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Gay couple threatened and hit on London bus

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  1. Sister Mary Clarance 9 Jun 2010, 2:42pm

    And the driver did what?

  2. Number Two 9 Jun 2010, 2:57pm

    Maybe the attacker attends that delightful church we read about recently.

  3. This is sad, but if it was me, the bigot would need a dentist.

  4. So a serious physical assault takes place on the lower deck of a bus.

    And the assailant waltzes off the bus, unapprehended.

    What did the driver do?

    Did he notify the police. If not then why not?
    Did he do ANYTHING?

    Has the driver been suspended from his job pending an investigaation into whether he failed in his duty of care to his passengers?

    The assailant is the dregs of humanity and the scum of the earth. With scum like him on the loose it’s no wonder parties like the BNP are gaining support.

    I’m not saying that the BNP are right – anything but.

    They are extremist bigots. But they play up to people’s prejudices about violent, stupid non-white Britons.

    And then this violent moron confirms these prejudices.

  5. “With scum like him on the loose it’s no wonder parties like the BNP are gaining support.”
    Martin/Simon/Whatever – I rather think the BNP would be applauding this individual and offering him membership given their blatant homophobia. Making an issue of the attacker’s race get’s us nowhere – hate is not a consequence of colour.

  6. BrazilBoysBlog 9 Jun 2010, 3:20pm

    @4. Well, not sure that this is a race issue? The attacker (homophobe) happened to be black.. He could equally have been white, jewish, chinese, or any other race.. He is a homophobe and unfortunately, homophobia is colour-blind and irrational.

    Also, we do seem to be in the ´blame game´ on here don´t we? Something happens, so someone else MUST be to blame and their heads must roll.

    What was the driver doing? I don´t know…probably driving? Why is it that drivers are usually enclosed and protected on buses themselves? is it because they themsleves often face attacks and violence? To be fair, his job is to drive the bus, not to place himself also in possible danger. And, by the time he could have done anything, the homophobe was probably long-gone anyway… But hey, what the hell, let´s hang the driver also!

    More to the point, what were the other passengers on the bus doing? Why did no-one come to these victims aid?

    This IS a clear case of homophobia, NOT a race issue. I do realise that some people and political parties will seek to make mileage out of it to forward their own warped political agendas. I would (hope) that we are above such rubbish?

  7. pete the meat 9 Jun 2010, 3:29pm

    BrazilBoysBlog, of the homophobia I’ve experienced in London 90% of the time it has been perpetrated by black “yoof”. Any incident of homophobia no matter how trivial it seems should be reported to the police. Its our city as much as anyone else’s. Though I doubt other minorities see it that way.

  8. Ian Bower 9 Jun 2010, 3:34pm

    May I suggest that all LGBT people buy and keep with them at all times this:
    http://tinyurl.com/37t8fcq

  9. The question ahs been asked ‘What did the driver do’? Let’s look at their role:

    The drivers job is to drive the bus.
    The drivers job is to notify the Police and his control room of the incident.
    The drivers job is to make sure, to the best of their ability that any CCTV equipment on their bus is working so that this kind of incident is captured.

    The drivers job is not to intervene and put themselves at risk. The drivers job is certainly not to try and detain the person, thus possibly making the incident worse as the detainee then lashes out even more.
    The drivers job is not to be a security guard, bouncer or Police Officer.

    Sure, if the driver thinks that they can successfully detain the person, eprhaps with the assistance of other passengers, then that’s fine, but they are bus drivers, no more, no less.

    No-one is calling for the other passengers to be detained or prosecuted because they failed to step in to combat the assailant, Why should the bus driver be suspended from their job? They should be interviewed, like anyone else and if they failed to appropriately handle the incident – i.e. contact their Control to summon the Police/ambulance, then yes, action should be taken.

    However, as they probably had the worst view of anyone on the bus, facing forward, looking at the road from their cab it could be that they were less aware of the incident than passenegers who may have sat there ignoring it, or who simply jumped off the bus and run away.

    And no, I am not a bus driver, neither are any of my friends or family, I am just someone who realises that it is unrealistic to expect a bus drivers ‘duty of care’ to extend into areas that fall entirely without their job description.

    By the by I notice that martin M assumes the driver was a man….

  10. vulpus_rex 9 Jun 2010, 3:36pm

    “And the driver did what?”

    He sat behind his plastic screen in the full knowledge that to do anything but sit there was to risk getting a thump or a knife in the guts.

    That’s london buses for you after 13 years of Liebour’s civilising influence on the capital.

  11. He probably considers himself pure in the eyes of god. :/ I don’t know why homophobia is more prevalent among the black community, but it is. We need stronger laws, not paper laws. What’s a piece of paper with human rights written on it going to do? We need to end this ridiculous exemption for religion & the media. We want action, not written law. There is no excuse for it. Could you even imagine a law that gave exemptions to organisations giving them the right to racially abuse or prejudice? No. Yet we have one for homophobes. As for the bus driver, not a job I’d ever want to be honest. So many idiots get on buses these days, he’d have to let no-one on at all to be sure. He can’t be aware of them all or see everything that happens. Hopefully the CCTV will catch this guy & the law will actually ‘punish’ him. Don’t hold your breath though.

  12. What is it with young black men mainly in our nations capital, that thinks this is acceptable behaviour. It worries me that instead of having a generation of more enlightened young people, we have created the opposite.

    Its about time British transport police started to patrol on the night buses in London.

  13. In the last 10 years living in London I have been subjected to verbal abuse on 4 seperate occasions. On every single occasion the abuser was black. Of course we do not denigrate a whole community but there is a problem with homophobia within certain elements and to play the race card every time it is mentioned is denial. Also being criticised here are others members of the public. It is sad that there seemed so little support but this guy is reported to be 6’2″ and who knows how he would have reacted to being challenged or what weapons he was carrying. Ian Baynham challenged his homophobic abusers in Trafalgar Square and died for his trouble. By the way, does anybody know what has happened on that case. I last read that the jury had retired to consider their verdict but nothing since.

  14. Granted the abuse. It usually ends there; How many Black people have committed physical assault on Gay people? The convictions for murder and GBH across London and the UK tell the full story: that homophobia is a non racial issue.

  15. silly billy 9 Jun 2010, 5:22pm

    In any one week go and buy a copy of the Islington Gazette and the Hackney Gazette. You might find that in Islington the majority of troublemakers are white, and in Hackney the majority of troublemakers are black. Something to do with where people live; common to both is the fact that it is young men.

    Also, the remarks at 10 are absolutely ludicrous. The Tories began the process of privatising the buses in the eighties, getting rid of conductors despite warnings that this would leave the drivers and passengers more at risk with no-one to manage the service inside the bus. Of course, protests were ignored in favour of making maximum income. To blame any of this on the Labour party is beyond stupidity; but perhaps only to be expected from the usual ignorant contributor.

  16. vulpus_rex 9 Jun 2010, 5:50pm

    @16 Privatising buses has nothing whatsoever to do with the standard of behaviour of the passengers.

    That man indulged himself in an unprovoked bout of homophobic abuse, he did so because he was 100% certain that:

    1) the victims were unlikely to defend themselves
    2) none of the fellow passangers were likely to intervene (scared of getting stabbed, or even worse prosecuted themselves)
    3) the bus driver would do nothing
    4) the police were unlikely to find him
    5) in summary he was going to get away scot free.

    That people can operate in such a way with out any fear of retribution or punishment is very much a function of the society in which they exist.

    That society is controlled and regulated by a government – who in this case have failed, miserably.

    Now please explain why it is stupid or ignorant to attribute responsibility in this way? (If I were to lower myself to your level of ad hominem abuse, I would end that sentence with the words “you thick T*at”, but I won’t).

  17. The bus driver has duty of care for those passengers on his bus – of course he must avoid putting himself at risk – but why he didn’t stop the bus from his protected position and call for assistance – may well have something to do with the victims of said abuse -

  18. If you had not noticed vulpus_rex, this crime was committed under a Tory/Lib Dem government! We have already had one mass murder and this in 6 weeks of government.

    I fear it will be a very long and bloody 5 years!

  19. I can think of 2 gay clubs and 1 bar in brixton and none in barking. why is that if black people are more homophobic?

  20. silly billy 9 Jun 2010, 9:13pm

    Stupid:
    1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
    2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
    3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
    4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
    5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

  21. Lets face facts and stop pussy-footing round the big black elphant in the room – any of us who use public transport, walk around London and read the local papers crime reports knows perfectly well that the perpetrators of homophobia and physical assault are overwhelmingly from the black communities, as is, sadly and very visably, mental illness.

    There are many highly educated, liberal minded and decent black citizens of this city who make a very positive contribution to our society but there are even greater numbers who do not. Same goes for Moslem Londoners too who frequently verbally assault and increasingly physically assault gay people especially in the East of London. This should be openly discussed not cloaked in a pc smoke-screen.

  22. Sister Mary Clarance 9 Jun 2010, 10:56pm

    Ohhh blimey the broad finger of blame us certainly out with vengeance today.

    I think it is fair to say that there is a problem with homophobia and views on homosexuality stemming from the African community, but let’s face it, you reap what you sow in this life and possibly it wasn’t the brightest of ideas to send hordes missionaries into Africa preaching particularly intolerant brands of Christianity, which were then internalised and assimilated into traditional Africa culture, helped in no small part by laws introduced into the colonies outlawing homosexuality.

    Europe, and particularly the UK, taught Africa to hate, so is it any wonder those migrating to Europe will cling onto the beliefs indoctrinated into them.

  23. Wow. Sure is racist up in here.

    I lived in London for a while and the only time I encountered homophobic abuse, it was from a fat white chav girl. A black guy on the bus stood up to defend my girlfriend and I.

    Fat white chav girls are clearly the problem! Sure, some fat white chav girls can be perfectly tolerant, but there are more that aren’t than those that are!

  24. BobbetStillTheSame 10 Jun 2010, 4:33am

    only gay people with clout reach the pages of pink news. the rest? probably under the bus

  25. Pot calling the kettle gay?…

    This may not be a race issue. But the fact is that he, as a black man, should appreciate and understand better what it’s like to be discriminated against in such a way. No doubt, at least once in his life, he’s had to defend himself against people like BNP members.

    It’s a fact the black community are more homophobic, and this really P*55^s me off for that reason.

  26. Robert you’re right it just as idiotic as racist gay people as they too know what it’s like to be discriminated against. gay people were laways welcome in black communities as you were seen as rebels. when the dirty little gay racism secret got out things changed. why did the gay scene take such a shift to the right?

  27. This case is a disgrace. It’s time better education was taught in the schools and the 1st lesson being that being gay ISN’T a crime in the UK. Acting violently against it is!

    @Outraged

    You thread (19) is quite laughable. To blame the LibCom’s for it.

    You conveinently leave out that it was under a Labour government that these homophobic crimes increased tenfold. These homophobic violent crimes usually from meer children under a gay-loving Labour Government?

    Get real!

    You convieniently forget that under Labour we now have children fighting and killing themselves with guns and knives on our streets.

    Play ignorance if you want but please stop doing the dumb routine… It’s pathetic!

  28. Littlebear 10 Jun 2010, 9:20am

    The driver does have a duty of care for his passengers safety this I will agree with, however he is not allowed to aggrevate situations and make them worse. BoJo has promised more PCSO’s and police on the buses as the British Transport Police only police the rail network.
    I think instead of trying to work out who is to blame here, we should stand united as a community and provide solutions to BoJo about what he can do about it.

  29. The likelihood of a homosexual defending a black man because of a shared sense of being a minority is a lot higher than a black man defending a homosexual. Why? Probably because we are a uniquitous, biological minority and our arguments are based overwhelmingly on the idea that we are born equal – wherever you are in the world. Glbalised equality, if you like. Thus, as we are born gay, we are equal from the start. Cultures, however, are not equal, because they are not biological, they are main-made. I would not consider Islam, Christianity or any theistic religion on a par with progressive democracy. Ethnic and cultural minorities don’t stand up for other minorities, just their own – or those they think will strengthen their own cause. You can probably count on one hand how many times in your life you have heard a black person speaking up for gay rights. You will find gay people in the UK every day defending black rights because, having not been poisoned by religious doctrine or backward cultures, we know that black gay people are the same as white gay people – they are born equal to others and should be treated as such. Non-gay blacks, probably indoctrinated by religion and community-induced shame, think it is acquired. Being part of a diaspora merely magnifies their feelings for such values and often leads to extreme behaviour. Moreover, has anyone ever been abused by an ethnically Chinese person in the UK? I don’t know anyone who has – they perhaps don’t integrate well, but they don’t go out of their way to abuse the white population (or its values) either.

    Loony lefties seem to think that when migrants arrive in the UK, they undergo an immediate enlightenment and adhere willingly to the openness of the UK. Do you think expat Brits in Dubai think that Muslim culture is wonderful? No, they stay because it’s financially better, in the same way as migrants coming to the UK. And thus the values within these communities remains unchanged through the way groups stick together and reconfirm to one another that what they thought about homosexuals back in Somalia, Jamaica or Pakistan is still right. We now have a huge problem here – not just towards gays, but with mysogyny, violence, gangs, honour-killings, forced-marriages and anti-intellectualism (see whay Bill Cosby says on the matter) within non-white communities. Multiculturalism hasn’t worked, as much as I would have liked it to, it just peddles self-segregation and the retention of values and morals that are incompatible with our society.

    You can blame the West for sending Christian missionaries to Africa, the slave trade or whatever, but that’s for those that prefer to live in the past and blame the West for everything. I wasn’t from that world then and I shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences of it. I want something done about this NOW. If ever I have had trouble, it’s been from the Black or Asian communties, though despite the fact my mind could justifiably have caused me to hate them, I am still polite and warm to them….until they cross that line. Which I think is pretty damn honourable considering. To do any justice to ourselves and the members of those communities that are good, honest and progressive citizens of the UK, this endemic homophobia needs to be eliminated.

    Those playing the race card ought maybe to walk through one of our nice little London or Birmingham ghettos holding hands with their other halves and see for themselves. Then, because ‘everyone is equal’, they should try striking up a conversation on teh subject. Yeah, go on? In the interest of self-preservation, perhaps you won’t. Or perhaps watch Stephen K. Amos’ documentary about homophobia in Jamaica and how it is propagated in the UK through churches, media and the communities themselves. There is a strong correlation between ethnicity and homophobic incidents and we have to stop denying this. And the number being perpetrated by the black and Asian communities is grossly disproportionate to any being carries out by white/European assailants. Use all the stats you want, but they aren’t making anyone feel any better – maybe because those with their wits about them know where the threats to them really lie.

  30. editing is a good thing

  31. well bloody said spooks

  32. Call me a cynic but why do I think Spooks post is just a cut and past job from the BNP, NF or EDL.

    While we do have some justifiable concerns, we must not let them be manipulated by far right fascist groups.

  33. Outraged: Is that the best you can do?

  34. Outraged – Aside from the fact you wouldn’t see anything pro-gay on a BNP or NF web site (I’ve looked at them many times to know what I am up against), ifI had done a cut and paste job, you might have thought I’d choose a site that didn’t have as many spelling mistakes. Perhaps you are intimidated by my ability to formulate a cohesive argument. Are you of the school of thought that anyone criticising a minority is a racist/homophobe/fascist? I’m actually standing up for people like you, lest you forget. Not to mention, as I said before, the honest, decent people in the black and Asian communities who I assume would not want to be tarnished with the image many like me have of them. If you think there isn’t a disproportionate level of homophobia in the black and Asian communities, then by all means contest my views. But back them up with something. It sounds more like you are a social commentator who doesn’t have any views of his own, but just attacks everyone else’s through having nothing better to do. I am one of many on here trying to be constructive – if we don’t deal with these problems, there will be more segregation, more hatred and a BNP government. Unless that’s what you want, of course. Gay voters, last time I checked, weren’t one-issue voters. They will vote against immigration and for more right-wing parties if they feel their interests are not being met as much as anyone else.

    We have our own homophobia in the white community which we have been allowed to tackle because it is not being fought on race or ethnic grounds. As soon as white men start defending one minority against another, it suddenly becomes racist. Gay rights go in the same bracket as those of women, the disabled and children and far as I am concerned – all biological. Any community thereatening the security of those groups, I will condemn. Simple.

  35. Sister Mary Clarance 10 Jun 2010, 4:04pm

    That’s all well and good Spooks – I can’t help wondering if there is any reason why you have singled out non-white communities in your little seemingly well-reasoned rant).

    Pink news regularly covers the difficulties faced in relation to homophobia in Eastern Europe and when doing your global rounding up of homophobic hot zones you didn’t feel the need to highlight any issues with the increasingly large Eastern European communities in the UK.

    Prejudice of any sort is usually borne out of ignorance. To combat this we have an education system, as a black person who does speak up for gay rights (one of the few apparently) I would say that that system is failing and does not compensate for the attitudes that many first generation Africa immigrates have been taught in their home countries (as a result of influences and laws introduced by European colonists). So there are two failing, one in the past and one in the present.

    In my view those are the reasons, although they are not excuses.

    Its interesting that you don’t believe its right that you should suffer the consequences of the actions of others that went before you. Probably those people living in Afghanistan feel the same about the problems caused after the US armed Bin Laden to fight the Russian./ They shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences. The decedents of those killed when we bombed the Japanese at the end of the second world war probably didn’t want to suffer the consequences of exposure by their parents to radiation, but they did.

    Actions have consequences in the grown up world and those consequences sometimes extend well past those originally involved and long past them.

    We have no idea at this stage why the people were targeted. It could have been for any reason. The guy may well have had mental health problems for example that caused him to lash out at others (cue discussion about the prevalence of mental health issues in the gay community).

    It could have been any of a number of other reasons, or of course it may be as you appear to be suggesting because black people are evil and bad.

  36. In San Francisco they used to report the race of gay bashers in the BAR newspaper. When people started complaining that it was racist to report that blacks were causing some 30% of the violence against gays, the solution was to stop publishing the race of the perpetrators.

  37. SMC – You are indeed entitled to your views, but I do think they are nothing more than childish rants to blame past generations of Europeans who colonised Africa instead of looking at the actions of your own community. Not content with that, you want to blame us for the present too. A bit of shared responsibility would be appreciated, but apparently you aren’t interested in that. Nice try to educate me on the “harsh realities of grown-up life”, but I’m sure you’d be protesting if I said that black people were entitled to persecution because they’d been nasty to white people a couple of hundred years ago. Do you think some people are entitled to be abused because of historical contexts then? Do you think that we should continue to retaliate on each other for the sake of old feuds? Should Croats and Slovenes be entitled to slap Serbs in the street as some twisted form of just retribution from the Yugoslav wars? Never heard about two wrongs not making a right? Not very progressive at all. I’m not going to put up with disrespect from anyone when I don’t deserve it. And if your community needs to be taught a lesson in equality to achieve that, then that’s fine with me. Mind you, for all you know I could even be black. But then I guess if I was you’d call me a self-hating black or something, wouldn’t you.

    In any case, am I a 200 year old European? Did I go out and commit those colonial atrocities? No, and I shouldn’t have to pay for it by suffering centuries old homophobia just because you, as a descendant from an invaded country, feel the need to blame me and my ‘white European’ background in the most childish of manners. Also, by focusing on Eastern Europeans, all you are doing is trying to deflect attention away from your own community. East Europeans are causing problems too, this we all know, but the discussion here wasn’t about them. Stop trying to change the subject, it’s pathetic. Ditto for the Afghan argument – what the hell was that about? I don’t think any Afghan citizen deserves to suffer what they are going through, especially when it had nothing to do with them anyway. Do you just love to call people haters for the sake of it?

    You are exactly the kind of person who shouldn’t be involved in these discussions, all you do is play the fascist card. It’s cheap and outdated. You take the very petty stance of many left-wing, self-victimising types who love to label everyone else as a means to deflect away from issues you don’t want to tackle in our society. I haven’t suggested black people are evil and bad and I resent you childish insinuation that I have – did you think I would respect you for saying something like that? What, as any logical person on here will see, is highlighted is the fact that homophobia in the black community is disproportionately higher than in the white community. Many of us have been on the receiving end of it and we’d like to stop it. Now. Would you rather we didn’t for the sake of political correctness and just leave ourselves open to more intimidation? Presumably you wouldn’t mind being attacked by a black person because of your sexuality? Or would you just resent it from white people? I grew up in a very white area, thinking that anyone who was black was a victim of racism – that’s all I ever saw on the TV and I never met a ‘bad black person’ all the time I was at school. We didn’t actually distinguish between people because integration was so successful, we saw beyond the colour of skin and didn’t feel that our values were any different. It was only on arriving at university that I saw how the black guys from the ghettos of London treated the girls (especially if they had white boyfriends) and gave gay black guys grief. A gay black friend of mine was told, as I witnessed, that he couldn’t be gay because it was like saying he was less black. He just sighed and said it was par for the course. Maybe you’d like to call him a liar? Much to my dismay, it opened my eyes to social problems that I hadn’t been aware of. And these were meant to be educated black guys. So ignorance breeds prejudice, does it? I’m afraid your theory doesn’t work. Many religious and bigoted people go to university or are well-travelled too, shock horror.

    It should also be noted….given that migration from Eastern Europe has only been happening since 2004, it is a bit on the early side to be determining how homophobic these migrants are. But, like other sensible people, I will err on the side of caution when dealing with communities where trouble has been known to rear its ugly head. I am a firm believer in self-preservation and would be no more likely to hold hands with a guy in front of a group of black youths as I would be when walking through a rough white council estate. Regrettably, there is always a truth to the stereotype, that’s where the stereotypes come from. Look no further than the gay community for that – gay media pumps little else out other than cheap stereotypical nonsense. If it didn’t sell, it wouldn’t be published, so there must be a fair few out there who do conform to that type.

    In the meantime, perhaps you ought to do something about that chip on your shoulder. Or go through all the criminal records in the UK and attempt, one by one, to clear the names of all the perpetrators by citing mental illness. You could do that for everyone, or maybe you’d just like to focus on the black community.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali would be livid with you!

  38. Sister Mary Clarance 10 Jun 2010, 5:30pm

    Spooks, I’m afraid you were a bit selective in what you got from my previous posting. I don’t think the current education system in this country is the same one we had 200 years ago and I think I made the point that it is something the education system should be working to address.

    If you read what I wrote properly I didn’t dispute higher levels of homophobia in black communities however if you trek back in history in many African countries you will see that gay people did have a place in tribal communities and where valued for what they brought to those communities, something happened though when the missionaries and colonial arrived and people were ‘educated’ to believe something different. No, of course that’s not your fault, but then its not the fault of those who were forced through subjugation to believe that homosexuality was either, particularly when there are still today those at work in Africa peddling the same notions on the back of humanitarian aid.

    Then for people to migrate from Africa retaining the information that has been passed to them is hardly surprising really.

    You bang on about actions 200 years ago but I think you might want to update yourself a little more on 20th Century history because much of what was taught and many of the laws that exist in Africa came about far nearer the current day that you appear to realise.

    Clearly you’re struggling with the concept of culture and colour. They are not one and the same and I might have a little more respect for your views if you had any appreciation of them.

    Apologies if you felt my previous posting was childish, but I felt your was rather naive and simplistic (childlike almost!). I can’t imagine where you live, but your comments suggest that its not somewhere with much in the way of non-indigenous communities.

    With regard to Eastern Europe, they make up around 40% of the immigration into the UK when discounting returning Brits. There are over two million Poles alone in the UK. Were the hell do you imagine they all are? Of course there are large Eastern European communities in the UK, as are they large South American Communities, often with very strong religion based views on homosexuality. The difference of course spooks is that they are harder to identify as different from you because they aren’t black.

    The world in infinitely more complex that your black and white view on it, ans you’ll have to excuse me for confusing your ignorance with racism.

  39. did anyone read all that rubbish

  40. I agree Sister Mary Clarance that many traditional African tribal cultures had a much more understanding attitude to sexuality and gender. They had these at a time when our western values where barbaric when it came to being gay and trans. The arrival of colonialism destroyed much of the traditional tribal culture of Africa. In its place was put the christian fundamentalist ideals of the missionaries. Before that in some parts of Africa Islam did the same thing.

    Africa had gay marriages and a concept of a third gender while we still burnt and stoned LGBT people to death, sadly that collective knowledge is mostly lost having been replaced by the intolerance of Christianity and Islam as it was imposed on Africa.

    I think we also forget people like Lord Byron escaped the UK’s homophobia to what is now Turkey, to live openly as a gay man. Iraq and Iran also has a not too distant history that was far more tolerant towards LGBT people than the UK was at the time.

    In the last 100 years that Islam changed its view on LGBT people as it became more radical.

    LGBT tolerance in the West has only happened in the past 40 years.

    We taught Africa to hate the LGBT and we also taught that same hate to the slaves we transported to the Caribbean and America, yet we used to call them savages!

  41. Sister Mary Clarance 10 Jun 2010, 6:23pm

    Outraged – thank you!

  42. SMC – Well let’s trek back to Ancient Greece and look how it was fine to be gay then, surely that exonerates Europeans from forcing Christianity on Africa? Get a grip woman! Going back in time is not going to solve the problems we have. You are determined to wear that argument out, aren’t you. If you’d like to join the more rational amongst us and look forward to a more equal world instead of trying to gain moral revenge on European ancestors through their descendents, then we’d all be grateful. As for other historical facts you’ve missed out, you might like to take note that the UK has been providing aid to its former colonies (and elsewhere) since the end of the Empire. It has welcomed migrant workers from those countries and it has put laws in place to protect them. You, as a black person, have the same rights as I do. How you exercise or abuse those rights is up to you, but like everyone else you must take responsibility for your actions. Blaming everyone else and various historical events will not win you many admirers.

    There is no confusion of colour and culture in my mind, which I have been trying to get across (or rather you don’t want to notice that part). They are not necessarily the same, of course, that’s obvious. You are born with a colour, but not a specific set of values. What YOU ought to appreciate is that colour and values are often very closely associated, however. In the same way that certain cultures are associated with white Europeans or North Americans. Or would you dispute that? And as for accusing me of making things simplistic, you’re the one who lumped all European Colonists together as a singular mass – you are such a hypocrite. You do know there are differences between the histories of different European colonists, don’t you? No, thought not.

    Where I grew up is irrelevant, it’s how I view things now. There are many things I was taught as I was growing up that I don’t adhere to now. Such as that black people could do no wrong and that nasty white men were the cause of all their ills. As I pointed out there was no perceivable racism where I was from, so whether or not you’re surrounded by other cultures does not determine how racist you are. Most minorities will state that rural areas are racist and homophobic. Sorry, where I’m from, it wasn’t. More fool them. The greatest racism I have ever seen has been in London or Paris – huge, multi-cultural cities. Again, bang goes your theory.

    The fact that you are so patronising and prone to calling people simplistic and naive really says more about you and your sense of self-appointed superiority. It shows that you are not prepared to see the views of a wider range of people – i.e. the way any constructive policy maker would form the basis for a progressive plan to tackle the issue at stake. It’s not like you have actually suggested anything that would overcome these problems.

    And finally:

    “The difference of course spooks is that they are harder to identify as different from you because they aren’t black”

    Hmmm, the crux of your weak argument at last! What a huge, sweepingly general and cheap argument. East European migration has been huge, yes, but 6 years is hardly an adequate time period in which to determine how successful they have integrated or taken on more liberal values. To be honest, I am prepared to give any migrants a few years to get used to our values, wherever they’re vrom. Black communities have been living here in sizeable numbers since the 50s, and on British soil since long before that. British Indians, on the other hand, have been much more successful at integrating and even outstrip the white population percentage-wise in gaining university places. They’re a different colour to me just like black people, so why do I have less concerns with them? Oh, now your black and white argument has fallen flat on its backside. Bit predictable, eh?

    You basically want to believe that my argument is based solely on colour. It isn’t. I don’t care about colour, I care about culture. But, as mentioned before, colour and culture are very closely linked and until that changes, I will be advocating that the black community needs to be a focus of re-education to eliminate the endemic homophobic values. I say the same about Christian, Jewish, Muslim and whatever other communities that extol these values and negatively impact on the lives of gay people. Funnily enough, my black and mixed-race friends also agree with me because, like me, they know their own community.

    So, brain box, what do YOU think should be done to reduce homophobia in black communities? After all, you are the self-declared authority aren’t you? I can predict that it probably involves educating ignorant white people who are endemically racist and don’t give black people a chance. Labour may have tried to snuff out my white voice, but I’m afraid SMC you can’t. There are gay people to protect here, that is my sole interest.

  43. Outraged – what is you point exactly? That different cultures have espoused different views at varying stages of our terrestrial history? Er, well done for stating the obvious. We all know that. What I am trying to get across is that we need to protect people based on the scenarios we have TODAY. Yes, TODAY, when it actually counts. Turkey was once more liberal, but it isn’t anymore and therefore we cannot excuse any anti-gay treatment it dishes out. Unless you think it’s wrong to stop people being anti-gay.

    I really don’t understand anyone that wants to relive the past for the sake of starting an argument. SMC, Outrage, go and live in Africa if you want to wallow in the greatness of their supposedly liberal pasts. I’m sure you’ll be back crying before long.

    For everyone else, let’s try and live in the present and fight homophobia wherever it is, especially in communities that espouse such hatred.

  44. Outrage – when you say ‘we taught Africa to hate LGBT people’, well actually you mean, ‘our ancestors’ did. And they didn’t know what T was probably. Our ancestors also used to live in caves many millennia ago. Perhaps you enjoy taking the blame for their actions, but I am blameless so please don’t put those of us born after 1900 in that bracket. Cheers mate.

  45. Sister Mary Clarance 10 Jun 2010, 7:26pm

    “Most minorities will state that rural areas are racist and homophobic. Sorry, where I’m from, it wasn’t. More fool them”

    Sure

    “So, brain box, what do YOU think should be done to reduce homophobia in black communities?”

    Scroll back a wee bit genius and you will see that I have twice mentioned EDUCATION as being key to addressing prejudice.

    Maybe if they’re having a few extra lessons (for the blacks mainly obviously) they could maybe let you sit in on a few.

    And for fvcks sake cut out the down trodden black with a chip on my shoulder routine. I’m black and I’ve dared to disagree with tarring millions of people with the same brush and therefore I have got a chip on my shoulder. Of course there’s nothing wrong with the way you see the world.

    You have not got the slightest clue why the victims were attacked by you have used the opportunity to inform everyone using the site about the woes of multiculturalism and how we must adopt your view of the BNP will gain government.

    Well I’m not entirely sure you’re such a good judge to be frank.

    You seem to have no concept of the effect of nurture on beliefs, although you mention it yourself, you’re not actually following the logic through.

    You seem to think that the relatively small number of black people arriving in the 50s would in some way mean that the much larger numbers arriving afterward should therefore be pre-intergrated. The bulk of African immigration was a good deal later (and ongoing of course), and you may remember that a good deal of the incumbent white population fought strongly against integration – hence the immigrate estate ghettos that still exist today in some London boroughs for example. They didn’t come here and say stick us all together in your most run down estates did they after all spooks?

    And most laughable of all labeling me as some left wing loony accusing you of being a fascist. Cloudy judgment there I’m afraid. I don’t think i’ve suggested you’re anything of the sort and as a paid up member of the Tory party for many years, the ‘loony left’ label is a hoot.

    Perhaps we could get back through to what this sort is about. People getting abused and attacked on public transport by a guy, ‘who attacked them and was black’ if you must, but who did not ‘attack the because he was black’

  46. PumpkinPie 10 Jun 2010, 7:34pm

    @Claire: Wow. Sure is racist up in here.

    My thoughts exactly. I can’t believe I read through this ****. Of course, if I hadn’t read through this thread, then I would have missed some excellent posts by Sister Mary Clarance, Outraged, and a few others.

    And I find it funny that Spooks is under the egregious impression that Western missionaries are no longer preaching homophobia in Africa. Also, what a funny coincidence that “spook” is an old slur against black people, eh? Ah, but words have many meanings, I suppose. I just found it amusing, that’s all.

  47. Spooks or is that Neville!

  48. Cara SMC,

    “Scroll back a wee bit genius and you will see that I have twice mentioned EDUCATION as being key to addressing prejudice.”

    Yeah….education is one word. A bit vague and wishy-washy. How about an action plan or some sort? Some actual ideas of what this ‘education’ might entail? As usual, all chat and no substance.

    “And for fvcks sake cut out the down trodden black with a chip on my shoulder routine. I’m black and I’ve dared to disagree with tarring millions of people with the same brush and therefore I have got a chip on my shoulder. Of course there’s nothing wrong with the way you see the world.”

    Nice try for the sympathy vote (again), but you do sound like a wingeing member of a minority who is determined to feel sorry for themselves. You are also forgetting you’re own fvcking hypocrisy in that you were quite happy to label all Europeans as the same. Isn’t that tarring everyone with the same brush? Or am I missing the SMC Rule Book somewhere. Hypocrisy is NOT constructive. Instead of being the heroine to millions of black people, you are actually encouraging their second-class status by refusing to look at the problems within your own community for the sake of feeling sorry for yourself. Congrats!

    “You have not got the slightest clue why the victims were attacked by you have used the opportunity to inform everyone using the site about the woes of multiculturalism and how we must adopt your view of the BNP will gain government.”

    Neither have you, other than your weak mental health theory. It’s a discussion about issues arising from the article. This happens on every thread, don’t try and pretend it’s the first time to suit your agenda. If everyone carried on with your violin-bowing self-pityfest, the BNP would be in power already. Someone raised the issue, I followed it up. Perhaps you shouldn’t be a politician sweetheart.

    By the way, you were the first to comment on here with:

    “And the driver did what?”

    Again, another attempt to blame everyone else for the negative consequences of someone’s actions. You soon shut up when someone pointed out the driver could have been a woman and also that it isn’t his/her duty to dive in and attack thugs. You should give the driver an apology. He/she may even have been black you know ;)

    Let’s see, what else:

    “Well I’m not entirely sure you’re such a good judge to be frank.”

    Why? Because you are a good judge? Your moral authority being precisely what? Apparently not, especially given your revelations on European colonial history and its supposed monoculture. Perhaps you think a Romanian is the same as a Norwegian. Hmmm….

    “You seem to think that the relatively small number of black people arriving in the 50s would in some way mean that the much larger numbers arriving afterward should therefore be pre-intergrated.”

    Er, no again, dumbass. Scroll your little finger up the page and see where it says ” To be honest, I am prepared to give any migrants a few years to get used to our values, wherever they’re vrom”. I have even left the spelling mistake in the quote for you. The subsequent generations arriving ‘should’ have an already integrated community to turn to and thus make the new wave of immigrants able to settle and integrate quicker. 50 years later, this is still not happening in the black community (nor with their offspring), but other communities have managed fine. Given that you say a relatively small number arrived in the 50s, then this integration should have been all the more successful. The onus of integrating isn’t solely on the host nation. And I stand by that for all the Brits who live in Spain and wherever else in the world.

    “The bulk of African immigration was a good deal later (and ongoing of course), and you may remember that a good deal of the incumbent white population fought strongly against integration – hence the immigrate estate ghettos that still exist today in some London boroughs for example. They didn’t come here and say stick us all together in your most run down estates did they after all spooks?”

    I never said they did. Today, black Britons have all the same rights of where to live and where to work. With free access to education up to 18, they have the same opportunities as everyone else. Being gay is actually less socially acceptable than being black, but I’m not condemning the whole system to make myself feel better like you are. Why are they still in the ghettos and why is homophobic crime still hugely disproportionate compared to other communities? I’ve mentioned Bill Cosby before, you should read up, you might learn something. That man is an underrated genius.

    “Perhaps we could get back through to what this sort is about. People getting abused and attacked on public transport by a guy, ‘who attacked them and was black’ if you must, but who did not ‘attack the because he was black’

    Then you’ll just start the whole discussion again. People are wondering whether the fact he was black had anything to do with the attack. That’s how we got onto this, remember?

    And actually, I did know you were a Tory, you agreed with me on various things a few weeks ago (of course, you’d forgotten that, hence your accidental condescending attitude and sense of moral superiority). Loony lefties peddle the same crap that you have on here, maybe I’ll just call you loonies instead now that you have managed to broaden the spectrum. If you are such an ardent socialist, I cannot understand what you could see in the Tory party. From what I understand, they share my views on immigration entirely. I should know, I did work for them once.

    You have a nice night, eh. I’m off to play badminton with my friend. Oh, and he’s black, straight, a socialist and very much agrees with me. My oldest friend. But he’s one of those progressive types that doesn’t diss the UK and the white population for the sake of it, in the same way that I don’t with his community. Unless there is genuine reason for concern – concerns which he understands and that he has tried to address. I am the one who protected him at school when he was picked on. He also stood up for me when his father said that being gay was wrong. His father still doesn’t accept it, but he is a past generation, Darren lives for now and looks to the future instead of trying to change what has been done. We are examples of how different communities can get on if they look forward (not back on old feuds like you) and shed the more hysterical values they may have had instilled in them by their families.

    That, my dear, is how to be progressive.

  49. “And I find it funny that Spooks is under the egregious impression that Western missionaries are no longer preaching homophobia in Africa. Also, what a funny coincidence that “spook” is an old slur against black people, eh? Ah, but words have many meanings, I suppose. I just found it amusing, that’s all.”

    Am I under that impression? I think you’ve just invented that, purely because you have nothing to actually say of substance. I know those Christian loonies are there and they shouldn’t be, well done for stating the obvious like your fellow loon Outraged. But what do you think about Muslims doing the same here? Would that be ok? Should we tolerate that? Ultimately those Christian nutjobs are an issue for whichever African country they happen to be in. I live here and I am interested primarily in what happens to my country. If I lived there, I would be doing something about it. I don’t have to be responsible for the whole world from my armchair.

    PS I fail to see how your reference to a black slur has any relevance. You tend to add these pointless things in a lot, don’t you (like all others who can’t formulate an argument). Can you perhaps add something useful to the conversation? Maybe you know how to deal with homophobia in the black community in a less ‘racist’ way? No wishy-washy ‘education’ answers please…….

  50. Sister Mary Clarance 11 Jun 2010, 1:53am

    “Yeah….education is one word. A bit vague and wishy-washy. How about an action plan or some sort? Some actual ideas of what this ‘education’ might entail? As usual, all chat and no substance.”

    Ohhh, yeah, ‘action plan’, tell you what I’ll skip the Sudoku this evening and draw up a pan European action plan instead.

    What planet ….

  51. Sister Mary Clarance 11 Jun 2010, 1:57am

    “Again, another attempt to blame everyone else for the negative consequences of someone’s actions. You soon shut up when someone pointed out the driver could have been a woman and also that it isn’t his/her duty to dive in and attack thugs. You should give the driver an apology. He/she may even have been black you know”

    Hardly! History is littered with veiled threats for people to accept terrible things on the basis that something worse will happen if they don’t

    The BNP is a fringe party picking off the disaffected. Society has more sense than to allow them to gain any significant ground. All side in mainstream politics will continue to work together to ensure that they remain marginalised. Immature scare-mongering.

  52. Sister Mary Clarance 11 Jun 2010, 2:04am

    “You have a nice night, eh. I’m off to play badminton with my friend. Oh, and he’s black, straight, a socialist and very much agrees with me. My oldest friend.”

    Sure

    Nice variation on the ‘one of my best friends is gay’, and equally credible. Spot of luck I guess that he just fits nicely into your criteria for a nice black too. Mmmm, definitely a spot of luck there.

  53. Spooks: “Gay voters, last time I checked, weren’t one-issue voters.”
    You were obviously not here a month ago then. It seems everyone on here would vote for Satan himself as long as he was gay friendly.

  54. spools is text book ranting

  55. I’ve found the above discussion very interesting indeed (if requiring rather more concentration than usual to read while sneaking on at work), but I do wish everyone would stop using the word ‘community’. There is no one ‘black community’ any more than there is any one ‘Asian community’ in the UK, ultimately it’s a meaningless word in this context.

    (I’d say the same about ‘gay community’, except perhaps in the context of the reaction to this incident, but that’s another discussion.)

  56. PumpkinPie 11 Jun 2010, 2:44pm

    Haha, I got trolled good. Look at me, actually bothering to write a response to this KKK/BNP nut. It seems so easy to just walk away, but when you actually engage them in conversation, you get hooked! Oh deary me…

    Am I under that impression? I think you’ve just invented that, purely because you have nothing to actually say of substance. I know those Christian loonies are there and they shouldn’t be

    Excellent. So you admit that it’s not something that only happened hundreds of years ago. You admit that it is happening right now, and is caused by white people. According to your theories of collective guilt based on colour of skin, that should probably make you feel guilty. You need to start asking yourself why you white people are so obsessed with indoctrinating other cultures and making them hate LGBTs. Maybe you can apologise to your token black friend next time it’s convenient for you to see him. Go on, start the healing process. It’s alright, we know that not all white people are terrible savages. We understand. It wasn’t your choice to be born this way.

    But what do you think about Muslims doing the same here?

    They’re not. They’re completely ineffectual, except among people who are already muslims. There are no muslim missionaries here, only preachers who target those who are already muslim. I’m talking about people who ply their trade among the poor and vulnerable, looking to convert entire communities to their cause.

  57. “You need to start asking yourself why you white people are so obsessed with indoctrinating other cultures and making them hate LGBTs. Maybe you can apologise to your token black friend next time it’s convenient for you to see him.”

    Are we obssessed with doing that? Are white people from the UK leaving in their droves to make Africans hate gay people? And, did you not notice that you just made a sweeping generalisation about white people? Contradicting your own view tht generalising is bad? Where do you get this bull from, you vile hypocrite. Ultimately dealing with white nutters in Africa is down to those African states affected, not us. We deal with white nutters here already and we should be dealing with the black ones too – they are British and not exempt from facing up to their failings like everyone else. Perhaps you’d like me to write this out and send it to the mental health unit you are currently in.

    My ‘token black friend’ who has never been a token as I knew him before I even distunguished between colour, creed and anything else, would despise you for your lack of sense with regards to tackling homophobia. Not to mention your cheap, very tiresome comments about tokenism – you are cheapening him through that pathetic attack on me, which is rather offensive. He would condemn you for peddling anti-white views, but then that’s because he’s rational, fair and doesn’t consider himself to be constrained to socialising with only one social group. At badminton, we had a chat about this discussion and his view was simply that on sites such as this you will always find the disaffected wannabe-political types who onlt think in theory and have no idea of the practical implications involved when espousing such stupidly liberal/anarchic values. The types who sit on their computers day in and day out, hopping from one forum to the next as they have no real life. That in itself is unhealthy, but it equally shows that you aren’t actually engaging with wider society as much as you ought to. Society isn’t theoretical, it’s living, breathing, evolving and people base their views on their experiences within it. It also sounds like you are clinging on to being a victim as much as you possibly can (I’ve seen other posts by you). It is sad that your only response to everything is to call someone a homophobe or a racist. A stuck record. Are you really so weak in personality? How das for you that you take all your anger out on others because you can’t face up to your own existence. Unfortunately for you, not everyone shares your views, but they are no less or more valid. You just have to accept that. You are on the fringes on what most people in this country believe and would like to see in our society. If you were a political party, you’d get about 2% of the vote. Kind of Arthur Scargill in terms of success.

    Anyway, all this is fine Pumpkin Pie, you go and live in your anti-white world. Next time you get slapped on a bus by an African spouting homophobic abuse complete with quotes from the bible, you tell him it’s ok because nasty white people made him do it. You are obviously not prepared to listen to the real-life experiences of gay people in this country who have been suffering undue intimidation by black people here. You should also have noticed that those attacked have been very careful not to stir up racial hatred because they understand how it feels to be shunned and singled-out for prejudice. Very honourable of them, but now it’s dawning upon them that this won’t fix the problem. They need to be more vocal about the race of the perpetrators. No-one wants this, but it’s become inevitable. And I will consequently keep my guard up when interacting with black guys that I don’t know. It’s only human to protect yourself from cultural others and from any perceieved threats. To many of us, there is a threat.

    You live in an absolute fantasy world. And people like you who refuse to bring all communities into check (real equality!) as regards their values and behaviour because of some ultra-left agenda will cause as much damage to our society as the BNP. You can dress your ideas up to appear as intellectual as you want, you can twist what everyone says with clever word play, but ultimately you are burying your head in the sand to real problems that will ultimately affect us all if we let them. You’re just a petty coward who would rather wimp out than join in to sort out our society’s problems. I like to think that we can all live peacefully together with mutual respect one day, but with people like you out there making excuses for people on racial grounds and condemning majority cultures because it’s easy prey, we won’t achieve that. I suspect, ultimately, all you want is to have something to moan about – you’re a professional victim, what would your life be if it were easier? There’d be no use for you.

  58. “You need to start asking yourself why you white people are so obsessed with indoctrinating other cultures and making them hate LGBTs. Maybe you can apologise to your token black friend next time it’s convenient for you to see him.”

    Are we obssessed with doing that? Are white people from the UK leaving in their droves to make Africans hate gay people? And, did you not notice that you just made a sweeping generalisation about white people? Contradicting your own view tht generalising is bad? Where do you get this bull from, you vile hypocrite. Ultimately dealing with white nutters in Africa is down to those African states affected, not us. We deal with white nutters here already and we should be dealing with the black ones too – they are British and not exempt from facing up to their failings like everyone else. Perhaps you’d like me to write this out and send it to the mental health unit you are currently in.

    My ‘token black friend’ who has never been a token as I knew him before I even distunguished between colour, creed and anything else, would despise you for your lack of sense with regards to tackling homophobia. Not to mention your cheap, very tiresome comments about tokenism – you are cheapening him through that pathetic attack on me, which is rather offensive. He would condemn you for peddling anti-white views, but then that’s because he’s rational, fair and doesn’t consider himself to be constrained to socialising with only one social group. At badminton, we had a chat about this discussion and his view was simply that on sites such as this you will always find the disaffected wannabe-political types who onlt think in theory and have no idea of the practical implications involved when espousing such stupidly liberal/anarchic values. The types who sit on their computers day in and day out, hopping from one forum to the next as they have no real life. That in itself is unhealthy, but it equally shows that you aren’t actually engaging with wider society as much as you ought to. Society isn’t theoretical, it’s living, breathing, evolving and people base their views on their experiences within it. It also sounds like you are clinging on to being a victim as much as you possibly can (I’ve seen other posts by you). It is sad that your only response to everything is to call someone a homophobe or a racist. A stuck record. Are you really so weak in personality? How das for you that you take all your anger out on others because you can’t face up to your own existence. Unfortunately for you, not everyone shares your views, but they are no less or more valid. You just have to accept that. You are on the fringes on what most people in this country believe and would like to see in our society. If you were a political party, you’d get about 2% of the vote. Kind of Arthur Scargill in terms of success.

    Anyway, all this is fine Pumpkin Pie, you go and live in your anti-white world. Next time you get slapped on a bus by an African spouting homophobic abuse complete with quotes from the bible, you tell him it’s ok because nasty white people made him do it. You are obviously not prepared to listen to the real-life experiences of gay people in this country who have been suffering undue intimidation by black people here. You should also have noticed that those attacked have been very careful not to stir up racial hatred because they understand how it feels to be shunned and singled-out for prejudice. Very honourable of them, but now it’s dawning upon them that this won’t fix the problem. They need to be more vocal about the race of the perpetrators. No-one wants this, but it’s become inevitable. And I will consequently keep my guard up when interacting with black guys that I don’t know. It’s only human to protect yourself from cultural others and from any perceieved threats. To many of us, there is a threat.

    You live in an absolute fantasy world. And people like you who refuse to bring all communities into check (real equality!) as regards their values and behaviour because of some ultra-left agenda will cause as much damage to our society as the BNP. You can dress your ideas up to appear as intellectual as you want, you can twist what everyone says with clever word play, but ultimately you are burying your head in the sand to real problems that will ultimately affect us all if we let them. You’re just a petty coward who would rather wimp out than join in to sort out our society’s problems. I like to think that we can all live peacefully together with mutual respect one day, but with people like you out there making excuses for people on racial grounds and condemning majority cultures because it’s easy prey, we won’t achieve that. I suspect, ultimately, all you want is to have something to moan about – you’re a professional victim, what would your life be if it were easier? There’d be no use for you.

    End of.

  59. Pumpkin – have you never noticed what a racist you actually are? You only ever single out white people for blame. Or straight people. Basically, the majority is always the problem according to you. If you want to talk about minorities, then you’ll find that only 9% of the world is actually white – oh, based on your thinking we should be the ones playing the violins. I’m not sure how old you are, but I am guessing pretty young from this naivety. I get the impression everything you claim you ‘know’ has come from the internet or media. When you’ve pushed a few pubes out and got a driving licence, maybe you’d like to travel a bit. See some ‘real’ people and ask them about their experiences. And see why they have the views they do. You’ll find that your views are in the minority in this country, you’d garner maybe 2% if you were a political party. Like Arthur Scargill (you’re probably too young to know who he is, though I’m sure you’ll quickly look him up on wikipedia in a petty attempt to prove otherwise). White Christian loonies are in Africa, let African states deal with that. Black Christian loonies are here, let us deal with that. Though I’m sure you’d disagree that only the white loonies should be chastised because the poor little black loonies here have been made that way by nasty white people.

    As regards my ‘token black friend’ (how DARE you insult him in that way, you are degrading him, which I highly resent), I discussed this all with him at badminton. His view was that there will always bee disaffected people, such as yourself, who can’t face up to the harsh realities of the world and spend their lives trolling forum after forum instead of actually experiencing the real world. It’s safer, it means that people can’t dispute what you say to your face and you can pretend to be someone you’re not. He’s right. And I suspect that you are one of those people he outlined. It might also be noted that he perceives the threat from Islam on our society as much as any other centrist voter does. He knows that Christianity is weakening (hurrah) in the UK, but we should be mindful to reduce the negative impact of all faiths. We are both against faith schools, including C of E, as they promote undemocratic values that maintain inequalities in society. This, to me, is my ideal of multiculturalism. In reality, multiculturalism has failed, we’ve allowed people to continue with practices and beliefs that discriminate against others – gays take note – and now people expect to retain the right to pass those on to their children. Allowing yet another generation of inequality. I don’t care in what communities these problems lie, they should be tackled. But, unsurprisingly, some communities are more problematic than others and more attention needs to be focused on them. It’s treating everyone the same, calling a spade a spade. Or rather a homophobe a homophobe.

    You may be happy to sit by and try to excuse all these offenders, blaming white people to avoid appearing racist, but I’m not. The man with the real strength is the one who faces up to the most challenging situations. You, on the other hand Pumpkin, are the epitome of cowardice. I have no time for cowards.

  60. Apols for several of the same, it wouldn’t past originally and I had to start over.

  61. Sister Mary Clarance 12 Jun 2010, 11:45am

    I see Spooks so in short as well as not accepting that anything that has gone on in the world before now would or should have implications for the world today, you are unable and unwilling to accept responsibility for anything that is going on now.

    Oh that’s much better, yes, very much better.

  62. PumpkinPie 12 Jun 2010, 4:31pm

    And, did you not notice that you just made a sweeping generalisation about white people?

    Yup. I’m being ironic. Holding up a mirror to your own racism. Seems you didn’t like it.

    Anyway, your ranting is all well and good, but… Care to explain to me again why, if we all need to deal with bigots no matter their colour, you are so obsessed with insisting that black people in particular apologise en masse for their apparently internalised homophobia? I must have missed that bit. So sorry.

    It’s funny. I always thought that poverty, poor education and repression were prime motivators for homophobia, and that the connection with colour is merely that non-white people tend to be the people most affected by these things. Haha, boy do I look silly now, eh? Oh well, live and learn.

  63. PumpkinPie 12 Jun 2010, 4:34pm

    poverty, poor education and repression

    Oh, shoot. I meant to write “oppression”, not “repression” up there.

  64. Sister Mary Clarance 13 Jun 2010, 1:00am

    Oh no spooks you’re in the clear, its only us he wants to shoot (but only because if he doesn’t we’d probably shoot him, or mug him, or beat him on a bus) – you’re the wrong colour, well the right colour, so completely in the clear

  65. now thats what I call a screen dump spooks

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