A rare voice indeed. I still think the Pope should be Banned.. He has no place in a modern 21st Century Society.
I wonder if these clergy will attempt to tell the pope to mend his homophobic ways when he “visits” the UK? Its all very well and very good that they have made this statement but if the Top people in the Holy See insist on calling gays the reason for every problem in the world, what’s the point. Old Ratzy should be firmly told he has no right to criticise our laws and institutions. After all, I doubt he will call QE 2 a heretic and an apostate because she is of the “wrong” religion and claims to be head of the Church (mind you given that he’s uset most people he meets he just might! That would be a good enough reason to deport him!)
I once had a very long written debate with a VERY senior RC cleric about the Church’s attitude towards Gays. He quoted Document issued by The Congregation of Faith on Homosexulaity and a passage to me as thus: ” according to the teachings of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” AND GUESS who signed this one off? Old Ratzy himself; this was in 2003 SO whats happened in the last few years to put the wind up his cassock over us then? Did he see sumit nasty in the Vatican Woodshed>?
“I wonder if these clergy will attempt to tell the pope to mend his homophobic ways when he “visits” the UK?”
Well hopefully Ratzy will be arrested for crimes against humanity when he arrive.
Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens claim there is enough evidence to try the old Nazi are are checking out the best way to arrest Ratzi the Nazi when he arrives.
perhaps if he think he’s going to face trouble, he won’t come!!! Even better!!!
Lets just ‘pray’ (see what I did there) that the work Richard Dawkins is doing to try and get the monster a.k.a the Pope arrested for crimes against humanity.
Ha! Cardinal Bertone in that picture looks like a stoned Will Farrel!
Mike, you quoted the following words from Pope Benedict, or Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then:
“according to the teachings of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”
These words, or others almost identical, have been repeated several times in Vatican documents on the subject. The key word, however, is “unjust”. Ratzinger would insist that the discrimination that HE wants to see against “men and women with homosexual tendencies” [sic] is JUST discrimination, in contrast to the “unjust” type. The last document of Ratzinger’s that I can find in which those words appeared was his “Considerations Regarding Proposals to give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons” (2003), in which he called on politicians to oppose all legislation giving any kind of legal recognition to gay relationships, whether they were called “marriages” or not.
He also calls for us to be treated with “compassion”. That word is derived from the Latin words “cum” (= with) and “pati” (= to suffer). So what exactly is this supposed suffering of ours with which he calls on others to sympathize? Reference to his 1986 “Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons” makes that clear. He supposes us to be suffering from a “condition” which, although it is not a sin, “is a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” For “with compassion” read, at best, “patronizingly”.
Well, well, well now they are fighting among themselves, having lowered and degraded themselves to the level of Islam, practices child sexual abuse and violation of human rights everyday. Keep going RCC you will destroy yourselves soon enough.
So “Father Marcus Stock, general secretary of the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, said: ‘There is no empirical data which concludes that sexual orientation is connected to child sexual abuse.’”
Good! So we have a member of the senior church hierarchy finally beginning to consider this issue rationally! Good! Keep thinking rationally, Mr. Stock, and eventually you will come to the conclusion that your damn church is found on nothing but utter fiction and nonsense . . . and that will enable you to finally start living according to REALITY!
Some few years later – and by now well into puberty- I discovered the word ”homosexuality”.
I put two and two together and came up with the explanation of how I had felt since I was about 4 and promptly, like some country bumpkin, toddled off to the Father
Superior’s office and told him that the ‘new word’ that I had discovered, ”HOMOSEXUAL” – ‘applied to me’, I thought – and ‘what was his advice’.
I could as well have hit him in the goolies with a baseball bat.
I was out of that seminary and back home near Blackpool within the week, a Wednesday it was, with a note of the name and address of a doctor in Liverpool who would ”administer treatment” and ”cure” me of this ”dreadful illness”.
I went to Mass on the Sunday, in my home parish church, pondering all this and pondering that I still had to tell my mum why I had left my religious studies and left them so abruptly at that.
Half way thro’ the Mass in St. John’s, Poulton-le-Fylde, the church in which I had served as an altar boy for years, at every ‘house’ almost, damned near every service, so enthralled with it was this dumb cluck…halfway thro’ this Mass, I thought “Actually, no, ta, I’ll not bother with the electric tricks…”
I got up and walked out of the building and out of the institution, that is, the church and the Church – and have never been inside a church since; dumped it, at a stroke, 50 years ago.
I coped with it all on my Jack Jones-Some from the early, early sixties and told my mum that I had left because I was a dumbo and could not do the studies.
And not until many years later when it was de-criminalised did I actually tell my mum the real reason for my having left the religious life and also the practice of it…why I had chucked the baby AND bathwater out the ckuffin’ back door.
I was probably a coward in not telling her the very week I returned home – and I am the first to admit that – but I was more of a coward on account of having to go to a doctor for the electro-trickery; that, combined with having to tell my mum that I was ”sick” and had to go to Liverpool for this ”specialist treatment” because Father O’ Fudgepiece Sawdustballs, in the seminary, had said so.
Besides, I did not feel especially ”sick”; did not look ”sick” and was not ”sick” at ckuffing all.
It was easier for me just to tell her that I was a clodhopper.
Many, many skeletons in the catholic closet! He ain’t called ratzi the nazi for nuttin,’ and Tarciso is his hermann goering.
Mine at #11
The wires are all gummed up and it is not taking the rest of my diatribe; aren’t you the lucky ones..!
So I will have to ‘diatribe’ another day.
cont. from #11
Penance he is on about now..?
How very touching.
So have a car-boot.?
Didn’t think so.
Adopt a style reminiscent of Mahatma Ghandi, dhoti and sandals for starters.
I might listen to what you had to say, then..
Christ had 3 nails and a rag at the end.
You have what precisely?
You need HOW long to tot it all up…!
So knob off; don’t come here and while you are at it, drop Addams-Family-T’arsole-Bertone, the dead donkey; the Cardinal from the Land of the Living Dead; Cardinal Zombone; she’s doing you no favours at ALL..!
And to top it all, as another correspondent earlier up, DEESIDE WILL at #8 quotes, I am “intrinsically morally disordered” since it (homosexuality)is a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder”.
That is rich Joe!
Take a look in the mirror, you and Georgie Boy both.
It leaves me with nothing but the wryest of smiles, half a century down the line that now, decades later, 2010, it is all falling from the sky, right at the feet of today’s hapless, hopeless, helpless hypocrites.
Hypocrites yesterday; hypocrites today; hypocrites tomorrow… and ever more will it be so.
What has shocked them is the rapidity with which this lot has been bowled at them; they have suddenly had to realise it is not 1710 or even 1910.
Not for doin’ it you cop it; it’s for gettin’ found out; be you MP’s, popes or a binman….and it is around the globe in seconds.
Where’s Bernard Breslaw?
Is it Bernard Breslaw R.I.P. ..?
Let’s have a new ‘Carry On’ film.!
He, as Cardinal Bertone Braindead, would be brill.
Charles Hawtry as Pope Joe; dead ringers the two of them; type- casting or what!
And a young, chunky Jim Dale could be Pope Hawtry’s P.A., scrummy Georg Ganswein.
‘Carry On’ Up the Vatican…!
Or how’s about resurrecting the Keystone Cops..?
I wonder how many of the ‘best’ I would get on each hand from the laughingly named Irish ‘Christian..?’ Brothers for all this profanity of mine.?
I’m brickin’ it.
Here’s me thinking Laurel & Hardy.
Bing Crosby and Bob Hope for the Christmas season.
There must be a place there for the Aussies…Lady Edna, where are you, dear?
You’re on a roll, Keith, c’mon, more, more, more!!
As long as the Church & religion have a voice, we will never see or hear the end of vilification, prejudice, homophobia etc towards us.
It highlights the double standards of the church that they think they are above the law. There was a program on our ABC talking about this very issue in the Catholic Church and it has been endemic. And it has been going on and covered up by the church for 2, 000 years. It is an institution that must be pulled down by society. If GOD exists, he would be appalled and ashamed by this behaviour by mankind.Especially the Church devoted to Him.
Sorry for the rant above but I hate them for the bastards that they are.
The best strategy is ridicule; not Dawkins; not Hitchens; not my rants; just ridicule; ridicule and removing your bums off their pews on a Sunday, every Sunday.
Leave them cock all to bank on a Monday morning.
“Intrinsically morally disordered..” …!!!
If I (and you) am that, what does that make them..?
On yer bike, Joe!
Deeside will, thanks for your comments on this document which was indeed the reason for my debate. On the subject of the intrinsic evil I was given the following explaination -”being a homosexual person is, then neither morally good nor bad: it is homosexual genital acts that are morally wrong…” Cardinal Basil Hume. Well, it would seem that so as long as you leave your naughty bits (and your partners) alone you are neither good nor bad(?)So you can be morally intert or evil folks; the choice is yours(!)
The Church is so backward thinking this Pope wants to drag the institution back beyond the Middle ages into the Dark ages!
m-m, I would say he has succeeded rather well; wardrobes and all.
A trend-setter, he ain’t.
I am now out of rant mode…I think.
This is precisely what Nugent and Gramick came up against in the States in their ministry to the homosexual community in the 1980′s
Their ministry, in this regard, was cut dead, stopped in its tracks, by Cardinal Ratzinger as he then was and these two – N. & R – (Nugent -a Dominican, Catholic priest and Sr. Jeannine Gramick, a nun.) were ordered by Ratzinger to be silent; indeed they had their teaching licences rescinded.
Still ranting inside tho’.
I’d like to get hold of that man and shake the daylights out of him.
Indeed, many in the Church at that .. 1980′s .. time, shook their heads in disbelief at the rigidity of Ratzinger’s statements; no room for doubt; no ifs ands or buts.
Many, privately, but to no avail, told him that he was alienating thousands of good people from the RCC. and asking the impossible from mere mortals.
How can you ask people to think of God as a loving Father if he allows to be born into this world, persons (homosexuals)gravely burdened with an “intrinsic propensity to evil”…that is to say, hard-wired to committing serious sin.
Many, themselves gay, secretly abandoned the church at that point or drifted away including many, many priests and more senior clerics.
Ms Geen seems not to know the meaning of “rebutted”.
Thanks to a healthy civil rights LGBT network and increasingly successful movement, no one can any longer make such outrageous claims, connecting child sex abuse with homosexuality. The US Bishops own commissioned study ongoing since 2002, distinguished between sexual behavior and sexual orientation. Researchers concluded that a person’s sexual orientation was NOT a predictor of sex abuse:
Very erudite of you Jack but wasted on that bunch of hypocrites; their self-serving interests are an automatic bar to intelligent dialogue and you’d be banging your head against a brick wall with that lot in the Vatican; they think as if they are stuck in 1410 and power-dress to match.
Don’t forget it only took them half a millennium to say, “Oh….ho-hum….so the earth goes around the sun…is dat a fact..?”
The “civil rights” you mention were described only days ago as “gossip/fashion/chatter of the moment” by Joe ‘I-know-nossink’ Schultz himself.
They are not interested in “civil rights”.
They are only interested in the institution and preserving it at all costs and I would suggest that if Ratzinger goes much further bending backwards in his attempts to stem the rising tide of anger, he will find himself in his bed one morning a ‘gonner’ -the very powerful, self-serving forces in the Vatican will see to it.
Even he is not bigger than the institution; you can always get another Pope; too may career politicians in that few square hectares, many with an axe to grind against him for one thing.
It is all corrupt politics in red shoes and crimson capes, that stinking cesspit.
Anybody else would have been arrested by now and be “out on bail pending…”
You would be, I would be, for stealing a topside of beef from Sainsbury’s; this bunch of sods have stolen the innocence of thousands over the decades.
Since the Pope and his underlings in the red caps and capes have no understanding of the pain they inflict on others… if it would be apropo to stick a red hot branding iron in the netherparts of His Stupidness with the initials, “JAP”… as in “Jack Ass Pope.” and then possibly add saltwater to the festering mix! Or would he and his Arrogances just go, “Ow! That smarts!” When is the Catholic church going to wake up and find they have been taken to the cleaners for centuries bcause no Christian is beholden to any earthly poop for their salvation. There is a direct link: from sinner saved by Grace to the Redeemer. No middleman, no candles, no incense, no indulgences, no nothin”…just absolaute Grace! When???!!! are they going to wake up??!!
I have to say well done to you, Keith, and Dakotahgeo! The total inability of these psycho-sexually undeveloped unmaturated human-beings poncing around in fancy-dress and believing in supernatural baloney of the most outrageous and lunatic nature, their total inability to FEEL the pain of their victims . . . is CRIMINAL.
They are NOT going to “wake up” Dakotagheo.
Why should they?
They are on too good a gravy train.
Ever since Christ gave the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter (supposedly…and we only have THEIR self-interested word for it)with the rider that “Whose sins thous shalt forgive they are forgiven, whose sins thous shalt retain, they are retained..” ….erm…well, ever since, it has been a licence to print money down the centuries.
They are really going to give all that up aren’t they!
What’s a few snot-nosed kids’ upset, wot’s the trauma of a few peasants?
They could not give a toss and any show at redress will be just that, ‘show’; window-dressing; crocodile tears.
And now for the latest episode in the KEYSTONE CLERICS series:-
What is some moron of a Mexican bishop trotting out now.?
The highly sexualised nature of Mexican T.V. is to blame for the waywardness of some priests.?
Don’t Mexican T.V’s have an on / off swi……. ?
It’s so laffable, it is not worth finishin’ the word.
And they think everyone else is a gormless as they are.
Why can they not just shut the ckuff up?
I hate the bastards.
For an absolutely hilarious send-up of the scandal, in a very appropriate and incredulous tone-of-voice, see:
What an evil and vile organisation!
“Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!”
The world’s religions and cults are as transparently invented as they were described “The Sisyphus Fragment”, cited by Sextus Empiricus as an expression of the atheistic views of the Critias (Plato’suncle). The fragment is now generally thought to have beenwritten by Euripides; but some have attributed it to Critias since he was also a playwright. Here it is. There is great wisdom in it!
“There was a time when the life of human beings was disordered and beastly, and life was ruled by force, when there was no reward for the virtuous nor any punishment for the wicked. And then I think that humans decided to establish laws to punish [wrongdoers] so that justice might rule and be master over crime and violence (hybris). And they punished anyone who did wrong. Then, since the laws held public deeds in check and prevented men from open acts of violence, but they acted secretly, then it was, I believe, that a shrewd and clever-minded man invented for mortals a fear of the gods, so that there might be a deterrent for the wicked, even if they act or say or think anything in secret. Hence from this source the divine was introduced [with the claim] that there is a deity who enjoys imperishable life, hearing and seeing with his mind, his thought and attention on all things, his nature so divine that he will hear whatever is said among mortals and be able to see whatever is done. If ever you plot some evil deed in silence, even this will not escape the gods. For they have knowledge. It was such stories that he told when he introduced this most delightful teaching and hid the truth with a false tale. He said the gods dwell there and placed them where they might make the greatest impression upon human beings, there where he knew that fears come to mortals and benefits also [to relieve] the miseries of life, from the vault on high, where they beheld the shafts of lightning and fearfulblows of thunder and star-filled gleam of heaven, the beautiful design of Time the clever builder, parade-ground for the brilliant mass of the sun and source of rainfall moistening the earth below. Such were the fears with which he surrounded humans and by which this clever man established the deity in the proper place, with a handsome story, and extinguished lawlessness by means of laws. It was thus, I think, that someone first persuaded mortals to believe that there is a race of gods.”