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Exclusive: International development minister Alan Duncan promises ‘urgent representations’ to Malawi

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  1. …….empty words. blah blah blah. cant help, wont help. blah blah blah. you give us tax money. blah blah blah. and we will give some of it to a homophobic regime. blah blah blah. and there’s nothing you can do about it. blah blah blah. empty empty words. blah blah blah. we’ll try and stop it for you. blah blah blah. well not really. blah blah blah. what a crock of sh1t. blah blah blah. just pretend we’re helping and we’ll get away with it. blah blah blah. ive got a job for five years anyway. blah blah blah. we drop bombs as political weapons in other countries but we can’t use aid as a political weapon. blah blah blah. got to help the victims. blah blah blah. who gives a sh1t about two homos anyway, they’re not victims. blah blah blah. we are so morally upright. blah blah blah. that we’ll let a whole group of people be persecuted. blah blah blah.

  2. theotherone 20 May 2010, 5:38pm

    What would you rather people starve? Sanctions hurt the poor not those in power.

  3. If we hadn’t colonised so much of the world and imported our past bigotry and homophobia, as well as our evil state cult, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In many of those former colonies, homosexuality wasn’t illegal until we came along and made it so. The first thing Duncan can do is boot out any commonwealth member who violates human rights and cut off aid altogether. But of course, he won’t.

  4. theotherone 20 May 2010, 5:43pm

    Why are people here so eager to use starvation as a political tool? I expected more of you lot I really did.

  5. Mihangel apYrs 20 May 2010, 5:52pm

    theotherone: because it will focus minds: the people screaming outside the court weren’t the powerful, they were the general population.

    Point:

    these two men will probably die well before the end of their sentences, either through desease, injury, or violence – the have effectively received a death sentence. Why should we support such a regime? If NGOs with proven credentials need help, then give it, but not to the govt.

  6. theotherone 20 May 2010, 5:59pm

    Regardless of the regime Sanctions don’t work, behind the scenes pressure does – a little ‘smarten up and you’ll get more money/ a nice damn ect, ect.’

    Yes these men have been effectively given a death sentence but two wrongs don’t make a right.

  7. As a lontime gay resident in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, now a refugee in UK, my country of birth, I can assure Jay 6pac that cutting aid will be of no benefit to Malawians of any sexuality. The misguided Blair policy against Mugabe has had no effect on him or the ruling elite but caused many deaths and brought that once successful economey to it’s knees. Is that what you want for Malawi? Use you brain before you blah blah blah rubbish.

  8. theotherone 20 May 2010, 6:06pm

    thankyou for your comment rayal.

    Have you been granted leave to stay here?

  9. Ladyfriend 20 May 2010, 7:23pm

    oh that’ll help, won’t it. a man in a suit is going to complain through diplomatic channels.

  10. AlbiMangles 20 May 2010, 7:32pm

    This is not a gay couple its a transgender woman and her partner. The international media have been misreporting this case, maybe PinkNews could get it right.

  11. Silent Bob 20 May 2010, 7:51pm

    I would rather my tax payer money was spent in another poor country, saving lives of people who do not want to imprison/kill gay people. There are more people to help than we can help. So we can choose to help those that are most deserving.

  12. I’d rather the homophobic sh1theads starve than get one penny of my money. I couldn’t give a toss about a load of homophobic malawians who want to see me dead. Can’t believe I gave a hundred quid to live aid. Can you get your money back from that thing?

  13. theotherone: cutting off aid to a country that fails to honor its obligation to protect the human rights of its citizens is not using starvation is not as a political tool. It is refusing to reward bad behavior. We are not forcing the Malawians to starve. They have made a choice that punishing gay people is more important to their culture than recognizing international standards. Why should our taxes support this regime?

  14. Why not just drop a few bombs on Malawi? That’ll kill enough of them to get the message through and is much quicker and more efficient than withdrawing aid and watching the population starve until they adopt our principles.

    It worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

    No I don’t think so either, so a bit of diplomacy seems like the best way forward without resorting to knee jerk punishments for the most vulnerable Malawians.

  15. Sister Mary Clarance 20 May 2010, 10:41pm

    Jay 6pac so these people are sh1theads for being born and raised in a country where bigotry and small mindedness are rife are they?

    You want them to show compassion and understanding to their fellow man and if they don’t we’ll starve them to death.

    Clearly Lord Carrington you ain’t mate.

    Its is the threat of sanctions that will lever change. The possibility of less favourable treatment in the futile – not the immediate denial of food and medical supplies, that will lead to certain death for many (possibly a few of who may be gay also – as gay seems to be the only variable in your equation).

  16. wtf are some of you people going on about. If they want 80 million pounds from us, they do as we say. If they want to live life as they see fit, they can pay for their own homophobia. Maybe if life is so bad there they shouldn’t be spending money putting people in prison cause they’re gay. Maybe if they are all starving then the leaders should think about their citizens food and if a country wants to give them 80 million a year they should adopt some of the international ideas about equality. It’s pathetic that an out gay man can say he supports giving aid to a country who, if he were living there, would get 14 years in hard labour.
    And vulpus, when exactly has diplomacy ever worked?

  17. BrazilBoysBlog 20 May 2010, 10:51pm

    I agree with aid-sanctions in this case. If this was just persecution by the ruling elite, then sanctions would be wrong and would only punish the average citizens… However it IS the ´average citizens´ who are homophobic! ….so we should pay to feed them why exactly?

    Let some hunger help to focus minds on what is important and what is right. Perhaps there might be a growing realization that they have important issue to think about… like what their own constitution actually says and means? Like the fact that they cannot persecute others whilst expecting the rest of the world to pay for it!

  18. Perhaps the Government should get some of the evangelical churches to cough up for the disaster and crimes against humanity they have created through their ongoing anti-gay indoctrination programmes in poor countries.

  19. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:06am

    perhaps – now this is just a suggestion mind (pardon the pun) – we should do like brain scans or something so we can work out what people think right? And if they think any differently from us/ me they should be killed right? It would make everything so simple wouldn’t it?

    I suport the use of Diplomacy in this case and that’s, to be honest, all I have to say on the matter. I have set forth my case (a mixture of Humanitarianism and realpolitik) and some people would rather wipe out others they don’t agree with.

  20. Mr. Duncan, thank you, but Malawi has failed “to face up to its international and domestic obligations”. Now what??

    Still, I’ve been involved with NGO’s long enough to know that international aid does stick to the fingers of government officials (who live like princes).

    Frankly, I’m glad to see that we are reacting normally to this outrageous turn of events, and questioning ourselves seriously as to what can be done.

    It has been reported that this conviction is basically unconstitutional. What does that mean, exactly??

    Does it mean that lawyers can appeal to a higher court in Malawi??

    If the law in Malawi can be applied in such way as to be unconstitutional – not to mention the international treaties enforcing human rights for all – then either the law or the Constitution must be changed. Am I making sense??

    Also, the condemned (innocent) couple would face a deadly mob if they were released.

    Personally, I share the opinion of those who understand the obnoxious influence of extreme right-wing American religious nutters who have been fanning the flames of emotional fanaticism in Africa for quite some time, and not only in Malawi.

    Moreover, the RCC’s failure – and it is a massive failure – to nurture Xtian values in favor of protecting its own pathological interpretation of god’s will for our times stinks to high heaven.

    So my own suggestion is to continue expressing our shock and our digust…that is the least we can do.

    As for me, I am focusing on this freedom that religions have to incite hatred and violence, and speaking to my MP about it.

    Human Rights are under attack around the world, and it stands to reason that someone is getting rich somewhere…multi-national corporations maybe (and I’m talking about the theft of Africa’s natural resources here)? Or is that me being paranoid?

  21. We should give them aid but not without conditions and the release of these men should be the first of those conditions. We can just say ‘if you do as we say we will give you the £80M, but if you think you can do without it then don’t bother…’

  22. I’m sending my money to ILGHRC, even if it’s just the price of a cup of coffee:

    http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/pressroom/pressrelease/1131.html

  23. It is very unlikely that in such a repulsive, backward, and corrupt country that much “AID” ever gets to the poor anyway. It is very likely the ruling class is who will get it’s wings clipped by holding back funds. To tolerate intolerance is unacceptable, and that is where the line needs to be drawn if the future is to be any better, anywhere, for anyone.

  24. The “learned” magistrate Nyakwawa Usiwa Usiwa said : “I sentence you to 14 years imprisonment with hard labour each. That’s the maximum under the penal code. I will give you a scaring sentence so that the public be protected from people like you, so that we are not tempted to emulate this horrendous example.”

    …..NewsTimes, http://www.newstime.co.za/WorldNews/Malawi_descends_into_dark_ages_sentencing_gay_couple_to_14_years/5525/

    Malawi Gays Had No Chance: http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=51525
    ……………Claire Ngozo, IPS South Africa

    Madonna Statement on Malawi; Boy Culture: http://boyculture.typepad.com/boy_culture/2010/05/madonna-statement-on-malawi-.html

    Nyakwawa Usiwa Usiwa on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Nyakwawa-Usiwa-Usiwa/100000418113808

    Canada blasts Malawi over jailing of gay couple: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canada-blasts-malawi-over-jailing-of-gay-couple/article1576456/

    Why is it so difficult to get a photo of this fcuking magistrate??

  25. According to Wikipedia (best I could do):

    ‘…the Malawi Council of Churches advised the Malawi government to retain current laws against homosexuality in the criminal code and to disregard the pressure from donor countries, advising the countries to “respect Malawi’s cultural and religious values and refrain from using aid as a means of forcing the country to legalise sinful acts like homosexuality in the name of human rights.”‘

    There we have it, then. The Malawi Council of Churches may just as well have advised the Malawi government to ignore its own Constitution.

  26. BrazilBoysBlog 21 May 2010, 5:28am

    @ theotherone “perhaps – now this is just a suggestion mind (pardon the pun) – we should do like brain scans or something so we can work out what people think right? And if they think any differently from us/ me they should be killed right? It would make everything so simple wouldn’t it?”

    Not really, and despite the snarky comment, I prefer simply to listen to what they say, and observe what they actually do… Surely the best way of determining what they think? ;-)

    “I have set forth my case (a mixture of Humanitarianism and realpolitik) and some people would rather wipe out others they don’t agree with.”

    What, like the Malawi ´justice´ system and government? It has most likely sentenced these two men to die in custody.. It has been widely reported the poor conditions and medical treatment in their prisons… THAT sounds like ´wiping out others they don´t agree with´ to me..

    Personally, I´m not for ´wiping out´ anyone who happens to disagree with me… But I AM against paying to enable them to do it.

  27. Ironically, Malawi is the same country whose officials have ignored the country’s adoption rules to enable Madonna — an iconic figure in the gay community — to adopt two children from the impoverished nation.

    Madonna last month footed a $15 million bill to build Raising Malawi Academy for Girls, a educational institution set to open next year.

  28. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 5:42am

    My God I am astounded by hatred and stupidity of some of the people posting on here.

    You don’t get equality and so your happy to condemn untold numbers to death to teach them a lesson for being largely poor and uneducated.

    Its a relief that most if not all of you will not be producing off-spring. Those are just the sort of personality traits that need to be extinguished from society.

    Hatred breeds hatred. I cannot imagine the bitterness that some of you must have encountered to twist you into the pathetic, hate filled, poisonous creatures you are.

    Glib remarks about terminating the lives of those living in Malawi make you no better than the judge that delivered the sentence.

  29. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 6:49am

    diplomacy, sanctions.

    Yeh, right

    they worked so well in Uganda to persuade that country away from its hate bill…

  30. BrazilBoysBlog 21 May 2010, 6:55am

    @ SMC “I cannot imagine the bitterness that some of you must have encountered to twist you into the pathetic, hate filled, poisonous creatures you are.”

    Thats funny, I see only a reasonable measured discussion here.. With people expressing views they are quite entitled to about where there tax money should go..

    ´hate-filled poison´??? I see only ONE person being abusive to others views here?

  31. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 7:04am

    we’re not talking “equality” her, SMC, we’re talking judicial murder. While we can’t inflence places like Iran much, in Africa we can because we’re funding their elites through aid.

    Now as a good tory you shouldn’t support institutionalised aid anyway – self-help anyone – and after 46 years of independance they ought to be weaning themselves off it. Is it because they’re black that they ought to get a free meal? (or Mercedes?)

  32. Maybe we could swap some of the aid for education? Listening to the people agreeing with the sentence outside the Court, there seemed to be a lot of ignorance. It’s easy to brainwash people with religious ‘facts’ when they have no other access to information.

    Personally, I think the aid should be given in stages and, yes, it should be dependent on non-discrimination. People in power need an ‘enemy’ to bolster their position, and I think that and the churches there have caused this hideous sentence. Malawi government officials should be called to account and it made clear that discrimination like this is unacceptable. A way forward regarding aid and education should be agreed.

  33. A look inside a Malawi jail:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/international/africa/06prisons.html?_r=1

    The worse of it is that the magistrate who sentenced Steven and Tiwonge to this kind of life,

    NYAKWAWA USIWA USIWA,

    knew perfectly well what he was doing, and he could have legally handed down a non-custodial sentence.

    B@stard.

  34. The reason because the money “given for humanitarian reasons could act as a tool of pressure is not because if you don’t give it they won’t help the poorest of the poor –obviously they won’t- but because the government always makes a big bite from that money. So that’s why it could be worrying for them.
    You would be surprise how fast they would reconsider their “moral position” if faced with the withdrawn of money. And no, they –the Malawi’s government- obviously don’t give a crap about the poor. That’s a western sentimentalism for them. They don’t want change. They want “tradition”. In a very colonial way cause everything previous to their monotheistic indoctrinations fall into a black hole of oblivion for them.

  35. “Alan Duncan has warned against cutting aid money to Malawi but says the government will make “urgent representations” to the county over the 14-year jail term handed to two gay men.”

    Yea, well if “the government” were serious about making “urgent representations”, it would have done it by now.

  36. Jock S. Trap 21 May 2010, 9:50am

    Have to say have reconsidered my opinion. Alan Duncan is right. I guess it’s easy for people living in a country where food is in easy supply to suggest others should starve not knowing exactly what starving to death entails. I think the best solution is from international diplomacy maybe leading to sanctions. I do feel the gay couple in question should be given the chance to relocate to a more civilised country of their choosing. Thats of course if they wish for that. Malawi needs to live up to its obligation of allowing human rights for All it’s citizens.

    I think the bigger question is how do we change such homophobic views from a society? Starving them won’t work, it would probably have the opposite effect.

    Alan Duncan may well be an excellent choice for International Development Minister. It will be interesting to see how he is treated from countries with appalling LGBT treatment and records. Will he actually be allowed in such countries?

  37. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 9:50am

    Let’s stop calling it “aid”. It’s actually a “subsidy” or an allowance to allow the elite to live well without actually having to do something.

    “Aid” is a short term thing to meet an un-expected problem (drought, earthquake…)

  38. theotherone 21 May 2010, 10:02am

    iris: I’m in agreement with you that Aid should have some basic requirements regarding Human Rights applied to it) and we are frankly not privy to what is being discussed but I do note that the story says ‘But Malawi is expected to come under international pressure for the sentence and PinkNews.co.uk understands it will be raised in future budget support discussions’ which, as far as I can see, fulfills your requirement for aid tied to Human Rights.

    As to Brazilboysblog: no not one person attacking the views expressed here but at least two. People on the two stories dealing with the Government’s reaction to this want to see people die because they disagree with them. I think you and others on here have fast lost the moral high ground. I and SMC do not want to keep giving aid because people are Black but because they are Human.

    I agree totally with SMC: ‘ts a relief that most if not all of you will not be producing off-spring. Those are just the sort of personality traits that need to be extinguished from society.’

  39. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 10:02am

    That’s the problem BrasilBoy – you and others probably don’t think that risking the lives of untold number of people is in any way wrong at all as long as you get you way. Nothing bitter and twisted about advocating the deaths of other individuals if you don’t get your own way. No, nothing at all. Not the least poisonous to view the lives of people living in one of the poorest nations in the world so cheaply that you would happy commit them to death rather than attempt to negotiate a solution to the current problem. Sorry, what was I thinking.

    I seem to remember you banging on about the evils of a Tory government, as were a few of the other death-mongers on here. Is that one of the principles of socialism now then, if the government, or the courts do something wrong, kill the poor?

    I think you’re sick.

    What next – chemical weapons – the nuclear option?

  40. theotherone 21 May 2010, 10:05am

    I find it surprising that it is the Tory/ Right Wing posters on this site who are more measured in their opinion on this issue.

    What the fvck happened to the British Left? This was the Left who used to fight sanctions.

  41. theotherone 21 May 2010, 10:07am

    ‘What next – chemical weapons – the nuclear option?’

    a kristallnacht? a ‘final solution.’

    Your right SMC: they’re fvck1ng sick.

  42. No more aid to Malawi.

    Africa’s problems are too big for Britain to solve. We should divert all aid money currently sent by Britain to Malawi, and send this money to an equally poor, but less genocidally homophobic country than Malawi.

  43. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 10:08am

    Thank you theotherone – you’ve noticed it too. NuLabour took a sharp turn to the right and it appears that their supporters embraced that with vigor.

    I am truly disgusted that some people view life so cheaply.

  44. “I am truly disgusted that some people view life so cheaply. ”

    I don’t view life cheaply.

    But I also realise that Africa’s poverty is too serious for Britain to solve.

    There are many countries which are just as desperately poor as Malawi, but which are not genocidally homophobic.

    The money we send each year to Malawi will not solve Malawi’s problems. Therefore we may as well send it to an equally poor country which does not piss all over basic human rights.

    Aid to Africa clearly does not work. How many billions has Malawi received in aid over the last 30 years. Why are they still so poor?

  45. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 10:21am

    Another Labour voter I’m guessing then Martin?

  46. Philippa Stroud’s church is part of the wider Apostolic evangelist movement that is mushrooming throughout the African continent including Malawi and Uganda.
    The church planting activities and training programmes run by the evangelicals spread the message that Homosexuals are the enemy and possessed of demons.
    It is this church-fueled hysterical demonising of gays has made these harsh laws inevitable.

    This article has some useful information regarding above:
    http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/04/gop-senator-brownbacks-roomate-lou-engle-supports-eliminationist-antigay-bill/

  47. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 10:36am

    Thanks for that Pavlos – I think that probably helps make the point that starving poor people of food and medicines isn’t really going to address the root of the problem.

  48. @46 Pavlos:

    Yea, and when Lou Engels took the podium, he started by expressing his “surprise” that an anti-gay bill existed in Uganda. Imagine that !!

    I agree that we are looking at the polarization of religion versus human rights.

  49. theotherone 21 May 2010, 10:53am

    I’ll add my agreement to that.

  50. Yes SMC… but putting faith based groups in charge of distribution centres leaves the most vulnerable people open to the most sophisticated and sinister indoctrination techniques that these groups have developed.
    There’s a popular motto “If you do God’s work then God will take care of you” unfortunately the elimination of “evils” like homosexuality is part of this so-called God’s work.

  51. Pavlos:

    Brilliant observation…and that ain’t flattery.

  52. “Another Labour voter I’m guessing then Martin?”

    No – just someone very reasonable.

    If Africa is do desperately poor (as we are constantly reminded) and seeing as despite the billions in aid already pumped in there, then quite clearly it hasn’t worked.

    British aid sent to Malawi has not and will not solve the deep rooted problems of that country.

    And seeing as that country has now spit in the face of human rights, then it makes perfect sense to divert all money currently sent to Malawi to an equally poor country which has a greater respect for human rights.

    No more cash to Malawi. Yes they’ll starve. But they will starve even if we keep sending money.

    If we are going to subsidise these tinpot dictatorships then the least we can do is ensure that the regime in power is not genocidal.

  53. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 11:32am

    and so SMC and theotherone turn to ad hominem attacks. Why don’t you just call us bigots who ought to pay everything we earn to support a benighted country that has p*ssed away the aid we have given them over 4 decades on luxuries for the elite.

    What proportion gets to the poorest? Why are you so comfortable with sacrificing these two people without using the only sanction likely to work: a hierarchy of importance.

    I will be clear: I will always support LGBT people above others, because few others do. I do not want my money to support bigots. I consider your insults as typical as the purblind who can see only your own view: you haven’t actually suggested anything positive that will work, merely attack as “evil” those who suggest an unpalatable option.

    I can think of so many other places that our money would be equally welcome and actually used for the people it was meant for.

  54. Jock S. Trap 21 May 2010, 11:37am

    And how is tellin millions of people they should starve to death or change making you any different from the judges passing sentence on these two innocent men and the LGBT community?

  55. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 11:50am

    Mihangel apYrs – I will bear your views in mind every time you post on here. You deserve as much empathy as you are prepared to show people living in one of the world’s poorest countries.

    Others have pointed out reasons why opinions may be as they are in Malawi.

    It absolutely disgusts me that people (you) are prepared to put LGBT issues about the sanctity of life. Those people reliant on aid cannot reasonably argue their case for its continuance and rather than allow the government to go down a path of negotiation you would rather condemn them t death.

    Words can scarcely convey what I think about that attitude.

    Don’t ever post on here again about equality, tolerance or acceptance – because you have no right to it if you are not prepared to offer it to others.

    This site is like a mecca for ugly people with ugly views.

  56. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:02pm

    ‘and so SMC and theotherone turn to ad hominem attacks. Why don’t you just call us bigots’

    Alright – you’re a bigot, an ugly, inhumane bigot.

    Happy?

    To repeat the words of SMC: ‘Don’t ever post on here again about equality, tolerance or acceptance – because you have no right to it if you are not prepared to offer it to others.’

  57. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:05pm

    oh and Micangel: you accuse I and SMC of ad hominem attacks while you wish to attack a whole country? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a very long time.

    And michelm: you’re not ‘very reasonable’ you’re a genocidal lackwit.

  58. SMC says: “It absolutely disgusts me that people (you) are prepared to put LGBT issues about the sanctity of life. ”

    I’m certainly NOT suggesting that.

    My very reasonable suggestion is that seeing as British aid to Malawi will never solve the country’s problems, and seeing as there are loads of countries in Africa which are just as desperately poor as Malawi, then Britain should divert the aid money currently being sent to Malawi, to another equally poor country. A country which is NOT genocidally homophobic like Malawi for example.

    Africa is beyondpoor. Aid money has been pumped into that continent in its billions over the past 40 years.

    The aid has not worked.

    Therefore we need to stop feeling moral responsibility for the tinpot African dictatorships which have robbed their countries blind.

    Aid to Malawi would be better spent in a different country – a country which supports human rights.

  59. I’m quite shocked by the number of people here who clearly know nothing about the political or humanitarian situation in Malawi! Malawi is NOT a “tin pot dictatorship” it has a democratically elected government. I’ll admit it has some flaws (some of these are constitutional, like how the vice president is from a different party to the president!) but compared to other countries, like Zimbabwe, they’re pretty good on the democracy front.

    It is also unfair to claim that the aid doesn’t help – I am 100% sure that our aid saves and improves lives. Two hundred years ago, the English were doing just what Malawi is doing today (and teaching them how to do it themselves…) to condemn thousands of children (who are the least to blame for these events) won’t help one bit.

    The fact is, that for the average Malawian, thinking about the wrongs/rights of the penal code is neither here nor there – They don’t have the educational background to appreciate the argument fully or, in many cases, even to go and read the facts. If you want a country to grow out of primitive unquestioned beliefs then the sensible way, in my opinion, is to fund education and help them to achieve food security. A society that has to worry about whether they’re doing to starve from too little (or too much) rain is unlikely to progress to a more compassionate society until their basic needs are taken care of. To claim that they are uncaring or inhuman is not true, in 2007 (and probably more) Malawi was providing food aid to Zimbabwe!

    Yes, Malawi has huge problems, but I don’t think they will, as a society, turn their attentions to human rights until they stop worrying about food and water. Providing aid to help them (and even encourage them to) focus on these issues is surely the only way to improve the situation for the gay citizens of Malawi?

  60. Wow, I come back and still the intolerant, bigots are still amongst us then but condemning a whole society to death. Why does that not surprise me!!

    You should be ashamed of calling yourself human let alone gay with this me, me, me attitude of yours. So destructive and solves nothing but hatred.

    So eye for an eye then is it? Wouldn’t we do better proving we’re better?

    Hypocrites much!!??

  61. “And vulpus, when exactly has diplomacy ever worked?”

    Northern Ireland, South Africa, Former communist eastern Europe. Massive over-simplification, and yes I know there were other factors, but by and large sustained diplomatic pressure over time did the job.

  62. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 12:33pm

    theotherone
    I think you meant “inhuman” you semi-literate foul-mouthed half-wit.

    You gladly consign 2 lives to torment and death (which something can be done about) while whitter meaninglessly about our inhumanity in not anting to pour an endless and increasing stream of money into the pockets of elites who gladly ignore the sufferings of their people.

    Enjoy sucking up to dictators do you? I fear that your stupidity has thoroughly lost your argument: and you are still incapable of suggesing anything else that has the merest scintilla of a chance of success in turning this benighted country into something worthy of remaining in hte community of nations.

  63. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:37pm

    is it just me or is there a certain air of Racism to the comments here?

    I suppose African Lifes are only worth anything if they’re GAY African lifes.

  64. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:40pm

    Mihangel : you accuse me of consigning two people to death? I again accuse you of consigning a whole country to death.

  65. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 12:43pm

    SMC
    thank you for your magisterial judgement: your sanctimony is little more than I had come to expect from you but was too polite to mention.

    Your toryism is of course only appropriate when you get something out of it: you haven’t commented how continually subsidising a country (you know a bit like social security benefits that your party would love to cut) is a good thing to do, nor how diplomacy (vide Uganda) will make a fcuks bit of difference to the effective death sentence on these two people.

    We can’t save a nation from itself (I mean why is Malawi still the a*se-end of Hell?) but we could save these two.

    Now start up your rant again about how I lack compassion, charity, understanding of equality and all the other childish things that spew out of your keyboard, and think whether you would be making such a fuss if they were not black.

  66. “And michelm: you’re not ‘very reasonable’ you’re a genocidal lackwit. ”

    No – I’m very reasonable.

    To repeat for the 5th time.

    British aid will not solve Malawi or Africa’s problems. It will simply alleviate some symptoms temporarily.

    Britain need to divert the aid currently going to the regime in Malawi and give to countries which are equally deserving, but which have a commitment to human rights. This way Britain continues to give aid to the desperately poor, while at the same time we are not funding a sexual genocide.

    That is perfectly reasonable.

  67. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:47pm

    it’s reasonable to cut off aid to a country? Your version of reasonablness is not mine.

  68. Everything you need to know about Michelle Kagari, Amnesty Africa:

    http://www.123people.co.uk/s/michelle+kagari

  69. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:52pm

    Mihangel: did you just make a comment on Tory Social Policy? Did you just try to reclaim a Moral Highground while condemning a whole country to death? You sicken me.

  70. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 12:53pm

    I suggest that those raising the racist taunt should ut it into the context of a continent that that has systematically failed and been supported through decades by us racists with little evidence of improvement.

    You can criss-cross from country to country and there are institutionalised rapes, genocide, religious warfare, corruption, homophobia etc, etc, etc.

    And don’t blame the ex-colonial powers: whatever else we did we educated and put in place institutions and infrastructure. That nice Mr Mugabe was educated in the UK and elsewhere, as were many other of the post-colonial rulers.

    And democracy was strangled at birth by many of them; corruption is rife in a way that would be embarrassing elsewhere; and they still blame the ex-colonial powers.

    For 50 years I can remember the begging bowl being held out: how much longer must charity keep entire populaces fed watered and educated? When will they start to become self-sufficient?

  71. theotherone 21 May 2010, 12:55pm

    Mihangel: you claimed sMC only wanted Aid to continue because the recipients where Black.

    That’s racism mate.

  72. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:00pm

    Mihangel: and may I add that if you’re not a Racist then I presume that we should withdraw from Europe? That the Act Of Union be dissolved?

  73. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:03pm

    theotherone
    “aid” is not a tory value except when it is tied to development strings. SMC’s support for aid to a bigotted country (and yes the common people are as bigotted as the elite) suggests one resonance – colour and race. That is the elephant in the room that no-one speaks of: these countries get the pass because they’re African.

    You’ve still not said what can be done that’s effective to save these two people. Until you do only money talks.

    And I’m not your mate (or does using that word make you feel big?)

  74. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:06pm

    theotherone: what the fcuk does the Act of Union and European Convention have to do with anything?

  75. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:07pm

    no you’re not my friend and thank god for that.

    I ask again: will you call for us to withdraw from Europe and the Act Of Union to be abolished?

  76. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:09pm

    ‘what the fcuk does the Act of Union and European Convention have to do with anything?’

    because under both the UK Parliament hands money out to other countries.

    Should these then be disbanded?

  77. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:13pm

    ah I see, confuse the issue:

    the 4 countries of the UK subscribe to the same conventions of human rights, though individuals don’t necessarily, as does the EU.

    If Malawi actually practiced what it preached then this increasingly sordid thread wouldn’t even have needed to start.

    and, the othereone, it is with profoundest gratitude that I don’t count you amongst many friends

  78. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:17pm

    so it’s OK to give Aid as long as it’s to white people?

    I quote: ‘For 50 years I can remember the begging bowl being held out: how much longer must charity keep entire populaces fed watered and educated? When will they start to become self-sufficient?’

    You, on Africa. So we stop Aid to Black people but we keep giving it to White people?

    you’re not atall racist are you? Not in the slightest.

  79. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:22pm

    ‘You can criss-cross from country to country and there are institutionalised rapes, genocide, religious warfare, corruption, homophobia etc, etc, etc.’

    hey mikangel, is that Africa or Europe you where talking about?

  80. so we should just let them spent 14 yr in jail if they live that long , i say no so what if that contry is poor and need our aid if they are going to do things like that then cut the aid let them know that we would not stand for that. the UK must stop the aid and any coutry that gives them aid should be boycott, the people of the world should stand together on this.

  81. Bottom line is this.

    Not a single penny in British aid money should be sent to Malawi.

    Yeah they are poor. Yeah they have problems. So do many African countries.

    Our aid is not going to resolve Africa’s problems. So we should donate aid only to countries which have a commitment to human rights.

    It’s that simple.

    None of the people defending aid to Malawi have offered a suggestion on how to punish Malawi for introducing sexual genocide.

  82. Human Rights Watch called on the prosecutors to drop all charges against Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza; and on the government to reaffirm its commitment to all Malawians’ right to Equality, Privacy, and Dignity (as stated in the Constitution).

    “The case against Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza is an affront to essential principles of non-discrimination and equality,” said Dipika Nath, researcher in the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender (LGBT) Rights Program at Human Rights Watch. “It singles out two people as criminals simply because they love each other.”

    The fact is Steven and Tiwonge are not criminals; they never should have been arrested, imprisoned for months before being brought to trial, found guilty according to a penal code that clashes with the democratic Constitution of Malawi, and sentenced to 14 YEARS OF HARD LABOR.

    Steven and Tiwonge should be released immediately – not tomorrow or in 2 months time – and given protection against the influence of American religious nutters who have drilled it into the general population that gays are possessed by demons, and whipped them into an emotional frenzy likely to end up in a bloodbath, if not the burning of the Parliament Building, or both.

    As for what we can do, we can attempt to influence our politicians to act now if not sooner:

    http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2010/05/read-judgment-against-malawi-gay-couple.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SaveMehdiKazemi+%28LGBT+asylum+news%29

  83. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:27pm

    No I’m merely asking if it is our unending duty to fund failing nations without any expectation of improvement; the same question stands regardless of colour. Would we have allowed the situation tto ride so long if we hadn’t been saddled with guilt of what our nations had done in the past? Compare with our other ex-colonies, why are only the African ones basket cases? If we can’t ask that question then we are being racist by “giving them the benefit of the doubt”, i.e. they need to be treated as though they are incompetent.

    And you still haven’t said what you would do next, shoort of wringing your hands, whining, and paying up while these two people die unpleasantly.

    Until you actually answer that question everything else you say is obscurantist persiflage!

  84. vulpus_rex 21 May 2010, 1:30pm

    Much of the foreign cash pumped into Malawi is to fund HIV/AIDS treatment.

    I remain unconvinced that the immediate cessation of UK funding for any such programmes is an obviously reasonable way to respond to this situation.

  85. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:34pm

    oh dear mihangel a bit tetchy are we? I have answered your question several times now you answer mine:b should the Act Of Union be disbanded and the European Union too? I mean some countries in Europe have been receiving allot of money without visible signs of improvement. Should we do this sir? Should we pull out of Europe?

  86. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:37pm

    further Scotland now needs a massive increase in funding to stop it slipping to the level of a Developing Nation within the next 20 years.

    Not much sign of improvement there eh micangel? Should we stop funding them?

  87. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 1:39pm

    “and think whether you would be making such a fuss if they were not black.”

    In answer to your point, a human life is a human life irrespective of whether black or white, gay or straight. I would be making exactly the same ‘fuss’ as you put it whoever it was.

  88. Don’t think Anybody is ‘sucking up to dictators’. What happened with these 2 innocent people is shocking to say the least but you do realise what some of you are suggesting is called Genocide!!

    I doubt even Tiwonge & Steven would agree or accept a nation starving to death in their name or not. What these 2 need is support and real help not evil ideas from intolerant people that really and truly should know better.

  89. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:48pm

    sigh:
    theotherone your response is effectively “tell them we’re disppointed in them”.
    The UK comprises 4 countries, all 4 holding the same values and interdependent. I don’t actually understand what you find so difficult to understand, though the ScotNats would adore you.

    The EU does contain some countries where homophobia is rife, BUT, (get this) they don’t condemn people to prison sentences designed to kill them, and they do get a lot of pressure from other EU countries that will make a difference.

    Malawi has decided it wants our money without adhering to its own statements let alone our expectations, so unless we get heavy they will raise two fingers and leave us impotent.

    And please spell my name correctly, it has neither “k”s nor “c”s

  90. O fy, amser ar gyfer fy te gwyrdd!

  91. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 1:54pm

    PS it’s been stated here that most of the aid goes to HIV/AIDS work: so removal of it won’t lead people to starve. And if it can be guaranteed that the overwhelming percentage of aid goes to teh suffering rather than sticky-fingered off along the way then let the NGOs have it. I just don’t want to keep a corrupt elite in comfort.

  92. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:54pm

    but the line I quote from you about the Begging bowl and that whole post didn’t mention Human Rights just giving Aid.

    You want to continue giving Aid to White Countries but not Africa right? OK then, you’re a Racist. You want to see Africans die but Europeans flourish. you’re a Racist.

    Shall I quote your whole post for you? Here goes:

    ‘ suggest that those raising the racist taunt should ut it into the context of a continent that that has systematically failed and been supported through decades by us racists with little evidence of improvement.

    ‘You can criss-cross from country to country and there are institutionalised rapes, genocide, religious warfare, corruption, homophobia etc, etc, etc.

    ‘And don’t blame the ex-colonial powers: whatever else we did we educated and put in place institutions and infrastructure. That nice Mr Mugabe was educated in the UK and elsewhere, as were many other of the post-colonial rulers.

    ‘And democracy was strangled at birth by many of them; corruption is rife in a way that would be embarrassing elsewhere; and they still blame the ex-colonial powers.

    ‘For 50 years I can remember the begging bowl being held out: how much longer must charity keep entire populaces fed watered and educated? When will they start to become self-sufficient?’

    That is a post about Africa NOT about one Country in Africa.

  93. theotherone 21 May 2010, 1:58pm

    oh and JP: I’d love some green tea.

  94. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 2:04pm

    that is a post about Africa, because almost the entire continent is a basket case. I can see nothing that is false. I say nothing about the colour of the skin of the dying, it is you who would give the “black” nations licence to behave in a way we would conndemn elsewhere – reverse racism?

    I can think of no non-black NATIONS that are so broken as to need continuous aid merely to survive. If we speak of this, then we are condemned as bigots, if we don’t we see nothing changing.

    Believe me, honestly, I rejoiced when Zimbabwe was born, I celebrated when South Africa elected mandela. I grieve when I see what has happened since.

    Is your uncritical support for all these countires actually aiding the ordinary people?

  95. I say stop all aid immediately. There were mostly women jeering this couple when they came out of the court. Shouldn’t they be milking goats or plowing fields instead? Or does this fall under recreational activity?

    I’m sorry, but the situation in Europe is dire, what with the enormous deficits and all. And now Mr Rompuy wants aid to be increased even more and punish those members who don’t achieve the fixed percentage. The least they could do is present us with the list of reforms Malawi has passed and the progress they’ve made since they started receiving the aid. Because all I see is my country financing this magistrate’s arse and the papers he wrote this sentence on. It has nothing to do with compassion or altruism. It’s called pragmatism; knowing what you get for the money you spend.

    And lets not even go into how much money we’re going to pump into greening their economy. It makes me naseuos just thinking about that.

  96. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 2:13pm

    careful, Lucius – theotherone will get you!

  97. BrazilBoysBlog 21 May 2010, 2:17pm

    @ SMC and Theotherone… To clarify, my view is NOT that we should immediately take all aid off the table. My view is that the threat of doing so should be used in diplomatic negotiations with this homophobic country/government.

    Conditions are, quite rightly, attached to things given in many cases so this would be quite normal. The problem with issuing threats/demands/requirements, call them what you will, is that you have to MEAN it. You cannot open negotiations with someone by saying `we don´t like what you are doing, but we will carry on giving you money regardless, do not worry about that´…

    I am NOT in favour of starving anyone, (be they black, white or pink!) I AM in favour of letting this homophobic (and so we are told) very democratic country, that failing to meet their (agreed) international agreements on equality and fair treatment to all is not acceptable. Backed my threats that actually MEAN something.

    As I said before, I am sure that such representations would help to focus minds on what is really important to their country. Persecuting people for who they love, or poverty.

    Stating, in advance of diplomatic representations that your most powerful weapon is off the table is rather defeating the object?

    To quote another famous Tory…

    “It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find, the moment the first balls are bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain.”

    Sir Geoffrey Howe, resignation speech, House of Commons, November 1990.

  98. M-m….occurs to me that if these two innocent men, Steven and Tiwonge, have been given 14 years of hard labor right under our noses, how many innocent men have died, are dying or will die in a cramped jail in the “Land of the Warm Heart”, Malawi.

    No green tea there to warm the heart, that’s for sure.

    At the moment, the Malawi Constitution is not worth the paper on which it is written so that Malawi is more than just a flawed democracy in the eyes of the world; it’s an abysmal failure.

    And again, I’d be interested in knowing how much of a kickback government officials are receiving to allow greedy, unscrupulous multi-national corporations to disrupt the native populations and rape the earth of its natural resources.

    Merde.

  99. theotherone 21 May 2010, 2:30pm

    ‘I can think of no non-black NATIONS that are so broken as to need continuous aid merely to survive.’

    Portugal, Poland, Ireland…

    ‘if we speak of this, then we are condemned as bigots’

    I’m not a Racist but…

    Funny how you claimed, at the beginning of this ‘discussion’ that this was about the actions of one Country and now it’s become about non-white (to turn your ‘non-black’ on it’s head) Nations. So you then use the experience of these two people as an excuse to punish ‘the black man’ for being ‘the white man’s burden.’ And you say I’m sick…

  100. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 2:50pm

    “@ SMC and Theotherone… To clarify, my view is NOT that we should immediately take all aid off the table. My view is that the threat of doing so should be used in diplomatic negotiations with this homophobic country/government.”

    That’s odd because you seemed to be standing up for others who were advocating ceasing all aid immediately.

    You now seem to be saying you are in favour of hat the government is actually doing.

    To those banging on about pouring money into a bottomless pit and nothing getting batter, perhaps we should look at the ‘aid’ we have given and why it hasn’t worked.

    Were the US abstinence campaigns in relation to HIV/AIDS a more viable option that condom distribution? Is the influence and ‘support’ provided by fundamentalist Christian churches in the US helping or hindering the building of tolerant societies? Would we have been to sell technology for exploiting the continent’s vast renewable energy potential rather than guns and bombs?

    @ Lucius

    “And lets not even go into how much money we’re going to pump into greening their economy. It makes me naseuos just thinking about that.”

    I think you’ll probably find that they economies are already substantially greener than hours and their renewable energy potential is enormous in comparison to other parts of the world. The African continent suffers as a result of the environmental pollution the developed world generates.

  101. vulpus_rex 21 May 2010, 3:04pm

    “O fy, amser ar gyfer fy te gwyrdd!”

    My Welsh is a tad rusty but doesn’t the use of “fy” subject the following noun to a nasal mutation? I might even venture to suggest that the position of gwyrdd requires a soft mutation.

  102. theotherone 21 May 2010, 3:08pm

    no idea rex but google corrected it when I searched…

  103. “If we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties . . . must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective.” Martin Luther King Jr.

    Transcending our race, our tribe, our class and our nation is as much a challenge today as ever.

    Personally, I’m still under construction.

    I suppose that means I’m a bit of a racist whether or not I know it, and I am living on a planet where every living thing is interdependent, whether or not I know it.

    m-m, te da!

  104. oh and btw, any word on those ‘urgent representations’ to Malawi?

    Sacrés bleus !

  105. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 3:47pm

    …’I can think of no non-black NATIONS that are so broken as to need continuous aid merely to survive.’

    Portugal, Poland, Ireland…

    yes I can see how they were continuously needing support. Oh wait, it’s really only since the WORLD economy crashed and burned

    but I don’t expect you to look at this honestly: any criticism of any black nation is racist bigotry

    It is a sign of national failure when “aid” becomes part of regular budget planning

  106. BrazilBoysBlog 21 May 2010, 3:49pm

    @ SMC “That’s odd because you seemed to be standing up for others who were advocating ceasing all aid immediately.

    You now seem to be saying you are in favour of hat the government is actually doing.”

    Nothing ´odd´ about it at all. Perhaps a good lesson in actually reading what people say, rather than reading into things what we want to see? I have just been back through all of my postings on this subject and nowhere can I find where I have said all aid should be immediately cut. I have said that many object to paying to support a regime that cares so little about basic human rights and equality. I stand by that. Seems a common sense viewpoint to me. I say that (if) countries want aid, then to expect a few common decencies, the respect for law and their own constitution and international agreements is not much to expect is it?

    Again, reading into things what you want to read, … Where have I said that I ´seem to be in favour of what the government is actually doing´ ??? Quite the opposite.

    My whole point (didn´t you read my last comment?) is that the government is making itself a toothless idiot by stating, upfront, that it is not prepared to cease aid, that it will be making “urgent representations”… Big deal! ´Ohhh we´re SO scared´ I´m sure will be their reply… whilst 2 gay men remain in prison and will likely die there… simply for being gay.

    I am NOT against helping others. I am NOT for immediately cutting off aid to anyone who needs it and is complying with international law. Clearly, they must be given a chance to correct this incredible, unjust, homophobic and ILLEGAL sentence on these two men…(and the persecution of other lesbian and gay people in their country)… But they MUST understand that we will not stand idly by and condone/finance such practices in the future.. And that should NOT be an idle threat.

  107. paul canning 21 May 2010, 3:52pm

    Read the judgment against Malawi gay couple http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2010/05/read-judgment-against-malawi-gay-couple.html

    Peter Tatchell issued a plea for action in support of them:

    Send a letter or postcard of support to Steven and Tiwonge. In this difficult time, they need to know that people around the world love and support them. Get all your friends to do the same. Write to:

    Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza, Prisoners, Chichiri Prison, P.O.Box 30117, Blantyre 3, Malawi

    Make a donation by post or BACS electronic transfer to OutRage!’s Malawi Defence Campaign. OutRage! will use all money donated to support Tiwonge and Steven with food parcels, medicine, clothes, blankets etc. and to help fund the campaign for their release.

    By BACS electronic transfer:
    Account name: OutRage!
    Bank: Alliance and Leicester Commercial Bank, Bootle, Merseyside, GIR 0AA, England, UK
    Account number: 77809302
    Sort code: 72-00-01

    For electronic transfers from overseas (outside the UK), please
    ADDITIONALLY quote this code:
    IBAN: GB65ALEI72000177809302

    By cheque:
    Write a cheque payable to “OutRage!” and send to OutRage!, PO Box 17816, London SW14 8WT. Enclose a note giving your name and address and stating that your donation is for the Malawi Defence campaign.

  108. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 3:57pm

    What’s you point apYrs? Shall we just bomb the lot of them and good riddance? We could maybe steralise them so they can’t reproduce. We could cut of their index fingers to stop them firing guns at each other. No wait, cut their hands off and then they couldn’t steal the overseas aid.

  109. Oye hombre, tan fuerte!

  110. …er…Ei cara, tão forte!

  111. “‘I can think of no non-black NATIONS that are so broken as to need continuous aid merely to survive.’
    Portugal, Poland, Ireland…”

    This is the most deliberatelly stupid answer I’ve seen on here in a while.

    Malawi is a country where 40% of the ENTIRE NATIONAL BUDGET comes from international aid. Ireland, Portugal and Poland are in recession at present (along with Britain, Greece, USA and the rest of the western world) but have NEVER relied on aid for survival like Malawi does(or indeed pretty much every African country).

    STOP ALL AID TO MALAWI.

    Aid is not helping Malawi. There are several other equally needy countries which do not have genocidally homophobic regimes.

    Malawi is a failed state. They’ve had billions of aid over the years and still expect the international community to prop up their failed state. Yet they cannot even apply basic levels of human rights.

    If they want our money then they need to abide by internationally recognised standards of human rights.

    By sentencing these 2 men to death for being gay (14 years hard labour is a guaranteed death sentence) Malawi is telling the world that it no longer requires our aid.

    If they have enough money to persecute sexual minorities then they have enough money to feed themselves.

  112. It’s very peculiar how the (most often self-proclaimed) biggest “givers” come up with the most obscene scenarios. Sterilization, mutilation and genocide as alternatives to aid. When no one else who is opposed to aid suggested anything of the sort. Because there’s no such thing as peaceful talks, right? That’s some f’ed up imagination and reasoning right there.

    I’d be content with a short slideshow presentation of reforms Malawi has passed. Or is their parliament there just for appearances, to make us feel better?

    And it’s not really money we’re giving them, now is it? It’s actually borrowed cash. Just to appease one set of criteria (on aid) and further breaking another one (Pact on stability). How is that reasonable and responsible towards us, citizens? Doesn’t that kind of negate the whole point of giving another if you have more than him?

  113. Malawi jails gays for 14 years its bad but there not dead.

    uk deports cancer paitent to die.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1582270/Woman-deported-to-Ghana-despite-cancer-dies.html

    uk lets terrorist stay incase they get a hard time in pakistan

    now I can understand the mentality behind these posts

  114. Happy Queen Victoria Weekend !

  115. Iain Taylor 21 May 2010, 5:12pm

    Alan Duncan is wrong about cutting aid creating more victims. Cut the aid and make it clear that donor states will not bankroll the likes of Malawi, Uganda, etc. until their governments adopt civilised standards.

  116. No more rigged elections.

  117. There is a number 10 e-petition you can sign:

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/malawigaylaw/

    Bad news is No10 have closed the petition web site totally. Vive democracy.

  118. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 6:56pm

    as others have said SMC and theotherone, I haven’t advocated genocide or any other aggressive sanctions, merely leaving them to support their own nationals, you know what a state is actually for. The continual need for handouts suggests that there are systemic problems rather than accidents

  119. theotherone 21 May 2010, 7:12pm

    Oh right micangel, you don’t advocate starving people to death:

    Is it because they’re black that they ought to get a free meal?

    Why don’t you just call us bigots who ought to pay everything we earn to support a benighted country that has p*ssed away the aid we have given them over 4 decades on luxuries for the elite.

    I can think of so many other places that our money would be equally welcome and actually used for the people it was meant for.

    For 50 years I can remember the begging bowl being held out: how much longer must charity keep entire populaces fed watered and educated? When will they start to become self-sufficient?

    —all quotes by yourself so p1ss off with your ‘I never said anything!’ nonsense. No go off and play with your Big Racist Self.

  120. Sister Mary Clarence 21 May 2010, 7:36pm

    Another alternative would be that we focus more aid on providing the infrastructure to support themselves. Perhaps also we could ensure that those providing aid in the country are not working counter to each other. Fundamentalist Christian churches from the US at work in the region are not furthering equality on any level.

    We could perhaps stop arming African nations to the teeth, and at the same time cease arming those who wish to overthrow elected governments on the continent to.

    We could take a unified approach to fostering democratic government under the banner of the UN rather that different countries around the world subverting governments for their own ends. It seldom works out well, as the UK government plant Mr Mugabe as shown in Zimbabwe.

    Little my little we could help to wean countries off aid and out of poverty.

    We won’t though of course and we will sentence generations to come to poverty, starvation and suffering. While a few vile old queens sit b1tching about the wrongs of a helping people on a continent that they can’t be bothered to actually find out anything about.

    Most of you live elitist lives without the slightest concept of the daily struggle to survive faced but much of the continent of Africa.

    It is an insult to listen to you bleating on about equality. You have not the slightest idea equality and clearly no interest in finding out.

  121. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 7:49pm

    you know, theotherone why don’t you just fcuk off you sanctimonious
    selfrigheous cnut.

    You are so generous with my money supporting a barbaric regime, the sort of regime you would scream and bitch about had it been white. You are the racist here because youn can’t admit that black regimes aren’t actually perfect.

    I question why NOTHING has improved in fifty years and I’m the bigot. I observe that things are getting worse for LGBT people, but that’s OK with youi because their oppressors are black.

    Your double standards nauseate me. While I am at least consistent with my contempt of those who would harm us, yours is contingent upopn where it happens.

    And SMC, as individuals we can’t actually achieve a lot except express our anger, just as you have done at individuals here who dare disagree with you. So wear the vile old queen label yourself: your hatred of anyone who dares disagree with you is palpable

  122. How sad this has degenerated into an argument. how many of the people arguing have actually been to Africa? It’s NOT racist to say that many African governments misuse or misappropriate aid.

    It’s not necessarily a case of give aid or stop aid. Maybe like most situations the answer is somewhere in between? Aid should be focussed and supervised to prevent misuse and to make sure it reaches those who need it, but the reasons that aid is needed at all should also be addressed.

    As for this awful sentence, again, I say that EDUCATION is crucial. Without education, other things fill the gap – be that superstition/accidental misinformation or evangelical religions. The people celebrating this sentence weren’t all malicious – many were just ignorant or had been misled.

  123. Mihangel apYrs 21 May 2010, 10:37pm

    deep breath:
    theotherone & SMC

    I admit you thoroughly p*ssed me off, but I said things that were not helpful. I also git tied into a cycle of self-justification, that wasn’t useful. In hope you can take the same breath and move on.

    I was, and am, angry at what is happening to these people, but remain concerned by how the continent of Africa is developing. They appear to be reproducing all the foolishness that the west worked its way through quite some time ago, and haven’t learned by our mistakes, when the evidence was before them.

    However, I saw the institutions but couldn’t see the individuals: I want babies to die as little as you, it just makes me so angry when the corrupt filch from our contributions to buy the nice things for themselves.

    That Africa has problems is indisputable; the reasons are not simple, and not solely the fault of the African politicians.

    Can we play nicely, sometimes disagreeing, but without invective?

  124. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 10:48pm

    you know, theotherone why don’t you just fcuk off you sanctimonious
    selfrigheous cnut.
    You are so generous with my money supporting a barbaric regime, the sort of regime you would scream and bitch about had it been white. You are the racist here because youn can’t admit that black regimes aren’t actually perfect.
    I question why NOTHING has improved in fifty years and I’m the bigot. I observe that things are getting worse for LGBT people, but that’s OK with youi because their oppressors are black.
    Your double standards nauseate me. While I am at least consistent with my contempt of those who would harm us, yours is contingent upopn where it happens.
    And SMC, as individuals we can’t actually achieve a lot except express our anger, just as you have done at individuals here who dare disagree with you. So wear the vile old queen label yourself: your hatred of anyone who dares disagree with you is palpable

    If I may answer some of the points you have raised in your rant at thotherone:

    Firstly, the only person that has identified an ‘us and them’ black/white situation is you. You have indicated that you think I only care about the poor in Malawi because they are black and seeming you feel that it is a case of blacks sticking together, and not that I simply care because they are poor. Its actually a little sad that you apparently can’t see past skin colour in an issue like this.

    As for your money supporting a barbaric regime I think you’ll find that it does that in a number of places around the world, although in fairness nowhere quite as poor as this, although a number of others far more barbaric.

    I don’t think anyone has given any indication that they believe black regimes to be perfect, or even near perfect. There are undoubtedly black people running bad regimes, but the regimes are bad AND the people running them are black, and NOT that the regimes are bad BECAUSE the people running them are black.

    I am glad you are questioning why nothing has improved in 50 years (although in many countries including Malawi I believe things have.) First question to ask here surely is who actually controls the aid programmes. It is generally not the recipient nation. Countries with national interests generally provide aid and support to a degree in line with their national interests. Another question to ask might be whether they are any hurdles hampering recipient countries from adopting UN approved policy on human rights and equality. If so, what is the source of these barriers – internal or external? Following on from that, what action has been and can be taken to address this issue. Once to start to ask you realise that more of the answers actually lie in our court rather than that of the recipient nation. If we are educating and up-skilling, we should be leading on these issues. It is clear that we have dropped the ball in Malawi somewhat (as with Uganda) in allowing religious extremist from the US to infiltrate the country and run amok with messages of hate and intolerance.

    With regard to double standards, I would suggest that you on the one hand banging on tirelessly about our right to equality, to live freely and openly as equals with the straight world does smack a little of double standards when you appear to be advocating allowing poor and vulnerable people in Malawi to suffer and die because of the decision of a Malawi court.

    It is a particularly interesting point because you go on to point out to me that, “as individuals we can’t actually achieve a lot”, but you seem to feel that those individuals living in one of the world’s poorest countries, on under a dollar a day, with 12% of the adult population living, and attempting to support themselves, with HIV, and with almost no education to speak of, should be responsible for the actions of the judge, or be able to in some way have influence over government or judicial policy.

    Your views are a disgrace.

  125. Sister Mary Clarance 21 May 2010, 10:53pm

    Mihangel apYrs – our last postings crossed – yes, you’ve taken the point that it is about individuals, not institutions – we can play nicely

  126. theotherone 22 May 2010, 12:26am

    If you want my analysis of Aid – and i’ve dragged this around for about 15 years polishing it like a stone – then it’s, at it’s heart, an issue of excess Capitol. Let me explain…

    In classic Marxist thought an Industrialised Capitalist Society generates more money that is healthy for itself so needs to invest this in the process of industrialisation in other countries so producing, in time, the same problem. Eventually there’s nowhere to invest the money and Capitalism collapses and a happy population of Prols dance in the street and one tractor meets another tractor and have baby tractors and so on and so forth…

    Willy buggers those Capitalists though. You see they foresaw this problem and invented AID. ‘We’ll give you money if you buy arms from us,’ say’s country 1 to country 2, ‘fair enough says country 2.’ Country 1 pumps in so much money they destabilise the economy of country 2 and riots break out in the streets. ‘Bloody hell!’ says country 2 ‘it’s a good thing we’ve got those guns/ tanks/ attack helicopters’ and promptly uses them instigating even more instability and therefore more need for ‘Aid’ and more revenue from Weapons sales.

    A solution to the problem of Excess Capitol which even makes the Donor Country (country 1) look good.

    And Mr angel: it’s OK we can all get a little hot under the collar from time to time. If the conversation was cooler I’d have thrown this in as my explanation for Africa’s woes. Consider it done now ;-)

  127. “By sentencing these 2 men to death for being gay (14 years hard labour is a guaranteed death sentence) Malawi is telling the world that it no longer requires our aid.”

    Therefore millions of people should starve to death. Die of disease. That is called Genocide. You prove you are even worse than the judges that pass such despicable sentences by condemning a who nation to its death.

    This coming from people who demand tolerance! I’m just glad that those that comment on PinkNews are but just a minority of uneducated, misguided creatures that do not speak for the majority of the gay community.

  128. Letter from Cary Alan Johnson, executive director of IGLHRC to Malawi’s President Biugu wa Mutharika:

    http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/resourcecenter/1130.html

  129. Anti-gay laws in Africa are product of American religious exports, say activists (The Times)
    More here:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7133431.ece

  130. Mihangel apYrs 22 May 2010, 4:50pm

    after the storm:

    for Uganda and Malawi

    aid through NGOs of proven integrity (we have to accept that some cash will go astray along the way)

    EU to impose sanctions on the rulers to remind them that we don’t have to deal with them

    freezing of foreign assets (eg bank accounts) of the instigators of this mess

    suspension from Commomwealth until such time as they startvaluing all their citizens

    UN statement reiterating universal declaration of human rights

    keeping the f*king evangelists out

    keeping a leash on international big business, with punative fines on them for corrupt practices.

  131. Mihangel apYrs 22 May 2010, 4:53pm

    oh and more publicity of what their cultures used to hold dear before the the men in black got to work on their societies

  132. The entire world is now concerned with this issue.

    Approaching these developing countries through the ‘buffer” of an NGO that we trust is as good a way to get involved as any.

    I have sent Steven and Tewonge a card via snail mail; I’ve written to my MP here in Canada; and I’ve made a donation to Amnesty.

    This, to me, is the kind of action that I can take without getting caught up in the political and economical situation of the country that does confuse me.

    Still, the passionate debate I’ve seen on this thread did convince me that we are all deeply concerned with this issue and that we do struggle to understand and to be understood…and that, as Martha Steward would say, is a good thing.

    @ 131 Pavlos: great link, and this religious fanaticism to be addressed further

  133. I think people on this blog need to read Zambian economist Dambisa Moyo’s book “Dead Aid”. For the people saying that Britain had no role in Africa’s problems need to crack open a history text book. Neo colonialism still exists. The so called “Aid industry” are just corrupt. The problem for the African continent is NOT more aid it is about the distribution of the aid. Dambisa Moyo is correct the aid not humanitarian aid but the other forms of aid NEEDS to be cut from corrupt African governments. It is clear that in Malawi gay people’s human rights are being violated.

    Dambisa Moyo’s argument is, if the aid was cut then the African governments would be FORCED to do more to help their citizens.
    I think it is sad to say BUT something urgent needs to be done. The problem for the African continent is complex. The issue here is Africa has the natural resources, the western world has a role in African politics.

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