I’ve not read the Koran but I’d imagine if it has a strong stance against gay people – and if this guy was religious – then surely he’s bound to feel extremely torn and frustrated. Being gay is not a choice.
People who are anti gay – that is a choice though.
As I said in another post in my view consenting mutual love should be more important than religion.
Notice how quickly the BBC respond and apologise for any offence caused with regard to what might be seen as the negative coverage of a religion.
The Koran is a work of fiction.
How utterly absurd that they would be worried about causing offence because a fictional character slams a work of fiction against a table. The fact that certain stupid, uneducated people believe that the bible, koran or torah is the word of ‘god’ is those people’s problem.
The BBC should not be worried about not causing offence to those suffering from religious superstition.
The BBC didn’t apologise when I complained about them showing some footage of a wheelchair user tipping backwards and landing on the pavement – this was put on a comedy show!!!! It made me sick.
StephenC: I’d like to say that we’re all entitled to our beliefs, but I’m fed up of defending mine on here, so I’ll settle for ‘piss off’. Yes, I think it’s over the top taking offence because he slammed the Koran down on the table – my bible was used to raise my computer screen to a more comfortable height for years, it was just the right size – but as much as you and I have a right to live our lives as homosexuals, I also have the right to live my life as a Christian, and the derogetary comments I’ve heard on here about people of faith sicken me.
@StephenC. I’m with you Stephen, particularly when it comes to the Desert Death Cult who are always whining on about some so-called ‘offence caused’. The Taliban and the corner shop keepers all read from the same song-sheet although some are more active than others. Don’t let them fool you, “ALL infidels are to be either killed or enslaved” says their magic book and all death cultists are working on this, day by day, complaint by complaint.
Galadriel1010 – “I also have the right to live my life as a Christian, and the derogetary comments I’ve heard on here about people of faith sicken me. ”
Fair enough. But how is my laughing at your belief in ‘god’ effecting your ability to live your life, as you seem to imply?
And you have to accept that my comments laughing at your choice to believe in ‘god’ is not actially derogatory. It does not discriminate against you for any reason over which you have no control. Your choice to believe in ‘god’ is as valid as a belief in the tooth fairy of course. But it only deserves the same amount of respect as a belief in the tooth fairy.
Please bear in mind also, that if religions were not so disgustingly homophobic and hatemongering, then no-one would be criticising them.
Some children believe in Santa Claus. Good for them. You believe in ‘god’ – good for you.
But you CHOOSE to believe in ‘god’. Gay people do not choose to be gay. Yet religious groups are usually viciously hateful and hatemongering towards gay people.
Why you choose to hang out with a ‘god’ who most religions believe hates you is your choice.
When I laugh at your beliefs I am not discrminating against you based on your age, race, sex, sexuality, colour, physical ability. I’m laughing at your freely chosen beliefs.
When religions starts promoting hatred against gay people, they are engaging in incitement over which the targets of their hatemongering ie gay people, have no control.
We do not choose to be gay. People DO choose to be religious. And religious people are far more vicious in their hatreds than atheists are.
Criticism by atheists of believers in ‘god’
Newspaniard: “I’m with you Stephen, particularly when it comes to the Desert Death Cult”
Christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism. sikhism are all as crazy and fictional and absurd as each other.
So long as these cults do not try to impose their superstitious beliefs on everyone they should be ignored.
Unfortunately most religions are not willing to show the same respect to other grouos, that they demand for their absurd beliefs.
I’m not surprised. The thing about religions is that they HAVE to kick up a fuss about ridiculous things like this, otherwise they risk letting the smoke and mirrors act drop and being forced to admit that they are irrelevant private hobby groups with no more moral or intellectual importance than a scrabble club or a football team. The more absurd the religion, the more mundane, everyday and irrelevant things it has to kick up a fuss about – in order to maintain the fiction that its believers are somehow different from the rest of us. It’s pure self-aggrandising exceptionalism.
> Fair enough. But how is my laughing at your belief in ‘god’ effecting your ability to live your life, as you seem to imply?
It is just bad manners.
Spot on, de Villiers (10)
To StephenC, I know this isn’t my argument but I feel like I need to make a few points here. You are critasising religion because of a limited numbers’ hatred and homophobia, that makes you just as bad as the people who think we are all promiscous sex mad “creatures” for you are judging a large number of people by the views of the limited few and yes this is not discrimination but this is the equilvent of when people point and laugh at the “faggot”, it’s just not a nice experience. And religious people are not stupid to believe in a God, I know a fair bit of science and the whole concept of a God is a very much possibilty that would be extremely difficult to prove or disprove.
Theses religious fools need to be challenged with rational criticism at every opportunity.
They suffer from delusions.
The Quran doesn’t say too much about homosexuality, the Bible says far more. My puppy has gotten hold of one of my copies, no damage done, couple of dents. It’s still readable. So what?
Organised religion is the problem, not faith itself. Not religion. Just organised religion. It is this that insists on treating a piece of card and paper as holy. Stupid really. Real faith rests not on books or prophets, but on what you know in your heart.
Islam, unfortunately, can’t seem to grasp this. It insists, in all it’s sects and divisions, that the material is more important than than the immaterial, with the possible exceptions of the Sufis. It is very much a carnal religion, and as such, can never be a religion of the heart. It addresses the feral, basic instincts, and tries to subvert them.
Sayeed slamming his Quran onto the table therefore is as grave a sin to Muslims as a Christian killing children is to Christians. It isn’t the level of violence or type of crime that is important, just that you do it.
Islam is medievalist and out of touch with reality.
No 10: De Villiers: “It is just bad manners.”
But it is not hatemongering.
I find people who believe in ‘god’ quite absurd but so long as they don’t try to interfere with my rights then they are free to believe whatever fairytales they like. I am laughing at the absurdity of a belief in an all powerful ‘god’ when no evidence exists to support his existence.
Compare that to the vile behaviour of the catholic church who actively campaign to deny gay people any legal status and who are encouraging genocide through their opposition to condom use. Or the religiously inspired death sentence for being gay which exist in Iran; Arabia; Yemen and potentially Uganda.
The “concept of god”? Whose “concept of god” would that be then? Because the “concept of god” held by the vast majority of religious people these days is so logically contradictory and internally incoherent that it’s not even wrong – it’s meaningless. If you can’t demonstrate the likelihood of something existing either way then BY DEFINITION it is unscientific, and hence irrelevant to our understanding of the world. Those concepts of god that can be evaluated using evidence, meanwhile, have flatly failed to be substantiated in any way, shape or form. Just because a few people who do science also believe in gods, that doesn’t make gods a scientific concept – all it does is demonstrate the well-known capacity of the human brain for cognitive dissonance.
Which also means that not all religious people are stupid. Some are, and there is an obvious attraction among stupid people to cultural forms which let them convince themselves they are clever. But most are just wrong. It is perfectly possible to be both intelligent and wrong about just about everything – Aristotle was fantastically clever, but he was wrong in nearly every respect. Newton was perhaps even cleverer, but he was fundamentally wrong about some things, as Einstein showed. Einstein himself was wrong about Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, and much else besides.
The main problem with religion is that it refuses to acknowledge just how wrong it is, and is not open to correction in light of better evidence. This is an unwarranted intellectual arrogance of the highest calibre.
I think Eastenders have been doing a good job with this storyline. Many families initially disown their gay children and later begin to accept them. It looks ever likely that his family will accept him being gay as the story progresses. Will the viewers complain then?
Anyway it’s high profile for a gay couple on the most popular TV soap. The more straight people see it on their favourite soap every episode, the more they’ll get used to the fact that being gay is completely natural. Lets just hope Eastenders don’t throw in a death or something and spoil it all.
“Sayeed slamming his Quran onto the table therefore is as grave a sin to Muslims as a Christian killing children is to Christians”
– Jennifer Hynes
I think you will find that this act is actually encouraged in their bible.
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
All of these silly belief systems are as bad as each other.
No one’s concept in particular, there are 6 billion people, I don’t know how many of them believe in God but that’s too many different concepts of God but I am just speaking of having a concept in God that he exists in some sort of form. If you can’t find evidence enough to prove something as an almost certianty then it remains a theory unproven but still very much possible, of course some people hang onto these “holy” texts, word for word and will just act arrogant and shut all out but not all, probably not most but I dont have the statistics but it would also be arrogant to assume all religious people are wrong and stupid.
It is only as arrogant to say that all religious people are wrong about their religious claims as it is to say that everyone who believes in Santa Claus is wrong about the existence of Santa Claus. Neither is at all plausible as a hypothesis, and there is absolutely no evidence for either. Religious claims are, by definition, without evidence to support them, because if there WAS evidence to support them then they would be accepted by everyone else – not just members of the religions which espouse them.
And I’m afraid that’s not how the scientific method works. In fact it’s precisely the opposite of how science works. The burden of proof is on the person with the extraordinary claim – science is about disproving null hypotheses, not credulously believing in everything that hasn’t been comprehensively disproved (because, aside from logical contradictions, that’s basically just about everything we know). Although, even if it were, the existence of gods as pretty much every religious person alive today conceives them HAS been comprehensively disproved, simply because all traditional theistic ideas are logically contradictory or flat-out wrong in light of the evidence. Omnipotence? Omniscience? Atemporality? Ultimate goodness? all deeply flawed and logically inconsistent concepts of themselves, let alone together with such banal anthropomorphic ideas as sentience and personality. It behoves us to treat these ideas as “very much possible” in the same way it behoves us to treat the idea that I have an invisible, pink four-sided hexagon drawn on the wall of my cupboard as “very much possible” – i.e. not at all.
Theistic ideas, by any reasonable standard you care to name, are just flat-out wrong. This is the 21st century. We’ve sent spacecraft to bloody Neptune for goodness’ sake! It’s about time such facts were universally recognised and called for what they are.
@StephenC: It’s not affecting my life, any more than calling me a dyke would, but it’s hurtful, and until this conversation you didn’t even know me. What did I do to deserve being called ‘stupid and uneducated’?
The same goes for VP and SamB, and probably others. If you get to know me properly and decide that I’m stupid, then you can call me stupid. Until that point, a sweeping generalisation is offensive, hurtful and narrow minded.
And FWIW, I never chose my faith. I chose the church I practice with, but my faith is something I’ve been unable to shake.
Homosexuality in the Koran:
Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.–7:80-81
Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? 7:80-81
Male homosexual activities are condemned as unnatural. 26:165-6
Male homosexuals commit abominations and act senselessly. 27:54-55
Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29
and Sharia (the sacred law of Islam) is much worse.
@George Broadhead, PTT. And there are those who would introduce Sharia into the UK… What chance for us infidels?
I wonder if the people who complained about the treatment of a book – a book! – in a TV drama are the same as those who complained about the character Christian being beaten up by Muslim thugs.
Somehow I think not.
Santa Claus? a man, a physical being who spends all year creating billions of presents, physical objects and in one single night travel much faster than the speed of light to spread these billion of objects around the world, of which no adult has reported presents mysteriously appearing without any other explanation other than Santa Claus, there has been no report of people finding his massive factory and warehouse needed to create and store these presents though I suppose they could possibly be underground but it is obvious that this being would not be possible in the physical world. But maybe on a spiritual level, on a level we can’t see there might be a Santa, one that creates that strange magical feeling that seems to be around that time of year.
I am not claiming that there is scientific proof for God but scientific methods is that everything is possible until it is proven right or wrong. When the Hadron Collider was about to do the experiments some people were believing it could create a black hole, the only reason this was, was because when a scientist was asked, he gave a scientific answer and said it was possible. To rule out something without proof is unscientific.
Ok, an all powerful, all knowing, all good God is a bit questionable, I am not sure myself, it’s hard to consider what an all good being would do in this world, whether one exists already but we do not notice or maybe an all good being by being all good can only allow free will and chance to affect the world. I don’t know, I would have to think very hard about the concepts to consider whether they are possible or not but what about just a God that might not be totally all powerful, all knowing and all good but one that did create this world we know, isn’t this very much possible?
People who watch Eastenders are physically and mentally equipped to pick up a phone and make a complaint? I’m as surprised as anyone. I figured the average viewer was a drooling chav too busy flicking thru’ the Argos catalogue to know or care what was being done to a copy of the Koran on their favourite show.
the koran and islam wants gays dead
therefore it is little to only slam it
muslims should change the koran
i have an ongoing law suit against the hateful words in the bible and the Koran still fails to be resolved
these books of faith are non proven
non proven lies
there cannot be an insult to a book of lies ?
should we be ruled by lies .
gays are here before religion and will be there after
you can eliminate a religion
but not eliminate homosexuality
Oh Koran, I first read the headline as Korean. Well, that’s not nearly as interesting
The Quaran actually says nothing about homosexuality. They don’t follow the new testament, so the only bit about gays is a vague reference in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Called the story of Lot in Islam), in the old testament. But Christians and Jews alike usually interpret the reason for god destroying the cities due to their rudeness, rather than their gayness.
Besides, nothing wrong with slamming a paper weight onto a table.
To make it clear, mainstream Islam does not preach random violence against homosexual people, nor hate of any other human being, but does regard the homosexual act itself as being against God’s natural laws, and therefore against the interests of human beings and human society. Islam is a merciful, and extremely tolerant religion, but Muslims believe (like believing Jews and Christians and many others) that the homosexual tendency is not a good, normal or natural feeling, and needs treatment as a psychological, and emotional illness, or a biological abnormality, as it would be seen amongst animals, for the true long term happiness of all affected. The consequence, in this world, of not finding solutions to cure homosexuality in this way, is the spread of confusion about sexuality, and the break down of the normal family structure, as well as in the normal upbringing of children, e.g. to have normal relationships. This would lead to other psychological and emotional problems, contributing to a breakdown in society, and possible rises in crime, all of which will cause far greater misery and suffering in the long term. Of course Muslims also strongly believe that consequences for the soul after death are a reality, which can be far worse, and therefore believe in guiding and helping people to avoid all of this.
Only in an Islamic state, where people are fully educated about their human nature, feelings, and other Islamic knowledge, including the Islamic laws, as well as where people would have ample opportunity and help to have successful heterosexual marriages, as well as affectionate platonic friendships, would homosexual acts be prosecutable at all, and only a minority of cases would they be punishable, as the act itself has to have at least 4 witnesses, as evidence!! It is only the public shameless act and promotion of homosexuality that is seen as dangerous enough to prosecute, with severe physical punishment as a last resort, particularly in cases where there is no repentance. This is needed as an effective deterrent, and a clear message that homosexuality needs to be challenged, not accepted as normal, and not allowed full freedom to spread.
The word Islam itself means the ‘way of peace’, and it is only ignorant people, or even ignorant governments who do not put Islam into practise correctly, who may commit injustices, or go to extremes. The solution is more and better education from mainstream, highly knowledgeable scholars of Islam, not less!!