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Elton John plays controversial Israel show

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  1. Of all people to have a social conscience you would think it would be us gays. But no. I am appalled that Israel is becoming the new dance circuit mecca for gay men, with friends I know planning to head to Tel Aviv for their parties this summer. The truth is that gay men are becoming ever more selfish and self-obsessed and will go anywhere and do anything for a good time, no matter what. There was a time, when we still had rights to fight for, that we had a real sense of community and a conscience. Now those rights are won we don’t seem to give a flying f*ck for anything or anyone anymore. No wonder the gay scene is now dominated by drug-fuelled sex clubs, saunas, playpits and dungeons these days and gay men are chained to the internet. It’s all about instant and empty gratification and degradation; goodbye to meaningful friendships and experiences or anything that really matters…

  2. “goodbye to meaningful friendships and experiences or anything that really matters… ”

    I think you’re generalising there…. not every gay man is in a sauna every weekend, or living for “drug fuelled parties”…. What you see in gay bars and saunas is NOT the entire gay population… the math itself proves that. Anecdotally (or even not if you look at census figures), I would say more gay men are in meaningful relationships than there were 30 years ago, where more gay men were married with kids and cruised toilets for the only gratification they could get.

    What you just said is an opinion, which you’re entitled to, but opinions are not always fact.

  3. Elton John wouldn’t dreamm of cancelling a gig EVER.

    After all hewould have been out of pocket by cancelling this gig.

    And with Elton it’s ALL about the money.

    And as evidenced by his recent act of prostitution by playing at the wedding of vicious homophobe Rush Limbnaugh for $1,000,000 it is clear that money is more important to Reg Dwight than morals or conscience.

    Through his own prostitution at Limbaugh’s wedding Elton John has completely delegitmised himself as an Aids or a gay activist.

    He is an embarrassment.

  4. “And as evidenced by his recent act of prostitution by playing at the wedding of vicious homophobe Rush Limbnaugh for $1,000,000 it is clear that money is more important to Reg Dwight than morals or conscience.”

    I was thinking the same thing…. and then he comes out with this ridiculous statement about him “building bridges”. Sure, for a sizeable fee. The man is a sell out.

  5. “The man is a sell out.”

    No, he’s a performer. And a really good one at that. I was at the show in Tel Aviv and it was great.

  6. I think that should have read:-

    “I don’t cherry-pick where my money comes from!”

    I think his conscience walked out on him a long time ago.

  7. “No, he’s a performer.”

    Yeah, but he calls himself a gay rights and AIDS activist… gay activists do concerts for screaming homophobes and racist scum like Rush Limbnaugh, a complete facist nut who once said “When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult, it’s an invitation”. This man has all the human compassion of a virus, and Elton John thinks its okay to play at his wedding? And doing it for money is akin to prostitution.

    The fact his concert is good is completely irrelevant, but we’re all delighted you enjoyed it.

  8. “No, he’s a performer. And a really good one at that.”

    Fair enough.

    But he should shut his whore mouth about Aids and gay rights then.

    He is not to be taken seriously when he speaks about Aids or gay rights when he has no problem earning money from the proceeds of vicious homophobia.

  9. Well done Elton! As a gay man, even as a gay gentile, I can tell you that Israel is about the only place in the entire Middle East in which I’d ever feel comfortable. I hate the fact that when you put a Jew on the receiving end of hate, all of a sudden we think the homophobes are the victims!

  10. sh1t man, you lot have got serious issues. wtf has it got to do with any of you if he wants to sing a concert in israel? cant stand the man, and think his music is sh1te but if he wants to earn a million quid from singing then thats his right. i mean do you lot think youve got some moral high ground?

    and martinM maybe you should shut your fukcin mouth instead of tellin everyone else to, you go on like some rabid rat.

    and wtf is comment #1 going on about. “The truth is that gay men are becoming ever more selfish and self-obsessed” – truth to who? you?

    all of yous need to go out, get p1ssed, have a shag and chill out. im off to the gay bar then off to a “drug-fuelled sex club, sauna, playpit and dungeon”, then im gonna “chain myself to the internet.”

    and i cant stand homophobic palestinian muslims anyway, so good on him.

  11. There are few people in the UK who have given more money, and (obviously less so) time, to HIV and AIDS than has E.J. For Christ’s sake, leave the guy alone. Please, guys (I know, I know…) be positive – think what he has done, not the negative. And if you have a view, make it with some degree of balance. Maybe he should not have done TLV (I think he should), maybe not Limbnaugh (I think he should not), but it is possible to express a view without calling the guy a whore, sell out etc.

    I read this site from time to time, and am often, too often, appalled at the nasty, vicious, (sorry but…) queeny-tongued comments. I think some of us stalk this site waiting to pounce with a negative, often nasty, response. Why? It is so tedious.

    It is so easy to be tough in these anonymised comments. It is, however, not clever.

  12. Jay, forgive us if we don’t take the onion of a intellectually retarded moron like you as anything near serious. Will and MartinM make some really good points, if you were smart enough to read. When you get a dictionary and learn to speak English above that of a dyslexic 4 year old (the word is “you” [pl], not “yous”, for one) you can have all the right to lambaste another opinion. If all of us “need to go out”, then you need to stay in an read a book or something, your education level is appallingly embarrassing. How do manage to even sign on at the dole office is amazing, do you just spit on the page?

  13. Newspaniard 21 Jun 2010, 2:35pm

    The recent press coverage of the event which occurred between Israel and the so called ‘relief aid’ ship to Gaza was extreme to the point of Anti Semitism (something which wouldn’t have been tolerated by most right-thinking nations a few years ago). I am aware that the main body of our press and particularly the (wonderful, oh so truthful), BBC is terrified of mentioning the Desert Death Cult for fear that someone might be offended. I find it amazing that a terrorist run country can be found the innocent party in this matter. The boat was sneaking into Gaza and could have been filled to the gills with arms, presumably topped with a packet of Elastoplast. In my view, the Israelis had every right to try and prevent arms reaching Gaza. So, to the Saudi funded professional ‘protesters’, I say Good for Elton, I don’t care how much money he’s making, his wealth is not going to support a bunch of terrorists.

  14. “think what he has done, not the negative”

    Sorry, this is about his actions, and they speak volumes. I have no time for two faced hypocrites. Elton should shut the hell up about his pedantic whining about his lack of gay rights, if Russ Limbnaugh is how low he has to stoop to get money.

    Elton once said about himself “I am the most well-known homosexual in the world”… which is a real pity for the rest of us if he is, given both he and Rush Limbaugh have expressed opposition to marriage equality. Some role model. Next we’ll have the Pope as a poster-boy for abortion clinics.

    So, Andy, “queeny-tongued comments” are nothing of the sort if they are factual, are they? And if you disagree with what someone says, then put some facts up, not go on a tirade about opinions you perceive as “nasty” or “vicious” by way of a counter argument… rather like our erudite Jay above.

  15. “The boat was sneaking into Gaza and could have been filled to the gills with arms, presumably topped with a packet of Elastoplast. In my view, the Israelis had every right to try and prevent arms reaching Gaza”

    So, shooting dead of 15 innocent people on an aid ship is okay with you? And I suppose the illegal blockade of another country, which they occupy when ever it suits them, that’s okay too, given the UN Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs still consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip? No?

    Perhaps get your facts right before coming in here and embarrassing yourself, your lack of knowledge is offensive.

  16. Will, maybe you missed my point. I have not in fact disagreed with what anyone said – I have taken issue with the way they said it.

    By all means people are free to disagree with what E.J. did, but the disagreement can be proportionate and properly put. To disregard all the good the guy did and dismiss him as a whore etc, just isn’t the right way to do it. The point can be perfectly well made without that.

    So, in answer to your question, yes a queeny tongued comment is still a queeny tongued comment, even if it reflects a fact. To some of us it actually detracts from the point being made.

    And it’s cheap and easy too.

  17. Newspaniard 21 Jun 2010, 3:05pm

    @dean. Fifteen dead now is it? It will be 50 by this time nex week. ‘Unarmed’ is a relative term. Hamas is a universally declared terrorist organization. Before I become too embarrassed by your comments, I would ask you to check the facts and not those put out by a self censoring press.

  18. oi you’re not dean

  19. vulpus_rex 21 Jun 2010, 3:20pm

    I can’t stand Elton John but good for him for sticking two fingers up to the international bullying Israel has to endure.

    For me it’s really simple, would I rather live in a country that protects the rights of the LGBT community or would I rather live in one of the countries that think supergluing my backside shut is acceptable or perhaps gouging out the labia of twelve year old girls in the name of their religion.

    Not hard really is it.

  20. “@dean. Fifteen dead now is it? It will be 50 by this time nex week. ‘Unarmed’ is a relative term. Hamas is a universally declared terrorist organization. Before I become too embarrassed by your comments, I would ask you to check the facts and not those put out by a self censoring press.”

    Can’t you read newspapers? Is your head that far in the sand you don’t get a decent TV signal?

    CNN report at least 9 dead: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html

    Aljazeera report 19 dead: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html

    BBC report 9 dead: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

    INewsCatcher report 15 dead: http://www.inewscatcher.com/2010/05/gaza-flotilla-un-security-council-to-hold-emergency-session-over-gaza-flotilla-deaths.html

    Take your pick.

    The exact number is not an issue, the fact they are dead is, but nice try to deflect that fact with some “if the number is wrong then it all didn’t happen” nonsense.

    I’d ask you to check YOUR fact, you seem to be some extremist nut who can’t move outside some “they’re all terrorists” dogma nonsense. Hamas didn’t organise the aid, you fool. Please, try keep up with the rest of us, otherwise you just come across as a complete paranoid idiot… oh, sorry, too late.

  21. “To disregard all the good the guy did and dismiss him as a whore etc, just isn’t the right way to do it.”

    By all means, enlighten me with the “good points”, your comment’s of anyone with an opinion being “queeny tongued comments” are becoming slightly repetitive, put some facts up. And no one called him a “whore”, it was stated in the context he was prostituting himself. And he was.

  22. Ersatz Dean, from what we read in a not (to put it mildly) very pro Israeli press, the convoy was not, or maybe not just, an aid convoy. Among the several hundred members of this Hamas backed charity organised flotilla were activists, some carrying weapons, determined to bring attention to their cause. If not so, it is not clear why they appear to have refused to accept the Israeli offer to divert the contents, have them checked and pass them through the land border. This would have achieved the object of providing aid, but would not, of course, have made the political point.

    It looks as if the Israelis cocked up badly, and will take heat as a result. But the blame for these sad deaths lies also with the organisers of the flotilla and the armed activists among the occupants who were determined to cause a fight and got more than they bargained on.

    By the way, “Perhaps get your facts right before coming in here and embarrassing yourself, your lack of knowledge is offensive.”

    It was 9, not 16 – and of course I know that does not make it right. But it leaves you with an omelette on your face!

  23. “…shooting dead of 15 innocent people on an aid ship…” – fact check anyone? Didn’t happen. What next? Claiming 20, 30, or perhaps that the Israelis sunk a ship or two?

  24. Will, easy good point…. “The Elton John AIDS Foundation (EJAF.org), established in 1992, is among the world’s leading AIDS advocacy and support organizations. He has raised more than $175 million for support and prevention programs in 55 countries ….”

    Come on, you can forgive the guy a lot, just for that alone! If you can’t, I can.

    Enough on its own. If you want more, Google it yourself.

  25. Fact One Newspaniard is that nine people were killed by the IDF Commandos. Original press reports were up to sixteen, Dean can therefore be forgiven for getting the number wrong.

    Fact also is that Hamas had nothing to do with the flotilla.

    Fact, the Turkish authorities thoroughly checked the boat for any sort of armaments, and undertook x-ray searches etc of the crew & passengers.

    Fact, the boat wasn’t sneaking into Gaza; everybody knew about it, including the Israeli’s, that was the point, publicity, and since when has Gaza been a country Newspaniard? It’s still technically occupied territory, ask the UN/Red Cross/Amnesty etc.

    Fact, the Israeli’s have yet to show the rest of us the weapons found. They can’t as there weren’t any. The metal poles for instance were the ships metal railings. Kitchen knives are exactly that.

    Fact, the BBC coverage on day one was entirely from the viewpoint of the Israeli’s, not really the fault of the BBC seeing as though the IDF confiscated all video equipment, film, memory cards etc & refused press, & medical access to the crew & members of the flotilla. Of the many hours of footage only one has survived and is now in the public domain. Makes interesting viewing.

    Come back when you’ve done your own homework Newspaniard!

  26. Fact, being gay in Israel is infinitely better than being gay anywhere else in the entire Middle East.

  27. Kevin, your facts:
    1 your numbers are right, but if “Dean” wants to criticise others for fact-check he really shuld have done one first.
    2 I think it is pretty much accepted at least in the press that the IHH is Hamas affiliated and funded – and denials are muted.
    3 The Turkish authorities have said that they did not thoroughly search the vessels, nor could they reasonably be expected to have done so.
    4 Truth is that this was a publicity stunt that went wrong, badly
    5 Of course Gaza is not a country. And the fact that it is not, and is part of Israel, means that it can’t be occupied by Israel itself!
    6 Pop over here, Kevin, with a ship rail (which is of course a metal pole) and we can ascertain if it can be used as a weapon! Didn’t you see the film footage – it looked as if they were clubbing seals.
    7 I did watch the immediate news reporting. I don’t recall for one moment that it was Israeli biased.

  28. Thanks for your response Andy, pleased you don’t fall into the trap of issuing insults to those you disagree with, unlike so many posters here.

    Quite agree it was a publicity stunt, that I think was the point, and I personally think that whatever the crew did was in self defence. They were the ones who were attacked first, quite possibly by commandos firing from above. They had a right to pick up poles and use them, although that wasn’t the brightest idea when considering how well armed the IDF are! All crew had been trained to react non-violently, whatever the provocation. All but a few did.

    The autopsies also make interesting reading, as those killed do have bullet wounds inconsistent with the self defensive action that the IDF are claiming.

    As for the occupation, as far as I’m aware, Gaza has never been part of Israel, not now or in antiquity. As I said before, it’s near universally considered occupied despite the withdrawal of the Israel’s a few years ago.

  29. ‘being gay in Israel is infinitely better than being gay anywhere else in the entire Middle East’

    No doubt true, if you’re refereing simply to the ‘lifestyle’, but there’s far more to life than ‘being gay’! There are gay Palestinians as well, they have to live with both the homophobia of Islam and suffer from occupation, blockade & bombardment!

  30. I think, the position is this. Gaza was part of the Greater Ottoman Empire, and then became part of the British Mandate after WW1. Egypt occupied it (non confrontationally I think) from 1948 when the state of Israel became independant but it was not Egyptian territory. In 1967 during the 6 day war, Israel captured the land; which from my scant knowledge of international law, makes it Israeli territory, technically (if you capture land during a conflict which was “started” by others, you are by international law, entitled to claim ownership, though I believe many international lawyers consider this outdated now as a concept), though I don’t think Israel lays claim to “ownership” and has for sure acknowledged that in the event of a successful two state solution to the dispute with the Palestinian people, Gaza is for the Palestinians.

    No idea about the autopsies – I have not read them. I have only seen one film, which shows the “clubbing” way before any shots were fired. But we all know the first casualty of war is the truth! It is not IdF style to come out shooting; so my guess for what it is worth is that it really was a mix of self defence and over-reaction panic. Hopefully we will find out.

  31. “Fact, being gay in Israel is infinitely better than being gay anywhere else in the entire Middle East. ”

    And how does that justify murdering 9 civilians in international waters?

    And how does it justify collectively punishing an entire country by jailing them all without trial?

    Just like any other country Israel should be judged by its actions. Its actions against the aid ships was murderous and disproportionate in the extreme. And its collective punishment of every single Palestinian is a crime.

    As for Elton ‘Whore’ John. Yes he has raised a lot of money for Aids research.

    But how much of this money has he earned from the proceeds of malicious homophobia?

    Thanks for your efforts in the past Elton. However seeing as he has no qualms about where his money comes from it is only fair and accurate to call him a whore.

    Has he donated his $1,000,000 fee from Rush Limbaugh’s wedding to a gay charity.

    Until he does that he needs to be ignored. Through his own incredible greed he has delegitimised all the good work he has done in the past.

  32. Newspaniard 21 Jun 2010, 5:02pm

    @MartinM. You sound very bitter there. On your way to your first stroke?

  33. We will never know the truth about what happened on the aid convoy as Israel is refusing to allow an independent inquiry. Hilariously Israel will investigate the raid itself.

    It is quite clear that a person who is accused of a serious crime should not investigate and judge the outcome.

    That is what Israel intends to do with the murderous raid on international waters.

    And in the meantime they have alienated Turkey – one of their most important strategic allies and pretty much the only muslim country in the world who gets along with them.

    in typical Israeli fashion I am sure they will blame everyone else as usual and refuse to take any responsibility for their own actions, and if the heat gets too much then they’ll revert to the lazy accusation of anti-semitism.

    By the way we all know don’t we that Elton John played a series of concerts in South Africa during the height of the Apartheid regime in South Africa don’t we.

    Elton John has a history of prostitution

    http://www.bt.com.bn/life/2008/01/13/recalling_sin_of_shows_in_apartheid_s_africa

  34. No Newspaniard, MartinM makes hyperbolic comments frequently, with no self restraint, and they always bring a smile to my face, with their predictability. Sometimes I even find myself agreeing with him, but (see the thread above) never the way he says it.

  35. Philippe Landman 21 Jun 2010, 5:11pm

    To quote the late Frank Zappa speaking on morality in popculture:
    “We’re only in it for the money”

  36. MartinM, the enquiry is not by a third party agency, but it does have two highly respected third party member. They don’t vote but sure would kick up a stink if there is an attempt to divert justice Most countries (I would say all, but someone will dig out an example of where I am wrong) do not allow third parties to carry out their investigations do they?

    MartinM – have to smile – you talk about having an enquiry, being “accused” then, describe it as a “murderous raid”. So, no prejudging then?

  37. “Fact, being gay in Israel is infinitely better than being gay anywhere else in the entire Middle East.”

    So, therefore you ignore the press reports to staunchly be pro-Israel? Hmm. Very enlightened view.

  38. “Most countries (I would say all, but someone will dig out an example of where I am wrong) do not allow third parties to carry out their investigations do they?”

    The European Court of Human Rights, The International Court of Justice, and the UN all carry out legally binding investigations on behalf of nations that have violated human rights. An independent inquiry is the recommend course of action, as requested by the UN Security Council, applicable I think when one nation board an unarmed ship and shoots 1/9/15/100+ people…. the numbers are irrelevant, the violation of rights isn’t.

    And to those who think backing Israel with unwavering support simply because it allows a few gays bars, overlooking its track record of human rights abuses globally, is somewhat polarised views and very uninformed.

    Israel is a religious state, after all. According to a 2009 report from the U.S. State Department Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, Israel falls short of being a tolerant or pluralistic society. According to the report, Israel discriminates against Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Reform Jews, Christians, women and Bedouins. Israel only recognises and protects Jewish holy sites, ignoring and neglecting all Christian and Muslim sites. All 137 official holy sites are Jewish.

    In 2004-2005 alone the U.N. General Assembly passed nineteen resolutions concerning Israel. In September 2009 the UN found in the Goldstone report that the blockade of Gaza amounted to collective punishment and was thus illegal.

    And even on the purported gay rights, they still have a long way to go, like on February 20, 2008, Shlomo Benizri, a Knesset member from the religious Shas party, a member of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s ruling coalition, blamed earthquakes that had recently struck the Middle East on the activities of homosexuals.

    Israel is not the idealised and innocent country that some here claim it to be, it has a long way to go, and blindly supporting this kind of human rights abuse behaviour unchallenged is ignorance. If you demand a balanced argument, then at least have the facts, and give an unbiased view, not a fanatical tirade.

  39. Newspaniard 21 Jun 2010, 9:38pm

    @Will, thanks for your sober input. If you look closely above, I think you will find that the ‘fanatical tirades’ you are referring to come from the anti-Israeli camp.

  40. #12 – how pedanticly embarrassing your comments are. yawn. the anti-semite martinM doesnt make any valid points to me, and neither does the anti-semite Will. martinM thinks he’s gonna save the world and bring LGB liberation to us all, when in fact like someone else has said he’ll have a stroke first if he carries on with the justice for all campaign. and Will thinks he knows it all about the israeli palestinian conflict when he knows nish other than the cut and paste internet searches he’s done.

    my point is, wtf has it got to do with you or anyone else if elton plays a gig in israel? dont buy his records, im sure he’ll cope. him playing there is not the end of the world, and will not bring about trouble for anyone. There are no victims in what he’s done, so why judge him like most of you are doing on here. i dont even like the guy. him doing this gig means nothing, to anyone except the people who watched him, and elton who earned loads of money from it – good for him. he’ll probs go and play a gig in saudi next week. so what. the UK sells weapons to saudi, does that mean you go and protest the government to stop them selling arms to the most homophobic regime in the world. No it doesn’t. youre just another hypocrite with a knee jerk reaction for some cr4p news story that will have dissapeared from pink news in two days.

    and i take it you live in a country that doesnt have a military, that doesnt spend money on bombs and killing people to defend itself. no you just pretend to be a pacifist whilst hiding behind a government that spends 40 billion on its military, and earns tax from companies that sells bombs, planes etc to the rest of the world.

    I think vulpus has a good point – id rather someone go and play piano and sing some songs in israel where at least in parts they are a progressive society, (no ones saying they are perfect Will – guess what, no where is) than stick up for a load of homophobic muslims in palestine who think its a good idea to kill people just like YOU.

    i still think my advice is the best. anyone reacting strongly to this story needs to get out more. its just a stupid popstar singing some songs. get over it.

  41. Will I took the time to look back through all the posts relevant toIsrael. Only three could be remotely described as a fanatocal tirade – yours and MartinM’s. Do what I did and you will see that I am right.

    I am an Israel supporter generally. I make no apology for that nor hide it. That does not mean I am entirely uncritical. I hope that is clear from my posts. I hope also that I have a rational and thought through balanced view. it clearly differs from yours, but Israel is a topic which produces polarised views, often born out of ignorance and lack of knowledge. I do not refer to you here, but I really should be grateful if you would not dismiss my knowledge and views in the way you do, just because they are not yours. It is plain rude.

    Yes, you can produce facts and statistiics, UN resolutions by the score (by the way, you know the Arab influence on the UN, of course), and in turn I can do the same and produce a mirror image. But there is just no point. I should have learned over the years not to engage with people on the subject; since just as you will never convince me that Israel is all bad, I will never convince you that it is all good. The truth is that it is both.

    As to Israel’s position in the area, let me trot out the old cliche. What would happen if the countries surrounding put down their weapons? Israel would have nothing to defend, and no need to attack, since it has no aspirations to destroy its neighbours; but if Israel put down its weapons, it would be destroyed (according to its neighbours).

    I am not going to engage with you further; as I say it will achieve nothing, except increase my blood pressure. I know you feel you are right. Who knows, you may be? But I do not think so, even though I will never convince you of it. If you respond to me and I do not do the same to you, it is neither discourtesy not cowardice, but rather realism.

    I hope that this will not bee seen as a fanatacial tirade; it was not intended to be, but others can judge that.

  42. “Of all the people to have a social conscience you would think it would be us gays.” Which is why on the whole, I think more gay people support Israel than hate it.

    Gay people are used to being unfairly demonized and hated by screwed up religions.

    Long live Israel!

  43. Jess Conrad 22 Jun 2010, 7:38am

    Elton John is his own Person and will not be pushed around by publicc opinion and that’s how I feel too.

  44. “since just as you will never convince me that Israel is all bad, I will never convince you that it is all good.”

    And here lies how you are trapped in a one sided view. I never said Israel was bad or good, simply that the entire country must be evaluated on metric and facts, not in a “I believe” nonsense. I deal in facts, not “belief”. I am neither a supporter or detractor of Isearl, or any other country for that matter, simply one who informed oneself on the situation, and who is a supporter of human rights.

    What I have tried to show you is that Israel, like other countries to varying degrees I’m sure, is an abuser of human rights. Israel has a appalling track record. That is fact. Nothing more. And when you “support” a country in such fashion as you do, you condone their actions, and give their actions credence – ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ and all that.

    You speak of “realism”. But your posts in the first person “belief” fashion do not indicate realism… belief structures tend not to be too well endowed on the facts side, as a study on any religion would show you.

    Its you who needs to step back, and make a balanced view. I’ve already done that. I’m sorry you can’t seem to see that, but its not really my problem. I deal in empiricism and facts, something your postings seem thin on the ground, alas.

  45. “and Will thinks he knows it all about the israeli palestinian conflict when he knows nish other than the cut and paste internet searches he’s done.”

    Yeah, and your English prowess doesn’t even cover the use of a spell checker, so pardon me if I don’t take your grammatically brilliant lunatic rants as anything serious. You need to chill, you’ll burst a blood vessel. Read a book or two while you’re at it.

  46. Will your rude responses are damaging your arguments!

    You want facts; You didnt read, or have ignored my posts, and for sure I am not going to repeat them. I agree that Israel falls short of a perfect human rights record, but it is a damn sight better than Iran, Syria, and many of its other neighbours. That does not make it right, I agree (if I may be presumptuous) since it is the only civilised democracy in the area.

    But do you not see, and understand, that the place is at war. The Palestinians lob bombs at them, trying to get as close as they can to the conurbations (Tel Aviv is their ultimate goal – think of the human life loss if they manage that), Hamas has as its policy, the very destruction of the State, Iran has a ruler who has constantly boasted that he wants to blow it off the face of the earth (and may soon have the weaponry to do just that), Hezbolla has said similar things, and frequently bombs northern Israel. I have personally seen a young Canadian girl blown to pieces while taking the sun on the beach in tel Aviv; I have been in a cafe which two hours after I left was blown up, killing and injuring, there are near daily attempts by suicide bombers to get into Israel to sit on a bus and blow its passengers to bits (thankfully these are now being thwarted but ……)

    So, it is not easy to be whiter than white. Maybe their standards fall short – I think sometimes they do, sometimes they just get it wrong. But for goodness’ sake, you can’t view their actions out of context – that just is not fair, and for sure itis not balanced.

    On a personal note, I do resent you saying that I do not have a balanced view, or for expressing a personal one. A personal view can (and in my case is) based on facts, as I read and have experienced them. I dont see what is wrong with that. As to balanced, you only have to read what I say, and the way that I say it, to see you have been harsh there.

    No more replies from me here. I have said all I have to say on this subject. If you reply I will not respond. No offence is meant.

  47. “The Palestinians lob bombs at them, trying to get as close as they can to the conurbations (Tel Aviv is their ultimate goal – think of the human life loss if they manage that)”

    And becuase another country behaves in an inhuman way, its not necessarily okay to respond in kind. If that were the case we should have burned the German nation into ashes after the war for the crimes against humanity committed by the few. But I think you have already acknowledged that in your post.

    It was not my intention to cause offence… well, except for my post to Jay, angry illiterate fools irritates me. I just have issues with polarised views, and perhaps I was unfair to judge you on that basis, so you have my apology if that was the case.

    Lets just agree to disagree… unless one of us happens to be the UN Special Envoy to the Middle East, this is just an exchange of views.

  48. No 40: Jay: you say: “the anti-semite martinM doesnt make any valid points to me, and neither does the anti-semite Will.”

    Please point out specifically my anti-semitic comments. Or are you reverting to the typical Israeli response of denouncing all criticism of the country (regardless of how justified) and automatically anti-semitic; merely to try to stifle very valid criticism of the country?

    Let’s not forget that the Palestinians are a semitic people also.

    Do you therefore think Israel is also anti-semitic thanks to their appalling decision to imprison an entire country without trial?

    Or are you applying double standards?

  49. And this story is about Elton John.

    Elton John toured apartheid era South Africa
    Elton John will play the wedding party of a vicious homophobe for $1,000,000
    Elton John plays in Israel despite the fact that they have imprisoned an entire country without trial.

  50. Stephen, don’t play into the old trick of labelling anyone who voices outrage at Israel’s terrorist activities as being an antisemite. That is how Israel has been able to act with seeming impunity until now – by branding as antisemetic anyone who disapproves of its activities. Thank God the world is now waking up and seeing what Israel – and its insane sponsoring by the United States – really stands for; a base in the Middle East armed to the gills with nuclear weapons, and prepared to nuke countries like Iran on the back of yet more lies that have seen hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Lebanese butchered. Antisemetic my ar*e. It is the truth!

  51. “Stephen, don’t play into the old trick of labelling anyone who voices outrage at Israel’s terrorist activities as being an antisemite.”

    Actually Patchy, I believe this is precisely what StephenC is trying to say in his post, he says “Or are you reverting to the typical Israeli response of denouncing all criticism of the country (regardless of how justified) and automatically anti-semitic; merely to try to stifle very valid criticism of the country?”

  52. Mihangel apYrs 22 Jun 2010, 12:37pm

    Reg Dwight didn’t come out until 1988: before that he was passing, at a time when out gay artistes could have had a majot beneficial influence.

    He was under no obligation to come out, but it makes me sick now that he markets himself as the best-known gay in the world AFTER all the hard work had been done by dogged “little” people

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