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Analysis: Who’s courting the trans vote?

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  1. hope this doesnt offend any trans people, but can anyone tell me what the trans community have got to do with the gay community? i just don’t get the link. never have. i just dont understand why i have to fight for the right for someone to change their gender. i dont want to do that. i just want the right to love someone of the same sex, not change my gender. isn’t it a different issue?

  2. Hate to say it but I have thought the same thing myself.

  3. It has been recognised by the Equality and Human Rights Commission as a different issue, and nothing to do with a person’s sexuality. It was one of the problems when the EHRC was set up. Their remit was specified as eliminating discrimination on the grounds of age, disability, race, religion and belief, gender and sexual orientation. As gender dysphoria is a medical condition they felt they could not include it in any of those strands. As an organisation with a service level agreement that states specifically what you can and, as importantly can’t spend the money on, there was no way that they could include trans people in any of the strands without approval from the people holding the agreement, in this case the government. It’s one of many hurdles trans people have had to overcome.

    Part of the reason they joined LG&B in the first place was visibility. Unfortunately, as one of the groups people feel most at ease abusing, it is difficult for them to stick their head above the parapet, let alone doing so confidently. I thought being gay was tough, and it was to start with, but it’s nothing compared with some of the things that trans people face.

    Having said that there are large pockets of acceptance, in the unlikeliest of places. They just have to find the confidence to go out there and find them.

  4. Are not us trans folk allowed a sexuality too! apparently not according to Stonewall.

    If Stonewall revisionists have not re-written all of LGBT history by now! You will find trans people have been in the struggle for a long time. Be it the riot and protests at Comptons cafeteria in San Francisco 10 years before Harvey Milk even came to SF. Or the stonewall riots started with a trans woman and a butch lesbian.

    Over the last 50 years the promise has been we will secure G & some L rights and come back for the B & T. Well now it time you supported us and what do you say;

    “I just want the right to love someone of the same sex, not change my gender. isn’t it a different issue?”

    Equality, freedom of expression and the right to love and be loved are the same whatever orientation or gender expression you have it is your issue.

    You have had our support now its your turn!

  5. Abi, no one’s saying you are not allowed a sexuality. But I still think it’s a different issue. I’m talking about sexuality, you’re talking about gender. Don’t get me wrong I’d stick up for trans rights, like I stick up for and support black rights, or womens rights, or other rights for freedom – but I don’t fight for those rights because I’m not trans and I am not black and I’m not a woman, I am a gay man. I fight for gay rights, and they are different to trans rights. Being trans isn’t my issue. It’s yours.

  6. PinkNews have had this story about a police investigation into possible corruption at the Glasgow LGBT centre since yesterday morning but they are not running it – why?

    Labour http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/police-quiz-purcell-ally-over-drugs-allegations-1.1020742

    Police quiz Purcell ally over drugs allegations
    Chris Watt
    15 Apr 2010
    Police have questioned one of Steven Purcell’s closest allies over claims of corruption and drug abuse at Glasgow City Council.
    Councillor Ruth Black, a personal friend of the disgraced former council leader, visited a police station to discuss allegations that she was unfairly given a £50,000 council contract because of her connection to Mr Purcell.
    Ms Black, 45, was also asked if she had a role in the supply of drugs in Mr Purcell’s circle after the former leader admitted to having taken cocaine in the past.
    In addition, she was asked about claims she herself had taken amphetamines. Ms Black denies any wrongdoing.
    SNP councillors last week accused Mr Purcell of cronyism over his decision to award a lucrative contract to run a gay and lesbian drop-in centre to Ms Black, ahead of a rival bid from the well-established organisation Glasgay.
    The Nationalists were acting on a tip-off which apparently included incriminating evidence about the council leader’s decision to give the contract to his Labour party colleague.
    Ms Black had run a previous incarnation of the drop-in centre, but quit in December 2007. The centre went bust at the end of last year with outstanding debts of more than £300,000.
    Ms Black was given the go-ahead to run the new centre, angering supporters of Glasgay, which has more than two decades’ experience of working in the city. Ms Black admitted that she went to London Road police station yesterday afternoon after officers contacted her on Tuesday.
    Drug allegations against Mr Purcell, she told The Herald, were “the whole raison d’être” of the meeting.
    “They asked if I was involved in taking them and passing them to other people as well,” Ms Black said. “Well, of course not.”
    She was also questioned over the allegations relating to her bid for the contract to run the drop-in centre, but dismissed the claims as “absolute rubbish”, adding: “I totally deny them.”
    The individuals who had tipped off the SNP, Ms Black claimed, were former staff members of the centre who held a grudge against her. She intends to take action against them, she said.
    “It did become clear to [the police] as I explained the background that it was two ex-employees who had a massive axe to grind,” said Ms Black.
    “That balanced things out, and it was clear it was a very malicious, nasty attempt to get revenge on me.” Ms Black described the on-the- record police interview as “possibly the most horrible experience I’ve ever had”.
    She added that she was “devastated” to be caught up in the situation.
    No charges have been brought, although Strathclyde Police indicated that they may need to speak to Ms Black again.
    A police spokeswoman last night confirmed that the interview had taken place voluntarily.
    Glasgow City Council said it would be “inappropriate” to comment.

  7. @Jay 6pac

    You sum up the selfish attitude of a minority of gay me who have given up on full equality and decided to assimilate themselves into hetro society. Basically your saying we have got a fin vainer of what looks like rights and now we are sodding off without helping you in return and its such a misogynistic thing to do.

    Who helps the gay men who are cross dressers, transgender, gender queer or the gay men who are also trans men.

    Please go off into your new closets with your CP’s and Tory party memberships, and leave the rest of us queers alone!

    I just feel sorry for the majority of decent gay men your misrepresenting Jay 6pac!

  8. Wow !! Calm down Abi ! I also disagree with Jay 6pac’s stance on transexuality, but you don’t have to be so harsh on him ! Most people, even within the LGBT community don’t really understand the transgender people. Jay 6pac, you have to understand that, transexuality, just like homosexuality, is not a choice, but a biological medical condition that you are born with and that you can’t fight against. The same way there are gays that wish they weren’t gays there are transexuals that wish they weren’t transexuals, but they can’t because it’s not something they chose to be. Also you don’t have to be from a group to fight for this group’s rights. There are many white people that fight for the black people’s rights, there are many men that fight for the women’s rights, and the same way there are many straight people that fight for the LGBT rights. These people do this not because they have some interest in defending other people’s rights but because of the decency and benevolence that, despite all the hatred and intolerance there is in the world, I still believe is inherit to the human being.

  9. Christine Rourke 17 Apr 2010, 7:21am

    The “I’m alright Jack” attitude from Jay and John is disappointing but not unexpected… :-(

    I can understand Abi’s annoyance. It is easy to get a bit hot under the collar when one looks at the history of transphobia within the community itself, and more especially when the recent attempts of some powerful people, who wish to push us out of the community, even resulted in us being excluded from governemnt initiatives on Equality.

    Thankfully it is only a minority of LGB folk who don’t understand, or who actually dislike, transgender people. It’s just shame that some are so higly placed.

    Filipe has hit the nail on the head in regard to why we are in this community and why so many transgendered people have worked to support it.

    I feel anger, and my eyes tear up, when I read of another person in the LGBT community being attacked or killed simply for being what they are. I WILL and DO take action and try to help others to stop this. I don’t say “Well, what’s that got to do with me? I’m not Bi, or Gay”. Is a little solidarity too much to ask?

    As to the story, it’s a conclusion I arrived at some months ago. Labout don’t have the moral courage to take on the religious groups who wish to discriminate against the LGBT population of the UK, and I for one feel their current links to the catholic church need looking into.

    IMO the Tories have little or no intent of ensuring further LGBT equality and are only going through the motions of trying to be all things to all men. I can’t say whether Cameron’s claim to be modernising the party is true or not, but I see little to show that it is succeeding at the grass rooots constituency level. Perhaps he needs more time…

    So that leaves the Lib-Dems, IMO.

    Hugs
    chrissie
    xxxxx

    Abi is right… We stood, and still stand, by the others in the LGBT community. It’s not just a matter of sexual orientation. Many trans folk are also gay, in that they are sexually orientated towards others of their own gender indentity.

  10. I thought it was obvious, that people can empathise/sympathise with others who want equality, respect etc and to be treated fairly by people and the laws of the land etc, plus trans people fights for LBG rights and have done for years so why not help trans people?

  11. I’d be very happy not to be considered as the “T” stuck on almost as an afterthought to LGB groups. I am a trans woman, done and dusted years ago, but I was never a gay man. Some posters here don’t understand people being trans, well there’s no reason they should understand. I never understood (and still don’t) the attraction one man may feel for another, there was never anything in male sexuality or in being male which had the slightest interest or attraction for me. I am lesbian and some women can’t understand that, either. However, I don’t then label others as weird simply because I don’t understand them. The “T” has become stuck on to “LGB”, I think because it was perhaps thought easier to throw everything related to issues of sexuality, principally equality and non-discrimination, into one big bag. I’m not sure, wearing my trans hat, whether that has actually benefitted trans people, I think it perhaps hasn’t, instead it has perhaps led many to see trans people as some strange sub-set of gay people and that is certainly doing a disservice to trans people, leading to the “afterthought” classification and an obvious neglect of the real issues faced by trans people.

  12. I think “Jane” needs to take firstly, a long hard look at herself and then a second look at the comment submitted above. A contradiction if ever i saw one.
    On the one hand she opines as to how she doesn’t understand the gay attraction of one man for another, but then goes on to say as to how she is a lesbian.???
    What does she think is the difference. Same sex attraction is same sex attraction. Or is the real nub of her dilemma misandry.
    Was she ever a woman stuck in a man’s body or just a mentally disordered man who hated other men and thought becoming a lesbian woman would solve the problem, which from reading her post doesn’t seem to have worked. She is still very much a misandrist.
    I am not an expert in psychology so perhaps someone else can take up this baton. I am merely voiceing an observation.

    Mind you i think Abi also shows a tendency towards misandry, as reading a lot of her posts will indicste or is it just misandric homophobia.

  13. #12 c: indcste?==indicate

  14. And I agree with anyone who says transsexuals shouldn’t be part of the GLB grouping, which is why I always refer to Gay people rather than the misnomer GLBT, which sounds like it should be on a greasy spoon menu somewhere.
    They claim to have no gay leanings whatever, so where do they fit with our community? I fail to see any relevance.

    .
    .

  15. We are bound together in our challenge to heterosexual society with regard to their dominant definitions of femininity, masculinity, definition of what makes a family and love. We are bound together in our goals to change laws in order to gain equality, rights and protections from harm because of who we are.
    Our enemies look to portray our gender identity and sexual orientation as something that can be “fixed” to meet society’s norms and the majority of religious organisations seek to portray homosexuality and transgenderism as immoral.
    So for those of you struggling to see the link, it is simply that we should all be free to be who we are and to love who we want to regardless of whether we are effeminate queens, butch dykes or fabulously transgendered. Get it?

  16. Abi, I’m not trying to insult you, or any trangender man or woman. I’m sorry if I offend you, which I clearly have. But I am not anti trans as your tone suggests. And Felipe, maybe trangender or gay isn’t a choice, who knows – there isn’t any solid recognised scientific biological evidence yet to support your claims – but that’s not the issue I am talking about – and it doesn’t really matter wether its a choice or not in my opinion – if I have choosen to be gay, I don’t care, I am gay, wether it’s biological or not.
    Abi, I’m not a closet – I came out of the closet when I was fourteen and have been very proactive about gay rights – so don’t patronnise me and make me out to be some right wing fascist – I am not – but you’re right I’m not ‘queer’ – which is a word like the term ‘nigga’ given to the black community by the white oppressors. And I don’t want to assimiliate into hetero society – if you had read any of my other posts you would know that I constantly go on about creating a nation for same sex lovers, where we make our own laws and live as we want to, governed by ourselves – an idea far from assimiliating into hetero society. So don’t tell me to get off this site because I have said something you don’t like, this isn’t your site.
    I am not suggesting that gay people shouldn’t fight for trans rights. I support them. But I don’t think a gay man should HAVE to fight for trans rights as some prerequisite as if its the same issue – its not. Black people fight for black rights, and yes some white people fight with them, but it isn’t called black and white rights, its called black rights. And whilst the black rights movement has led to hispanic rights, it’s not the black and hispanic rights movement – black rights have led to a mixed race president in the US, not a hispanic president, does that mean black people in America are anti hispanic – no it doesn’t.
    I and other gay men do not want to change their gender, which is a transgender rights issue. I want to have the right to love someone of the same gender. And yes if you are transgender and then love someone of the same gender, you would be fighting for gay/lesbian rights. But that isn’t trans rights. That’s gay/lesbian rights.
    I don’t even like the seperate terms ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’ – names given to us by ‘straight’ oppressors. And I think the term bisexual has now become an easy term for young gay men to call themselves to soften the blow for their ‘straight’ freinds that they are actually ‘gay’. I hate the term homosexual, again a label given to us by our oppressors. In my opinion we need new definitions, which we as a community define ourselves as. But getting back to the transgender point………
    Abi you ask about all the ‘gay’ men who want to cross dress, what about all the ‘straight’ men who want to cross dress, am I fighting for them too. I think cross dressing wether by a gay or straight man or woman, is very different to someone who is transgender. Some straight men cross dress on their stag nights for ‘a laugh’ – I dont think any transgender man or woman changes their gender for ‘a laugh’. The cross dressers I know do not want to live as the opposite gender like those I know who have transitioned from man to woman, or woman to man – cross dressing is very different to transgender in my opinion, and again a different issue.
    I fight for the right for one gender to love the same gender and have equal rights to those who love the opposite gender. If you are a woman, wether you were born one or not, and you want the right to love another woman, then those are ‘gay/lesbian’ rights you are fighting for. Perhaps it’s because in my reckoning, if you were born in a mans body and have transitioned to be a woman, then I think of you as a woman, not a transgender woman – you are a woman. If you then want to love another woman then you are fighting for ‘lesbian’ rights. The trans rights you may have to fight for in addition to that – particular legal rights are not rights that a gay man or lesbian woman needs – they are different laws.
    Please don’t think that what I am saying means that I am opposed to trangender rights – I am not – and I will always support and fight for transgender rights. But they are different rights to gay rights, and should be a different lobby. We are not fighting for the same laws.

  17. Pumpkin Pie 17 Apr 2010, 12:45pm

    Homosexuality, bisexuality AND transgenderism challenge traditional cultural perceptions of gender. That’s why they’re all “lumped” together.

    PS: Nice article. I was wondering about this just the other day. I knew the Lib Dems had good policies on this, but it’s somewhat reassuring to hear that Labour are at least aware of the wider problems.

  18. Stewart, I don’t think the ‘gay’ rights movement is for ANYONE who is outside of the ‘norms’ of heterosexuality, there are plenty of more groups who are outside the norms of heterosexuality – why not include them? It could be the LGBTIPCDSMBEG+BD community. But that would be stupid and simplistic, as they are all different groups, needing different rights.
    I think the gay rights movement is fighting for equal rights for someone who loves the same gender as themselves, male or female – not for someone to change their gender – that’s the transgender rights movement – they are different. And being an effeminate man, or a butch ‘dyke’ (which I think is a hideous term to describe a same sex loving woman – comes from homophobic men who tried to suggest woman who wanted to love another woman were ‘ditches’) is not the same as transgender. ‘Gay’ is about loving the same gender, transgender is about changing your gender. They need different things, different rights, different laws – and laws are very sepcific. It does neither the transgender community or the ‘gay’ community any good lumping them together as if they are one and the same, they are not.

  19. Patrick, your understanding is obviously very limited and on a very primary level and you’re incapable of reading a post in its completeness. Nevertheless, I shall respond to you. Transsexualism is about identity, homosexuality is just that, it’s about sexuality. The so-called gay community (and yes, I am also lesbian, a lesbian trans woman) is about issues of sexuality, not about issues of identity. Expressed simply, you might be able to understand that. Since I’m aware of the difference and you seem not to be, I’d advise you to engage mind, however limited, before opening mouth.

  20. Patrick, post 14. There are quite a few trans people for whom the so-called “gay community” is meaningless since the concerns and issues relevant to trans people are often quite different. Some of the comments here and in reaction to other articles in “Pink News” and other publications show how some gay people don’t pass up on the opportunity to show their own rather nasty side and just can’t resist having a go at trans people. They have very short memories, evidently. Still, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest what you or people like you in your “community” think, it all simply confirms even more that there’s no place there for the “T”.

  21. I dont see how you can say my understanding is any less than yours and i am very capable of reading posts in their entirety. I read yours and what i saw was a misandrist rant.
    Whats not to understand..Your patronising explanation of trans sexuality and homosexuality was uncalled for, as was your dig at “the so called gay community and what our “issues” are.
    And i say again whats the difference in being a gay man or a gay woman …none… except apparantly in your head.
    Au contrar, rather than telling me about reading posts , perhaps you should go back and read mine again as i dont want to repeat myself.
    I do say however, its you who has an understanding problem, and i say again you are a misandrist and quite possibly also a homophobe as you have this weird notion that male and female homosexuality are somehow different.

  22. Some of these comments irk me. I’m not transgendered, but that doesn’t mean I should be completely negligent of the discrimination trans people suffer – discrimination that is a lot like the discrimination we have experienced.

    In that respect, I can’t believe how selfish some of you are. Abi1975 is right to be harsh. Wherever and whenever someone’s rights are being violated, we should stand up even if we are not belonging to that label.

    Not to do so makes you a hollow person. Prick any human, and do we not all bleed? Do we not all know what it is like to bleed?

  23. Jay re-read my post. Our mutual causes are gender definition and definition of family – it’s not about anyone against the norms of heterosexuality because the gay movement is not inclusive of bestiality or child molesters and nor should it be.
    It strikes me that many of the anti trans inclusive posters here are the same folk that protest whenever camp or effeminate men are portrayed – you are simply much more comfortable in a world where gays are “straight acting” and conform.
    To Abi’s point, the original Stonewall riots were headed by drag queens and transgendered – folk with no place to hid and no wish to. We had the same enemies then, and we do today.
    Our community, for want of a better world, is fabulously diverse; it’s a pity some of you can’t embrace that.

  24. In my experience of this issue, there are transgender people who also do not want to be lumped in with LG&B, seeing T as a gender issue and LGB as sexuality. It’s a shame that none of them seem to follow these strands and post about it, leaving it to a gay man to speak up, potentially facing abuse for airing the view for them. Something I’m quite happy to do.

  25. @Jay 6pac

    Gay men are where they are today thanks, in large part, to lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people. We aren’t the same, nobody on the LGBT spectrum claims we are the same, but we’re lumped in as the same perverts by the right. We aren’t all cut from the same stone but we are allies, bonded by decades of struggle.

    We’ve lifted you on our shoulders to where you are today, now it’s your turn. If you say you’ll fight for gay rights then fight for LGBT rights. Anybody who fights for gay rights alone, to the exclusion of L,B & T is a coward and a traitor.

  26. Patrick, post 21. Where did I say that there was any difference between male and female homosexuality? Your ability to understand IS deficient. As for your feeble display of obviously barely understood socio-psychiatric terms and your labelling and name-calling, frankly “am I bovvered”? As for your putting my name in inverted commas in your earlier post, I take it that is your rather puerile attempt to deny me an identity you seem to feel it is within your power to bestow or withhold. Pathetic….but, then again, “am I bovvered”. It may have escaped your feeble intellect but in fact we do agree (but perhaps for different reasons) that there’s no place for the “T” in your LGB “community”. Reason on that and on its paradoxes, should it not be beyond your ability to do so.

  27. JMcK – I strongly agree that lgbt should be promoted together and am sickened by the anti-trans prejudice of the clowns on this site but you are living in a fantasy world if you think that “Gay men are where they are today thanks, in large part, to lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people.” – if you look at who invested most work and effort into the organisations of the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s throughout the UK it was predominantly gay men. Of course there were a few lesbians, a few bisexual people and a few trans people who made important contributions but they were always a small minority. As I say, I am all for lgbt inclusion (except for the bigotted outbursts from Abi1975) but history contradicts who you write about lbt contribution.

  28. Final answer to “Jane”. Your abusive language speaks volumes about you and all your “socio-psychiatric” mumbo jumbo doesn’t change the fact that you come across as a bitter homophobic misaddress, who thought that becoming a lesbian “woman” would somehow “cure” your revulsion of yourself as a man and more importantly a gay man, whether you were conscious of that homosexuality at the time or not.
    Whoever counseled you at that juncture in your life has a few questions to answer, were you willing to put them.
    Your line “wearing my trans hat” should tell you something about yourself. I cant say, “wearing my gay hat” as i am gay …period. It’s not something I can step in and out of as I see fit, as you seem to be.
    Exactly what hat are you wearing when posting on a Gay site I wonder.???
    I would hazard a guess that it’s your man-hating sub conscious homophobic one.
    Re read your own original post #11 and you might just if your rage allows, have a revelation.
    My putting your name in inverted commas indicated that I was aware of your identity crisis and turmoil and was not an attempt to deny you and identity. You simply confirmed that analysis when you spoke of you “hats”

  29. #28 c: misaddress sr= misandrist

  30. Oh dear, that’s put me in my place then.
    So I was always a “misaddress” (????),
    a gay man in denial, who was a victim
    of poor counselling, and who was never
    really trans? Oh, and I shouldn’t ever,
    never ever say “hat”! Well, that’s me
    sorted out, then! Thanks, Patrick.
    Send me your business card and I’ll be
    pleased to direct other “misaddresses”
    to you so that they can benefit
    from your knowledge and wisdom.

  31. Jeez, where do you all get off calling me and one another. I aint calling anyone. I haven’t been rude to anyone. I’m just telling you my opinion, not calling anyone a clown, or fascist, or hollow….blahblahblah. You’re just trying to bully me into your position. Well I haven’t heard any responses that mean anything except for Alan#3, just a load of emotional manipulative nonsense. “we all bleed if you prick us”, “Anybody who fights for gay rights alone, to the exclusion of L,B & T is a coward and a traitor.”….blahblahblah. yawn.
    There’s nothing trans phobic or anti-trans about saying trans rights are a different issue to gay rights as some of you suggest. They are different issues, wether you like it or not. I am not trans phobic. I couldn’t care less if you want to change your gender, but I don’t. I am not transgender. I am gay. They are not the same. And I do not stand on the shoulders of transgender. Where do some of you get off on saying that gay rights are in the large part due to trans people. That’s just not true. You are very deluded. You make out that all gay rights have been brought about by a few trans outside stonewall in the 70′s. Trans rights are not the same as gay rights, that’s all I am saying. Gay people should not be forced into fighting for trans rights by a small minority of the community who bully the rest of us into their position.
    Whoever thinks that because I am gay I have to fight for all people whose rights have been violated is just living in a dream world – take off your crown of thorns and fight for your own rights – whatever you are. I am gay, I fight for gay rights. If you are transgender you need to fight for transgender rights, and if you are gay and transgender then you need to fight for gay rights and transgender rights. And if you are black, gay, transgender, disabled, and jewish – well, you’re probs gonna live a very hard life.

  32. Actually, the call to fight for our rights is usually the exact opposite to #31, and expressed in that gas-chamber poem, you know, when I didn’t speak up when they came for the jews because I’m not a jew, and didn’t speak up for the blacks as I am not black, etc. so when they came for me there was no one to speak.

    Do you believe in equality for all, or just for you? I am not trans, and am not courting a trans vote in any election, but would fight for the rights of trans people as I believe we should all have a right to be in this world, to not be abused just for our sexual orientation, gender identity, or other identity. Some are not more equal than others, or rather they should not be. Such an egalitarian society is yet to be achieved, but it is something we should ALL aim for, if we want to be respected ourselves.

  33. #31 Finally someone says what we all, as gay men, wanted to say but were afraid of the screaming nellies like Jane, Abi and Mattb…..
    and remember guys .. The Law and Justice homophobic Tory party WILL retrograde our rights, so Vote tactically May 6.

  34. Enough Already with this Scots thing. Nobody cares else they would have commented one way or another. You hav posted this non story on every thread for days now and no comment… Not tell you something? What is your interest in the story by the way? also its about the hardest bit of text i ever had to read.with the possible exception of the whole “god” thing in school.

  35. Patrick, the hysterics are coming from you.
    That aside, haven’t you understood yet?
    You can keep your “community”,
    you and those who think like you,
    what do you think, that all trans people
    are just dying to be part of your club?
    Not me, I have better things in my life.
    Enjoy yours as much as I am mine.

  36. #36 Eh?………

  37. Patrick, #36 too difficult for you, oh dear.
    Let me get the Ladybird Books primer.
    Now, are you listening carefully………

  38. Patrick, I didn’t respond to your wonderfully insightful comments on why I was posting on “Pink News”. The implication of your remarks seemed to be that “Pink News” is something that “belongs” to your “community”. Well, that’s all right by me, I couldn’t care less. However, if “Pink News” chooses to print stories about trans matters, then trans people are likely to comment (I rarely comment here on anything else). Perhaps you ought to take the matter up with “Pink News”. However, perhaps you ought also to address why you, given your stated views, show such interest in trans matters. Perhaps your self-vaunted skills at personality analysis could usefully be directed at yourself.

  39. Poor Patrick – some people who claim to speak on behalf of others (“Finally someone says what we all, as gay men, wanted to say …”) are offensive but poor old Patrick just sounds daft.

  40. Some still have nothing to say ‘cept post abuse, non comments and cut and paste fill stories from regional rags.

  41. Pumpkin Pie 18 Apr 2010, 1:53am

    Homosexuality, bisexuality AND transgenderism challenge traditional cultural perceptions of gender. That’s why they’re all “lumped” together.

    That’s one of the main reasons why LGBT should stay LGBT, but I totally forgot the other one.

    Our common enemies group us together. In their eyes, we’re all the same, simple as that. This being the case, it would then be foolishness for each group to ignore the other and try to fight the same enemies alone. We are stronger together. Always have been, always will be.

  42. Patrick James 18 Apr 2010, 2:13am

    I feel that philosophically, morally and politically the rights of transexual and transgender people are one with the rights of gay men and women.

    We can think of these issues as being about identity primarily. The gay man or woman is a gay man or woman whether they have sex with a member of the opposite sex or not. The identity has very little to do with the action. A celibate gay person is just as gay as one who has sex with a different person every week.

    Transexual and transgender are also about identity. Here the physical dimension is through dress or the shape of the body. However what is important is the identity.

    Hetero-normative people also have an identity which is to be respected of course. It is my belief that liberation for LGBT people is also liberation for hetero-normative people.

    The problem LGBT people face is when the state or society wishes to impose discrimination based on identity. It used to be that LGBT people were variously criminalised or medicalised and fortunately that era is coming to an end at last.

    However a new threat is coming in the form of a state that seeks to advantage what is sees as an ideal way for people to conduct their affairs. If you like an ideal identity for people to have.

    The Conservative party tax break for some married people is an example of this. Even though it includes civil partnerships, the key thing about this policy is that it will establish that the British state is to openly prefer and advance some kinds of people to the detriment of others.

    I think this is quite dangerous and something which LGBT people along with hetero-normative people must fight against together.

  43. The starting point (in terms of how we are discriminated against) for defining trans people is gender identity, but we are just people and have jobs, families, sexualities etc. Our sexuality is not defined by our transness. The starting point for defining gay people (in terms of how they are discriminated against) is sexuality, but gay people have jobs, families and gender identies. There are straight, gay and bi trans people, and medical understandings of trans start from accepting the core gender identity and respecting it. If you have a brain at odds with your body you are in for a difficult life the way society is at the moment until you can find the personal strength to do something about it. Unfortunately also there is no single definition of trans with a clear ‘outcome’ as it is a spectrum condition which manifests itself in different ways and to different degrees, as do physical intersex conditions.

    Because we are a smaller and more diverse community, being allied with LGB on the basis that we are all discriminated against on the basis of “difference” can be useful, but requires understanding on both sides. And whatever anybody says it is how it started, before parts of the gay community started to think they could accomplish more by distancing themselves from the trans community, see here.

    Some gay men used to feel they should have nothing to do with gay women, and vice versa. But that particular argument for ‘separateness’ is history now

  44. Yes trans people are different from gay people but so are bi people and then you could probably go into more complex seperation of bi people and then follow that up by sub dividing gay people, they are a very widely varied group. Ok Trans people are more different than bi people but my point is why seperate us, aren’t we a stronger force and bring more equality (assuming we win) to a bigger group which in my opinion is a good thing.

  45. Mihangel apYrs 18 Apr 2010, 6:25pm

    main stream society has always lumped the queers, lezzies, and trannies together for ease of persecution: we transgress their heteronormative sexual identity, we are sexually anarchic in that we don’t follow their rules.

    While we don’t necessarily have a complete community of interest, we have the fundamental ones: “I want to be safe”, “I want to live my life as I wish”. The bashers will not ask which one of the initials one falls under, if you’re not straight you’re “other”, and therefore a potential victim.

    That is why we fight on the same side – together; not because we necessarily even like each other, but because a lot of people can make a bigger difference than a few.

  46. To QQ

    I have just seen your posting 16th April with regards the Scandal with the manager of the LGBT centre in Glasgow and the posting you done.
    Pinknews was sent this story on the 9th of April as well but still not seeing anything about it…it saddens me that Pinknews picks and chooses its stories, but this is one story that everyone should know about
    In so far as Ruth Blacks comment about Ex staff holding grudges against her….veryone one whom i know on the lGBT scene cant stand her….
    She has done nothing for the LGBT community here in Glasgow apart from take the P*** out them all shes getting her up and commence….No Smoke Without Fire i say.

  47. @SimonQQ

    Whose history?
    Throughout the 70′s and into the early 80′s, gay men and lesbians went their own way and did their own things. Bisexuals and trans people had to fight without any kind of umbrella representation. Lesbians, in large part, were took up by the women’s movement and scarcely bothered to write the history of gay men. Gay men had their own gay movement and scarcely wrote the history of lesbians. Trans people went our own way and had a primitive, TS-only movement. Bisexuals, in large part, tended to identify as gay or as queer to get represented. An early queer movement was seeding, but it was partly tied to the feminist movement and partly in contradiction with it. An unfortunate circumstance. If you’re only reading gay men’s history then of course you’re missing over a decade of struggle.

    The relevant thing to take away is that – decriminalisation notwithstanding – we only began to see real legislative action in favour of equality and parity when those disparate movements began their slow re-coalescence in the late 80′s. Now that we are firmly LGBT again in the way that we were whilst under fire in the 50′s and 60′s we are seeing both the disparate struggle and the unified struggle bearing fruit. What we need to do now is extend that solidarity to all, rather than nominating a group behind which we ought to hoik up the ladder.

  48. Well thanks for trying to help me and others understand the link between being gay and being transgender, which as your comments reveal, there isn’t one – other than fighting for equality. Seeking equality for being gay is very different to seeking equality for being transgender, as is seeking equality for being black, or being disabled, or being jewish, or being a sado masochist, or any other minority group. And the fact that we are both a minority group seeking equality does not mean we are part of the same community and so should be fighting together. It just leads to confusing arguments that have no consensus.
    And not fighting for black rights does not make me racist, not fighting for jewish rights does not make me anti semitic, and not fighting for disabled rights does not make me anti disabled. I also wish one day that we lived in an egalitarian society – but I know from studying history, that is not how power works and is a deluded pipe dream for a naive mind to believe. My point – not wanting to fight for trans rights does not make me anti trans – it’s just not my issue. And why stop at fighting for trans rights as well as gay rights. Maybe some of you should create a group with the initials LGBTBPISMJBJGHDKEUFH+FK, to include all minority groups who are repressed based on their identity.
    I’ve never wanted to believe this before, but I now see there is no gay community, we can’t have one, we are not allowed one because the trans community want to be part of the gay community and the majority of gay men have no say as to wether they are or not – if we say we want our own gay community you call us fascists, hollow, clowns, hetero normative, straight acting – you emotionally bully your way into the gay community with a big sob story. The trans comments on here seem to me to be disparate individuals who are even arguing amongst one another unsure even what being trans is. I think it’s depressing that the majority of gay men and gay scenes and gay communities have been hijacked by a trans minority who always have the loudest voice, and who then say gay people wouldn’t have any freedoms if it wasn’t for transgender. Which is not true. Why don’t transgender leave gay people to fight for themselves and we will see how quickly we get gay rights – because we are fighting for different rights, wether you like it or not, they are different issues, we are a different group of people with different needs and desires.
    I think trans rights being lumped in with gay rights have held back the fight for gay rights, I think you have stood on our backs to get your rights, not the other way around as some of you suggest – I don’t think disparate groups with different issues fighting together pretending to have solidarity makes a bigger difference. I think it confuses the issues for those who have the power.
    I will leave you alone now pink news readers to argue amongst yourselves about ‘your’ history. And as a gay man, like so many of my gay freinds who can’t be bothered with the gay community because they are made to feel like they don’t belong to their own community by the trans community, I bid you farewell. Better get back to my apparently ‘hetero normative’, ‘straight acting’ lifestyle – whatever that means, (dont quite see how not being effeminate or wanting to change my gender makes me hetero normative) and as Abi says leave all you ‘queers’ to get on with it. Well done transgender folk, you win again, one less gay man to fight for gay rights because you have bullied your way into our agenda.
    And btw, the gay rights we have enjoyed over the last decade isn’t because there are trans people in power, it’s because some relatively ‘straight acting’, ‘hetero normative’ gay men and women have got into governments throughout Europe. The only ‘queer’ trans people I see with any power are on the doors of bars and clubs checking the guest list or entertaining people on a saturday night with some Judy Garland songs.

  49. Speaking as a gay man who has gone out of his way to fight for trans rights, I can say that a recent experience has shown how self-absorbed some trans people can be. This particular person cares little about who she upsets, including many influencial people who were trying to help push the trans cause. However, her attitude of ‘what are you going to do for me’ rather than ‘how can we work together’ has upset the majority of those people. Doubtless this attitude has pushed trans rights further down their agenda. That’s not transphobic, that’s idiotphobic.

    Whilst I appreciate that every trans person has had a difficult journey, and have had to face opposition that would make some people crumble, the attitude shown by some does nothing to aid their cause. Jane, Abi1975 and others, I feel your pain, and have done from a very early age. However, the polemic displayed in your posts on is less likely to make me want to help you. If that makes me transphobic in your eyes then so be it.

  50. Jay, Alan, who is asking you to “feel my pain”? Read my post #11. I am also lesbian but putting that aside and speaking only for myself as a trans woman, I don’t need to feel part of a “gay community”, nor do I need or seek or expect help from that “gay community”, nor have I had any help from your “gay community”. Whatever has been achieved by and for trans people has been the result of their own efforts and not as a result of anything done by the “gay community”. I’m not screaming to get into your club, keep it, in every sense!

  51. #51 What are you doin whinging here then…Aren’t there any “trans” sites where you can rant and spout your misandrist homophobia til your hearts content………….

  52. Jean-Paul Bentham 19 Apr 2010, 3:00pm

    @ Alan, 50:

    “… I appreciate that every trans person has had a difficult journey, and have had to face opposition that would make some people crumble…”

    Agreed 100%.

    We gay guys may think we have had a difficult time, and in many ways we have, but our struggle pales in comparison to the complex journey, the obstacles, and the unexpected and brutal consequences faced by Trans every single day. We cannot come close to imagining it; the least we could do is admit it.

    So much courage, determination and compassion; that’s why Trans-sexuals are such a powerhouse of encouragement for those of us who are afraid to be ourselves…and such precious friends to have if we are fortunate enough to have earned their confidence.

    Love you more than words can say, Lady Tanya!!

  53. Enter clown, stage right. Yes, you Patrick.

    I wish you lot would get yourselves sorted out.
    Some of you are saying that there’s no place for trans people in your “gay community”. Yet, when I say that I agree, that I don’t want to be part of the “gay community”, then I get accused of spouting “misandrist homophobia”.
    Get a life, please!

  54. Jen Marcus 19 Apr 2010, 3:24pm

    Jean-Paul Bentham ,regarding post #53: What a lovely comment Jean-Paul, Thank You! I have read many of your previous posts on this, and many other subjects and you strike me as very intelligent,sensitive and compassionate human being.

    Jeni

  55. Mihangel apYrs 19 Apr 2010, 5:44pm

    to various people through this thread: don’t focus on individuals who may be total pains, consider principle. Gays, lesbians, bis, trans and all other people whose sexuality and/or sexual identity doesn’t fall into the majority mould (heterosexuality) are in the same boat, just different seats (as it were). We pursue different goals save the fundamental ones (eg. “why should I apologise for living?”)

    It costs us nothing to look out for each other, even when that other is a total pain. Any advance for one group is another chip off the superiority of hetersexuality

  56. #51 Jane

    It’s that kind of attitude that puts the back up of those of us that would support trans people in their fight for equality. Nobody asked me to feel your pain and, you’re obviously in so much of it that you lash out at anybody, even those that consider themself a friend of the trans community. How to win friends and influence people.

    Are you really, truly saying that I should not be involved in the fight for trans rights because I’m not a trans person? Fine by me. It’s a hassle, to be honest, and done for no gain whatsoever on my behalf. I do, or should that be did, it because it’s an altruistic thing to do. How often do you help people other than yourself Jane?

    That was a rhetorical question because I’m giving up on this thread. You are obviously intent in insulting as many people as possible. Can’t you see the damage that you are doing?

    Obviously not.

  57. Have I got this link wrong or something??? The article was on which political party best supported trans people. I read the posts and guess what?? another poxy mud fight between gay and trans people who seem to have more chips on their shoulders than harry ramsden!!
    As a trans woman I fight through my trade union for the right for ANYBODY to be themselves without fear of discrimination or harassment. I just do it through the LGBT movement because thats the only viable vehicle to get it done. And to get back to the point of the article, the Labour party will get my vote because although far from perfect, they have done a lot to help diversity achieve the current level of protection and a future tory government may try and bring back electric shock treatment to cure us of our illnesses.
    I now lay my neck on the block as I’m sure someone will bite my head off for daring to hold an opinion………

  58. We need to stand together, not bitch about who can or cannot be in our “gang” because if the BNP ever take power because we’re too busy fighting each other, they might decide to do away with the lot of us and then where would we be??

  59. This is the best expression of what its like to be transgender

  60. Jean-Paul Bentham 19 Apr 2010, 10:36pm

    Good one, Abi1975, as an expression of pre-surgery transgender, right?

    Then, presuming the surgery has gone well and there is no constant physical pain, there’s finding a place to live and work, to shop and socialize without having to look over your shoulder in every parking lot

    … without pepper spray

    …or better yet, without a pistol….only a whistle.

    Here’s hoping the BNP will not be counting one Trans vote.

    @53, Jeni:

    Merci. Perhaps the more positive attitudes of some of the posters on PinkNews have worn off on me.

  61. Me an intersexual girl born this way, if u look at me bet u see nothing as a girl, as i’m not undressed can not not stand it. LGBT sometimes even LGBTI yeah it exists,,, and nothing wrong with it. It is simply put a roof for many hats u got it ?? A roof to meet to be happy and not a ground of bashing minorities within minorities. I don’t have to understand gay, I do respect do the same with us it is so easy and let us party. sorry for the typos
    writing on a french keybord from Paris grrrrrrrrrrrr

  62. My post..#28 applies even more to Jane the more we hear from her……

  63. Just in case there is the merest smidgeon of doubt about who “Jane is on this thread. I dunno – but she isn’t me. :)

    I did post a couple of (hopefuly) more peaceful comments…but both times, the Pink News server ate them without putting them up. Bastard!

  64. An election won’t change anything; only a revolution will.

  65. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Apr 2010, 8:32am

    @64 Jane Fae:

    If you right click on the word “Comment” on top of the comment box, your entry will re-appear as you wrote it.

    Then you can try to unscramble the key words again and “Say It!”.

    Should work.

    We’ve all been there!

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