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Gay Tory Nick Herbert says party has made ‘rapid conversion’ on gay equality

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  1. Andrew Reeves 17 Feb 2010, 12:59pm

    So, Tory Nick Herbert thinks his parties have made rapid progress on gay issues, well let me remind him, his party and you;

    A quarter of David Cameron’s shadow cabinet have previously voted against gay rights legislation in the House of Commons.

    One in six current Tory MPs standing for re-election voted in favour of Section 28 back in 1988.

    A sixth voted against Section 28’s repeal in 2003 including a third of the shadow cabinet. David Cameron, Francis Maude and William Hague were among them.

    One in ten of them voted against reducing the age of consent for gay men from 21 to 18 in 1994.

    Almost one in five voted against the Sexual Offences Amendment Bill in 1999 which reduced the age at which anal sex is legal from 18 to 16. Seven of these, including shadow equality minister Theresa May, are in the current Cameron shadow cabinet.

    One in three voted to allow only heterosexual married couples to adopt in 2002, including seven members of the current Cameron shadow cabinet.

    One in three voted against the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations in March 2007, which allows the Secretary of State to make regulations defining discrimination and harassment on grounds of sexual orientation. This included 33 – a third – of frontbenchers and four members of the shadow cabinet.

    Nineteen members of Cameron’s shadow cabinet joined an attempt to block the Equality Bill which would introduce a single ‘public duty’ requiring all publicly-funded bodies to proactively promote equality.

    Of the 31 shadow cabinet members, ten voted at least once against gay equality. One, the shadow Europe minister, Mark Francois, voted against repealing Section 28, allowing gay couples to adopt and 2007’s Sexual Orientation Regulations. He also joined the attempt to block the Equality Bill.

    The Tory record on supporting gay rights is nothing short of shameful.

    You can read more on my blog.

  2. Well I Will be voting Tory just to get this current lot out, nothing to do with politics sadly!

  3. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 1:05pm

    Thanks for that Andrew – you might want to check what the word ‘rapid’ means.

    The story is about ‘rapid’ change, rather than what people voted in 1988.

  4. The party leadership is young and inexperienced and has changed to some extent.
    But it is a cosmetic adornment to the party rank-and-file, who have not. When and if they get into power, the party old guard will marginalise and neutralise them on all sorts of issues, including this one, even at the cost of long-term political success, and Cameron will be wrecked by his own party. Just wait.

  5. Sister Mary Uncle Tom Clarence forgets, or conveniently forgets, that every Tory MP present in the Commons voted fairly recently to retain the Waddington amendment. For those who do not know what this means, it gives legal freedom to religious people to attack gay people in an attempt to convince them that they ought to change their sexuality and/or to refrain from sexual activity. This means that all the Tory MPs who voted to retain this amendment are, in effect, saying that homosexuality is wrong.

  6. Simon Murphy 17 Feb 2010, 1:33pm

    1. ‘Call me Dave’ Cameron says that children need to be taught about gay equality in school. Nice theory.

    In practise he supports the opt out the religious cults get from equality legislation, and wants to massively increase state funding to ‘faith schools’.

    Result: Big fat fail for the Tories

    2. David Cameron has decided that catholic extremist Iain Duncan Smith will be charged with mending ‘broken Britain’. He will be in charge of families. IDS through his activties with the ‘Centre for Social Justice’ is already campaigning to reduce the parental rights of non-biological gay parents.

    Result: Big fat fail for the Tories

    3. In Europe the Tories are in alliance with the catholic, extremist Law and Justice Party from Poland. This party is condemned by Polish gay activists as being the most viciously homophobic party in Poland. Prominent Polish politician Michal Kaminski routinely refers to gay people as ‘faggots’. He was a guest of honour at the Tory Party conference this year.

    Result: Big, fat fail for the Tories

    4. Davic Camerson said in his interview with Attitude that the Tories would never enter an alliance with a group whose views he found ‘unacceptable’. Prominent Law and Justice Party politician Stanislaw Pieta recently said that most paedophiles are gay. In fact he said that ‘43% of paedophiles are gay even though gay people make up 1% of the population’.

    David Cameron refused to condemn that as homophobic.

    Result: Big fat fail for the Tories.

    5. The LGBTory group is the Tory Party group representing LGBT Tories. Unfortunately they have NEVER expressed a single concern about any of the topics mentioned above.

    They are not allowed to. Their function is to serve as a PR gimmick. They do not even believe that pretending that 43% of child abusers is gay is a homophobic comment.

    Result: Big fat fail for the Tories

    The Tories may believe they are no longer the party for homophobic bigots.

    But their actions indicate they are lying. What else can you expect from a party whose leader ‘Call me Dave’ Cameron worked as a professional liar (in PR no less) before he entered politics

  7. The Tories havce changed? Really?

    How? Show me one thing they have actually done for gay people – not a stupid pub visit, not a pretty speech, not some idiotic pr stunt meant to make us vote for people who loathe us – show me what they have done

    Show me the votes for gay rights. Show me the actions against homophobia. Show me the condemnation of homophobia at hom and abroad.

    They can’t – they’ve voted against EVERY right we’ve fought for, every remotely pro-gay issue, policy or legislation must pass through the teeth of Tory opposition and they’ve allied with virulent homophobes in the EU

    Herbert may be happy with his 30 pieces of silver – but we know who are enemies are

  8. Bravo Nick herbert! A big job for him in a future Tory government. I reckon Foreign Secretary (or Home-o Secretary) and maybe fighting for the leadership with Jeremy Hunt one day, post Cameron.

    let’s get a decent government in for God’s sake and get these horrendous amateurs out. Why oh why do us gays have to pay taxes through the nose to fund layabouts in Labour strongholds to not get out of bed in the morning? And these people have the cheek to complain about immigrants, who come over from the other side of the earth to do jobs they feel are beneath them! These lazy larda*ses think they are above cleaning hospital toilets but not too proud to live on handouts their whole lives. Why are we paying for them and their multitudes of kids? we don’t have kids but pay for everyone else’s.

    Get a Tory administration in to cut this deficit and make people work for a living.

  9. Does Julian have an empty-headed friend called Sandy who is just like himself?

  10. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 1:50pm

    ‘Uncle Tom’?

    Clearly you have got no idea what the Waddington amendment actually did or didn’t do.

    Although we have had this argument before about the use of ‘Uncle Tom’ so I’m fairly clear you know very well that its a racist term. Its use only serves to emphasise your racist perception that black people cannot or should not vote Tory.

    We were given the vote a few years ago now and it didn’t come with the condition that we only vote for the Labour Party to the best of my knowledge.

    Its a little ironic is it not that you have a problem with an amendment that was designed not to overly restrict free speech, yet you’re quit happy to use racist slurs against me, without any fear of sanction?

    No doubt this comment will be removed but I sincerely hope yours gets removed too. This site is the ONLY place I every get sh*t because of the colour of my skin – and no doubt you’re some seven stone runt who wouldn’t have the bollocks to stand in front of me and say it to my face for fear of getting then sh*t kicked out of you.

  11. They “appeared” hostile towards gay people, because they WERE hostile towards gay people. Many of their grass-roots members and counsellors still are.

  12. Any gay man or lesbian who votes tory is a traitor and an idiot!!!!!!

  13. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 2:11pm

    Well said Julian.

    As for you Neville ….. be nice if you could post a comment without degenerating to the racist slurs … but as experience tells me, you can’t.

  14. Relativly good looking Tory MP is gay and tells us the Tories are now gay friendly eh? Soory but it won’t wash with those of us who went thru section 28 and all the vicious nasty cabinet members of Mrs Snatcher! Some of us have long memories and if you are gay vote green lib dem or even labour cos I wouldnt trust “Dave & Co” with our Rights! The only real gay friendly Tory was Edwina Curry!

  15. Simon Murphy 17 Feb 2010, 2:14pm

    No 10: Mary Clarence: you say: “Although we have had this argument before about the use of ‘Uncle Tom’ so I’m fairly clear you know very well that its a racist term.”

    Is it?

    I always thought that an ‘Uncle Tom’ was a Black person during the era of slavery in the US who would always take the side of his slave-owning masters, even at the expense of his fellow Black people.

    Not sure about Mary Clarence. But if there is a gay equivalent of ‘Uncle Tom’ then Nick Herbert surely fits the bill.

    Does he not think that increasing funding to ‘faith schools’ is a very dangerous, stupid and homophobic thing to do. Especially seeing as the Tories believe that these churches should be allowed to discrimionate against gay people?

  16. Poor Sister Mary I’ve a nice job, nice car, nice house Clarence likes the concept of freedom of speech, but only when it fits in with her conceptions. She does not like to hear the truth, for the truth hurts!

  17. Simon is, of course, right. Uncle Tom is a character in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s novel ‘Uncle Tom’s Cabin’. But he is the one who fits in with the attitudes of the slave owners, perhaps now personified as the Tory Party!

  18. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 2:31pm

    The comment was actually directed at Neville, Simon, but no surprise I suppose for you to wade in to his defense.

    “ooohhh, is it? I innocently though it was just a character from an old book”

    Pathetic, both of you.

    Do either of you think you’d have the balls to say it to my face?

  19. Disheartened 17 Feb 2010, 2:32pm

    Every time I hear of gay persons supporting the conservatives I am reminded of the KAPO, Jews who sold out & worked for the Nazi in further persicution of other Jews in the WWII death camps.

    Its just what it reminds me of

  20. Mumbo Jumbo 17 Feb 2010, 2:34pm

    Presumably when Mr Herbert is talking about “rapid” he really means it ie. in the last two weeks – because prior to this date every single Conservative in the House of Lords voted against equality. Every last one.

    And they were led into the voting lobby by Baroness Warsi – the shadow cabinet member who would under a Conservative government be responsible for equality issues.

    Handsome is as handsome does. Don’t show me the words, show me the votes.

  21. When did a Tory government EVER reduce unemployment Julian? The people who sit about on benefits are the few less than 1% of the population. Many are victims of being thrown on the scrap heap by Thatcher in the 80’s.

  22. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 2:42pm

    Disheartened, you need be watching a bit less telly mate. The Tories control the largest number of local authorities in Britain. London has a Tory mayor – gay people are not being routinely tossed in the Thames as best I recall. Westminster, epicentre of gay London life has been Tory for I don’t know how long and gay life flourishes there.

    The gay community across the country has prospered under legislation from Europe, forced on a Labour government and enacted very often by local authorities, largely Conservative.

    The economic ruin that Labour is driving us towards is more of a threat to equality than a Conservative government. So many people foretelling the end of the world if the Conservatives are elected are labouring under the misapprehension that any party’s government still has control of this country. Power has been centralised to Europe, the government of the day here has limited control of legislation.

  23. As a man who just happens to be gay don’t I have the right to vote on other important issues other than just a gay one? Shouldn’t I vote for the party that’ll hopefully bring some kind of stability? Not deeper into bankrupcy? Don’t i have the right to vote for the best party that support my interests in working, money, housing, policing etc. Someone that may just (small just) stand up for us against Europe and not sell us further down the river. Labour don’t provide this and if I vote for a smaller party, we will be less likely to have some change and we’ll be stuck in the mess and God only knows where that’ll leave us. If I don’t vote I don’t have the right to moan. If I truly don’t like the Tories when I vote for them this time, I do not have the right to vote for them next time. Not everything in my life evolves around being gay. I don’t believe for a minute that our rights will disappear under the Tories, they have an economic crisis to sort out and that’ll take pretty much a lot of the next five years up, just sorting out Labour’s mess.

    Please do correct me If I’m not supposed to choose for myself who I vote for.

  24. Squidgy you have every right of course, but where I think many of us feel anxiety around the Tories is that we believe civil rights and social justice trump economics. Maybe it’s a generational thing but for those of us who grew up in an era where you could lose a job for being gay, where you had no legal rights around your relationships, no right to reside with a national of another country based on being gay, the hateful Clause 28 – all of these memories serve as a strong emotional connection to remind us of how important gay rights are. It has been a long haul over the last 20 years to get any semblance of equality, and imperfect as they are, the rights granted to our community have come from Labour not the Tories. Not one single piece of legislation supporting our community has been introduced by Conservatives and as Andrew has pointed out the fact is they have consistently voted against or abstained in moving legislation forward for us. So we take Mr Herbet’s statement with a huge pinch of salt because in the end actions speak louder then words…
    One last comment – it would be nice if folk ratchet down the personal attacks. This is meant to be a safe space for debate not hate.

  25. Patrick James 17 Feb 2010, 3:24pm

    As a Labour kind of a guy I will say that the history of LGBT Labour people has been to fight within the party to obtain the overall positive attitude which fortunately now prevails there. There is of course still homophobia within the Labour party but it is now comparitively very small.

    The LGBT Conservatives on the other hand do not seem to be addressing these issues within the Conservative party in a substantial manner.

    The Conservative party has adopted a strategy of sounding progressive without being progressive. It now knows that it needs to look progressive but believes that it does not have to be progressive, in fact it is very right wing.

    All the LGBT Conservatives seem to do is participate in this sham. They play down or whitewash the Consevative party’s links with the homophobic Polish Law and Justice party. The most shameful activity of any LGBT group I’ve seen. They do not fight against this alliance within the Conservative party.

    We are told that we should be grateful that LGBT Civil Partnerships are included with the Conservative party’s social engineering programme to make people marry each other. But the programme itself is born out of a belief by the Conservative party that government has the role of defining the nature of human relationships. That principle in itself is right wing and dangerous in the longer term to LGBT people.

    On very many levels the current Conservative party is working against the interests of LGBT people.

    It is not because of their history that those interested in the rights of LGBT people should reject them but rather it is their present day activity which is offensive.

  26. Poor Sister Mary I’ve a nice job, nice car, nice house Clarence has a poor command of English. He also has a dreadful, vulgar habit of referring to others as ‘Mate’. Who on earth would want to be his mate? He appears to want to physically attack those with whom he does not agree. What a dreadful, bullying attitude, but as in the case of Cleopatra referring to Octavius Caesar: ‘He words me, girls, he words me.’

  27. Nick Herbert can get out there and toss around all the gay-friendly window-dressing he likes but Ben Bradshaw was absolutely spot-on when he said that a “deep strain of homophobia” exists amongst Tories.

    I know this from personal experience of local Tories today, in 2009 and January and Feburary 2010. When I and my partner turn up to local groups and committees, which are unfortunately dominated by Tories, their distaste is palpable! Their thin smiles do not hide their internal cringes! They look nervously away and after pleasantries they scatter and seek refuge amongst their own kind. They just can’t cope with queers!

    However, my partner and I are tough, so we don’t crumple, and we don’t stop going and being involved in local affairs but we see this Tory distaste of all mention of things gay time and again and we find it laughable. What happens, if anybody’s interested, is that there are, happily, always a few Liberals, Greens, and Laborites present so we generally get on with things with them. All of those are fine: Liberals, Greens, and Labour. But Tories, no no no! Loathing of things that aren’t of an ideal vision of Great Britain’s glorious heterosexual past just are to them simply a most unfortunate blight! It’s to be expected of course: the Tory Party and the Anglican Church are synonymous. Tories go to church and sing “All Things Bright and Beautiful” and queers are certainly not amongst the bright and beautiful as far as they are concerned!

    So keep blathering Nick Herbert, but some of us know through direct contact with your Tory membership that rank and file Tories are NOT anywhere near ready to embrace gay men and women, never mind transgenders!

  28. He said that while the Tory leader was strongly pro-marriage, that was “in no way judgemental about gay people”.

    What NONE of the parties seems to be getting at the minute is that there are QUITE A FEW GAY PEOPLE ALSO STRONGLY PRO-MARRIAGE, to the point that they also seek the right to be legally married!

    “Actually, he explicitly said in his first party conference speech that when he talked about the commitment between two people, he meant also commitment between a man and a man, and a woman and a woman.”

    Who’s to say that the Tories won’t expand this notion of “commitment” to include sisters, brothers, other family members, in other words to weaken the Civil Partnership legislation so that it is even less akin to civil marriage than it is now?

    “Typically, far from taking pleasure in this new consensus, the Left has greeted it with dismay. For over a decade they have sought to build a client state, where groups are beholden to their generosity.”

    Whereas all the Tories did in their term in power was to create a serf state for the majority!

    I say to the Tory Party that I remember their past, I remember their vitriol against SO many groups, I remember their hypocrisy, and it will take a lot more than weasel words from a sell-out to convince me to ever even consider voting for them!

  29. Whilst I do agree with what you say about the Tories, Section 28 was bad but that was scrapped a few years ago. Yet we now have a rise in the number of homophobic attacks, verbal and physical coming from teenagers who are leaving school after which time Section 28 had been scrapped?

    Where is Gay marriage? Along with all the right that go with marriage?

    Where is our right to do a job with discrimination esp within religion?

    Why do we have an Equality minister that really does support equality except for those other than gay?

    As for “…the rights granted to our community have come from Labour not the Tories. Not one single piece of legislation supporting our community has been introduced by Conservatives”

    Whilst I agree it was terrible for the main part, wasn’t it under the Tories in 1994 that the legal age of consent came down from 21 to 18?

  30. Sure they’ve changed. A lot better at lying.

    Squidgy, if the Tories are likely to win, which they unfortunately are, you could vote lib dem instead, assuming you agree with their views. The more lib dems/greens/socialists we can get into power, the more likely our rights will have some kind of protection.

    It didn’t seem to post the first time

  31. Lib Dems are ok, don’t support as much as I used to, not a fan of Nick Clegg. Trouble is if I vote Lib Dems they won’t get in so we risk being left with Labour again. I feel we need a change away from them. I think a lot of ex Labour loyalists (straight) will vote BNP. Seriously I think Dude Dave is a wet drip too but just can’t take Gordy and his bunch of yes men any more.

  32. Outside London 17 Feb 2010, 3:44pm

    Some gay people who live in TOry-dominated parts of London have absolutely no IDEA that LOndon is not the rest of the country, that the rest of this country is a very very different kettle of fish! LOndon and New YOrk are the world’s two top metropolises, full of all ethnicities and thousands of metrosexuals! BOris JOhnson not kicking London queers into the THames is no proof of the general Tory mindset! Some people need to book a B&B outside of LOndon for a week! You’ll be lucky in most towns to find a gay place for a drink and if you do you’ll probably find it’s only open once a month in some seedy part of the town where the locals won’t be “offended”! We’ve got 65 million in this country you know. There’s only 7 million living in LOndon. What goes under Tories in London doesn’t go under Tories elsewhere!

  33. “But Tories, no no no! Loathing of things that aren’t of an ideal vision of Great Britain’s glorious heterosexual past just are to them simply a most unfortunate blight! It’s to be expected of course: the Tory Party and the Anglican Church are synonymous. Tories go to church and sing “All Things Bright and Beautiful” and queers are certainly not amongst the bright and beautiful as far as they are concerned!”

    Beautiful Eddy, I luv it. Soooooooooo trooooooooooo!

  34. Actually Outside London your comment does remind me that fact. Even though we do have a Tory Mayor (who I support) most of the council aren’t Tory in London. I do remember what it was like living outside London and the “scene” or rather lack of it. Living in London it is easy to forget what it’s like for the rest of the country. My main point with the Tories is that they do have a habit of improving business, which in turn would help the economy and in turn improves our way of life. (in most cases not all)

    Paul UK does make a good case I have to admit. One in which I am pondering.

  35. Tim Hopkins 17 Feb 2010, 3:57pm

    Squidgy, the amendment in 1994 was a backbench amendment to a Tory Govt bill. The original amendment was to reduce the AoC for sex between men to 16 – ie equality. The supporters of that amendment included some MPs of all parties.

    There was a free vote. Most Labour and LibDem MPs voted for the original amendment – ie equality at 16. Most Tory MPs, led by the PM John Major, voted to reduce the AoC to 18 instead. The Tories were in the majority then of course. Equality at 16 was defeated by a few votes, but reduction to 18 was passed. Some MPs, more Tories than the other parties, voted to keep the AoC at 21, but they were a minority.

    I suggest no conclusion from that – just reporting the facts!

  36. Julie Strachan 17 Feb 2010, 4:07pm

    Squidgey, don’t take this badly as I am only trying to help. We don’t say “One IN which I am pondering.” We say “One ON which I am pondering.” OK? Just trying to help. Hope you don’t mind me helping you on this.

  37. Paul Norris 17 Feb 2010, 4:11pm

    Is Nick Herbert gay?

    If he isn’t, then the Tory Party putting him forward to lobby for our votes absolutely stinks!

    “Select a nice attractive masculine man that the queers will drool over and send him out there to woo them for their votes!”

    That’s what’s going on, in my humble opinion.

    Doesn’t he look rather like the gay-friendly actor Colin Firth, eh? I don’t believe the Tories haven’t cottoned on to that and they’re exploiting it.


  38. I don’t dispute the facts Tim. I remember it well. It kept being rejected from the Lords from that vile Baroness Young. However it doesn’t hide the fact that dispite how bad the tories were it did happen under their watch. It certainly was a start to bring it down to 18. I remember it mostly because my Dad having finally come to terms with me being gay, made the effect to watch for the result. He asked me a very good question: why when they wanted to reduce the age of consent to 16 was no-one 16-18 being asked what it meant for them? all being interview at the protest were in there 30’s and 40’s. Now considering I remember my Dad being one of those who believed all gays should be shot, that was progress. Since then of course I have lived under the same roof of my parents with my partner. (totally irrelavent but hope you know what I mean.)

    Funny how on any gay rights issues since he came to lead the party how Gordy B has abstained from any vote.

  39. Julie matey, won’t take it badly. Thanks for the correction.
    Guess it’s myspeak. That’ll probably not change… lol

  40. well under a labour govenemnt, I have been able to have a civil partnership. I have been able freely to report homophobic abuse to the police and was dealt with very well. I have been able to legally meet in public and I can now make a secure future for myself and my partner . Would any of this have happened under a tory govenment , no it would not! Actions have always spoken louder than words, and the tories actions have always been to vote against gay equality, something they are still doing.

  41. So dave do you think the Tories will take away all those rights?

  42. Andrew, if the tory party has made a “rapid conversion” on gay issues and its touting itself as better than Labour on that, then why hasn’t it endorsed FULL marriage equality, unlike the Liberal Democrats and the Greens? If it did just that, maybe I’d cast my vote for them on that issue alone. I don’t expect much progress from them on that because they’re essentially no more pro full equality than Labour is. ALl they believe in is tax cuts for the wealthiest and maintaining the status quo. They believe in borrowing and paying later leaving the country with bigger deficits for the next government to clean up the mess. In the U.S. alone, the republicans who are supposed to be fiscally prudent have spent more than any democratic goverment in the past 30 years combined. They left Obama with the biggest recession since the great depression and a deficit out of control. When Bush 43 first came into power, the democrats (Labour) left the country with a net surplus. The conservatives squandered all of that on the biggest tax cuts in history for the wealthiest 2% and corporations got away with paying next to nothing. Expect more of that from the Tories.

  43. Disheartened 17 Feb 2010, 4:51pm

    @ SMC. ‘They’ might not be tossing gays in the Thames, but the Met police reported an 18% increase in homophobic hate crime in London in 2009 by your own admission in Tory controlled areas, which probably means Tory controlled education establishments and the associated anti-gay bully epedemic in such education establishments.

    I do not state which party I ‘will’ vote for, but it will not be the homophobic conservatives, who are still in colusion wih the anti-gay Polish party in Europe.

    PS: SMC due to digital change over I barely receive any television channels being in a rural area (& no cable) so seldom watch TV other than the news …MATE!

  44. So dave do you think the Tories will take away all those rights?

    Yes I do, they want to apolish the human rights act. many want to leave the EU which will denign us the cover of the EU courts. They will certainly stop any more advances on gay rights, and if people like IDS and Tebbit have anything to do with it will reverse as many as they can. Best thing to do is ask a long term, card carrying tory what they really think of us? I dare you? Read Conservatie Home. I cant believe any gay person in there right mind would want to vote tory. How kamkazee queer can you get. To vote for something that for some many many years has hated us! Remember a leopard NEVER changes its spots.

  45. Having been lucky and have lived for just over 60 years I have seen the Conservative Party in all its tattered glory as it let lose the rabid homophobic dogs on us at every turn of the way. Anyone who thinks the Conservative Party will ever stand up for our rights in the LGBT communites before the self-interests of the Conservative Party supporters is delusional. They never will. Labour for all its faults stood by us, we should stand by them.

  46. Let’s be clear, the Tories cannot be trusted to respect the rights of LGBT people in what remains a homophobic society and they also will do great damage to the British economy.

    Cameron’s Tories plan to make savage cuts to the public sector that will hit working- and lower middle-class people hardest. The Tory theft of the term ‘cooperatives’ this week is a disgrace: we, the general public, already own public services – we pay for them, use them and work in them: it is a cynical ‘fluffy’ Tory ploy to hide their desire to break national bargaining on pay and further undermine worker’s rights. We have already paid billions to prop up failing banks and would then be asked to pay twice; through spending cuts, attacks on public sector wages/pensions while banks are back in profit, greedily taking bonuses again. Our experience of Boris Johnson as Mayor of London shows us the Tory way forward with his huge cuts in policing and innovative transport projects that would have made the everyday lives of Londoners safer and easier (not forgetting the massive hikes in fares).

    On LGBT rights Cameron is clear, no new legislation on LGBT rights and he is content to resort to racism (blaming rap music for the epidemic of homophobic bullying in our schools, rather than Section 28) and cheap sexism (joking about what Muslim women choose to wear). Of course, pro-gay noises from politicians are not homophobia, but action is what politicians should be judged on and the Tory party will do nothing to support LGBT people.

    We deserve concrete policies, underpinned by funding, that will bring real improvements to our everyday lives and tackle the key issues we face: violence, bullying and harassment on the street, at home, school and work and when we are out being who we are. The Tory Party have not and would not deliver anything positive for LGBT people; they want to deliver a cut-cut-and-cut again agenda worse than anything we saw under Thatcher. Beware!

  47. Sister Mary clarence 17 Feb 2010, 6:18pm

    Had to laugh James …

    “Cameron’s Tories plan to make savage cuts to the public sector that will hit working- and lower middle-class people hardest.”

    “We have already paid billions to prop up failing banks and would then be asked to pay twice; through spending cuts, attacks on public sector wages/pensions while banks are back in profit, greedily taking bonuses again”

    “Boris Johnson as Mayor of London shows us the Tory way forward with his huge cuts in policing and innovative transport projects that would have made the everyday lives of Londoners safer and easier”

    I think the issue has been that it is the poor more than anyone who have not been able to afford the financial burden of all of these extra costs being forced on them.

    We are in the worst recession since the war, our currency is devalued, industry on its knees, massive unemployment. Dear God how bad does it need to get for some people?

  48. Mr. Mbosaramba 17 Feb 2010, 6:21pm

    Nick Herbert is nothing but a political prostitute because he jointed the political party which persecuted homosexuals of Great Britain since 1768 – over 300 years already.

    What a shameful political animal!!!

  49. Mr. Mbosaramba 17 Feb 2010, 6:28pm

    Correction of mistyping: not “1768” but 1678.

  50. vulpus_rex 17 Feb 2010, 6:45pm

    Same old ridiculous smearing from fossils who cling desperately to rubbish like clause 28 to justify their pathetic allegiance to Labour.

    No party is perfect, that includes the Tory party.

    I don’t care what they did last time they were in power – but I do care that Brown and his thieving, incompetent lick-spittles have turned everying they touch in this country to s**t.

    Nothing, but nothing could be more dreadful than the prospect of Gordon Brown getting five more years to bring us closer to his dream of Britain as a third world hell-hole of poverty, state dependence and corruption.

    Vote green, vote yellow vote anything but for the one-eyed snot gobbler!

  51. Patrick James 17 Feb 2010, 7:00pm

    Squidgy writes:

    So dave do you think the Tories will take away all those rights?

    I think this is a good question. First, before I address it, I’ll mention I am a Labour kind of a guy.

    Personally I don’t think that the Conservative party will actually directly attack the rights and equality that have been established so far by and for LGBT people in the UK.

    With respect to the UK the Conservative party has a belief that the government has a role in defining human relationships. This is often described as “pro family”. The plan to financially benefit married people is a reflection of this.

    Although civil partnerships are included in this I feel that it is dangerous for LGBT to have a government that perceives itself as one that is to change the way people conduct their personal affairs.

    The Conservative party likes to present itself as “low state” but this only relates to welfarism. It is a better description to say that the Conservatives are “anti-welfarism”. The Conservative party believes that the state should play a much greater role in people’s personal lives than it does at present.

    This intervention takes different forms. One is to simply create economic advantage those that conform. Another is to promote Churches who are in agreement with the Conservative perspective. We see of course that in the House of Lords all Conservative peers bar one voted such that Churches can discriminate against LGBT people for employment even in administration roles.

    The Conservative party plan to allow groups to set up schools will enable Churches to set up schools of course and David Cameron has described this as a massive boost for Faith schools. According to the Conservatives there is to be the biggest increase in Faith schools since the 19th century.

    However when it comes to teaching about LGBT issues or protecting LGBT people from homophobic bullying in these schools David Cameron is “against a top down approach”. In other words the state will not be intervening to protect LGBT people. State intervention is judged right by the Conservatives to make people get married, but not to protect LGBT children in these Faith schools.

    These are just a few examples. I wish to illustrate that we will not see a crass rolling back of reforms by the Conservatives but rather what is planned is a creeping social conservatism in many aspects of society.

    The other area of great concern is international policy. In truth with respect to LGBT issues overseas the Labour government should have done a great deal better than it has done, of that I am very well aware. The Conservative party is creating a clear message that LGBT issues overseas are not something that it is interested in. The most obvious example of this is the fashion in which they have created an alliance with the deeply homophobic Polish Law and Justice party in the European Union and actively advanced the notorious homophobe Michal Kaminski, the party’s leader within the European Parliament. Daniel Hannan Conservative MEP, described Kaminski as “the closest thing to a British Tory outside the Carlton Club”.

    The message put out by the Conservative party is that they will deal with deeply homophobic and far right parties and advance their cause within the European Union.

    Another example of the Conservative party’s refusal to address LGBT issues overseas was the complete silence shown by David Cameron on the subject of the proposed homophobic law reform in Uganda. Remember that David Cameron likes to comment on just about everything that he can and yet he was silent on this issue.

  52. Adam Jefferson 17 Feb 2010, 7:13pm

    @ Paul Norris – Nick has long been an openly gay member of the Conservatives, just put his name into google, not that hard.

    As for the rest of the usual labour comments, get a life, I vote for Lib dems but probably would vote tory. I would never vote labour.

  53. Political parties see gays as another bloc of voters to win over.

  54. When I look at the Conservative Party, I see that they have changed, but not changed enough. I don’t trust them.
    That aside, I think it is sad that we have a party that is still hostile to us to some extent yet, as witnessed on this forum, we spend more energy fighting amongst ourselves.

    Sad really

  55. David Lambert 17 Feb 2010, 9:20pm

    I also regularly check their voting records. Unfortunately when it comes to the election I will be voting for who I distrust the least and therefore I won’t be voting Tory.

  56. Well just keep in mind people, if you don’t vote for those that will protect our rights, then they definitely won’t ever have an opportunity to get into power. We should change this dumb system

  57. so do they want a prize or soemthing?

  58. Mr. Mbosaramba 18 Feb 2010, 12:15am

    In my view, homosexuals and lesbians never should be permitted to joint any political party, because they are polluting political environment of the world with their sexually abnormal ideology and promoting sexaul abnormality in young population of the Mankind.

    Non-homosexual poltics should be clearly established in all countries of the world. Recent invitations for homosexuals to joint political parties in some Western countries will lead such countries to disharmony of social life and will creat more suffering in general population from enforcement of homosexualistic agendas to impose the homosexuality on Mankind.

  59. is Mr. Mbosaramba a Tory? I thought so.

  60. @Mr. Mbosaramba: In my view, wankers like you who can’t spell or speak properly should never be permitted to join any political party because you would pollute more than just the political environment of the world with your literary challenged abilities and promote poor spelling in the young people of humankind.

    Non literary challenged politics and people should be established in all the countries of the world. Recent invitations for thick bigoted illiterates in some countries to post on gay websites will lead to disharmony of intelligent people and the literary-challenged such as yourself and will create tremendous suffering in the general population from a lack of reading and writing skills from the enforcement of illiterate people trying to impose bigotry and illiteracy on humankind.

  61. Jamie Taylor 18 Feb 2010, 3:15am

    I really find it tough reading the comments of Gay people who can seemingly just assume that the great battle for equality is won. Whatever their errors thanks to a Labour administration over the past 13 years Gay people in the UK are now living in a country where they can get a legal partnership and protection of their partners under the law, where they are protected by anti-discimination legislation, where the HIV+ are protected by the Disability Discrimination Act and where were are having a national conversation about homophobic bullying in schools and the national sports amongst other revolutionary changes that I am gob-smacked that I’ve managed to live long enough to see! I’m not surprised that younger Gay people want to get on with national politics but I’m afraid that they will be walking on the bones of their brothers and sisters that lived and died before them if they ignore the cause of greater equality just so that they can get Gordon Brown out of 10 Downing Street.

    It is only a few short years’ ago that Westminster Council’s ex leader Sir Simon Milton had to back down because his council tried to ban the rainbow flag in London’s Soho because it represented “advertising”! This man sits in Boris Johnson’s cabinet. Cameron has never voted for a pro-Gay policy in his life and his road to Damascus speeches and positioning is pure PR – I remember similar entreaties to the Gay community to support a changed Tory party after Tony Blair’s first term – and then they went onto try and scupper the age of consent admentment, Civil Partnership and the equality amendments that might allow us to adopt and/or foster children.

    I too have given the Tories a fair chance over the years – as have others on this forum – opportunites to engage with me at political events, but once they know that I’m a Gay HIV+ man they unilaterlly act as if I have bubonic plague! I have never had this response from representatives of any other party (I have never had to come across the BNP I admit) other than the Tories.

    Please, please, don’t trust them. Labour might have made some crashing cock ups (pardon the pun) over the years but they’ve never directly tried to ignore the needs of a marginalised and minority group in the way in which the Tories have done to the LGBT community. They have not been out of power long enough to change for the better – yet! When the likes of Lamont, Fowler, Tebbit, Clarke, Heseltine, Howard, Wakeham, Redwood and others have been turned away by a modern Conservative party then it will be time to vote for them – but they’re at the moment all just waiting in the wings to take the reins of power again and turn back the clock.

    Think hard and with your heart before your vote in May for a Tory.

  62. Thank you Patrick James, I enjoyed reading that. Certainly an interesting read.

    dave:- well personally I’m one of those that supports us, not leaving the EU but taking it back to what it was meant to me, to make trade easier. I’m do not support them making our laws. As for Human Rights, I feel they need to be clarified. They should be there however they are being abused. Hearing some terrorist or child killer using it to try and justify their crimes is not acceptable.

    As for Boris Johnson making cuts, sure its easy for Labour supporters to make the point but leave out the fact that Labour have dramatically cut London’s Budget since Boris came in, making our Mayor having to make cuts. We’re talking about the government cutting the London Budget by millions not just a few quid. Those millions that was happily given to Ken Livingstone. Not forgetting trying to recover the wasting of money and massive debt Ken left behind. So a tad unfair for people to point out half the problem to suit their argument, the cause but not the reason too.

    I really feel we’re having to vote for the best of the bad bunch here. I don’t feel our rights as they stand now will be taken away. I do feel if we keep Labour in that be the case it won’t matter about our right because we’ll be worse off for it economically wise. At least with a Tory government for the next 4 to 5 years we may be gay people with some prosperity?

    I dunno,I am leaning towards Tory this time round but purely like I say just to get this current lot out. However I guess I am still undecided.

  63. Matt Sephton 18 Feb 2010, 9:43am

    It never ceases to amaze me how out of touch with the realities of grassroots politics the contributors to these anti-Conservative threads are!

    Ben Summerskill of Stonewall has stated publicly that he expects there to be more openly-LGBT MPs on the Conservative benches than in any other Party after the next election. The Party currently has THREE openly-gay Shadow Ministers (including Nick Herbert, who this story is about) and a lesbian Vice-Chair.

    Yes, Labour have moved forward in many positive ways on LGBT issues while they have been in Government but they are by NO MEANS perfect! Have you ever been into any of the northern working men’s and Labour clubs? I certainly have and I’ve encountered FAR more homophobia there than at ANY gathering of Conservatives. Peter Tatchell himself, a few years into a Labour Government was highlighting Labour’s ‘sad, shameful record on gay human rights’ – see

    With regard to Euro groupings mentioned above, I agree that they are not perfect and even the Lib Dems and Labour sit with people who have said or done distasteful things on the issue of homosexuality. This is not to defend anybody else behaving in an unacceptable way but the Lib Dems’ Latvian allies in the European Parliament, Latvia’s First Party/Latvian Way (LPP/LC), have banned gay pride parades in Riga, attempted to ban discussion of gay issues in the media (Agence France Presse, 7 September 2006) and one of their leading figures, Janis Smits, whom they succeeded in appointing as Latvia’s human rights commissioner, described homosexuality as a ‘plague’ (Guardian, 1 June 2007). Labour’s German allies recently had to apologise for a homophobic slur against Guido Westerwelle, gay leader of the German Free Democrat Party, by Peter Langner of the Social Democrats (Pink News, 30 September 2009).

    Homophobia and prejudice is NEVER to be defended and people are right to say this. However, I happen to believe that homophobia is not to be defended no matter which Party or individual is responsible. And that is why we ALL need to be working to end both homophobia and transphobia in the UK and around the world.
    The Conservatives are more likely to form the Government after the next General Election. Let’s grow up about the LGBT debate and realise that it’s not an issue for Party Politics but an issue for Politics as a whole and one on which we can all work together to further the issues, concerns and objectives of the LGBT community, no matter where individuals are or to which part of the community they belong.

    The UK has come a long way in recent years. There is no way that longer ago than ten years we would have been able to make the progress on LGBT issues that has happened since (and, I believe, will continue no matter which Party wins the next election). Society has changed hugely since then in so many ways. People for the first time generally are FAR more accepting of homosexuality than could ever have been imagined at ANY point upto now.

    Let’s work together on pushing forward with LGBT rights together, instead of individuals continually fighting each other within the LGBT community.

  64. Read Elsewhere:

    “With 8 million people economically inactive, the Brown plan to ruin the economy totally by selling all the gold off cheaply and hit 10 million inactive and therefore have a minimum 35% of the population dependent on benefits and supporting labour is surprisingly a little behind schedule.”

    It sounds as if it should be a joke but doesn’t it have a horrible ring of truth?

    They f**cked education – keep everyone thick.
    They’ve f**cked the economy – keep everyone benefit dependent.
    They’ve f**cked immigration – large blocks of community hating each other.
    They’ve f**cked your civil rights – protest and you’ll go to jail!

    New Labour – New stalinism – do you really want five more years of this appalling mess?

  65. They’ve f**cked immigration – large blocks of community hating each other.

    Yep, 3 million in 10 years because they think they are going to vote Labour!

    Plus these communities coming here don’t only hate each other but most are extremely homophobic. So for all the comments regarding who what party side with in Europe, Labour actually invite those very people here!

    Excellent point vulpus_rex!

  66. Mumbo Jumbo 18 Feb 2010, 10:58am


    “They f**cked education – keep everyone thick”.

    Including you.

  67. @Mumbo Jumbo

    Luckily I went to school and university a) when it was free to all and b) when the qualifications meant something.

    Great win for Labour – £3,000 fees per year and £25,000 debt at the end of Uni for the very poorest students!

    What do you say to that you thick tw*t?

  68. I am curious that there are regular contributors on here so critical of the Labour Party – largely because of its move to the right in the last 15 years – and then these same people want to vote even further to the right. Extraordinary.

    PS There is no need to make personal comments about each other on here. This is about serious political issues: any abusive messages should be reported.

  69. Abi 1975 – scrap heap from the 1980s? Grow up, we have had mass immigration from people fleeing communist regimes and failed states who trek across the planet to UK and find work, and some ex miners who received generous redundancy packages can’t travel 20 miles to look for a job!

    It’s about time people in the country stopped their constant victim status mindset. They have had a worse time of it thean a Pole or Somalian?

    And who the Hell is Sandy, Neville, am I missing something here? You make a huge mistake accusing me of being racist – I am ashamed of my fellow countrymen, not those who sacrifice so much to make a better life for themselves and their families.

    And let’s stop these tribal comments like “anyone who is gay who votes Tory is a traitor”. We are not a golf club, boys. We do not have to register to become members of the gay club. We are all entitled to think and vote how we feel, don’t keep on with the Orwellian group-think

  70. No-one would dispute that the record of Conservatives on LGBT issues is far worse than that of Labour, or of the Lib Dems.
    The question is, should our attitude towards a party be more governed by its record, or by things that it has been perceived to have recently changed, or has recently changed them.
    Obviously, this will depend on the extent and kind of the perceived and real changes concerned and will also depend on how we define what a party’s’record’ is.
    Let’s look at the perceived and real changes in the Conservative party. The leader supports civil-partnerships, adoption, and rejects section 28. Let us suppose he is sincere in this. What about the rank and file of tory mp’s. Here, I think it cannot be disputed, that the majority of the rank and file are opposed, or at least, uneasy, with civil-partnerships, adoption and repeal of section 28. The question then becomes; what effort has been made to tackle the feelings of the rank and file? This is a serious question. Unfortunately, I don’t see any major attempt being made. It seems that Cameron and the cabinet say and feel one thing, whereas the rank and file, another. This is important for another reason; that gay people should be able to see their local MP and discuss issues with them, without feeling that their MP is homophobic. Granted, I am assuming that opposition to civil partnerships, adoption rights, etc, is homophobic. But this important matter seems to me not to have been discussed. Many readers’ sentiments echo this concern, specifically those that mention local tory meetings, etc. If gay people cannot actively participate in political associations without feeling intimidated, this is a serious threat to equality of opportunity. After all, should one not have the opportunity to join and participate in local Tory clubs, without fear of discrimination?
    Please remember, also, that the positive developments in Conservative party policy towards LGBT people are counterbalanced by negative developments. Especially notable, I think, is the fact that, even with recent LGBT legislation, many conservatives have consistently voted against the legislation, or parts of it (Equality bill, IVF reforms, etc). So, at best, the improvements are offset by some worrying trends.
    Remember, also, that even if Ben Summerskill of Stonewall is right (in expecting there to be more openly-LGBT MPs on the Conservative benches than in any other Party after the next election) how many of these will be Lesbians? There is only one out Lesbian in parliament. And the sorts of tory gay male that might be on the benches are, in my opinion, not necessarily beneficial to the country, IF they are representative of the sort of gay-tory male I met at Oxbridge, which abounds in gay-tory males of exceptional bigotry and elitist attitudes. The fact remains that the national political culture is still made up, largely, of elite university, and often Oxbridge, graduates. It would not suprise me if the gay people that Summerskill refers to are of the horrible variety that I have experienced at Oxbridge. i have no reason to believe otherwise.

  71. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 12:18pm

    the usual suspects, the usual abuse: personal insults and racist bvllsh1t.

    Roll on the defeat of heartless, self obsessed, misogynistic, petty minded fvcks like the ones here.

    Lets vote Labour, lets vote for…

    *the death of what few Human Rights we have left
    *the imposition of ID Cards at an unfathomable cost and against the wishes of Europe who will drag us through the courts
    *policy shaped by religious groups
    *creationism in schools
    *the hob nailing of Universities
    *the closing down of multiple University departments thanks to a deliberate attempt to ruin the University System
    *the use of unmanned drones (the ones used in Afghanistan) in the Uk for routine police work
    *the continuation of an Economy designed to benefit only the Banking sector
    *our tax payers money being used to pay huge Bankers bonuses
    *a government that doubled tax on the lowest paid worked in the UK
    *a government who still talk about taking us into the Euro at the point of that Currencie’s collapse
    *an ‘Equalities Minister’ who supports discrimination against Queer People
    *a misguided Immigration policy that has led to the growth of support for the BNP and an influx of rabidly Homophobic idiots into the UK
    *the transformation of our Universities from seats of learning into sights of Terrorist training.

    I could go on but I’m literally sickened by the record of Labour.

    As one commentator said (I paraphrase): vote Lib Dem, vote Green just don’t vote Labour but, alas, the Tories are the ones who are best placed to get Labour out.

  72. Vulpus_Rex wrote at #50: “vote anything but for the one-eyed snot gobbler!”

    There you are everyone. There is the soul of a typical Tory laid bare for all of us to see – a Tory with such a dearth of decency and compassion that he has publically called a disabled man a “one-eyed snot gobbler”.

    That’s Toriness for you in all it’s hateful spite.

    As for all of Vulpus_Rex’s other statements which seem to claim that this country is currently in some kind of HELL, his statements again are ridiculous, false, and dripping with Tory spite.

    Vulpus_Rex no doubt consumes a Daily Mail and/or Telegraph on a regular basis.

  73. Honestly, theotherone, you really have been mischievous, devilish, or silly, with your post at #72!

    When I read your claim that all our Universities have been transformed from seats of learning into sites of Terrorist Training, I almost fell off my chair! To what depths of hysterical fabrication are you not willing to go?

    The few universities that I, personally, have regular involvement with have most certainly not been transformed into Terrorist Training sites.

    Beware everyone, very clearly, in the run-up to the election, Tories are so desperate, so blood-thirsty, they are prepared to sink to the most extraordinary depths of falsehood to turn the electorate towards themselves.

    It is SO GOOD to see so many well-reasoned and rational posts above from gay men and women who very very clearly DO PERCEIVE the danger of Tories to progress in LGBT affairs.

  74. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 1:08pm

    eddy: I read the mail. I also read the independent, the guardian, the times, the BBC and pink news each day online.

    While i may not be a fan of what VR said (lets face it there is little love lost between us)I can understand his sentiments.

    We ARE in some kind of hell:

    *the worst recession since WW2
    *the highest public borrowing on record
    *the death of Civil Liberties
    *on the spot fines for various offenses (including ‘scaring people’) for which there is no judicial review and no chance to find out why you’ve been fines
    *a government that colludes in torture
    *a government that has turned it’s back on Equality
    *a meteoric rise in Homophobic attacks
    *the threat of the UK loosing it’s credit rating
    *growing social immobility
    *crippling tax on the lowest paid
    *the rise of the Far Right
    *a government hell bent on crippling whole sectors of the economy (proposed legislation on Employment Agencies)

    I agree with VR’s sentiment if not his language. As to bile: what about the ‘Uncle Tom’ stuff earlier on this thread?

  75. ironically apart from some exceptions, it’s the ‘die hard, can’t see for the wool over their eyes, and down right creepy” Labour supporters on this thread that are convincing me to vote Tory.

  76. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 1:18pm

    my posts not going up again…

    The American Secret Services and the European Secret Services have spoken about their concerns over the growth of ‘Radical’ Islamic groups in British Universities.

    Lecturers and staff at Universities post regularly (if anonymously) about the blatant Anti-Semitism and Anti-West propaganda at British Universities, contacts in LGBT societies have said the same, Jewish groups have said the same but you, my dear, say differently.

    Perhaps my language was a little strong but not my central thesis.

    And once more: I’m not a Tory. I’ll be scribbling something humorous over my ballot paper this year again.

  77. Paul Norris 18 Feb 2010, 1:48pm

    TheOTHERone. You don’t think that maybe you’ve entered into a state of acute paranoia?

    Tell me honestly: have you money at all in your wallet, have you no food in your fridge, is your belly empty, is their no public transportation in your area, is your drinking water unsanitary, are you physically beaten everytime you step outside your front door?


    No. Because we are not all living in some kind of hell here in the UK.

    Please, as is pretty obvious, there are a number of vulnerable and simple people reading these Comments, people easily led by the nose by the melodramatic and overblown. Have compassion on them at least.

  78. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 1:57pm

    OK paul. Am I beaten every time I leave the house? No but I’m threatened with it every day and yesterday someone accelerated through a set of red lights towards me, narrowly missing me and then stopped to open their door and shout Phobic abuse. Never mind but we’re all wrong when we think that Hate Crime is spiraling through the roof under a Labour Government and that the Far Right is in the ascendancy.

    As to your other points: allot of people do not have food in their fridge or money in their pockets – didn’t you know there’s a depression sorry I mean recession on? Did you miss that? Lots of people are beaten every day by countries using Torture to gain Intelligence on their ‘sworn enemies’ (of the week) and this Government condones torture. Did you miss that too?

    We are now living in a country of extra judicial punishment and Far Right extremism with a government that wants to tighten the screw far more. Wow. We’re living in a paradise here.

  79. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 2:23pm

    and may I add Paul that allot of people in the UK are born into poverty with no chance of escaping it? Thanks to Labour under who’s watch ‘social mobility’ has gone down and Child Poverty has gone up and up and up so allot of people have parents who had/ have no food in the fridge or money in their pockets and the same thing will. has happened to them.

  80. Mumbo Jumbo 18 Feb 2010, 2:53pm


    “What do you say to that you thick tw*t?”


  81. Actually Paul Norris I am disabled. Under this government and a labour run council, I’d have to fight because so many mistakes have been made towards my welfare, they overcharged me for things I shouldn’t have been paying for then I had to apply to get to my own money back. I live in a very nice property where I cannot use the bath because I cannot get in and out of it, so have to use the kitchen sink to wash, while five other people has being trying hard to fight for a shower for me to wash properly. I know of too many people better and worse than me that are in worse situations. It seems disabled people don’t matter. I admit what worries me is that I’m not convinced that Dude Dave will be any better but I need to look at who may provide me with a better quality of live.

  82. Getting back to the point: “Gay Tory Nick Herbert says party has made ‘rapid conversion’ on gay equality”. Comment 1 in response said this must have been so quickly, since the VERY LAST vote on equality a few weeks ago showed the OPPOSITE.

    We can argue section 28, we can listen to Loopy Rex yapping, or Sinister Mary labour bashing, or you can bleat about those of us born into poverty. I was not born into poverty, but fell through into the poverty “underclass” in the 1980s/1990s. But all that is beside the point: The point is – he is lying. The “rapid change” has not occurred. The voting record does NOT follow Mr Herbert’s rhetoric.

    Sooo whatever your views on the economy, labour, greens, lib dems, and tories, the MOST RECENT voting records of his party exposes Nick Herbert as a liar. As pointed out by Mr Reeves in comment 1. Everything else is like Loopy Rover’s and Sinister Mary’s typical obfuscation.

  83. Sister Mary clarence 18 Feb 2010, 3:11pm

    James, I thought I’d respond to you comment as it has calmer tones to many of the other postings.

    You refer to people upset with Labour’s move to the right, deserting them and voting for a party further to the right, which to be fair would have been true a few years ago, however many of the policies being put forward by Labour now are far further to the right than any government of either side in decades, the surveillance state we now live in with its anti-terror (‘secret’) police, civil enforcement measures, all manner of legislation that no government has dared to introduce before.

    We have an Enabling Act, last seem used by Adolf Hitler, allowing ministers to circumvent parliament, attempts to introduce anti terror legislation that even MI5 think is draconian. Margret Hodge sounding off about immigration and sounding like a BNP poster girl.

    This has left a vacuum immediately to their left and the Tories have moved into that vacuum.

  84. Sinister Mary proving my point here.

  85. vulpus_rex 18 Feb 2010, 7:11pm

    @Mumbo Dumbo – what exactly are you trying to say – using the word tw*t makes one thick? You’re even denser than I thought.

    Nothing to say though on your subject of choice I see – If you’re so keen to defend Labour let’s hear your version of why it took a socialist government to put a £25,000 price tag on a university education. Go on give us all a laugh.

    Perhaps your mate Eddy would like to comment too?

  86. Patrick James 18 Feb 2010, 7:18pm

    Matt Sephton writes:

    With regard to Euro groupings mentioned above, I agree that they are not perfect and even the Lib Dems and Labour sit with people who have said or done distasteful things on the issue of homosexuality.

    I’m afraid I must write that this statement has dishonesty at its centre, but I don’t think that Matt is the source of this dishonesty. I know very well that the Conservative party has been using this argument for some time to defend their alliance in the European Parliament with the Polish Law and Justice Party.

    I hope now to explain why I say this is argument is dishonest.

    The Conservative party created a new grouping in the European Parliament, the European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR). This grouping consists of three political parties who have the following number of MEPs in the grouping:

    Conservative Party 26
    Law and Justice 15
    Civic Democratic Party 9

    There is, in addition, a small number of individuals.

    The Labour Party is a member of the Party of European Socialists (PES) which has very many parties as members. The Lib Dems are in the Alliance of Liberal Democrats in Europe (ALDE) which has very many parties as members.

    There is no way that being a member of the PES for example means that you have some alliance with another party within it. The group is huge.

    The Conservative party pretends that to sit in the ECR with the Law and Justice party is the same as it is to sit in the PES or ALDE with another party, but this is not the case.

    The ECR was created to facilitate the Law and Justice party. The infamous homophobic leader of the Law and Justice party Mihal Kaminski was given the position of chair of the ECR bye the British Conservative party. As a consequence Michal Kaminski was made a member of the prestigious Conference of Presidents.

    The alliance between the British Conservative party and the Polish Law and Justice party goes far deeper than merely sharing their tiny parliamentary group. This is a real alliance where one party advances the cause of another within the parliament as if they were the same party.

    Matt Sephton writes:

    It never ceases to amaze me how out of touch with the realities of grassroots politics the contributors to these anti-Conservative threads are!

    I don’t think Matt is in touch with the activities or nature of the Conservative party. The advancement of the far right Law and Justice party is I believe their single most significant homophobic act. The immediate victims with be LGBT people in Poland. In addition to LGBT Poles the Conservative Party’s actions form a clear statement to other extreme right wing parties that they will deal with them.

    There is a great similarity between the British Conservative party and the Polish Law and Justice party which is that they are very big on presentation. The Law and Justice party is the most intelligent of the far right parties in its presentation of its policies. It is very like the Conservative party in its use of contemporary sounding language to diffuse attention from its actual activities. To be honest it is difficult to know who has been teaching whom?

    The Conservative party/Law and Justice party alliance has created a conduit for the political far right parties of Europe. All the far right parties have to do is adopt the presentation style of the Law and Justice party, and the Conservatives will welcome them aboard the ECR.

  87. Patrick James 18 Feb 2010, 7:39pm

    Matt Sephton writes:

    Yes, Labour have moved forward in many positive ways on LGBT issues while they have been in Government but they are by NO MEANS perfect! Have you ever been into any of the northern working men’s and Labour clubs? I certainly have and I’ve encountered FAR more homophobia there than at ANY gathering of Conservatives.

    As a Labour kind of a guy I will certainly agree with you that the Labour party is not perfect! It is very far from perfect indeed :)

    You will of course experience homophobia in working men’s clubs and Labour clubs. Years ago I remember homophobia and racism at Labour party conferences. You will also witness sectarianism and all manner of social ills expressed within the Labour party.

    The work carried out by LGBT Labour people and various ethnic and religious Labour groups from the 50s to the present day has been absolutely enormous.

    The Conservative party has not had this journey. The “U turn” alluded to by Nick Herbert is that today the Conservative party wishes to present itself as a party in favour of equality for LGBT issues, it has bought this for sell, but it remains a party whose actions work against LGBT issues.

  88. Mumbo Jumbo 18 Feb 2010, 7:45pm


    “If you’re so keen to defend Labour…”

    How do you know I’m not Lib Dem, Green, Sinn Fein, or some other pro-LGBT party voter?

    Your unimaginative assumption proves my point.

  89. theotherone 18 Feb 2010, 8:02pm

    one little thing mumbo: doesn’t Sinn Fein want to keep abortion illegal? So do you support making abortion illegal then?

    The Tories are with some fvck1ng stinkers in Europe I’ll not deny that but the argument that it dosn’t matter who Labour bed down with is stagering. Thanks to their partners in Europe Labour (who used Anti-Semitic propaganda against both callmedave and michel howerd) are one step removed from David Dunk: that’s right, leader of the KKK, Holicaust Denieing David Duke. Now to quote from this ‘Gentelman’:

    “The Zionists have used the Holocaust as a weapon to deny the rights of the Palestinians and cover up the crimes of Israel,”

    We (Whites) desire to live in our own neighborhoods, go to our own schools, work in our own cities and towns, and ultimately live as one extended family in our own nation. We shall end the racial genocide of integration. We shall work for the eventual establishment of a separate homeland for African Americans, so each race will be free to pursue its own destiny without racial conflicts and ill will

  90. Matt Sephton 18 Feb 2010, 8:07pm

    My statement on Euro groupings has no dishonesty in it at all. The new Euro grouping was created as a result of the EPP (the centre-right grouping with which the Conservatives used to sit) being committed to a federalist agenda, which the Conservatives are completely opposed to (as are the vast majority of the British public according to opinion poll after opinion poll).

    As for me not being in touch with the activities of the Conservative Party at grassroots level, if you knew ANYTHING about me you would know that this is not remotely true at all!

    The other thing that comes across in the anti-Conservative rants on these threads, quite apart from personal attacks, is that there are lots of people spouting words that come from their own PRECONCEPTIONS rather than from any sort of truth or reality. I can assure readers that I, on the other hand, speak from great experience of both regular contact with the grassroots of the Conservatives and of having lived all my life in the North of England.

    I am pleased that Patrick accepts that homophobia exists in the working men’s and Labour clubs, as I know from personal experience that that is so.

    It is for all these reasons that I continue to say how important it is for us ALL to be working together for the LGBT community and opposing homophobia where it exists rather than attacking each other. This, I must add, is something that I have NEVER taken part in and never will. It is just a big shame that those on this thread who continually make personal attacks and comments that lack any real foundation do just that.

  91. Matt Sephton 18 Feb 2010, 8:11pm

    By continually trying to divide the LGBT community in this way, those very people who say they are in favour of the LGBT equality agenda, are, in fact, working AGAINST that very cause!

  92. Interesting and honest answer from Ann Widdecombe on this matter. As she reminds us on a Christian fundamentalist radio station, Herbert’s view is not necessarily that of the Conservative party.

  93. Matt Sephton – what are you doing to keep the fanatics in the Conservative Christian Fellowship in check? I trust you heard about how CCF affilliated activists bussed in members of evangelical and pentecostal churches to vote on who would be the Conservative candidate for ultra safe Congleton? (the choiuce was between an secular and a religious candidate, and guess who won).

    The Tory party wants to open faith schools all over the place, another ludicrous policy started by Blair. (have we not learnt from the experiences of Belfast?)

  94. Ann Widdicombe uses words like ‘outburst’ to deride his views and she shows the homophobic tories are far from finished

  95. Matt Sephton 19 Feb 2010, 10:27am

    Ann Widdecombe will no longer be an MP after the election. I’m talking about the FUTURE, not the PAST, as was Nick Herbert in his speech on Washington. There are a raft of Conservative MPs who will no longer be MPs after the next election, and, as I outlined above, the Conservatives are likely to have the biggest number of openly-LGBT MPs in the House of Commons. The direction of the Conservatives is the right one and one which gives us all hope for the future.

  96. Here’s my comment – B*ll**ks – they shafted us last time they were in power they are corrupt and only out to line their own pockets – ask them why they are all so gay friendly at the moment? mmmm maybe so they can get votes from dis-enchanted labor voters who are gay? Come on people wake-up!

  97. JohnD – You mean like Labour are doing now?!

  98. Gay people voting the Tories back into power would be like Jewish people electing Hitler after the war (had he not killed himself) because he swore he’d changed and now recognised their right to existence. Absolutely insane, fundamentally self-deluding. Some crimes, such as clause 28, the malign approach to policing gay people, the sackings, the abuse, the ritual humiliations, of those years under Major and Thatcher should never, not ever, be forgiven.

  99. So it doesn’t matter that Labour are now selling out on gay issues in schools now then Andy?

  100. Matt Sephton wrote: “I’m talking about the FUTURE, not the PAST”.

    Yes, you just DREAM ON, Matt Sephton, in your own little fantasyland.

    What are you getting out of it, by the way? Feelings of importance given you by one or two cunning little Tories who are simply exploiting you to bark for them and get them a few more votes?

    Post a picture of you with all your Tory crusaders on Photobucket and provide a link to it here, please. (Yeah, that’s right, you know what I’m getting at!)

  101. We (Whites) desire to live in our own neighborhoods, go to our own schools, work in our own cities and towns, “and ultimately live as one extended family in our own nation. We shall end the racial genocide of integration. We shall work for the eventual establishment of a separate homeland for African Americans, so each race will be free to pursue its own destiny without racial conflicts “. blimey if only your ancestors left us alone we wouldn’t be here now.

  102. Sister Mary clarence 20 Feb 2010, 8:30pm

    Matt, I’m afraid you’re p!ssing in the wind here. Its like trying to override the beliefs of kids brought up in the Westboro Baptist Church. The New Labour brainwashing is set so deep, every minister in the government could get caught with their hand in the till, selling votes, or with their skiddy Y-fronts plastered all over the internet and it wouldn’t matter to them … oh blimey they have already.

  103. Elizabeth Montague-Cholmondley 21 Feb 2010, 3:04pm

    Sister Mary Clarence, I don’t know if you like me are a lover of ladies, but I can tell you that I as a long-time lover of ladies know full well which ones to avoid. And that’s basically any lady outside of London – whether she is married or not!

    Originally a countrywoman myself I know that I am only going to find liberal-minded womenfolk in London. I ache to get back to London at least once a month. All of those out there in the counties are backward-thinking paid-up members of the Women’s Institute and suchlike networks. They just can’t wait to burst into yet another chorus of “Jerusalem” and to clap hysterically at the appearance of some Tory speaker, man or woman, at their next meeting.

    I have nothing in common with them. They are STUCK in a Merchant Ivory time-warp of an England that ought to be truly over! But unfortunately, as I say, it isn’t. Not out there in the counties. Believe you me! And if you don’t then I challenge you to do some googling for lesbian fun and frolics in the English countryside. You’ll be googling for a very very long time. That kind of “perversion” is still, believe it or not, frowned upon out in sticks.

  104. FACT: David Cameron’s record on supporting LGBT equality issues is so appalling that it is one of the worst of all the sitting MPs.

    If anyone is gullible enough to believe that any party with him as a leader is capable of defending LGBT rights, then good luck to them .. because they and their crass stupidity deserve everything that comes their way.

  105. Mark – Fact – So is Gordon Browns record. Yet all seems ‘gullible enough’ to support him.

  106. Christian P 23 Feb 2010, 4:36pm

    For Squidgey:

    Squidgey, you say you’re disabled & in a wheelchair. So I suggest u arrange the transport & take you & your wheelchair to a nice disabled-friendly hotel in a Conservative town. Look up the listings & go along to some Conservative meetings. Observe how they react to u & your wheelchair & when some nice Conservative leans over to be sympathatic ask “Are there some gay people here u could introduce me to, please? I’ld like to meet some Conservative gays.” See how they respond, Squidgey.

    Then u should try the same in Labour place, or a Liberal place.

    I think that u will go off the Conservatives very quickly!

  107. lol, do you really think that I don’t suffer discimination because of my disablity? It happens a lot wherever I go. Companies treat disabled differently, yet funnily enough their all very happy to take our money.

    It’s a weak point you make ‘Christian P’. Disabled people are entitled to a vote just like everyone else you know.

    My vote this time has nothing to do with politics, like many others, it’s about getting this weak, vile current lot out.

  108. Christian P – if I was there and someone asked me, clearly I would say “Hello, your speaking to me. I’m gay and a lot of people say I’m nice… To my face anyway”

  109. It’s quite amazing how 1 small paragraph in another thread last week seems to be remembered by So many people! lol

  110. Sister Mary clarence 26 Feb 2010, 1:52am

    Squidgy, if I were you I’d take Christian’s advice. My local association dinner at Christmas is absolutely screaming. Christmas is always the best one to go to, enough alcohol that no one is disguising their sexuality.

    I would say though, it is mostly couples, so you might be best trying to drag a mate along as a partner if you’ve not got one, otherwise, at my one at least, they do their best to sit you next to someone they think might be a good match. The gay guy that organises all our social functions assumes that any single bloke coming to the dinner is (obviously) gay, so you can end of spending the night with all manner of lonely bachelors.

  111. Sister Mary Clarence yet again exhibits, for all to see, her complete lack of integrity, by spinning a complete fantasy, i.e. an utter lie.

    Her local Tory Xmas party, that is heaving with inebriated gay couples, is a fiction.

    Her promise that any man who appears without someone on his arm is automatically assumed to be gay and is therefore instantly matched with another partnerless gay man is also a fiction.

    In your sad sad dreams, Sr. Mary. In your sad sad dreams!

    Supply the name and address here of your gay organiser of your wild Tory Xmas parties. You should not shirk from doing so because, if the picture you have painted is true, you will significantly increase the membership of your ranks!

    So we all await the supply of Sr. Mary’s contact information.

  112. And, as usual, he (“Sister Mary Clarence”) has failed to provide the evidence for his wild and hysterical assertions.

    Another item for his profile.

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