Enter your email address to receive our daily LGBT news roundup

You're free to unsubscribe at any time.

Doctors declare ‘gay cure’ therapies harmful

Post your comment

Comments on this article are now closed.

Reader comments

  1. Quote: “Health departments should also investigate alleged cases of conversion therapy being funded by the NHS, the meeting agreed.”

    Good news. Let’s hope they act if they find any. Conversion therapy is not only ineffective, the very idea is highly offensive. It’s an attempt to ‘normalise’ people who have nothing wrong with them. I’ve yet to see thereapy for a straight person who wants to become gay. But, of course, that wouldn’t exist because straight people are ‘normal’ and don’t need to be corrected.

    Has anyone seen this astounding story, by the way?:

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism

    Not only trying to cure lesbianism but reinforcing gender roles. Sinister doesn’t even begin to describe it.

  2. Deeside Will 2 Jul 2010, 12:48pm

    Excellent news. Brightened up my day no end.

  3. Jock S. Trap 2 Jul 2010, 1:13pm

    These therapies should be banned, they serve no purpose other than to harm individuals. If it was a harmful drug we were talking about it would be banned. This is No different. People who practise these therapies should face jail.

  4. another case of the bloody obvious being said
    next news report will be that the sky is blue during the day

  5. About time and well done the BMA, however I think it doesn’t go far enough and I would like to see those who push & promote this “therapy” prosecuted, it’s completely fraudulent, it’s dangerous and it’s offensive.

  6. Psychotherapy in general seems to have little scientific basis and so is wide open to people who simply promote their own hang-ups and prejudices. Witchcraft always attracts quacks and tricksters. Controlling it all is probably a pretty tall order.

  7. Anyone else think it’s a bit worrying that only 2/3 of the medics voted against these discredited therapies…. i.e. 1 in 3 think conversion is ok and appropriate?

  8. With regards the 1 in 3 that did not vote against accrediated therapies. . .

    One of the most homophobic therapies still avialable on the NHS is psychoanalytic/psychodynmaic therapy. The theory base of this therapy predominately views homosexuality as either an arrested development or sexual perversion.

    The largest organisation within the NHS offering psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapies if the Tavistock Clinic in Swiss cottage London.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    A Brief history of the the Tavistock clinics involvement in Gay Cures

    Charles W. Socarides was a Past-President of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), which he helped found in 1992.

    He reported that “about a third” of his patients became heterosexual after treatment

    He lectured on his research findings in London at the Anna Freud Centre, the Portman Clinic, the Tavistock Clinic NHS Trust, and before the British Psychoanalytical Society.(BPAS)

    All of the above psychotherapy training institutes belong to the British Psychoanalytic Council (BPC), this organisation was previously called the British Confederation of Psychotherapists (BCP). They claim that this has not influenced or that it does not continue to influence their practices and philosophy. http://www.psychoanalytic-council.org/main/index.php?page=15043

    A study in the The British Journal of Psychiatry (2001) 179: 545-549, Micheal King, Annie Bartlett and Peter Phillips found the following in relation to the BPC then the BCP

    Gays and lesbians seeking psychoanalysis or psychotherapy in the National Health Service or outside it for personal and/or training purposes will be unlikely to find a gay or lesbian therapist if they want one. The British Confederation of Psychotherapists’ practitioners take on gay and lesbian clients/patients, although many do not see these social identities as relevant to the therapeutic process. Evidence from this study indicates that such clients/patients may encounter overt or covert bias, including the pathologisation of homosexuality per se.

    http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/179/6/545?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Michael+king&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=40&resourcetype=HWCIT

    Socarides was honoured by the Association of Psychoanalytic Psychotherapists, an organization formed of members of the English NHS and NHS Wales, in April 1995.
    (Made up mainly of BPC psychoanalytic psychotherapists and psychoanalysts)

    The award from the APP created controversy. Following a meeting of Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility, a Letter of Concern by Andrew Samuels, Joanna Ryan, and Mary Lynne Ellis expressing dismay at the invitation to Socarides to give the annual APP lecture was circulated.
    http://pagesperso-orange.fr/paul.bailey/psyhomo.htm

    NHS Consultants in psychoanalytic psychotherapy train predominately at BPC organisations

  9. PumpkinPie 2 Jul 2010, 10:40pm

    Excellent news. They took their time, but they are methodical sorts, I guess.

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism

    Yes! Somebody had a link to that story on a messageboard I frequent. Highly disturbing stuff.

  10. Great to hear at least a majority of medical professionals got their heads on the right way! Now for things like this to come State-side, as we all know the US tends to be a decade or so behind the rest of the civilized worlds progressions. Especially with Canada going on its 5 year anniversary of gay marriage rights for all across the country!

  11. And those medical professionals that didn’t agree are the ones who are practicing reparative therapy.

  12. Tom Hennessy 3 Jul 2010, 7:04am

    Someone explain to me then IF homosexuality CANNOT be ‘treated’ HOW can a person get a half million dollar settlement for BECOMING a homosexual DUE TO a car accident ? It is WELL KNOWN scientifically that the body produces more female hormones AFTER a traumatic brain injury. COULD that be WHY he became a homosexual ?? Science wise would say YES. Simply because he GOT that settlement BEFORE science FOUND that female hormones DO RISE after a traumatic brain injury. Just saying ..

  13. It is good to se them condemning reparative therapy in gay people for what it is, abuse.

    It is unfortunate that they also do not condemn reparative tehreapy in transsexual children.

  14. #13 – I’m struggling a liitle to be polite, but I’m going to try. ‘Female’ hormones are sometimes given to reduce brain swelling after a traumatic head injury. They do NOT feminise the recipient nor do they ‘turn them gay’.

    As for the award you mentioned – well, that would be in the US, wouldn’t it….? What you’re saying is quite simply untrue. You’re clutching at straws big time there. Try:

    http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/science/causal_studies.html

    Or were you thinking of this??:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1045772/

  15. JohnK:
    > Join the discussion on Facebook – http://www.faceboo

    Why would anyone join a discussion on a place where there is no privacy?

    As one expects the discussions turn out to be stupid.

    For example this comment there:
    > Johnk Kay: With the BMA and the RCP on the case . . . the
    > days or numbered for reparative therapists – they will have to
    > earn their living else were, rahter than feeding parasitically
    > on vulnerable and distressed LGBT people.

    Note the T. Totally and utterly oblivious to the nasty fact that the BMA resolution, the expose story, the policies of organizations that condemn reparative therapy all ignore that it was developed (by George W Rekers) for use on trans children and is still used on trans children, and its main advocate is so honoured that he edits Archives of Sexual Behavior and chairs the APA committee writing the Sexual and ender Disorders section of the diagnostic manual, which he intends will continue to class transsexual people as mentally disordered, enabling the continued use of reparative therapy.

    He was over in London 20 months ago, as a guest of a medical institute, helping justify their use of reparative therapy, and spoke at another conference where I saw him attack in fury the mother of teenage transsexual girl for not having taken he daughter to a suitable reparative therapist at a young age. This was in front of the daughter after the rest of the attendees had listened to the mother describe the terrible things the girl, and her family had gone though due to the wrong advice from NHS therapists who claimed her mind would change if their treatment was followed.

    LGB people all seem to think that trans people completely deserve quack shrinks messing with their minds, and lives. So much so that they say it just isn’t reparative therapy if it isn’t being used on LGBs.

    But what is doubly insane about that is that for twenty years the mental health professions have been using a deliberately over-broad set of diagnostic criteria that have swept many gender-role-non-conforming lesbian and gay children into their gender clinics, where they have been falsely pathologised then come out the end still lesbian and gay (naturally), in the cause of creating outcome results which purport, falsely, to show that transsexual children get turned lesbian or gay. So, by allowing reparative therapy against trans, lesbian and gay children have been suffering it. But don’t worry, its intended that those criteria now be tightened so its only transsexuals suffer it in future.

  16. Tom Hennessy 3 Jul 2010, 3:02pm

    Quote: ‘Female’ hormones are sometimes given to reduce brain swelling after a traumatic head injury. They do NOT feminise the recipient nor do they ‘turn them gay’.

    Answer: The effect is evidenced in people with hypogonadism. They begin to grow breasts and their body hair falls out. IF that ISN’T “feminisation” I don’t know what feminisation is. Fifty percent of people with HIV manifest hypogonadism. In a disease which at one time was considered to BE a **homosexual** disease AND as you would say “coincidentally” manifests lack of testosterone at a fifty percent rate as an old horse player the ODDS of there NOT being a hormone problem WHEN such a high rate of those with a homosexuals disease HAVE NO MALE HORMONES .. just coincidence .. right.

  17. I don’t want to get too off topic here – but I want to respond to some themes that may be evident from the posts above. I am hearing a good deal of suspicion and wariness surrounding the psychotherapies.

    I also get the feel that psychotherapy, as a discipline, seems to be being tarred with the same brush. As an academic and practitioner in the field let me debunk some myths.

    Psychoanalytic (in practice) bears little relation nowadays to the original work of Freud. Although there are some good elements of the original theories, e.g. projection, transferences etc.. which are applicable today and helpful.

    I am not well versed with the psychodynamic approach.

    However, there is much scientific research to support the claims of psychotherapy theories, and to claim dearth, rather than (very arguable) lack of credibility, is simply naive.

    The humanistic therapies e.g. Person-centred and, my field, Gestalt therapy are fundamentally client-orientated, process-orientated and adamentally against labels. Person centred and Gestalt therapists honour the unique experiences and frames of reference of individual clients and ‘use’ the therapeutic relationship to support clients in finding a better balance between themselves their environment, in their own terms and in their own way. Homosexuality (for instance), in no way shape or form is seen as more or less preferrable than heterosexuality. (Although I do not wish to marginalise bi, trans, questioning…people here – i just simplify the field in order to make a point, this is not a failure to recognie the wonderfully diverse field of human sexuality).

    I don’t expect anyone to believe me, per se. However, I do want to offer the alternative narrative that not all psychotherapies are bad, fascist (i.e. other-controlling) and indeed some stem from and are growing within an incredibly rich and dependable research context.

    Thanks.

  18. Tom Hennessy 3 Jul 2010, 5:02pm

    http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/120/18_MeetingAbstracts/S1441-c

    “Conclusions: CSF levels of estradiol in TBI patients are much higher than in normal individuals. This increased estradiol appears to be produced in the brain, and is associated with improved outcomes. Further studies are necessary to validate these finding.”

  19. Tom Hennessy 3 Jul 2010, 5:11pm

    http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/829

    “It was concluded that the elevated plasma estradiol concentrations of the homosexual group are a biological feature of this group and may be associated with the homosexual behavior.”

  20. #17 – You made no mention of hypogonadism in your first post. I know of a family friend who had that but he didn’t ‘turn gay’. I believe he had some kind of tumour which caused a hormone imbalance. He was married to a woman when he developed it (he was in his 40s, I think) and he’s still married now.

    Are you implying that gay men are feminised – hence their sexuality? Presumably you also think that lesbians are masculinised?? Sweeping generalisations there which are pointless really, and as much use as gender generalisations.

    And do you have evidence for your statements about HIV sufferers?

  21. Tom Hennessy 3 Jul 2010, 5:23pm

    Quote: And do you have evidence for your statements about HIV sufferers

    Answer :”Gonadal, adrenal, and thyroid functions were evaluated in 70 men seropositive for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, clinically categorized as asymptomatic (n = 19), AIDS-related complex (ARC) (n = 9), or acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) (n = 42). Twenty of 40 men (50 percent) with AIDS were hypogonadal.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3348269?dopt=Abstract

  22. JohnK:
    > The largest organisation within the NHS offering
    > psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapies if the Tavistock Clinic
    > in Swiss cottage London.

    Not to mention that they train most of the psychothapists elsewhere in the country, and most child and family therapists and psychiatric social workers.

    Or that, when the Gender Rcognition Act was going though parliament a group from there wrote to the press saying that allowing a change of legal sex would just encourage people who needed curing by psychotherapy.

    Or that, since 1989 it has ensured that it be the only clinic in the country for transsexual children and that all clinics elsewhere in Europe refuse them any alternative (some now get better help in America). So that there is no doctor in the UK with any experience of any other treatment.

    Or that, last year, the Labour minister for children’s health, despite having also personally approved a booklet which advised taking a child to the USA, approved their getting an officially monopoly contract which also covers a new, closely tied branch in Manchester, without the normal scrutiny taking place and only the clinic’s inhouse support group and GIRES being consulted.

  23. Tom H – ignoring the age of some of those studies, I fail to see your point. The last study you posted shows that some men who were HIV positive had hypogonadism. It doesn’t follow on from that that ALL gay men have hypogonadism. Moreover, you misquoted the research. You said “Fifty percent of people with HIV manifest hypogonadism” whereas the study says “Twenty of 40 men (50 percent) with *AIDS* were hypogonadal” (my asterisks) – that’s 20 of 70 overall in the study.

    You also said: “In a disease which at one time was considered to BE a **homosexual** disease AND as you would say “coincidentally” manifests lack of testosterone at a fifty percent rate as an old horse player the ODDS of there NOT being a hormone problem WHEN such a high rate of those with a homosexuals disease HAVE NO MALE HORMONES .. just coincidence .. right. ”

    That’s just gobbledygook. Read my causality quote above. Firstly, HIV/AIDS is NOT a ‘homosexuals disease’ as you put it. In many areas of the world the majority of sufferers are straight men. And you seem to be ignoring gay women here. Reminds me of the fundies that.

    And how about the proof that head injuries make you gay? I don’t think you’ve provided that yet.

    If specific low levels of hormone were the cause of gayness, then that’d have been discovered and announced years ago. It hasn’t – because they’re not. Hormone levels in gay men and women vary just as they do in the straight population.

    Gay men can be ‘feminine’ but so can straight men. Gay men can also be extremely masculine, as can straight men. You can’t do a hormone levels blood test on a group of people and pick out the gay ones.

    A question, if I may – are YOU gay?

  24. Tom Hennessy 4 Jul 2010, 12:44am

    Quote: HIV/AIDS
    Answer: THEN you go ON to say that there “is a difference between those with HIV and AIDS” ..
    I will therefore take your POINTING OUT that **I** said AIDS but according to YOU HIV ? AIDS is the same thing .. BUT when it is CONVENIENT you point out that someone MENTIONED .. aids and therefore NOT hiv .. ?
    Twist things .. like TWISTED people dooooo ..
    HIGH rates of estradiol found in homosexuals is “suggested” to be “part and parcel” OF .. the homosexual ..
    HIGH rates of estradiol found in those with TBI which coincidentally TURNS A MAN GAY ..
    YOU “don’t like” the FACT the COURTS have FOUND traumatic brain injury CAUSES homosexuality and DISMISS it on the basis of .. ? .. the United States people as a whole are DIFFERENT from the rest of the world.
    Again .. real .. convenient BUT of no consequence BECAUSE according to the COURTS and THEY are all that really matters homosexuality IS .. **acquired** and therefore .. **treatable** .. and since YOU have ALREADY expressed YOUR ‘opinion’ based on nothing BUT your .. opinion .. whereas EVERYTHING .. **I** have stated is accompanied BY a citation a MEDICAL citation and between courts and doctors YOU have no leg to stand on .. UNLESS you can come up with an APPEAL to the half million dollar settlement AFFORDED the heterosexual man who was TURNED INTO A HOMOSEXUAL DUE TO A CAR ACCIDENT / traumatic brain injury.

  25. oatc
    > The largest organisation within the NHS offering
    > psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapies is the Tavistock Clinic
    > in Swiss cottage London.

    Monopoly on trans, social work and family therapy

    . . . . .

    I agree. . .

    They are also highly homophobic, as if still set in the 1950s with invidious regressive sterotypes, attitudes and morality.

    It is about time we exposed this homophobic institute

  26. Richard wrote
    “Psychoanalytic (in practice) bears little relation nowadays to the original work of Freud. Although there are some good elements of the original theories, e.g. projection, transferences etc.. which are applicable today and helpful.”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Richard, I agree there are some good elements to psychodynamic/psychoanalytic psychotherapies.

    . . . however there is still masive homophobia within the training institutes attached to the BPC (British psychoanalytic council) – the largest being the Tavistock clinic

    The Tavistock clinic invited NARTH in the 1990s to speak about curing homosexulality . . . reparative therapy still goes on at the clinic but in a covert form – the euphamisms for it are “Lets call is depression, anxiety or relationship difficulties”

  27. Iris wrote
    “Not only trying to cure lesbianism but reinforcing gender roles. Sinister doesn’t even begin to describe it.”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    In my view the at the foundational level of reparative therapies is a spurious notion of gender, all be it in a stereotypical form. . . or a rather a warped 1950s perspective resting on button up regressive gender politics . . .

    Still alive and kicking at the Tavistock clinic . . . I might add

  28. Zoe Brain 4 Jul 2010, 9:58am

    Some useful reading. First, on post-natal effects of hormones: Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure by Pol et al, Europ Jnl Endocrinology, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006

    Results: Compared with controls, anti-androgen + estrogen treatment decreased brain volumes of male-to-female subjects towards female proportions, while androgen treatment in female-to-male subjects increased total brain and hypothalamus volumes towards male proportions.

    Conclusions: The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain.

    Far more important, and relevant though, is the far greater effect of hormones during foetal development. See Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

    The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

    There are degrees: many who are exclusively heterosexual, and a few exclusively homosexual, are at least potentially bisexual to a greater or lesser degree. But a lot really are exclusive. For some, it’s a choice. Usually “straights” who say that it’s a choice, because for them, it is. For for most, it’s not.

  29. Apart from being almost impossible to read that nonsense you write, Tom Hennessy, due to your bizarre use of capitalisation, you clear have no idea what you’re talking about.

    There is zero evidence that Hypogonadism causes homosexuality. And besides, male hypogonadism is most often treated with testosterone replacement therapy and is relatively common in ageing males. In fact, your comments are such nonsense, its hard to even begin to show how ridiculous they are. Where on earth are you getting this odd theory??? State your source.

    Why does this kind of article always unearth these “gay cure” lunatics?

  30. I’ve just noticed your use of the stupid term “homosexuals disease”, Tom.

    Sorry, I assumed your were just silly with a daft theory, clearly you’re one of these religious nutters who believes in a “gay cure”. “Gay cure” doesn’t exist, as its not a disease. Its just a disease in the warped minds of people like you… usually the same ones who believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution being a “belief system”. Sorry, all your silly theories won’t change the view of real scientists that its utter nonsense…. its in fact another term for denial.

  31. “Answer: THEN you go ON to say that there “is a difference between those with HIV and AIDS” ..
    I will therefore take your POINTING OUT that **I** said AIDS but according to YOU HIV ? AIDS is the same thing .. BUT when it is CONVENIENT you point out that someone MENTIONED .. aids and therefore NOT hiv .. ?
    Twist things .. like TWISTED people dooooo ..”

    I pointed out that you were MISQUOTING the figures – which is a perfectly reasonable reply to you. me writing HIV/AIDS does not mean they’re the ‘same thing’ – as I’m sure you well know – anymore than writing he/she means that the writer thinks the terms male and female are interchangeable.

    “YOU “don’t like” the FACT the COURTS have FOUND traumatic brain injury CAUSES homosexuality and DISMISS it on the basis of .. ? .. the United States people as a whole are DIFFERENT from the rest of the world.”

    No, I rejected it because the logic – ie cause and effect – was flawed. You suggested that the award paid to the accident victim was proof head trauma had turned him gay. I don’t believe it is.

    And I see that you chose not to answer my question about your sexuality – not that you needed to. I believe you’ve posted here before, haven’t you? Not under that name though…

    “TWISTED” (your capitals there) – well, as you’ve attempted to prove that being gay is simply a medical problem, then it’s rather strange that you should seek to call people suffering from this alleged problem ‘twisted’. You give yourself away many times over, ‘Tom’.

    I feel genuinely sorry for you. Your posts shows such rage, such disatisfaction with life, such resentment.

  32. Will, yes – it’s sad, isn’t it? I gave ‘Tom’ the benefit of the doubt (and spent time wading through his incoherence) only to find that he has no desire to discuss anything rationally or courteously.

    Stay tuned for his explanation and cure for being female/black/white/male/straight etc. How sad that some people are unable to see that the diversity of the human race is what makes it so beautiful, and that someone being different is not a threat.

  33. Thank you John K (post 27) for directing my awareness to this.

    I would also add that my experience of the BACP, UKCP and GPTI ethical guidlines seem in theory (and practice, according to my experience) embracive (and celebratory) of sexual minorities.

    I am still however very shocked (and sadened) to learn of current homophobia in the BPC. Homophobia just seems to contrary to all of the reputable evidence surrounding contemporary studies of homosexuality: psychological, sociological, anthropological etc…. I obviously do not include NARTH’s “research” in this regard as I recognise that it is of dubious credibility, dependability and not accepted by peer review journals – for good reason!

  34. Richard the recent statement made by the UKCP and BACP that they do not support reaprative therapies, is in my view largely a PR damage limitation exercise.

    The UKCP and BACP’s recent statements that they do not support gay cure therapies, is a response to Micheal Kings 2009 research which found reparative therapy alive and kicking amongst practioners in both the BACP, UKCP and BPS

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/26/homosexuality-gay-cure-treatment-orientation

  35. JohnK: “….at the foundational level of reparative therapies is a spurious notion of gender, all be it in a stereotypical form. . . or a rather a warped 1950s perspective resting on button up regressive gender politics . . .”

    I’d never considered that before in relation to reparative therapies, but you’re absolutely right. I think it’s often more evident in attitudes towards gay men – the sneering ‘you’re not a REAL man’ insults, the implications of all those playground taunts that I won’t repeat here. They all cast aspersions on the victim’s masculinity, and that, I feel is related to a misogynistic view of women as inferior. What an insult to suggest a boy may be ‘like a girl’…

    With regards to the article I linked to at the beginning of this, it’d be alomost funny if it wasn’t so nasty and plain weird. I mean the lady doing this research should, by her logic, be at home pregnant and baking cakes not doing ‘man’s work’ in medicine and research.

    I dislike all gender stereotyping. Anyone who seeks to impose such stereotypes on others must be either very insecure about themselves or resentful that they could have had a different life if they’d chosen a different path and so take out that resentment on people who DID exercise their choice.

    Indeed, attempts to ‘normalise’ people who have absolutely nothing wrong with them is offensive. I detest people who think they’re the epitome of normal and so can dictate to others how they should lead their lives.

    I’m still stunned that reparative therapy exists in the UK in 2010. It’s sick.

  36. “I gave ‘Tom’ the benefit of the doubt (and spent time wading through his incoherence) only to find that he has no desire to discuss anything rationally or courteously.”

    Indeed, Iris…. its the poor grammar and erratic shouting that leads me to think that poor Mr. Hennessy has far more issues to deal with than being just “ex-gay”.

  37. JohnK
    > . . . however there is still masive homophobia within the
    > training institutes attached to the BPC (British psychoanalytic
    > council) – the largest being the Tavistock clinic
    >
    > The Tavistock clinic invited NARTH in the 1990s to speak about
    > curing homosexulality . . . reparative therapy still goes on at
    > the clinic but in a covert form – the euphamisms for it are
    > “Lets call is depression, anxiety or relationship difficulties”

    I referenced the evidence of transphobia but could you reference any evidence of homophobia since that 1990s invitation? Not a challenge, just worried that I haven’t seen any evidence for what would be political dynamite.

    Clearly its in all their founding psychoanalytic texts – the Tavistock was, after founded by Anna Freud, who subjected the children of the woman she lived with to intense psychoanalysis in order to “prevent” homosexuality”, and is regarded as the founder of pediatric psychotherapy. It was deeply involved in “treating” homosexuals before decriminalisation, and fought hard against that move. But that was 40 years ago.

    Many there are also of the school of Melanie Klein. The reparative therapists of the children’s gender clinic there have the belief that transsexuality is “curable” by psychotherapy if the gender identity was formed during a “paranoid-schizoid” phase of development, but not if it was during a “depressive” phase (the Kleinian school only sees there being those two frames of mind). It is said to require extensive therapy to distinguish which it was, then a lot more if it was the former. But, they complain, most patients don’t want to cooperate. Its all total phooey though, obviously.

    The puzzle is why the NHS funds an NHS Foundation Trust entirely devoted to psychoanalytical practise and training. Its that they are under only their own people that allows the free hand. I guess they are highly political and have highly placed patients.

  38. Omg, go away Tom Hennessy. Take your holy book, kneel down and pray for your god to take away your feelings towards men. I’m SURE that will work. Better still kneel down in front of your local religious leader and fight it, fight it HARD Tom :D

    You need to realise that gay people are not broken, or wrong, or unnatural. Being gay is totally natural and has always existed. What harm does being gay do? What does two people loving each other do to you? Who even cares? I couldn’t give a rat’s arse who you love, or what you do in bed. Why on earth would I want to know something like that?

    Take your bad science and shove it where the sun don’t shine. Remember to do it only late at night of course, when the rest of the house is asleep :D

  39. Oact wrote
    “I referenced the evidence of transphobia but could you reference any evidence of homophobia since that 1990s invitation? Not a challenge, just worried that I haven’t seen any evidence for what would be political dynamite.”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Micheal Kings (2009) research found reparative therapy alive and kicking amongst practioners in both the BACP, UKCP and BPS (British psychological society).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/26/homosexuality-gay-cure-treatment-orientation

    All psychodynamic / psychoanalytic thinking is predominately influenced by the Institute of Psychoanalysis or the BPAS as it is known, this is still the pivotal institute shaping psychoanalytic practice in this country . . . if UKCP,BACP or BPS practioners are still practicing reparative therapy . . . one does not need to look too far as to why and where they dervive their theoretical base – The international Jounral of psychoanalysis is edited in this country at the BPAS, and most of the books outlining Kleinian, contemporary Freudian or the Indpendent tradtion within psychoanalysis have been written by analysts from the BPAS.

    The internal Jounral of psychoanalysis continues to publish papers pathologising homosexuality, or providing technical guidance as to its cure.

    The BPAS has produced many books in its monograph series, and one does not need to look very hard to find that since the 1920s to the 2010; psychopathologising and homophobic discourse is still alive and kicking in its publications.

  40. Hi Iris

    I agree there is a strange predictable sneering which gets directed at gay men, in their daring to transgress the boundary; and to challenge what it is to be man.

    Desiring men sexually, and relating to men questions what it is to be a man – since the very idea of not being a heterosexual man brings into question . . .

    “what do we mean by masculinity, and what do we mean by femininity”

    . . . that gay men and women challenge and renegotiate this in relationship to each other is a massive threat to patriarchy, and the implicit misogyny inherent in conservative heterosexual institutions such as marriage.

    The fact that reparative therapy is still alive – also highlights and try’s to hide in its act of annihilation, the regressive gender politics built on patriarchy which is oppressive not only women but ultimately also men.

  41. Tom Hennessy 6 Jul 2010, 12:48am

    Quote: Take your bad science and shove it where the sun don’t shine
    Answer: They are NOW going to make SURE there are no mutated gays by simply treating IN the womb. THAT is “bad science” too ? Those ‘doctors’ who removed homosexuality from the DSM are “bad scientists” too .. ? Or is it more convenient for YOU to pick and choose WHO are the ‘bad scientists’ .. ? You wouldn’t know bad science if it bit you. Dancing naked in the street doesn’t make for mental illness does it ..

  42. :D Hennessy. What planet do you live on? Gay a choice or genetic, who cares, I don’t, does it even matter? It’s a free world isn’t it? What are you so afraid of? I’ll sleep with who I want, when I want. Why does that anger you so?

    Chill out, go and get laid or something.

    On the other hand you could well be right, I’m sure they’ll find an idiot gene soon, then we won’t have to listen to drivel from people like you.

  43. “Or is it more convenient for YOU to pick and choose WHO are the ‘bad scientists'”

    LOL! And this coming from a man who believes in the talking snake theory of creation????

    Yeah, we take YOUR word on what’s scientific and not! LOL! What an utterly stupid thing to say!

  44. “You wouldn’t know bad science if it bit you”

    I almost spat my coffee over my keyboard there! :D This from someone who, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, believes the world was made in 6 days.

    Is it true that some scientists are working on a cure for blackness too? That’ll be great, eh? Obviously, anything that’s Not Like Us must be wrong, mustn’t it? I mean, every day I look at men/people with blue eyes/people with blonde hair/people with a different colour skin from me and I pray that all those clever scientists will find a cure for them. I mean they like to think they’re equal to me, but clearly they’re not. You see, I know the mind of god – because it perfectly coincides with what I think. Some people say i should just get on with my life and leave all those people alone, but they just keep niggling at me and I can’t think why. I mean it’s NOTHING to do with my own personal insecurity or dissatisfaction with my life, is it?

    Now I must go – I need to work on my cure for tallness. I mean, how DARE they?!

    *sarcasm button off*

  45. LOL @ Iris…. classic.

    :)

  46. Tom Hennessy wrote
    ” Those ‘doctors’ who removed homosexuality from the DSM are “bad scientists” too .. ?”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Tom . . . homosexuality was removed from all major world classification systems of mental illness namely ICD-10 and DSM.

    Tom . . . homosexuality was removed from ICD-10 and DSM becasue scientists, clinicians, psychiatrists, psychologists and academics could not find evidence that homosexuality was in itself psychopathological

    Tom . . . homosexualtiy was removed from ICD-10 and DSM becasue no clinical evidence was found to substantiate or perpetuate the cliam that homosexuality was an illness.

  47. Tom Hennessy 6 Jul 2010, 12:28pm

    Quote: homosexualtiy was removed from ICD-10 and DSM becasue no clinical evidence was found to substantiate or perpetuate the cliam that homosexuality was an illness

    Answer: BAD science is what got homosexuality removed. Scientists .. bad scientists ..
    Good for the goooose .. good for the gander ..

  48. “BAD science is what got homosexuality removed.”

    LOL! Oh, mercy, this guy is just a peach.

    So, please, enlighten me, is the “proof” of a 6,000 year old earth with the talking snake and the dino-garden “good” science or “bad” science?

    Notice how he won’t address that issue.

  49. “Answer: BAD science is what got homosexuality removed”

    Thanks, Tom. A new use of the word ‘bad’ of which I wasn’t aware. I’ll add that to my dictionary of hate and ignorance:

    “Bad – an adjective describing anything that I don’t like or disagree with.”

    Perfect! Do you know if god him/herself appeared and told you you were wrong, you wouldn’t believe it, would you? You’d say it was a trick, he was really the devil, he was an illusion manufactured by women/black people/the disabled/whoever the curent hate target might be at that time.

    You need to think about why you’re so obsessed with hate. I’ll give you a clue – it’s not to do with us, it’s to do with YOU.

  50. “Answer: BAD science is what got homosexuality removed. Scientists .. bad scientists ..
    Good for the goooose .. good for the gander”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    So Tom . . . what is good science in your view

  51. Tom Hennessy 6 Jul 2010, 2:19pm

    Quote: So Tom . . . what is good science in your view

    Answer: Whatever works. Pretty simple. The ONLY treatment at one time that WORKED was bloodletting / blood donation / venesection. Bloodletting went by the way with the advent of hormone replacement therapy .
    “Iron-overload leads to excessive iron deposition in a wide variety of tissues, including the heart and endocrine tissues.”

  52. Run Tom, the homosexuals are coming to get you :D

  53. There’s something very Mengele about you Tom. There is nothing to be cured here. Being gay is not an illness or dysfunctional. Oh, and another thing, why are you hanging around the gay pages? Something you’re not telling us?

  54. “Whatever works. Pretty simple.”

    Er, what ever works? 8 years in college studying science and engineering and I could have reduced all my exam answers to “what works”.

    So, enlighten me, how do fossils “work”?

  55. Deeside Will 6 Jul 2010, 3:18pm

    Tom Hennessy, homosexuality was removed from ICD-10 and DSM because there was no scientific justification for its inclusion in the first place. It had originally found its way onto the DSM as the result of a vote, so it was thoroughly appropriate that it found its way off again by the same means.

  56. “Tom Hennessy, homosexuality was removed from ICD-10 and DSM because there was no scientific justification for its inclusion in the first place.”

    Yeah, but that was “bad” science apparently. Tom is the ultimate authority on what is “bad” science and what is “good” science, based on the what “works” criteria – is a new form of scientific validation, I’m guessing. Well, from what I can tell, his education was “bad” and his brain doesn’t “work” too good because of it :)

    I can’t wait to hear what his opinion is on fossils!

  57. Tom Hennessy 6 Jul 2010, 4:13pm

    “We studied the effect of iron depletion on reproductive function in a 37-yr-old man with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism due to idiopathic hemochromatosis.”
    “Phlebotomy alone for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism”
    “Sixteen months after institution of aggressive phlebotomy
    therapy, serum LH, FSH, and testosterone were normal”

  58. Yeah, Tom we can all appreciate the wonders of your astounding abilities to cut and paste some lame theories about Hypogonadism.

    However, if you could actually read, you’d see that Hypogonadism has absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality. So why do you keep prattling on about it?

    In fact, if you had any idea what you are talking about, you’d see that the only correlation between hormones and sexuality in gay men is that studies done show the levels of plasma testosterone of young male homosexuals (Kinsey group VI) were found to be significantly higher (p < .01 ) than those of 20 strictly heterosexual men matched for average age. [Plasma Testosterone Levels in Heterosexual and Homosexual Men H. KEITH H. BRODIE M.D.1, NANETTE GARTRELL 2, CHARLES DOERING PH.D.3, , and THOMAS RHUE PH.D.4]

    So, hows about giving the cut and paste a rest, at least until you can tell the difference between "god" science and "bad" science, there's a good chap. You're making a fool out of yourself.

  59. Poor Tom. Flogging a dead horse is the phrase that comes to mind with respect to his trying to prove his theories about homosexuality. But what I find really sad is that even if he were to accept he’s wrong there, he’ll just move on to another theory about what causes gayness. Yet all the time he’s missing the point:

    Being LGBT isn’t a disease so doesn’t need curing.

    And your Mengele observation was scarily spot on, Louise. No-one’s forgotten your ‘TWISTED’ outburst earlier on, Tom, nor your poorly concealed rage and hatred. Strangely reminiscent of other visitors here, like DS and Monkeychops and Tiggy and so many other people.

  60. Tom Hennessy 6 Jul 2010, 5:57pm

    if you had any idea what you are talking about, you’d see that Quote: the only correlation between hormones and sexuality in gay men is that studies done show the levels of plasma testosterone of young male homosexuals (Kinsey group VI) were found to be significantly higher (p < .01 ) than those of 20 strictly heterosexual men matched for average age.

    Answer: Give me a link . I have ALREADY posted the study of HIGHER estradiol levels in homosexuals and so this study YOU 'speak to' should be easy to find. I found this one. WHERE is this study showing massive testosterone in a homosexual.

    20.

    http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/829

    "It was concluded that the elevated plasma estradiol concentrations of the homosexual group are a biological feature of this group and may be associated with the homosexual behavior."

  61. And that study goes on to say: “Plasma testosterone determination and semen analysis did not reveal any significant difference between the homosexual and the two control groups.”

    Funny that as, as far as I could ascertain in your rants, you’d previously been suggesting that gay men had low levels of testosterone.

    You are a funny little thing, aren’t you? You don’t seem to get that no-one cares about some spurious cause of gayness because gayness is not a disease – any more than being male. You see, I’ve identified being male as an abnormality because men much lower levels of oestrogen than me. I can cure them, I hope. Nevermind – I’ll think of a cure after I’ve finished with the tall people.

    May I hazard a guess that you’re religious? Or have you been having doubts about your OWN sexuality? Er.. or both?

  62. Give you a link? I gave you the study. Look it up. I took the time to go to university, so should you.

    “Funny that as, as far as I could ascertain in your rants, you’d previously been suggesting that gay men had low levels of testosterone.”

    LOL! Iris, that’s exactly what I was thinking!! The fool has actually dismissed his own Hypogonadism theory. Of course, Hypogonadism is a syndrome caused by a decline in gonadal production of testosterone in males that occurs with aging, absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation, or “turning” gay. Funny that.

    And I have read Tom’s links, and evaluated the data (I can do that easily, because I actually AM a scientist, Tom). Guess what? They say NOTHING about homosexuality. Well of course they don’t!!! He’s so uneducated that he can’t tell the difference between sexual orientation and sex steroids, which are actually a form of estrogen receptors… Absolutely noting to do with sexual orientation! How embarrassing to show that level of ineptitude in public.

    Of course all scientific studies (i.e. not produced by NARTH which is as scientific as palm reading) show a prenatal biological and genetic disposition to homosexuality.

    Why are all these religions types so blood stupid? Seriously, its disturbing the level of ignorance they hold in scientific understanding.

    But there’s been many studies into this, and the findings are all the same. The more religious a person becomes, the less likely they are to be intelligent.

    See: Nyborg, Helmuth (2008-03). “The intelligence–religiosity nexus: A representative study of white adolescent Americans”.

    And: Lynn, Richard; John Harvey and Helmuth Nyborg. “Average intelligence predicts atheism rates across 137 nations”

  63. Just for giggles, and to pass away a few minutes, I’d like to present the glaring stupidity of Tom Hennessy, and his lack of understanding of the very articles he presented as “poof”… but doesn’t seem to understand what its proof of exactly.

    1. The study actually says that plasma estradiol concentrations in gay men *MIGHT* be natural to homosexual men. It DOES NOT state that this is because or a causality for homosexuality, as Tom states. In fact the study says “No significant correlation between plasma estradiol and Kinsey rating was observed.”

    2. Later studies, have found correlations between physiology of people and their sexuality. Not surprising. Tom confuses physiology differences with causality, which just underlines his ignorance in the area.

    3. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: The study about plasma testosterone and estradiol in gay men, was written in 1973!!! A 40 year old study, that has since been supplanted. In 1984, a neurobiologist at Columbia University, Heino Meyer-Bahlburg, examined twenty-seven of these studies and their results. Twenty of the studies showed that there were no significant differences between the levels of either estrogen and testosterone in homosexual and heterosexual men. The other seven studies were considered to be either flawed or invalid. But, Meyer-Bahlburg’s analysis (1997) seemed to cast in doubt any theory that attributed homosexual attraction primarily to adult hormone levels.

    We can safely bury Tom as a science “expert”… either in “good” science or “bad” science”! LOL!

  64. “Tom confuses physiology differences with causality, which just underlines his ignorance in the area. ”

    Precisely! I don’t think he really understands casuality at all. I feel we’ve been going round in circles trying to explain it to him. Poor old Tom.

    “We can safely bury Tom as a science “expert”… either in “good” science or “bad” science”! LOL!”

    *giggling*

    (Sorry, Tom. No offence but I couldn’t help but laugh at that comment – accurate aswell as witty :) )

  65. Dr Robin Guthrie 6 Jul 2010, 10:07pm

    All are quite irrelevant.

    As a Doctor with throat cancer, you get to a state whereby you really do not care one iota of any studies whatsoever.

    Despite being in the biz, science, you soon realize that none of them have any idea whatsoever other than personal career development.

    My last, so called expert warbled on about multi various radiological and chemical regimes etc etc.

    Zilch has worked and only made things worse.

    As to studies on Homosexuality.

    I can only say one thing.

    I was born, after a 16 hour labour by my mother.
    She bore me and suffered that pain.

    My mother and father nurtured me through my entire
    childhood.

    I grew up trying to make my way in the world as we all do.

    I succeeded in going through University, coming out at the other
    end a very clever man.

    That was 26 years ago, and I am still a very clever man, however now one about to die.

    My Childhood / Teens / 20’s Etc was wrought with this bloody argument about sexuality.

    Just drop it people and live the life you have.

    Stop analyzing it and get on with it before it stops.

  66. Has poor Tom has stopped his sillyness? Sure seems like it. Well done to Will on showing his postings to be lame ducks!!!!!!

  67. Tom Hennessy 7 Jul 2010, 2:31pm

    Quote: As a Doctor with throat cancer

    Answer: “Iron Chelators Against Cancer” “Exceeds most effective anti-cancer drugs currently in use”

  68. “Iron Chelators Against Cancer”

    Hmmm. I think we’ll leave medical science to Dr Guthrie, and real scientists, shall we Tom? Given you can’t seem to read an outdated scientific study, and have subcategorised science into “bad” science and “good” science, you don’t really inspire any confidence.

    So, we’ll pass on your dazzling scientific prowess, Tom, if you don’t mind….

  69. Lets Pause for a moment folks . . .

    See how these “Fundamentalist Christian Crackpots” FCCs – hijack these threads

    Lets get back to the theme of this thread – “The BMAs vote against reparative therapies” . . . this has obviously rattled their cages of these FCCs.

  70. Tom Hennessy 8 Jul 2010, 2:40am

    Quote: So, we’ll pass on your dazzling scientific prowess, Tom, if you don’t mind
    Answer: Jeez .. doc .. and I doo use the term loosely .. you think I personally me did those studies of iron in cancer .. ?
    What I think a smart guy like you should do is speak to the people in Oz who did the study and tell THEM they are wasting their time and energy because a cancer ridden homosexual ‘doctor’ tells them toooo ..
    Ok .. ?

    Gooood ..

  71. So a result from some scientists in Oz, that have to come up with a result of positive ‘probability’ to keep their funding and to get their name into medical journals around the world, you see as accurate science Tom? Too many medical studies already have the answer before they begin. I’ve yet to see one that isn’t flawed. It’s not about looking for answers, it’s about the best way to cheat their way to the answer they’ve been funded to look for. We see a new one on a different subject almost every day in the news. When you look at the small amount of subjects they use to study and the forced, one sided attitude they use to get funding for yet another farcical study, they all fall apart very easily.

    For example, if I studied you as an example of a human being, I’d conclude at the end of my study that you are an imbecile, therefore all humans are ‘likely’ to be imbeciles. I could cash in, get funding for another few years, get my name and work in a medical journal and in all the newspapers worldwide in a small column next to the daily horoscope.

    If you look at medical studies, words like ‘probably’ ‘perhaps’ ‘could’ ‘maybe’ ‘likely’ are used in abundance. Also most of them involve only a handful of subjects, who they then use to measure and represent an entire world.

    You really are pathetic Tom. Go and play now :D

  72. “Ok .. ?”

    Eh, no. Its not. You were proven to be not only wrong with the plasma testosterone and estradiol study, but you were proven to be a complete idiot in your understanding of it, so funny that you never went back to that study isn’t it?

    Never bothered to defend your bigoted remarks?

    Never tried even once to defend you assessment of the paper?

    Best ignored now that we all know you’re a fraud and a bigot, isn’t it Tom? Afraid we’ll outsmart you again?

    By your amazing grammatical prowess I suspect you had some difficulty reading it in the first place.

    So, yes, I am smart. And most definitely, you are not, Tommy. With all due respect to you Mr. Hennessey, you are a blustering moron who is a bigot, and one who should be embarrassed to show himself here again, let along try some silly insults after such a tragic and public display of of your idiocy.

    Louise sums it up beautifully: You really are pathetic Tom – never a truer word spoke

  73. Yep, you said it all, Will. Tom was proven wrong yet not man enough to admit it.

  74. *** The BMA have declared that “Gay Cures are harmfull and bad practice”

    *** This is a victory for LGBT emancipation, liberty and freedom . . .

    O DEAR . . . TOM still seems be having a long drawn out and convoluted . . . Tantrum

  75. 21stCenturySpirituality 14 Jul 2010, 7:51pm

    @ Riondo…”Witchcraft always attracts quacks and tricksters.”

    Is that meant as a slight against Pagans?

  76. Tom Hennessy 31 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

    Quote: With all due respect to you Mr. Hennessey, you are a blustering moron who is a bigot, and one who should be embarrassed to show himself here again, let along try some silly insults after such a tragic and public display of of your idiocy.
    Answer: Bigot ? You have an illness. This thread is about ILLNESS. You don’t seem to think you have an illness ? You are WRONG. The ONLY difference between YOU and someone with cystic fibrosis is the NAME. Those with homosexualit don’t fall down because their lungs are full of mucus. Those with homosexuality have a MENTAL illness which just so happens to ACCOMPANY homosexuality. You THINK differently. The illness of homosexuality AFFECTS THE MIND. THAT is WHY you ‘feel’ good when you dance around half-naked and dress pretty weird in your ‘parades’. It is because there is some type of screw loose up there .. and you cannot seem to admit it. Could it be because you are mentally ill ? Nah.

These comments are un-moderated and do not necessarily represent the views of PinkNews. If you believe that a comment is inappropriate or libellous, please contact us.

Top commenters this week

Latest stories

See all