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Gay Berlin Holocaust memorial ‘shouldn’t include lesbians’

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  1. Some of the first people to face Nazis wrath was the Lesbians and trans people who worked in the clubs of Nollendorfplatz in Berlin. They are described in Christopher Isherwood book Goodbye to Berlin that was turned into the musical Cabaret.

    The reason they did not make it to the concentration camps was because they was mostly murdered by the SS during or after interrogation.

    But then revisionist gay male historians are already trying to write trans folk out the stonewall riot and now looks to write out lesbians from the holocaust too. Its a lot like the whole Harvey Milk film that shows LGBT history as only gay men started the whole rights movement in San Francisco. While the truth is Lesbians and transgender people fought back 10 years before the whole tenderloin Harvey Milk thing happened!

  2. “Research shows that the persecution of lesbian women by the Nazi regime was not comparable to that of homosexual men. This is also clearly explained in a plaque on the memorial.”

    I totally disagree with this!

    Firstly, while lesbians were not interned (if you can call a death camp an “internment”) and Paragraph 175 did not mention female homosexuality specifically, they did suffer under the nazi regime. The non-criminalization of female homosexuality meant that lesbians were not intensively prosecuted in the same way or to the same degree as homosexual men. But they did suffer, for example, the same destruction of clubs and other organizations of the homosexual subculture, the banning of its papers and magazines, the closure or surveillance of the bars at which they met. This led to a dispersal of lesbian women and their withdrawal into private circles of friends. Many broke off all contacts for fear of discovery and even changed their place of residence. Lesbian life-style and identity, which had begun to take shape since the turn of the century and especially in the years of the Weimar Republic, was destroyed when the Nazi’s came to power, and the effects would last well beyond the end of the ‘Third Reich’.

    Secondly, lesbian women were expected to do their duty and reproduce for the “greater German master race”, and any exception to this could lead to interment. As such, Lesbianism was seen by many Nazi officials as alien to the nature of the Aryan woman.

    And there WERE cases of women being arrested, in cases, the police arrested lesbians as “asocials” or “prostitutes”, Henny Schermann, was one such example who was gassed for being who she was.

    Its wrong to put one gay group above the other in terms of who suffered more. Its the same way the Jews put their suffering in the war over ours. Numerically in orders of magnitude, I’d agree, but if you were wearing the pink triangle waiting to be exterminated for simply loving someone as many of our kind were, this would be very little comfort indeed.

    This memorial should stand for ALL LGBT persecution. Gay, Lesbian, transgendered… we all have shouldered the burden of nazi persecution in or way or another.

    Sorry if this sounds preachy, but I find statements like this reprehensible and factually incorrect.

  3. Will@2 – This memorial should stand for ALL LGBT persecution. Gay, Lesbian, transgendered… we all have shouldered the burden of nazi persecution in or way or another.

    Here, here! Well said Will, and beautifully put!!!!!!!! You too Abi1975. This kind of counter argument only fuels the fires of who deserves rights the most. We all deserve our rights. A GLBT memorial is for all of us, not those with the ‘greatest suffering’. I am appalled that a gay man wants to claim the suffering during WW2 exclusively for gay men. Especially when its not true, as the previous comments clearly point out.

  4. I second the comments above. A note to be added is that the Nazis actually advocated raping recalcitrant lesbians. A bit like some mad religious groups today.

  5. When I saw this headline I thought – I bet crazy old Abi will use this to display her hatred of men, gay men in particular. Abi rarely dispoints though usually she claims some personal connection with the story – I’m only surprised she is not claiming to have worked unter den linden.

  6. FeministSmithie 26 Mar 2010, 7:47pm

    Are we surprised that women’s experiences are being written out of history once again?

    Do these historians not see the irony of their arguments: for decades, homosexual persecution in holocaust has been ignored, and their suffering was argued to be insignificant in contrast to that of other persecuted groups. Now what is their argument against including lesbians?

  7. “Now what is their argument against including lesbians?”

    They don’t have one, its the age old story of “my suffering is more then yours” nonsense. Their so called factual basis for this is also debatable, as is their motives. These people should be ashamed of themselves for trying to excluding lesbians, and as a gay man, I sincerely hope the fail to exclude anyone for the LGBT umbrella from this memorial. Gay men do not have a monopoly on prejudices or persecutions, during the nazi era, or elsewhere.

  8. Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Mar 2010, 11:57pm

    A larger window in the concrete wall would do it. Then we could see both a gay and a Lesbian couple.

    What was the idea of alternating in the first place??

  9. Lets hope Germany remembers its past and other EU countries rememebr how gay were discriminated against and take action to rid discrimination in all forms in Europe – good to know that the ministry of justice in Germany have stated recently that “German government honours the rights of a civil partnership formed in the UK in the same way a UK government would. Principally you would not be regarded as single, but as one half of a partnership.

    It continues to point out that currently there are differences in German law between partnerships and marriages in the areas of Tax and state provision for the surviving partner. However, the current government coalition is committed to full parity of marriage and partnership and will enact legislation before the next election, provided the constitutional court agrees.”
    - http://www.uklgig.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2213&start=15

  10. I’m not surprised at the attempt to write women–in this case lesbians–out of history AGAIN. It is my understanding that lesbians AND gays suffered in the Holocaust. Why is the insistence that lesbians be included evidence of hating men, Simon? If they suffered, which I am sure they did, they deserve to be included in a Holocaust memorial.

    I put this attempt to write lesbians out of history on a par with the insistence of some members of the Jewish community that only Jews should be memorialised because they suffered the most. No, there are approximately six million other people in various groups that were murdered as well: the mentally-ill, the developmentally-disabled, Gypsies, and GLBT people, just to name a few.

    It is saddening to see a GLBT person doing this to their own kind. If anyone is showing hatred, it is this person showing a hatred of women by not wanting them included. It should not be a contest to determine who suffered most–ANYONE who was murdered in the Holocaust deserves to be memorialised–and that includes lesbians.

  11. ok, nice. we spent ages being told that the gay people who died in the holocaust didnt count and as soon as gay men get recognised then the others dont count.

    human beings disgust me sometimes. minorities, stop kicking out at smaller minorities!

  12. Mary Flying Eagle Ray 27 Mar 2010, 2:37am

    Are We once again to do battle amoung ourselves?I do so hope not.
    Shame on that misguided jerk,bringing up such an issue, surely to cause
    more harm than good for our community.That time in herstory/history was a
    time of rape,murder,maiming,torture,for lesbian wimmin and gay men.
    May we always remember them in our prayers, and honor their suffering.
    To degrade their memories and suffering, in argument for separarion,is
    shameful.
    (It took me awhile to kinda understand the kissing memorial).
    Our cause is still way behind the rights we should be freely privy too,
    and we have fought so many battles amoung ourselves, loosing more and
    more. M
    F E

  13. If lesbians werent hunted by the Nazis then they shouldn’t be represented just to be politically correct
    On the other hand, if they can prove lesbians were targeted then they should have a place on the memorial

  14. “On the other hand, if they can prove lesbians were targeted then they should have a place on the memorial”

    Tigra, they don’t need to prove anything, Tigra! This memorial is ALREADY for ALL LGBT people persecuted during the nazi regime. Didn’t you read the comments here? History has ample examples of lesbian persecution under the nazi’s. You have access to the internet – use it and see for yourself. What this Alexander Zinn muppet is suggesting as fact is wrong and obviously knows sweet FA about the war in his own country. Clearly he has some personal agenda to peruse.

    This had NOTHING to do with ‘political correctness’ – its about historical correctness. And no one man, either him or you, have any right to decide who’s suffering is more, or to monopolise the burden of persecution. Quite frankly, one person interned and murdered for being gay is one too many.

  15. Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Mar 2010, 9:39am

    Does anybody know what happened to the rest of the front page ay Pink News???

  16. Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Mar 2010, 10:01am

    Abi1975 @ 1:

    Thanks for the link; great video clip. So the American religious revival which followed the Great Depression forced the liberated gays and lesbians of the 20′s and 30′s back into the closet until the Gay Liberation Movement of the 60′s.

    Lesbians were very present and active in San Francisco along with Harvey Milk according to the footage I’ve seen, and I’ve seen quite a bit.

    I have also seen footage of Christopher Isherwood’s Berlin; there too lesbians were not only present but absolutely liberated and “marvelous”.

    I do believe these women were murdered by the Nazis but I’ve yet to find documentation. In fact, the exceptional film, “Paragraph 175″, directed by Oscar winners Rob Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman in 2000 (and narrated by Rupert Everett) falls short of mentioning lesbian survivors of the camps. Too bad. These women, if they are still alive, have not come forward to tell their stories, and I wish they would.

  17. As usual, the Militant wimmin’s brigade is rushing in to claim parity, when they quite obviously have nothing to do with the story.
    It reminds me of the early 80′s when gay men were dropping like flies from AIDS, and all the lesbians felt left out and started issuing dental dams. Pathetic.

  18. The mentally ill were actually the first victims of the holocaust. I dont think Will has any moral authority regarding these matters, as he encourages the suicide and exclusion of mentally ill queers.
    I recently lived back in Ireland to find gay people are still not accepted in their own communities, and the stigma attached to mental ilness is severe. This stigma is multiplied for mentally ill queers.Harassment , ridicule and violence are all to common for these people. If you happen to be an ethnic minority it is even worse again.
    Many English find Ireland a deeply racist country, and I as a former resident of the U.K attest it is far less racist than Ireland. Enough of your marauding Will as a liberal progressive , you are nothing but a rabid nationalist who hates anyone who has the bravery to present Eire in an honest and transparent fashion.
    I wonder why all thse people are worked up, we all know the so called gay community is a little nasty exclusionary club full of bigots and right wing fanatics, steeped on one hand in their own ignorance and bigotry, and on the other asking for acceptance and tolerance of their own sexuality.

  19. Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Mar 2010, 4:27pm

    @Will 14:

    You said:

    “Quite frankly, one person interned and murdered for being gay is one too many.”

    How true. Nowhere is the persecution of lesbians by the nascent Nazi party more visible than in the censorship of lesbian publications.

    For example, in “Gay Life and Culture, A World History”, edited by Robert Aldrich, Leila J. Lupp writes of the relative freedom enjoyed by the press during the Weimar period:

    “The two most successful lesbian magazines, “Die Freudin” (which published love poems such as ‘Leibelei’ by Karola Neumann and ‘Melancolie’ by Rico) and “Garçonne Funggesellin” (which featured authors like Anette Eick, Hildegard G. Fritsch, Herta Laser, and Marga Kurth) disappear precisely in 1933.”

    Berlin was in fact home to a large number of lesbian bars, clubs and cabarets during the 1920′s and early 1930′s. The city’s lesbian nightlife even boasted its own guidebook (Berlin’s Lesbian Women, 1928), which featured a preface by the homosexual sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld.

    Also, Jeanne Mammen’ illustrations of lesbian women’s club activities (notably gambling) which appeared in Agnes Esterhazy’s “The Vices of Women”, 1930, were nothing short of artistic expressionism.

    The question remains: What happened to these women? And by that I mean when and how were they murdered by the SS??

    A Gay Berlin Holocaust Memorial should definitely include lesbians.

  20. What i meant Will, is that it is common knowledge that up to 15,000 gay men were executed by the Nazis but there isnt any figures for lesbians
    Just because the gay bars got closed and they got bullied, that isnt reason for a memorial
    The memorial is for the torture and murder of >15,000 gay men
    Bullying of lesbians isnt comparable and it should be proved they were treated the same before the memorial honors them

    I have nothing against lesbians at all but Alexander Linn is right that this isnt a politically correct issue, let his claims be investigated before including them in the monument

  21. No 18: Victim: you say:

    “I recently lived back in Ireland to find gay people are still not accepted in their own communities, and the stigma attached to mental ilness is severe.”

    I don’t think you should be applying your own lack of acceptance in your community to all other gay people.

    You’re always whining on about your own personal suffering and your hatred for Ireland, and for some bizarre reason, you feel qualified to speak on behalf of everyone.

    And let’s be honest – the fact that you call yourself ‘Victim’ gives a fair indication of your attitude to life.

  22. RobN, your comment is disgusting. There were (and still are) many lesbians and other women who did huge amounts of work against the problems of AIDS and the homophobia against gay men. But you demonstrate what far too many men gay or straight do – a complete contempt for women’s work, women’s effort, women’s experience. In your world, if it didn’t happen in front of your eyes to a man then it doesn’t count. You are the truly pathetic one

  23. Ive just seen a picture of the Berlin memorial monument. It looks like a toilet cubicle with a glory hole. I would be frightened to look into it! Surely they could have made something a bit more glitzy.

  24. “as he encourages the suicide and exclusion of mentally ill queers.”

    Really? Where do I do this, in your med-induced reality? Victim, glad to see you back again with your lunatic accusations and imbalanced insults. Here’s an idea, why not f*** off, I have no time to listen to your puerile bile.

  25. Oh, Rob_N, your spelling of ‘women’ leads me to conclude that you are indeed a troll. From where do you hail? 4chan? ED?

  26. Mary Flying Eagle Ray 28 Mar 2010, 2:57am

    Sad we seem in our community to jump at any chance to tear each other
    to bits.This Memorial to the sufferings,deaths,subhuman treatment, may
    not be sacred to some, But To Me It Is. If we stand back,take a look at
    our community of today, perhaps we can get a glimmer of how some straights
    right or wrong, view us.
    #17 that was an untrue comment you made about”militant wimmin brigade
    rushing in to claim parity.MMMMMMM now let me think,are we militant
    wimmin? or lesbian wimmin who are mad as hell, and not gonna take it any more?
    As for our dear brothers dropping like flies of aids in the 80s,for your vile
    comment on that, well,…Many lesbians were tending to as many of the
    sick as they could, changing diapers, cooking,cleaning up after the sick
    any way possible, doing whatever we could as we ourselves grew weaker
    weaker, loss after loss as we faced the truth, “something was happening,
    we knew not what,only that we would be there for as long as we were needed,
    and beyond!!! May I also remind you, many, many lesbians also died,
    or would I as a lesbian womyn,be deemed as sounding too militant by you.
    #25 It is I who first used the spelling of wimmin on this thread,don’t
    blame #17. I also do not consider myself a Troll.
    M
    F E

  27. This memorial should be there for All that suffered. Once we start arguments about who suffer worse, not only do we change history to suit but we slowly remove the impact of the actions that must never be forgotten.

    With the actually survivors getting older and their numbers in decline it becomes even more important to keep alive the facts as it actually happened. I fear that as the new generations grow the facts about what happened will slowly become watered down. This must Never be allowed to happen.

    The worst side of humanity Must Never be forgotten. Weither the numbers be Jew, Lesbian, Gay etc, etc

    The only problem is as much as it is important never to forget, some will carry on abusing their power, to deny the past and to Never learn from it.

  28. When I first read this, I thought, well it should reflect the reality that it was gay men who were murdered en masse. But then I went through the comments and changed my mind. Men and women who are gay, are all gay people. Murdering some of them is an attack on them all. Murdering gay men is also an attack on gay women, and trans too. It’s appropriate for the memorial to reflect that.

  29. It’s so upsetting to see gay men turn against lesbians and vice versa over topics like this.
    We’re all gay – our sex shouldn’t matter and we’re only hurting ourselves when we don’t work together!

  30. Think: “RobN, your comment is disgusting. There were (and still are) many lesbians and other women who did huge amounts of work against the problems of AIDS”

    You quite obviously didn’t READ what I said. The fact it was gay MEN that were dying of AIDS, and not women somehow split the LGBT minority, as if “gay men are getting all the attention – but we could die of it too!” when in fact we all know it was virtually impossible. Dental dams were handed out as the female equivalent of condoms, just so it looked like we were all at risk.

    I am not denying many women helped out in the cause, but please don’t twist my words to fit your criteria.

    SK: “Oh, Rob_N, your spelling of ‘women’ leads me to conclude that you are indeed a troll.”

    Wimmin: Women. A late 20th century creation. A feminist spelling to avoid the suffix men.
    And actually, it is in common usage:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/sep/05/greenham3

    And classic example:
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Millie-Tant

  31. And yet, trolls also spell it ‘wimmin’. Problem, Rob?

  32. actually robn, those engaging in lesbian sex could, indeed pass on HIV if one or both of the two had previously been with a man (in theory, this is not saying that every man has HIV lol). either of them could be bi or just slept with men to try and ‘fix’ themselves.
    also i agree with people above, if one part of the LGBT community is targeted then the whole community is.
    i also thought i read somewhere that lesbians were victims of the Nazis, didnt they wear a black triangle? (i dont know for sure, dont flame plz) either way, lesbians didnt have an easy ride, does someone really need to be killed for something before it is recognised?…how sad.

  33. SK: Yeah. I have a problem with leftie f_cking right-on diesels like you telling me I’m a troll.

    rayray: Sure, and there might be raped pensioners and children capable of the same thing. Stop making damn stupid excuses just to fit the criteria. Lesbians were NOT at anything like the same sort of risk level as gay men were back in the 80′s, and I suspect you will not find a single one having died as a result of AIDS, so please get some f_cking perspective!

    As for “community”, there is little of one now, and you can bet there was none back in Nazi Germany.

  34. Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Mar 2010, 10:45pm

    Black Triangle for lesbians…right on:

    http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?lang=en&topic=02#04

    And more:

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005478

    Referring against to “Gay Life and Culture, A World History”, Florence Tamagne writes on page 193:

    “Although lesbians generally tended to escape prosecution, some were arrested under Austrian law, which criminalized female homosexuality, or on various other pretexts, and were interned as being asocial or Communists (Claudia Schoppemann, Nationalsoziallistische Sozialolpitik and weilecheHomosexualität, Berlin, 1991).

    Some were made to work in camp brothels and were subjected to systematic rape, thus reaffirming the hierarchy of the sexes and the patriarchal order of things.”

  35. Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Mar 2010, 11:09pm

    Remember Henny Schermannn…”licentious lesbian”:

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_oi.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005478&MediaId=2426

  36. Victim ..18… Just reading your post makes one wonder how you made it back from Ireland with an attitude like yours.Had i met you while you were here i doubt youd be here to talk about it. I have lived in Ireland for the last 29 years and i have not experienced homophobia in any way. I am a very out Atheist gay man and had a 9 year relationship which also was very out.99% of our friends were hetro men and women and we were invited everywhere and there was hardly a night that our home wasnt buzzing with happiness and friendship. When our relationship went sour our straight friends done everything possible to help us mend it. Since then i have been introduced to several guys by my straight friends so i dont relate to the rubbish you posted above. It occours to me that your problems in “Eire” were not related to your gayness but to you…period. The irish have always been very good at “reading” people and methinks you were “read” soon as you stepped off the plane. ANd another thing The Irish absoulotely hate the Victim thing ……………

  37. Jean-Paul Bentham 29 Mar 2010, 6:01am

    The article says:

    ‘Alexander Zinn, a board member of the foundation that maintains the former Nazi concentration camps near Berlin, told AFP: “It’s a distortion of history as there were no known Holocaust victims targeted for being lesbian and historical truth must remain focused.”‘

    I Googled Alexander Zinn and I found his original article and video of the Memorial in Queerty mag. There is also footage availabale of him on YouTube for those of you who understand German.

    Personally I don’t understand why Mr. Zinn would say such a thing. He is on the board of members who maintains the “nazi camps”, and he certainly must be an expert to have such a position.

    Still, it appears that he is attempting by this article to deny that Nazis were systematically homophobic towards lesbians, and I don’t buy that.

    Although I will admit that lesbian history has been neglected.

  38. Bill Perdue 29 Mar 2010, 6:06am

    This question is not about who got the short end of the stick. It’s the question of how to proceed with movement building based on our common struggles with homohaters.

    Mentioning our common struggle in no way detracts from honoring our dead. Hatred and bigotry can lead to the mass murder of GLBT folks and always leads to persecution and violence against gay men , lesbians, bisexuals and transfolk.

    There are many examples of christer, judaist and islamist cults promoting anti-LGBT hatred to prop up reactionary states, especially those with imperial pretensions. In many countries lesbians have been subjected to death, imprisonment, rape and torture for their homosexuality. The same impulse, based on a need for cannon fodder, leads to persecutions of GLBT folks and draconian laws against abortions and sometimes divorce. The cults interfere in civil life to bolster overseas military conquest and build internal conformity.

    Rightwing and unprincipled people in the GLBT movement sometimes reflect the backwardness and ugliness of their societies. They contaminate our common struggle with tirades reflecting their transphobia, immigrant bashing, racism, islamophobia and misogyny. They degrade our struggle and create divisions based on their mistaken claim that one part of the movement is somehow more important than the rest.
    Some of them suffer from a form of ‘liberation sickness’ an inability to see that the same homohatred drives our common struggle. They have no role in our movements.

    (Part of the Nazis widespread attack on gay men reflected internal divisions between the SA, which reflected to an extent the gay leadership of the NSDAP. SA members expected radical reforms after Hitler was installed.

    Hitler, ever the loyal lap dog of the German looter class used the SS to murder gay SA leaders like Ernst Roehm and hundreds of other political opponents on June 29th, 1934 – the Night of the Long Knives. His excuse was that gays in the SS were a threat to the Nazi state.

    The purge of the ‘gay’ SS set the stage for rounding up and murdering tens of thousands of gay men.)

    We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. , Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Philadelphia, July 4, 1776.

  39. Jean-Paul Bentham 29 Mar 2010, 6:35am

    m-m. Zinn is starting to sound like a skin-head.

  40. RobN – “As for “community”, there is little of one now, and you can bet there was none back in Nazi Germany.”

    What a silly and bitter thing to say. Well just because the pretty boys wouldn’t talk to you, perhaps because you are vile inside and outside, doesn’t mean there is no community. And just because you don’t want to be part of this community, because you’d rather be a lonely and caustic screw up, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exists.

    Besides, we’d all be better off without you in our ‘nonexistent’ community, RobN. Hell, from what I can see from your bitchy comments in here, HUMANITY would be better off without you!!!!!!!

  41. Dave, pay no attention to Rob, being offensive to his own kind is the least of his worries, he’s often in here spouting right wing lunacy at ‘foreigners taking his job and land’ and just about anyone else who is basically no English, white and voting nazi. He’s an angry man raging at a world that seems to have damaged him along the way. Pity is what he deserves.

    And Victim, get a life and grow up. I’ve been to Ireland many times, and I have never seen what you describe. Perhaps Patrick#36 is on to something? That no-one in Ireland likes you because you’re a proper little arsehole. You sure sound like a complete arsehole to me and you’ve only written few words.

  42. Dave: The concept of a “gay community” is a myth. For one thing, gay men are way too selfish to ever want to bother helping anyone else, (unless they get a shag out of it, of course) – and Lesbians and Transexuals are too self-obsessed with their own sexual identities to have time to bother with anyone else. It just happens to be that a bunch of self-centred individuals happen to all be moving in the same direction, but it does not mean it is a community, and is certainly not altruistic in nature.
    The only time gay men help each other is in a darkroom with their trousers round their ankles.

    As for “humanity”, it is just another species that inhabits this planet, a species this planet could also do without.

  43. OMG – Bitter much Rob_N?

    You speak for yourself and let the rest of us who Do belong to the ‘community’ do so in peace.

  44. The holocaust refers to what happened in concentration camps, not what happened under Nazism. If Lesbians werent sent to concentration camps, that presumably is why there are objections to them being included in the memorial.

    If it were a memorial of Nazism in general, or oppression and persecution, then yes of course they should be included.

    BUT if its solely about the concentration camps, then I can understand why they wouldn’t be included in this particular display.

  45. “For one thing, gay men are way too selfish to ever want to bother helping anyone else, (unless they get a shag out of it, of course)”

    This is a ridiculous generalisation. Your experience, maybe, but not based in a reality.

    “Lesbians and Transexuals are too self-obsessed with their own sexual identities to have time to bother with anyone else.”

    Nope, don’t see this either.

    “The only time gay men help each other is in a darkroom with their trousers round their ankles.”

    And again, a stupid ill-informed generalisation.

    This is the actual reality, scientifically:

    A 1994 study [Laumann, Edward, et al. The Social Organization of Sexuality : Sexual Practices in the United States. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994] showed that the fact that gay man are “more promiscuous” than straight counterparts is rubbish
    A further analysis of the GSS data (on which Laumann based his results) indicates that the median number of sexual partners for heterosexuals is five and for homosexuals is six. The discrepancy between the mean and median is indicative of a small sub-population of gay males who tend towards high rates of sexual partners, skewing the mean, while the majority of gay men tend to have rates about the same as heterosexual males.

    Ergo, its a pack of bigoted lies that we’re all sex obsessed or more promiscuous. And only a fool accepts generalisations in lieu of evidence.

    Its sicken me to hear so called gay men, people like RobN here, actually behaving like some right wing religious freak, and using their same language, listening and agreeing to their unfounded tripe. It reeks of serious self esteem issues.

    Why bother being in here, Rob? This forum is also part of the gay community, this paper supports the gay community that you so desperately seek to shun. If you really believe what you say about the gay community, you wouldn’t be in here in the first place.

    Don’t want to be part of the “community” Rob, great, suits all of us. But don’t lambaste the rest of us with your f***ed-up insecurities.

  46. Ahhh, i’ve just seen some of the evidence that Lesbians were in fact sent to concentration camps. In which case, they of course must be included in the memorial.

  47. “BUT if its solely about the concentration camps, then I can understand why they wouldn’t be included in this particular display.”

    Why would it be solely about concentration camps? What happened in the camps was appalling, but it wasn’t the full picture. This memorial is about nazi persecution of LBGT people, state sanctioned oppression of gay people, not concentration camps. Officially its called the “Memorial to Homosexuals persecuted under Nazism”

    There is zero historical reason to exclude lesbians.

  48. The concept of a “gay community” is a myth – to you, perhaps.

    Not to everyone else, it seems.

    Tell me, lets look at the “Muslim Community” or the “Old Age Community” – do they all act, think and behave the same? No, they don’t. Yet they are a community, with differences of opinion, and lifestyles and wealth – but they have a common bind that brings the together. As do we.

    What it seems here, not only do you have no idea what the word ‘community’ means in a contemporary sense, but you are so blinded you are by your own hate of gay men, you can’t see past a few closet cases in a sauna, or a few self obsessed twats in a gay darkroom.

    This reflects disturbingly on how you see yourself. And for that, you deserve our pity. But some of us have come much further in self respect. Time for you to take your leave and let the rest of us move on, we seem to be well ahead of you anyway.

    I agree with Will@46, you seem to have a lot of self esteem issues that radiate across this forum.

  49. Will: “The median number of sexual partners for heterosexuals is five and for homosexuals is six.”

    Is that a week? :)

    You’re having a laugh. The average number of partners a straight male has is 15. I know many gay men that do more than that in a month.

    Gay men aren’t more promiscuous than str8 ones – they just have more opportunity. Str8 men don’t have much sex because women won’t let them.

    And this excuse for journalism isn’t a “Community” in any sense. It’s a bunch of hard-core left wing mouthpieces trying to invoke and force their political dogma on everybody else. If you don’t conform, you are branded as everything from a Nazi to a paedophile. Either toe the party line, or ‘you’re not one of us.’

  50. “You’re having a laugh. The average number of partners a straight male has is 15. I know many gay men that do more than that in a month.”

    Unless you have a scientific paper to back that up, and contest the one I provided, I’m not interested. I find it beneath me to deal in imaginary statistics.

    “Gay men aren’t more promiscuous than str8 ones – they just have more opportunity.”

    Head out of the sand, Rob. Straight people make their own opportunities, they don’t need saunas. News paper adverts, internet, dogging groups, swingers parties, wife swapping parties…. please! Listen to yourself, man, 5 minutes on the internet and you’ll see how much opportunity they have.

    And only a naive fool would think the folks in a gay bar constitutes the ENTIRE gay community.

    I’m beginning to see a patten in your blinkered approach to just about everything, Rob.

    “It’s a bunch of hard-core left wing mouthpieces trying to invoke and force their political dogma on everybody else”

    Really? Then leave.

    Seriously.

    You’re not happy here. No one seem to tolerate you. So leave. Its a mutually beneficial arrangement, no?

    Or is there actually a reason you keep coming back to the gays? What is it, validation for your bigoted tripe? Is that what you need?

  51. Actually, Rob, Dave says it much better than I do: “but you are so blinded you are by your own hate of gay men, you can’t see past a few closet cases in a sauna, or a few self obsessed twats in a gay darkroom.”

    That’s it in a nutshell.

    Do you ever think of going to counselling for this anger and general rage you experience constantly, or is that another ‘leftie’ something or other?

  52. “And this excuse for journalism isn’t a “Community” in any sense. It’s a bunch of hard-core left wing mouthpieces trying to invoke and force their political dogma on everybody else. If you don’t conform, you are branded as everything from a Nazi to a paedophile. Either toe the party line, or ‘you’re not one of us.’”

    Dear oh dear. It is amazing you can keep it together long enough to type this nonsense, Mr. Neal. Truly impressive. And yet you’re persistently here, Rob. Very sad testament to yourself, isn’t it?
    I think Will put it nicely when he said ‘and only a naive fool would think the folks in a gay bar constitutes the ENTIRE gay community’.

    Quite right, our William, isn’t he? And Robert, you are a fool. I can take anger when it is anger with focus or intention, but you’re just undirected stupid rage. And still you persist here. Like begin a Nazi paedophile, do you?

  53. Jean-Paul Bentham 29 Mar 2010, 4:35pm

    The Gay Berlin Holocaust Memorial is there to remind us of the atrocities committed by state endorsed homophobia…now let’s not get picky, Mr. Zinn.

  54. Will: “And only a naive fool would think the folks in a gay bar constitutes the ENTIRE gay community.”

    Who said anything about gay bars? Those places are dying on their feet. It’s the Internet, and it’s heaving.

  55. If they were persecutied (as in, there were lesbians in concentration camps) I think they have the RIGHT to be recognised.

  56. “It’s the Internet, and it’s heaving.”

    Er, the gay community are on the internet? Where were the before that came about?

  57. Rob_N, I worked for Hospice of San Francisco, and one of my patients indeed died of AIDS and she was a lesbian. Maybe only one patient, but it is not true that no lesbians have died of AIDS.

    I would do it over again if I had to, but I had too many young men die in my arms over the years I worked for HSF.

  58. Jonny CK: Will seemed to point out that the gay bars weren’t full of promiscuous men all looking to pull. That is true nowadays as they have all shifted to the Internet. I still wouldn’t call it so much a “community” though. More a “gang bang”.

    Bishop Loan: Much that I have a lot of respect for your work, one lesbian dying of AIDS is much like finding one Polar bear dying of sunstroke. It is possible, but by no means the norm. My original point was that Lesbians tried to imply that their risk to infection was as high as gay men’s, because they had this bizarre notion that men were getting more attention because we were dying at a rapid rate of knots. Do you know how this woman contracted it? I suspect not sexually via another woman.

    As for losing people, I have had my fair share, and I guess most gay men who lived through those times has at least one story to tell. It’s just a shame that 20 years on, nobody seems to have noticed and unsafe sex still goes on all over the place. One would have at least hoped that those who died had not died completely in vain.

  59. Jean-Paul Bentham 29 Mar 2010, 8:22pm

    Is this Alexander Zinn in any way related to the Alexander Zinn Literary Award??

    Bill Perdue 39:

    “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. , Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Philadelphia, July 4, 1776.”

    Right on; I like that…very much.

  60. i think that ioan saying that she knew someone who died of AIDs was a lesbian is quite telling actually. i’m guessing that she is not the only one in the world. yes, gay men ARE far more likely to die from it. women dont say that they are just as likely to. maybe back when knowedge about it was inncorrect and people paniced but now its common knowlege and any lesbian boasting such claims is a moron. ROB, you have issues, you stereotype and bash the WHOLE community…and dont say there is no such thing. the gay people (lesbian gay and bi) in my school have formed our own community and have all helped eachother with things like coming out, dating etc. you calling gay men selfish to be honest winds me up as one of my friends is a gay man and he is far from selfish. im bi and to be honest, i dont wanna know your opinion on that. The fact that some were vicimised AT ALL is enough. The odds are some were killed for lesbianism, not everyone that died under the nazis were recorded. you seem to hate the LGBT community. you are a bitter person that should probably seek councilling(sp?) this whole topic is now about arguing against you, tis rediculous

  61. Jean-Paul Bentham 30 Mar 2010, 2:14am

    Further reading:

    * Elman, R. Amy. “Triangles and Tribulations: The Politics of Nazi Symbols,” Journal of Homosexuality, vol. 30, no. 3 (1996): 3-11.
    * Marshall, Stuart. “The Contemporary Use of Gay History: The Third Reich,” in Bad-Object Choices (ed.), How Do I Look? Queer Film and Video, Seattle, Wash.: Bay Press, 1991.
    * Zoe, Lucinda. “The Black Triangle,” Lesbian Herstory Archives Newsletter, Brooklyn, N.Y., No. 12 (June 1991): p. 7. (A critical discussion of the notion that black triangles were used to mark lesbians in the concentration camps in a manner equivalent to the pink triangle for homosexual men, along with remarks on when the black triangle came to be used as a contemporary lesbian symbol).

  62. “Jonny CK: Will seemed to point out that the gay bars weren’t full of promiscuous men all looking to pull. That is true nowadays as they have all shifted to the Internet. I still wouldn’t call it so much a “community” though. More a “gang bang”.”

    Jesus, can’t you read, Rob? I sad the OPPOSITE to that. The words too complicated, eh?

    Let me spell it out for you, simply, okay? This line is key here: “The discrepancy between the mean and median is indicative of a small sub-population of gay males who tend towards high rates of sexual partners, skewing the mean, while the majority of gay men tend to have rates about the same as heterosexual males”

    Do you see what it says? A SMALL subgroup, i.e. your pals in the gay bars which you seem to have such an issue with for some reason or other, are the reason the mean is slightly higher for gay men. Sub-group. Sub-groups are smaller. i.e. its SCIENTIFICALLY proven that a few emotionally stunted promiscuous muppets who don’t have the emotional maturity to be monogamous or hold down a relationship are NOT the entire gay population, or the entire gay scene.

    But then again, anyone with half a brain could see that.

    See, its really simple, if you actually read.

    But you go believe what you want, Rob, you consistently like to take the neo-nazi extremist and somewhat intellectually retarded point of view. The point of view that has no basis in reality, but appeases your endless rage at the world and why its done you wrong. If you’re that angry all the time, why not do us all a favour and get some medication, eh? There’s a good chap….

  63. Patronising c_nt.

  64. Jean-Paul Bentham 3 Apr 2010, 5:51am

    Also the movie, ‘Aimée and Jaguar”.

  65. I visited Auschwitz in December and our guide specifically said that gay men and women were persecuted and forced to wear pink triangles. Indeed, there are images of women wearing pink triangles in a photo gallery.

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