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Trans man Thomas Beatie gives birth to third child

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  1. This upsets me. I find it pushes the cause back for trans people. I know this sounds transphpbic, but i dont mean it too – i just find this distressing. He identifies as a man yet he is giving birth. Whats the point of identifying as a man, why not choose another term. I just find this upsetting. I dont suppose the child will be thrilled about it either. Sorry.

  2. It’s his decision, not yours or mine.
    Unusual – yes, but assuming the kids are OK, there’s no problem is there?

  3. I don’t think it’s any of our business and i don’t think we should be making assumptions about what the child will or will not be thrilled about. That’s the same argument that people use against LGBT families, saying that children won’t be happy to have two parents of the same sex. I think children are happy in happy environments so I hope Thomas and his wife can provide that. I saw them in a documentary a couple of years back and they seemed like a lovely couple so (if I am to trust that) I have no reason to believe They can’t be good parents.

    Also, if he identifies as a man, it’s not for us to ask him to come up with a different word because it upsets us, that’s how he identifies.

    I say congrats to the whole family.

  4. Is giving birth something that defines what a man or woman are, or is it simply something women are usually able to do? It’s a profound experience, undoubtably, but it also happens to be one a number of women chose to forgo. Are they less women for the fact, and are they so different from this man?

  5. As a trans woman, I think it actually helps the trans cause. Society expects that for trans people to be “genuine” that we must hate our bodies and be sterilised. Many trans people want to keep their reproductive capability and don’t see it as at odds with being their gender. Having a womb does not make Thomas a woman – it is a male womb as he is male. I commend him for living so genuinely.

    It tends to be cis people who find reproductively capable trans people uncomfortable, and it is their privilege, not our existence, which sets back our cause.

  6. Having a womb does not make Thomas a woman – it is a male womb as he is male.

    Sorry, I just don’t get it.

  7. Woman gives birth, hardly earth shattering news. As a transsexual i find this seriously detrimental for transsexuals to be taken seriously. People demanding to be called men yet having babies, people calling themselves women but want their penis intact for their sex life. Its barking madness. What if this person demanded to be called a Giraffe, would the press now be reporting on a giraffe giving birth to human baby? I think not. So why are we pandering to these people who demand to be accepted as the opposite gender yet have had little if no medical or surgical intervention. In these days of financial restrictions we will next be having people demanding that transsexuals have NO medical/surgical intervention funded by the NHS because of these highly selfish people. They will see they dont want medical/surgical intervention then why should any of us want it? Then once again we will find a situation where those who desperately need gender reassignment surgery, hormones etc are once again being denied medical care all because of these people who are supposedly part of the same community ie transgender.

  8. Brenda Lana Smith R af D 3 Aug 2010, 11:49am

    I am with Dave, Paul & kaikoura on this… Thomas Beattie’s blatant manifestation of motherhood makes a mockery of the law and reinforces the argument that gender reassignment surgery includes compulsory sterilisation in a homo- trans-phobic world societally constructed on an unbending legal gender binary… it certainly does nothing for the implementation of my and other gender-variant folk’s equality and human rights on British Overseas Territories…

  9. I’m a transman who hates those parts and wants hysto as soon as possible but the way I see it if a trans man is comfortable giving birth then good for them but don’t go to the media with it because this is just confusing cis people more.

  10. I don’t have a problem with it, the trans community should sort their own sh1t out without the gay community judging them. I don’t think trans politics has anything to do with homo politics, and don’t understand why this has got anything to do with a gay news service.

  11. Good for him, I am technically male but I would love the opptunity he has. I don’t get why people don’t like this, all he wanted was to have a kid which is a lovelly thought and by letting this enter the news they are showing how normal trans people are, how they just want the same things as everyone else.

  12. This isn’t a trans story, This is a ‘butch dyke has baby’ story. nothing to do with transsexual people, at all.

  13. OrtharRrith 3 Aug 2010, 2:33pm

    What people have to realise is that there is more to being a Transgender person then simply being Transsexual. There’s much more then simply black and white – male and female, there are those who are somewhere inbetween and this goes to show that to the public – if they bother to look and think for a second, rather then just spouting off.
    Yes Thomas isn’t your classic image of a transsexual, but then he’s not claiming to be. Transgender covers more then that, accept it.

  14. So he has given birth to his 3rd child. He must enjoy motherhood. He may be male but he is the mother of those kids, not the father.

    Out of curiosity, is it usual for a transman to stop taking his hormone treatments, get pregnant and have all those female pregnancy hormones floating about his body?

  15. “What people have to realise is that there is more to being a Transgender person then simply being Transsexual. There’s much more then simply black and white – male and female, there are those who are somewhere inbetween and this goes to show that to the public – if they bother to look and think for a second, rather then just spouting off.
    Yes Thomas isn’t your classic image of a transsexual, but then he’s not claiming to be. Transgender covers more then that, accept it.”

    Thomas isnt a transsexual, end of story, they are a female. If they were really a transman then the idea of being pregnant as a transman would be repugnant. Some have children pre transition but once they transition they need to get as close to a genetic male as possible. Difficult i know with the crap surgery available for FTM transsexuals but they would still have a hysterectomy. There are those who pretend they are TS but class themselves as non op TS. They are transvestites or transgender in denial. Transsexuals NEED surgery. This person is a self publicist trying to make loads of money by pretending to be a transsexual.

    As for the link between transsexual and transgender, sorry but i do not subscribe to that nonsense. This was concocted by transgender people wanting to be seen in the same light as transsexuals to give them some kind of credibility. A different tack they took after the Charles Prince who invented the name transgender and who despised transsexuals. Why they feel the need for this i dont know, i assume some form of guilt.

  16. I wish them congratulations and all the very best for a long and happy life together, all of them.

  17. Well, he’s certainly eating his cake and having it. Still woman enough where it matters most to most women-possesing a womb!

  18. To Lisa, 1st all I see here is a heterosexual couple doing anything to have kids, I personally admire that, 2nd, are we judging people as transexual by the ways they are unable to give birth? 3rd what makes you able to know his gender over his 2-3 decades of experience of being himself, also does this mean that we should listen to anti-gay views more than our own experience following that same logic 4th I would most likely end up with a guy and in that relationship I would love the opptunity to have a child growing inside of me, does this make me a trans-women? I have male parts and never wanted rid of them 5th what qualities should we judge people’s gender on? are all feminine guys male until they wish to have a kid? are trans-women, men if they don’t wish to have a kid? what about the people who don’t have a gender, who are free from gender labels and what about infertile people, are they also free from gender?

  19. I take offense to all this crap about calling him the pregnant man.
    He isn’t a man.
    He looks like one but he’s kept his ovaries, so he’s still a woman
    If this person wants to be a man then she needs to get rid of the ovaries.

  20. who really cares? if he wants to be a man and get pregnant too then good luck to him

    it’s no-one’s business but his and his family/friends etc

  21. OrtharRrith 3 Aug 2010, 3:44pm

    “Transsexuals NEED surgery”

    What about transsexuals who can’t have surgery? Those who are medically unfit for surgery, or even unable to afford it, no matter how much they NEED it. Are they not then transsexuals?


  22. “Transsexuals NEED surgery”

    What about transsexuals who can’t have surgery? Those who are medically unfit for surgery, or even unable to afford it, no matter how much they NEED it. Are they not then transsexuals? ‘

    As you said they need it and want it but cant, they are still transsexuals. Those who say they are transsexual but CHOSE not to have medical/surgical intervention are not. They are just wannabees and in reality are transvestites or transgender. Something they seem to hate. Why?

  23. vulpus_rex 3 Aug 2010, 4:20pm

    The comment about the giraffe above is in danger of trivialising a contentious issue, but it does highlight the difficulty.

    If there has been a misalignment then if Thomas Beatties wants the public to respect his transition then I think he should respect the boundaries of credulity and support from the non-trans community.

  24. some trans men have babies. the world needs to get over it

  25. the best part of this real life tale is that it challenges the little boxes into which one tends to be shoved – i wish them well

    my reasoning is that some people confound sexuality with capacity to reproduce – so extending and blurring assumed boundaries can only be beneficial

  26. Wow! Essentialism is alive and well and living among the LGBT community! So, here’s the explanation for those of you unfamiliar with the concept of ‘genderQueer’. Some of us – and I emphasise the phrase ‘some of us’ have taken up a position whereby we reject the way in which bodies are essentialised as ‘male’ or ‘female’, based solely on our genitalia and/or reproductive systems. Our argument – and we look towards intersexed people particularly – is that the division of humans into two species – male and female – is incredibly simplistic and – from both an historical and a cultural position – indefensible. This does not mean that people who want gender reassignment surgery cannot have it, it simply means that some of us do not think this surgery is necessary FOR US. Oh, and please do not blame us for future funding decisions made by NHS trusts. We’re not saying surgery is unnecessary per se – we’re saying it is unnecessary for some of us who identify as genderQueer. For the god’s sake, please stop insisting that everyone who decides to challenge or question gender roles and identities should always follow the same path. The watchwords here, people, are DIFFERENCE and DIVERSITY. So don’t treat us all the same!

  27. To Kaikaoura, life is rarely that simple, a Transexual, as I see it, is someone who is the opposite sex of the physical body they are born with, as in part of the mind rather than anything physical which makes it more difficult due to the fact we can’t read his mind. All we can gather from this story is that him and his wife wanted a kid, what we can’t gather is how much, whether this man gave up the chance to have the right sexual organs because he wanted a kid that much, I think I would though if someone did offer me the chance I would give it alot more thought than I am right now but I would most certainly consider and most likely do it, in the end.

  28. Does it really matter?
    He recognises himself as a male, but wanted a child.
    Im sure if actually born males had female partners who couldnt have kids, and they had the possibility of having them for them as he does, im sure they would do it.
    Its a matter of love and wanting to have children in their family.

  29. Sundancer 3 Aug 2010, 5:48pm

    I’m reminded of my physically repellent reaction the first time I saw two men kissed. I think it’s our cultural programming taking over momentarily. As we have more time to think about it it will become the beautiful act that it is.

  30. Is the story of Thomas Beatie so far something like……..

    “I was born a woman, but I felt like a man trapped inside a woman’s body, I had surgery and hormone treatment to look more like a man, but I haven’t got a penis cause I wanted to keep a female reproductive system, even though I felt like a man, but the facial hair and lack of breasts helps me feel like a man, but then I stopped my hormone treatment cause I wanted to still have more female hormones than male hormones, but I’m a man cause I say I am, I married a heterosexual woman who doesn’t like penis’, but she can’t have kids, but I want kids of my own, so I got a man who was born a man to donate some sperm, I somehow for the sperm inside my womb, cause I can, cause I was born a woman, even though I feel like a man, but to be honest I don’t know what a man or a woman is anymore cause I’ve blurred the boundaries so much the idea of seperate genders doesn’t really matter. And btw, I’m not gay, or a lesbian, I’m heterosexual. And I’m a man, and women are not defined by their reproductive systems. Oh sh1t, I’m so confused right now, I don’t even know if I’m a human being anymore, because human beings shouldn’t be defined by the fact that they are human beings…….or something like that….”

    I saw a documentary once about a guy who thought he was a cat – he even had whiskers implanted into his cheeks and walked on all fours. It was so interesting.

    It would be very kind, as I’m a little confused, if someone could help me out in trying to understand this…..

    - Isn’t Thomas a masculine lesbian that had a mastectomy?

    - If not, then what exactly is a trans man? How do you define it?

    - And if a trans man is someone who just feels like they are a man in their mind regardless of their biology, even though they live like a woman (ie. being preagnant for nine months), then are transmen and women neither men nor women anymore? but something new, like a third gender?

    - But if that’s true, then doesn’t that go against the trans men or women who want to be accepted as a man or a woman, because the point before would mean they are neither.

    - Or as a non trans person, am I just trying to define things too much? and if so, why are trans folk so obsessed with definitions of gender?

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with it, so I don’t need to get over it – good luck to him (although I don’t think he’s a he) – he’s not doing any harm to anyone – so like Sarah says above, it doesn’t really matter. I’m just interested – like I was in the catman.

  31. OrtharRrith 3 Aug 2010, 6:41pm

    “then doesn’t that go against the trans men or women who want to be accepted as a man or a woman, because the point before would mean they are neither.”

    You are getting confused with transsexual, genderqueer and transgender.
    I am a transsexual woman – I felt the need to undergo surgery to become physically the woman I am inside. Transgener is a catch all term that includes those who aren’t transsexual. This includes people like Thomas Beatie who have opted not to have surgery. As I and others have said there is a far wider spectrum then just male or female, including those who feel they are both and even those who feel they are neither. They are not transsexual but they are transgender.

  32. OrtharRrith 3 Aug 2010, 6:43pm

    *meant transgender not transgener – typed too fast and didn’t proof read

  33. To Jay, this man just sees pregnancy as a process and not how it defines him, what defines him is his mind. Take it from another view, take a homosexual man and women, imagine they both want a kid and so decide to make one together and also imagine if they can’t do it with a turkey baster for whatever reason, would it make them straight to have sex (presumablly with aids) to make this kid?

    I think people over complicate things to do with the mind and feelings, you can’t let someone else tell you what your mind or feelings are and you can’t say what someone else’s mind and feelings are.

  34. Sister Mary Clarance 3 Aug 2010, 7:28pm

    I think this guy would go to any lengths to sell his grandmother’s gold teeth. He has nothing in common with any transexual I have ever know, although he does seem to have a lot in common with opportunists who would stop at nothing that I have come across over the years.

    He has defaced his body to an extreme in irder to profit from it

  35. Thanks Orthar, thats helpful, I don’t know if I get this, but I think what you’re saying is…..

    Transgender don’t think they are men or women. Or they think they are both a man and a woman. So they are the third gender I was talking about. Is that right? And if so – wouldn’t it be better if they split in two – a group who think they are neither (are they not genderqueer?), and a group who think they are both? and wouldn’t it be better if they got rid of the trans from the gender, because trans becomes short for transgendered and transexual which is confusing as……..

    Transexuals want to be the opposite sex they are born into – so a man wanting to be seen as a woman, and a woman wanting to be seen as a man would be transsexual. Is that right? Cause that one’s easy to understand. Maybe transexuals should get rid of the trans and just be known as male or female instead of transexual?

    And from what Lilith says genderqueer (I’ve never even heard of that one before) are into essentialism so they just don’t believe in any gender or any definitions of anything, and don’t want to be thought of as any gender – they are genderless? which is like the transgendered who think they are neither male nor female.

    And so Thomas is trangendered because he thinks he is both? Oh sh1t, I don’t think I get it. Because he says he is a he. So he thinks he is a man, but he lives like a woman? What is he, a he or a she, or is he/she a trans? ie. neither male nor female? Or does it not matter – and should there be a term for people who think it doesn’t matter if they are male or female – is that what trans? No, because you are transexual and you are female and you want to be known as female, not as genderless.

    This is so fukcin confusing for me.

    To Blondie, you’re not making it any easier – I’m trying to understand this, and you may as well say don’t try and understand it, you’re ‘overcomplicating things’ or you tell me ‘it’s his mind that defines him’…..whatever that means – sounds like a line from a bad hollywood movie – cause the last time I checked anyone who is conscious is defined by their mind – that’s what minds are for – to define things. The fact is Thomas wants to be defined as a man and wants people to think he is a man, but then when someone says men don’t have babies so you’re not a man, he says ‘don’t define me’, he has female reproductive organs, female hormones – so therefore he’s not a man, he’s a woman who looks like a man, cause he doesn’t act like a man – men don’t get pregnant. And your metaphor of a a gay man and woman wanting a kid with a turkey baster, does that make them straight? No, it makes them a homo man and woman who are having a kid. And no one is asking about Thomas’ sexuality – I’ve no idea what he/she gets up to, is he/she gay, lesbian, straight? fukc knows? – I’m trying to find out his/her gender, if he is a man or a woman, or something else? Orthar wants to be known as a woman – she acts like woman, looks like a woman, she thinks like a woman – she is a woman. Lilith wants to be known as ….. well actually I don’t know what Lilith wants to be known as cause lilith doesn’t want to be known as he or she.

    What exactly do you call genderqueer? – it’s not he or she, that would be insulting, so what are they.

  36. The mind is better for defining but most people aren’t defined by their mind, in the instance of this man, you are defining him by his actions, which he, himself doesn’t believe defines him. To put it simply he is a man, one that made use of his life giving abilities, who really wanted a kid and did what he could do get one but he is still a man, I’m sorry if this is still confusing, I suppose I should really shut up after this comment, if I’m just not helping but I just feel that’s all you need to know is that he is a man.

    I’m sorry but you missed what the metaphor meant, I didn’t say they use a turkey baster, I meant they don’t use it and instead make a kid the old fashioned way, which I would think wouldn’t make them straight but make them two gay people wanting a kid just like my point is this is a trans-man just wanting a kid.

  37. OrtharRrith 3 Aug 2010, 8:36pm

    “but I think what you’re saying is…..”

    Sort of but you’re also a bit off. Allow me to try and make it more simple – if I can. Transgender is the state of a persons gender identity not matching their assigned (at birth) sex. Now, here’s the important bit regarding the word transgender:- Transgender is a “catch-all” term that refures to a wide variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups who vary from the usual gender identity roles. This includes Transsexuality, transvestism, Genderqueer and Androgynes. Now it can also be used to describe those who live in the gender role without undergoing surgery. Thomas Beatie is transgender in the meaning of someone who has chosen not to undergo full surgery but who otherwise lives in the role of a male.
    Does that help you any?

  38. Some men harbor strong desires to bear children, just like mothers do. Its really not that uncommon, nor feminizing for him.

    Its just good that he has it in this sense, and not the “I’ma go out and poke holes in my condoms, so that 50 women get pregnant with my child” way that most people associate this phenomenon with. :P

  39. @ Orthar – it really helps, thanks, hope you didn’t mind me asking those questions, but this topic really does bend my brain, and I want to understand the T in LGBT, and you have described it so simply that I think I finally kind of understand what some of these different terms mean because of your comments.

    I now for the first time understand transgender, transexual and transvestite.

    Thomas is androgynous in my eyes, neither male nor female, but both.

    @ Blondie – thanks for trying to explain more, but you are not explaining anything, you’re trying to defend something/one when I’m not judging anything/one. I’m just trying to find out what a woman who wants to be a man who then has a baby because they still have a womb is called or defined as by the T community that Thomas thinks he is part of. I’m not interested in what Thomas wants to be defined as, but what Thomas is defined as by a community which I have no contact with other than on pinknews. Simple. And the fact that Thomas is carrying a child in a womb makes him androgynous in my eyes, not a man.

    btw, good luck to Thomas and his wife, it’s truly amazing, mind bending and completely fukced up, so I love it, I’m just trying to work out wtf is going on.

  40. can anyone please explain to me who he get pregnant? i just want to know who gives the sperm and who gives the female hormones?shame on him…

  41. I think this is an excellent example of being true to yourself and your wishes, and making the most of what you have. his wife couldnt have children, he happened to have functional reproductive organs, great! why not use them! why should he and his wife have gone childless just to fit into most people’s definition of “man” or even “transman”.

    wish this happy family the best

  42. BouncerMan in Black 4 Aug 2010, 3:48am

    I am a man. I was born a male. I want a baby. Does this make me bad, different or bizzare?

    I am very jealous of this couple; I would love to be able to conceive and I wish them my very best wishes.

  43. Hmmmm. 3 children in this day and age with world population explosion, reduced resources, social upheavals, etc, etc. Isn’t that what people should be discussing as it affects everyone rather than these two’s personal wants/needs to have children. That part is nobody’s business.

  44. Vulpus and sister mary clarence are both spouting nonsense

  45. I am a man. I was born a male. I want a baby. Does this make me bad, different or bizzare?

    You can have a child, you’ve got sperm. If you mean bear a child, then I don’t think it works for trans women. I think you’ve got to have a womb to carry a child, which only females have, unless it is removed

  46. I would have had some respect if they didn’t do the who pregnant man thing a few years ago now she seems like a circus freak.

  47. diva ex machina 4 Aug 2010, 2:12pm

    I think most of the bitter hateful comments in here come from people who would just die to be able to do what Thomas is doing: give birth. That goes particularly to those “true transsexuals” who “NEED” surgery. Well, surgery sure can’t give you a womb or ovaries and it certainly doesn’t let you have babies like a woman. Why would any woman NEED that? Yet here are some transsexual women who call Thomas a woman because he wants to give birth. So if you are a woman because you want to give birth, then if you don’t want to give birth you’re not a woman, right? All you want is surgery. Good for you but don’t call yourself a woman. Fair’s fair.

    And by the way, a transsexual is a true transsexual only when she or he NEEDS surgery, right? So what about a transsexual who doesn’t have surgery because what he or she really really, really needs is to be able to give birth, or father a child, like any other woman or man? What if that person doesn’t have surgery because they don’t really care what society thinks of their body, but they just want their body to be normal, which surgery will never do? What if that damned surgery that is so NEEDED by “true transsexuals” is just bollocks?

    Well, then Thomas is doing the right thing and more power to him. And boo to all the hateful people seething in their envy for what they can’t ever hope to get. Love and children.

  48. Divs ex machine, your post is not clear at all.

  49. “I think most of the bitter hateful comments in here come from people who would just die to be able to do what Thomas is doing: give birth. That goes particularly to those “true transsexuals” who “NEED” surgery. Well, surgery sure can’t give you a womb or ovaries and it certainly doesn’t let you have babies like a woman. Why would any woman NEED that? Yet here are some transsexual women who call Thomas a woman because he wants to give birth. So if you are a woman because you want to give birth, then if you don’t want to give birth you’re not a woman, right? All you want is surgery. Good for you but don’t call yourself a woman. Fair’s fair.

    And by the way, a transsexual is a true transsexual only when she or he NEEDS surgery, right? So what about a transsexual who doesn’t have surgery because what he or she really really, really needs is to be able to give birth, or father a child, like any other woman or man? What if that person doesn’t have surgery because they don’t really care what society thinks of their body, but they just want their body to be normal, which surgery will never do? What if that damned surgery that is so NEEDED by “true transsexuals” is just bollocks?

    Well, then Thomas is doing the right thing and more power to him. And boo to all the hateful people seething in their envy for what they can’t ever hope to get. Love and children. ”

    More crap spouted by a trannie in denial. For years transsexual have fought for recognition that we have a medical condition. When we finally get there the transvestite and transgender ( ie transvestites in denial) jump on the wagon. Non Op transsexuals do not exist therefore your assertion transexuals may not want surgery is bollocks, they are trannies in denial. Get over it.

    I am a post op mtf transsexual and yes i would have loved ovaries and the chance to give birth. Why? i need to get a close to genetic female as possible. My brain tells me i am a female therefore i want everything that goes with being a female. I know, and i dont need a prat like you to tell me, i dont have the reprdouctive organs of a female. It is usually only those deluded transgender people who love to throw that back in my face.

    So how does Thomas tie in with being transsexual? She doesnt. She says she is a bloke, says he brain tells her she is a bloke yet she wont take enough hormones to stop her reproductive organs or have a hysterectomy therefore she cannot have that strong feelings to be a bloke. She isnt transsexual.

  50. Lol. I’d like to be a giraffe.

  51. Good for the Beatties.

    I was devastated when I discovered I couldn’t have kids. Fortunately for me, I didn’t have to deal with public vilification for being a barren women who had failed to slot neatly into her cultural role and therefore could not be seen to be a “real” woman.

    As far as I’m concerned, it is a matter of simple humanity and basic good manners to accept a person’s word on their gender identity or orientation.

    My gender identity is never in question just because my ovaries don’t work. Thomas’s shouldn’t just because his do, and he’s hung onto them in order to have a family with his infertile wife.

    Having caught a few minutes of an interview with the Beatties, they seem like a genuinely nice, down to earth couple.

    Congratulations to them, I say. Happy families should be celebrated and supported, not berated.

  52. I am sorry, but It really is an insult to trans people to continue referring to HER as a trans man. As far as I am concerned, it is just a transparent moneymaking scam and the media keep being suckered by it.

    I don’t begrudge them their children, but I do object to them going about it in a way which trivialises the suffering of tens of thousands of trans people and just makes it even more difficult for them to get people to take their situation seriously.

  53. To kaikoura, I would of thought you being a transexual yourself would have a bit more respect and understanding then to not call him a “she”, how do you feel when you are refered to as a “he”, obviously there is a disagreement over whether he is truelly transexual or some other catogory under transgender, I still say he is a transexual but even if he is not then he is so far over to the male side that it is still disrespectful to call him by female terms.

    You say that he hasn’t got strong feelings to be a bloke but can I ask when you met the guy, you must of to know his feelings for certain, unless what your saying is crap. Here is a guy given the options between correct genitials and a child, who knows how much he wanted to have a kid, I would like to think alot but I don’t know, I can’t judge the feelings of a guy I have never met.

    Also, why is everything so black and white, why must everyone fit a label perfectly or be brushed off into another label. This man’s desires for the right genitals I don’t know, I don’t know this man but if we assume they are not that strong then what label do we give him? he’s not a transvestite, this is not him living his born sex and then dressing up as the opposite, he is not androgyness, he looks very much male , he is not gender queer, gender queer implies a good enough mixture of male and female that the person we are talking about isn’t just a typical male with some female qualities or female with some male qualities but this man here is male enough to be out of that label, so tell me, what do we call a person who was born as a women living as a man with female genitals?

  54. diva ex machina 6 Aug 2010, 3:08am

    @Kaikoura: just to make one thing perfectly clear, I don’t doubt that you are transsexual and I do agree that you wanting to have surgery is a sure sign of it. But I don’t see why you being transsexual makes you a woman. If you really were a woman you would be much more interested in being a mother. Isn’t that why you say Thomas Beattie is one? Oh and quit shifting the goalposts. You went on at length about what a transsexual is like and not once did you mention anything about having babies until I broached the subject. If you really NEEDED to be a mother you would have found a way.

    So are you? Mind you, motherhood is not just about giving birth. You don’t have to have a womb to be a mother. You can adopt. Have you? ‘Cuz if you haven’t then you’re a bloke. Like I said, fair’s fair. If Thomas Beattie having kids any way he can makes him a she, you not doing so makes you a he.

    For years transsexual have fought for recognition that we have a medical condition. When we finally get there the transvestite and transgender ( ie transvestites in denial) jump on the wagon.

    That’s the irony, innit! When the gays and the lesbians were fighting themselves out of the diagnostic manuals, transsexuals were pushing themselves back in. On the other hand your assertion about all the evil trannies “jumping on the wagon” is wrong. There are loads of transgendered groups lobbying for the de-medicalisation of transsexuality. You see, not everyone enjoys being sick just so they can get funding for surgery.

    But what do you want. Some people are proud of who and what they are, others have only fear and shame… and they want to spread it around. Boo.

  55. PumpkinPie 6 Aug 2010, 7:15am

    Good ol’ Thomas Beatie. I love the way he makes gender-conformist transphobes froth with rage. :D

    Hey, I’m a dude who identifies as a dude but likes wearing feminine outfits. Does that make me a girl? And I’ve come across men who identify as men but wish they could give birth (seriously, I’ve conversed with some very quirky people). Does that make them women? Are either of us “faking” being men?

    I’m guessing the answer to both of those is “no”. So riddle me this: why are cisgendered people allowed such massive leeway in gender expression and desires, yet transpeople have to either be super-girly housewives (for transwomen) or super-butch truckers (for transmen), or they’re apparently “faking it”? I’ll tell you why, little Pinklets: because transphobes are idiots.

    Against a cisgendered male, the transphobes are powerless. The body’s physical appearance is paramount to them, so they have no arguments. With a transman, however, they have no problem saying they’re only a “pretend” man. After all, deep down, they believe all trans people are just pretending. So the second any transperson displays anything but the most cliché of behaviours, the transphobes are on them like a bad rash.

    How about transpeople who don’t “approve” of Mr. Beatie? Simple. I regard them the same way I’d regard people fellow cisgendered people who would threaten me for crossdressing. They just need to get out more.

  56. OrtharRrith:
    > Transgender is the state of a persons gender identity not
    > matching their assigned (at birth) sex.

    Wrong. If only. That’s transsexual (according to Harry Benjamin’s original classification, which has several classes of intensity). The largest transgender group in the UK is the Beaumont Society, who are male heterosexual cross-dressers, most of whom identify solidly as men. As an umbrella term, some claim it includes Intersex people (most of whom are perfectly happy with their sex), or even any person who behaves or dresses or looks at all at variance with the stereotype for their sex. Thus short-haired women, or men with ear piercing are regarded as trangender by the American Psychological Association LGBT section.

  57. Jay:
    > What exactly do you call genderqueer? – it’s not he or she, that would be
    > insulting, so what are they.

    I find the best thing is use their name.

  58. Blah:
    > Out of curiosity, is it usual for a transman to stop taking his hormone
    > treatments, get pregnant and have all those female pregnancy hormones
    > floating about his body?

    Obviously not usual. But there are several sites now advising people like this, and so Beattie is just the most public. It has gone so far that, on Wikipedia, the thought police now demand that mothers not be referred to as women “since they have not been asked their gender identity”.

    But they are just one (pushy, probably through the confidence-inducing effects of testosterone) group under the very diverse class of “trans”.

    Thing is I know many women with a history of transsexuality (another distinct group) who have a real need to bear children, who get really “broody”. I’m one of them. As a child I wanted to be a mother, and many transsexual girls do. I have to keep away from events where the happiness of other mothers with their children would really hurt. Its impossible to get those who might be able, through research, to make that possible, to take us seriously. They won’t even let us adopt. Indeed some psychiatric texts even lie that we have no maternal instinct.

    Thomas Beattie chasing publicity encourages, with regard to male-to-females, “experts” advocating that we should preserve s…m and become fathers, which is is an appalling idea if your identity is really female. Not terrible practical either if you are a heterosexual woman or a femme lesbian (my partners have all been averse to child bearing). And very inappropriate when taken to the length some do of opposing transsexual girls being allowed any intervention until they are developed enough in the wrong direction to store s…m.

  59. Lilith:
    > …This does not mean that people who want gender reassignment surgery
    > cannot have it, it simply means that some of us do not think this surgery is
    > necessary FOR US. Oh, and please do not blame us for future funding decisions
    > made by NHS trusts….

    If you don’t want sex reassignment surgery why do you have to try to rename it “gender reassignment surgery”, undermining our really desperate need for it? And undermining our case that we are born with this gender and it cannot be changed by surgery or anything else, so our sex needs to be changed?

    Its the working against the needs of those transsexual people that attracts the blame for continuing problems, and increased ones – like our access to SRS at 16 in Thailand being stopped by claims from gay and transgender activists that delay until 21 was needed because no one could know such a need at 16, ignoring the many who have had SRS at that age, or earlier, with no regrets.

  60. Jay:
    > – And if a trans man is someone who just feels like they
    > are a man in their mind regardless of their biology, even though
    > they live like a woman (ie. being preagnant for nine months),
    > then are transmen and women neither men nor women anymore? but
    > something new, like a third gender?
    >
    > – But if that’s true, then doesn’t that go against the trans men
    > or women who want to be accepted as a man or a woman, because
    > the point before would mean they are neither.

    Superb questions. There is language usage to try to deal with that. Those who identify entirely as women describe ourselves just as that, adding “with a history of transsexuality” when necessary for accuracy. “Transsexual woman” (or girl, or child) indicates anyone pre-surgically with a female identity, whether or not there has been any progress with transition.. “Trans woman” or “trans girl” just indicates male-to-female. “transwoman” or “transgirl” indicates transgender, which means deliberately retaining male genitalia. And then there’s “genderqueer”. But then people try describing us all as “queer”, or transgender.

    Its like the children, and those who cannot bear to be seem as other than women were born with the most intense sense of incongruity. But instead get treated as if exaggerating, having false airs, or, misogynistic-ally, as hysterical.

    It is precisely because of that, and related issues that we keep protesting about being classed under an umbrella term that promotes that confusion, without our consent. In some countries it is even proposed that we all be legally a third gender.

    We get pressure to be silent along the lines of suggesting that we are outdated, but all the youngest transsexual children just want to be the other sex, not a third gender. Yet there is no provision in UK law for us at all – under the Gender Recognition Act one would always be easily identifiable as having been born transsexual. That matters terribly to us, but is of course absolutely wonderful for people who want everyone to know they are third gender.

  61. Lilith:
    > …This does not mean that people who want gender reassignment surgery
    > cannot have it, it simply means that some of us do not think this surgery is
    > necessary FOR US. Oh, and please do not blame us for future funding decisions
    > made by NHS trusts….

    So, when transgender people participated prominently in creating the Yogyakarta Principles ( http://www.yogyakartaprinciples.org/ ) without even consulting transsexual people, never mind ensuring we were included, and didn’t include any provision for the process of changing sex (hormones and surgery), or stipulation that children can be transsexual, and should have appropriate rights too, there’s no blame to be attached when the UN bodies, or countries following them don’t allow for those necessities?

    And when transgender people negotiate exclusive access to bodies like the European Commission, pretending they represent transsexual people (whose law cases created the opening) and insist that to participate one must identify as transgender, or even be “out as transgender”, they aren’t to blame when the needs of those of us who only identify as the sex we have become are overlooked in the resulting measures?

    So when transgender people go to councils or health bodies, without consulting transsexual people, and don’t mention the needs of transsexual people whilst purporting to represent “all such people”, they aren’t to blame for NHS trusts not funding transsexual needs? Or for NHS staff being taught to assume that women like me are concealing a penis?

    Sounds like denial to me.

    The word “transgender” was coined by a full-time cross-dresser to indicate a rejection of sex change. It was part of a life-long campaign against transsexual people who she propagandised were set only on a path to suicide, and hormones and surgery which she regarded as mutilation. It was adopted by a wider range of campaigners (initially F-to-Ms who did not want surgery) because they found the “sex” in transsexual embarrassing. It is used by parents who think that as long as their offspring have not had surgery they might still be “cured”. The whole point – basically because they didn’t need it, and didn’t understand or accept that others do – was to undermine the process that the most afflicted transsexual people need for survival.

  62. diva ex machina 11 Aug 2010, 3:56pm

    > So, when transgender people participated prominently in
    > creating the Yogyakarta Principles (
    > http://www.yogyakartaprinciples.org/ ) without even consulting > transsexual people, never mind ensuring we were included, and
    > didn’t include any provision for the process of changing sex
    > (hormones and surgery), or stipulation that children can be
    > transsexual, and should have appropriate rights too, there’s no > blame to be attached when the UN bodies, or countries following > them don’t allow for those necessities?

    There is plenty of that in the yogyakarta principles. Principle 17 goes like this:

    *******
    PRINCIPLE 17. The Right to the Highest Attainable Standard of Health

    Everyone has the right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, without discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. Sexual and reproductive health is a fundamental aspect of this right.

    States shall:
    g) Facilitate access by those seeking body modifications related to gender reassignment to competent, non-discriminatory treatment, care and support;
    *******

    So that’s access to gender reassignment treatment dealt with very clearly. Principle 18 recognises that gender identity is not something only adults have, neither is it something that can be cured (say, by psychiatrists with aversion therapy or hormones etc):

    *******
    PRINCIPLE 18. Protection from Medical Abuses

    No person may be forced to undergo any form of medical or psychological treatment, procedure, testing, or be confined to a medical facility, based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Notwithstanding any classifications to the contrary, a person’s sexual orientation and gender identity are not, in and of themselves, medical conditions and are not to be treated, cured or suppressed.

    States shall:
    b) Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure that no child’s body is irreversibly altered by medical procedures in an attempt to impose a gender identity without the full, free and informed consent of the child in accordance with the age and maturity of the child and guided by the principle that in all actions concerning children, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration;
    c) Establish child protection mechanisms whereby no child is at risk of, or subjected to, medical abuse;
    f) Ensure that any medical or psychological treatment or counselling does not, explicitly or implicitly, treat sexual orientation and gender identity as medical conditions to be treated, cured or suppressed.
    *******

    And so on. The yogyakarta principles are a good first step towards rights for all gender or sexual minorities, whatever you may wish to call yourself. Hate it but read it first so you know what you’re hating (it may just be the wrong thing to try and spread misinformation about).

  63. diva ex machina:
    > oatc:
    >> So, when transgender people… didn’t include any provision for the
    >> process of changing sex (hormones and surgery), or stipulation
    >> that children can be transsexual, and should have appropriate
    >> rights too…
    >
    > There is plenty of that in the yogyakarta principles.
    > Principle 17 goes like this:
    >
    > States shall:
    >
    > g) Facilitate access by those seeking body modifications related
    > to gender reassignment to competent, non-discriminatory
    > treatment, care and support;
    >
    > *******
    >
    > So that’s access to gender reassignment treatment dealt with
    > very clearly.

    Only if you think allowing people access to names of practitioners somewhere else in the world is sufficient. The section is completely unspecific and useless.

    > Principle 18 recognises that gender identity is
    > not something only adults have…
    >
    > States shall:
    >
    > b) Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other
    > measures to ensure that no child’s body is irreversibly altered
    > by medical procedures in an attempt to impose a gender identity
    > without the full, free and informed consent of the child in
    > accordance with the age and maturity of the child and guided by
    > the principle that in all actions concerning children, the best
    > interests of the child shall be a primary consideration;

    No, as I stated, quite correctly, on the basis of full familiarity with the document, that does not state that children can be transsexual too, and should have appropriate rights. It instead lays down multiple protections against a child getting treatment but none to enable a child to obtain desperately needed treatment, and none against an unwanted puberty being forced upon a child by denial of medical procedures.

    In unhelpfully raising the odd specter of medical treatment being used to “impose a gender identity” upon a child it seems inspired by the transvestic fantasy of “forced feminisation” rather than the all too real living nightmare that most transsexual children face.

    In most countries the reference to full consent of the child would be taken as a block on any treatment until adulthood, which case be taken sometimes to be as late as 21.

    The Principles were used to deny SRS without parental consent until age 21, and until 18 with parental consent, in Thailand; the country where young people from other countries, freely consenting and with parental consent, had been able access the world’s best surgeons at 16. In effect imposing, in the most draconian manner, a sexual age of consent of 18 worldwide on T->F people, unless they really go through the hoops of multiple psychiatrists and the courts in rare countries such as Germany or Spain in order to access worse surgery at 16.

    > c) Establish child protection mechanisms whereby no child is at
    > risk of, or subjected to, medical abuse;

    Whilst we would see a child being forced to undergo an unwanted and harmful puberty, or being forced to live in the wrong gender role as abuse, without it being spelled out, which the principles fail to do, most countries would not realise it was abuse, so that clause is again toothless.

    Indeed, the poor excuse for a T campaigning charity that is GIRES describes the protocol that most transsexual children need as “child abuse”, so it too could be used against the transsexual children, not on their behalf.

    > And so on. The yogyakarta principles are a good first step
    > towards rights for all gender or sexual minorities, whatever you
    > may wish to call yourself. Hate it but read it first so you know
    > what you’re hating (it may just be the wrong thing to try and
    > spread misinformation about).

    You didn’t answer my points at all, and I stand by them. Indeed, you remind me how sick the Priciples really are, and how much blame the transgender activists who wrote them, without even allowing transsexual campaigners to know such a document was in preparation, deserve.

  64. I find it interesting that some of you, who have identified as transexual in this thread, are placing boundaries around someone who is merely providing a unique and personal definition of transexual. It would be like a non transexual person saying to you that you can’t be the opposite gender because even if you have had surgery your DNA shows you are a specific gender. Its wrong. To limit the definition of transexual to physical characteristics is a step back for people like yourself. As transexual people you should understand, most of all, the negative impact of the prejudices and boundaries that surround gender and gender roles. Does it matter if someone is transgendered or transexual? It seems a moot point to me. Shouldn’t we be happy that someone is so supremely comfortable with their body, regardless of gender? Hell, I’m proud of the guy!

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