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Trans woman refused NHS breast operation

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  1. “there was no duty … to classify all treatment and procedures sought by transsexuals as high priority or core procedures.”

    You mean they claisfy ANY as high priority? Realy? Year+ long wating lists to see a specialist and the number of people who resort to private treatement to stay safe and sane sugests otherwise.

  2. if they started the treament then they should have followed it to its completeion.

  3. Brenda Lana Smith R af D 25 May 2010, 12:36pm

    And similar glum news, too, for my Dutch M2F transsexual peers not genetically blessed with HRT enhanced breasts…

    The Netherlands – Minister: No Free Breasts for Transsexuals… [2010-04-15 NIS News]

    http://www.nisnews.nl/public/150410_2.htm

    Minister: No Free Breasts for Transsexuals

    THE HAGUE, 15/04/10 – The Lower House wants men having themselves transformed into women to be given breasts by the government. But Health Minister Ab Klink is not planning to do so.

    People who undergo a sex change operation are reimbursed for the medical costs in the Netherlands. This does not apply to secondary procedures, including electronic depilation of bodily hair and the creation of breasts.

    The House wants men undergoing a sex change to be reimbursed for these supplementary procedures as well. This would involve about 100 people a year and would only cost 250,000 euros, the House majority argues.

    But Klink will not change anything for now. He does not wish to give preferential treatment to transsexuals over and above real women who would dearly like to have bigger breasts and are also not reimbursed.

    © 1993-2007 Netherlands Info Services bv

  4. @Zzzzzzz
    is it casual transphobia day?

  5. ChutneyBear 25 May 2010, 1:36pm

    There is more important illnesses out there to worry about than if some bird was fake plastic t*ts. Honestly…..Shouldnt hvae been done in the first place

  6. Seems its actually Non-freedom of Speech Day, as my comment was removed. Someone’s had their sense of humour removed John, along with their genitals.

  7. why should the NHS pay for her breast operation? is it life threatening? no, pay for it yourself

  8. ChutneyBear 25 May 2010, 2:47pm

    Agree with Kieran !

  9. Most transsexuals do not support the court cases and see them as frivolous and unhelpful to the wider case for gender reassignment that is not frivolous and has plenty of justification for treatment.

  10. Pumpkin Pie 25 May 2010, 4:18pm

    Classic anti-LGBT NHS. You’re an infertile straight couple? Have some IVF! You’re a lesbian couple? No IVF for you! You’re a woman with a physical deficiency that deprived you of breasts? Have some boobs! You’re a transwoman? No boobs for you!

    If the purpose of SRS is to help the trans person pass as the opposite sex, why stop half-way? Seems pointless. Then again, I doubt most of the NHS’s rules-monkeys know what they’re doing half the time, anyway.

    I wonder if Kieran and Chutney would take reconstructive surgery off of the NHS. That stuff isn’t life-threatening, either. I’m sure they would, I just want to make sure everyone who’s against this case is willing to commit 100% to the “life-threatening only” regime. Otherwise, we’d just end up with discrimination.

  11. 370 zellars 25 May 2010, 5:05pm

    Pumpkin Pie you’re talking out of your well-rogered arse. The point Chutney, Kieran and quite a few other posters on here are making is that THIS IS NOT surgery that will change anything other than the recipients appearance. Would you throw in a jaw-realignment or electrolysis to remove masculine facial hair also? The trans patient want’s a new chest, she ain’t gonna get it on the free as its purely aesthetic. Let her save up and in the interim use those chicken-fillet bras she’s probably had to wear anyway. Sheesh……

  12. Well done Pink News on the depth of this report. If it was possible to get it any shorter or devoid of detail then I am confident that you would have done.
    The commenters above who have no idea about gender dysphoria are very lucky people. Vile, but lucky.

  13. This woman is 58 years old so it’s quite normal that, as a late transitioner, hormone treatment would not succeed in enabling her breasts to “develop properly”, whatever that’s supposed to mean! At her age, the most that hormones would do would be to increase her cup size slightly, perhaps by one size. She ought to have been aware of that, I’m sure she must have been. If money were no object, then she’d have a case but when cancer patients are being refused life-saving drugs, when people with dementia are having to sell their homes to pay for residential care, when public services are being cut, well she ought to contribute something to her treatment. I am trans and paid for everything myself overseas, I was quite a bit younger so it was certainly easier for me (in the medical sense) but at that time there was no question of any expectation of financial help and so, after fleeing from Charing Cross (this was in the Seventies), I just worked and worked and saved and scrimped and had everything done overseas. If you know your life depends on it, you take things in your own hands and do what needs to be done, you don’t waste your life suing the NHS. Cases like this do such a terrible disservice to trans people.

  14. Its interesting that men with gynecomastia (a condition that causes female-like breast growth) can get that sorted on the NHS and yet this woman has been denied treatment. The NHS concedes that man boobs = potential mental distress. Before I get people asking whether I agree with free boob jobs for all, the answers no. Small boobs wont cause the average non-trans women to be mistaken for a man, but it certainly could make the difference for a trans woman.

  15. That’s a fair point jane and although I’m not sure the cases do a disservice to trans people I can see the line of reasoning with the health budget cuts and the like. Also chutney strikes me as a truly disgusting, unfufilled individual and anyone that labels themselves a “bear” probably means, “fat, insecure and lonely”, traits that would carry over into a lot of the behaviour he seems to be displaying on these forums.

  16. Pumpkin Pie1 25 May 2010, 6:40pm

    THIS IS NOT surgery that will change anything other than the recipients appearance

    A) That’s the point.
    B) The same goes for reconstructive surgery after mastectomies, which the NHS gladly dole out to every woman who asks for it. Should they be denied it, too?

    Sex reassignment surgery is considered a necessity for the health of those who need it. Suicide rates for trans people are disturbingly high, gender dysphoria is not a pleasant thing to go through. This has all been legitimately documented by mental health professionals, which is why SRS is (mostly) funded by the NHS (when they aren’t trying to screw you out of any entitlements).

    The whole purpose of SRS is to allow trans people to live normal lives as their identified sex. This is what allows people to live healthy lives and not end up with crippling and potentially life-threatening mental health problems. In order for this to happen, they must be allowed to pass scrutiny as much as reasonably possible.

    Someone made the delightful point in the previous thread that, if the NHS is going to stop half-way, they might as well not have bothered, because that defeats the point. But that’s not how the NHS thinks. No, to them, everything’s just ticking boxes. To them, it doesn’t matter what the point of the procedure is, if they can get away with just doing x and y procedure, but not z, then they happily will.

    Hey, and don’t blame trans people for cancer. Smokers, and the self-centered asses who insisted on opposing the smoking ban, cost the NHS an infinitely larger sum than trans people ever could. Same goes for people who get injured due to their own recklessness. If you want to blame anybody, blame these people. And if the NHS is so single-mindedly interested in ending cancer, then I’m sure it could make a fair bit of cash by slashing the wages of its fat cat executives. They’d much rather go for softer targets, of course.

  17. I am not surprised by some of the comments on here as i have found gay people to be as discriminatory against trans people as any other sector of society. They quite clearly havent the slightest clue what it is to suffer gender dysphoria which is universally accepted as a medical condition. Trans people have to suffer from birth with this damned condition and its debilitating effects. You bang on about those with cancer etc not having access to proper medical care, well have you ever thought it might be self inflicted? Anyone who smokes, uses drugs, is alcoholic or clinically obese is deliberately endangering their own health so why bother treating them? They obviously want to die to let them get on with it. Then those who have medical condition they have no choice with get properly treated and get on with their lives.

  18. Dr Robin Guthrie 25 May 2010, 8:59pm

    Cancer is completely 100% non discriminatory.

    It hit’s Alcoholics, Homosexuals, Smokers, Non Smokers, Children, Babies and so called Healthy adults of whichever sexual state.

    And NO, sometimes they cannot get on with their lives as they are either dead, or a severe burden on those around them.

    And PS: Smokers pay more into the NHS in taxation than they ever take out of it.

    And they do not clog up the pensions system.

    Having worked with over 2500 people over my time in the NHS who have died due to cancer, not down to their own simplistic habits as you state, I believe that Visual appearance and mental Health state is supremely secondary to these individuals to being alive.

    States of sexual being such as Homosexuality and Gender Dysphoria, should not be equated with states of physical cellular decay and cellular destruction.

  19. I think Chutney Bear got it in a nutshell, and Dr Robin Guthrie succinctly reiterated the same facts in a somewhat more palatable way. If this was somebody DEMANDING a hair transplant on the NHS, they would be laughed off. That doesnt detract from the fact that many men find patent baldness extremely embarrasing, and it affects their lives, however, neither this, or breat implants are life-threatening, and as the NHS budgets continue to be hacked away, waiting lists continue to stretch and people *die* due to underfunding, I am afraid I have no sympathy with this lady.

    On top of this, it’s not a subject most doctors will agree to, but I think it nonetheless pertinent and realistic, why offer a service such as this to a person that has maybe less than 10 years life left. (However many may complain, this person is now a woman, but she is still a man when it comes to lifespan) – Its all about “bang for the buck” – Hospitals will not perform expensive treatments on elderly people, it’s simply not economic.

  20. theotherone 25 May 2010, 9:18pm

    SMC, commenting on another thread here, said (something like) ‘this site is a Mecca for people with ugly views.’

    This thread proves that.

  21. theotherone 25 May 2010, 9:22pm

    ‘Having worked with over 2500 people over my time in the NHS who have died due to cancer, not down to their own simplistic habits as you state, I believe that Visual appearance and mental Health state is supremely secondary to these individuals to being alive.’

    Dr, if you are a Doctor, you seem to be saying that some dis ease is more moral than other dis ease.

    How Victorian.

  22. theotherone 25 May 2010, 9:24pm

    ‘Most transsexuals do not support the court cases…’

    Not round my neck of the woods but then perhaps we’re not good Trannies.

  23. Lets give the smokers a medal for their unselfish devotion to the NHS and depleting the pension system, not. That justification is utter bollocks. Not only do they affect their own lives but those around them. b
    What is it about’ Smoking Kills’ dont they understand??? Those who chose to pollute their own bodies do have a higher probability of heart attacks, strokes, cancer and other long term medical problems. They are a major drain to the NHS, and the benefits system, over a far longer period of time and cost considerably more than the proper treatment of trans people. Trans people just want the surgery to treat their condition, get on with their lives and contribute to society. However bigots, even in the NHS, continually try and deprive us of even basic medical care. They’d far rather see us commit suicide, we have the highest incidences of suicide of any minority group, and keep those who contributed to their own poor health, alive.

  24. AKyth, quite right.

  25. Theotherone: So based on your opinion, would you agree that men should be allowed to have hair transplants on the NHS? Please tell me how many transexuals die due to not getting treatment?

    Kiruna: “Lets give the smokers a medal for their unselfish devotion to the NHS and depleting the pension system, not.”

    Please get your facts right before spouting this crap. Smokers currently donate over £10billion a year in duty and VAT. I would say that amply pays for any healthcare they need, and many other people besides. Please don’t use straw man arguments to prop up lame reasons why I and others should have to subsidise a heavily burdened health system with extra tax just to support what is essentially an entirely aesthetic operation. If anyone is selfish, it is you people. You will be wanting us to provide you with fu_king stillies next.

  26. I have to say im glad she lost, i am a trans women whos been living as a female for a year and to be honest the NHS treatment I have recieved is amazing. But i am saving for my own boob job out my wages i dont expect the nhs to pay for it and its only as a backup as my breasts are reacting to hormones, but if she really wants it save the money up.

  27. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 9:46am

    I must confess I don’t get the whole trans thing.

    Whilst I don’t have a problem with it I really don’t understand how people claiming to be in the wrong body can be so sure.

    What are their points of reference?

  28. You dont get the trans thing? Do you get the Gay,lesbian, bi thing? What is their point of reference? What proof do have for that?

    “Some evidence supports the idea that transsexualism is a
    neurodevelopmental condition during fetal growth. Several
    sexually dimorphic nuclei have been found in the hypothalamic
    area of the brain, particularly the sexually dimorphic limbic
    nucleus (the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria
    terminalis) that becomes fully matured in the human brain by
    early adulthood.
    Zhou et al found that the biological structure in the brains
    of male to female transsexual people had a totally female
    pattern that was not attributable to sex hormone therapy.Kruijver et al later found that regardless of sexual orientation,
    men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurones as
    women. These inhibit thyroid stimulating hormone and growth
    hormones in the hypothalamus. The number of neurones in
    male to female transsexual people was similar to that in women,
    whereas the number of neurones in female to male transsexual
    people was similar to that in men. This seems to support a
    neurobiological basis for gender identity disorder.”

    Source for the above? British Medical Journal Sept 2004.

  29. theotherone 26 May 2010, 11:10am

    ‘would you agree that men should be allowed to have hair transplants’

    If anything causes real, deep emotional distress it’s rectified and paid for by the NHS: not embarrassment but real emotional distress.

    The only group this does not apply to is Trannies. Perhaps we should suffer more than any other group.

    Lyndz: bully for you but not everyone can afford to do that. I take it that Medical Interventions should be dictated by the size of your purse?

    And lastly rex: I’m the wrong person to ask, I never claimed to be ‘trapped inside the wrong body’ and instead argued that I was not comfortable with a Male Body or Identity. Indeed I do not think of myself as ‘female’ (or try not to as there are massive Philosophical problems with doing so.) Perhaps a more traditionally minded person could answer your particular question – unless you would like me to explain my own position?

  30. theotherone 26 May 2010, 11:14am

    Kiruna: I’ve never been totally comfortable with that and I believe there’s still quite some debate on it.

  31. Last year, the NHS spent approx £1,000,000 on the treatment of transsexual patients. Each SRS procedure (the lower bits) costs approx £10,000. Each year in the UK, 30,000 break their hip needing a replacement at a cost of £5,000 per hip – total yearly cost £150,000,000 and that’s just on hip ops, so I think arguing over one million pounds in a budget of billions, is petty in the extreme.

    As for cancer patients, if you’ve smoked, tough, you caused your own problem, if not, then you should be treated.

    Also, if we’re now only going to treat and fund “life threatening situations”, then close down all the NHS maternity wards for people who “chose” to get pregnant, that way I can save up my money from the taxes I won’t be paying for any surgeries I might need / want in the future.

  32. Kiruna – being a man who prefers sexual relations with men is my reference point for being gay. It is something I can observe and do therefore easy to understand.

    Taking the example of an M2F trans person, what is it that makes them sure they are female. It can’t be that they prefer female clothing, or wearing make up can it?

    If the are simply attracted to the role that women play in British (for the sake of an example) society then that is more like a lifestyle choice?

    Theotherone – I undersand perfectly what you are saying and in a sense that is where I am coming from.

  33. Lyndz, cissexual women are given boobs on the nhs all the time. the fact they refuse a trans woman indicates discrimination.

  34. Sarah: “As for cancer patients, if you’ve smoked, tough, you caused your own problem, if not, then you should be treated.”

    So by the same token, the NHS should not treat morbidly obese people because they chose to not walk past the cake shop, or the alcoholic suffering liver cirrhosis because they went in a pub?

    You cannot moralise on the reasons why or how somebody gets in these situations, but equally, you have to balance out who gets the priority treatment. Life threatening situations are always going to take precedence over palliative care, and I’m sure even you would not want to be a cancer sufferer having to wait for treatment because some transexual was getting a boob job.

  35. vulpus_rex, do you know what gender you are without thinking about your genitals? if the answers yes, then transpeople know what gender they are the same way- by thinking. if the answers no id suggest youv not done much thinking on the subject because your brain and body match up and so there was no need.

  36. Xaria, I wasn’t saying that smokers who get cancer shouldn’t be treated, but I was saying that some people here we’re saying that trans people shouldn’t be treated as it’s not life threatening, that it’s somehow our choice, and I was comparing that to someone who put their own health at risk by smoking. The NHS should be free of morals as you say, the only rule should be “do you need this, will it make your life better?”

  37. theotherone 26 May 2010, 12:44pm

    I think Xaria has a point rex – if you’ve never thought this way then you can’t (sort of.)

    For some it may be about Gender Roles but for most it’s…well it’s beyond language really, a knowing that outward signs of Gender (genitals included) is only a part of.

  38. Having large breasts is not a sign of femininity.

    I think the transwoman who has taken this case is in fact a misogynist.

    On a previous report about this story she was quoted as saying her flat chest made her feel ‘half man and half woman’.

    That is so disgustingly offensive to the millions of flat chested women out there. She was equating having a flat chest with being a man.

    I am glad her request was rejected. She’s a woman now – time to get used to being a flat chested woman.

  39. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 1:05pm

    Xaria – You may be right but your argument is predicated on a there being a difference between Gender and Sex.

    I am not convinced that there is, but even if for the sake of discussion there is, there must be some essential quality that allows one to define ones gender, it can’t just be instinctive.

  40. MartinM, breasts for a woman are an important thing. She may be a larger person, like me, and therefore needs the extra help that implants give. I had implants a few years ago, and it made a big difference to not only how I’m percieved, but to my self confidence.

    A flat chested woman, still has the knowledge that she was born with all the “right features”, yet all trans-people have to go through what is essentially, a second puberty.

    I am so sick of people commenting on things they have absolutely no knowledge of, the same people who make the kinds of comments I would expect from Sun journalists, who then complain when those same journalists make a homophobic comment.

    As for comments regarding us paying for treatment ourselves, we’ve had to for years because of bigotry and ignorance over the subject, and not all of us can get well enough paying jobs to pay our regular expenses, never mind expensives medical bills. We all contribute to the NHS, and we should all receive the relevant treatments as and when we need them.

  41. Taking the example of an M2F trans person, what is it that makes them sure they are female. It can’t be that they prefer female clothing, or wearing make up can it?

    If the are simply attracted to the role that women play in British (for the sake of an example) society then that is more like a lifestyle choice?
    Comment by vulpus_rex — May 26, 2010
    If trans is a lifestyle choice then so is being gay!!!
    Yes I enjoy dressing in womens clothes to emulate the gender I want to be, Yes I want to emulate a womans role in society. The feelings come from deep within and can only be dealt with by expressing myself as the opposite gender, its part of my being, I grew up in a religious and rural setting. I had no role models or influence yet I still “acquired” womans clothes to dress in to make me look female. What drove me to do that when no one else even spoke of such things never mind did it? Because it’s already part of me.
    In the same way being Gay is part of your being and you deal with it by having relationships with people of the same gender. Being gay is far easier than being a M2F transsexual. You can hide your sexuality, I sometimes feel like I have a bloody great beacon on my head telling everyone that I’m different, I would gladly have my anonimity and family back by being normal. I have NOT made a lifestyle choice!!
    Going back to the main subject, where can you get boob jobs for £2,300? I have been quoted over £4,000 for augmentation. Plus I have put nearly £10K of my own money towards procedures, so I don’t expect the NHS to pay for everything….

  42. Transsexuality is a proven medical condition, just look at Dept of Health documents. Its about the brain sex being at odds with the birth sex. In a MTF TS their brain is the same as a genetic female. Therefore a male body is alien to them and they know this from a very young age. They need major surgery to get their bodies as close to a genetic female as possible, why wouldnt they? Is it that difficult to understand? Transsexuals are human being and tax payers. We have every right to have our medical treatment fully funded by the NHS as it is not a condition of choice. Everybody should get medical care but if push comes to shove then those who deliberately jeopardise their own health should be at the back of the queue.

    As for some of the comments on here, well the ignorancen about transsexuality beggars belief.

  43. Again, a debate about whether transgenderism can be proven beyond doubt to exist on a physiological level. Does it matter? If science can’t find the exact root of a problem the NHS still have an ethical obligation to treat the symptoms. In this case I think they have stopped short of the goal.

  44. theotherone 26 May 2010, 1:59pm

    ‘Having large breasts is not a sign of femininity.’

    and MartinM: why said she was after ‘large breasts?’

    Would you say to a woman wearing a padded bra that she was Misogynistic or is that saved for Trannies? You’re the one with a problem my friend, not us.

  45. Sarah: “The NHS should be free of morals as you say, the only rule should be “Do you need this, will it make your life better?”"

    The NHS are not here to make you “feel better”.
    What they should be asking is “Do you need this? Will you die if we don’t treat you?”

    My father suffers from sciatica, and has had a number of treatments that have failed, and he is in constant abject agony with his hip. They won’t operate on him because he is too old, and it is economically impractical. The NHS only has a finite amount of money, so it must be spent where it has the most effect, for the greatest number of patients.

    AKyth: “If science can’t find the exact root of a problem the NHS still have an ethical obligation to treat the symptoms.”

    So do what most other flat-chested women do, get on with their damn lives, stop moaning and buy a padded bra.

  46. theotherone 26 May 2010, 2:30pm

    rob-N: women with small breasts who suffer psychological distress because of this can get treatment on the NHS but Trannies cant. Isn’t that discrimination?

  47. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 3:02pm

    “If trans is a lifestyle choice then so is being gay!!!”

    Not really, in fact not at all.

    I am a man and I want sex with other men, that is how I know I am a gay man. I don’t have to act on it, but the urge is there, that is not a choice.

    Wanting to wear women’s clothing and participate in society as a woman don’t make you female, the make you a man wanting to do these things. There is nothing intrinsicly female about wearing a dress – it is a social convention surely?

  48. OrtharRrith 26 May 2010, 3:08pm

    “Taking the example of an M2F trans person, what is it that makes them sure they are female. It can’t be that they prefer female clothing, or wearing make up can it?

    If the are simply attracted to the role that women play in British (for the sake of an example) society then that is more like a lifestyle choice?
    Comment by vulpus_rex — May 26, 2010″

    How do YOU know you are male? And I’m not talking about you simply having a dick. You KNOW you are male inside, your brain confirms that, and what’s inside you and how you feel about yourself matches the outside and the way that the world sees you. But what if it didn’t?
    What if inside you felt at odds with your outward appearance? So much so that you couldn’t cope with people addressing you the way you appear to them. Imagine that you’d felt that way all your life. IF you can do that, and I doubt you truely can (I’m not having a go at YOU, I’m simply saying that it’s hard to REALLY understand unless you are transsexual) then you might just get a little insite into how transsexuals actually feel, and why we are so sure.
    Think of it this way – it’s something you SHOULD be able to imagine and it’s a little bit similar – what if someone told you you weren’t gay? What if you were made to be with women instead of men? You know you are gay but what if people doubted you, even denied and ridiculed you?. THAT’s a little snippet of what transsexuals have to live with.
    Being transsexual IS NOT a lifestyle choice, infact there’s no choice involved at all (yes there’s a choice to pursue surgury but not to be transsexual). A person is born that way, not made.

    I understand what “C” is going through. She’s struggling to appear more female, to be easily accepted as such. Having breast is a visible sign of being female and being flat chested will mean her confidence is shot. I’ve not had that problem, I was young when I transitioned and reacted very well to the hormones, but many transsexual women don’t. That’s why she wants breasts, and I don’t blame her.
    Should the NHS pay for it? that’s more complicated. They should be willing to help at least. For her, the transition is not over and her mental anguish is very clear. Should she pay for it herself? Bare in mind that she may not be able to. Many transpeople can’t afford to pay for themselves due to the difficulities of finding work – it’s still common enough to be discriminated against, particularly if the transperson hasn’t yet undergone surgury or aquired a Gender Recognition Certificate and change of birth certificate. So in those instances people are forced to approach the NHS. Additionally as has already been noted, a woman that has a mastectomy can often recieve reconstructive surgury on the NHS. Yet said surgury is not for a life threatening condition (that was what the mastectomy was for). So in that instance why do it? Why doesn’t the woman in question simply live with it? (and yes I know that some do)

  49. vulpus_rex, if gender and sex were the same thing there would be no transsexuals.

    martinm, transwomen need large breasts more than ciswomen simply to help them be accepted as women. transwomen are fighting against the effects of testosterone (the height, the bredth, adams apple, large hands etc) and have more need of obvious female signs or theyll be seen as trans or worse- men instead of women. and on top of that you have the societal pressure of ‘big boobs=good’

  50. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 4:08pm

    “vulpus_rex, if gender and sex were the same thing there would be no transsexuals”

    I won’t disagree, but I understand gender to be an entirely socially constructed mechanism for describing the roles of the sexes.

    I guess my point is that no-one is born with a desire to behave or operate in a socially constructed way, they observe it and learn it – gender is therefore an acquired characteristic.

    If the problem is that Gender and Sex don’t match, why focus on changing the sex to match the gender and not the other way round?

  51. vulpus_rex: If there was a tried and tested treatment to change gender identity to match the body, people would be using it. As far as I know there have been no cases of psychiatric help ‘curing’ gender identity disorder.

  52. OrtharRrith 26 May 2010, 4:37pm

    “If the problem is that Gender and Sex don’t match, why focus on changing the sex to match the gender and not the other way round?”

    That sounds very much like the “cure” for gays approach. What if someone said you are not gay and tried to make it so you only liked women? It’s the same thing.
    I don’t want to be a man, I never did; so why should someone make me become one? I’m not mentally ill and suffering from a delusion, nor was I taught to be effeminate. I felt this way all my life – for as long as I can remember at any rate. Now that my body is female I am happy, one with myself if you like; and am a productive, outgoing member of society – things I certainly wasn’t before I accepted who and what I am and transitioned.
    I hope that helps you understand a little more.

  53. Jean-Paul Bentham 26 May 2010, 5:05pm

    I wonder how big they’ll be when she finally gets them? *Drool*. Seriously though, transphobia on this site is as rampant and dangerous as Vanessa Felch…sorry Feltz is to black men at the Notting Hill Carnival. This trans patient’s ‘uman rights are being violated all cause she wants a decent set and can’t afford to stimmy up the greenbacks to pay for it. The noted feminist and female to male theorist Willy Onandoff in his essay “Get Your Tits Off For the Lads” says the following “a patriarchal society views and considers the female gender by form only, a good set of tits will get you turning heads rather than stomachs in the boardroom and in the 10 Items Or Less Queue at Asda” and I agree with Willy, but then I would, Willy for breakfast, Willy for lunch and when the missus is at work willy for tea!

  54. Vulpus_rex, this may be useful, it’s very brief and Gender Trust is a good place to gain some understanding of transexualism:

    http://www.gendertrust.org.uk/n2/docs/gt_is03.pdf

  55. Vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 5:22pm

    Cheers for that Jane, but I’ve better things to be doing with my time than reading some piece of throwaway quotable by an unnotable or some pontificating lezzer.

  56. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 5:22pm

    @52 I am glad you are happy, and by no means begrudge anyone the right to live in whatever identity they chose, however I don’t think the two are comparable. One doesn’t learn to be gay in the same way that one developes a gender through observation of social convention (in most cases).

    Thanks for trying, though I still don’t get it all!

  57. Well, if you’re not interested in finding out the facts about something you’ve been regularly giving your “knowledgeable opinion” on, well don’t bother but do stop giving us the “benefit” of your ignorance and stop wasting everyone else’s time as well as your own.

  58. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 5:49pm

    Who’s time am I wasting? You gobby slattern. I have as much right to posting my opinion on here as you do. There’s nothing worse than some frustrated bint putting links on a message that we’re all meant to read, from your own opinions instead of swallowing the ideas of everyone else. Use your brain if you have one. Or was that also surgically removed when you went from he to she?

  59. OrtharRrith 26 May 2010, 5:54pm

    “One doesn’t learn to be gay in the same way that one developes a gender through observation of social convention (in most cases)”

    So you are saying I, and those like me; learned to be transsexual? That I chose to become transsexual? If you are then you are wrong. I didn’t learn to be this way any more then you learned to be gay.
    Yes, people learn parts of what is involved with being male or female from those around them but that’s not the be all and end all of gender identity. I didn’t have anyone teaching me to be female, hinting at it. Nor was I raised solely by my mother, there-by learning all I know from her and then wanting to emmulate her or any other female.
    I didn’t learn to be trans, nor did I choose it. I fought it, we all do; but it’s a part of who we are.

    “I’ve better things to be doing with my time than reading some piece of throwaway quotable by an unnotable or some pontificating lezzer.”

    I’m curious, if you aren’t willing to read something that explains a little about Transpeople and might help you understand, then why comment in the way you have?

  60. VR, message 58.

    Oh dear, upset are we?

  61. Damian @ GenderShift 26 May 2010, 6:27pm

    The comments made above do somewhat alarm me. As the head of Policy and Research for GenderShift, we have been advocating strongly in support of this case, and many others. Comments made which say that it is not life threatening surgery do not understand the nature of Gender Dysphoria and its complexities. A person’s physical appearance has a significant effect on their psychological wellbeing. Imagine if you will, if your body did not match your minds gender? For trans-women, the lack of feminisation options relating to breast surgery/intervention means that they are more likely to suffer transphobic harassment in the street/public because their physical appearance does not match the societal perceptions. There is an inextricable link between this and levels of depression, social isolation and suicide.

    To those who merely comment, “it’s just tits for blokes” I would recommend you attend a Trans Awareness Workshop in your area!

  62. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 6:35pm

    Trans Awareness Programme? I went to one of those once, turns out you can’t get digital TV on a cheap Lidl knock-off television set. “Panaphonic” my ass. Thanks for the heads up mind Damian

  63. Pumpkin Pie1 26 May 2010, 7:24pm

    Those believing that transsexuals are just pretending would do well to read up on the case of David Reimer on Wikipedia. The interesting thing about this case is that David was not transsexual, but was forced to go through the same thing transsexuals go through. He was born male, but had his penis destroyed in a botched circumcision. Thus, it was decided by infamous quack, Dr. John Money, that he should be brought up as a girl instead. David had a miserable childhood and never fitted in with the other girls, despite being brought up as one. His real sex was kept a secret from him, and on finding out during his teens, he was horrified and began trying to transition back. He eventually committed suicide at 38 years of age, after a life of depression, estrangement from his parents, and the earlier suicide of his twin brother who had ended up practically schizophrenic after he found out what had been done to David.

    It sounds horrific and deeply unsettling in the context of a cisgendered boy being forced to go through this, doesn’t it? That’s how it is for trans people, too.

    Just like with sexuality, it is absolutely not a case of nurture. I wish I had twin studies to hand, but suffice to say, siblings who have been brought up the exact same way won’t change one of them being trans but not the other.

    Arguing against the notion that transsexuality is just about people wanting to take on societal roles is a bit harder. However, to believe such a thing, you must also believe that there is no intrinsic difference in the way men and women think. If boys and girls were brought up the same, would they act the same as each other? As far as I’m aware, there aren’t any studies to back up such a notion. Studies of intersexed people throw another wrench into that concept by having just as clear a sense of gender as most of us uni-sexed people. And again, we’ve got the whole issue of it being objectively provable that men and women’s brians function differently, and that trans peoples brain patterns match those of the gender they are “claiming” to be. Sure, if we lived in a totally undifferentiated society, transsexuals might not feel the need to transition. But we don’t. Because men and women are intrinsically different.

    Lastly, as for the whole “life-saving treatment only” issue, gender dysphoria is potentially life threatening. We’ve been over that already. That’s why SRS is (mostly) free. It IS seen as necessary. And, there’s also the small matter of the figures Sarah quoted. There is a minute amount of trans people in this country. Their treatment barely even costs the NHS anything. In terms of weighing up cost versus benefit for health, this is an absolute no-brainer.

  64. Pumpkin Pie1 26 May 2010, 7:27pm

    men and women’s brians

    :D

  65. Pumpkin Pie, this might lighten up this thread:

  66. @53 Jean-Paul Bentham:

    You know very well that you are using a name I discarded two weeks ago.

    Your writing style, vocabulary and basic attitude certainly have nothing in common with me, but go ahead and have fun while you can.

    In the meantime, each of the comments you post in my name is being reported, and you are being seen for what you really are.

  67. vulpus_rex 26 May 2010, 8:57pm

    @66 I’m having the same problem. Comments 58 & 62 are nothing to do with me.

  68. Vr, I am so disappointed that message #58 is not from you.
    To whoever did send it, thank you, I just loved
    being called a “gobby slattern”. Next time,
    don’t forget “slatternly hoyden”
    or “sluttish strumpet”………….

  69. vulpus_rex – you really are an ignorant, bigoted and small minded little twat aren’t you? You’re a gay man, so therefore you like to take it up the arse, or go up the poop shoot right? Now that I’ve hopefully offended you, I’ll apologise to anyone other than you that might have been offended by that, but I just made stereotypical comments about gay men that are both bigoted and ignorant, just like you’ve been doing with regard to trans-people for this entire section.

    I didn’t learn to be female either. I did what came naturally to me till someone pointed out that I shouldn’t be doing that, I’m guessing you didn’t learn to be gay either, you just came to the realization that you like men instead of women. I always knew I liked girls, it wasn’t till my early teens that I realised that I should have been born a girl, but you tend to go happily on your way till a problem comes along that you have to deal with.

    Do you think any of us would choose to be transsexual? There are so many idiots in this world that make life hell for people that are differnt to the “norm”, or are you just picking on another section of the LGBT community to make up for something lacking in yourself?

    Go and bother someone else you inconsiderate little fairy.

  70. Sarah @69 – not sure how to deal with that comment.

    On the one hand you sound like a stupid, bitter, ill informed old bag who can’t deal with legitimate discussion on the topic at hand, and then on the other hand you still sound like a massive, stupid, bitter, ill informed old bag who can’t deal with legitimate questioning from a different point of view.

    Now that I have offended you I’ll apologise to anyone other than you that doesn’t think spitting out insults is a substitute for an answer.

    Thanks for taking this down to the gutter.

  71. @70:

    You’re right; you sound much more like you @70 than @ 58 & 62.

    Why not report it; I did.

  72. ‘If the problem is that Gender and Sex don’t match, why focus on changing the sex to match the gender and not the other way round?’

    because the person IS the brain, the body is the container. the brain is by far more important than the body. you might as well refuse to give prosthetics to people missing limbs and try to make them accept their limbless state instead.

    you refuse to see transsexuality as any kind of a medical condition, you seem to believe you understand it better than sufferers. your transphobic.

  73. Most informative, educational thread.

    It’s as clear an explanation of transgenders as I’ve ever read.

  74. Mihangel apYrs 27 May 2010, 7:08am

    just musing now, so don’t jump all over me: Xaria said the person is the brain, and the body the container, a very good explanation. This leads to the question, why got oso much effort o change the container? Is it because of societal expectations? If we lived in a society that valued each person as an individual rather than pigeon-holing them, would a trans person still want all the hormone treatment and reconstructive surgery, or would they be happy to live in their preferred gender without it? Does a penis, in and of itself, cause the distress, or is it the expectations that go with it?

    This is something of a philosophical point since our society is judgemental and stereotyping, as well as inately sexist, mysogynist, and scared of anyone “not the norm”, but I would be interested to hear opinions

  75. I am really at a loss as to why so many people , including LGB people, refuse to accept that transsexuality is a medical condition and see it as a lifestyle choice. That is especially rich from the LGB community who have spent years saying their sexual preferences are not a lifestyle choice. There is no medical evidence as to why people are LGB, why they choose one sex or the other for sexual intercourse yet there is plenty evidence that transsexuality is caused in the first 12 weeks after conception due to hormonal problems.
    Lets see if i can make this any easier for the gay community to comprehend, despite the utter ignorance shown by many on this thread. You are a gay man, you enjoy lots of rampant gay sex with as many men as possible. You enjoy having a penis and using it as often as possible during the 24 hours in a day. (Stereotypical? you bet but hey some of you have lowered yourself to mentioning the stereotypical view of trans women usually from a gay perspective). So now we have established this stereotype then how would you cope if you have these feelings coursing through your brain every day yet you are in a female body? You know you want a penis, you know you are really a male, you want gay sex (not hetro sex) yet you are the prisoner of a female body. You know you are really male from the age of 4, yet everytime you show male tendencies you get reprimanded, physically and verbally. You grow older, you hit puberty and you start periods, breasts grow yet you still see yourself as a gay male , needing a penis, sex with other men.

    Now before you start venting your spleens and attacking my post how about accepting this little challenge. Go away, think about this all day, think about being a gay male in a female body. Think of the guilt you feel for feeling this way, think about the feelings of being a prisoner in a female body, think of the distress you will feel with having periods. Think , Think, think. Maybe then you will have a miniscule idea of what it is to be a transsexual.

  76. Kiruna, I think many gay men feel a sense of offence that MtF transsexuals are repulsed by the thought of having to go through life with a penis. The possession of that organ is so prized by gay men, after all it is essential to their self-definition and self-esteem and to those of their potential sexual partners. A MtF transsexual places herself beyond and away from that spectrum of gayness, perhaps a further affront to that prized male gay sexuality. If any of those gay men who post such stupid posts on here were at all interested in understanding transsexualism, there are abundant reference sources; however, I’ve concluded they aren’t at all interested, most of them, thus their resorting every time to insults and puerile inanities. I wouldn’t bother even attempting to educate them. For any sensible discussion of trans issues, “Pink News”, a gay organ (excuse me!), is not the place.

  77. OrtharRrith 27 May 2010, 12:08pm

    “If we lived in a society that valued each person as an individual rather than pigeon-holing them, would a trans person still want all the hormone treatment and reconstructive surgery, or would they be happy to live in their preferred gender without it?”

    Yes I would still have wanted the surgery and hormones I recieved. Why? Because it’s not society, it’s me. Allow me to explain, and in doing so it may help clear up where some here are getting confused.
    I am transsexual – in the most basic sense, someone who has felt they were the opposite sex trapped in the wrong gender – I was born and identified by the docter as being male. Later I transitioned to become female. With me so far? The desire to be female (or male in the case of F2M transsexuals) is all consuming. The surgery side of being transsexual is often dependant upon the cost, availability and weather or not the person can actually have surgery or hormones (other non-related medical conditions may make it dangerous to do so)
    There are also Genderqueere people – again in the most basic sense, people who feel they don’t fit in either gender or are beyond it – these people are also refurred to as being third sex and Androgyne. Some will be androgonous in appearance, whilst others will be switching between genders or a combination of the two recognised genders. How we doing? Still following? Good.
    Then there’s transvestites – normally straight men who crossdress for periods, for one reason or another.

    Of-course there’s actually more then that, much more; including those who are Intersexed but regardless everything is then covered by the umbrella term “Transgender”. When someone refurs to themselves as Transgender they could also be saying that they are transvestite, or transsexual etc.
    Why am I telling you all this? To try to help you understand that a Transsexual like myself, like “C” etc, doesn’t want to be accepted with the body we were born with – that would make us Cisgendered (someone, such as yourselves, who has no transgender feelings at all), nor do we want society to accept us without the need for surgery so that “we can live with a penis”, even if it’s hidden and out of the way (as opposed to placed in the lingerie draw and brought out when needed ;) ) Being transsexual means WE want to be the opposite gender to that which we were identified at birth. It’s got little or nothing to do with expectations. I passed as female before I had surgery – infact every transsexual woman is required to spend some time living as a woman before any surgury or hormones is given – the surgery I had wasn’t for the world, it wasn’t for a loved one, or so that I’d be accepted better by a world that only really understands Boy and Girl; it was for me – so that I was happy being complete, so that I could live my life and be myself after so many years.
    Does THAT help you understand Transsexuals (remember the differrence I wrote earlier?) a little bit better?

  78. Mihangel apYrs 27 May 2010, 10:00pm

    thank you OrtharRith, I honstly wasn’t being awkward, I was just trying to understand the imperatives, whether they were personal for oneself, or a means to pass in societal norms. I know that as a gay man I want sex with men with all my “bits” rather than as a woman, but transism is an unknown country for those of us who aren’t, and our education in this is as lacking as gay info was twenty years ago: what appears to be not a big deal and a hissy fit to us, obviously isn’t!

    Most of us are trying, and sometimes failing; keep on trying with us

  79. Mihangel, this is a good site for information on transsexualism:

    http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html#anchor322586

  80. OrtharRrith 28 May 2010, 11:19am

    @ Mihangel apYrs.
    I understand and accept that. It’s foolish to think that every gay and lesbian is aware of, and understands the wherefores and why’s of transsexualism or transgenderism as a whole. In that the gay community is no different to the world at large, in that if you haven’t encountered it through personal experiance or that of a friend then why would you know? It’s clear as day that the gay community is much like the reast of the world in that it can contain those that are supportive, those who don’t understand and of-course those who are transphobic.
    Yes there’s the T in LGBT but, really unless it effects you or someone you know; people tend to be supportive but not really know any of the details. I chose to believe that most people are unaware of the facts and simply need to be told the truth – not the hearsay, roumer and utter bollocks that the press and television spout.
    So with that in mind I am very happy to help educate, along with the others here.
    If a transperson gets upset over a comment then please understand that we’ve had to fight our whole lives to be who we are, that for many of us even after transition we STILL have to fight to be accepted or even simply tolerated. Gay men and women can blend in with the rest of the world (for the most part), where as many transpeople can not. This means we are often ridiculed, ingnored, verbally and even physically abused and short of staying hidden in our homes we CAN’T hide from it. This can make those of us who aren’t afraid to stand up, quick to defend ourselves from attack, be it genuine or simply ignorance.
    I’m not apologising for those of us who some have called gobby etc, rather trying to educate you as to why we can be the way we are (and yes I’m well aware that tone, humour and sarcasm etc don’t come over well online). I hope you understand.
    And please, please accept that we really ARE the experts on transsexualism and/or transgenderism! We’ve lived it. Are STILL living it! If you want to know about theoretical physics you can look it up in a book or online, or you can go and ask Stephen Hawking – transpeople are the equivilant of asking Professor Hawking! Whilst I’m happy to help enlighten anyone who is genually interested in trying to comprehend who I am and why I have done the things I’ve done. I’m not interested in arguing with anyone who thinks I’m a delusional freak with a form of body dysmorphic disorder and who won’t take the time to listen.

  81. I am a male to female transsexual and the journey that we take to become complete is far from an easy road and certainly is not a path anyone would take on a whim. I was not conditioned to be transgender i was made this way from the very moment i was concieved and developed in my mothers womb. There are a number of forms of transgenderism a genetic male is XY a genetic female XX but nature doesnt always conform to the norm i dare say if it did then there would be no life on earth after all we all evolved through natures trials and errors; so what of those who`s genes are XXY OR XXXY ect? It is sad to read these comments. “a community that cant stand together will fall together!!” in relation to the main subject of this thread i want to say if it wasnt for the NHS and my psychologists and the trans support groups and our own transgender community and the PCT that i come under been so Professional then i would have been a suicide statistic infact i made several attempts on my own life to end the misery i was living in. It does sadden me that people find it hard to gain funding for hip replacements or help/funding for potentially life saving cancer treatments but something to think about “”I AM TRANSGENDER!! & i have raised THOUSANDS of pounds for some of those very people and charitys that need there treatments”" I am usefull to society and have every right to request help and treatment for my condition as you have yours. What some of you fail to realise is one day in your futures you or your children or a member of your family will require assistance from the NHS, how would you feel if i was on that very PCT and said NO!

    Miss A Henderson.

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