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Christian street preacher arresting for calling homosexuality ‘a sin’

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  1. But the Bible DOESN’T say homosexuality is a sin. Nowhere does it criticise consensual same sex relationships between adults.

  2. Confused Drag Queen of East London 4 May 2010, 10:54am

    Goils, goils, goils, I’m so confused! Pleeeeeeeeeeeease help!

    I just don’t know WHICH way to vote!

    Labour’s done so much for us all in the past 13 years.

    That Mr. Clegg seems so good and he’s always mentioning all the homophobia there is – especially round here, I can tell you!

    And David Cameron is promising to make this country decent again.

    So I just don’t know WHAT I should do!

    Pleeeeeeeeeeease, please advise this dizzy queen!

    All my thanks.

    Much Love,

    Lypsinka Glamourama.

  3. Christian or Muslim fundamentalists, they’re all the same!
    Anyone who believes all the rubbish written in these so called holy books is not capable of rational thinking.
    If only the world was free of organised hateful religion.

  4. davevauxhall 4 May 2010, 11:18am

    I see this sort of preaching as basically trying to get others to think badly of gay people. It is uncomfortable and infuriating to be preached at in a public space or on a bus and really inappropriate in the case of Green who preached at a pride day. But I think many people now see it as extremely rude and arrogant and self-righteous and it reflects badly on the preacher. I’ve heard the arguments for free speech and I’ve heard one argument that made some sense. It made the analogy of smoking where you will effect someone else’s health. The rights of someone to smoke wherever they want are restricted when they interfere with the rights of others to have clean air. Similarly the rights of homophobes or those who believe homosexuality is wrong to preach their views publicly are restricted when they interfere with the rights of others not to be denigrated or verbally abused. Clearly there must be some line drawn look at the Westboro Baptists who cause a lot of misery and harm picketing funerals etc. I don’t know where to draw it though. I think I believe that there should be consequences to free speech and it seems to me that many religious people are unwilling to take the consequences. SO when they denigrate homosexuals they claim they are not homophobic or do not hate homosexual people but are only following their religious beliefs and therefore should not be criticised. They wish to criticise others yet believe themselves to be above criticism because their strongly held beliefs should be prioritised above other because they are religious. This is inherently unfair, particularly when many of their criticisms are made purely on belief and selective interpretation and appear completely contradictory and hypocritical.

  5. So has UK become a police state where thought and belief are restricted? I am an openly gay man who surely doesn’t like being told I’m going to hell. (Does anyone?) But I strongly support a person’s right to say what’s on their mind. I’ve heard similar reports out of Canada, which I condemn just as much. I’m glad USA has the 1st Amendment. I might disagree with a man’s beliefs and statements, but I will defend his right to speak in – publicly or otherwise! I can only hope that eventually this law gets overturned, either by the courts or by Parliament!

  6. It is not only the “Fundamentalist Crack Pot” street preachers who are calling Gays sinners!

    Prospective Tory MP Philippa Stroud believes Gays are demon possessed, and can be cured through prayer . . .

  7. Lypsinka and anyone else who is still undecided how to vote, or who doesn’t know how to vote tactically in order to keep the anti-gay Fundamentalist Christians OUT, go to the following site and stick your postcode in the box up in the right-hand top corner.

    And then please pass this message on to everybody you know by email, by text, by twitter, by fax, by phone!

    Keep those Christian Fundie Tories OUT of power or we’ll be demoted from second-class citizens to third for sure.

    The nation hasn’t changed. Listen to the homophobic chanting on the football terraces. Remember how Labour’s legislation has now made it safe for us to report homophobic abuse . . . and the level of homophobic abuse that has consequently been reported is horrendous. Remember the anti-gay hatred we have seen on websites like WestHamOnline and Yahoo Buzz and dozens more where the people of Britain anonymously post their hatred. Remember those gay men who have been kicked and stabbed to death over the course of the last year.

    We don’t need a Tory party in power when we now have MASSIVE evidence they are funded by Fundamentalist Christians and that there are at least 37 Fundamental Christians standing at THIS ELECTION!


    Vote however you must in your constituency to keep the Tories from winning in YOUR constituency. The less constituencies that the Tories win, the less the likelihood of them seizing power.

  8. This is a bloody battle, guys, and we’re fighting for our lives! And the Cons are fighting like rabid dogs. We need to pull our socks up right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. Hi Lypsinka, Confused Drag Queen of East London (2)… My suggestion is just this: you’re voting for your confidence about what government would do for your future, not what it’s done in the past. But I sympathise… taking a hundred policies (most of which we disagree with) and having just one vote to spend: it’s the most grotesque over-simplification we’re ever asked to make. :-|

    On a completely different subject… it’s the public order act again. Not specific hate legislation, just the public order act. The same act which was used against me for swimming in the sea wearing a hoodie, one August bank-holiday.

  10. This man getting arrested is a huge over-reaction.

    There are far more dangerous fascists walking the streets.

    Philippa Stroud – Tory Parliamentary candidate has engaged in the physical and psychological abuse of vulnerable people in her care (trying to cast their gay ‘demons’ out) yet she has not been arrested for her crimes.

    The police should be focussing on truly dangerous bigotry seen in neo-fascist scum like Philippa Stroud, and leave the harmless god-botherers like this guy alone.

  11. He got arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin? really? There’s tonnes with a much bigger stage that have said worse. Even though I so hate the term this sounds a bit like political correctness, I believe in freedom of speech on the basis it don’t restrict others’ freedom of speech and this I wouldn’t of said restricts others’, if he was more insulting or threatening then I could see why he would be stopped but he was just expressing (in my opinion idiotic and anti-Christian) beliefs.

    Also to add I can see this really back firing on us, for it can be used to say that we have more rights than straight people, we don’t, we have slightly less and deserve equal rights but it could be used in a way to say we have more freedom of speech.

  12. He said he told the officer: “I am not homophobic but sometimes I do say that the Bible says homosexuality is a crime against the creator.”

    Does the Bible say that? I really don’t think it does say that in the Bible at all.
    I wish Dale McAlpine and people like him would actually read their Bible’s before harassing everyone about what they imagine is written there.

  13. Tim Hopkins 4 May 2010, 12:36pm

    I would caution against accepting news reports on this kind of thing at face value. It turns out that the reports on the case of Shawn Holes are wrong. He was not arrested for saying that gays would go to hell. Strathclyde Police told me that he was arrested for repeatedly shouting “Homo” while preaching, in a deliberately inflammatory way, and for shouting similar inflammatory things aimed at Muslims.

    In my view, that should be taken as seriously as repeatedly shouting “Paki” in an inflammatory way in the street. Depending on the details, it could be a crime, if the intention was to stir up trouble or alarm and distress in passers-by. People should be able to do their shopping without having “Homo” shouted at the them repeatedly.

    The Police had mobile phone footage of this, so felt the evidence was clear. The evidence was never tested in court though, because Mr Holes chose to plead guilty, and then turned round and press released that actually he was innocent!

  14. “Strathclyde Police told me that he was arrested for repeatedly shouting “Homo” while preaching, in a deliberately inflammatory way, and for shouting similar inflammatory things aimed at Muslims.”

    My first reaction was that he is entitled to his free speech… once free speech isn’t about advocating a criminal act towards another. If you are correct Tim, then this is completely different from the story reported in PinkNews…. screaming ‘homo’ at people is hardly free speech if he was doing this with intent to offend and incite violence.

  15. It’s a real shame that most people believe in the bible that was compiled by the church and the weird thing is that at the end of the bible it says that anyone who alters the bible that they will suffer all that it says there. Does anyone have the complete bible? Of course the church left out many writings such as the book of Judas. So my thing is, how can you believe in something that has been drastically altered!?!

  16. so a Christian lied? that is unsurprising! Why do so many don’t understand that there’s no point tolerating intolerance?

  17. Hodge Podge 4 May 2010, 3:07pm

    Arrests like this just give right wing martyrs ammunition. I think the best way to deal with these preachers is to laugh at them.

  18. Tim (13) said:

    “… He was not arrested for saying that gays would go to hell. Strathclyde Police told me that he was arrested for repeatedly shouting “Homo” while preaching, in a deliberately inflammatory way, and for shouting similar inflammatory things aimed at Muslims.”

    I agree with you, Tim. If this is actually what happened, the arrest is in order. Having a point of view, albeit offensive, and presenting it; is entirely different from shouting abusive names and insults at passers by.

    1. finally someone one with sense you claim if as reported the arrest was facism is correct but equally as someone agrees that gay sex acts may be a sin any one shouting homo if true, is a far greater sin, and probably actually causes the creator actual distress rather than what 2 misgudied but in love consenting same sex adults choose to do with each other. Id choose to argue its not offensive though if a person is not intolerant of others believes to call the actuall act a sin (sin not synonym for evil it means transgression) no one calls people intollerant of stealers for saying small theft is atransgression so why for a voluntary sex act that one could choose not to do but just kiss and hand hold with the object of their affection? Saying gays are going to hell for even having hot gay sex everyday is however offensive because its pertinently not even what the bible says let alone a reflection of reality. The “evil” sins in said book where the stuff that cause actual harm to others.

  19. Timotito if i stood in the street shouting that black people should be enslaved again and that they’re going to hell i would be arrested and hopefully fined
    This is no different
    Religion is not an excuse to abuse people and freedom of speech does not cover racism and homophobia because they are not a right, they are a wrong

    Would you also support the muslims who shout “baby killer” at our troops returning from Afghanistan Timotito
    Or is that not freedom of speech?

    1. actually second case yes. first case no. Although the going to hell bit should be allowed as that is someones totally misguided and stupid opinion but not actually causing harm to rights of people in the physical relm we live in. Saying someone is gong 2 hell is offensive but not illegal, saying someones actions like gay sex or steallig are sins (transgressions, sin not a synmonyn for “evil”) isnt even offensive if a person is trully tollerant. A trully tolerant non religious gay person would think they are entitled to view anything they like as a trasngressions as long as they dont think its an actual serious trasngression on a moral equivalence with murder or adultry.And would continue to comit said transgressions arguing legitamately that it might not even be a transgression and in any case if it is its not the thing some supposed deity is going to really care about as theyd be more interested in people treating people decently than consensual sexual ethics between adults.

  20. My first reaction was to endorse Timotito’s & later Tsuchan’s comments (5, 19) (as those who have read my comments in the equality laws thread might expect) but if the preacher had set out to be deliberately offensive and provocative, as Tim / Will’s posts (13,14) would suggest, I cannot support his actions.

    It would be a bad day if free speech were to die (I am impressed with Peter Tatchells position on such matters) but also it would be helpful find out what actually did happen as there seems to be conflicting accounts – I would be happy to pass on to people in “don’t like equality laws” and suchlike network anything that shines a light on what did happen.

  21. Surely a sad day when someone is arrested simply for their opinion.

  22. Paul Brownsey 4 May 2010, 5:23pm

    Could it be that some prosecutions of this sort are initiated to discredit gay equality?

    I think I’d draw a distinction between merely saying it’s sin and saying God is going to send gays to hell for this. The latter smacks a bit of incitement to violence, since it seems like the anti-gay violence of the heavenly gay-basher is being held up as an example.

    1. Agreed though not incitment to violence it is far from the actual christian gospel to choose some minor “sin” and say we are going to hell for it if we dont repent… Bible says only god knows who goes to hell but things like murder etc are much more important than consensual sexual ethics between adults, even if the actual act is after all a “sin” who really knows any way if it is.

  23. An Cat Dubh 4 May 2010, 5:49pm

    Drunkenness? Psalms explicitly praises God for making booze >_>

  24. Hmmm, the perennial Voltaire “I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it” debate.
    This one always leaves me in two minds. In this instance, according to the article it was only when asked directly for his views on this subject that he gave an honest (if bigoted) response, which to my way of thinking does sound like entrapment/ thoughtcrime.
    If he was actually shouting that message indiscriminantly to passers by, that would be slightly more of a morally grey area for me.
    I for one couldn’t be arsed to ‘defend to the death’ someone with the verbal tact of Bernard Manning at a BNP rally, but equally you can’t pick and choose who has free speech and who doesn’t.
    John Stuart Mill’s ‘harm’ principle applies, but that’s open to a wide range of interpretations to.
    I generally let these things pass without calling the police to arbitrate unless there’s an explicit attempt to garner public support for an aggressively homophobic cause. For the most part a well thought out counter-argument and dismissing them with the contempt they deserve should be enough.
    Besides, in arresting these wingnuts, you only make martyrs of them.

  25. #21 – “Surely a sad day when someone is arrested simply for their opinion.” – but its not his opinion. He thinks its the omnipotent and unseeable gods opinion.
    I guess you think it would be okay for the KKK to preach that black people were inferior to white people – which led to them being hunted and murdered in America, and NAZIS to preach that Jews were fithly degenerats – which led to the holocaust in Germany. Therfore, why is it sad that a CHIRSTIAN has been stopped from saying gays are an abomination? – preachers like him have led us to be repressed and made into criminals for the last thousand years, and you and the other people on here think its sad he can’t try and make that happen again. Wake up.

  26. SimonM wrote above: “Philippa Stroud – Tory Parliamentary candidate has engaged in the physical and psychological abuse of vulnerable people in her care (trying to cast their gay ‘demons’ out) yet she has not been arrested for her crimes. The police should be focussing on truly dangerous bigotry seen in neo-fascist scum like Philippa Stroud, and leave the harmless god-botherers like this guy alone.”

    Well said, SimonM! You are one hundred per cent correct.

    And yet we have an ostensibly gay man called De Villiers on these threads at the moment telling us in lordly tones that we are all over-reacting to the doings and the agenda of Tories like Philippa Stroud!

  27. PLay the world’s smallest violin Jay 6-pac (if you even had half a pac, you would be man enough to tell the person in question what you think of him, surely)

    I support anyone’s right to preach homophobia or racism if they must – argument and ridicule is all you need to sort them out.

  28. Mary Flying Eagle Ray 4 May 2010, 9:55pm

    Right on!!! This is not a matter of free speach, enciting hate,in many cases leading
    to murder,rape, beatings and MORE, IS THE AIM OF THESE PHONY preachers.Of course
    arrest, the least of what they should be subjected to.If they could be sued each
    time they slander,arrested, and really held accountable,some of this hate against
    our community might stop, or lessen. I can not understand how some in our community
    seem so forgiving, and speak of freedom of speach. If I should stand in hate mode
    shouting n—-,n—–, or other hate inciting out bursts, you bettcha I would end up behind bars, that is IF I escaped with my life.
    Hiding behind a bible does not mean you are not accountable.

  29. jckfmsincty 4 May 2010, 10:49pm

    Who don’t the Christians hate?

  30. Jay’s right
    MarkH – it’s not his opinion as he cherry-picked from the bible

  31. #27 adrian/sam. What the fcuk are you going on about? Weirdo.

    “I support anyone’s right to preach homophobia or racism if they must. ” – thats cause you’re homophobic and racist, or a christian. Or just plain fcukin stupid.

    And it takes me 150 sit ups a day to keep my 6pac, don’t insult my 6pac. But having a 6pac doesn’t make me a man you fcukwit, just means I get more sex than you obviously do.

  32. “And it takes me 150 sit ups a day to keep my 6pac, don’t insult my 6pac. But having a 6pac doesn’t make me a man you fcukwit, just means I get more sex than you obviously do.”

    LOL…. and you have so much to offer too with a six pack, if that’s what you define yourself as. I suppose I don’t define myself with a six pack, but I always figured brains were a more definable attribute than the results of 150 sit ups a day, so maybe I can do so by calling myself “Dean IQ 167”? Or “Dean Smart As Hell”? Or “Dean I’m not brainless gym bunny but I’m damn clever”

  33. de Villiers 5 May 2010, 3:37pm

    > there’s no point tolerating intolerance

    If that were all there was to it, many contributors to this board would have to engage in self-flagellation.

    We all have internal and external preferences. The internal preferences relate to what we want to do ourselves – own a car, buy a house, have gay sex etc. External preferences relate to stopping other people from following their internal preferences – preventing gay people from having gay sex, preventing people from worshiping whomever they chose, forbidding rough acts between consenting adults.

    Whereas we should be tolerant about what people want to do for themselves, we should be cautious with respect to those people who want to prevent others from following their internal desires.

  34. He would be carrying on no end; up a ladder indeed. People want to go about their business in town without being confronted with someone up a ladder spouting scripture; the church is the place for that. The police, community police or otherwise was quite right to have him arrested. Bloody disgrace.

  35. As much as I am a total atheist and a gay man and I find the guy’s homophobic attitude offensive, at the end of the day, you cannot lock someone up just because you find their views offensive. This is what militant fundamentalist religious people do. They try to shut people up who disagree with them. But freedom of speech is far to valuable to start amending. We already have hate speech laws which are against hateful or violence inciting speeches. This guy just said ‘ homosexuality is a sin’ which in the context of the real world is fantasy drivel because a ‘sin’ is nothing with any application in the real world in a secular society like ours. It wasn’t hateful or violent, just fantasy. Why weren’t there any arrests over these Islamic fascists who wanted to ‘throw gays from Big Ben’? Hmm.

  36. He was a public nuisance, a bigot, just like that woman in Rochdale.

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