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Former Archbishop attacks judge’s ruling on Christian counsellor

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  1. I found Call-Me-Dave’s performance on the third debate last night FRIGHTENING! He showed a ruthlessness, a bullishness, and a firmness which really scared me.

    I see that Carey has warned that this issue of Christians not being allowed to disobey the law in order to go along with what’s written on their bits of old parchment will lead to “civil disorder” (quote).

    So if Call-Me-Dave gets in, then I believe there is a real possibility that being a church-loving Tory he will gave in to the demands of Carey and the Christians and all of we LGBTs will be pushed down the ladder by one or more rungs.

    We’re still not treated as first-class citizens in this country. Carey will ensure that Cameron demotes us from second-class to third.

  2. Eddy, agreed! And after Cameron’s interview with Jeremy Paxman last week Paxman was overheard describing Cameron as a “bit of a smooth bastard”. Well, I’d say Cameron is a smooth and slimy bastard! I can just hear him saying to Carey: “Yes, My Lord! Don’t you worry! I’ll take care of it. We’ve got to get things in this country back to how they used to be under Margaret, back to decency and common sense!” I can see it coming.

  3. Vincent Poffley 30 Apr 2010, 11:08am

    Mr Carey is clearly a stupid man. If he knew the first thing about political philosophy he would realise that a secular state, conceived along classical enlightenment liberal principles, is actually the very best kind of state for ensuring the liberty of religious people to believe what they want. It never ceases to amaze me how short-sighted many of the religious are in this sphere – they should be championing secularism rather than decrying it.

    Any state which diverges from the secular ideal necessarily privileges the beliefs of one religious group over another. Far from being “neutral” on matters of religion, a non-secular state is arbitrary, partisan and unfair. This is what Lord Justice Laws was saying, very eloquently, in his judgement, and the fact that Carey simply repeats his ill-informed objection after receiving such a firm rebuttal can only indicate that he lacks the wit to understand it. The whole idea of secularism stems from a horror among early modern thinkers at the barbarity of the European wars of religion in the 16th-18th centuries – if Mr Carey decries secularism, that is what he is saying we should go back to.

    What if an Aztec sanguinary priest claimed that he should be allowed to murder people, because ritual human sacrifice is central to his religion? Would he be offered “the right to act out his religious beliefs in public”? If not him, then why you Mr. Carey? Why should his illegal and criminal desires be frowned upon, but yours given preferential treatment?

  4. the Lord Justice is right, a secular state is far fairer then a religious one as Carey repeatedly proves with his rantings and scare-mongering, the counsellor is meant to do a job without their religion getting in the way but he failed to do that so he was in the wrong, Carey is defending the cherry-pickers yet he would fall foul of a country if it really was run based on the bible!

  5. How pathetic. So these judgements against christians could lead to civil unrest eh? So much for a peaceful religion.

    How can laws be made by fictional books that openly discriminate? It’s time these religions realised they should correctly be consighed to the history books. There out-dated attitudes have no place in a decent progressive society.

    It is every religious persons decision to weither they want a part in a far balanced society that represents that of the 21st Century, Or if they want to remain lost in the Dark Ages. The tide has turned and no amount of trying to control it will work.

    They are the only people that are stopping humanity progressing and they seem destined to take all with it. It’s very sad.

    If only they could open there mind and see what this big wide world has to over. It is truly remarkable. Even more remarkable though is why those in religion would choose not to see it.

  6. John(Derbyshire) 30 Apr 2010, 11:43am

    Sadly most Toris I know think this mans views are very “sensible”.
    Watch out for more of this.

  7. Wasn’t George Carey Archbishop when the ‘church-loving’ Tony Bliar came into power? He may have switch which religion but the acts the same.

    Didn’t stop Tony Bliar. Though it did Stop Ed Balls and Harriet Harm-em. If it didn’t stop Bliar I don’t see it stopping Cameron.

  8. @Squidgy: are you trying to make a point? Your post makes no sense.

  9. Carey saying these decisions could lead to civil unrest sounds awfully like a “rivers of blood” speech, I wonder if the good doctor would see the similarities and implications of his words.

  10. I think my posts 5 and 7 both have points, or are you going to make this personal too?

  11. Just wait for the tories to make the christians more powerful again when they get power.
    All those pro tory gays are gonna have a lot to explain when they inadvertantly give power back to morons like carey.

  12. You know, we have some real religious nutcases in the United States but your former Archbishop Lord Carey is miles and away crazier in his logic. When someone from the religious hierarchy threatens that there will be civil unrest over the granting of equal rights to gay people, I know they’re screwy. The only unrest I see seems to be Lord Carey squirming in his seat as he sees his power being eroded.

  13. Charlie:-

    Why are you linking my nickname to a page on Twitter when I don’t even have a Twitter page account?

  14. ignore this sad troll called Squidgy – he’s a sad lonely fcker with a mental problem

  15. @Squidgy, Blair was wise enough to keep the church at arm’s length… remember his famous saying, “We dont do God”. Secondly, Blair did not switch (or change) religion, he switched denominations… learn the difference. Catholicism is a type of Christianity (which is the religion)…

    As for Carey, he is a liar to keep insisting that this country is founded on christianity. In actual sense, Britain was a pegan country right upto 800AD. and when the Kings took over the Roman church… ongoing, the country switched denomination from Catholicism to create Anglican which Carey, the rigtheous, heaven-bound man belongs to… However, he seem to forget that his church was founded because Henry VIII wanted to dump his wife, & marry another… can he tell us what the bible says about that?

    They all know what the bible say about homosexuality but none of them would say what the bible says about Henry’s attitude and then dissociate theirself from that church first before picking bones.

    I find it amusing and silly of Carey and the Christian Legal Centre, but above all, also sinful according to their suppossed guide book to continue to insist that people can take money and not offer the services they are paid for. My simple suggestion to them is to move out of this planet or accept that others exist. They cannot pick and choose what service they offer in a public serving office. If they dont believe in it, then they shouldnt apply to the jobs.

    Carey is no different from a Taliban and he is the one encouraging civil unrest and creating bias in society.

  16. What’s the point with your post at 11:45 Squidgy? I don’t see what you are getting at?

  17. Actually ‘Damian’ I am a Very Happily civil partnered man. But you are right on one thing, I Do suffer from Depression so you right I do have a mental health problem I guess.

    What’s your point?

  18. Chester:-

    my point was that Tony Blair was/is a commited Church on Sunday Christian until he switched to the Catholics. Lord Carey was Archbishop when he came to power. If Mr Blair didn’t let the Church get the better then I don’t see why Mr Cameron would now. Like Mr Blair, I think Mr Cameron is his own man. I, personally, don’t think he’ll let the churches dictate just as much as Blair didn’t. Besides that Mr Cameron did say last week, and was the first to say so, that he felt the churches opinion on homosexuality, abortion was wrong. That was my point.

    I mean sure I could be wrong but all the signs for me point to me not being wrong on this.

  19. dave wainwright 30 Apr 2010, 12:48pm

    @ Charlie , Squidgy rarely makes sense,

  20. Carey is a repellent old nutter. When he was Archbishop he attacked gays on ‘Biblical’ grounds while advocating the ordination of women and was too thick to notice that his hypocrisy was fairly obvious.

  21. Carey hasn’t understood the basic point regarding “holding and expressing” views and acting on those views in the public domain. “Expressing” does not mean withdrawing public, paid for services at your whim from someone whose actions you do not approve of.

  22. “However, he seem to forget that his church was founded because Henry VIII wanted to dump his wife, & marry another… can he tell us what the bible says about that?”

    Indeed! :D I love the way Carey suggests a neutral state is best, but is too stupid to see that all his points actually demand a NON-neutral state where Christianity rules.

    And as for his suggestion that Christians should be allowed to “manifest their faith” – well now, Fred Bloggs is a Christian and he firmly believes that God created everything on this earth, therefore it can’t be owned in any way. So lock your doors, Carey because Fred’s on his way to liberate your possessions.

    See, we’d all call him a thief, but that’s because we’re nasty people who are discriminating against him because he’s a Christian. Christians are SPECIAL. They don’t have to obey the laws of the land. Or so says Carey and the rabid Christian Institute.

  23. Rob Hedley 30 Apr 2010, 1:05pm

    Why are you all ganging up on squidgy? You might not like or agree with what he has to say from time to time but you should at least give him the same respect you would expect for yourself.

    To be honest those of you that participate in the continued witch hunt of squidgy because of his political / personal views behave no better than a bunch of school yard bullies and i’m getting sick of reading such comments on these message boards.

    If you can’t articulate your argument without resorting to insulting someone then i dare say the majority of us aren’t interested in reading it!

  24. “Why are you all ganging up on squidgy?”

    Because he has insulted just abut everyone here at one stage. Most find him offensive and a bully. Thats why.

    Treat others how one expects to be treated yourself. Show tolerance for a different opinion. Defend your own opinion without personal attack. All these things Squidgy has yet to learn or demonstrate, so he’s kinda asking for it.

  25. It’s a general truism, isn’t it, that if religious leaders attack judges, it’s probably because the judge has made a good decision.

  26. Thank you Rob Hedley.

    Sorry dean you know thats rubbish. I’ve only ever responded to how I’ve been treated. Most people will see that. Clearly I’m not allowed to leave comments that oppose your ideas. Then when it suit you people message using my name. How can that not be bullying?

  27. “..The former Archbishop had sent a witness statement to the court in which he claimed that judgments against Christians could lead to civil unrest”

    What are they going to do? Rattle their tins at us?

  28. Time to call for the disestablishment of the state cult. We don’t need it and our tax pounds should NOT be supporting them. It is incompatible with modern 21st century living and totally irrelevant. Religious belief is a choice, learned behaviour, a lifestyle for those in the clergy, why should we be supporting them and in so doing, prop up their claim to be exempt from the law of the land. In a democracy, everybody is supposed to be equal and treated accordingly. These cults want to see us marginalised and denied any semblance of equality because it conflicts with their beliefs, pure and simple. Since when does religious belief trump and trample on civil rights anyway?

  29. Thanks Squidgy – that makes sense but Blair pandered to the religious homophobes when he went for CP”s instead of marriage, so many figure CP”s are marriage even though they sadly aren’t
    also – don’t let trolls get to you even though they can be a big nuisance

  30. At last the law has put the church well in truly in it’s place! Based on the fundemental right of equal services for all sections of society. For Carey to rant about ‘civil unrest’ as a result of a lawful judgement, shows just how dangerous the church can be when it deals with human rights issues! His comments will help divide the church away from and out of the political agenda. The more they are separated the better! His comments will help here!! Now with Carey on the one hand and the Pope on the other, it now seems the church of all demominations is slowly falling apart as it struggles to even comprehend the modern day society and the equal rights agenda that has been achieved over the past two decades. The more it tries to cling on to it’s ageing believe structure, the more court cases and opt outs its seeks from the government of the day! That in itself gives the clearest example of an organisations that is frankly on its last legs! A just decision from the courts. I just hope that Cameron does not get into power, and then move to change these rulings or offer greater sympathy for the ‘opt out’ religious generation!

  31. “People delivering public services mustn’t be able to pick and choose who they will serve on the basis of personal prejudice. This ruling confirms that.”

    And that’s why the ex-archbishop does not like it: if you are an archbishop that’s the way you operate, especially when you are an evangelical one as he is. (But is woolly Williams, the current incumbent, any better, I wonder. Probably not).

  32. Should you want to see an absolutely BRILLIANT review of Lord Justice Laws judgement in this case, can I recommend to Pinknews readers the blog “Heresy Corner”? Here’s the link:

    http://heresycorner.blogspot.com/2010/04/laying-down-laws.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HeresyCorner+%28Heresy+Corner%29

  33. Chester:-

    Thank you.

    I do believe equal marriage will come, I think news stories like this are paving the way to show that more and more people believe this kind of discrimination is wrong and that equality is very important to all. It’ll be a little time yet but not far off.

  34. This from a guy who dressed in a purple frock to go to work!!! Huh!!

  35. Scott of Sydney 30 Apr 2010, 3:34pm

    I am waiting for the day that Australia gets the same attitude.
    Here we have the Christian Lobby still running the agenda.
    Their latest effort is the Infamous Internet Filter they have got the government to run.
    The one that reporters without borders likens to the Great Firewall of China.

  36. When Mary Carey left office, he locked the door, but unfortunately, retained the key.
    He was a dreadful, pedantic bore when he wore the mitre but now he’s become a far worse one without it.
    Can someone please shut him up and allow him to enjoy his pension, thus leaving us all in peace.

  37. Michael J K Findlay 30 Apr 2010, 5:10pm

    I am at Gloucestershire University where he is the chancellor. I am disgusted that at the end of my degree when I accept it he will present it. I am not even sure I want to shake his hand and have a photo with him. I have public attacked him at the University on the LGBT Society twitter and campaigns one.

  38. Rob Hedley nobody’s “ganging up” on Squidgey. He’s just one of those people who likes manoeuvring things so that he can play the martyr! People have just got the measure of him, that’s all, and they’re telling him. There’s no “ganging up”.

  39. Michael @#37, do you know that usually you can organize things so that you do not have to be present at the degree ceremony? Can’t remember but there’s some Latin term for it. What it means, is they stick your name and the names of others who have elected not to be present in the back of the programme booklet for the day. “In Absentia”, or something like that. So why don’t you try and very quietly arrange a mass-boycott amongst fellow-students?

    The university will become concerned when they receive advice from a massive number of students that they do not wish to be present at the ceremony and then people can write to their Deans and explain why: that they do not wish to receive their degrees from George Carey. When Carey turns up on the day and finds the hall half-empty, he’ll be given some excuse, not the truth. But then you can write to him, care of Lambeth Palace (who will pass your letter on) and explain WHY the hall was half empty.

    The only difficulty in all this will be students having to convince their parents there’s no need to kit themselves out in fine clothes and turn up for the degree ceremony!

  40. Peter & Michael 30 Apr 2010, 5:28pm

    seems like, if Carey gets his way it will be back to medieval times, does not burning at the stake come to mind?

  41. Poor old Carey has never got over the inferiority complex that he owed his appointment as Archbishop due to political spite. As I understand it the last stage of appointing a new Archbishop of Canterbury is that the Prime Minister of the day is given a choice of two names – one the preferred candidate that the church wishes to appoint and a complete outsider. Tradition was that the PM would appoint the church’s choice. Not Maggie Thatcher. She had enough of her conscience being jangled by the outgoing Archbishop Runice and could see the same threat in the very cerebral Dr Habgood, then Bishop of Durham. Maggie chose the evangelical nobody. Carey knows this and has been an embarrasing blunderer over the years whose grasp of logic seems to be diminishing even more. A sad character who people generally ignore!

  42. The Tories love old bigots like Carey and they’ll be doing everything that he and the vile Christians Institute want if they get in…it’s every gay persons solemn duty to protect their rights and those of other minorities by voting Lib Dem on Thursday…if the the Tories get back in Section 28 will be nothing…they’ll turn the UK back to the way it was under the evil old hag Maggie…LGBT’s will become 3rd class citizens and the christobigots will be in control…and the UK will be bankrupt financially and morally

  43. Squiffy…….You have got to be the most insufferable bore ever to have defiled these pages.
    You are petulant.
    You are a whiner.
    You are very obviously a stranger to the “inglysh” language.
    You don’t read any quality newsprint and probably think that by that i mean the sun.
    You think Wikipedia is the be all and end all of factual information and you have been completely taken in by Callmedaves Law and Justice racist homophobic Tories.
    You really ought to get out into the real world (if you can find someone to escort you) and see how sane people live.
    Posting utter drivel on a gay website doesn’t from a dark room in your parents basement isn’t the real world and only serves to have anyone unlucky enough to have read you drivel have a good laugh at you.
    Come to think of it, that’s about your only merit on here, to give up all a feeling of superiority. You would make a sponge feel superior squiffy and you really ought to get some help.

  44. Lord Carey is the epitome of ‘all gas and gaiters’. A buffoon. Mind you, I can’t help thinking the queen might have been encouraging the likes Carey and that other egit Nazir-Ali. If so, all three of them have been slapped down in that great British tradition. The law.

  45. “People delivering public services mustn’t be able to pick and choose who they will serve on the basis of personal prejudice. This ruling confirms that.”
    – Derek Munn, director of Public Affairs for Stonewall.

    This is what both Gary McFarlane and Carey fail to understand. Why they fail to understand is anybody’s guess, but I would wager it is a ‘chosen lifestyle’.

  46. For all those that choice to bully and discredit me:-

    Mervyn King has just put my exact thoughts, points I was trying to make. Though I don’t think as drastic as 30 years, I still think the point is Very valid. So whoever is in next time is going to be Very unpopular not matter who it is. They may Very well be out for a Very long, long time.

    So the point is whoever wins the next election will be Very unpopular and will probably be out of government for a considerable amount of time.

    Who do you what out for a ‘considerable amount of time’?

    The Tories? Or Labour?

    Please think seriously about this before slagging me off again.

    Do you want the prospect of nothing happening to gay rights, nothing more, nothing less, with quite possibly a Labour government afterwards?

    Or?

    Do you want the likely prospect of a Labour government, out of office again for a Very long time?

    You decide?

    My Choice… Tory…

    Then maybe Labour?

    shut your eyes if you want too…. I will not!!

    Think very carefully about it people!! Tell me I’m wrong.

  47. Mike 32:

    Thanks for the link. What an eye-opener!! he he

  48. gentle lamb 1 May 2010, 7:59am

    Religion should not be used as an excuse to cause harm
    or the limit the basic rights of others so that we can have special and extra rights.

    http://www.psa91.com
    singapore

  49. ‘For all those that choice to bully and discredit me’ says Squidgey. Cripes, what a self-crucifying QUEEN you are, mate. Go see a doc quick.

  50. #46 My points #43 proven I think Squidgy…………. What on earth are you talking about ….what a load of gibberish!. Have you taken too much medicine again?
    Do you have a carer, cause if not you need one. You should be confined for your own safety before you do yourself a boo boo.
    Take my and others advice and seek help today if possible. You said b4 that you have a partner and if so ask him to get you help…..Reall, now today.

  51. #50 c: Reall… sb=Really

  52. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, predictable as ever!! (Yawn)

  53. Samuel Patterson 1 May 2010, 1:14pm

    Looking through these threads I have to say the amount of bullying and personal insults aimed at Squidgy, just because he has a different view to others on some topics and even when he agrees, I have to wonder… Is this really showing how gay people have progressed? Where someone is not allowed to challenge others? I hate to think what some people who pass through this news site and look through with interest will think because the way I see it, it doesn’t look good on all of us. Hardly progression.

  54. Sorry, can we leave squidgy’s constant tory-love-in and talk about Carey?

  55. Jean-Paul 1 May 2010, 6:40pm

    @48 gentle lamb:

    You said:

    “Religion should not be used as an excuse to cause harm
    or the limit the basic rights of others so that we can have special and extra rights.

    http://www.psa91.com
    singapore”

    In the first place, it’s odd that a christian ex-gay ministry from Singapore, RAINBOW HARVEST, should show up on the threads (see also: Canadian teacher ‘fired for being a Lesbian, Apr 29) of PinkNews on the eve of national elections.

    Secondly, the fact that religion is used, and we can prove it, to harm gays by subjecting them to your anti-gay conversion therapy, or whatever you’re calling it these days, completely contradicts your comment that:

    “Religion should not be used as an excuse to cause harm
    or the (to) limit the basic rights of others so that we can have special and extra rights.”

    So, are you here to distract us from the election campaigns, or to ‘straighten us out’ so we’ll all vote Tory right-wing? he he

    Come in and welcome to PinkNews; we’ll be with you shortly.

  56. Jean-Paul 1 May 2010, 6:56pm

    @53 Samuel Patterson (Samuel, son of the Father):

    Can we presume that you are here with “gentle lamb” (53), or is that me being paranoid again?…m-m.

    The fact is, there is no better learning experience on free expression in a democratic society than posting on PinkNews.

    In other words, blow it out your ear.

  57. Jean-Paul 1 May 2010, 7:31pm

    …55:

    Er….sorry…’gentle lamb’ posted on the exhausted thread entitled

    “Counsellor who refused to work with gays loses appeal bid”,

    and not “Canadian teacher….”.

    There goes another marble!

  58. Hopefully, Carey and Nazir-Ali will both defect to Rome.

  59. For any sad individual here who is still thinking of voting Tory, do read the following article which describes how the Tory Philippa Stroud set up a church that sought to “cure” homosexuals by driving out their “demons”! Stroud, standing for Sutton and Cheam, is in charge of the “Centre for Social Justice”, the Tory “thinktank” which was set up by the Tory Iain Duncan Smith and which guides Tory thinking. Here is further evidence of the REALITY of the Tories. You have been warned.

    http://bit.ly/ajwfIn

  60. Now that’s odd. I didn’t post that link immediately above. I posted a link to the original article in The Observer. But someone at PinkNews has played with my post because they want people to read the Pink News version.

    My goodness. Someone at PinkNews is walking in the steps of Machiavelli.

  61. de Villiers 2 May 2010, 9:43pm

    > For any sad individual here who is still thinking of voting Tory,

    I have posted a message similar to this elsewhere on the board. For those of us who are both gay and on the centre-right, this is a continual difficulty. However, it is worth remembering that parties are, in themselves, coalitions. The Tory party attracts those from the socially conservative and religious right in addition to the social and market liberals.

    The parties on the left do not attract the more socially conservative groups although the Lib Dems have an economically classically liberal wing. The Lib Dems also have branches in the north-west and north-east of England that contain some very religious groups. In some areas, they are almost a franchise operation.

    The fact that parties can be broad coalitions means that there is no ability to generalise about the views its members hold. The fact that there are less desirable and, in all probability, homophobic members of the Conservative Party does not mean that I share the views of the more socially conservative members any more than Nick Herbert, the gay member of the Tory front bench, shares theirs.

    ————–

    I should add that for disagreeing with Eddy, he has suggested that I be assaulted and mutilated. See the comments on this page: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/04/15/gay-mp-alan-duncans-election-posters-vandalised/.

  62. Jean-Paul 3 May 2010, 1:01am

    Bottom line is that christian beliefs have no legal standing, right Eddy?

    And that ain’t no hyperbole.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/british-judge-christian-b_n_559244.html

  63. de Villiers, do you have any sense of humour at all? Have you never seen a caricature? I think the image of you between two trees with your head being stretched in order to allow for a little more cerebral activity in there is rather a good one! :-)

    You give me an uneasy feeling of being one of those rare gay men who is either high on the opium of the incense of High Mass or who aches to throw himself in front of the Queens’ gilt carriage next time she trundles off to Parliament or St. Paul’s.

    (I do believe there may be a royal wedding in the offing, de Villiers. They say there may be a “big announcement” this summer. You had better get yourself ready! Your best pair of velvet trousers or tweeds, perhaps?)

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