in your hate, and their hate? Nothing.
    Being hateful is fine if you know you are, but to take the moral high ground, which your comments always do, just reveals that you are as big a hypocrite when it comes to love and hate than the christians are. You judge groups you don’t understand, just like they do.
    Some homos people believe in God Jock. Weird, perhaps. But then so is voting for the tory party.
    Not all homos are atheists like you. Get over it.
    You should be ashamed of yourself for propagating such hate.

  21. Jock is not gay he’s a bnp or edl troll ignore it

  22. “Some homos people believe in God Jock. Weird, perhaps”

    Yes, its is. Not because you are gay and christian, but when you believe in a non proven entity, its for all intensive purpose in effectively believing in the imaginary. And grouops that follow the “will” of imaginary friends should be able to withstand scrutiny, whether you like it or not, especially when they are like call for the discrimination of others based on misguided beliefs and lies, as advocated by this “app”.

    Jock S Strap is quite right to call these people vermin when they compare equal marriage with “sanctioning incest”. This is supped to be “Christian” is it? This is what you support, this belief? They you need that mirror you refer to my friend if you defend this bunch of cretinous lunatics. There’s a word that defines people who insist, by force, that everyone should agree with them:- fascist. And if you read your history books you’ll see where that always ends up.

  23. Jock S. Trap 3 Dec 2010, 2:00pm

    I’m not going to apologise for defending myself and others against bigots. If someone is going to compare my relationship to that of incest then too right I’m going to take a stand and fight back.

    If you feel the best thing is to stay all passive and silence, hoping it’ll go away then too frightened to say something in case it offends when these people go out of there way to offend us day after day then shame on you.

    Doing things your way means these people gain ground with no-one to fight them because nobody speaks up.

    Show a bit of backbone and make these vile vernimous cult followers that what they follow is through choose and teaching.

    How We was born is not an illness and I for one will fight to protect my lover, my family, my friends, all in the LGBT community as well as myself against groups of choosen bigotted human haters who clearly have nothing better to do.

    These people would rather see the LGBT community dead than be given full equal rights, using there ‘religious texts’ as an excuse.

    James… seriously is that the best you can come up with?…. Very disappointed!

  24. john sharp 3 Dec 2010, 3:48pm

    there is more homophobic idiots than caring loving Christians
    no surprised brainwashed dummies

  25. Will – I’m not a christian. so the rest of your comment doesn’t really mean anything. But, having a spiritual life doesn’t mean you have to be religious or a christian, I’m neither. There are many other spiritual paths in the world. Your disregard for ‘imaginary friends’ reveals how little you know about science, art, music, literature, in fact, all of human creation. The greatest scientists, artists, writers, musicians all have a belief in ‘imaginary friends’. That’s just the way it has been throughout history. In fact research shows that the earliest human’s changed from their ‘monkey’ lifestyle when they started to think about some ‘imaginary friends’. So you see if mankind didn’t have these ‘imaginary friends’ like you want, we’d still be eating bananas.

    Jock – They don’t like you, so they call you vermin. You don’t like them, so you call them vermin. You’re no different to them. You’re a hypocrite for thinking you are any better. And if you had any power, you’d probably send them to the gas chambers. Like most bigots, you resort to hate to try and win. Just like they do. You ask me if I want to stay passive. Passive for what? Your big anti God war? What are you going on about? Or do you think your hate of christianity is going to bring an end to the idea of the supernatural. LOL.

  26. “Your disregard for ‘imaginary friends’ reveals how little you know about science, art, music, literature, in fact, all of human creation”

    Well, Toby, in your infinite wisdom in bowing before superstitious nonsense, I hold 4 science degrees form Trinity College in Dublin, one of which is a masters, so allow me to dismiss your silly suggestion, you patronising muppet.

    “So you see if mankind didn’t have these ‘imaginary friends’ like you want, we’d still be eating bananas.”

    Really? And where is your proof of this? Are you referring to Dunbar’s theory, hmmm? Lets have a look at that, shall we?

    Then you got it the wrong way around, like all religions people, twisting half facts to suit their own position. In actual fact, Toby, Robin Dunbar argues that the critical event in the evolution of the evolved neocortex took place in archaic homo sapiens about 500 thousand years ago, and only after the neocortex sufficiently large enough does it begin to process complex social phenomena such as language and religion. Religion did not push the evolutions of humans, humans evolved a belief in religion after an increase in mental capability. Some would argue that belief in religion is a left over of an earlier stage in evolution, it certainly makes people like the ones who signed this awful “Manhattan Declaration” act like a pack of Neanderthals. And it is more than apparent from studies that the more religious you are, the less intelligent you become. [Nyborg, Helmuth (2008-03) & Lynn, Richard; John Harvey and Helmuth Nyborg]

    You are point in case.

    Next time you quote science to me, get your facts right. Maybe you should stick to your “spirituality” as my well earned degrees in science tell me you don’t have a damned clue what your on about.

    Tell you what Toby, you keep your small minded support of these hateful morons who made this App and the insult to civilised humanity that is this Manhattan Declaration, and I’ll keep on pointing out how pathetic and tragic people like you are that defend them.

  27. Will, no, I’ll tell you what. I’ll list you some of the most important scientists from history who were not atheists. Their relationship with the supernatural helped them come up with some of the most amazing theories and research that have contributed to your supposed 4 degrees (thanks for including your CV btw). In fact Newton wrote more alchemical and mystical texts than he did hard rational science ………….

    Newton
    Einstein
    Niels Bohr
    Darwin
    Pasteur
    Johannes Kepler
    Copernicus
    James Clerk Maxwell
    Max Plank
    Gallileo
    Heisenberg

    You probably know with your four degrees there are a lot more.
    And before you throw dawkins into the pot, don’t forget, even he can’t explain how homosexuality fits into his theories.

    So, when you come up with a theory or some research that changes mankind, like the above list of non atheists have, let me know.

    btw. I’m not defending the christians, in none of my posts have I defended them, so stop trying to make it look like I am defending christians. I am not a christian. I am defending the right of a gay man to believe in what you call ‘imaginary friends’ without people like you and Jock calling me “pathetic and tragic”.

    Not all gay men are atheists. Get over it.

    Like I said, you’re no better than the fundamentalist christians responsible for this story. You’re full of hate, full of prejudice, full of bigoted misunderstanding. I just want the right to believe in what I want to believe in. And you think you have a right to stop me, you think you have a right to call me small minded. lol.

    Like I said, take a look in the mirror Will.

  28. Not withstanding the use of an intelligent “lol” your rant, I couldn’t give a hoot who in the past believed in god, its irrelevant. I might add most of those in your “list of believes” were persecuted by religion for their theories, so yes, you’re right, my four degrees do give me more accredited right to make a judgement here.

    And to prove a point, where you seem to need this validation for your nonsense, in THIS AGE, most scientists ARE actually atheists. In 1996 a survey 85% of scientists expressing disbelief or doubt in the existence of a god. So what you are talking about is coming from another orifice entirely. Look up, “Correlation does not imply causation”, its the problem with your flawed argument.

    But this isn’t about a god, or whether he exists, I couldn’t give a damn about your superstition. Its about you siding with these degenerates that signed the Manhattan Declaration and this app. Not once did you say they were wrong, and that says a lot. Ergo, Toby, you’re as petty minded and as hateful as they are, but what’s new, its religious mainstay to persecute a belief different to your own, isn’t it? Just like this Manhattan Declaration. Gay people are entitled to be free form this religious nonsense.

    Believe what you want, I do not care either way. But unless you can produce proof of a god, or ask him to appear right here, right now, to strike me down for my blasphemy, then…. no, wait, I’m still here. Oh, dear. Doesn’t god listen to you? Then don’t lecture others on what they don’t believe in.

    And your petty digs at my credentials not withstanding (at least I took the time to educate myself), next time you feel brave enough to make stupid statements in the name science and insult someone else’s proven knowledge in the field, be sure to make an effort to read first, there’s a good chap.

  29. Toby mate, get a life. We get enough religious nuts in this site without you adding you to their list of demented scrawls. Jock is totally right, we do not have to apologise for the right to exist without persecution against these lunatics, or people with a belief that “God tells them what to do”. And from the sound of it, I’d give up the science arguments with Will, its embarrassing for all of us watching you swim way out of your depth.

  30. 21stCenturySpirituality 3 Dec 2010, 6:38pm

    @Will In order to disprove something you need to define what it is you are trying to disprove. Now when it comes to saying God doesn’t exist it starts to get a bit more complicated then you realise Will because there are a variety of different ideas and concepts about what God is. Now you use the word “entity” and that can be defined as “something that has a distinct, separate existence, although it need not be a material existence”. Now the problem with that is that we also have the notion that God is not seperate from us or from life but rather that we are all part of God and that all forms of life are also part of God. There are also other ideas about what God is that make the notion that God is an ‘unproven entity’ not so carved in stone as you assert. You seem to have a limited and very definite view of what it means and what it looks like to be a spiritual or religious person and I dont recognise my own spirituality and my own outlook on life in your blinkered and stereotyped view of what that means.

  31. I went to facebook and reported these creeps. Sooner or later, it has to be made clear to them that they do not own the US. Otherwise life will be unbearable for everyone of whom they don’t approve.

  32. Many of the comments on this page could be regarded as hate. Why so much intolerance?
    If someone does not agree with your point of view why do you feel the need to crush them?

  33. westcoastkid 3 Dec 2010, 8:40pm

    DIVORCE AND MARITAL INFIDELITY IN THE THE STRAIGHT WORLD… erodes the institution of marriage.

  34. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 8:18am

    @ Toby

    What is interesting is that whilst you aim your comments you don’t say if you agree or disagree with this app or indeed the group this app is coming from ie what this comment page story is about!.

  35. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 8:20am

    You may feel your do-gooder attitude gets you – er – somewhere but I for one will not let the ‘Religious Freedoms’ of abusing people succeed. I will fight it as every level headed human being should.

  36. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 8:21am

    My message is clear when it comes to groups like these… If you can’t take it, don’t dish it. Treat people how you expect to be treated.

    All you do is make assumptions about people you know nothing about.

    We have come too long a way to allow these groups to abuse us and try all they can to take those rights away and I amongst others will take a stand against these people.

    These groups have been getting away with dictating for far too long and they have to get used to the 1 thing I know they fear most…. Change!

    And yes I know they won’t do that quietly… so why the hell should we?!

  37. 21stCenturySpirituality 4 Dec 2010, 9:15am

    Will & Jock Ok for the record I signed the petition to have this app removed and I posted the link on my facebook page and encouraged others to do the same. Now I understand with groups like this why you are suspicious and cynical about religion and Christianity in particular but we of all people should know what its like to all be tarred with the same brush. You can’t judge a section of humanity based on the actions of a relatively small number within that group. Not all people who profess to be Christians think like these people nor do they actively promote discrimination. I am very well aware of the problems in religion but I agree to a point with what Toby is trying to say. You cant make sweeping generalisations about everyone who is religious or spiritual any more than you can make sweeping generalisations about everyone who is gay or everyone who is black.

  38. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 9:57am

    You may very well talk about sweeping generalisations and whilst I know not all religious people are the same, as yet I still haven’t heard of any other religious group sticking it’s head out to condemn this group and it’s comments.

    If this vile group carries on, which it will, then too right I and many others will take a stand. If they feel the need to discriminate then why shouldn’t we answer back. If they don’t like what they hear then the answer is simple… Don’t dish what you can’t take!

    Lets not forget this is their idea of what ‘Religious Freedom’ is about. The right to discriminate.

    When I start to hear religious groups openly condemning these hateful people and tell them to stop dictating ther Evil on society then I may think differently.

    Until then I will remain Very vocal on the matter!

  39. Does anyone know if there WAS any condemnation from other religious groups in the US? Or, if this app was not well-knowm enough, has there been any condemnation of the Manhattan Declaration from religious groups? I genuinely don’t know the answer to that and I’d be interested to hear from anyone who does.

    ‘Christianity’ (and I’ve put that in inverted commas there to show that I personally don’t consider ir very Christian at all, and also to show that I’m not condemning ALL Christians) in the US is, in my opinion, a huge-money making exercise that tries to engineer an idea of persecution, spreads lies to snare the gullible, and is far too involved in politics when I understood there was supposed to be a separation of church and state in the US.

    I see what 21st CS is saying and it’s a very important point, but where are these real Christians when the Religious Right (who are neither) are spreading lies about LGBT people and obsessed with their own very special Jesus who seems a long way from any reasonable Christian’s idea of him? These fundie loons are causing the decline in interest in religion yet I rarely see anyone religious standing up to them and their divisive, aggressive, bigoted and paranoid ideas.

  40. Jock strap, when you say “Disgusting, these people are wrong and the sooner the planet rids of this vermin the better.” ( btw, did you get that line from meine kampf) does your other piece of wisdom, “If they don’t like what they hear then the answer is simple… Don’t dish what you can’t take!” apply to you? Or that other piece of hate spewing from your mouth “Do we need more proof that such religious people need medical attention of some nature”, is no different to what the worst fundamentalist says about you.

    You just don’t get the concept of freedom Jock. Most fundamentalist bigots don’t. Like the fundamentalists who are trying to sort this app out. They think I should be stopped from getting married, you think they are vermin that should be wiped from planet. Thankfully you don’t have any power in the world.

    In regard to what I think of this app. If you read what I had written you would notice me telling you that I am not a christian and I am not defending what these christians are saying or doing. And, if you look at every other comment, you’ll find that everyone else doesn’t agree with the app, the thing is they don’t resort to lines out of a book hitler wrote to try and sort the situation out. That’s why I don’t criticise anyone else because no one else sounds like himmler trying to drum up support for a holocaust. And it’s a recurring theme in your posts, which I haven’t commented on before.

    I think one of your other lines describes you “we should have the right to be as offensive as we want an stuff everyone else because it me, me, me that matters.” Sound familiar Jock? You may have been describing them, but it sounds just like you.

    Like I said, take a look in the mirror. You’re no better than they are.

    And this do-gooder approach to life you tell me I have. Who said I was a do-gooder? I just don’t like human beings getting called “vermin”, people suggesting that another group should be “wiped from the face of the earth”, that another group you may not agree with “needs medical attention”. I’m not a do-gooder, but I’m not a fascist either.

    If you are going to take up the mantle and fight for homo freedom (although I suspect the furthest you get on that front is leaving comments on pink news) then maybe you should rethink your party lines, because if you say those things I have listed in public, do you really think you’re going to get support from anyone who isn’t already on your side? And which party do you think you sound like exactly? Because they sound like lines from an old BNP manifesto to me.

  41. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 12:37pm

    It’s interesting that after reading your boring blasts it’s interesting and Very clear you clearly cannot separate human beings from religion. I guess thats where I will always get the upper hand over you because I can.

    We are born the way we are, Religion is taught! Get your facts right before your boring blasts!

    I’m sure if people with your attitude decided to not stand up against the Germans in WW2 we may not even be having this conversation.

    Thank God most have got the balls to stand up and be counted and not let these people walk all over us.

    Left to the likes of you I hate to think what world we’d be in. Maybe that mirror is better for you, mind you don’t offend yourself by looking into it!

  42. Gowin’s law in action again with Toby. Keeps going on about that mirror, but never seems to look into it himself. Desperate for validation for this own beliefs, it seems. Kinda pathethic.

  43. Jock S. Trap 4 Dec 2010, 12:53pm

    Secondly, it is insulting, as I’m sure most here would agree, that you seem to equat being LGBT in the same light as religion. All your blasts seem to make it on the same line.

    It is not!!

    Again please learn before coming here preaching, probably for your sad religious blog, weither, st8, gay, bi, lesbian, trans, black, white etc… it is How we are born.

    Religion is taught along with the views. Please do try to learn the difference.

  44. “That’s why I don’t criticise anyone else because no one else sounds like himmler trying to drum up support for a holocaust.”

    What on earth are you talking about.

    Let me get this right, you “don’t criticise anyone else”, yet you have no issue insulting and criticise anyone that thinks religion is offensive? WTF? Do you even know what you’re writing half the time?

  45. Hodge Podge 4 Dec 2010, 1:59pm

    As an open source nerd, the iPhone should be able to install ANYTHING, not just stuff from their shop. Apple has banned third party software from their phones, so they have absolute control of freedom of expression on iPhones. So I do worry about the censorship angle here…

  46. “You seem to have a limited and very definite view of what it means and what it looks like to be a spiritual or religious person and I dont recognise my own spirituality and my own outlook on life in your blinkered and stereotyped view of what that means.”

    Not at all. I have no problem with spirituality. If people want to manifest a spirituality, in what ever form that is, I have no issue with that. I even respect it.

    But at the same time, I do take strong issue with people who insist I am somehow mad because I demand proof of their deity/entity even exists. The lack of definition of god, is not proof that he might exists, that’s simple semantics.Telling me something exists with zero proof is akin to lying – and then telling me how I should act or be oppressed because that proof-less entity told them how I should exist, is bordering on insanity.To me, when there is a voice in your head telling you things, its schizophrenia. Not “god”. That’s Occam’s Razor.

    What I do have a problem with is organised religion. People telling me there is a god, and making the stupidest (and yes they are stupid) assertions about science and the existence of a god, as our less than enlightened Toby does, and then has the audacity to insult when he’s proven wrong. To be frank, religion is the cause of most wars, most suffering, and most discrimination, not least against gay people, and all for “the word of god” they claim to hear. That is utter insanity to me. If you think that is incorrect, I’d love to hear it. But to be honest, the iPhone app is a tip of the iceberg, history is littered with such examples, most not as benign, alas.

  47. 21stCenturySpirituality 4 Dec 2010, 5:48pm

    Re: I havent heard of any religious group condemning these people… I dont think they need to because there position on gay marriage speaks for itself. Quakers, Unitarians, and some Jewish and Islamic groups have already been working towards allowing gay marriage in religous buildings and have been actively involved in campaigning for legislative change that would allow this to happen. I know this because am an active member of a Unitarian Church and I have actually been involved in various human rights and equality campaigns and activities which have been supported and encouraged by them and have also worked with people of other faith communities who support and campaign for legislative change in this area and support gay marriage. I think that speaks for itself.

  48. 21stCenturySpirituality 4 Dec 2010, 7:59pm

    @ Will. I understand where your coming from in those final statements in comment 46 but in answer to that I would point out that an intelligent counter arguement to those sentiments can be found in the book Is Religion Danjerous by Keith Ward.

  49. Thank you, 21st CS. I didn’t know what those churches were doing. I wish more churches were as enlightened.

    Sadly, I think you overestimate the intelligence of some people (religious and non-religious). They hear one thing and if no-one contradicts it, they see that as tacit approval. They can’t look past the statement and consider alternative views as displayed by the actions of those churches you’ve mentioned. They hear something, see no dissent and assume the statemnet must be true. In fact, I believe some religious people actually welcome over-simplistic views of religion. They want someone to do the thinking for them; they want strict rules and whether they are sensible or not isn’t always a concern; and they want to quell their fear of life (and death) and their low self-esteem by being given some group to perceive as ‘enemies’, as inferior, so that they can occupy themselves ‘fighting’ them as a distraction technique from their own problems.

    NONE of that is aimed at you or any other reasonable member of any religion. But there are some people who don’t see religion as spiritual or as a path to god or whatever. For them, it’s a weapon to persecute others who don’t share their beliefs. It’s an egocentric tool that serves them (eg praying at sports games etc). ‘Religion’ is used as carte blanche for all kinds of offensive words and actions. That annoys me because it seems we can’t argue with it – firstly, because that’s seen as wrong even if we do so politely, and secondly because they hold the trump card – god says so, so there.

    I wholly agree with your comment about being careful not to tar all religious people with the same brush, and it’s right that we remember that (even though I’m sure I’ve forgotten to qualify my comments myself sometimes). But it’s easy to forget the large numbers of reasonable religious people when the bigots shout loudest. That’s why I’d welcome a statement condemning this hate-mongering from any church that disagrees with it.

  50. Har Jacobs 4 Dec 2010, 8:51pm

    I wonder if the insistence of this group on getting back on iPhone and iPad means that they’re losing it. Very slowly, people seem to stop caring about homosexuality, accepting it as just another fact of life. We’ve had gay marriage here for a while now, and no erosion of marriage has taken place yet. ‘God’ will sort us out, people, just live your own life and let us wallow in sin. ;)

  51. Actually, religious groups have denounced the Manhattan Declaration.
    Here is one.
    http://www.progressivechristianalliance.org/refutation.html

  52. Anna, thank you very much for that. Very encouraging.

  53. Vo Dong Cung 5 Dec 2010, 12:40am

    There are a big question thêy afraid to ask : DO YOU WANT TO BE CHRISTIAN?

  54. Jock S. Trap 5 Dec 2010, 6:36am

    @ Anna

    Thank you for that. Certainly is encouraging.

  55. ooer missus 9 Dec 2010, 3:19pm

    This app looks like a classic case of cyber-bullying that we have been reading a lot about recently, particularly in the light of 8 teen suicides in the US in the last couple of months.

    Spreading lies about gays on the internet, however politely, is still cyber-bullying.

    Having a cyber-bullying app removed from the store by a responsible company is not victimisation, any more than a moderator removing a defamatory post is victimisation.

  56. 21stCenturySpirituality 10 Dec 2010, 7:19am

    Heres a thought: ‘For a moral judgement to be respectable it must have something to say about just why a supposed wrong action is wrongful. If it fails to meet this test it is a preference and not a moral judgement at all.’ Richard Holloway quoting John Harris in Godless Morality – Keeping Religion Out Of Ethics.

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